OT - Student profiling

[QuikSand]

So, I'm working through grading some tests for the economics clas i teach at a local community college. And I once again see a pattern that emerges time and time again. I've taught the class for several years, and this is something that no longer surprises me at all:

Using the information that I get indirectly from my students in the first five minutes of the first class period of the course, I can pretty reliably predict how well they will do in the class.

The simple array of context clues -- everything ranging from posture, clothing, and tatoos to more sociological things like age and race -- all leads me to have a pretty good idea on how the grades are going to fall long before there's anything to base it on. It's pretty scary - I'd guess that I'd have about a 75-85% strike rate if I was asked who would be in the upper half and the lower half of each class. I'm about to send a "go see a tutor" note to two of my students, and I pretty much knew which ones would be getting that note within the first half hour of seeing them in class.

For what it's worth... I take great pains to grade fairly. I grade my tests from the last page to the first, so I don't even see the student's name until I'm essentially done grading. If there's room for any mind of bias there, it would be just one based on handwriting -- pretty tough to imagine (though I am a fan of good penmanship). I have not yet received a paper, which is more subjective -- but the grades on the tests usually dictate the overall mastery of the material.

For what it's worth, I teach in an area (and in a setting) where my students are a wide range of people from diffrent backgrounds... pretty much the whole range of cultural, family, and academic backgrounds. I get students who are mid-career, some who are of traditional college age. I get college kids who are grabbing a cheap filler class during the summer, and I get kids who can't afford to go to a four-year school and instead choose a community college. In my county, there are some very blue-collar areas, and some pretty effette residential areas -- really spanning the whole range.

I often wonder what this says about class and race in education, and in society. I also wonder what it says about intergenerational "profiling" of the same sort.

And I wonder if there's more to this than meets the eye. Is there somehow a subtle cause-and-effect relationship here than I don't even see?


*sigh*

Just rambling, I guess. Not looking to open up a particular hot potato conversation, either. But it's something that really troubles me.

[Noop]

For those of us with a 127 IQ what does this mean?

[rkmsuf]

no different than interviews and the like. first impressions are powerful...just the way it is.

I wonder if race and class apply...just how students present themselves perhaps. A poor minority could be clean cut and speak well and you'd expect success I'd guess.

[Franklinnoble]

So, generally speaking, I'm guessing someone who's well-groomed and well-mannered will do better in your class?

Why is that news? Unless you're tap-dancing around a racial issue here... My experience in college was that the students who took their education seriously were generally well-groomed and polite. It didn't matter if they were white, black, asian, latino, or otherwise.

Now, I did observe that a larger percentage of asians fell into the "well-groomed and polite" category. But I don't think that's really big news either.

[Noop]

So, generally speaking, I'm guessing someone who's well-groomed and well-mannered will do better in your class?

Why is that news? Unless you're tap-dancing around a racial issue here... My experience in college was that the students who took their education seriously were generally well-groomed and polite. It didn't matter if they were white, black, asian, latino, or otherwise.

Now, I did observe that a larger percentage of asians fell into the "well-groomed and polite" category. But I don't think that's really big news either.
How dress is not how well you will do. Because I wear jeans and black tee shirts to school all the time and carry 3+ gpa.... I know alot of guys who dress like totally slobs and still get good grades. One more thing do you consider Goths as well dress cause one at my school is a damn genius.

[rkmsuf]

How dress is not how well you will do. Because I wear jeans and black tee shirts to school all the time and carry 3+ gpa.... I know alot of guys who dress like totally slobs and still get good grades. One more thing do you consider Goths as well dress cause one at my school is a damn genius.

Doesn't matter. When you walk in a room you project an image. It's not fair but it's reality. Take identical people...one in a suit and one dressed as a goth and have a 100 people draft one. Again, idealistically not right but that's reality.

[Noop]

Doesn't matter. When you walk in a room you project an image. It's not fair but it's reality. Take identical people...one in a suit and one dressed as a goth and have a 100 people draft one. Again, idealistically not right but that's reality.I don't like living in reality... it kills my dreams.... I say we blame the rappers...

[bbor]

I honestly thought you were a mailman ;)

[Buzzbee]

I would guess that the older students tend to be middle of the road. Not top of the class, but not class idiots either. They are probably there because the didn't get an education earlier and something has prompted them to go back to school. It may have been a job loss or fear of a job loss, or someone who was "forced" into the workforce at a young age (lack of money, most likely) and now that they have the means are taking advantage.

They most likely aren't Einstiens or they most likely would have A) already gone to college or B) are in a position where they don't feel they need to go to a community college to take classes. They most likely aren't the riff raff either, since there has to be SOME motivation for an older person to take classes.

How close am I?

[rkmsuf]

I don't like living in reality... it kills my dreams.... I say we bame the rappers...

How come Stephen Hawking can't have dreads and some tats?

[Samdari]

When I was teaching a class in grad school, I used to get frustrated by the constant question "what is our grade in this class going to be based on" Being simultaneously a student at this time, I knew they were telling me "I have no interest in what you are teaching" and also trying to find out where to put the most effort so as to get the best grade they could with minimal effort. One day, I caused quite a stir by answering that each individual grade would be based on how well I was getting along with my fiance (later Mrs Sam) when I graded their work. Stunned silence followed by loud protests. Of course, Mrs Sam was always treated like a goddess when appearing at the end of class to travel home together, which she appreciated.

But there were a life lesson hidden in there, which I tried to explain to them later, that there was a human element to all human work. When I graded their work, as a human, I could not help but view it in the context of everything I knew, and through the lens of all my experience. When I was in a bad mood because of a fight with someone close to me, or soon after a review of my financial situation, no answer was going to seem as clever as when I had just had naked time, or a good (i.e. free) meal.

Also, (and here is where it relates to QS's post. I knew whose work I was grading, and how they dressed, and how seriously they appeared to take my class (note to students - the two are related). How easy it was to understand what they were trying to say was a huge factor, despite the fact that it was not an english class. I am a bit embarassed by this, but the pretty girls probably averaged half a grade better than the males, the ones I did not find attractive did worse. One thing that got my goat was hats. The students who wore baseball caps to class did not do very well. To me it was a sign both of disrespect and that they were not serious about the class.

Anyway, that is my rambling contribution to your rambling thread. Reading it brought that particular experience, and my one attempt at a real lesson, immediately to mind.

[Noop]

How come Stephen Hawking can't have dreads and some tats?
I don't know who he is... is he dude in the wheelchair? If it is.... well the reason why cause he doesn't want them.

[WSUCougar]

I honestly thought you were a mailman ;)
LOL :D

[MacroGuru]

When I was teaching a class in grad school, I used to get frustrated by the constant question "what is our grade in this class going to be based on" Being simultaneously a student at this time, I knew they were telling me "I have no interest in what you are teaching" and also trying to find out where to put the most effort so as to get the best grade they could with minimal effort. One day, I caused quite a stir by answering that each individual grade would be based on how well I was getting along with my fiance (later Mrs Sam) when I graded their work. Stunned silence followed by loud protests. Of course, Mrs Sam was always treated like a goddess when appearing at the end of class to travel home together, which she appreciated.

But there were a life lesson hidden in there, which I tried to explain to them later, that there was a human element to all human work. When I graded their work, as a human, I could not help but view it in the context of everything I knew, and through the lens of all my experience. When I was in a bad mood because of a fight with someone close to me, or soon after a review of my financial situation, no answer was going to seem as clever as when I had just had naked time, or a good (i.e. free) meal.

Also, (and here is where it relates to QS's post. I knew whose work I was grading, and how they dressed, and how seriously they appeared to take my class (note to students - the two are related). How easy it was to understand what they were trying to say was a huge factor, despite the fact that it was not an english class. I am a bit embarassed by this, but the pretty girls probably averaged half a grade better than the males, the ones I did not find attractive did worse. One thing that got my goat was hats. The students who wore baseball caps to class did not do very well. To me it was a sign both of disrespect and that they were not serious about the class.

Anyway, that is my rambling contribution to your rambling thread. Reading it brought that particular experience, and my one attempt at a real lesson, immediately to mind.
You know, going through High School, it was pretty boring for me, regurgitating what I was being told. I knew the stuff, I was one of those baseball cap disrespectin fools.

Funny thing is, I aced every single test I took, proving that I did have the knowledge, and I did know my stuff, but due to the profiling and my lack of interest in school, I sucked at my GPA.

If I could do it over again, I would. I would have actually paid attention, just to keep the 3.8+ GPA I should have had.

It's one of the greatest things I stressed to the kids I coached HS football. Grades and school first. Football 2nd, cause football will not be there after HS and College for most of you. I was proud to say, that my Defense had some of the highest GPA's in the school as they focused on their studies, and no one wanted to sit out, which was the punishment for failing a class or getting anything less than a C. Even the ones that thought they were to dumb, did well, as they had tutors on the team.

[rkmsuf]

You know, going through High School, it was pretty boring for me, regurgitating what I was being told. I knew the stuff, I was one of those baseball cap disrespectin fools.

Funny thing is, I aced every single test I took, proving that I did have the knowledge, and I did know my stuff, but due to the profiling and my lack of interest in school, I sucked at my GPA.

If I could do it over again, I would. I would have actually paid attention, just to keep the 3.8+ GPA I should have had.

It's one of the greatest things I stressed to the kids I coached HS football. Grades and school first. Football 2nd, cause football will not be there after HS and College for most of you. I was proud to say, that my Defense had some of the highest GPA's in the school as they focused on their studies, and no one wanted to sit out, which was the punishment for failing a class or getting anything less than a C. Even the ones that thought they were to dumb, did well, as they had tutors on the team.

that is exactly the life lessons kids should learn. Stop crying the victim, adapt and excel with what you are faced with. The hardest thing to do is motivate kids in the moment that have natural intelligence but lack the desire to knock it out of the park.

[JonInMiddleGA]

My experience in college was that the students who took their education seriously were generally well-groomed and polite.

I'd say that's a pretty common impression, and it tends to hold up later in their professional lives as well (at least speaking very generally).

As for the original post, this seems similar to my ability to very accurately guess which of the two local high schools students attend based upon watching them for all of about five minutes. Let's say observing them on their job at Dairy Queen or Ingles or wherever. It's not race, it's not clothing, it's not looks ... it's demeanor. And it's a dead giveaway better than 90% of the time.

[korme]

i got a 6 on my act

[duckman]

i got a 6 on my act
Hey! A four point improvement from the last time! Good job, Shorty! ;)

[Pumpy Tudors]

First of all, I don't think QuikSand is dancing around a racial issue here. I've seen what he's talking about, and that was when I was a student. As a communications major, I saw a lot of students who had no interest in being part of "corporate America." They wanted to be actors or graphic designers or gaffers. I often sat in classes where people looked like total bums, and in my five years of college, it's amazing how many of those bums were out of the easiest communications classes, which were sometimes pretty damn easy, by the time drop date rolled around.

I'm not the most well-dressed or well-groomed person in the world. I often wait a couple of days too long to shave my face. I'm never outdoors without a baseball cap or a pair of wristbands on. I have maybe three shirts that aren't t-shirts, and I never wore them to school, nor do I wear them to work (of course, my employers have no problem with this; I'm not being rebellious). There are only three occasions in which I'm not dressed casually: weddings, funerals, and meeting the boss for the first time.

I'm far from being classy or a snappy dresser. So what differentiated me from some of the other students who were dressed similarly? An instructor could look at me and usually know that I was paying attention. Some of the other people around me were clearly in another world. Even though I didn't usually want to be in class, I didn't appear that it was punishment to sit at a desk for an hour. It's not terribly difficult to tell when someone has absolutely no interest in what they're doing, and those were the students who often refused to make the cut.

I don't think that any type of outward appearance (clothing, tattoos, etc.) predisposes somebody to be a poor student. I believe that it's no secret that appearance is going to give an impression, though, and higher levels of school are places that are ideally supposed to be a semi-professional setting. If you have no interest in preparing yourself for that setting, then you'll probably have no interest in what's happening there.

On a bit of a tangent here, my appearance fooled a couple of professors in my time. It wasn't just the clothes. I showed up late a few times, I slouched pretty deeply in my seat, and I didn't seem to be completely there. Looking back on it, I know that the professors took those things as signs of disrespect, and I truly regret that, because I never meant it that way. The thing is, however, that a couple of the professors challenged me and some of the other students. While many of the others were lost, I knew my stuff. Of course, that just led to more challenges, because I guess they couldn't believe that my mind was regularly so far above my appearance. So I was profiled a few times, but it didn't matter because I was intelligent enough and interested enough to counter any opinions they could've formed from my appearance. I would guess that many of the poorer students that QuikSand mentions just can't handle the work or they aren't interested enough to make a halfway decent impression on their instructor.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that if a student doesn't care enough to appear interested in school, they probably aren't interested enough to be successful there.

[QuikSand]

Sorry to sorta drop this and run (to class even)...

While there is a recial elemtn to my overall thought on the matter, it is more of the "intangibles" that I'm talking about. Students who are willing to look me in the eye while I address the class, for instance -- usually a strong bet to decide to pay attention throughout and to at least work hard. (Students like that will almost never just miss a whole category -- like some students do when they reveal that they didn't pay attention in class and then never even read or studied the material at all)

Class is a factor (and its outward signals - quality of clothing, etc) but again, it's not the main factor. I've had plenty of students who appeared to be struggling to get through the class who then put in loads of effort to do well. It's far more about attitude than anything else.

It's just strange, is all... I really wish that every class were a true blank slate for me, but I'm so rarely surprised any more, it's not even much of a factor. I sit down during the first class and make notes to myself about which students to try to bring into class conversation (weeks down the road), since I know they are the ones who will have trouble staying focused otherwise. *sigh*

Anyway - sorry for rambling on, and thanks for the interesting comments.

[Barkeep49]

First impressions are so important. It's why in every history class, and many others in the social sciences, I took as an undergrad in the first class discussion we would have I would always make sure to mention something about a footnote. Never ceased to amaze the professor.

More on topic, I just got my first teaching job (yeah!) but am torn about how formal to dress. I will be teaching middle school and am debating between khakis and polo shirt and tie, nice pants and shirt. I want to be taken seriously but at the sametime don't want to be completely written off as being stodgy.

[Ajaxab]

I try to be as objective as I can in evaluating my students. However, I am much more inclined to reward those who come and talk to me about their projects. I just graded a paper today that probably should have got a slightly lower grade, but this person went out of their way to give me a draft and get my feedback. I guess I want to reward process as much as product and this person worked through the process moreso than 16 of the others in the class. I appreciate that extra effort irrespective of how this person looks.

[duckman]

Barkeep and Ajaxab,

What do you teach?

[Barkeep49]

Barkeep and Ajaxab,

What do you teach?
Not enough :)

If you're asking what subject I will be teaching Early American History. This really excites me as I think it is one of the best opportunities schools have to try and instill a patriotic spirit in its students. Plus the material itself is really fascinating.

[TroyF]

I'd say that's a pretty common impression, and it tends to hold up later in their professional lives as well (at least speaking very generally).

As for the original post, this seems similar to my ability to very accurately guess which of the two local high schools students attend based upon watching them for all of about five minutes. Let's say observing them on their job at Dairy Queen or Ingles or wherever. It's not race, it's not clothing, it's not looks ... it's demeanor. And it's a dead giveaway better than 90% of the time.


I couldn't agree more here. We are talking about the intangibles here. How a person carries themselves. I think most employers have had the same feelings QS. When I was a supervisor at a call center, we would hire a batch of 15 to 20 techs at a time during holiday season. I could usually predict with that 75-85% clip that you could how solid they'd be before they ever took a call.

I think there is another element here as well. Some of us can see these things more easily than others. I suck at math (unlike Mr. 2/3), I'm not the greatest at logic problems, I can't draw to save my life, but I do have a good ability to pick up on all of the non verbal signs the people around me are showing. I had the highest success rate at employee retention in our building because of it.

I think this skill has taken me further in life than any other single one I possess.

[duckman]

Not enough :)

If you're asking what subject I will be teaching Early American History. This really excites me as I think it is one of the best opportunities schools have to try and instill a patriotic spirit in its students. Plus the material itself is really fascinating.
That's cool. I'm going to school in the fall so that I can become a teacher. I'll be going into secondary education myself specializing in English.

[MacroGuru]

Not enough :)

If you're asking what subject I will be teaching Early American History. This really excites me as I think it is one of the best opportunities schools have to try and instill a patriotic spirit in its students. Plus the material itself is really fascinating.
Woot! One of my favorite subjects, although, I have to say any history or social studies were. I am seriously thinking about saying F*** It, and take the leap forward to get my teaching degree, wife be damned!

Cause honestly, Teaching History or Comp Sci classes are where I belong, although I truly get the feel for Histoyr more than anything else.

[Eaglesfan27]

Sorry to sorta drop this and run (to class even)...

While there is a recial elemtn to my overall thought on the matter, it is more of the "intangibles" that I'm talking about. Students who are willing to look me in the eye while I address the class, for instance -- usually a strong bet to decide to pay attention throughout and to at least work hard. (Students like that will almost never just miss a whole category -- like some students do when they reveal that they didn't pay attention in class and then never even read or studied the material at all)

Class is a factor (and its outward signals - quality of clothing, etc) but again, it's not the main factor. I've had plenty of students who appeared to be struggling to get through the class who then put in loads of effort to do well. It's far more about attitude than anything else.

It's just strange, is all... I really wish that every class were a true blank slate for me, but I'm so rarely surprised any more, it's not even much of a factor. I sit down during the first class and make notes to myself about which students to try to bring into class conversation (weeks down the road), since I know they are the ones who will have trouble staying focused otherwise. *sigh*

Anyway - sorry for rambling on, and thanks for the interesting comments.

I've been teaching for the past 2 years. I teach an introduction to Psychiatry class to undergraduate occupational therapy students at one of the local universities. I find this thread very interesting, because I'm finding that in 4 semesters of teaching I can generally predict who is going to do well and who isn't going to do as well. It's not any one factor, but a combination of many of the factors that you list. I think the eye contact is very important. If a student can't maintain eye contact with me for at least the first 20 minutes of the 1st lecture for at least half of the time, they generally are going to end up in trouble with their grades at some point in the semester. Teaching is actually my favorite part of my job, and if I didn't choose this career path I would have been a full time teacher at some level.

[Chubby]

QS is one of those teachers that I hate. Particularly for an 8am class when I have practice at 6am.

Can't all professors just have class be optional with a couple of tests spinkled in, preferably the same test year after year? Damn Bio of Sex was a great class, I think the only one I went to was at the end of the semester when they showed porn in class.

[panerd]

Woot! One of my favorite subjects, although, I have to say any history or social studies were. I am seriously thinking about saying F*** It, and take the leap forward to get my teaching degree, wife be damned!

Cause honestly, Teaching History or Comp Sci classes are where I belong, although I truly get the feel for Histoyr more than anything else.

Not trying to be too harsh here, but if you feel like it might cause marital problems due to the lack of money than you really should consider not joining the profession. I am a teacher and feel that the really successful (and happy) teachers are the ones who teach because it is truly what they want to do and they could care less about the money and the problems that come with being a teacher. For the most part the people who entered the field to just coach, as a couple's secondary income, thinking they might like the job but were really concerned about the money, or because they couldn't find anything better to do and wanted summers off are not good teachers and/or happy. I am not saying there are not successful teachers from the last group, but a it is a very low percentage (and sadly a large percentage of teachers). (HUGE CLARIFICATION: When I mentioned coaches I was talking about people who only care about coaching and not teaching, there are lots a great teachers who enjoyteaching and coaching)

[MacroGuru]

Not trying to be too harsh here, but if you feel like it might cause marital problems due to the lack of money than you really should consider not joining the profession. I am a teacher and feel that the really successful (and happy) teachers are the ones who teach because it is truly what they want to do and they could care less about the money and the problems that come with being a teacher. For the most part the people who entered the field to just coach, as a couple's secondary income, thinking they might like the job but were really concerned about the money, or because they couldn't find anything better to do and wanted summers off are not good teachers and/or happy. I am not saying there are not successful teachers from the last group, but a it is a very low percentage (and sadly a large percentage of teachers). (HUGE CLARIFICATION: When I mentioned coaches I was talking about people who only care about coaching and not teaching, there are lots a great teachers who enjoyteaching and coaching)
Actually, it wouldn't cause marital problems, my wife knows that teaching has been a dream and desire of mine since we met. It's just that I was too buys with life in general to move towards where I needed to go to get my degree for it. I was focusing on the big bucks. I owned my own business and was wrapping up my degree in Comp Sci.

The only benefit right now of doing what I do is, my hobby is my job, so I get paid to do what I love.

But honestly, I know what you are saying, we had several of those in my high school, and I did a small local news piece with our news my senior year. Called them out in front of the whole school.

My history teacher, pulled me a side, and informed me I ruffled a few of them with my comments. Funny thing, every single one of my teachers, pulled me aside, and the ones I called out, apologized for their behavior, attitudes. They never realized the students could see or felt that way in regards to their teaching.

One of them retired from teaching that year, and went out and did what he loved. We talk a lot, and he is happier than he has ever been.

[Ajaxab]

Barkeep and Ajaxab,

What do you teach?

I teach Communication Studies and Rhetoric. The course I referenced was a basic Comm.Studies course required of all students who want to be majors in the department.

[Ksyrup]

I had an English professor in college who spent the first class telling us what he expected of us in terms of effort, preparedness, dress, attitude, etc. He asked that anyone who didn't want to comply, to please leave the class. By the end of the class, 4 people had gotten up and left.

This was a M-W-F afternoon class, so part of his lecture was the "if you expect to head out to the beach on Friday and skip this class, leave now, and if you stay in this class, do not show up in tank top, shorts, flip-flops, and sunglasses" speech. Just then, as if on cue, a guy walked in 20 minutes late wearing a tank top, swim shorts, flip-flops, and holding his sunglasses. The professor looked at him, looked at the rest of us, shook his head, and said, "Would anyone care to fill our friend in about what I just said, or should we save him the trouble and suggest that he leave now?"

One of the best professors I ever had.

[rkmsuf]

I had an English professor in college who spent the first class telling us what he expected of us in terms of effort, preparedness, dress, attitude, etc. He asked that anyone who didn't want to comply, to please leave the class. By the end of the class, 4 people had gotten up and left.

This was a M-W-F afternoon class, so part of his lecture was the "if you expect to head out to the beach on Friday and skip this class, leave now, and if you stay in this class, do not show up in tank top, shorts, flip-flops, and sunglasses" speech. Just then, as if on cue, a guy walked in 20 minutes late wearing a tank top, swim shorts, flip-flops, and holding his sunglasses. The professor looked at him, looked at the rest of us, shook his head, and said, "Would anyone care to fill our friend in about what I just said, or should we save him the trouble and suggest that he leave now?"

One of the best professors I ever had.

Did the dude also get a pizza delivered to Mr. Hand's class?

[Ksyrup]

That's about all that was missing.

Honestly, his timing was impeccable. The prof had just finished that sentence, and he walked in as if he was planted (hmmmm....) as a model of how NOT to dress in his class.

[Raiders Army]

No one's posted this thought yet: Quik, can you profile which chicks would bang you? And if you can, what are their characteristics?

Man, everyone must be slow on the trigger today.

[DanGarion]

i got a 6 on my act
That explains a lot... ;)

[korme]

I profiled dan as a loser, but I found out he's just a beer guzzling, cigar smoking man just like the rest of us.

[korme]

http://www.poweredbydan.net/rwbl/rwbl/sapporodrunk.gif

[DanGarion]

I profiled dan as a loser, but I found out he's just a beer guzzling, cigar smoking man just like the rest of us.
Yeah that's all I do... All day. Drink beer, smoke cigars, and play on the internet, while I'm at work. It's a tough job but someone has got to do it!

[korme]

Well if it isn't all you do, then I must have been right in my first assesment. Yes, I think I was correct.

[AZSpeechCoach]

"what is our grade in this class going to be based on" Being simultaneously a student at this time, I knew they were telling me "I have no interest in what you are teaching" and also trying to find out where to put the most effort so as to get the best grade they could with minimal effort. One day, I caused quite a stir by answering that each individual grade would be based on how well I was getting along with my fiance (later Mrs Sam) when I graded their work.


I need to use this with my freshmen next year. I'll get a kick out of it.

[Chubby]

When I was teaching a class in grad school, I used to get frustrated by the constant question "what is our grade in this class going to be based on" Being simultaneously a student at this time, I knew they were telling me "I have no interest in what you are teaching" and also trying to find out where to put the most effort so as to get the best grade they could with minimal effort. One day, I caused quite a stir by answering that each individual grade would be based on how well I was getting along with my fiance (later Mrs Sam) when I graded their work. Stunned silence followed by loud protests. Of course, Mrs Sam was always treated like a goddess when appearing at the end of class to travel home together, which she appreciated.

But there were a life lesson hidden in there, which I tried to explain to them later, that there was a human element to all human work. When I graded their work, as a human, I could not help but view it in the context of everything I knew, and through the lens of all my experience. When I was in a bad mood because of a fight with someone close to me, or soon after a review of my financial situation, no answer was going to seem as clever as when I had just had naked time, or a good (i.e. free) meal.

Also, (and here is where it relates to QS's post. I knew whose work I was grading, and how they dressed, and how seriously they appeared to take my class (note to students - the two are related). How easy it was to understand what they were trying to say was a huge factor, despite the fact that it was not an english class. I am a bit embarassed by this, but the pretty girls probably averaged half a grade better than the males, the ones I did not find attractive did worse. One thing that got my goat was hats. The students who wore baseball caps to class did not do very well. To me it was a sign both of disrespect and that they were not serious about the class.

Anyway, that is my rambling contribution to your rambling thread. Reading it brought that particular experience, and my one attempt at a real lesson, immediately to mind.

Good to see that professors grade based on the person instead of the work. Yet another reason why college is a joke and the majority of students treat it as such.

[judicial clerk]

My property professor in law school taught using the socratic method. His stated rule was that if he called on a student, that student may pass and the prof would call on another student. The second student may also pass and the prof would call on another student. If the third student was unprepared that student would get an F for the course. I think he was a little perturbed that day.

he was otherwise a cool prof whose hobbies included APBA baseball (he actually invited me into his 23 Year running league), poker, and board games. We usually had a game of World at War (Axis & Allies variant) set up in his office during the school year. A couple of other students and another prof would play.

After high school, i don't think the instructor should really care about the students dress. I think of the teacher as providing a service that the student is paying for. I don't tell my cleints that they need to dress a certain way to retain my services.

[rkmsuf]

My property professor in law school taught using the socratic method. His stated rule was that if he called on a student, that student may pass and the prof would call on another student. The second student may also pass and the prof would call on another student. If the third student was unprepared that student would get an F for the course. I think he was a little perturbed that day.

he was otherwise a cool prof whose hobbies included APBA baseball (he actually invited me into his 23 Year running league), poker, and board games. We usually had a game of World at War (Axis & Allies variant) set up in his office during the school year. A couple of other students and another prof would play.

After high school, i don't think the instructor should really care about the students dress. I think of the teacher as providing a service that the student is paying for. I don't tell my cleints that they need to dress a certain way to retain my services.

And then the third student would open a can of whoop ass on the first two shortly after class.

[Ajaxab]

After high school, i don't think the instructor should really care about the students dress. I think of the teacher as providing a service that the student is paying for. I don't tell my cleints that they need to dress a certain way to retain my services.

I know judicial clerk was referencing the idea of dress, but the notion that teachers should be providing services creates a lot of problems with our current educational system. With that kind of perspective, students cause havoc when they don't get the grade they believe they have paid for. If they are paying customers who haven't received the promised product, then they create a fuss about it. I don't think many students would admit to having this perspective just yet, but we are definitely moving in the direction where students realize that academics is a business. It may have been a business before, but now students are beginning to wake up to this fact and it's scary. I rue the day that a student will sue me for giving them a C on an assignment, blaming me for the fact that they didn't get the education they paid for claiming that if they would have received this education, they would have gotten an A. I just don't think teachers should be treated like business owners. We cannot be perceived as service providers and maintain our integrity.

[lurker]

that is exactly the life lessons kids should learn. Stop crying the victim, adapt and excel with what you are faced with.

And how are you supposed to do that when you have asshole professors who give more attractive people better grades? Plastic surgery?

God, that comment in an earlier post sickened me. If you know you're going to be biased towards pretty girls, how damn hard is it to grade them without looking at their names like Quiksand does? Or use a bluebook which is designed for this purpose?

[rkmsuf]

And how are you supposed to do that when you have asshole professors who give more attractive people better grades? Plastic surgery?

God, that comment in an earlier post sickened me. If you know you're going to be biased towards pretty girls, how damn hard is it to grade them without looking at their names like Quiksand does? Or use a bluebook which is designed for this purpose?

don't take it to the extreme. There's a difference between sexist attitudes and getting an overall impression based on appearance and presentation. Nowhere is beauty mentioned.

You can project a sharp, focussed and intelligent picture of yourself without being a male model or beauty queen.

the first sentence is precisely the attitude that is a classic victim mentality.

[Ksyrup]

Or use a bluebook which is designed for this purpose?
In law school, we used BAGS (Blind Anonymous Grading System), and there were, shockingly, a number of feminist professors who clearly hated men. So a friend of mine wrote his essays "like a girl," and doodled flowers and stuff in the margins...and aced the exam. He's fairly certain to this day that he didn't do all that well on the substance, but got his grade because the professor thought he was a she.

[lurker]

...the pretty girls probably averaged half a grade better than the males, the ones I did not find attractive did worse.

This is where beauty was mentioned. I didn't have a problem with what you said, just using your point to say it doesn't always work.

I definitely don't have a victim mentality. I've had people profile me both positively and negatively. In college, they often assumed I was smart because I'm Asian. I didn't like that at all. And in high school my teachers thought I wouldn't succeed in college because I was always late or absent. Oh, and I had this one English teacher that thought anyone that was in AP Calculus must be terrible at her AP English. She would give us all nothing higher than a B, no matter what.

The point is, I know it happens, just that you should try not to let it, especially if you've identified the problem.

And I know women do it to men, too. That's not right either.

[Chubby]

This is where beauty was mentioned. I didn't have a problem with what you said, just using your point to say it doesn't always work.

I definitely don't have a victim mentality. I've had people profile me both positively and negatively. In college, they often assumed I was smart because I'm Asian. I didn't like that at all. And in high school my teachers thought I wouldn't succeed in college because I was always late or absent. Oh, and I had this one English teacher that thought anyone that was in AP Calculus must be terrible at her AP English. She would give us all nothing higher than a B, no matter what.

The point is, I know it happens, just that you should try not to let it, especially if you've identified the problem.

And I know women do it to men, too. That's not right either.

The simple fact that any part of your grade on an assignment is based on one's appearance is a joke.

[primelord]

In law school, we used BAGS (Blind Anonymous Grading System), and there were, shockingly, a number of feminist professors who clearly hated men. So a friend of mine wrote his essays "like a girl," and doodled flowers and stuff in the margins...and aced the exam. He's fairly certain to this day that he didn't do all that well on the substance, but got his grade because the professor thought he was a she.
No wonder I did so well on all my papers! And I just thought doodling flowers was fun. ;)

[lurker]

The simple fact that any part of your grade on an assignment is based on one's appearance is a joke.

Totally agree. I think it would be natural to do what a lot of people have said they do -- make assumptions based on appearance. But you shouldn't feel that it *has* to be true that the sloppy kids do badly.

[primelord]

And in high school my teachers thought I wouldn't succeed in college because I was always late or absent.
I am confused on this particular point. Were you offended by this? Is it an unreasonable assuption to think someone who attends class late or not at all on a regular basis in high school will not do well in college?

[Chubby]

I am confused on this particular point. Were you offended by this? Is it an unreasonable assuption to think someone who attends class late or not at all on a regular basis in high school will not do well in college?

I don't think he was offended by this, but I also don't think a teacher graded his paper differently because he was late. While attendence is often factored into one's overall grade it shouldn't affect an assignment's grade. (I don't think that was the case either, at least that's how I read it)

[cuervo72]

In law school, we used BAGS (Blind Anonymous Grading System), and there were, shockingly, a number of feminist professors who clearly hated men. So a friend of mine wrote his essays "like a girl," and doodled flowers and stuff in the margins...and aced the exam. He's fairly certain to this day that he didn't do all that well on the substance, but got his grade because the professor thought he was a she.

I should have tried this in my Psychology of Gender class (which should have been called Psychology of Women)...as one of the few males in the class (and not all of those were straight), and given the general vibe from the professor, I should have known I was in trouble.

[primelord]

I don't think he was offended by this, but I also don't think a teacher graded his paper differently because he was late. While attendence is often factored into one's overall grade it shouldn't affect an assignment's grade. (I don't think that was the case either, at least that's how I read it) Just a quick note. I believe lurker is a she. :)

[lurker]

Yeah, I guess I should have said more. I would always be there for test days (and usually do pretty good on them) and hand in papers, but they thought coming in late was a signal that I didn't respect them. Which actually makes sense now that I'm older. I was just saying that I've experienced it both ways.

Edit -- thanks for pointing that out, primelord :)

[Chubby]

Just a quick note. I believe lurker is a she. :)

Sorry lurker :)


This whole influx of females is confusing me!

[lurker]

Dude! Influx? May 2001!

I mean, I may only be Junior Varsity but I think there was an incident here or there where I lost posts!!!!

[duckman]

Dude! Influx? May 2001!

I mean, I may only be Junior Varsity but I think there was an incident here or there where I lost posts!!!!
Actually, there has been an increase of women posting on the forum as of late. I think there has been three so far that has been very active on the forum over the last three days.

[lurker]

Yeah, I know. I was saying I'm not part of the recent influx :)

[Chubby]

Heh, yeah I was referring to more female posters recently not joining up, it's all good :)

[hhiipp]

Funny how lurker went from "bad guy" to "omguragirl so sorry" just from primelord posting lurker is in fact a female.

[Chubby]

Funny how lurker went from "bad guy" to "omguragirl so sorry" just from primelord posting lurker is in fact a female.
where? i was agreeing with her anyways.

[lurker]

Funny how lurker went from "bad guy" to "omguragirl so sorry" just from primelord posting lurker is in fact a female.

You obviously haven't seen the threads where everyone disagreed with me while knowing I'm a girl.

[hhiipp]

where? i was agreeing with her anyways.

You're right, got you confused with rkmsuf.

[rkmsuf]

You're right, got you confused with rkmsuf.

huh?

I was well aware from the start as to the gender status of posters. She made points contrary to mine that made her thinking make sense.

[cuervo72]

And in high school my teachers thought I wouldn't succeed in college because I was always late or absent.

You spent too much time prettying yourself up for class?

[BishopMVP]

I rue the day that a student will sue me for giving them a C on an assignment, blaming me for the fact that they didn't get the education they paid for claiming that if they would have received this education, they would have gotten an A.Maybe if you graded based solely on merit and the quality of the work it wouldn't be such a problem.I am much more inclined to reward those who come and talk to me about their projects. I just graded a paper today that probably should have got a slightly lower grade, but this person went out of their way to give me a draft and get my feedback. I guess I want to reward process as much as product and this person worked through the process moreso than 16 of the others in the class. I appreciate that extra effort irrespective of how this person looks.This attitude combined with the appearance issues (often showing up late, appearing lackadaisical in class, getting yelled at for talking to other kids after we'd finished assignments halfway through the time it should have taken) is why I have gotten more than a full point higher GPA in college than in HS. I see people who write papers with no complex sentences, or grammar/tense mistakes every sentence, or just not having a single decent idea in the whole paper and they say things like "This teacher is so hard. I used to get all A's back in HS." and I'm not sure who to be more annoyed at; the kid for not realizing that the paper isn't any good, or the teachers who would give that crap an A just because they probably submitted 3 or 4 different drafts and copied the teachers changes.

[sabotai]

or the teachers who would give that crap an A just because they probably submitted 3 or 4 different drafts and copied the teachers changes.

What about the teachers who would just pass the kid so he would move to the next grade and they wouldn't have to deal with them for another year?

[Chubby]

Maybe if you graded based solely on merit and the quality of the work it wouldn't be such a problem.This attitude combined with the appearance issues (often showing up late, appearing lackadaisical in class, getting yelled at for talking to other kids after we'd finished assignments halfway through the time it should have taken) is why I have gotten more than a full point higher GPA in college than in HS. I see people who write papers with no complex sentences, or grammar/tense mistakes every sentence, or just not having a single decent idea in the whole paper and they say things like "This teacher is so hard. I used to get all A's back in HS." and I'm not sure who to be more annoyed at; the kid for not realizing that the paper isn't any good, or the teachers who would give that crap an A just because they probably submitted 3 or 4 different drafts and copied the teachers changes.

Exactly, and this is why I'm so baffled by the prof who was mad when the students asked how the class would be graded (Samdari?) All they are doing is trying to figure out what suckup way you are looking for in order to get a good grade since it's painfully obvious that a lot (not all) of college professors grade on something other than merit.

[Chubby]

What about the teachers who would just pass the kid so he would move to the next grade and they wouldn't have to deal with them for another year?
That's HS we're talking mostly college but those teachers aren't doing anyone any good.

[primelord]

Exactly, and this is why I'm so baffled by the prof who was mad when the students asked how the class would be graded (Samdari?) All they are doing is trying to figure out what suckup way you are looking for in order to get a good grade since it's painfully obvious that a lot (not all) of college professors grade on something other than merit.
I wouldn't take it that far. I think the students were looking more for the easy way out on what to study rather then how to suck up to the teacher. If the teacher says the final in non-comprehensive and that your grade will soley be based on your test scores then the students realize they can not show up half the time, cram the night before the test, and immediately forget everything they learned after the test is over.

[sabotai]

That's HS we're talking mostly college but those teachers aren't doing anyone any good.

I was replying to Bishop, who was talking about HS.

[Chubby]

I wouldn't take it that far. I think the students were looking more for the easy way out on what to study rather then how to suck up to the teacher. If the teacher says the final in non-comprehensive and that your grade will soley be based on your test scores then the students realize they can not show up half the time, cram the night before the test, and immediately forget everything they learned after the test is over.

Then the professor shouldn't structure his class that way because HE/SHE is taking the easy way out also. Make attendance part of the grade, problem solved. I don't see anything wrong with asking how the class will be evaluated, that's the whole point of a syllabus and I know a lot of profs don't like those.

[primelord]

Then the professor shouldn't structure his class that way because HE/SHE is taking the easy way out also. Make attendance part of the grade, problem solved. I don't see anything wrong with asking how the class will be evaluated, that's the whole point of a syllabus and I know a lot of profs don't like those.
I don't see anything wrong with it either. I was just saying the reason Samdari was annoyed is he knew that is what they were getting at. My real point was not whether it was right or wrong, but rather they weren't looking for a way to suck up. :)

[BishopMVP]

I wouldn't take it that far. I think the students were looking more for the easy way out on what to study rather then how to suck up to the teacher. If the teacher says the final in non-comprehensive and that your grade will soley be based on your test scores then the students realize they can not show up half the time, cram the night before the test, and immediately forget everything they learned after the test is over.Supposedly the goal of a kid going to school is that he learns the material. Assuming we have a class with no papers, etc. just one final, if someone can show up the last day of class and know more than someone who came every day, why doesn't he deserve a better grade? That's more or less how it works in the real world. Sure, it hurts the kids that aren't as smart and have to work harder, but life isn't fair and refusing to acknowledge that just leaves kids unprepared for life after college.

And Sabotai - they're bad too, but you can be sure due to tenure they'll never be fired :rolleyes:

[Ajaxab]

Supposedly the goal of a kid going to school is that he learns the material. Assuming we have a class with no papers, etc. just one final, if someone can show up the last day of class and know more than someone who came every day, why doesn't he deserve a better grade? That's more or less how it works in the real world. Sure, it hurts the kids that aren't as smart and have to work harder, but life isn't fair and refusing to acknowledge that just leaves kids unprepared for life after college.

And Sabotai - they're bad too, but you can be sure due to tenure they'll never be fired :rolleyes:

I guess that's where we have different notions of what education is supposed to be about. If education is about product, then I have no problem with BishopMVP 's argument. Some courses might be entirely product based. In that case, it doesn't matter if a kid shows up at all the entire semester and then aces the exam.

However, I don't see learning as exclusively product based and as such, I try to make my classes as much about process as product. A lot of kids don't understand that, but the ones who come to realize this take much more away from the class than the ones who don't. I will reward those who give me a good product, but I will also reward those who attempt to learn something in the process of doing a project rather than simply hand me a product. Most students who bring me drafts of their assignments demonstrate that they care about learning as a process (apart from those who naively ask me to "correct" their papers). Perhaps this is a romanticized notion of what education is all about, but I want to reward those who learn how to think by actively working through the process rather than producing product.

[AZSpeechCoach]

Amen Ajaxab. I fall into the "Performance Based Assessments" philosophy (or at least I did until my school went to my district's idea of "Standards Based Education" which has nothing to do with actual educational standards). However, part of the performance is demonstrating that they know how to do it right. Give a fish, they'll eat for a day, teach them to fish and they'll eat for a lifetime.