Warren Moon - Hall of Famer or not?

[Honolulu Blue]

While reading Darkiller's thread on Steve Young's HOF chances (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=27100), I was inspired to do a copycat poll of the chances of one of Young's contemporaries - Warren Moon (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MoonWa00.htm).

Briefly, why he might make it:

* Counting stats are all among the league's elite
* Played for a good long time, even though he got a late start in the NFL
* Made 9 Pro Bowls
* Led a so-so Houston team to glory
* His race

And why he may not make it:

* No Front Office Bowl rings
* 3-7 playoff record
* Probably not the best QB in any one year, either based on single season stats or overall skill level (there's Montana, Elway, Young, Marino, Kelly, and any number of lesser meteors who had a good season or two)
* Played too long?

I think it's a very close case, but if I had to vote, I would have to say yes, the man should make it. But what does the rest of this crowd think?

[rkmsuf]

yes

[WSUCougar]

Well, what's interesting is that it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame and not the NFL Hall of Fame. Moon dominated the CFL for years, in addition to his later NFL success.

I think he's in, and he'd definitely get my vote.

[VPI97]

It it were the "NFL" Hall of Fame, then no...being that it's the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame, then yes.

[scooper]

Maybe not first ballot, but absolutely, yes.

9 pro bowls should get one in.

[Abe Sargent]

Maybe not first ballot, but absolutely, yes.

9 pro bowls should get one in.

So if Mike Alstott continues to get into the Pro Bowl as a FB for another couple of years or so, he'd be a Hall of Fame back? That's crazy talk.

-Anxiety

[rkmsuf]

So if Mike Alstott continues to get into the Pro Bowl as a FB for another couple of years or so, he'd be a Hall of Fame back? That's crazy talk.

-Anxiety

There's a world of difference between qb and fb but if Alstott puts up career numbers of elite fullbacks and makes 9 pro bowls then yes

[Hurst2112]

Based on Moon's Tecmo attributes and accomplishments alone, he is a lock for the H.O.F.

[sterlingice]

C'mon! Give us a #1 powder blue jersey in the HOF.

SI

[Darkiller]

Well, what's interesting is that it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame and not the NFL Hall of Fame. Moon dominated the CFL for years, in addition to his later NFL success.

I think he's in, and he'd definitely get my vote.
Good statement there.
This is the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame so he will most likely get in.

I wouldn't make him a 1st ballot HOFer though...

[cthomer5000]

Based on Moon's Tecmo attributes and accomplishments alone, he is a lock for the H.O.F.
Agreed. I think this should be valid proof for a number of players as well:

Bo Jackson
Bob Nelson (Green Bay)
Christian Okoye
Rod "God" Woodson

[cthomer5000]

It it were the "NFL" Hall of Fame, then no...being that it's the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame, then yes.
Well, yeah that's techincally true. But have we seen the Pro Football HOF inducting any CFL stars recently?

I can see using the CFL/USFL argument for some guys, but I think until we actually see it work we can't really bank on it.

[HornedFrog Purple]

C'mon! Give us a #1 powder blue jersey in the HOF.

SI

I hope they have the old prints of the Oilers jersey. Luv ya Blue!

I would vote him in but I'm biased as he was one of my favorite players ever.

[Ryche]

Ranked 3rd all time in passing yards, attempts and completions and 5th in passing touchdowns. And that's after playing his first 6 seasons in the CFL. If the NFL hadn't been so against black quarterbacks when he came out of college, he'd be right there with Marino in the record books.

How can he not be first ballot Hall of Fame?

[Aylmar]

Agreed. I think this should be valid proof for a number of players as well:

Bo Jackson
Bob Nelson (Green Bay)
Christian Okoye
Rod "God" Woodson

Woodson is a lock, IMO. First ballot. Made the 75th anniversary team and has done nothing since that time but enhance his reputation. Woodson is one of those rare athletes (like Jordan) that are able to take their games to another level with their intelligence once the physical skills start to fade. Sure, he had to move to safety, but he's one of the most (for lack of a better term) ball-smart guys I've ever seen.

Better stop now...I think my bias is showing. :)

[Dutch]

Mike Alstott is in an intersting debate.

He's got great rushing numbers for a FB. But.....rushing is the job of the RB, and as a RB, Mike Alstott doesn't cut it for HOF.

As a FB, nobody has ever said the guy was a great FB in the true sense of the position.

[Hurst2112]

Woodson is a lock, IMO. First ballot. Made the 75th anniversary team and has done nothing since that time but enhance his reputation. Woodson is one of those rare athletes (like Jordan) that are able to take their games to another level with their intelligence once the physical skills start to fade. Sure, he had to move to safety, but he's one of the most (for lack of a better term) ball-smart guys I've ever seen.

Better stop now...I think my bias is showing. :)

Bias schmias...I feel the exact same way. It hurt when he left the Steelers but I was glad he finally got a SB ring.

One of the most outrageous things he did was come back from an ACL (or was it an MCL) injury in the same year. Granted, he wasn't ever as fast as he was before the injury but considering he was able to play in the super bowl that year, and had 9 years of playing left after that was truely amazing.

[Aylmar]

One of the most outrageous things he did was come back from an ACL (or was it an MCL) injury in the same year. Granted, he wasn't ever as fast as he was before the injury but considering he was able to play in the super bowl that year, and had 9 years of playing left after that was truely amazing.

He tore his ACL in week one that season. One of my favorite moments in that Super Bowl was Woodson blanketing Irvin on an out route. After the ball flew by, Woodson bounces up and down in front of Irvin and points at his own knee. Classic Hot Rod.

[Hurst2112]

Yes, I was thinking about that play when I wrote my last post. Right on

[SFL Cat]

He tore his ACL in week one that season. One of my favorite moments in that Super Bowl was Woodson blanketing Irvin on an out route. After the ball flew by, Woodson bounces up and down in front of Irvin and points at his own knee. Classic Hot Rod.

Just FYI, SB XXX -- COWBOYS 27; STEELERS 17 :cool:

You can call it the "Pro Football Hall of Fame," but let's face it...it's the NFL Hall of Fame. No CFL team could come close to competing with a NFL team (unless maybe they were allowed to keep that 12th guy on the field), so despite Moon's achievements there, that alone doesn't warrant his induction. I see Moon as a Jeff George kinda guy -- had a big arm and always put up fairly decent numbers, but was never able to win the big one. Although I do see him going to Canton eventually, it won't be anytime soon...definitely won't be on the first ballot.

[MikeVic]

Just FYI, SB XXX -- COWBOYS 27; STEELERS 17 :cool:

You can call it the "Pro Football Hall of Fame," but let's face it...it's the NFL Hall of Fame. No CFL team could come close to competing with a NFL team (unless maybe they were allowed to keep that 12th guy on the field), so despite Moon's achievements there, that alone doesn't warrant his induction. I see Moon as a Jeff George kinda guy -- had a big arm and always put up fairly decent numbers, but was never able to win the big one. Although I do see him going to Canton eventually, it won't be anytime soon...definitely won't be on the first ballot.

:eek: I don't agree with you on comparing Jeff George with Warren Moon... I don't think they're even close.. I don't know if I'm off here or what... but if you count his CFL and NFL stats combined (which the Pro Football HOF does I believe), doesn't Moon rank in the top 3 in a lot of categories?

[oykib]

Yes. I'd vote him in on the first ballot. It's clear that he'd have nearly equivalent NFL stats to Marino if he'd been white. He wasn't as good as Marino. But I think he was better than Kelly (Name the Hall of Famer in Moon's backfield or whom Moon could throw to).

[SFL Cat]

Yes. I'd vote him in on the first ballot. It's clear that he'd have nearly equivalent NFL stats to Marino if he'd been white. He wasn't as good as Marino. But I think he was better than Kelly (Name the Hall of Famer in Moon's backfield or whom Moon could throw to).

How in the hell can you even think something like that, let alone type it? Say what you want about Kelly, but he and the Bills went to the Super Bowl 4 consecutive times...that's four more times than Moon ever took the Oilers (or any of the other teams he played for during his journeyman years toward the end of his career) to the big one.

If you want to count CFL production, then I guess that makes Doug Flutie a HOFer too.

[MikeVic]

Just to follow up on my attempt to point Moon's stats as being awesome:

Most Yards Passing in Pro Football:
Warren Moon (70,325 yards)
Dan Marino (61,361)
John Elway (51,475)
Damon Allen (50,789)
Ron Lancaster (50,535)

I got that from: http://www.chargers.com/team/roster_details.cfm?last_name=Flutie&first_name=Doug

Seems correct...

[SFL Cat]

Gee...maybe CFLers Warren, Damon and Ron will all go in together!!! :rolleyes:

[MikeVic]

Gee...maybe CFLers Warren, Damon and Ron will all go in together!!! :rolleyes:

Isn't this the PRO football HOF? Isn't there another separate NFL HOF? I think people shouldn't be judged based on whether they played in the CFL or NFL if they are both "Pro Football." The NFL doesn't accept Damon Allen, but it doesn't mean the Pro Football HOF can't.

[Ryche]

but if you count his CFL and NFL stats combined (which the Pro Football HOF does I believe), doesn't Moon rank in the top 3 in a lot of categories?

He is in the top 3 statwise even without the CFL stats.

[SFL Cat]

He is in the top 3 statwise even without the CFL stats.

Unfortunately his career QB rating isn't even in the top 20

[Ragone]

Based on Moon's Tecmo attributes and accomplishments alone, he is a lock for the H.O.F.


Man if that was the case.. David Fulcher would have his own wing in canton

[SFL Cat]

Isn't Moon already in the CFL Hall of Fame?

[Fritz]

The Pro football hall of fame is called that because of the leagues that the NFL absorbed. Think of it as pro US football.

Dont argue a guy's merit based on the title of the building.

That said, I put moon in. when depends entirely on who else is being looked at.

[SFL Cat]

Two things -- First, I'm sorry, but talent-wise, the CFL is more on par with NFLe than the NFL. Second, the CFL game is also slanted toward passing. It has to be with only 3 downs to make 10 yards for a first and the longer, wider field.

I'll give Moon credit, he passed for a lot of yards in the run-and-shoot in Houston, but I think part of the HOF equation is taking your team to a championship. If Dan Marino didn't own just about every passing record in the NFL, I think that fact would hurt him too (even though he does have at least one SB appearance compared to Moon's zip).
When he retired, Fran Tarkenton owned most of the NFL passing records. Although he's did finally make it to Canton, it didn't happen until about 10 years after he retired. I think Moon has a similar wait. He's not a first ballot guy IMO.

[oykib]

How in the hell can you even think something like that, let alone type it? Say what you want about Kelly, but he and the Bills went to the Super Bowl 4 consecutive times...that's four more times than Moon ever took the Oilers (or any of the other teams he played for during his journeyman years toward the end of his career) to the big one.

If you want to count CFL production, then I guess that makes Doug Flutie a HOFer too.

Jim Kelly had a great supporting cast (actually, I think Thurman was better than him and Bruce Smih certainly was) . Warren Moon had immense talent and a Mickey Mouse offense that somewhat padded his stats.

In his prime ten year stretch Moon went to the Pro Bowl nine times. I was in Buffalo during a lot of those Kelly years. I got to see him every Sunday. My judgement is that Moon wa better. Your free to mak your own call. But the facts speak for themselves:

Jim Kelly
Quarterback
Born: 1960
4-time Pro Bowler: 1987, 1990, 1991, 1992

Game-by-game data | 1995 | 1996 |


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1986 buf | 16 | 285 480 59.4 3593 7.5 22 17 | 41 199 0 |
| 1987 buf | 12 | 250 419 59.7 2798 6.7 19 11 | 29 133 0 |
| 1988 buf | 16 | 269 452 59.5 3380 7.5 15 17 | 35 154 0 |
| 1989 buf | 13 | 228 391 58.3 3130 8.0 25 18 | 29 137 2 |
| 1990 buf | 14 | 219 346 63.3 2829 8.2 24 9 | 22 63 0 |
| 1991 buf | 15 | 304 474 64.1 3844 8.1 33 17 | 20 45 1 |
| 1992 buf | 16 | 269 462 58.2 3457 7.5 23 19 | 31 53 1 |
| 1993 buf | 16 | 288 470 61.3 3382 7.2 18 18 | 36 102 0 |
| 1994 buf | 14 | 285 448 63.6 3114 7.0 22 17 | 25 77 1 |
| 1995 buf | 15 | 255 458 55.7 3130 6.8 22 13 | 17 20 0 |
| 1996 buf | 13 | 222 379 58.6 2810 7.4 14 19 | 19 66 2 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 160 | 2874 4779 60.1 35467 7.4 237 175 | 304 1049 7 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

Seasons among the league's top 10
Pass attempts: 1986-8, 1987-4, 1988-8, 1991-9, 1992-6, 1993-7
Completions: 1986-4, 1987-4, 1988-6, 1991-4, 1992-5t, 1993-5t, 1994-10
Passing yards: 1986-6, 1987-8, 1988-6, 1991-3, 1992-3, 1993-5
Passing TDs: 1986-5t, 1987-8t, 1989-5, 1990-4t, 1991-1, 1992-3t, 1993-6t, 1994-6t, 1995-10
Adjusted yards per pass: 1986-9, 1989-6, 1990-3, 1991-3

Among the league's all-time top 50
Pass attempts: 16
Completions: 13t
Passing yards: 13
Passing TDs: 15

Postseason data
Please read this fine print before using this data or sending questions or corrections.


Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
1988 hou W,17-10 | 19 33 244 0 1 | 3 18 0
1988 cin L,10-21 | 14 30 163 1 3 | 2 10 0
1989 cle L,30-34 | 28 54 405 3 2 | 1 5 0
1990 mia W,44-34 | 19 29 339 3 1 | 5 37 0
1990 rai W,51-3 | 17 23 300 2 1 | 2 12 0
*1990 nyg L,19-20 | 18 30 212 0 0 | 6 23 0
1991 kan W,37-14 | 23 35 273 3 3 | 1 2 0
1991 den W,10-7 | 13 25 117 0 2 | 2 9 0
*1991 was L,24-37 | 28 58 275 2 4 | 3 16 0
1992 mia W,29-10 | 17 24 177 1 2 | 3 4 0
*1992 dal L,17-52 | 4 7 82 0 2 | 0 0 0
1993 rai W,29-23 | 27 37 287 2 0 | 5 -5 0
1993 kan W,30-13 | 17 27 160 0 0 | 2 3 0
*1993 dal L,13-30 | 31 50 260 0 1 | 2 12 0
1995 mia W,37-22 | 12 22 195 1 2 | 3 -3 0
1995 pit L,21-40 | 14 29 135 1 3 | 0 0 0
1996 jax L,27-30 | 21 32 239 1 1 | 4 18 0
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 322 545 3863 20 28 | 44 161 0

* - Super Bowl

Warren Moon
Quarterback
Born: 1956
9-time Pro Bowler: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997

Game-by-game data | 1995 | 1996 | 1997 | 1998 | 1999 | 2000 |


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1984 hou | 16 | 259 450 57.6 3338 7.4 12 14 | 58 211 1 |
| 1985 hou | 14 | 200 377 53.1 2709 7.2 15 19 | 39 130 0 |
| 1986 hou | 15 | 256 488 52.5 3489 7.1 13 26 | 42 157 2 |
| 1987 hou | 12 | 184 368 50.0 2806 7.6 21 18 | 34 112 3 |
| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |
| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |
| 1990 hou | 15 | 362 584 62.0 4689 8.0 33 13 | 55 215 2 |
| 1991 hou | 16 | 404 655 61.7 4690 7.2 23 21 | 33 68 2 |
| 1992 hou | 11 | 224 346 64.7 2521 7.3 18 12 | 27 147 1 |
| 1993 hou | 15 | 303 520 58.3 3485 6.7 21 21 | 48 145 1 |
| 1994 min | 15 | 371 601 61.7 4264 7.1 18 19 | 27 55 0 |
| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |
| 1996 min | 8 | 134 247 54.3 1610 6.5 7 9 | 9 6 0 |
| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |
| 1998 sea | 10 | 145 258 56.2 1632 6.3 11 8 | 16 10 0 |
| 1999 kan | 1 | 1 3 33.3 20 6.7 0 0 | 0 0 0 |
| 2000 kan | 2 | 15 34 44.1 208 6.1 1 1 | 2 2 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 208 | 3988 6823 58.4 49325 7.2 291 233 | 543 1736 22 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

Seasons among the league's top 10
Pass attempts: 1984-9, 1986-6, 1990-1, 1991-1, 1993-3, 1994-3, 1995-2, 1997-2
Completions: 1984-10t, 1989-8t, 1990-1, 1991-1, 1993-4, 1994-3, 1995-1, 1997-3
Passing yards: 1984-10, 1986-7, 1987-7, 1989-5, 1990-1, 1991-1, 1993-3, 1994-3, 1995-3, 1997-5
Passing TDs: 1987-7, 1989-7, 1990-1, 1991-5, 1992-8t, 1993-4, 1994-9, 1995-2, 1997-5
Adjusted yards per pass: 1988-3, 1989-5, 1990-4

Among the league's all-time top 50
Pass attempts: 3
Completions: 3
Passing yards: 3
Passing TDs: 5

Postseason data
Please read this fine print before using this data or sending questions or corrections.


Year Opp Result | CMP ATT PYD PTD INT | RSH YD TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
1987 sea W,23-20 | 21 32 237 1 1 | 4 -2 0
1987 den L,10-34 | 24 43 264 1 2 | 5 15 0
1988 cle W,24-23 | 16 26 213 1 3 | 6 16 0
1988 buf L,10-17 | 17 33 240 0 1 | 5 11 0
1989 pit L,23-26 | 29 48 315 2 0 | 3 12 0
1991 nyj W,17-10 | 28 40 271 2 1 | 3 6 0
1991 den L,24-26 | 27 36 325 3 1 | 2 18 0
1992 buf L,38-41 | 36 50 371 4 2 | 2 7 0
1993 kan L,20-28 | 32 43 306 1 1 | 3 22 0
1994 chi L,18-35 | 29 52 292 2 2 | 2 9 0
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
TOTAL | 259 403 2834 17 14 | 35 114 0


In his prime Moon missed the Pro Bowl once-- after the 1996 season, due to injury. Kelly was his contemporary. They both missed NFL time playing in another league. But Moon, though born four yers earlier, remained effective much longer. There's really no comparison. Moon went to more than twice as many Pro Bowls.

Had Moon been in Buffalo, he'd have gone to the same Super Bowls that Kelly went to. Had Kelly been in Houston, I don't believe he'd have put up the same numbers.

[JeffNights]

While reading Darkiller's thread on Steve Young's HOF chances (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=27100), I was inspired to do a copycat poll of the chances of one of Young's contemporaries - Warren Moon (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MoonWa00.htm).


And why he may not make it:

* No Front Office Bowl rings



Hmmm.....I dont think the fact that he lacks a FRONT OFFICE BOWL RING, will be held agianst him.....

[Hurst2112]

http://membres.lycos.fr/frontofficefoot/career_real49ersfoot2.htm

[Ryche]

Unfortunately his career QB rating isn't even in the top 20

I bet his QB rating is a lot higher than Elway's.

After thinking about it more, he probably won't be in there on the first ballot. But he deserves to be. He's at least as good as Jim Kelly was, but he never had a running back like Thurman Thomas or a defense led by Bruce Smith.

[mckerney]

I might be wrong, but I don't believe that the Pro Football Hall of Fame takes accomplishments in the CFL into account. I think I remember hearing once in reference to some player who had played in Canada that it his CFL career wouldn't be taken into account because the HOF was for American Football, noting that the CFL had their own hall of fame.

[Taur]

Fine, I will be the real world reality check.

Warren Moon will be voted into the Pro Football hall of fame on his first attempt for the same reason he played in Canada. He is A Black Quarterback.

After last years Rush Limbaugh issue, you can look forward again to all the black activitist to once again rally to blame the NFL for not allowing Moon to play in the NFL during his early years. "keeping the man down"

Should Warren Moon be a first time inductee? No.
Will the Black QB Warren Moon be a first time Inductee? Yes.


Edited: Fine, I would also Question his 9 Pro Bowl appearances....Just how many of those Pro Bowls was he the alternate for? (not voted in, but simply a filler for another QB who chose not to attend)

[Darkiller]

Well as much as you can't deny the fact that he has the numbers...that he has made 9 Pro Bowl (??? wow how did he do that ? I never remembered him as being a top of the pops QB, I mean, not 9 times !!)

I wouldn't vote him in the HOF right away because :

- he' never been a "dominant" player in the league, like when you can say at some point: "this season, that guy's the #1 QB in the NFL, no question".
No, never had that for Warren Moon.

- only 3 Playoff wins in his outstandingly long NFL career...for someone who's been a starter for such a long time, notching only 3 post-season wins is really not a lot...

- has never won a SuperBowl or even come close to doing so (how many Conference Championship game appearances ?)

- killed the NFC's chances in the 1998 Pro Bowl with a fumble in the 4th quarter that gave the win to the AFC squad. I was mad at him cuz in that game, Steve Young was the NFC's starting QB and had thrown 2 TDs and over 200 yards in less than a quarter and a half and would have been the Pro Bowl MVP had the NFC kept the score...bastard. :D

- Talking about MVPs, how many (or any) did Warren Moon get ? since we're comparing HOF caliber QBs, Young had two NFL MVPs and one SuperBowl MVP for himself...aside from the seven straight ProBowls and 6 NFL Passing Titles.

[Aylmar]

Just FYI, SB XXX -- COWBOYS 27; STEELERS 17

Yes, congrats to the Cowboys for actually beating the Steelers in a Super Bowl. Only took three tries...and they had to get two gift-wrapped interceptions in order to win that one. ;)

[Taur]

Yes, congrats to the Cowboys for actually beating the Steelers in a Super Bowl. Only took three tries...and they had to get two gift-wrapped interceptions in order to win that one. ;)
The 3 biggest scandals in professional sports.

1) The BlackSocks and ShoeLess Joe Jackson.
2) Michael Jordan's 18 month suspension for betting on Basketball.
3) Neil O'Donnell throwing the SuperBowl.

[oykib]

Well as much as you can't deny the fact that he has the numbers...that he has made 9 Pro Bowl (??? wow how did he do that ? I never remembered him as being a top of the pops QB, I mean, not 9 times !!)

I wouldn't vote him in the HOF right away because :

- he' never been a "dominant" player in the league, like when you can say at some point: "this season, that guy's the #1 QB in the NFL, no question".
No, never had that for Warren Moon.

- only 3 Playoff wins in his outstandingly long NFL career...for someone who's been a starter for such a long time, notching only 3 post-season wins is really not a lot...

- has never won a SuperBowl or even come close to doing so (how many Conference Championship game appearances ?)

- killed the NFC's chances in the 1998 Pro Bowl with a fumble in the 4th quarter that gave the win to the AFC squad. I was mad at him cuz in that game, Steve Young was the NFC's starting QB and had thrown 2 TDs and over 200 yards in less than a quarter and a half and would have been the Pro Bowl MVP had the NFC kept the score...bastard. :D

- Talking about MVPs, how many (or any) did Warren Moon get ? since we're comparing HOF caliber QBs, Young had two NFL MVPs and one SuperBowl MVP for himself...aside from the seven straight ProBowls and 6 NFL Passing Titles.



This sounds like a baseball debate from 1975. I don't realy care that much about what poeple thought about a player when we have solid numbers available. Moon's numbers aremuch closer to Dan Marino and John Elways numbers than Jim Kelly's.

I agree with you that Steve Young was a superior QB. But how much of that was the coach, how much the system, and how much the supporting cast. Off the top of your head can you name the Hall of Famer on the team at the same time as Moon? Let's list the best players that each of these QBs played with during his prime (Pro Bowl appearances in parentheses, likely HoFer in italics).

RB
Marino: ???
Elway: Terrell Davis (3)
Kelly: Thurman Thomas (5)
Moon: Lorenzo White (1)
Young: Ricky Watters (5 - borderline HoFer)

WR or TE
Marino: Mark Clayton (5) or Irving Fryar (5)
Elway: Shannon Sharpe (8) or Anthony Miller (5)
Kelly: Andre Reed (7 - although his numbers really only justify four or five)
Moon: Haywood Jeffries (3)
Young: The Greatest Football Player to Ever Lace up a Pair of Cleats (13) also Terrel Owens (4), Brent Jones (4)

Top defensive player
Marino: Bob Baumhower (5), John Offerdahl (5), Zach Thomas (4), Bryan Cox (3), or Sam Madison (3)
Elway: Steve Atwater (8), Karl Mecklenberg (6), Dennis Smith (6), Louis Wright (5), or Trevor Pryce (4)
Kelly: Bruce Smith (11), Steve Tasker (7-special teams), or Cornelius Bennet (5)
Moon: Ray Childress (5) or William Fuller (4)
Young: Deion Sanders (8), Charles Haley (5), Merton Hanks (4), Dana Stubblefield (3), or Bryant Young (4)

Head Coach:
Marino: Don Shula or Jimmy Johnson
Elway: Dan Reeves or Mike Shannahan
Kelly: Marv Levy
Moon: Jack Pardee or Dennis Green
Young: Bill Walsh also George Siefert

QBs can only win MVPs if their team wins. And they can only win with a supporting cast. But looking at Moon's numbers and comparing them to whom he was surrounded by you can clearly see how well he played.

[Darkiller]

well, i won't disagree with your statements at all.
If Moon ends up in the Hall of Fame on the 1st ballot, I won't have anything bad to say about it. It's just that I feel some other contemporary QBs should be in as well, maybe before he goes.

[JeeberD]

3) Neil O'Donnell throwing the SuperBowl.

:rolleyes:

[oykib]

well, i won't disagree with your statements at all.
If Moon ends up in the Hall of Fame on the 1st ballot, I won't have anything bad to say about it. It's just that I feel some other contemporary QBs should be in as well, maybe before he goes.

Of his contemporaries, Montana, Marino, Elway, Elway, and possibly Young should get in before him.

I don't make distinctions between first ballot and later HoFers. Perhaps Moon isn't first ballot if at least four of his contemporaries deserve to get in before him and you care about that. But he's definitely in.

[Passacaglia]

Off the top of your head can you name the Hall of Famer on the team at the same time as Moon?

Bruce Matthews?

[Hurst2112]

Off the top of your head can you name the Hall of Famer on the team at the same time as Moon?

Earl Campbell

EDIT: I was gonna say Mike Munchak (hehe) but I remembered Moon's first year as an oiler had Campbell in the backfield

[mckerney]

I really don't think that no Super Bowl Championships should be what determines wheter a guy like Moon gets into the hall of fame. It takes more than a QB to win a championship. I'd take a ringless Dan Marino over many QBs who have won Super Bowls.

[mckerney]

Dola:

And as far as HOFers that Moon played with, he did play with Cris Carter, John Randle, and Randall McDaniel in Minnesota.

[rkmsuf]

Dola:

And as far as HOFers that Moon played with, he did play with Cris Carter, John Randle, and Randall McDaniel in Minnesota.

As far as I can tell none of those guys are in the HOF

[mckerney]

As far as I can tell none of those guys are in the HOF

Not currently, but Carter and McDaniel are considered locks for the hall, and Randle has a good chance.

[sterlingice]

At running back, Mike Rozier had a couple of decent years for Houston and Gary Brown had his one good year before he was never heard from again.

For receivers, Earnest Givins, Drew Hill, Webster Slaughter, and Curtis Duncan put up good stats at one point or another. Tho, you could argue that was a product of that system.

And, as mentioned before in this thread, Mike Munchak and Bruce Matthews who each had a bunch of Pro Bowls between them were always in front of Moon.

SI

[Passacaglia]

Mike Rozier was awesome, in APBA 1990.

[digamma]

I guess I don't follow the "he should be in the Hall of Fame, but not on the first ballot" line of reasoning.

I suppose it could be peculiar to the NFL Hall election structure where a certain minimum and a certain maximum make the Hall each year--and if Moon were up against a particularly strong class, one might say that he didn't deserve it over x, y and z, but next year when he is up against p, q and r he should get in.

I haven't seen anyone make that argument though, and instead, it seems people are treating being elected on the first ballot as a higher standard than being elected at all. To me, someone either belongs in the Hall or they don't. I can't think of anything that would make me say I'm not going to vote for this guy this year because he's not on the first ballot, but next year I will. It just doesn't make sense to me. What makes him worthy next year? Do we need a First Ballot Hall of Fame and a regular Hall of Fame?

For the record, I think Warren Moon probably belongs in the Hall of Fame.