Which North American professional sport most lends itself to a relegation system?

[digamma]

I've always been intrigued by the English leagues' use of promotion and relegation. So the natural question: Of the four major North American professional sports, which would best fit into an English soccer-type relegation system?

I think my vote would go to basketball, for the following reasons (mainly economic)...
--only requires 12 players per team
--cheapest in terms of equipment
--teams only have to fill 12-17K seat arenas, not 50K seat stadiums

Could a relegation/promotion league work in the US?

[NoMyths]

Jai Lai.

Edit: Bah, "four major." That's no fun. I'd say hockey.

[Samdari]

Well, since baseball has a tiered system of leagues in place, how can it not be this?

[digamma]

Well, since baseball has a tiered system of leagues in place, how can it not be this?
I think the affiliations with the major league teams adds some difficulties, but the argument that baseball would be the easiest to implement such a system is compelling.

[Ksyrup]

I vote tourT!

[digamma]

I vote tourT!
So much for trying to spell Trout backwards...

[clintl]

None of them. Relegation would not work in the US because such a big investment is required to purchase a major league franchise in the first place. No owner in any of the sports is going to place that investment into jeopardy by moving to a system where one bad season can relegate it to minor league status. Plus, as has been noted, baseball would be impossible because of the minor league affiliate system. Same goes for hockey.

[clintl]

Dola...

For those arguing baseball would be easiest, please note that the typical AAA stadium holds about 15,000. The facilities just do not exist to make relegation in baseball feasible. It would be far easier to have one for any of the other sports because of the abundance of suitable college stadiums and arenas that could be leased.

[Ksyrup]

So much for trying to spell Trout backwards...I don't know what you're talking about - tourT has no affiliation with Trout. http://www.kingsxonline.com/KXRocks/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:emoticon('<img%20src=&quot;../forums/images/smilies/cool.gif&quot;%20border=&quot;0&quot;%20alt=&quot;&quot;%20title=&quot;cool&quot;%20smilieid=&quot;7&quot;%20class=&quot;inlineimg&quot;%20/>'))

[Fonzie]

Dola...

For those arguing baseball would be easiest, please note that the typical AAA stadium holds about 15,000. The facilities just do not exist to make relegation in baseball feasible. It would be far easier to have one for any of the other sports because of the abundance of suitable college stadiums and arenas that could be leased.

I would think that the AAA teams that promote could just rent big stadiums as well, if they need to.

[Ksyrup]

"Just rent"...? As in, call up the local tent people and have them bring down a big, inflatable baseball stadium to stick in a parking lot somewhere? How can you "just rent" something that doesn't exist?

Unless you're suggesting that teams move to cities with stadiums, meaning that you'd essentially have baseball exactly where it is right now, plusd a few other places that decide to build a stadium on the off-chance they can draw a team (like Tampa did in the 80's), but the teams would change every few years, depending on the fortunes of those teams. And that makes no sense at all.

[Fonzie]

"Just rent"...? As in, call up the local tent people and have them bring down a big, inflatable baseball stadium to stick in a parking lot somewhere? How can you "just rent" something that doesn't exist?

Of course that's not what I was saying. I was trying to suggest that it might be possible to rent some college football stadiums and modify them to play baseball part of the year. I'm not talking about the giant, all-concrete stadiums of the Big-10 here, but rather the more moderately-sized stadiums that have the potential for moving some of the stands back a bit to accomodate a baseball field.

I do agree that there would be logistical problems with implementing the stadium rental plan, and wasn't intending to promote it as an optimal solution. It would probably be more costly to the promoting AAA teams than simply expanding their existing stadia with the "big-league" money they earn from increased attendance, TV revenues, licensing, and a presumed promotion "bonus."

[Desnudo]

The Clippers should have been relegated to the CBL years ago.

[Honolulu Blue]

Ah yes, a subject after my own heart. I tried out the Vincent Memorial League (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=12558&highlight=vincent) to try out the relegation concept using OOTP and baseball. It worked fairly well, stretching the game's customizability to its limits.

Of course, it's much easier to do this in a game than in real life. I doubt that any current major league owner would prefer such a league setup. But if the MLB falls apart because the "haves" are too dominant over the "have nots", you might get something like relegation.

[Desnudo]

Any promotion/relegation system would initially create discomfort for the major teams. Personally I think hockey is the ripest for a system. Some AHL teams have rinks near the size of NHL standards and it's also the least popular of the four major sports. Add in its financial difficulties and I see a league that really could use the boost of interest such a system would provide.

[Karim]

We're also assuming that current pro-teams form the first/premiere division. Maybe 30 teams is too many? Cut the league in half and the bottom 15 form the 2nd Division. Only the top 15 teams in say baseball, can compete for the World Series. Because North America is unique, the bottom of the 2nd Division doesn't get demoted, only the bottom 1 or 2 of the 1st division. Affiliations don't change and "minor league" teams are never promoted.

[Fonzie]

We're also assuming that current pro-teams form the first/premiere division. Maybe 30 teams is too many? Cut the league in half and the bottom 15 form the 2nd Division. Only the top 15 teams in say baseball, can compete for the World Series. Because North America is unique, the bottom of the 2nd Division doesn't get demoted, only the bottom 1 or 2 of the 1st division. Affiliations don't change and "minor league" teams are never promoted.

That's a great way to incorporate relegation/promotion into MLB.

[clintl]

Of course that's not what I was saying. I was trying to suggest that it might be possible to rent some college football stadiums and modify them to play baseball part of the year. I'm not talking about the giant, all-concrete stadiums of the Big-10 here, but rather the more moderately-sized stadiums that have the potential for moving some of the stands back a bit to accomodate a baseball field.


You should go read about what it was like for the Dodgers to play in the LA Coliseum in their first couple of years in Los Angeles, or what AAA ball was like in Sacramento's Hughes Stadium in the mid-70s if you really think that adapting a football stadium to baseball use is a feasible idea.

[JeeberD]

Watching baseball in Mile High was great fun. That 320 down the left field line was awesome... :)

[SackAttack]

relegation/promotion in baseball would never work, even under the idea listed.

First of all, by doing that, you concentrate the balance of power in the hands of the 15 or so teams that stay in the 1st division. Major players aren't going to want to play in the 2nd division, so that makes it much harder for 2nd division teams to compete in terms of free agency and such. Promotion would very likely be a 1 or 2 year thing, unless such teams were phenomenal drafters (we would still have the draft, right?), whereupon they'd find themselves right back in the second division.

Put another way - you think people gripe about the Yankees' success now? Imagine what it might be like after 4 or 5 years of having to beat only 7 teams to gain a World Series berth. Yeah, that's right, we'd be back to one-division play with no wild cards.

Unless what you had in mind was just a single 15 team division, with the top two teams facing each other in a playoff for the World Series championship...and that would utterly destroy any remaining semblance of tradition.

[clintl]

We're also assuming that current pro-teams form the first/premiere division. Maybe 30 teams is too many? Cut the league in half and the bottom 15 form the 2nd Division. Only the top 15 teams in say baseball, can compete for the World Series. Because North America is unique, the bottom of the 2nd Division doesn't get demoted, only the bottom 1 or 2 of the 1st division. Affiliations don't change and "minor league" teams are never promoted.

If you really wanted to kill all interest in MLB's small markets, that would be a tremendously effective way to do it.

[SackAttack]

You should go read about what it was like for the Dodgers to play in the LA Coliseum in their first couple of years in Los Angeles, or what AAA ball was like in Sacramento's Hughes Stadium in the mid-70s if you really think that adapting a football stadium to baseball use is a feasible idea.

Worked for the Dodgers. I believe they still hold the MLB single-game attendance record of around 90,000. If you put a competitive team in a place like that, and there's a genuine buzz surrounding that team it can work.

Of course, if you're the Florida Marlins, sharing a park with the Miami Dolphins (or the A's sharing a stadium with the Raiders), it's not quite so much fun.

[ScottVib]

I'd say Hockey would be the easiest for a true promotion/relegation system. The lockout providing the mechanism to unhinge the minors from the NHL teams.. and just going the promo/relegation route with the WHA/AHL/etc franchises.

The way the WHA finances are set they wouldn't be cost prohibitive for the AHL franchises (some of whom are in bigger markets). Furthermore most of the arenas the teams play in are somewhat comparable attendence-wise.

Hockey IMO would be the sport, if any NA sport could/should try it, to do it.

[Ksyrup]

If you really wanted to kill all interest in MLB's small markets, that would be a tremendously effective way to do it.
Exactly. You think attendance in Miami and Tampa is bad now? Just wait until they're told their teams are the equivalent to AAAA teams. Woo-hoo, let's go to the ballpark! Maybe one day this team will be good enough...to join the league they were in before this system was put into place...?

[clintl]

Worked for the Dodgers. I believe they still hold the MLB single-game attendance record of around 90,000. If you put a competitive team in a place like that, and there's a genuine buzz surrounding that team it can work.

Of course, if you're the Florida Marlins, sharing a park with the Miami Dolphins (or the A's sharing a stadium with the Raiders), it's not quite so much fun.

Sure, there were a lot of seats, but it was a terrible baseball park. The other parks you mention, in Oakland and Miami, were designed from the start with the idea that they could be configured for baseball. What college football stadiums could you say that about? And furthermore, of the ones that exist, how many exist in markets that would be economically feasible for MLB?

[Radii]

Yeah, that's right, we'd be back to one-division play with no wild cards.


And all of a sudden, an interesting topic spits out an idea that I would personally kill to help make happen.

Aren't the issues we're talking about here(it's usually a 1-2 year thing, AAA teams don't have the stadia to compete at the major league level) the exact same situation that Division 1 teams in England face trying to anchor into the Premeir league? Of course it'll never happen, but I think knocking a few teams out of the majors(if not a wholesale change to the league structure, creating a 15-20 team Major League and then making AAA the top AAA teams + the devil rays, etc(the crap of the majors now) could create a truly great major league and a pretty high quality "Division 1"... i'd love to see it, a great pipe dream.

[clintl]

What makes relegation appealing in the first place? I'm glad none of our sports have it.

[digamma]

What makes relegation appealing in the first place? I'm glad none of our sports have it.
It adds meaning to the whole season for teams that are eliminated, say, 50 games into a baseball season or 30 games into a basketball season.

[clintl]

In 1996, depending on the rules, the Giants could have been a relegation candidate. Do you really think it would have improved the game to have its best player playing AAAA baseball? Or for the Giants not to have had the chance to win the NL West title in 1997, which they did do?

[Franklinnoble]

In 1996, depending on the rules, the Giants could have been a relegation candidate. Do you really think it would have improved the game to have its best player playing AAAA baseball? Or for the Giants not to have had the chance to win the NL West title in 1997, which they did do?
Yeah, but they weren't good enough to win the series anyway, so what's the big loss?

I think if relegation happened, there would have to be a lot of adjustments to the collective bargaining agreement.

Regardless, it'll never happen...

[digamma]

Regardless, it'll never happen...
Exactly. It's a thought exercise. Nothing more. Nothing less.