What do y'all think of this?

[Ben E Lou]

This (http://www.mindwipesports.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=16&t=2273&) was brought to my attention this morning, and my opinion asked. My gut reaction is that it would likely end up being a bunch of cut-and-pasting of stuff already in the reference thread. I'm all for anything that helps the FOF community, and the text sim world in general. However, I'd hate for this guy to waste his time and energy on something that might just end up a duplication of efforts. What do y'all think?

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

For those too lazy to clink the link, here's the post:

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=posthead vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=posthead>Posted on Jun 28 2004, 09:55 PM</TD><TD class=posthead align=right>http://www.mindwipesports.net/forums/style_images/1/p_quote.gif (http://www.mindwipesports.net/forums/index.php?act=Post&CODE=06&f=16&t=2273&p=12962)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=post2 vAlign=top>http://www.mindwipesports.net/forums/uploads/av-79.jpg

Peter Griffin
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Group: Members
Posts: 179
Member No.: 79
Joined: 1-May 04


http://www.mindwipesports.net/forums/style_images/1/spacer.gif
</TD><TD class=post2 vAlign=top width="100%">I'll get straight to the point. This is a great game. I believe it needs a web site to complement it as a great game. As of now, there is only FOF Central (http://www.sportplanet.com/fof/). However, this site is outdated and the forum seems to be off FOF topic nearly all the time. I feel people need a site to ask and answer questions solely about FOF. An all-encompassing FOF site so to speak.

I've kicked this idea around a bit, but want all of your input. I am considering creating a new site, something like www.fofworld.com or a name yet to be determined. This site would be a nice looking, informative web site about FOF. It would stay up to date and I will try to get Jim Gindin's support.

The forum however, would be a bit more detailed. Here is a rough layout of how it would look. The category headings are bolded with the discussion threads underneath.

Front Office Football
Rosters
Contract / Salary Cap
Game Planning
Trading
Dynasties
Drafting
Offseason

Multiplayer
Online Leagues

Non-FOF Related
The Real NFL
General Chat

FOF World
Web Site Advice
Forum Advice

Getting people to visit the site is obvisouly the most important aspect. FOF Central currently has quite a few members. I would advertise by posting on other leagues boards and word of mouth. I will also need moderators to help me with the boards.

Now, my question to you all is this:

Is this a good idea? Will it 'fly.'? Or will nobody really visit/participate? If it's a lame idea (as I am sure some of you will say), I won't do it. I just think it would've helped me out when I started and it will help others. I also think, if done correctly, it will attract new people to the game.

Great games flourish with great supporting web sites.

Thanks for your input. <!--Signature-->

--------------------
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IFL (http://ifl.mindwipesports.net/) - Miami Dolphins
Front Office Football (http://www.solecismic.com/index.php)<!--E-Signature--></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[wade moore]

My honest impression:

This is a well-intended idea that would not get any support. The reason there is a lot of off-topic posting here is not because people push off the on-topic stuff, but there is just only so much to talk about.

We have all seen how it happens. A new version or patch comes out and we talk it to death. Eventually, there is nothing left to talk about. A few game related discussions come up here and there and get good traffic (i.e. your best defense ever thread or the HOF thread).

However, most of the "serious game talk" comes out in the dynasties.

Anyway. Point being, I just don't think the interest is there to really keep a site moving that would only talk strictly about the game.

[Bee]

I agree with wade. There's not enough FOF exclusive content to keep a board busy.

[3ric]

A website solely with FOF information (such as thedugout.net for CM) would be a nice addition, but any extra forums dedicated to FOF wouldn't add as much value, IMHO.

One thing we don't have at FOFC:
I miss the ability to upload attachments here, and the new site could provide that upload functionality to share logos, utilities and other stuff.

[Draft Dodger]

Wade_Moores_Answer++

[Blackadar]

Heh, the guy sounds like a well-intentioned rookie to me.

1. There's just not enough to talk about with a FOF-only board. Most everything that can be disected has already been done over here.

2. I think he'd have a hard time getting people over to his new board. It's not like there's this monster FOF community or anything.

With all that said, you may want to e-mail him and pick his brain for ideas. Perhaps he can bring something of value here.

[Samdari]

I agree with everyone else, I don't think there would be much traffic at all. Most of the people who have searched for a FOF dedicated site end up here, its not hard to find.

This is not the first new visitor to wonder why there is so much non-FOF content discussed here, and why it is so tough to find an FOF-related thread. What the new visitors do not realize is that most of the questions they wish to ask have been asked and answered. Most of this issues they wish to discuss have been discussed to death. I'd be surprised if a new board were to have any topics which had not already been covered here.

[wade moore]

Wade_Moores_Answer++

I'm not sure who is more of a nerd...

You for putting it that way...

Or me for laughing at it...

[Ksyrup]

Ditto here. If he and a bunch of rookies want to rehash the grognarding that everyone did of this game 3-4 years ago, have at it. They can do that here and would be welcomed. After that's finished, though, they'll be left with...FOF Central. Except not as cool. :cool:

Seriously, though, a website dedicated to FOF information sounds good, but I think he'd do well to just link to this place. We talk FOF when the need arises; it's just that after 4-5 years of beating things into the ground, there's not much new stuff to cover.

[Ben E Lou]

With all that said, you may want to e-mail him and pick his brain for ideas. Perhaps he can bring something of value here.Good call.

[Cap Ologist]

Since he likes big projects, maybe he should work on an updated strategy guide. Or if he likes really big projects maybe he can make a manual for OOTP so that I can finally learn what the heck most of that stuff means. :D

[sachmo71]

I don't think there would be a problem with someone making a FOF only board, but I agree with others that it's much easier just to discuss FOF ideas here, as they come up. This board is so much more than FOF now...maybe we could discuss changing the name again? Maybe text sim central?

[Raiders Army]

What do Brock Lesnar, politics, Farenheit 9/11, and Harry Potter have to do with text sims? :D

[albionmoonlight]

I agree with everything that has been said here.

Perhaps he could become moderator of the strategy forum--which is the most underused part of the site, IMO. It would be kind of cool if he could bring his (obvious) energy to it and make it something like his vision for his own site. Then, he could benefit from us, and we from him.

[cthomer5000]

Perhaps he could become moderator of the strategy forum
ouch. that hurts man....


:(



Just kidding really. I was only made strategy moderator for the gameplan thread which has completely flopped. I have received one game plan ever for FOF2004.

[WSUCougar]

Since he likes big projects, maybe he should work on an updated strategy guide.
I think this is an excellent idea.

[Miami Dolphins]

<--- Well intentioned rookie

Thank you all for the responses and thanks SkyDog for starting the discussion.

First off, this was not a knock at all towards this site. I am in fact, pretty new to the game. When I first began, I wanted to find a site to learn all I could about FOF (since there is no instruction manual). I did learn a lot from the old posts here, but I wanted more. I also happen to be a web designer, so I thought a new site would be benificial.

Now that I read all the posts, I know not to waste my time. My only advice would be to create a thread titled "Off topic." All talks about non-fof related stuff would go there since this is FOF Central. Sticky all the good info at the top.

The modertater should move all off topic posts made in the fof thread to the off topic thread.

Maybe that's what you have now with 'Dynasties' but I'm not so sure.

Thanks again for the time.

P.S. I have not the experiece to create a strategy guide :)

[gstelmack]

Sticky all the good info at the top.
It is already. It's called the "All Inclusive Reference Thread". A great place for beginners to start, and it's right at the top (occasionally pushed to second by another stickied thread).

[Senator]

The historical board is dying a slow death, so I think there can be only ONE!

[Ben E Lou]

The historical board is dying a slow death, so I think there can be only ONE!Indeed.

One Board to rule them all.
One Board to find them.
One Board to Bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.



This is the One Board, founded by the Dark Lords Tony and Chubby, hijacked by Stix, recovered by Blackadar, ruler of the Sodomites, perpetuated by SkyDog, the One True Dark Jedi.

By the power of the One True Board, the land of FOFC shall rule all of Text Sim Earth.


{EVIL LAUGH}

[Fonzie]

Or if he likes really big projects maybe he can make a manual for OOTP so that I can finally learn what the heck most of that stuff means. :D

:D

[Blackadar]

Indeed.

One Board to rule them all.
One Board to find them.
One Board to Bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.



This is the One Board, founded by the Dark Lords Tony and Chubby, hijacked by Stix, recovered by Blackadar, ruler of the Sodomites, perpetuated by SkyDog, the One True Dark Jedi.

By the power of the One True Board, the land of FOFC shall rule all of Text Sim Earth.


{EVIL LAUGH}

Founded by the dark lord Chubby? Get your history right!

Founded solely by the Dark Lord Tony. Helped by Blackadar, ruler of the Sodomites, leader of the 9. Rescued by the Evil Wizard Chubby from the clutches of Smeagol (Dave Dial) and given back to the leader of the 9 (me).

Heck, Stix is nothing more than the equivalent of Wormtongue.

It then passed to the Dark Jedi SkyDog who rules it with an iron fist. And Middle Solecismic shall be ruled in darkness until the end of ages.

[cthomer5000]

man we are nerdy.

[Honolulu_Blue]

man we are nerdy.

Ah yep.

[Ben E Lou]

Heck, Stix is nothing more than the equivalent of Wormtongue.Best....line......ever.

OK. I'll come clean. It was over 4 1/2 years ago, but I'm STILL a little miffed that that guy banned me for a day. I guess that makes me the equivalent of Eomer. ;)

[Bee]

I guess that makes me the equivalent of Eomer.

Isn't that the donkey from Winnie the Pooh?

[MizzouRah]

we are, we are... FOFC.


Todd

[kcchief19]

I think this guy touches on some valid observations.

1) There is no up-to-date fansite for FOF. This is a forum, but the Web site is abused -- that's not a knock on our volunteers who maintain everything, it's just a simple fact.

2) FOF discussion gets lost in the General Discussion forum. Other boards like OOTP and .400 seem to have no problems maintaining separation between on-topic and off-topic discussions. The separate categories of those forums seem to do just fine on their own.

We had another great example recently of a not-so-swift newbie who wandered in here looking for information on FOF because this forum was the only place to find it. He got mocked and chased off. We do it all the time.

The reference thread was a great idea, but to me it's a band-aid. It isn't necessarily all-inclusive, and you still have to wade through the occasional crap to get to the good stuff. No one would use Yahoo! if to get to the news and information you are looking for you had to wade through a bunch of post about trouts and pig f*ckers.

I think it would great if someone like this would want to get involved with FOFC to clean up the Web site side of things. I also think separate on-topic and off-topic forums would be a good idea, but I know that runs against the grain here.

To me, the topic we're discussing comes down to this question: Is FOFC a place for discussions among people who happen to share an interest in FOF or is it a place for people who like FOF who have discussions unleated to the game? Personally, I think it should be the latter because I think that would make for a stronger forum with more broad-base appeal, and would reflect better on the product.

[Franklinnoble]

If he starts a new forum, I promise to immediately begin pestering him for a QOTM feature.

[rkmsuf]

I'm more of the thinking that the forum has always been this way and evolved as such for a reason. The sticky thread is plenty for new players to get them going. Any further discussion should be fueled by what's going on at the time ie new releases. Every new release brings a whole boatload of FOF talk.

If someone wants to break FOF down into that much minutia then have at it but I don't see a need to alter this place.

[3ric]

I agree with kcchief. There's a need for a kick-ass fansite to complement this forum.

[Samdari]

I think that kcchief has a point about FOF related material being lost (when it does appear).

Perhaps the thing to do would be to split 'General Discussion' into two forums - General FOF talk, and Off-Topic. I know that any other forum but General gets very little traffic, but I think it would be easier to find the one thread in 50 that refers to FOF if they were in one place. If nothing else, this has pointed out that the only forum here obviously (by forum title) dedicated to FOF gameplay is the strategy forum, and it is a wasteland (especially since many such threads discuss experiences in the game not relating to strategy). In any case, several newcomers in the past few months have mentioned they cannot find FOF info. Perhaps the fact that someone came here and felt the need to say "I would like to start a site that is actually decicated to FOF" should spur us to some action which makes finding the knowledge we have spewed forth more accessible. Maybe this is as simple as changing the title of the "All Inclusive Reference Thread" to include the words front office or football or something.

As for a website that is not a forum, what content is there, other than the included manual (which has a lot of useful info, if you can find it) and posts from forums? Most of the sum total of accumulated FOF knowledge (at least since I've been playing circa 2001) was made in forum posts. For this information to be presented in a typical 'fan page' type manner would require a whole bunch of organization/editing work on someone's part, and then might ruffle feathers besides, if a particular poster did not feel his thoughts were summarized accurately.

[gstelmack]

Maybe we should retitle the all-inclusive reference thread to be "Links to important FOF threads" or somesuch? Would that make it easier on newcomers to find the key FOF information? And maybe the reference thread could have a blurb at the top explaining the ebb-and-flow nature of FOF discussions and how it relates to a release?

[rkmsuf]

how in the world did the members here figure out what to do?

[Miami Dolphins]

This is what makes this board great, good posters. I think breaking apart FOF talk from general chat is the way to go. A new site isn't real neccesary, but I offered to create one because I thought it'd be neat.

I think creating a general chat under the "Non-FOF" heading is a great idea. Keep FOF related threads under the "FOF Discussion Heading." Maybe threads like "Real NFL Chat" "Other text sims" and "general chat" would be good under "Non-FOF related."

I guess I'm just saying, maybe a simple re-structing of the threads is what is needed, not a complete overhaul. This site has great posters.

It was mentioned earlier that I may be able to moderate the FOF threads. I'd love to help out anyway I can.

[SirFozzie]

Ugh. If there's a need to talk FOF, we talk FOF. Let's not fix something that isn't broken here.

[rkmsuf]

Ugh. If there's a need to talk FOF, we talk FOF. Let's not fix something that isn't broken here.


right on...agree.

like what has been already said, nobody is preventing anyone from creating a fansite.

[Samdari]

Ugh. If there's a need to talk FOF, we talk FOF. Let's not fix something that isn't broken here.

Depends on what you mean broken.

The forum obviously works well in its current state for most, if not all, of the current regular members (incidentally, including me).

Some members have expressed interest in making information about FOF easily accessible to new visitors. Given the feedback from a couple of recent visitors fitting that description, that function is definitely broken.

[cthomer5000]

Depends on what you mean broken.

The forum obviously works well in its current state for most, if not all, of the current regular members (incidentally, including me).

Some members have expressed interest in making information about FOF easily accessible to new visitors. Given the feedback from a couple of recent visitors fitting that description, that function is definitely broken.
I just think we need a better system of archiving relavent threads. Stuff should be moved the the strategies forum once it's off just drifting down the pages here.

[SirFozzie]

Depends on what you mean broken.

The forum obviously works well in its current state for most, if not all, of the current regular members (incidentally, including me).

Some members have expressed interest in making information about FOF easily accessible to new visitors. Given the feedback from a couple of recent visitors fitting that description, that function is definitely broken.

That is the fault of the people coming in. If they don't want to do 15 seconds research... to find the thread with all the information in it, well, then oh well.

Basically, I like the mish mash. If/when the next Solecismic game comes out, we will talk it to death.

Another site may be the answer, but FOFCentral has gone beyond a FOF-Centric site, to be the Sports-sim version of slashdot. We are a COMMUNITY.

anything that further divides it is not something that I want.

A FOF Forum will have lots of posts for about 3-4 weeks, and then be dead, until the next game comes out, and be hot for 3-4 weeks, and then be dead.

[Ben E Lou]

A FOF Forum will have lots of posts for about 3-4 weeks, and then be dead, until the next game comes out, and be hot for 3-4 weeks, and then be dead.And that is precisely why it isn't going to happen here. Blackadar was very clear on this point for the two years he ran the place, and I think I've been just as clear in the year and a half I've been at the helm.

I will copy the good FOF threads into the strategy forum, though, for those who don't want to spend a few seconds to find the soon-to-be-newly-titled reference thread. :p

[Samdari]

That is the fault of the people coming in.

This is the mindset I would like to see go away. If someone makes a post saying, "I could not find this" that person probably did do "15 seconds of research" and could not find the information. Usually, within a few posts, someone is replying in that thread demeaning him for not finding it on his own. What is the point of that? I am merely suggesting that instead of having that be our knee-jerk reaction to everyone saying they cannot find something, perhaps we should examine if it is as easy to find as we think.

'Easily Accessible' and ;Obvious' are both concepts that are in the eye of the beholder. Just because something is obvious to you does not make it obvious to everyone. For example,"All Inclusive Reference Thread" obviously points to all of the relevant threads on FOF discussions. Of course, most of us that is obvious to were here when it was first put up, and privy to SkyDog's explanation of the reasons for its creation, and organization. It is very difficult for any of us to have the perspective of someone new to the series, and new to here, who ends up here looking for more in depth info about the game. We have had several people come here lately and tell us its not easy. I am saying that maybe - just maybe - it is not as easy as we think, and we should not tell them they are idiots for not finding the information on their own.

[Samdari]

for those who don't want to spend a few seconds to find the soon-to-be-newly-titled reference thread. :p

Are you sure everyone who posts asking a question that is answered there was too lazy to do so, and instead just never knew to go there?

[Passacaglia]

A FOF Forum will have lots of posts for about 3-4 weeks, and then be dead, until the next game comes out, and be hot for 3-4 weeks, and then be dead.

So? Why does the forum have to be extremely active, in order to exist? If it's slow, let it be slow. I think that if we split the forums, there's a chance that actual FOF discussion might increase. And besides, what does it hurt?

[rkmsuf]

This is the mindset I would like to see go away. If someone makes a post saying, "I could not find this" that person probably did do "15 seconds of research" and could not find the information. Usually, within a few posts, someone is replying in that thread demeaning him for not finding it on his own. What is the point of that? I am merely suggesting that instead of having that be our knee-jerk reaction to everyone saying they cannot find something, perhaps we should examine if it is as easy to find as we think.

'Easily Accessible' and ;Obvious' are both concepts that are in the eye of the beholder. Just because something is obvious to you does not make it obvious to everyone. For example,"All Inclusive Reference Thread" obviously points to all of the relevant threads on FOF discussions. Of course, most of us that is obvious to were here when it was first put up, and privy to SkyDog's explanation of the reasons for its creation, and organization. It is very difficult for any of us to have the perspective of someone new to the series, and new to here, who ends up here looking for more in depth info about the game. We have had several people come here lately and tell us its not easy. I am saying that maybe - just maybe - it is not as easy as we think, and we should not tell them they are idiots for not finding the information on their own.

To cite a recent example, you can't title a thread "is this download or pc" and expect some informative prose as responses.

[Ben E Lou]

Are you sure everyone who posts asking a question that is answered there was too lazy to do so, and instead just never knew to go there?If you can point me to a time (besides that recent guy who apparently couldn't speak English*) in the recent past when someone's been rude to a noob, I'd like to see it. People have very cordially pointed newbies to the reference thread for the past several months.

*--And actually there's very not much evidence to indicate that that person realized he was being ragged on. :p

[Buzzbee]

I just think we need a better system of archiving relavent threads. Stuff should be moved the the strategies forum once it's off just drifting down the pages here.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.

Don't split the forum. Simply copy relevant FOF strategy type discussions or threads to the strategy forum. I believe SkyDog can move threads between forums, but if possible, I'd like to see them COPIED, not MOVED. That would make searching easier, as you can search on the general discussion forum since it was most likely created and discussed there.

No dig on cth, but if Miami Doll-fins wants to moderate, and was willing to take the time to create a website, perhaps he can be given authority to move threads? Don't know if it'd be possible for SD to limit his authority to just moving/copying threads without giving him the keys to the kingdom though.

[Blackadar]

SkyDog and I have some experience with the forums...I've always been against having too many because it just kills the flow of the discussion.

But here's an idea, for what it's worth...

We could probably condense the site down into three different forums:

- FOF Discussion - this includes matchmaking, dynasties, IHOF and strategies. Right now, that's roughly 70,000 posts plus whatever gets moved from the current main forum.
- Non-FOF Discussion - Essentially the main forum continued with the PC/Console forum thrown in. 350,000 posts.
- Hattrick Discussion - Just for the Hattrick folks. 48,000 posts.

I don't know if it's better or worse. But with MP leagues, dynasties and the like (some of which deserve to just be stickied), the FOF forum would be fairly active. I think now that MP FOF is around, the forum would be more active than when FOF was just single player.

The non-FOF forum would be the most active discussion and the Hattrick folks are all by themselves as normal.

Just an idea...

[Franklinnoble]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Except for that QOTM bit... ;)

[cthomer5000]

My suggestion for forums:

General Discussion (leave it alone)
Dynasty Reports (leave it alone)
FOF Archive (move all of statagies here, move FOF-centric conversation here after it's prime time has passed)
FOF multiplayer (move the IHOF stuff in there, and make it a place for questions specific to MP or match-making)
Hattrick (it clearly justifies it's own forum)

[SirFozzie]

What about all the non-FOF dynasties? Bad idea, sorry. (oops this wasn't at CThomer's but the previous one)

[rkmsuf]

I'd bet that if someone created a fansite like the one suggested that within 6 months that person would spend 95% of their time in the FOF "OT/General Discussion" area.

This is a total non issue. Sticky more threads if you like but beyond that nothing is gained sans the lack of threads thinking PC means CD.

[Samdari]

So? Why does the forum have to be extremely active, in order to exist? If it's slow, let it be slow. I think that if we split the forums, there's a chance that actual FOF discussion might increase. And besides, what does it hurt?

I agree. We let the strategy forum continue to exist. There are two threads there posted to in the last month, both almost three weeks ago.

I don't think we really have to have another forum myself, but don't see the drawback to changing the name of that one, to encourage FOF related material posted there.

FYI - there are 24 threads posted in General the last month which have keyword FOF in the title. There are two on the front page with FOF questions without that 3 letter designation in the title. There is some FOF content here, but I can see where some newbies - who want just FOF info and not community, it would be quite easy to accomodate them. I do not understand the logic which does not want that in a separate forum because there would be too little traffic, and yet keeps strategy open.

[gstelmack]

I do not understand the logic which does not want that in a separate forum because there would be too little traffic, and yet keeps strategy open.
I really like being able to come to the General forum, see all the threads that have new posts since the last time I visited show up in bold, scan through those to see what I want to read, and then read them. If there were multiple forum sections, I'd be forgetting to visit them all the time. I still only visit the Dynasty forum if I see "X-Com" or "Combat Mission" come up as the most recently active thread on the main page. I keep forgetting to check there regularly.

If we created an FOF section, it would be busy around release time and then dead, while the General Discussion would be dead around release time and then busy.

I say go with the minimalist approach. Let SkyDog make his tweaks, and see if newbies still have a tough time.

[Passacaglia]

I really like Samdari's idea about renaming the strategies thread as "FOF discussion" or something similar.

[Miami Dolphins]

Geeze, didn't know I was opening this big of a can of worms....

FYI, now changing my name to "Aquatix"

[rkmsuf]

To quote Garth

"We fear change"

[gstelmack]

Geeze, didn't know I was opening this big of a can of worms....
It doesn't take much. We love to talk http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[korme]

Blackadar's idea sounds good to me. But you have to keep Dynasty Reports as well.

I mean, I love General Discussion and all, and I used to be against splitting it up, but OOTPDev's Off-Topic situation works just fine.

[Blackadar]

Geeze, didn't know I was opening this big of a can of worms....

FYI, now changing my name to "Aquatix"

Actually, you should be thanked. It's good to shake this place up once in a while.

So...thank you.

[aquatix]

Ah yes, much better. This is the real me.

NP Blackadar :)

[Chubby]

I'm an evil wizard, I roxxor :D

Eh doesn't matter to me what happens, I think a FOF only forum will be dead 80% of the time as people have said.

[BishopMVP]

Just what we need, another Dolphins fan. :rolleyes: ;)

Seriously, I think changing the name of the Strategy Forum and copying/linking to threads in GD from that forum are good ideas, but I don't like the splitting off of forums. I pretty much only visit the GD and HT forums, and I guess for most posters they only go to GD and one or two others. It sounds stupid, but that extra click over to a FOF-specific forum would probably cut out a decent amount of talk about the game.

[Ben E Lou]

It sounds stupid, but that extra click over to a FOF-specific forum would probably cut out a decent amount of talk about the game.Bingo. The other forums here are like other worlds.

For those that asked, I have a suspicion that copying the good threads over to Strategy (or whatever new name it gets) will take very little time. I'll work on it in the morning.