OT: Hold 'Em - Play along in this hand

[primelord]

I saw this hand elsewhere and I thought it was really interesting. I can almost certainly say I would not have played it this way and I am curious how the other players here would have tackled this one. I am going to do this in a step by step process and give people time to weigh in on what they would do at each step. I don't know how that will work, but we will see how it goes.

This hand was played at a Party Poker 2/4 table:

Our Hero is in the SB and is dealt As Ks

1 EP player, 2 MP players, and the CO all limp in. I am quite certain everyone here would raise so we don't need to contemplate that move. Our Hero raises. The BB folds and everyone else calls.

4 players to the flop for 4.5 BBs.

The flop comes Qs 5h 6h.

Our Hero.....

Feel free to give reasoning behind why you chose the line you do.

[AnalBumCover]

Bet on the Flop. Make the Heart and straight draws pay for their card. If there's a raise behind you, Fold.

[Coffee Warlord]

I second ABC's line.

[primelord]

Bet on the Flop. Make the Heart and straight draws pay for their card. If there's a raise behind you, Fold.
You would fold to a raise holding two over cards, and a backdoor straight flush draw?

[cthomer5000]

bet the flop.

if raised, call and see the turn.

It heavily depends on what falls there.

FWIW, I don't *always* raise with a hand like AK in the blinds.

[SirFozzie]

Check/fold or check/call at best. You have nothing, but a dream at this point.

Three to a straight flush... needing runner runner? Yick.
You do have overcards to the board, but you only have two cards left, and approximately 6 outs to a winner twice.

[Coffee Warlord]

That hand is just asking for disaster. Too chancy of deal to bank on a straight flush with only 2 cards remaining, and I doubt a pair of Aces or Kings is gonna get it done. Not worth throwing a lot of money into the middle.

[Radii]

You definitely bet out. If you're called, see what the turn card is and decide what to do.

If you're raised, I think you have to at least call. If its heads up, you may well re-raise, if its still multi-way when the raise hits I think you have to just call. So very many people will bet or raise a flush draw here, if you get heads up, you can make a case to keep pushing. The problem of course is, what do you do if you miss the turn? this sucks out of position, do you keep pushing the turn no matter what?

But just on this street... bet the flop, call a raise if the raise is right behind you and lots call, re-raise to limit the field if the raise comes from a late position, and if lots of ppl fold and you are heads up when its back to you? RE-raise or call, very tough decision.

[cthomer5000]

You would fold to a raise holding two over cards, and a backdoor straight flush draw?no way, especially with so many bets in the pot at that point.

10 bets pre-flop.

you make 11
any other callers
someone raises making it 13 minimum.

For another 2 bucks you're looking at a 28 dollar pot plus any addition callers to the raise.

[cthomer5000]

That hand is just asking for disaster. Too chancy of deal to bank on a straight flush with only 2 cards remaining, and I doubt a pair of Aces or Kings is gonna get it done. Not worth throwing a lot of money into the middle.So you're suggesting check/fold? I don't see how that could possibly be the right play here.

[AnalBumCover]

ok, now what if there are two raises behind?

[Coffee Warlord]

No no, read my first post. Bet on it, but fold to a raise behind. I'll pay for the next card and make everyone else do the same, but I'm not going to go much higher.

[Radii]

ok, now what if there are two raises behind?

Now its become an easy fold.

[cthomer5000]

ok, now what if there are two raises behind?
easy fold. in my experience that's usually two pair or a set.

[cthomer5000]

No no, read my first post. Bet on it, but fold to a raise behind. I'll pay for the next card and make everyone else do the same, but I'm not going to go much higher.
I think if you bet, you absolutely have to be ready to call a single raise. There is too much money in there to fold now.

Also, the position of the raise matters. If you get a raise right after you and a couple people call that, you call easily.

[QuikSand]

Trying not to use the meta-clue that this eventually becomes "very interesting," I think I'm with the majority here -- I bet out, and I'll call one raise here -- but I'd probably need to hit the turn (at least my suit, or a non-heart A/K) to stay in past that.

I think there is also a schol of thought that you can check rasie in a situation like this - nominally to "clean up" your overcard outs. Since you wouldn't mind getting the turn card for free anyway - I could see some logic here, especially if the original bettor ends up being someone from fairly late position.

[Coffee Warlord]

I think if you bet, you absolutely have to be ready to call a single raise. There is too much money in there to fold now.

Also, the position of the raise matters. If you get a raise right after you and a couple people call that, you call easily.

Good point there. I'm not sold, but I don't have much problem calling a single raise. It's pretty much up in the air.

[TRO]

I'm in the bet out camp, position of raise and how many callers of said raise will help make my next decision.

[primelord]

Sorry guys I got caught on a call. I will update this in just a couple of minutes

[primelord]

Ok our Hero does in fact bet out, EP calls, MP1 folds, CO raises, (since we have already hashed out the what if he raises situation), Hero calls, EP calls. 3 players to the turn for 7.5 BBs.

The turn is the 2c.

So the board is Qs 5h 6h 2c.

Our Hero....

[primelord]

I am also curious as to what people are putting the CO on at this point.

[MrIllini]

check/fold

[cthomer5000]

Ok our Hero does in fact bet out, EP calls, MP1 folds, CO raises, (since we have already hashed out the what if he raises situation), Hero calls, MP1 calls. 3 players to the turn for 7.5 BBs.

The turn is the 2c.

So the board is Qs 5h 6h 2c.

Our Hero....I assume you mean EP calls?

3 players. Us, EP, CO.

Qs 5h 6h 2c

our flush is dead, our miracle straight is dead. We're up against 1 flush draw, and the CO probably has Q_

In theory we have 6 outs, although it's possible us hitting a pair would give the CO two pair.

Check/fold here.

[cthomer5000]

dola. The guy must have at least a pocket pair. We can't really beat anything but a bluff, and with another guy to worry about, no way I can see calling a bet here.

[primelord]

I assume you mean EP calls?
Yes I did. Thanks. I have corrected it above.

[SirFozzie]

check/fold. DO. NOT. CHASE.

[Radii]

Check/fold. Of course you may have the best hand. But what could the others be on?

straight draws, as long as it wasn't 34 that's pretty harmless.

Flush draws. Now that worries me. You can't be confidant that a flush draw isn't a flush draw + a deuce or a queen, so you still can't confidantly call this down with nothing, and two of your outs are gone.

Top pair, bad kicker. QJ, QT, Q9, Q-anything. You've got 6 outs.

Top pair/ace/king kicker. You've got 3 outs.

If one of them has two pair or just hit a striaght you're drawing dead.

I'm not really putting the CO on anythign right now. I would guess the CO either has QJ/QT and hit top pair, or has an ace-high flush draw.

But that's not why i say check/fold here. IF you thought your top pair if it hit would be good, you have the odds to call a bet. You're about 6.5:1 against hitting top pair. You'll be getting 8.5:1 on a call here. But at a partypoker low limit table, forget it, this just isn't worth it when first to act.

if i'm on the button I may well bet here to see if I get raised, and to see if I can't check it down for free. But first to act into a raiser? forget it, its just not worth it to hope that ace high holds up against two opponents or that none of them have A5/A6/AQ or a flush draw to totally kill the few outs you have left.

Check/fold.

[primelord]

I want to give it a couple more minutes to see if anyone else wants to weigh in.

[Radii]

Another comment: If your opponents are capable of folding a hand like A5 in the face of a lot of agression, or if a draw might go away then you have the additional hope of getting your opponents to fold, then you can bet. that is why I suggested a possible re-raise on the flop followed by a bet here, but this is a low limit party poker table, that's much more likely to make you lose a few extra bets than it is to win you the pot.

[cthomer5000]

Another comment: If your opponents are capable of folding a hand like A5 in the face of a lot of agression, or if a draw might go away then you have the additional hope of getting your opponents to fold, then you can bet. that is why I suggested a possible re-raise on the flop followed by a bet here, but this is a low limit party poker table, that's much more likely to make you lose a few extra bets than it is to win you the pot.
It is tough to tell sometimes. I've found myself folding the best hand a couple times recently when I had a shitty kicker. Still, with nothing against 2 opponents, I think it's nearly impossible to call a bet here.

[primelord]

Ok the concensus seems to be check/fold.

Our Hero checks the turn, EP checks, CO bets, Our Hero....

Does everyone fold in this situation? No one calls getting 8.5:1 after a more or less blank hits on the turn?

[Radii]

It is tough to tell sometimes. I've found myself folding the best hand a couple times recently when I had a shitty kicker. Still, with nothing against 2 opponents, I think it's nearly impossible to call a bet here.

Definitely. And if you intended to add fold equity then you had to re-raise the flop, which we didn't do here, so you're either check/calling or check/folding in our situation. Seems like everyone agrees with the fold (so that means everyone's going to check and the ace of hearts hits the river, doesn't it?)

[SirFozzie]

Ok: here's the thing: you are getting 8.5 to 1 pot odds as it stands. However, with the opponent AT LEAST on a pair, maybe with a set or two pair, I think you're a better than 8.5-1 dog, with your best hand being a pair of aces or kings, which very possibly could be beaten already

[Radii]

Ok: here's the thing: you are getting 8.5 to 1 pot odds as it stands. However, with the opponent AT LEAST on a pair, maybe with a set or two pair, I think you're a better than 8.5-1 dog, with your best hand being a pair of aces or kings, which very possibly could be beaten already

I agree with this. Still fold :)

[primelord]

Ok I think anyone who was going to call ould have done so by now.

Well our Hero agrees with all of you that calling is a poor play.

After the CO bet our Hero raises, EP folds, and the CO calls.

2 players to the river for 11.5 BBs.

The river is the 5d. Making the final board Qs 5h 6h 2c 5d.

Our Hero....

[SirFozzie]

Limit holdem, might want to try to steal with a bet, otherwise check/folds.

[cthomer5000]

our non-listening hero bets, CO raises, hero calls

CO turns over 25 for a full house?

[Radii]

The river is the 5d. Making the final board Qs 5h 6h 2c 5d.

Our Hero....

bet/call. You just represented pocket queens. Maybe you're up against the one of the few 2/4 players who could lay down any sort of a hand here.

[primelord]

bet/call. You just represented pocket queens. Maybe you're up against the one of the few 2/4 players who could lay down any sort of a hand here.
Is your bet call suggesting that you call a raise after you bet? That is just surprising to me since you were ready to fold the turn and still haven't improved.

[QuikSand]

At this point, given the check raise bluff on the turn, we absolutely have to bet out and continue to represent strength. If the CO beat us with a 5, fine - he'll likely raise and we're beat. More likely, he has a Q and will make a crying call here. But the point of the whole move on the turn was to at least have him entertain the option of folding - either right there, or to this bet. Gotta follow through.

[Radii]

I really don't like this play by the way. If you want to be agressive, keep raisig on the flop. If you'd re-raised on the flop and bet out on the turn you're much mroe likely to really know where you stand.

As it is you called the flop, checked to a raiser who is almost obligated to bet, and check-raised into a large pot where anyone with any sort of a hand has the odds to call it down.

Straightforward agressive play would have defined the CO's hand better, and would have given us a better chance to win the pot IMO.

this seems like someone just getting too complicated and "tricky" for his own good

[primelord]

At this point, given the check raise bluff on the turn, we absolutely have to bet out and continue to represent strength. If the CO beat us with a 5, fine - he'll likely raise and we're beat. More likely, he has a Q and will make a crying call here. But the point of the whole move on the turn was to at least have him entertain the option of folding - either right there, or to this bet. Gotta follow through.
The thoughts of calling a riase here are very interesting to me. The CO only called the Hero's raise on the turn. So what would he raise that we could possibly beat in this situation?

It seems to me if you are going to bet the only reason to do so is so you can safely fold to a raise. Although I do suppose the pot is awful big to be folding for just one more bet.

[primelord]

Results

Our Hero checks, and the CO checks.

Our Hero turns up AKs and the CO mucks. Our Hero's hand is good. :)

[cthomer5000]

Results

Our Hero checks, and the CO checks.

Our Hero turns up AKs and the CO mucks. Our Hero's hand is good. :)
But if you play this hand like this every time on Party, I think you're gonna drop a lot of money.

[primelord]

Now I found this hand very interesting for several reasons. The first being that I agreed with the majority of you throughout the hand. I would not have played this hand this way and I likely would have made the same plays that most people suggested. I also find it interesting because it was played by a person who is a limit Hold 'Em professional, and is widely thought of as a phenomenal limit Hold 'Em player.

[SirFozzie]

And thus we learn...

PartyPoker is full of fish.

[Radii]

Is your bet call suggesting that you call a raise after you bet? That is just surprising to me since you were ready to fold the turn and still haven't improved.


I was more than willing to give it up on the turn, but now that we've taken it this far, we're pretty much obligated to bet the river, and once we do that, there's 14+ BB in the pot if its raised back to us. the CO only has to be bluffing 1 time out of 14 to make a call correct here. I stick with my more recent post describing why I hate the way this hand was played, in part because it puts you in this position to give up 2 extra bets on the river, but I think you have to do it.

[cthomer5000]

Now I found this hand very interesting for several reasons. The first being that I agreed with the majority of you throughout the hand. I would not have played this hand this way and I likely would have made the same plays that most people suggested. I also find it interesting because it was played by a person who is a limit Hold 'Em professional, and is widely thought of as a phenomenal limit Hold 'Em player.
his read on the specific player could have had a lot to do with it. I can't imagine he would regularly make this play.

[primelord]

Well the interesting thing about this is after reading the hand I thought that it was bad play, but after reading through the discussion some more I think I am convinced this hand was 1) played perfectly and 2) should always be played this way int his situation. I will give some of the explination here in a minute

[primelord]

his read on the specific player could have had a lot to do with it. I can't imagine he would regularly make this play.
He had no prior read on the players at the table. I should have mentioned that up front.

[primelord]

Here are a few posts with an explination of the play. I apologize if it seems a bit disjointed since it is throughout a thread.

On the internet? Of course they do. Heck, I had to beg people on this forum to check the turn with a draw in a thread the other day.

To address other questions, I definitely call the river. However, it's really not that important since all but the strongest players will be checking behind unless they have a monster, which they don't, or they'd have 3-bet the turn.

I want to address this thread more, because I really think checkraising the turn here is important, but frankly, I'm too tired to do it justice. Basically, you have a great shot of having the lead. You can't allow the 3rd player with either a weak made hand or 6 outs to call. Even if you are behind to a pair, you have 6 outs against the CO a huge % of the time.

The pot size dictates that you can't fold, so investing this incremental bet to maximize your chances of winning the pot is absolutely essential. You can fold a better hand if you are behind, you could easily have the best hand, but any non-dominated hand has at least 6 outs to beat you. The CO is more likely than not to be drawing. This is an easy investment of an incremental bet that simply must be made. Just calling here in an 8.5BB pot is terrible.

I hope to expound some more, but I wanted to get something out here for discussion because this is a critical type of play. There is discussion on this type of concept in TOP where you are less than 50% sure you have the best hand, but raising still becomes the correct play because of the chances to get it headsup and the size of the pot.

[primelord]

Another reply...

No, this isn't some random escalation of hostilities.

Again:

1. It is clearly correct to call the turn in this 8.5BB pot.
2. Ultra conservatively I'd guess we have at LEAST a 20% chance of being in front of the CO.
3. We have a high chance of folding out the rest of the field since it is just a single opponent who has shown no strength at all.

These factors make throwing 2 bets into the pot instead of 1 the absolutely correct play. Frankly, I'd put our chances of being in front of the CO at over 40%.

If you really think that CO has a queen, set or two pair more than 4x as often as he has a draw then I don't care if you are playing internet or live, you are playing way too scared. I'm not assuming anyone is playin psychotic at all. I'm assuming that they are playing poker .

[primelord]

And finally this post is from Ed Miller who is writing the Low Limit Hold 'Em book with Sklansky and Malmuth for 2+2.

Clark, do you call a river bet?

You guys seem to think this is the interesting part of the hand. It's not! The interesting part is the play on the turn... which has ESSENTIALLY NOTHING to do with whether you would call a bet on the river.

Who cares if you call a bet on the river? First of all, very few people will actually BET this river. Second of all, it's a big pot and you have a bluff-catcher. Calling really can't be too big a mistake.

I think people on this forum suffer from what David called Tommy Angeloitis. Now I'm not sure the name is fair, but the problem is very real... you guys are hesitant to play marginal hands in spots that are profitable but uncomfortable. Yes, you aren't thrilled that you have unimproved ace-king in a big pot, but that's what you got, and you have to make the best play with it. It seems that some of you don't want to make the correct play because it MIGHT (note caps) leave you with a "tough" river decision.

Who cares! If the guy bets the river... congratulations to him. He might win an extra bet from you. Most players don't play well enough to bet there, and those that do... well, they play goot! But you can't be playing meekly with AK just because uncomfortable things might happen.

(Note that this post is now becoming more general in scope.)

I don't know how many of you read Rolf Slotboom's two part extravaganza on playing AK from the small blind, but he basically barfed Tommy Angeloitis all over the page. He wants to fold AK to a raise from the small blind because (a paraphrase of his article), "What if you miss? Won't that suck? You will have ace-high out of position."

Well yes, sometimes you miss and have ace-high out of position. That is often an unpleasant situation (when your opponent doesn't run in fear on the flop since you 3-bet him from the small blind with AK... which they do like at least a third of the time anyway). But just because something is DIFFICULT or UNCOMFORTABLE does not mean it is UNPROFITABLE. Furthermore, "making the hand easier to play," "finding out where you're at," and "avoiding a tough decision," are VERY RARELY VALID EXCUSES FOR MAKING ANY PLAY IN LIMIT HOLD 'EM. It's nonsense. Stop thinking like this, guys.

Don't miss river bets because, "What if this guy who has never bluff-raised anyone in his life decides to throw that all out the window and pull a world class play on me this hand?" Don't miss KEY turn check-raises because, "What if he bets the river?" Who !@#$ing cares.

That is all.

[primelord]

The entire thread can be found here if you guys are interested in reading the whole thing.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=791991&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

[Radii]

That's very interesting. It also goes against one of the most fundamental rules that I play by at low limits... "don't try anything tricky against players who aren't paying enough attention to see what you're doing"

But it is an interesting way to look at things, and a new way to look at a situation in poker is always worth reading.

[primelord]

That's very interesting. It also goes against one of the most fundamental rules that I play by at low limits... "don't try anything tricky against players who aren't paying enough attention to see what you're doing"

But it is an interesting way to look at things, and a new way to look at a situation in poker is always worth reading.
See I don't think it is really being all that tricky. The Hero had put Co most likely on a flush draw. Now he figures the EP player must not have a Q because they have shown no strength. However there is a good chance the EP player has something because he continues to call bets. So he may have forced out the better hand with the check raise on the turn.

And since the CO only called the turn check raise he must not have a huge hand so he is very likely to go ahead and check through the river even with a Q. So it's not tricky as much as just isolating the player you have out on a draw.

[MJ4H]

I saw this thread yesterday I think and read it with interest. I learned a lot from that thread. I like the idea of you posting it here. Good choice of material.

[cthomer5000]

I saw this thread yesterday I think and read it with interest. I learned a lot from that thread. I like the idea of you posting it here. Good choice of material.
2+2 has the occasional good thread surrounded by way too much trash for me to wade through. I find the place pretty annoying on the whole.

[MJ4H]

2+2 has the occasional good thread surrounded by way too much trash for me to wade through. I find the place pretty annoying on the whole.

I find the place a goldmine of good advice for my game.