EPL Season Thread...

[Chief Rum]

I have no idea if anyone will post in this at all. I just know that the Tim Howard thread seemed to be the "English football" thread last season, and I figured, like hockey, we could use a new one.

So I am posting in here. I just finished watching a replay of the Community Shield, so I thought I would throw out some thoughts. Something to note--I am relatively new to the football scene in England, so forgive me if I say anything that just sounds like complete rubbish to a true fan.

--I thought Howard looked pretty good in goal when his defense played well. He seemed a bit unsteady, though, as if he wasn't in complete control.

--Who needs Ljungberg, Pires and Vieira? Reyes, Pennant and Fabregas looked great.

--Pennant is going to be kicking himself for a while for missing that wide open goal. It couldn't have been more open.

--Howard's save on Henry's kick that set up Pennant's blown shot was brilliant.

--I have never seen Rio Ferdinand play. I just know he's supposed to be very good. And I know it's not fair to rate Man Utd's defense against a team with as many weapons as the Gunners. But, good Lord, do the Devils need Ferdinand back. I thought their backline played horrible. Howard was left to dry on the Gilberto goal, there weren't enough defenders around to help him on the Reyes goal, and the third Arsenal goal was an own off of Silvstre. Ugh. When is Ferdinand eligible to return? October?

--Diego Forlan, with those dreads, has to be the ugliest man on Earth, or at least east of Mike Ricci.

--If Fabregas plays like this, I don't think Arsenal is going to worry about Vieira leaving.

--It was nice to see Gaël Clichy play, since he is a member of my Tamworth Lambs in my CM03/04 dynasty. I had never seen him live or in a pitcure yet (and that's still the case for most of my "real" players).

--First time I ever saw Thierry Henry, too. Didn't know he's black. So sue me. :) He looked like he was already in mid-season form.

--I thought Alan Smith looked pretty good in his debut, too, but, Man Utd, is really going to miss Ruud if they don't get more offense going.

--Poison Chalice, lol. The announcers made mention of that, and I had never heard that before. Apparently only one Community Shield winner has gone on to win the league in the last ten years (Newcastle in '94-95, I think). Does this mean Arsenal, coming off of the best club season in league history last year, is doomed? :)

I would give a go at predictions, but I don't know nearly enough about the EPL right now to even try. You more knowledgeable fans are welcome to give it a go, though,a nd maybe as I pick up on some things, I'll give it a shot.

Oh second question. Anyone think my Boro can make a run at the top five of the table? I love some of the signings we made this offseason.

CR

[SirFozzie]

Go Cambridge United!

[RPI-Fan]

Johnny Spector's prospects for cracking the first XI at 18 years are looking better and better...

[Chief Rum]

Johnny Spector's prospects for cracking the first XI at 18 years are looking better and better...

He didn't embarass himself out there today, but then he didn't face Arsenal's top players, nor was he on long (late sub). I really couldn't offer an opinion of him just yet. As for his age, if Fabregas can be that solid at 17, why not Spector? :)

CR

[McSweeny]

go Nottingham Forest!

[RPI-Fan]

He didn't embarass himself out there today, but then he didn't face Arsenal's top players, nor was he on long (late sub). I really couldn't offer an opinion of him just yet. As for his age, if Fabregas can be that solid at 17, why not Spector? :)

CR

1) Spector is a defender, not an attacking middie.
2) He looked just as good in the CWT.
3) ManU's defense is, as you said, crap right now. He's rapidly approaching John O'Shea, who has been shite lately.

[Chief Rum]

Gotchya on the second two. As for the first, I know Spector is a defender. If that's a reference to defense being harder for younger players to learn, than I accept one as well. If it's because you didn't think I knew Spector was a defender, you're wrong. ;)

CR

[RPI-Fan]

Gotchya on the second two. As for the first, I know Spector is a defender. If that's a reference to defense being harder for younger players to learn, than I accept one as well. If it's because you didn't think I knew Spector was a defender, you're wrong. ;)

CR

Sorry if I came off like a jerk there - list form was just the easiest way for me to get my points across.:)

Yea', I'm sure you knew he was a defender. Was just remarking that it's a lot easier to blossom as a young player in an offensive role than it is on defense.

[Chief Rum]

Naw, don't worry, didn't see you coming off as a jerk at all. I just thought maybe you were correcting me on something I got right (I hate that ;) ). As I surmised might be the case, you were just noting the differences between defenders and midfielders developemnt, which I admit is a subject I don't know much about.

CR

[Crapshoot]

I posted this at primer, but I think its appropriate here:
I think Arsenals’ biggest problem is that they have absolutely no defensive depth- now that the Trabelsi move fell through. You have Cambell, Toure (who I think might take a John o Shea like step-back) Lauren, and Cole - and no one really behind them. Pascal Cygan doesnt exactly inspire respect from opposing strikers. Clichy is interesting, but him and Senderos have little to no experience. For all Wenger’s buys, I think a CD would be a nice pickup- a Ehigou type, or even a Josemi type- especially at the price. Carrick would be a nice signing for midfield depth- but that defense scares me.

Better team than Man U no doubt- Viera's better than anyone MAn U has in the center, and Henry's better than Ruud. However, Man U has depth,and might just outlast them IMO-at defense, they go Neville, Neville, O Shea, Silvestre, Heinze, Ferdinand and Brown- far more than Arse. In midfield, Arsenal has Flamini, Carrick Hopefully, Ludgenberg, Pennant, Pires, Viera, and Van Pierese- compared to Keane, Giggs, Ronaldo , Fortune, Djemba-Djemba, and Scholes, that's pretty even. Up front- you got Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Smith, and Forlan vs Henry, Reyes, Bergkamp- about even, - though again, depth favors Man U.

Seriously- on the best 11 , Ill take Arsenal all year- given the inevitable injuries, Im tempted towards MAn U.

[Crapshoot]

Edit- forgot Pique in defense, hows highly rated by all accounts- and Liam Miller in the midfield, who they signed from Celtic.

[3ric]

Go Liverpool!

A Rafael Benitez-coached team with Cissé-Owen-Baros as attackers sound really scary... :)

[andy m]

shame liverpool have a weak defence then. ;)

good to see some americans attempting to show a nice and basic beginners grasp of the english league here. remember though: basing your knowledge of players on what you have learned from playing championship manager is not a good idea.

[Chief Rum]

shame liverpool have a weak defence then. ;)

good to see some americans attempting to show a nice and basic beginners grasp of the english league here. remember though: basing your knowledge of players on what you have learned from playing championship manager is not a good idea.

Now, now, no need to make generalized assumptions here, especially where not true. I didn't watch the Charity Shield on a computer-generated 2D pitch, but on an actual TV screen with real players.

I readily admit my knowledge is tiny compared to lifelong fans, but that doesn't mean I lack the ability to differentiate between the game on TV and what I get from CM.

I will gladly take whatever wisdoms you true fans are willing to impart, but really, if you feel you have to tell us Americans not to base what our knowledge of players off of CM (rather than it being understood), that rather shows you have very little regard for our discerning abilities, doesn't it?

I feel we're a little bit more intelligent than you give us credit for.

CR

[Katon]

I posted this at primer, but I think its appropriate here:
I think Arsenals’ biggest problem is that they have absolutely no defensive depth- now that the Trabelsi move fell through. You have Cambell, Toure (who I think might take a John o Shea like step-back) Lauren, and Cole - and no one really behind them. Pascal Cygan doesnt exactly inspire respect from opposing strikers. Clichy is interesting, but him and Senderos have little to no experience. For all Wenger’s buys, I think a CD would be a nice pickup- a Ehigou type, or even a Josemi type- especially at the price. Carrick would be a nice signing for midfield depth- but that defense scares me.

Better team than Man U no doubt- Viera's better than anyone MAn U has in the center, and Henry's better than Ruud. However, Man U has depth,and might just outlast them IMO-at defense, they go Neville, Neville, O Shea, Silvestre, Heinze, Ferdinand and Brown- far more than Arse. In midfield, Arsenal has Flamini, Carrick Hopefully, Ludgenberg, Pennant, Pires, Viera, and Van Pierese- compared to Keane, Giggs, Ronaldo , Fortune, Djemba-Djemba, and Scholes, that's pretty even. Up front- you got Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Smith, and Forlan vs Henry, Reyes, Bergkamp- about even, - though again, depth favors Man U.

Seriously- on the best 11 , Ill take Arsenal all year- given the inevitable injuries, Im tempted towards MAn U.

Forlan over Solskjaer up front for Man U?

In any case, I think you're overestimating Man U's depth slightly. Having bodies is useful, certainly, but some of those players are just bodies: Forlan, Djemba-Djemba, Bellion . . . if they get into a match, you're going to notice a significant dropoff. There are very few spots in Man U's lineup where they can see their starter injured without a major loss of quality. Look at Chelsea last year, for example: we had plenty of players who could play on the left wing or in goal, but we had nobody who could play nearly as well as Carlo Cudicini and Damien Duff, so when they got injured we had serious problems. I'd actually rate Arsenal's depth higher than Man U's in midfield and up front, just because there isn't as much of a drop. Of course, Arsenal have no cover at the back, so overall I'd still give Man U a slight edge.

[MIJB#19]

I don't care who's gonna win.
I only want to see the Dutchmen play well, because I only use Dutchmen in the Yahoo Premiership Fantasy Football game.

Kluivert, Van Nistelrooij and Hasselbaink; it could be a Dutch party in the goal scorers tables at season's end. :cool:

[moriarty]

Go Liverpool!

A Rafael Benitez-coached team with Cissé-Owen-Baros as attackers sound really scary... :)

I honestly think Liverpool will sell Baros before the year is out and go with a Cisse-Owen-Pongol rotation (they keep hinting to Barcelona that Baros is interested, but so far Barcelona hasn't taken the bait). Cisse looked sweet in the US.

Transition continues for Liverpool - Heskey (finally) out, Diouf soon to be gone, Murphy on the block, and possibly Finnan as well. I'm hoping we can bring in a creative midfielder to help out Gerrard. Early season's probably going to be rough w/ all the turnover, but should be an interesting team in the second half of the season.

[bhlloy]

Andy M - no need to be a jackass. Lot of very knowledgable American soccer fans on here.

United look like the solid #3 candidate out of the big three, defensively they are horrible and I cannot believe that Ferguson has done nothing to improve from last year (not strictly true - we'll see how Heinze pans out) Ferdinand is good but he will be rusty until Christmas at least, he's not going to save the title for them on his own. Having said that, every time United look like an inferior team they pull the title out of the hat so we'll see.

Alan Smith showed what he is - essentially a very volatile but talented player who can score some great goals. I don't think he's the solid striker United need with Van Nistelrooy out, but when RVN comes back he will be a nice #2.

Viera looks to be as good as gone with Pires giving an interview last night saying he has made up his mind to leave. I honestly don't know where this leaves Arsenal. I can't imagine a worse player for them to lose (maybe Henry).

Fabregas looked very good but there is no way a 17 year old can play even the majority of a season in the Premiership. Wenger said as much after the game that he might have a chance to feature at some point. Him replacing Viera is a pipe dream.

Which leads me to pick Chelsea as my favourites almost by default. Again they have gone and made a load of almost random signings, but they can afford to do it. Maybe not the way to build team chemistry but I think they probably have the strongest squad this year and if Morinho is anywhere near as good a coach as advertised and can adapt to the English game then I think this could be their year.

Liverpool should be much better, they hadn't responded well to Houllier in a long time and have made some nice additions. Just found out they sold Danny Murphy to Spurs which I don't understand as he's always been one of the most underrated players in the league for me.

One more thing... go Cardiff... BLUE ARMY

[Crapshoot]

Forlan over Solskjaer up front for Man U?

In any case, I think you're overestimating Man U's depth slightly. Having bodies is useful, certainly, but some of those players are just bodies: Forlan, Djemba-Djemba, Bellion . . . if they get into a match, you're going to notice a significant dropoff. There are very few spots in Man U's lineup where they can see their starter injured without a major loss of quality. Look at Chelsea last year, for example: we had plenty of players who could play on the left wing or in goal, but we had nobody who could play nearly as well as Carlo Cudicini and Damien Duff, so when they got injured we had serious problems. I'd actually rate Arsenal's depth higher than Man U's in midfield and up front, just because there isn't as much of a drop. Of course, Arsenal have no cover at the back, so overall I'd still give Man U a slight edge.

I knew I had forgotten someone- thanks.
If you note what I said earlier, I did agree that Arsenal had the edge in midfield and up front, simply because they had the best midfielder (though he's gone as of this week to Madrid) and the best striker of the two teams, and that the front 11 quality was better for Arse.

[Crapshoot]

Meh- I see Maniche is an Arsenal uniform come next week - or at least the young Argentinian that's being talked about. Either way, its not a replacement for Viera - who's probably the best midfielder in the world today (yes, I think he's better than Zidane).

[Huckleberry]

I would just like to register my support for Manchester City. That is all.

[Crapshoot]

I would just like to register my support for Manchester City. That is all.

is that support, or a deep hearted article of faith that Keegan can't possibly get them relegated given how much he's spent ? :D

[rufusjonz]

OMG Diego Forlan's hair looked freakin terrible!

GO Chelsea, but i hated them getting rid of Jimmy Floyd

[moriarty]

I would just like to register my support for Manchester City. That is all.

On paper, Man City should be an exciting team to watch: Anelka, Wright-Phillips, Fowler, Sinclair, McManaman, Reyna (homer pick), & James in goal.

Then again, they looked good on paper last year too and they appeared they headed for relegation most of the year.

[Huckleberry]

I'm just a Texan, y'all. :D

My support for Manchester City is based on the fact that "they" were the first Premier League team to hire me in CM. I thanked them by leading them to global domination. I'm also ecstatic about Torquay having been promoted to the Second Division this year. As for the team, we'll see. Seems to my untrained eye that Keegan ain't the brightest bulb in the box, and Anelka has been the subject of transfer rumors, hasn't he?

[Router Help]

Reyna has looked great so far in preseason.

[scooter]

I saw Chelsea here in Seattle as a part of the CWT this summer. Their passing was very good. I also thought at the time that they could use another central defender and they must have been listening because they picked up Carvalho who looked very good at Euro. Many weapons and good depth at most positions - I think they could be a match for anyone this season.

That being said, both Chelsea and Liverpool will be starting with a bit of a disadvantage with new coaching setups. I think this could get them off to a slow start, which may decide the championship.

[condors]

While i believe Chelsea Manutd and Arsenal will be in a dogfight for the title Newcastle, Liverpool and any number of teams could be battling for the 4th place.

I watched the Charity Shield game Manutd has serious issues with thier backline. Any Arsenal player with any kind of pace and courage who challenged the defense to make a play they failed (although neville and fortune we doing ok along the wings but oshea and silvestri in the middle were horrible which is why Gary Neville was moved in from the right)

I am not hopefull of thier chances right now but i will hold off on judgement till Heinze and Ferdinad are back there

[condors]

i just wanted to add i am very thankfull that i could get fox sports world as it was not an option last season for my cable company.

[Katon]

Which leads me to pick Chelsea as my favourites almost by default. Again they have gone and made a load of almost random signings, but they can afford to do it. Maybe not the way to build team chemistry but I think they probably have the strongest squad this year and if Morinho is anywhere near as good a coach as advertised and can adapt to the English game then I think this could be their year.


The signings don't strike me as "completely random". Let's compare the players going out with the players going in:

Out In
Sullivan Pidgely
Ambrosio Cech
Melchiot Ferreira
Desailly Carvalho
Petit Smertin
Veron Tiago
Gronkjaer Robben
Crespo Drogba
Hasslebaink Kezman

Pidgely and Smertin were technically part of the club last year, but they were out on loan the whole time, so they are in effect new players. Every player in the 'in' column is a direct replacement for one of the exiting players; with the arguable exceptions of Smertin and Drogba, they are a clear improvement. Doesn't strike me as being particularly random.

rufusjonz: how'd you pick Jimmy as a favorite player?

[bhlloy]

Random in the sense of signing top players from around Europe with no thought of whether they will fit in or not. Random in the way of yet again having a squad of 20-25 superstars and waiting to see which ones will pan out and which ones won't. Look at the players on the out list... Veron and Crespo were big name signings only a year ago and Mutu is on his way out as well. Any other club wouldn't be able to afford to take this hit and miss approach to signing players but Abramovich's pockets are so deep it doesn't matter.

Smertin is a good one as an example, he was signed as a favour to one of Abramovich's friends in Russia, then Ranieri couldn't find a place in his squad for him so he was loaned out to Portsmouth for the year. £4.5 million pounds as I recall for a player they didn't want or need.

Just doesn't strike me as a way to build team chemistry. Cost them the title last year as they started slowly (even Ranieri said this)

Anyway I think Chelsea start as my favourites, but a turnover of a complete management and coaching staff and 8 first team players is not a good thing. Some of the replacements are very questionable... Cech is an upgrade at keeper, Carvalho is a quality CB and Robben is ahead of Gronjkaer. The rest of the guys on that list... probably not a clear cut upgrade.

[Katon]

Kezman over Hasslebaink is very much a clear-cut upgrade, and given that Veron just can't get adjusted to the Premiership I think you have to call Tiago an upgrade too. If we'd had Ferreira playing instead of Melchiot during the CL semifinal, we might well have won the entire competition. Pidgeley is also less panic-inducing than Sullivan, although third keeper isn't normally a terrifically important position.

Let's move this debate onto more specific grounds, since a thorough defence of every single player we bought would take too long. What players strike you either as being of questionable quality or as being bought with no thought for how they'll fit in?

I'd also disagree with the notion that it was our poor start which cost us the title. We didn't have a poor start. We were right up there at the top until Christmas, when we had our traditional bad patch and fell a bit behind. We then more or less kept pace with Arsenal until after the CL tie, when the entire squad fell flat simultaneously.

[bhlloy]

The only players on that list that I can honestly say are top of Premiership quality are Cech, Carvalho and maybe Robben although he is young. Kezman - top talent but the list of foreign strikers who are top talents in other leagues and can't do anything in the Premiership is too long.
Everyone thought that buying Mutu would make Hasselbaink obsolete last year because Mutu was a can't miss buy and Hasselbaink was... well actually a proven Premiership goalscorer. I think he's given an unneccesarily bad rap but that's another subject.

You obviously are a big Chelsea fan so I'm willing to bow to your superior knowledge as I'm not even a fan of a Premiership club. I don't know, I just don't look at that list and see one world class player on there that is an absolute lock to be a star in the Premiership. Just a list of good foreign players that may well make it but may well be another set of bad buys.

[Desnudo]

Random in the sense of signing top players from around Europe with no thought of whether they will fit in or not. Random in the way of yet again having a squad of 20-25 superstars and waiting to see which ones will pan out and which ones won't. Look at the players on the out list... Veron and Crespo were big name signings only a year ago and Mutu is on his way out as well. Any other club wouldn't be able to afford to take this hit and miss approach to signing players but Abramovich's pockets are so deep it doesn't matter.

Smertin is a good one as an example, he was signed as a favour to one of Abramovich's friends in Russia, then Ranieri couldn't find a place in his squad for him so he was loaned out to Portsmouth for the year. £4.5 million pounds as I recall for a player they didn't want or need.

Just doesn't strike me as a way to build team chemistry. Cost them the title last year as they started slowly (even Ranieri said this)

Anyway I think Chelsea start as my favourites, but a turnover of a complete management and coaching staff and 8 first team players is not a good thing. Some of the replacements are very questionable... Cech is an upgrade at keeper, Carvalho is a quality CB and Robben is ahead of Gronjkaer. The rest of the guys on that list... probably not a clear cut upgrade.

I disagree. The difference this year is that all the signing do make sense and have Mourinho's stamp on them. Technically proficient pacey team players who know how to defend a lead. They replaced a bunch of underperforming solo artists and added a bunch of players who think team first. The only players that seem a bit suspect are Tiago and Drogba. Drogba if only because it cost them so much for him. Their strike force is much, much better this year than last.

[Katon]

I'm not convinced that Hasslebaink is given any worse of a rap than he deserves, but as you say that's another subject. I'm also not inclined to defend the rap without knowing what exactly the rap is, so I'll reserve comment on that issue.

To get back to the main topic, I agree that none of them are certain to be stars, but I would suggest that almost all of them - with the exceptions I mentioned earlier - are near-certainties to be better than the person they're replacing.

Cech over Ambrosio you don't seem to be arguing with, and Pidgely/Sullivan will be irrelevant barring a major string of injuries. Carvalho over Desailly, at this stage in Desailly's career, is another easy choice. I've seen Ferreira and Melchiot against mutual opposition - Jerome Rothen of Monaco - and the difference in their performance under those circumstances is a large part of the reason that Porto shut Monaco out and we conceded five in two games. Melchiot's performance against Monaco was unfortunately typical of his performances towards the end of last year. Given that Ferreira's playing for a coach who knows how to get the best out of him, he's a near-certain improvement. Veron is the classic example of what you're talking about here and Tiago can hardly be any worse-adapted to the Premiership. Robben can cross as well as beat people, which puts him well ahead of Jesper Gronkjaer already. Up front, Kezman is arguably a better bet to succeed than Van Nistelrooij was when he came over (slightly better goalscoring record, no knee injury). There's no guarantee he'll be as good as Van Nistelrooij, but he's likely to be a better player than Hasselbaink.

I'm not convinced Smertin and Drogba are better than Petit and Crespo, but there are valid reasons for those two changes. Smertin's already had a season in the Premiership, where he looked like a good but unexceptional player of the sort you often get around the fringes of top-level teams' midfields (compare him to Nicky Butt or Eric Djemba-Djemba; on last year's form, he's better than either of them), and is more reliably available than the extremely injury-prone Petit. Crespo was never going to be a major success over here as long as his wife and family were staying back in Italy, so we did need to replace him too, and Drogba looks to have more presence in the air than nearly the whole of last year's team.

[Mac Howard]

As a Man Utd fan I was very disappointed with the Community Shield performance but there are two extenuating circumstances to note. First, the missing players: Ronaldo and Heinze at the Olympics. Ferdinand banned. Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Solskjaer, Kleberson, Miller and Brown all injured. That's nine players missing, many of them first choice and the others second choice players.

Second we have had another brain storm from Alex Ferguson. He pointed it out himself as an excuse after the match without a hint of embarrassment. He complained that Neville, Silvestre and Fortune had only 5 days pre-season training each and the rest of the squad little more. Those American fans who payed a fortune to watch Utd's kids play in Chicago etc might well point out that had Alex played his first choice players then they perhaps wouldn't have been so ill prepared. Yes, nice to give them all 4 weeks rest after Euro 2004 but now, with a crucial Champions League qualifier only 2 days away, he has a squad of barely fit, match rusty players who are falling to injury like flies.

Sorry Alex. You didn't engage the brain cell when you came up with this pre-season :(

I have to agree with Katon who pointed out that though Utd may have the numbers in depth the quality falls away very quickly once you move away from the top 13 or 14 players. The Arsenal squad doesn't do that to the same extent. However I would say that the Utd first eleven is at least a match for Arsenal first eleven. Just three of Arsenal's players would interest me - Campbell, Vieira and Henry - and, with Keane and van Nistelrooy, Utd have reasonable replacements for two of those. Campbell would be welcome at Old Trafford any time - a Campbell/Ferdinand centreback pairing is as good as anything in world football.

Of course, there is still every possibility that Vieira will not be an Arsenal player this season.

I must admit that Chelsea have to be favourites for the Championship this season despite my not liking the idea that you can buy the Premiership. Mourinho has bought well and he himself will bring a steel and consistency to the team that was missing with Ranieri. There's no reason to believe that Arsenal will be any worse than last season which means that 90 points is on the cards again. Utd, providing they don't lose too much ground while so many players are out, can match both. I'm beginning to feel sorry for the other clubs as I write this :)

And 'boro, Chief Rum, are an interesting proposition. I like McClaren, I would rather he had come back to Utd than Queiroz, and there's some interesting additions to the squad. They could well be challenging for a European place this season.

[klayman]

Just found out they sold Danny Murphy to Spurs which I don't understand as he's always been one of the most underrated players in the league for me.


Murphy was terrible last season, playing completely uninispired at the best of times. I have no problem getting 3 million for him.

[Crapshoot]

Mac,
you recall a couple of years ago, when a certain team spent a world record sum on a defender, then followed it up by spending 20 million on a striker, and then broke the British transfer record to sign a midfielder ? I dont like Chelsea's unlimited bank accounts either- but Man U certaintly did it on their way to the treble.

[Crapshoot]

Murphy turned down the move to Spurs- if Everton can come up with the money, I expect him to end up there.

While we're on the subject of the EPL- your call for the 3 drops:
Mine:
Everton
Crystal Palace
Norwich

[Mac Howard]

Aadik. Those players were bought by Utd AFTER they had won the treble ;)

[bhlloy]

From the Chelsea fans that I know, the impression I got was that they didn't like Hasselbaink at all and they were mighty relieved when Mutu was signed because finally they had a talented striker to replace him. Hasselbaink showed he was a better Premiership striker than him and kept him out of the side. Ditto with Crespo.

All Hasselbaink has done is score goals at a pretty consistent rate throughout his career yet the impression I get is that he never had much love at Chelsea. Maybe I'm wrong and that wasn't the mood on the terraces, but that was always what I felt was implied.

IF Kezman strikes out (he looks to be legit but strikers you just can't tell) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will miss Jimmy Floyd pretty badly this year.

One of the great things about a new season is optimism about your new club and new signings. I can't imagine everyone of Chelsea's panning out as is often the case with foreign players but if they do it's sure going to be a good season for you guys. Even if they don't I still put Chelsea ahead of Arsenal (minus Viera) and United (minus a lot of guys for the first month or two of the season)

Mac - Solksjaer out for the year has got to hurt. Looks like Diego Forlorn is going to play a big part again this year God help you. Time to get on your knees and pray that Ruud stays healthy.

[Chief Rum]

And 'boro, Chief Rum, are an interesting proposition. I like McClaren, I would rather he had come back to Utd than Queiroz, and there's some interesting additions to the squad. They could well be challenging for a European place this season.

I have quickly become a big McLaren fan. I believe he dreams bigger than the folks at Riverside are used to, and he's dragging them up with him. I think a winning tradition can be built at most major clubs, but sometimes you need that confidence to get it done. And I think McLaren does that, and he has brought in soem guys with the right attitudes, too.

Mendieta and Zenden were huge steps up for us last year, and now we're keeping Zenden. Reiziger is a big time addition on a backline that needs a little support with the captain getting up there (glad he signed his extension, though). Mendieta, Zenden and Parlour give us some legit midfield options. And our depth up front is incredible right now.

I have never been a big fan of Maccarone or of Nemeth, so getting guys like Viduka and Hasselbaink is big for us. Nemeth is perfect, I think, as a scorer/playmaker off the bench. I am concerned about what's going to happen to Juninho, though. I don't want him to leave for Celtic (doesn't seem like anyone involved--except for Celtic--really does want him to leave either).

Maccarone never has become the star he seemed like he could be. :( Is his transfer to Fiorentina a done deal yet? I haven't seen anything new.

I know top five is unlikely, but I think they can make a run at it, especially if some of the lower end heavyweights like Newcastle or Liverpool have poor seasons (yeah, right).

It will be exciting to see them in Europe this season.

CR

[daedalus]

I really like Chelsea this season. I feel bad for Rinieri but, if nothing else, Mourinho seems to have two major plusses going in my opinion: he actually has the backing of ownership and he seems less prone to the constant tinkering of Rinieri. I think that will help the rotation settle in. I'm not much familiar with him but Mourinho seemed to have had a fair rotation going last year at Porto so, if he can quickly pick out who he wants in his rotation and get it established then deal with the dissenters later, I think that'll be an outstanding team. There's just a crazy amount of talent there.

One guy who doesn't seem TOO bad that's going to get lost in the shuffle there is Geremi. I think he was miscasted. I saw him used in a number of places and rarely in the spot that he seems most suited, the defensive midfield slot, which was, of course, occupied by Makelele. I won't happen in a million year but I really wouldn't mind him in that role with the Gunners.

Much as they're evil and we all know we hate them (:D), it feels like Manchester United are getting majorly screwed by all the international play. C Ronaldo spent much of the offseason at the Euro then had to rest and now he'll be going straight to the Olympics. That blows. Especially with Heinze going to the Olympics as well. That's two major players out of your rotation. Sucks. In United's defense (tee hee!) with regards to the Charity Shield, they do have a qualifier coming up soon and Arsenal doesn't.

I don't think they're getting a fair shake as a player in the upcoming season. Henry rates Saha very highly, RvN is, well, RvN and Smith makes a nice complement into that crew. They're getting a bit older but Keane, Scholes and Giggs are still all class. Plus, Scholes won't have international commitments to worry about anymore. I'm kinda sad that they got rid of Butts since I thought he was solid. I sort of feel like he's one of those guys, like Danny Ainge, you hate when he's on the other team but love when he's on yours. I like Fortune from the limited amount I saw him at last year's tour of the US and I think he can contribute. I also think C Ronaldo was just getting used to the premiership and started to show his quality at the end of the season. After his performance at the Euro and what can maybe be expected at the Olympic, he'll be coming into the season on a high note and rested against tired legs. I am curious as to how O'Shea will turn out this year, however. Oh, and I can't stand Djemba-Djemba. He seems to be in some horrible tackles and he whines at EVERYTHING. EVERY-F'ING-THING.

Go Gunners! :D

I like the team. To be honest, much as I value Paddy, at this point, I'd just rather he pack up and head to Bernabeu. I'll take the money and the Argentinian kid and go from there. As has been said, as good as Cesc has looked, if (when?) Paddy leaves, I don't think he'll be in there. At least initially. My guess would be Edu and Gilberto to open the season in the middle. I think Flamini (once all that mess is settled) and Mascherano, if (PLEASE, let it be WHEN) we get him will get the starting nod before Cesc will. Carrick as well, I believe, if rumours are to be believed. I don't know much about Carrick other than that he's left-footed and is apparently skilled. If that's the case, I think it can definitely be a positive since my theory on why the offense was so much better with Edu in the lineup last year had to do with the fact that Arsenal's offense comes predominantly from the left side (the Cole-Pires-Henry line). Too bad Ray Parlour left, he would have been great to have in this situation. I'm happy with the situation on the outside with Pires/Reyes on the left and Ljungberg/Pennant on the right. I would like that right-side spot become David Bentley's next year when he comes back. Of course, I wouldn't mind it too much if Juventus wants to give us 10 large for Freddie and we convert some of that into Shaun Wright-Phillips.

Aadik . . . Although I would love to see an Ehiogu or a Southgate come in as well, I have a tough time seeing that happening since it doesn't seem to fit very well with The Boss' modus operandi. To be honest, after all I've read, I'm pretty glad the Trabelsi deal fell through. In spite of all the talent he is said to have, he sounds like an annoying one. I'd rather not have someone I can't root for on the squad. With Paddy on his way out, Wenger probably won't chase Sagnol either. Which I'm glad of for the same reason. Right now, Clichy is Cole's second. Wenger seemed to have rated Hoyte highly enough to feel confident about letting Volz go and he's apparently the current second for Lauren. Maybe Wenger is hoping for lightning to strike twice and have Hoyte come up big in the same way as Clichy did last year? If we're lucky, maybe that'll lead Lauren right out the door. One of the American Gooners, Daniel Karbassiyoon, has been spending time at fullback. Maybe Wenger is hoping for another good conversion like with Cole. Hoyte has also been getting time in the middle along with Sanderos this preseason. They're next up on the centreback list. With Sol out for an extended period of time, we'll see if The Boss hand that spot to Sanderos or Cygan. I'm hoping for Sanderos but I think it'll be Cygan. For now. I don't know that I foresee the same problem for Toure as O'Shea had last year. I can't see Toure having issue with complacency if, in fact, that was O'Shea's problem last year as was suggested at times. I'm also still hoping we'll get a chance to sign his brother, if for no other reason than that it would be cool to have a player on the squad name YaYa. Yeah. Frankie Simek would have been next up in line, I think, behind Sanderos and Hoyte since he wore the captain's armband on the reserve squad more than a few times last year. But he apparently has some minor back problem at this time. Overall, I'm not too unhappy with this crew as is. Of course, that MAY change after bad games without Sol.

When Paddy leaves and Mascherano comes in, I wouldn't be surprised to see Wenger hold and start the season as is before making a big move in January again since that will give him a chance to see how the season develops. I would like to see somebody who can play both centreback and right back so I don't have to suffer through more of Lauren's "defense".

Alright, I'd be happy with Gallas. :D

[Chief Rum]

Stay away from Ehiogu and Southgate! :)

CR

[daedalus]

Stay away from Ehiogu and Southgate! :)Alright, alright . . . keep Ehiogu, then. :D

[Chief Rum]

Alright, alright . . . keep Ehiogu, then. :D

Grrr. :mad:

Like Arsenal really needs the help anyway (compared to the Boro at least). ;)

CR

[condors]

I really don't understand some transfers

I see that newcastle and aston villa are interested in buying james beattie for around 6 million. If i am Southampton i tell them to get lost. Beattie has been a quality striker and frankly i thought he should have ended up in old trafford in the last offseason (although i am happy with saha and smith) I don't think Southampton can get a better player than Beattie with that 6 million and i don't think they have a better striker in house. Now i may overate Beattie but i think he is a top 10 EPL striker if he stays healthly will probally be in top 5 in goals again.

I see some decent players get sold for 2-4 million all the time and while they may not be stars they are solid first teamers for the club, now if a team drops a division i understand selling off players but why do midtable teams sell first teamers and weaken the squad for no gain. Its not like southampton is going to enter the owen chase if they sell beattie today

[Katon]

From the Chelsea fans that I know, the impression I got was that they didn't like Hasselbaink at all and they were mighty relieved when Mutu was signed because finally they had a talented striker to replace him. Hasselbaink showed he was a better Premiership striker than him and kept him out of the side. Ditto with Crespo.

All Hasselbaink has done is score goals at a pretty consistent rate throughout his career yet the impression I get is that he never had much love at Chelsea. Maybe I'm wrong and that wasn't the mood on the terraces, but that was always what I felt was implied.

IF Kezman strikes out (he looks to be legit but strikers you just can't tell) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will miss Jimmy Floyd pretty badly this year.

One of the great things about a new season is optimism about your new club and new signings. I can't imagine everyone of Chelsea's panning out as is often the case with foreign players but if they do it's sure going to be a good season for you guys. Even if they don't I still put Chelsea ahead of Arsenal (minus Viera) and United (minus a lot of guys for the first month or two of the season)

Mac - Solksjaer out for the year has got to hurt. Looks like Diego Forlorn is going to play a big part again this year God help you. Time to get on your knees and pray that Ruud stays healthy.

The first thing to note about Jimmy's game is that it consists entirely of scoring goals. He doesn't harass defenders, he doesn't win headers, he can't hold the ball up. He just scores goals. This was all very well when he was scoring goals for fun and we couldn't afford someone who could score and contribute to the team, but neither of those is true any more. Yes, Jimmy was our leading scorer last year, but he only scored one of those goals against teams in the top half of the Premiership. Add in non-qualifier CL games and his total number of goals against quality opposition rises to a mighty two - the same as Wayne Bridge. Jimmy couldn't pose a threat against the top teams and, as a result, he wasn't played against them. The only big match in which I remember Jimmy playing was the second leg of the CL semifinal, when Claudio was fighting for his job and falling back onto last year's team hoping for a miracle. In our most important matches, in the Champions' League or against Arsenal, Jimmy was fourth choice up front. It's kind of hard to figure out who our starters were up front last year, given that Claudio rotated them even more than the rest of the squad, but Jimmy wasn't one.

Also, we do actually have a Plan B up front: Mikael Forssell. Last year, he was one of the three or four best strikers in the Premiership; we have an option to recall him from Birmingham in January and if he plays anywhere near as well this year I would expect us to exercise that option.

[Desnudo]

Michael Owen to Real?

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=306609&cc=5901

Does Real Madrid think through their purchases or do they just buy whoever's good and available?

[moriarty]

Michael Owen to Real?

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=306609&cc=5901

Does Real Madrid think through their purchases or do they just buy whoever's good and available?

They buy 'galacticos' (sp?). Basically buy up all the super star names they can and hope they can form them into a team. It's almost as much marketing as it is on the field strategy to get some of these guys.

If Owens plays this afternoon though (in the CL) chances are the deal is off as he will be tied w/ Liverpool for euro play.

[moriarty]

Dola - Real is denying the Owen Link (for what it's worth).

Murphy (liverpool) sent to Charlton.

[Crapshoot]

blah- standard Real operating procedure. Deny initially, then swoop once the players is convinced. A good sign is if its published in Marca, which is the mouthpiece of Real for all practical purposes..

[Desnudo]

blah- standard Real operating procedure. Deny initially, then swoop once the players is convinced. A good sign is if its published in Marca, which is the mouthpiece of Real for all practical purposes..

http://www.marca.es/edicion/noticia/0,2458,519756,00.html

;)

[moriarty]

... and Owen starts on the bench in the Champions League Qualifier. I believe this leaves him available (assuming he doesn't come in the game) to play for another team (i.e. Real Madrid or Barcelona) in the CL this year.

[Desnudo]

Man Liverpool would be up a creek if this went through. Very late to find a replacement.

[Crapshoot]

Meh- if they get Etoo, they're probably getting a better player. A frontline of Etoo and Cisse is probably better than anything else in the Premiership (yes, Henry and Reyes or Drogba (biggest overpayment of the summer) and Gudjohnsenn)

[Crapshoot]

btw- I have on clue why Charlton are paying 2.5 million pounds for Franny " falls over in the box" Jeffers- when you consider that Robin Van Persie cost 2.5 million pounds, you realize why EPL clubs shouldnt buy English players at the inflated prices they go for...

[moriarty]

Update on Owen ... He didn't play at all in Liverpools 2-0 win over Graz in the CL.

Lots of rumors all over the net. Morientes or Eto + $10MM for Owen (wow). Supposedly Owen's dad flew to Madrid for negotiations. Another unsubstantiated rumor is that one of Liverpools owners is flying to Austria to convince him to change his mind.

[bhlloy]

Meh- if they get Etoo, they're probably getting a better player. A frontline of Etoo and Cisse is probably better than anything else in the Premiership (yes, Henry and Reyes or Drogba (biggest overpayment of the summer) and Gudjohnsenn)


No, no, no and maybe. Owen is a proven Premiership goalscorer who on his game is one of the top strikers in the country (world?). No way Eto'o and Cisse is better than Henry and Reyes, or Van Nistelrooy and Smith. Maybe potentially, but potentially El Hadj Diouf gave Liverpool the best attack last year with Owen. We all saw how that one panned out.

Cisse is a very good player, but hasn't done that much more in his career than Drogba, so am not sure why you are so high on him and so down on Drogba. One thing I can see is that Cisse has slightly more meaningful national play under his belt.

Possibly the best overall strikeforce in the Premiership (1-2-3 punch) is at a team you didn't even mention - Newcastle. Shearer is good for another couple of years, Bellamy is a very nice partner and Kluivert is a stud with something to prove. Shame their defense isn't even in the top half of the division.

[Katon]

I can see an argument for any of the top five as having the best strike pairing in the league, which probably means there isn't a best overall strikeforce. The one which worries me the most is Arsenal, for what that's worth; Henry is the best striker in the league, and one of the best in the world, Reyes always scores against Chelsea and looked very sharp in the Charity Shield, and Dennis Bergkamp is scary even at this end of his career. Also, they're the only ones not depending on a brand-new signing up front.

[Crapshoot]

No, no, no and maybe. Owen is a proven Premiership goalscorer who on his game is one of the top strikers in the country (world?). No way Eto'o and Cisse is better than Henry and Reyes, or Van Nistelrooy and Smith. Maybe potentially, but potentially El Hadj Diouf gave Liverpool the best attack last year with Owen. We all saw how that one panned out.

Cisse is a very good player, but hasn't done that much more in his career than Drogba, so am not sure why you are so high on him and so down on Drogba. One thing I can see is that Cisse has slightly more meaningful national play under his belt.

Possibly the best overall strikeforce in the Premiership (1-2-3 punch) is at a team you didn't even mention - Newcastle. Shearer is good for another couple of years, Bellamy is a very nice partner and Kluivert is a stud with something to prove. Shame their defense isn't even in the top half of the division.

Cisse has a longer track record that Drogba, who was languishing in the reserves a couple of years ago- the international experience is there, but he's been banging in goals for more than 2 years. As for Owen, he's good- but as with most English players, the hype to skill ratio is more out of whack, especially in the English press. Etoo has been keeping mallorca competitive, and doing it damn well. I dont really think the gap between the two is as big as you think it is- and given Etoo's a more midfielder striker hybrid, I think him and Cisse are likely to work out better than Cisse and Owen. The only reason I doubt Henry and Reyes is Reyes- he had flashes of brilliance, and has the potential to be brilliant- but even in Spain, the consensus was that Arsenal overpaid for him.

[Crapshoot]

I can see an argument for any of the top five as having the best strike pairing in the league, which probably means there isn't a best overall strikeforce. The one which worries me the most is Arsenal, for what that's worth; Henry is the best striker in the league, and one of the best in the world, Reyes always scores against Chelsea and looked very sharp in the Charity Shield, and Dennis Bergkamp is scary even at this end of his career. Also, they're the only ones not depending on a brand-new signing up front.

Van persie ? :D

Na- I know what you mean- the book on Van Persie is that his idol and style are modeled after the one and only Bergkamp..

[Katon]

Well, Van Persie is as much of a left winger as a striker, and I doubt he'll play as big a role in Arsenal's striker rotation as Drogba, Kezman, Smith, Cisse, or Kluivert will in their respective sides.

[daedalus]

I really think RvP will play up front more than Reyes. I think that, with Van Persie on board, Reyes will feature on the left wing more (with plenty of freedom to roam inside as Pires has). RvP is better in the air and is more of a middle of the field player, where Reyes is faster and likes to range outside . . . the same as Henry, which makes them clash a bit when paired. I like our potential rotation of Titi, Dennis and RvP. Titi is Titi and Dennis is STILL pure class (I STILL watch some of his classic goals every couple of days - I heart you, 3ric).

Oh, yeah. And Saha has been left out of the "top strike force" list so far. I haven't seen him play but Henry rates him highly and he certainly had a strong start to his Red Devils career.

I have a question about the NUFC group, will Shearer and Kluivert be too similar and hurt each other's effectiveness?

[Crapshoot]

Honestly- I see Kluivert as the long term replacement for Shearer- not to play together. I think Bellamy is the perfect foil for both of those two. Then again, given Newcastle's wealth in midfield, they could probably afford to have out and out strikers playing as target men..

[daedalus]

I actually kinda like Kluivert, the limited time that I did see him. He seems like a target guy who is actually pretty on the ground. He would be the one player of that type I would not have minded on Arsenal. (RvN was excluded since he'd never end up at Highbury/Ashburton.) I was not nearly as keen on Morientes.

[BreizhManu]

Cisse has a longer track record that Drogba, who was languishing in the reserves a couple of years ago
well he wasn't in reserves but playing in L2 with Le Mans

[BreizhManu]

if anybody wants to join, I created a group on yahoo uk fantasy football (read soccer here)

http://uk.premiership.fantasysports.yahoo.com/football

the group being :

<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td valign="top">Group ID#</td> <td>14538</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Group Name</td> <td>FOFC EPL Fantasy</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">Group Password</td> <td>fofc</td></tr></tbody> </table>

[Desnudo]

I'm in.

[Chief Rum]

You guys will seriously kick my ass. But I am in.

CR

[condors]

i am in

[Scholes]

I'm in.... I finished second in the Champions League pick em and the Euro 2004 league, while leading both going into the last match of the competition. I need redemption.

[condors]

not sure if anyone heard the story i saw it last night a manchester bookie offered 1,000,000 pounds of his own money to bet that manchester united will finish higher than chelsea(who seems to be getting all the betting action)
I am a fan of Man United and i am not confident they will finish ahead of Chelsea this season. If i was the owner of chelsea i would take him up on this (heck i could upgrade the team as needed) and i know they are expecting to win it all (they did fire their last manager for finishing 2nd).

[MIJB#19]

will be in the Yahoo! thingy and try to kick all your asses with only Dutch players, too bad Van Nistelrooij is injured right now.

So far, this thread has been wonderful to read as a fan of Dutch football players.

[MIJB#19]

I want to add something to the Kezman/Hasselbaink discussion:

The chemistry between Arjen Robben on the left wing and Mateja Kezman in the center of the field will be scary. Kezman hardly scored when Robben was injured last season and the way he stepped up (and sadly got suspended) when Robben got tackled from behind was probably the best thing I ever saw from Kezman.
So, with Robben out for four weeks, it won't hurt to have Kezman out as well, he won't score without his buddy anyway.:)

On Hasselbaink himself, well, I learned to agree to disagree with Katon on that matter. Let's keep it that way. We both know that Hasselbaink will score 15 to 20 goals, but can't avoiding Middlesbrough from struggling all year.

[atatange1]

I'm in.

[Katon]

On Hasselbaink himself, well, I learned to agree to disagree with Katon on that matter. Let's keep it that way. We both know that Hasselbaink will score 15 to 20 goals, but can't avoiding Middlesbrough from struggling all year.

Did you? Last time we had this discussion (in the old Tim Howard thread) you seemed to be disagreeing less with my assessment of him as a player than with my use of the wrong first name. Which I just used the entire way through my rant above. Oops.

I am probably being slightly harsh on Hasselbaink, for the same reason I've been harsh in the past on Jesper Gronkjaer: they're decent players, but they can get extremely frustrating when you've been seeing Hernan Crespo and Damien Duff doing the same thing much better recently. I can't see 15 to 20 goals, though. He hasn't managed that in either of the last two seasons and I think Middlesbrough's offence is going to give him less help than even our pre-Abramovich side.

I've also joined the fantasy football competition, incidentally.

[Desnudo]

I want to add something to the Kezman/Hasselbaink discussion:

The chemistry between Arjen Robben on the left wing and Mateja Kezman in the center of the field will be scary. Kezman hardly scored when Robben was injured last season and the way he stepped up (and sadly got suspended) when Robben got tackled from behind was probably the best thing I ever saw from Kezman.
So, with Robben out for four weeks, it won't hurt to have Kezman out as well, he won't score without his buddy anyway.:)

On Hasselbaink himself, well, I learned to agree to disagree with Katon on that matter. Let's keep it that way. We both know that Hasselbaink will score 15 to 20 goals, but can't avoiding Middlesbrough from struggling all year.

Hasselbaink is the pants. Although there are certainly worse strikers, he's by no means the world class level that Chelsea need and can afford. He's overrated in Winning Eleven 7 for that matter. BTW, Kezman's suspension got overturned.

[Crapshoot]

Did you? Last time we had this discussion (in the old Tim Howard thread) you seemed to be disagreeing less with my assessment of him as a player than with my use of the wrong first name. Which I just used the entire way through my rant above. Oops.

I am probably being slightly harsh on Hasselbaink, for the same reason I've been harsh in the past on Jesper Gronkjaer: they're decent players, but they can get extremely frustrating when you've been seeing Hernan Crespo and Damien Duff doing the same thing much better recently. I can't see 15 to 20 goals, though. He hasn't managed that in either of the last two seasons and I think Middlesbrough's offence is going to give him less help than even our pre-Abramovich side.

I've also joined the fantasy football competition, incidentally.

that's a bit unfair- this is a man who led the spanish league in goals, and did fine when he got to play- he scored 17 in just 38 appearances last year. he doesnt do much except score goals, but damnit, he's got a fine record of that...

[ISiddiqui]

I signed up as well, though since I'm a Yank, don't hurt me too hard ;).

[Crapshoot]

Ill sign up when I get home- though I wonder how well fantasy football (that';s the name people!) works..

[ISiddiqui]

It's interesting - most Fantasy EPL is of the you get $100 and you get to spend it on 11 players, which is kind of like how the transfer system works ;). While most American football leagues are picked by a draft, which is how US leagues work. Frankly I think a draft is more fun, but when in Rome ;).

[bhlloy]

Interesting format for this league a) the points system is very innovative and different and b) all players that didn't play last year are all valued very low.

Not sure if I like it or not but it will be interesting. Last year the most valuable midfielder in the league was Muzzy Izzet

[Katon]

that's a bit unfair- this is a man who led the spanish league in goals, and did fine when he got to play- he scored 17 in just 38 appearances last year. he doesnt do much except score goals, but damnit, he's got a fine record of that...

He's also won the Premiership Golden Boot a bit more recently, but the fact is that he hasn't been playing like a 15-20 goal man for a couple of years now. Even taken out of context, 17 from 38 is not an exceptional record - decent, maybe even good, but not exceptional - and in the context of Chelsea's offence, playing mostly against relatively weak teams, it does not inspire confidence in his ability to hit fifteen to twenty playing for Middlesbrough. Four of his league goals last season came against Wolves; add in another goal against Leicester, a CL goal against Zilnia, and League Cup goals against Reading and Notts County and half his goals came against teams which were simply not Premiership quality.

[Crapshoot]

He's also won the Premiership Golden Boot a bit more recently, but the fact is that he hasn't been playing like a 15-20 goal man for a couple of years now. Even taken out of context, 17 from 38 is not an exceptional record - decent, maybe even good, but not exceptional - and in the context of Chelsea's offence, playing mostly against relatively weak teams, it does not inspire confidence in his ability to hit fifteen to twenty playing for Middlesbrough. Four of his league goals last season came against Wolves; add in another goal against Leicester, a CL goal against Zilnia, and League Cup goals against Reading and Notts County and half his goals came against teams which were simply not Premiership quality.

Fair enough- but your statement indicated that he didnt score that many. More so, about 8-10 of those games were when he came off the bench. All set and done, 17 goals is a decent haul - Chelsea may be able to do better, and he may not match it, but his track record is pretty good- leading La Liga goals on a relegated team ?

[Katon]

My statement was league goals only, which was how I had understood MIJB's 15-20 goals comment. If you include all competitions, then he scored 15 goals in 2002-03 and 17 last year, which still doesn't leave him with a lot of margin for error in changing teams. To deal with his previous record, yes, it is impressive, and it may be that I am underestimating him because I've only been a season ticket holder for two years. But the fact is that he hasn't been nearly the same force over those past two years that he was when he was leading leagues in scoring, and to score 15 goals for Middlesbrough he's going to have to get back to something reasonably close to his old form and mesh well with Mark Viduka. I'm not convinced that this is merely a bad patch as opposed to a permanent decline and I'm certainly not convinced that he and Viduka are going to make up a successful partnership. Hasselbaink's best ever partership was with Eidur Gudjohnsen, who is a completely different style of player from Viduka.

[cschex]

if anybody wants to join, I created a group on yahoo uk fantasy football (read soccer here)

I'm in.

[Desnudo]

Interesting format for this league a) the points system is very innovative and different and b) all players that didn't play last year are all valued very low.

Not sure if I like it or not but it will be interesting. Last year the most valuable midfielder in the league was Muzzy Izzet

I notice b) as well. Looks like some serious bargains to be had out there.

Does anyone know how this salary cap works? Do I have to manage it every week or does the player's cost (those already on my roster) to me stay static?

[BreizhManu]

I notice b) as well. Looks like some serious bargains to be had out there.

Does anyone know how this salary cap works? Do I have to manage it every week or does the player's cost (those already on my roster) to me stay static?
there is no cap, is just that the starting value of your squad must be of 100, after that the price of the players will change so you'll be able to sell them at a higher/lower price etc...

[Scholes]

It looks like a fee of 12 million pounds and Carlos Nunez (24, right mid) is the deal for Owen to Real Madrid...

I never know whether to believe these things or not. Apparantly Viera was supposed to be gone last week....

[bhlloy]

According to unofficial Liverpool web site, deal is all but done with Owens father (his agent) flying or already flown out to Spain to sign the contract. I'd heard £8m as the money involved but at the moment I'm sure that's just speculation

[Crapshoot]

It looks like a fee of 12 million pounds and Carlos Nunez (24, right mid) is the deal for Owen to Real Madrid...

I never know whether to believe these things or not. Apparantly Viera was supposed to be gone last week....

Ive heard 8 as well- but that's dirt cheap for Owen. Etoo went for 17 million pounds - Im curious that Owen is half the price. And who the hell is Carlos Nunez ? never heard of him - seems to be a former Real youth team guy, which is well and good, until you realize the last decent guy out of their youth team to succeed (other than Castillas) was probably Raul....

[Scholes]

That Raul guy turned out alright though...

You're right though, Raul was a while ago, and I think Pavon is a youth product, but he hasn't panned out like they thought he would so far.

[Crapshoot]

That Raul guy turned out alright though...

You're right though, Raul was a while ago, and I think Pavon is a youth product, but he hasn't panned out like they thought he would so far.

Aye. You could quote Raul Bravo as proof of the Real Youth system at work.. but that would probably end up supporting my point.. :D

[daedalus]

Portillo is said to be highly rated. Mind you, he'll never get a chance in Madrid. But he's highly rated, nonetheless.

[MIJB#19]

Did you? Last time we had this discussion (in the old Tim Howard thread) you seemed to be disagreeing less with my assessment of him as a player than with my use of the wrong first name. Which I just used the entire way through my rant above. Oops.

I am probably being slightly harsh on Hasselbaink, for the same reason I've been harsh in the past on Jesper Gronkjaer: they're decent players, but they can get extremely frustrating when you've been seeing Hernan Crespo and Damien Duff doing the same thing much better recently. I can't see 15 to 20 goals, though. He hasn't managed that in either of the last two seasons and I think Middlesbrough's offence is going to give him less help than even our pre-Abramovich side.

I've also joined the fantasy football competition, incidentally.;)

Actually, I have been stepping away from the Hasselbaink band wagon a bit lately. I have never seen anything special about him, but he's made his reputation as a goal scorer and it's hard to argue with the # of goals he (used to) score(s). I now realize that 15-20 goals is a bit too optimistic, but somehow I can see him end up around 15 in league matches, knowing he seems to be losing it a bit, but he's not been an every game starter either for a long time.

Of course, the arguement of making goals in important games is legimate.

That brings us back to Kezman.
Kezman's reputation is one of a guy who scores 2 or 3 goals against the weaker teams, but no goals against equal or better teams. The guy has more talent then Hasselbaink, but he's really got to show he can score in important games.
I didn't know the suspension was (deservedly) overturned, but that sounds like a good decission based on the game tape.

And then just dropping another Dutch striker's name in:
Fulham's Collins John is in Marco van Basten's first selection for Oranje at the absence of Van Nistelrooij (injury), Kluivert (lacking form) and Hasselbaink (lacking form). Still, with guys like Makaaij, Van Hooijdonk and Van der Vaart he's not going to play, but he's in the group and that's a good sign.

[MIJB#19]

Wow, the Owen story seems to be for real now and making the Vieira deal cancelled.

Comes the bigger question, who's going to be the victim, with Real playing a 4-1-3-2 system:
o Ronaldo - as he's the guy playing the same position
o Raul - playing the same position, but can switch to the midfield
o Figo - playing midfield, but with Raul moving could be vicitim
o Zinedine Zidane - see Figo
o David Beckham - see Zidane

Place your bets now!

[BreizhManu]

Figo

[KeyserSoze]

First and foremost. I´m madridist.
Second. All the Owen situation is a bad movement.

Florentino Saenz has guaranteed a "galactico" each year. This year was Vieira. But as long as he couldnt sign them he has signed Owen. Even he is a good player I dont like the movement.

Owen needs spaces. Madrid has not spaces.
We to many strikers/creative players. Figo, Beckham, Ronaldo, Raul, Morientes, Zizou, Guti, and now Owens???? (Portillo is dead weight)

Our defense is in good shape, better that it seems (even with lacks in the laterals). R Carlos, Michel, Samuel, Pavón, R Bravo...

Our defensive midfield is dead. An average player Helguera and 2 good players that doesnt fit Beckham and Guti

Sigggggggggggg :mad:

[Crapshoot]

Portillo is not in Madrid this year- I believe he signed for Fiorentia on loan. Ya, I see no rhyme or reason behind the Real strikforce- they've shored up their defense with Samuel, but the midfield still has no cover- no one who can play a holding role.

[bhlloy]

I can't see Owen working out, but then I could never see Beckham either and he was pretty impressive for half a season.

I can't see him displacing any of those players right away either. My guess is he'll be on the bench.

Viera staying at Arsenal is a big blow for Real but huge for Arsenal IF Viera still wants to be there and has his head in the game. Even his best friends in the team said that he wanted to go 3 days ago, but apparently Arsenal priced Madrid out of the running. If he's resentful it could get interesting.

[RPI-Fan]

T-minus 19 hours!!!

[Crapshoot]

If Im Madrid, I fax porto a 10 milllion pound offer for Maniche, right now- that midfield needs someone, anyone with a holding, defensive mentality.

[Desnudo]

Wow, the Owen story seems to be for real now and making the Vieira deal cancelled.

Comes the bigger question, who's going to be the victim, with Real playing a 4-1-3-2 system:
o Ronaldo - as he's the guy playing the same position
o Raul - playing the same position, but can switch to the midfield
o Figo - playing midfield, but with Raul moving could be vicitim
o Zinedine Zidane - see Figo
o David Beckham - see Zidane

Place your bets now!

I think Ronaldo and Raul are better, Ronaldo much, than Owen, so I'd go with Figo. Zidane still has gas left in the tank. Beck's is too good looking for Real to keep him out of the lineup. I think Posh would kick the coach in the nads if that happened.

[condors]

I don't think its out of the question that they could use a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2

[moriarty]

I can't see Owen working out, but then I could never see Beckham either and he was pretty impressive for half a season.


I don't know ... I don't watch Real play much, but with Becks & Zidane slipping him through balls, Owen (while not being the most creative player) might do quite well.

I'd love to see how a partnership of Ronaldo/Owen works out. The defense would have to respect Owen's speed and Ronaldo's ability to create ... pick a poision.

Anyways, Owen will go down w/ his annual injury and give plenty of playing time up front for Raul or whomever.

[ISiddiqui]

Well that is going to be interesting. Too many galaticos and not enough spots. Real probably would have been better off getting Vieira, but that would have cost them 25 million pounds abouts. I think a playmaking midfielder would be better for them more than another striker (though I realize they have some good playmaking midfielders already).

[moriarty]

Looking at it from the Liverpool perspective, I'm having a hard time understanding the deal. If Owen wanted out badly enough they didn't have alot of options. But I have to believe he was worth more $8MM (especially after Liverpool paid $10+MM for Diouf to ride their bench).

And as someone said ... who the heck is Nunez? Never heard of him (maybe a Real fan can help me out here). I could understand that if he was a promising youngster who couldn't get time with Real's current midfielders ... but it looks like he's 25! I'm hoping there's more to this than is being made public.

[RPI-Fan]

moriarty: 8MM POUNDS-Sterling, not Dollars.

[Easy Mac]

even so, thats only what $14 million or so, I figured Owen would be worth about $20.

[ISiddiqui]

Vieira can't be 2 and half times as much as Owen is worth, can he? :D

[Mac Howard]

I don't think Liverpool could do much else. Contract negotiations have been going on for 12 months now and Owen just doesn't want to sign. According to Benitez (Liverpool manager), Owen's agent has been talking with Real for some time, despite the club's objection, and it very much looks that he was determined to go. As his contract approaches its end Owen's price would drop rapidly and the club had to get what they could - by the next transfer window most interested clubs would be prepared to wait.

I must admit though that 8 million pounds doesn't sound like a very good price but I believe Nunoz is a good player. Wasn't he with the Spanish squad in Euro 2004?

I don't think Vieira is happy and there may be consequences for Arsenal. Apparently they upped the price again to 25 million when Real believed that they had agreed to 22. There was also talk of another 5 million based on results. Real decided 'forget it!". They thought they had a deal and Arsenal decided to milk it for what they could.

But there were plenty of signs that Vieira wanted to go - no loyalty to Arsenal messages from him and friends indicating he was ready for the move. Wenger has said more than once it was in Vieira's control. So I suspect that neither Vieira nor Arsenal are pleased with the other.

Of course, that's a Man Utd fan talking :)

[Desnudo]

What exactly makes Real Madrid the destination for players? It seems like there are a few other clubs with better current make-ups, Chelsea for example, and with enough cash to make whomever happy. I could understand if Real was blowing the doors off people, but they didn't even win their league last season. No insult to Real fans, I'm just curious what the appeal is. Money?

[BreizhManu]

What exactly makes Real Madrid the destination for players? It seems like there are a few other clubs with better current make-ups, Chelsea for example, and with enough cash to make whomever happy. I could understand if Real was blowing the doors off people, but they didn't even win their league last season. No insult to Real fans, I'm just curious what the appeal is. Money?
Money - Yes.
History - Yes, Real is a mythical club, the best in history.
Fan Support - Yes, If you've never been to Spain you cannot even imagine what Real and Barca can represent, and even what soccer represents there.
Sun - No, we're talking of Madrid here.
Great City - Yes, overall a good place to live in.

[moriarty]

moriarty: 8MM POUNDS-Sterling, not Dollars.

That's what I meant - I just didn't know how to type the pound sign in.

The point still stands - the previous regime spent 10MM lbs on Diouf, and the current regime lets Owen go for only 8MM (+ Nunez, but I have no idea of his true transfer value). I'm not sure which regime's move is worse.

I understand they had no choice if Owen held them over a barrel, but Owen has been very upfront saying he would not push it to a Bosman situation and seems to have been very open w/ Liverpool up until the transfer. Who knows ... but after watching 'pool's first game against Tottenham, they'd better spend the 8MM quickly.

[MIJB#19]

I don't think its out of the question that they could use a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2Can't play either of these with 6 offensive minded players, 7 if you include Roberto Carlos.

The addition of Walter Samuel should help, but it's a big questionmark for a star in Italian defending to become a star on Real Madrid's defense, which requires other skills against other typs of opponents and with less team mates helping out.

put it this way, try having an american football team offense with the an offesive lineman substituted with an extra quarterback. it just won't work. Or myabe it will, but Real Madrid would be playing with 3 quarterbacks, 3 running backs and has nobody to block for hem.
On one side it's the charm of Real Madird, what attracts big names, on the other side it's always the thing that will cost them. Vieira would be a good guy to help out on the field, but just doesn't have the type of image a guy like Owen has, or guys like Van Nistelrooij, Totti or Ballack could bring.

[MIJB#19]

That's what I meant - I just didn't know how to type the pound sign in.

The point still stands - the previous regime spent 10MM lbs on Diouf, and the current regime lets Owen go for only 8MM (+ Nunez, but I have no idea of his true transfer value). I'm not sure which regime's move is worse.

I understand they had no choice if Owen held them over a barrel, but Owen has been very upfront saying he would not push it to a Bosman situation and seems to have been very open w/ Liverpool up until the transfer. Who knows ... but after watching 'pool's first game against Tottenham, they'd better spend the 8MM quickly.Liverpool is close to broke if I recall the Thailand buying Liverpool stories correctly, they had to sell Michael Owen.
That's what 99.9% of the football teams in the world have to do eventually with their star players who are arguably fitting better on a better team.

[Chief Rum]

Boro!

JF Hasselbaink must have heard the discussions going on round here, since he put in a huge equaliser in stoppage time to level up with Newcastle.

So much for not scoring big goals. ;)

I'll let you all debate on whether he handballed or not.

Impressions from the portion of the first Boro match I saw this season (I overslept).

--Downing looks really good. I thought that in the limited times I saw him last year, too.
--Zenden remains a terrific playmaker (which is part of the problem of what to do with him and Downing on the left).
--McLaren is a good manager, but his decision to play a midfielder out of position on the backline nearly cost us the match.
--Zenden's odd intervention on Bellamy in the area was just stupid. He had an angle on the ball; there was no need to block off Bellamy from it, just slip in and take it. We would have three points now if that play is done different.
--While I think if we want to make a run at a top five finish, we need to hold these at home, I can't complain too much aboiut drawing Newcastle, which is stil a very capable squad.
--We really need Southgate and Queudreu back. Qeudreu's absence was the key reason McLaren ended up with a winger on the backline (and not a defensive winger either).
--Did Juninho get on the pitch early on and was subbed? Or did I just miss him? Supposedly, his decision on whether he would go to Celtic was based at least partly on this match (as his anticipated playing time was a primary factor in him moving). I don't want to lose Juninho, so I if McLaren knew the situation with the PT and Juninho's possible decision on Celtic, it makes me wonder if not using him is his way of saying goodbye? I hope that's not the case.
--Reizeger was fantastic, creating offense and playing a role in Downey's goal.
--Kluivert just got in for a little bit, and nearly generated a score in his one good chance. Jenas miskicked his chip pass, though. That play was created by the odd Boro backline sub as well, I think.
--Downing kicked this one long shot on goal from the outside that just looked great (aside from his score). Given was fortunate to get to it. I say again, we really need to get that kid on the pitch more.

CR

[Mac Howard]

Juninho didn't play.

[Chief Rum]

Juninho didn't play.

I can't think he'll look favorably on that then. Juninho sounds like he really wants to stay with the Boro, but not if he isn't going to see regular first team action. Apparently, Celtic will offer him that.

CR

[condors]

Can't play either of these with 6 offensive minded players, 7 if you include Roberto Carlos.

The addition of Walter Samuel should help, but it's a big questionmark for a star in Italian defending to become a star on Real Madrid's defense, which requires other skills against other typs of opponents and with less team mates helping out.

put it this way, try having an american football team offense with the an offesive lineman substituted with an extra quarterback. it just won't work. Or myabe it will, but Real Madrid would be playing with 3 quarterbacks, 3 running backs and has nobody to block for hem.
On one side it's the charm of Real Madird, what attracts big names, on the other side it's always the thing that will cost them. Vieira would be a good guy to help out on the field, but just doesn't have the type of image a guy like Owen has, or guys like Van Nistelrooij, Totti or Ballack could bring.

I didn't say it would work but it wouldn't shock me if they did it

[daedalus]

As Matthijs said, image. When Henry made his run last year and the press made rumblings of Real making him their next Galaticos, I mentioned that he does not fit that profile and that Owen fit better in that aspect. As good as Henry is and as famous as he is now, he does not have the press pull that Owen does. Particularly, in the Asia market where Perez seems to want to break into. It is tough to beat Beckham and Owen as the top sell in that region. I guess it shows that Perez is still going to pull his weigh in personnel decision, in spite of last year's result.

[daedalus]

Acceptable start to the Gooners' season. I dig. :)

[moriarty]

Liverpool is close to broke if I recall the Thailand buying Liverpool stories correctly, they had to sell Michael Owen.
That's what 99.9% of the football teams in the world have to do eventually with their star players who are arguably fitting better on a better team.

I find it hard to believe Liverpool is close to broke - unless you've seen stories that I haven't. The Thailand deal was for them to buy a piece of the team (not the whole team). The goal was to get some fresh money to spend in the transfer market to compete w/ the likes of Chelsea. It broke down over various issues conflicts over board seats among them. And they refused the one partial owner already from buying a bigger stake in the team - something they wouldn't have done if they were broke.

That said, Liverpool can't go out freespending like Chelsea. Benitez has been told he has to sell players before he can buy (hence the sale of Murphy, Heskey, and loans of Diouf). But I'm positive that they will spend all of the 8 million pounds from Owen soon - which they wouldn't be doing if they were broke.

[bhlloy]

Agreed... definitely not broke but not in a position to bring in new players if they didn't get something for Owen (he wasn't going to sign a new contract and they would have lost him in the summer for nothing)
8 million pounds is not a lot, should have got a lot more and I don't think they actually wanted Nunez. Real stole this deal in my opinion.

[Scholes]

Acceptable start to the Gooners' season. I dig. :)

...And a not so acceptable start to Man U's season

I do not dig.

I didn't get to watch any of the Chelsea/Man U match, only got ESPN's gamecast of it. Any one see it and any impressions?

[Mac Howard]

I saw it Scholes - and the Arsenal game before it. Arsenal are way ahead of both their rivals on the evidence of these two games. They played some beautifully fluid football while Chelsea and Man Utd played out a dour, journeyman game.

At least Utd have the excuse that their team was severely depleted. Chelsea fans should be worried first that their stars didn't put on a star performance but second that Mourinho displayed a woeful lack of enterprise when his team went one up. Not unlike Porto!

A draw would have been a fair result - Utd dominated possession in the second half after an even first - but they lacked any real penetration and never really looked like scoring against a determined Chelsea rearguard action.

On the point of Liverpool and their transfer position. It's not transfer fees that are troubling clubs these days, it's wages. A top player can receive 100,000 pounds a week. That's 5 million a year. So, over say a 3 year period, he's cost the club 15 million.

What's more, this is lost money. Transfer fees can often be recovered when a player moves but wages are lost forever. I understand that Ferguson at Man Utd has been told that he needs to lose a couple of players and drop the wages bill before he brings in another player (though hopefully if Saha is out to beyond Christmas this will change). It's not the transfer fee that concerns the board, it's the wages bill - currently around 80 million a year.

Transfer fees for all but the very best players are on a downward path and wages now dominate club finances.

[MIJB#19]

I didn't say it would work but it wouldn't shock me if they did itI see, sorry for the confusion.
Actually, it would shock me if they would play with 6 offensive minded players.
In the days of "allowing less goals won't make you lose" rather then "scoring more goals will make you win", it backfires on you if you don't have balance in your offense and defense.

[TroyF]

I saw it Scholes - and the Arsenal game before it. Arsenal are way ahead of both their rivals on the evidence of these two games. They played some beautifully fluid football while Chelsea and Man Utd played out a dour, journeyman game.

At least Utd have the excuse that their team was severely depleted. Chelsea fans should be worried first that their stars didn't put on a star performance but second that Mourinho displayed a woeful lack of enterprise when his team went one up. Not unlike Porto!

A draw would have been a fair result - Utd dominated possession in the second half after an even first - but they lacked any real penetration and never really looked like scoring against a determined Chelsea rearguard action.

On the point of Liverpool and their transfer position. It's not transfer fees that are troubling clubs these days, it's wages. A top player can receive 100,000 pounds a week. That's 5 million a year. So, over say a 3 year period, he's cost the club 15 million.

What's more, this is lost money. Transfer fees can often be recovered when a player moves but wages are lost forever. I understand that Ferguson at Man Utd has been told that he needs to lose a couple of players and drop the wages bill before he brings in another player (though hopefully if Saha is out to beyond Christmas this will change). It's not the transfer fee that concerns the board, it's the wages bill - currently around 80 million a year.

Transfer fees for all but the very best players are on a downward path and wages now dominate club finances.

Arsenal looked simply incredible. They almost looked like they were in midseason form already. The 17 year old (Fabergas?) looks like a future superstar.

Color me impressed. Didn't see the ManU/Chelsea game, but they'd better start playing some upper level football before they want to even think about getting the title from the Gunners.

[Desnudo]

Color me impressed. Didn't see the ManU/Chelsea game, but they'd better start playing some upper level football before they want to even think about getting the title from the Gunners.

You have to factor in the level of competition. A Wayne Rooney-less Everton is hardly a benchmark, although they did look very impressive.

[Katon]

I saw it Scholes - and the Arsenal game before it. Arsenal are way ahead of both their rivals on the evidence of these two games. They played some beautifully fluid football while Chelsea and Man Utd played out a dour, journeyman game.

At least Utd have the excuse that their team was severely depleted. Chelsea fans should be worried first that their stars didn't put on a star performance but second that Mourinho displayed a woeful lack of enterprise when his team went one up. Not unlike Porto!


Obviously, I'm not thrilled, but there are several reasons to think that our normal play will be somewhat more enjoyable than this.

Porto played significantly more defensively in the CL, where most of the opposition was more talented than they were, than they did in their own domestic league. How Mourinho played against Man U with a Porto team that was at a disadvantage in terms of raw talent is not necessarily a good indicator of how he is going to use one of the most talented squads in the league. This point doesn't apply do yesterday's match, obviously, but there are separate reasons to regard that as unrepresentative.

All the prematch attention has been on Man U's injury problems, and rightly so. But although Chelsea are not having difficulties to nearly the same degree, we are missing quite a few midfielders. Our of our normal nine midfielders, we had five available for the match: Lampard, Geremi, Parker, Smertin, and Makelele. Frank Lampard and four defensive midfielders. There is no way to set up a remotely positive midfield out of that group of players without asking at least one and probably two of them to go completely against their preferred style of play. Any set of four you choose from them, and Lampard-Geremi-Smertin-Makelele (which Mourinho did choose) is as positive as any, is going to be so much better playing this type of extremely defensive game as to force your hand with regard to the team's playing style. There was no other way Mourinho could plausibly have played with the midfielders he had available. He had to set up a similar midfield in our friendly against Oxford (Parker-Smertin-Geremi-Cole); after the match, he said that he would strongly prefer it if he did not have to play a midfield like that again. We then went on to play perfectly enjoyable football for the rest of the preseason, with the help of all those attacking midfielders he hadn't been able to use against Oxford. Is there any reason not to see this situation as directly analogous?

TroyF - there is a difference between having almost all of your preferred attacking options available and having significant portions of your attack out injured. There is also a difference between playing against one of the three or four worst teams in the league and playing against one of the top three. Once those differences are adjusted for, Arsenal's edge on Chelsea and Man U looks significantly smaller. They are the favorites, and with good reason, but they are by no means unbeatable.

[TroyF]

TroyF - there is a difference between having almost all of your preferred attacking options available and having significant portions of your attack out injured. There is also a difference between playing against one of the three or four worst teams in the league and playing against one of the top three. Once those differences are adjusted for, Arsenal's edge on Chelsea and Man U looks significantly smaller. They are the favorites, and with good reason, but they are by no means unbeatable.

Guys, I understand that Everton sucks and that they were without their best strike force. I understand ManU or Chelsea have tons of talent and can beat Arsenal. I also understand that an early win in the EPL doesn't mean a lot.

Give me some credit. Given all that and given Arsenal were without Patrick Viera and playing with a 17 year old kid in the midfield, they were still simply breathtaking to watch. You had the feeling everytime they had the ball they were going to score.

This is a team that ran away from everyone in the table last year and I see no indication that things will be much different this year. Long season. Injuries, suspensions, transfer signings. . . All that aside, Arsenal are going to be VERY difficult for anyone to slide by. They are playing at an incredibly high level right now. Chelsea and ManU have the talent and have the players. . . but they aren't at the level of the Gunners as of right now. Maybe they'll surprise me, but right now Arsenal is the class of the EPL.

[Chief Rum]

The streak will end this weekend when the Boro smach the Gunners! :D

Well, okay, maybe not...one can hope, though.

CR

[daedalus]

Give me some credit. Given all that and given Arsenal were without Patrick Viera and playing with a 17 year old kid in the midfield, they were still simply breathtaking to watch. You had the feeling everytime they had the ball they were going to score.And without Sol! Cygan performed well but, y'know, Campbell-Cygan is a slight difference. :D

Pires and Henry were also not 100% yet. I do think it was to our advantage that Reyes was left off both the Euro and the Olympic squad (as oppose to C Ronaldo for Manchester United).This is a team that ran away from everyone in the table last year and I see no indication that things will be much different this year. Long season. Injuries, suspensions, transfer signings. . . All that aside, Arsenal are going to be VERY difficult for anyone to slide by. They are playing at an incredibly high level right now. Chelsea and ManU have the talent and have the players. . . but they aren't at the level of the Gunners as of right now. Maybe they'll surprise me, but right now Arsenal is the class of the EPL.Troy is a Gooner!!! It is good to be one of the good guys, isn't it? :) :) :) :) :)

[TroyF]

Ya know Daedalus, I'm actually a Man City fan.

I'm don't like ManU, but I've always kind of liked Chelsea. I do like Arsenal, but that is irrelevant. I'm only commenting on their play.

If you don't enjoy their style of soccer and are impressed by the way they play the game, your hatred of them is blinding your vision. (not you, talking in general here)

Chief,

Boro looked OK on Saturday (though they caught more than a few breaks to get the draw) They'll need to play better this weekend or the Arsenal streak will live.

[Desnudo]

TroyF - there is a difference between having almost all of your preferred attacking options available and having significant portions of your attack out injured. There is also a difference between playing against one of the three or four worst teams in the league and playing against one of the top three. Once those differences are adjusted for, Arsenal's edge on Chelsea and Man U looks significantly smaller. They are the favorites, and with good reason, but they are by no means unbeatable.

Give me some credit. Given all that and given Arsenal were without Patrick Viera and playing with a 17 year old kid in the midfield, they were still simply breathtaking to watch. You had the feeling everytime they had the ball they were going to score.

That kid turned out to be a revelation, both in play and hair. Although they need Cambell back for sure. Cygan performed a tackle in the box worthy of NFL Tonight that didn't get called.

[condors]

troy- being that your a man city fan....How much have you seen of Reyna? I argue with a guy i work with about him all the time. He thinks he is overated and shouldn't hold a place for any decent team. Now his best days may be past him but he has still looked good to me (i didn't many of his games while at Sunderland) this week. You think City can challenge for the 4th spot? I think they have alot of talent but they haven't gotten the results. They looked pretty inconsistant last season if they could put it together this year i don't think they are going to scare arsenal or chelsea for the league title but i don't think liverpool or newcastle are unbeatable


Is there an EPL internet radio station? there should be!

[Crapshoot]

troy- being that your a man city fan....How much have you seen of Reyna? I argue with a guy i work with about him all the time. He thinks he is overated and shouldn't hold a place for any decent team. Now his best days may be past him but he has still looked good to me (i didn't many of his games while at Sunderland) this week. You think City can challenge for the 4th spot? I think they have alot of talent but they haven't gotten the results. They looked pretty inconsistant last season if they could put it together this year i don't think they are going to scare arsenal or chelsea for the league title but i don't think liverpool or newcastle are unbeatable


Is there an EPL internet radio station? there should be!

City challanges for the 4th spot when I announce my impending nuptials to Jennifer Love Hewitt...

[moriarty]

Is there an EPL internet radio station? there should be!

BBC Live carries alot of games via internet radio. In addition, if you want to follow a team in particular, several of the team websites will have links to radio broadcasts (you may have to pay a subscriber fee for these though).

[TroyF]

ManCity isn't going to challenge for the 4th spot. They'll be lucky to be in the upper half.

Renya. . . I'm torn on him. He's too inconsistent for my taste, but it's not like there are a ton of alternatives.

[condors]

yeah i subscribe to the one for manchester united its kinda cheesy though, i listen to it but its very biased(shocking).

[Chief Rum]

Chief,

Boro looked OK on Saturday (though they caught more than a few breaks to get the draw) They'll need to play better this weekend or the Arsenal streak will live.

I tend to agree with your first part, although the Boro did control possession and took more shots on goal (Newcastle had better chances, though). I felt Newcastle caught a break or two themselves and Boro was playing without Viduka, Southgate and Queudreu (and Juninho was held out, unfortunately), and Mendieta was hobbled, too (although he did play). The Magpies have tremendous talent, as always, so anytime we can play even with them, even at Riverside, I count that as a bit of a moral victory.

We did catch the biggest break on JFH's handball. Replays seem to show he put it in with his hand, although I don't know if it was accidental or not.

Regardless of our opinions of this last match, I highly doubt we're going to go into Highbury and end Arsenal's streak. :)

CR

[TroyF]

I tend to agree with your first part, although the Boro did control possession and took more shots on goal (Newcastle had better chances, though). I felt Newcastle caught a break or two themselves and Boro was playing without Viduka, Southgate and Queudreu (and Juninho was held out, unfortunately), and Mendieta was hobbled, too (although he did play). The Magpies have tremendous talent, as always, so anytime we can play even with them, even at Riverside, I count that as a bit of a moral victory.

We did catch the biggest break on JFH's handball. Replays seem to show he put it in with his hand, although I don't know if it was accidental or not.

Regardless of our opinions of this last match, I highly doubt we're going to go into Highbury and end Arsenal's streak. :)

CR

It was an evenly played game, but I thought Newcastle had the much better scoring chances. I thought Boro was lucky to come away with the point. Just my opinon though. :)

[Huckleberry]

Ya know Daedalus, I'm actually a Man City fan.

:mad:

Stop copying me. Our internet hatred is still burning brightly within me.

[Chief Rum]

It was an evenly played game, but I thought Newcastle had the much better scoring chances. I thought Boro was lucky to come away with the point. Just my opinon though. :)

They were lucky to come away with the point. It took a cheating (perhaps unintentional) move by JFH to pull it off and he did it in the death, so certainly they were lucky to get a point.

That doesn't mean Newcastle didn't catch some breaks itself, though. The Boro luck was in pulling out a point in stoppage, but I wouldn't say it took that much luck otherwise to get them to the point where that shot mattered. They earned it on Saturday. ;)

CR

[riz]

Go Cambridge United!

Although this is the EPL thread, I cannot help but to reply to this :)

It took me only one trip to the Abbey Stadium this season to witness the Mighty U's win a home game. Last year it was 3-4 games before I even witnessed a draw. And the year before that wasn't that good either. I was actually thinking of a season ticket this season but a lack of wheels and our relocation closer towards London has left me about a half an hour train journey away from Cambridge. I'll still try to go every now and then...

This season is looking promising again but the squad lacks depth and the young ones are still too young and inexperienced. Although a few gems have suprised so far early in the season as stand ins. Our captain Luke Guttridge (good buy in CM03/04 btw) had a bit of a push-shove-punch incident with fellow U's player Danny Webb in last Saturday's game against Shrewsbury. Luckily that's all sorted now and both have apologised for the punch-up.
Next up, Southend. Go U's !!

[SirFozzie]

:D

I actually listen to the games here in the states.. I think they'll be midtable, but I'm hoping for a promotion run.. the team is young, but talented...

[Sharpieman]

How do you all think Fulham and Chris Coleman should fare this year?

[Chief Rum]

ARGH!

So close! We had them, damnit! :(

That just goes to show how powerful the Gunners are. Nice comeback, Arsenal, and congratulations on tying the record.

JFH with another big goal against a big team. Did someone say he doesn't score goals against good teams? :)

Anyone want to offer thoughts on this round? Smith's score in the Man Utd-Norwich game was fantastic, although I feel he was just aiming for anything and got lucky.

Sharpie, I think Fulham can be a midtable team this year, but my opinion may not mean much. ;)

CR

[rexallllsc]

Anyone have a video of the Smith goal? when I started watching EPL, I followed Leeds the most, because they had some of my favorite players (Robbie Keane, Fowler), so I like watching Smith play...even if it's for ManUtd!

[TroyF]

:mad:

Stop copying me. Our internet hatred is still burning brightly within me.


Well, I'll never cheer for a Mack Brown coached team. . . so we at least have that seperating us.

[Chief Rum]

Anyone have a video of the Smith goal? when I started watching EPL, I followed Leeds the most, because they had some of my favorite players (Robbie Keane, Fowler), so I like watching Smith play...even if it's for ManUtd!

Well, someone else will have to link video for you, but I can describe it.

Smith was to the left of the goal, with two defenders on him, in the box. He chested a high cross pass from over his head, and then volleyed the kick off his own toss up. He kicked it almost straight back, toward the far post at the other end of the goal. He just caught the inside of it and bounced into the net.

CR

[daedalus]

While happy with the win, I can't say I'm thrilled with the way the game played out. Based on what I've read, if not for the magic of Dennis (whenever I have enough money for a shirt, it'll be him), we'd be toast and be looking up at Chelsea with a whole lot of what-if's and if-only's. While it sounds like he's improved to passable EPL-level quality, from the looks of it Cygan is still best as a 3rd centreback. I'd rather see if Sanderos or Hoyte can deliver than try to muddle through with Cygan. I don't think we'll survive untouched until Sol comes back (tentatively September 11) with Cygan in the back.

I'm a bit disappointed that RvP has not gotten on the pitch for the first two games. I think the plan is for him to take over for Dennis in the last half hour or so but with Dennis being the major reason for this comeback, that was obviously out of the question. Hopefully, he'll get enough chances in cup play and finishing up games that he'll be ready to be a contributing force by the end of the season. That will be a nice spark for the proverbial "dog days" (of whatever it'd be in this sport, maybe May?).

Looks like we *may* yet go back for Trabelsi. Ugh. I surely hope not. I don't like big mouths. And Trabelsi sounds like one. I like the makeup (as in the type of people) of the team as is. We definitely need another centreback, even after Sol is back. I don't know that Sanderos is ready yet. I vote for Southgate, if only to make Chief happy, but I doubt that will happen. I've heard an Italian name Oddo be mentioned. Supposedly he's an attacking fullback who can be spotty defensively, which is nice and all but we have one. I'd prefer somebody who can cover the middle. Well, and actually defend.

Looks like with Paddy staying, we're out of the running for Mascherano. Meh. From various opinions on him, I would have liked to have him on the roster anyhow. I don't have enough faith in Edu long-term, plus Brazil's FA has always been retarded. He has been described as playing the same position as Gilberto holds on the Brazillian team. That would be nice since he supposedly can actually be a factor offensively. Perhaps we could rekindle Atletico Madrid's interest in him.

Could anyone who saw the Manchester United-Norwich game please give me opinions on how David Bentley fared? The opinions on Arsenal BigSoccer board seems to be that he showed quality at times but was sloppy and gave the ball away too easily at others. The other thought seems to be that he's fairly horrible on the tackle (as in non-existent rather than dangerous). Any thoughts?

I keep reading about Patrik Berger's goal. Any thoughts from the folks who got to see it?

Amazingly, the Magpies made BANK on Jonathan Woodgate. I think it's a great deal for Newcastle. Good turnaround profit on a talented but oft-injured guy. Man, now there's an Englishman on defense, in the midfield and up front for Real. Weird. With some intelligent spending, they should be able to make up the talent loss and still profit. I think they would do well to bring on somebody older who could help bring Bramble along (like Sol being there for Kolo and Ash).

Someone like . . . Ehiogu, perhaps. :D

[andy m]

Smith's score in the Man Utd-Norwich game was fantastic

this is like saying "did you see that excellent ball-chuck by the thrower of the dallas cowboys last week?"

goal. not score.

just trying to help. and be an arsehole at the same time.

[Chief Rum]

this is like saying "did you see that excellent ball-chuck by the thrower of the dallas cowboys last week?"

goal. not score.

just trying to help. and be an arsehole at the same time.

Sorry for speaking "American". Somehow I gather your motivation more lies in that second statement, rather than the first, judging from past posts.

What did you think of Smith anyway? Wasn't that a great trade for him? He looked wonderful on the field in that game. If Man Utd wants to stay with Arsenal, they're going to need him to step it up in this early schedule. Maybe they should draft some young players to help him out. He's going to be need while Ruud is on the DL, getting aid from the team trainer in the locker room. Even better is Smith hasn't been flagged yet for unsportsmanlike, nor been ejected by the umpire.

Sorry for all the Americanisms, I guess I'm an ASShole.

CR

[TroyF]

this is like saying "did you see that excellent ball-chuck by the thrower of the dallas cowboys last week?"

goal. not score.

just trying to help. and be an arsehole at the same time.

Yeah Chief, what a dickhead. Everyone knows you say it like this:

He shot the ball for a score while playing soccer on a field across the ocean.

What the hell is wrong with you anyway Chief?

Oh, and Andy:

Any American KNOWS that a "ball-chuck" is a perfect description of how Vinnie Testaverde releases the football. The only thing incorrect in that statement is "thrower", you should just finish the damned thing as "chucker" so we can fully understand what you are talking about.

[bhlloy]

People are talking about the Smith goal but not Patrick Berger's goal for Portsmouth vs Charlton? Amazing.

One of the best 3 goals I have seen ever. Have seen a lot of goals.

Smith's goal wasn't bad either BTW, but this goal was absolutely incredible.

[condors]

Southampton needs a manager-i will email rupert lowe my cm screen shots :)

[Chief Rum]

People are talking about the Smith goal but not Patrick Berger's goal for Portsmouth vs Charlton? Amazing.

One of the best 3 goals I have seen ever. Have seen a lot of goals.

Smith's goal wasn't bad either BTW, but this goal was absolutely incredible.

I wish I had seen it. I saw highlights on the Fox Sports World news, and they just showed a handful of the games. Just flashed up the score and goals scored for the Pompey-Addicks match. :(

CR

[ISiddiqui]

:eek: Just saw a review of Berger's goal... My God, that WAS indeed better than Smith's. What an amazing goal indeed! Somewhat similar to Smith's, in that he hit the ball on a volley after twisting around (having his back to the goal), but from 25 yards out and Berger chipped the ground pass up himself (it wasn't a cross like Smith's)!

[Mac Howard]

I thought the Arsenal performance against 'boro was stunning. Sure, they let in three goals, but it was virtually three goals from three attempts with excellent finishing, but the way they took charge of the match in response was magnificent. Boro I think are a quality team this season but they just couldn't live with the gunners.

I'm currently watching the Chelsea/Palace game and the gap in quality between Arsenal and Chelsea (and I suspect Utd tonight) is enormous.

[mattwakeman]

Southampton needs a manager-i will email rupert lowe my cm screen shots :)

Something weird but true is that with the huge popularity of Champ Man in this country every vacancy in football (including the England job) now generates a story of how many people apply based purely on their success at CM!!! Looking at the tactics of Sven I feel disappointed that one of them didn't get the job...

[condors]

Chelsea really dominated possesion but didn't generate that many chances with that kind of possesion and they didn't come forward with pace and numbers like Arsenal does Joe Cole seemed to bring some attacking mindset, the last 2 games Lampard seems to have lost his ability to get a shot on frame.

[Mac Howard]

Yes, Cole was surely the best attacking influence in the team and Lampard peculiarly quiet. There's currently little attacking fluidity in the Chelsea play - not surprising so early and so many new players - but I'm not sure how much of this is down to that or Mourinho's approach. He's taking a lot of stick in the press, not helped by his repeated "hey, who won the CL, then?" to every question he sees as threatening, and I'm not sure if this will drive him further into the negative approach or whether he'll react by loosening the defensive strings.

[Katon]

Well, I summed up the optimistic view on the subject above, so I'll just reiterate that we were playing perfectly attractive football during our friendlies in the US.

The pessimistic view . . . well, a more successful version of George Graham's Arsenal isn't the worst team in the world to be. Minus the bungs, preferably.

Of course, we did see something of this last year - we were a completely different team when Duff was fit from when he was injured. There were plenty of matches under Ranieri which looked just as poor offensively and relied a lot more on luck defensively than Mourinho has so far (or so I've heard; I've been up in Nova Scotia recently, on a very poorly-timed vacation).

[Desnudo]

I managed to catch some of the Arsenal-Norwich game. Arsenal just looks ridiculously good. Norwich actually played pretty well overall, but still never got close. I hope they continue to feature Arsenal on Fox SW because their brand of football is so enjoyable to watch. It's like they're all linked together through ESP.

[TroyF]

I managed to catch some of the Arsenal-Norwich game. Arsenal just looks ridiculously good. Norwich actually played pretty well overall, but still never got close. I hope they continue to feature Arsenal on Fox SW because their brand of football is so enjoyable to watch. It's like they're all linked together through ESP.

Yeah. They got a couple of breaks in the game, but they simply look like a team that's playing on another planet right now.

It's early and they have tougher competition to play than they've seen thus far. . . but they are playing some impressive soccer right now and they are doing it without a couple of their better players. I think ManU and Chelsea had better be very careful giving up points this year. A bad two week stretch might be enough to take them out of the race for the title.

Kudos to Arsenal for playing some of the prettiest soccer I've ever seen. (no, I haven't seen a lot in my lifetime, but I can't imagine it could get much better than what I'm seeing right now)

[bhlloy]

Have just been discussing this over a few beers... Arsenal are simply on another planet now. Skillwise nobody can touch them, and Wenger has to be the best evaluator of talent in the game right now. He just doesn't make big name signings that completely bomb.

Speaking of which... how Drogba is in the side ahead of Gudjohnsen (or Hasselbaink to open up that can of worms again) is completely ludicrous. He hasn't hurt Chelsea with his poor play so far because they have a 100% record, but he will if he doesn't start to play better. I hope this isn't Mourinho's pride coming into play and refusing to believe that he's made a mistake. Maybe Drogba will adapt to the game, but he has been completely abysmal so far. One decent goal but a lot of bad misses and has wasted a lot of possesion.

[Mac Howard]

Another awesome performance by Arsenal - what a find they have with the 17 year old Fabrigas. They haven't missed Vieira at all. The football is a joy to watch.

Drogba needs a little leeway. It takes time to adjust to the pace of the English game.

[Desnudo]

Another awesome performance by Arsenal - what a find they have with the 17 year old Fabrigas. They haven't missed Vieira at all. The football is a joy to watch.

Drogba needs a little leeway. It takes time to adjust to the pace of the English game.

I agree about Drogba, he'll come around in time. The more he plays, the faster it'll be. I think the whole Chelsea side is still adapting to a new coaching style. It takes a while to adjust.

The question is what do they do with Fabrigas. He's surely earned a spot in the starting 11. Although maybe that won't be a problem for a while with UEFA Cup matches starting soon.

[Mac Howard]

The question is what do they do with Fabrigas. He's surely earned a spot in the starting 11.

He's only 17 so I think Wenger will want to play him relatively sparingly so as to avoid burn out. Playing Fabrigas will allow him to rest Vieira and Gilberto. It's a problem I'm sure he's pleased with :)

[Desnudo]

He's only 17 so I think Wenger will want to play him relatively sparingly so as to avoid burn out. Playing Fabrigas will allow him to rest Vieira and Gilberto. It's a problem I'm sure he's pleased with :)

The next FM 05 wonderkid for sure.

[Sharpieman]

Its ALMOST official...Rooney to Man U for 25mil (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/3611234.stm)

[Mac Howard]

I don't think the fat lady has sung yet on this. It's 2 hours to midnight here and only 8 hours in front of the UK. So 10 hours to seal it.

I have to feel sorry for Moyes who's been between a rock and a hard place. When the fans booed Rooney on Saturday then that was it. He's no use to Everton anymore because there's no way an 18 year old youngster is going to run out onto the pitch and perform for a club with the fans booing him.

But it's left Moyes with no time to get the players he needs. He'll now have to wait until January by which time the club could be in serious relegation trouble (though they put up a spirited fight yesterday). Moyes deserves a break. He's a good young manager at a badly run club.

[ISiddiqui]

Damn... in one of my fantasy leagues I had Yakubu and transfered him out this weekend... damn. :(

[MIJB#19]

Hmm, Dutch strikers are playing well so far, except the injured Ruud van "the man" Nistelrooij:

Hasselbaink: 4 games, 3 goals
Bergkamp: 4 games, 3 goals
Kluivert: 3 goals, 1 goal
John: selected for Oranje

[Crapshoot]

I don't think the fat lady has sung yet on this. It's 2 hours to midnight here and only 8 hours in front of the UK. So 10 hours to seal it.

I have to feel sorry for Moyes who's been between a rock and a hard place. When the fans booed Rooney on Saturday then that was it. He's no use to Everton anymore because there's no way an 18 year old youngster is going to run out onto the pitch and perform for a club with the fans booing him.

But it's left Moyes with no time to get the players he needs. He'll now have to wait until January by which time the club could be in serious relegation trouble (though they put up a spirited fight yesterday). Moyes deserves a break. He's a good young manager at a badly run club.

Meh- I also think Everton isnt taking the hidden cost of relegation into account- that's a 20 million pound dip, right there. If they had been smart and told Man u to make a bid 3 weeks ago rather than pussyfooting around- they would have had time to spend some money on replacements- as opposed to waht they have now, which is crap. When Thomas Gravensen is the best player by far on your squad, you have issues (not that he's bad- its just that hes the best left by far). Everton are odds on favorites for the drop IMO- cant score, can't really defend (although Martyn seems to be doing it by himself lately), and have little to no creativity in the midfield. A striker and a defender would be nice, as would a creative midfielder, especially on the wings. Fundementally, I cant think of any player other than Gravensen who would start or play for any top 10 side.

[Critch]

Rooney has signed for Man Utd, it's finally been confirmed.

Everton seem to have got a good deal I think, 20million pounds now, 7mill over the next few years plus 25% of any future transfer fee. A lot of money for a player who collected more bookings than goals during his Everton career, a good deal for both teams I think.

[Desnudo]

Added detail: 10 million now, 10 million payable - August 2005. Now the question is, who can they talk into playing at Everton that has the talent to keep them above the board?

[Crapshoot]

Added detail: 10 million now, 10 million payable - August 2005. Now the question is, who can they talk into playing at Everton that has the talent to keep them above the board?

within the next 5 hours- 7 pm est is 12 pm GMT, when the deadline is.

[SirFozzie]

Interesting, apparently the top name to replace Sir Bobby Robson.. Alan Shearer?!?!?!

[Desnudo]

within the next 5 hours- 7 pm est is 12 pm GMT, when the deadline is.

One hour to go. Any word on Beckham returning to England in an Everton uni?

[Katon]

Meh- I also think Everton isnt taking the hidden cost of relegation into account- that's a 20 million pound dip, right there. If they had been smart and told Man u to make a bid 3 weeks ago rather than pussyfooting around- they would have had time to spend some money on replacements- as opposed to waht they have now, which is crap. When Thomas Gravensen is the best player by far on your squad, you have issues (not that he's bad- its just that hes the best left by far). Everton are odds on favorites for the drop IMO- cant score, can't really defend (although Martyn seems to be doing it by himself lately), and have little to no creativity in the midfield. A striker and a defender would be nice, as would a creative midfielder, especially on the wings. Fundementally, I cant think of any player other than Gravensen who would start or play for any top 10 side.

Your criticism of Everton is perfectly true, but then it was true last season too - when they had Rooney. They didn't improve over the summer, and it's highly unlikely that all three of the newly promoted sides will go down as meekly as Leeds, Wolves, and Lecester did last year. If Everton are relegated (which I think they will be) it probably won't be because they're missing Rooney. Especially considering that he hasn't actually been all that great in the Premiership in the past. Last year, he scored 9 goals in 34 games; the season before that, 6 in 33. Everton can get more than that for this money, and there's little reason to think that he would have done significantly better if he'd been forced to stay at Everton. He probably will improve now that he's with a better coaching staff and better players, but if he'd stayed then his game wouldn't have moved on nearly as much. I really don't think that six months of an unhappy Rooney will turn out to be the difference between Premiership and Championship football next season.

[Katon]

Interesting, apparently the top name to replace Sir Bobby Robson.. Alan Shearer?!?!?!

Which raises an intruiging question - if Shearer does get the job, and then drops himself, who gets fired?

[Desnudo]

Your criticism of Everton is perfectly true, but then it was true last season too - when they had Rooney. They didn't improve over the summer, and it's highly unlikely that all three of the newly promoted sides will go down as meekly as Leeds, Wolves, and Lecester did last year. If Everton are relegated (which I think they will be) it probably won't be because they're missing Rooney. Especially considering that he hasn't actually been all that great in the Premiership in the past. Last year, he scored 9 goals in 34 games; the season before that, 6 in 33. Everton can get more than that for this money, and there's little reason to think that he would have done significantly better if he'd been forced to stay at Everton. He probably will improve now that he's with a better coaching staff and better players, but if he'd stayed then his game wouldn't have moved on nearly as much. I really don't think that six months of an unhappy Rooney will turn out to be the difference between Premiership and Championship football next season.

What are the relegation odds at the bookies? I'd lay money down that Norwich stays up, and WBA looks like they have a shot also. Everton at least had a danger man in Rooney, now they look pathetic. Keeping in mind that he was 17 when he scored 9 and 16 when he scored 6, I think each of the next few years will show huge improvements in his play.

[Katon]

Improvements, yes. But even at Man U - where he'll develop rather more than he would have at Everton - he probably won't become the type of player who can single-handedly keep a team up in the next nine months. Given that, Everton can get at least as much from an eight-digit sum well-spent as they would have from Rooney.

[Critch]

What are the relegation odds at the bookies?

Ladbrokes (one of the big bookmakers in the UK) has Everton at 5 to 1 to be relegated, with 6 clubs rated as more likely to go down. The three new boys (Palace, Norwich and WBA) are odds on to go down, then Portsmouth, Southampton and Blackburn.

Everton have started the season pretty well, two wins and a good draw at Man Utd (where Everton had a couple of good shouts for penalties turned down so could have sneaked a win). They've got one of the best managers about in Moyes, they're steady and experienced at the back, fairly strong in midfield (where Tim Cahill looks like he could be a great addition). They'll grind out a few results and with the financial worries reduced with the sale of Rooney I'd guess they're a good bet to stay up, even with a weak forward line. Marcus Bent, Kevin Cambell and Drunken Duncan Ferguson aren't going to be scoring a huge amount.

[bhlloy]

Interesting, apparently the top name to replace Sir Bobby Robson.. Alan Shearer?!?!?!


This was always going to happen at the end of the year anyway, Shearer might just be player-manager for the rest of the season.

Consensus is he'll be a quality manager, but pretty unpredictable how great players make the switch over. See Gullit, Ruud.

[Crapshoot]

Improvements, yes. But even at Man U - where he'll develop rather more than he would have at Everton - he probably won't become the type of player who can single-handedly keep a team up in the next nine months. Given that, Everton can get at least as much from an eight-digit sum well-spent as they would have from Rooney.

well yes, except the transfer window has closed, and they can't acquire anyone till January now- that was the point. I think selling him was correct- but the gossip was around all summer, and they should have done something about it- or accepted to offers from Man U a couple of days ago so they could sign some (any) replacements. Right now, the strike force consists of Kevin cambell, Duncan Ferguson, Marcus Bent, and James McFadden- none of those players would be starting for any other team in the premiership.

[Desnudo]

Improvements, yes. But even at Man U - where he'll develop rather more than he would have at Everton - he probably won't become the type of player who can single-handedly keep a team up in the next nine months. Given that, Everton can get at least as much from an eight-digit sum well-spent as they would have from Rooney.

Maybe, but his performance at Euro 2004 seemed to indicate that he's got something special now. Granted that international form doesn't always translate to league form, but look what happened to England once he got hurt. He was clearly impacting the game on his own and their chance to win it all went out the window when he got knocked out.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, on the Shearer manager thing, he was being tagged to do it after he retired. The Magpies just started soooo poorly they decided to let him take over now. Couldn't hurt.

[Katon]

well yes, except the transfer window has closed, and they can't acquire anyone till January now- that was the point. I think selling him was correct- but the gossip was around all summer, and they should have done something about it- or accepted to offers from Man U a couple of days ago so they could sign some (any) replacements. Right now, the strike force consists of Kevin cambell, Duncan Ferguson, Marcus Bent, and James McFadden- none of those players would be starting for any other team in the premiership.

They certainly would've been better off if they'd made this deal earlier in the transfer window, but it's still a good deal even at this point. I mean, no matter how talented Rooney is, his position is not the one where United most needed to spend money - in fact, I would say that striker is the only position where they're deep in genuine quality players. When you add in the fact that Rooney was forcing Everton's hand, only a combination of the rapidly approaching deadline and United's current injury crisis could have pushed the price up as high as it reached. They would probably have gotten significantly less money for him in January, and under the circumstances (wants to leave, being booed by the fans) I really doubt he would have done anything so exceptional as to be worth the extra money.

[Critch]

BBC is reporting that Porto pulled out of a deal to send Benny McCarthy to Everton hours before the deadline last night. If Everton had managed to pull that off for a reasonable price, they'd have been in a good position.

[Crapshoot]

aye- caught that critch. that does put a different light on things. Im surprised that they didnt let him go-they dumped Janakauskas and added Fabinio and Postiga- one would think dumping McCarthy was the next course of action. They dont need the money, but its probably an improved force. as it right now, Everton doesnt have a striker who would start, and might not make the bench for any other premiership team. The team has one above average player in Gravensen, and a goalie who's seemingly re-discovered his youth at 38. Not the best bet in the world- even money says they go down (by the time they can spend again in January, I imagine it will be too late).

[Mac Howard]

I don't think that Everton could have pushed the sale forward to take advantage of the money. The noises coming out of Old Trafford imply that Utd were leaving it until January or next season when Rooney's contract expiry was closer and the price would be much less. It was the Newcastle bid that made them realise that they had to move quickly or lose him. When Rooney put in his transfer request and the Everton fans booed him last weekend then he became useless to Everton and they had to sell or sit out half the season with an expensive player they couldn't play. No player will give you a performance with his own fans booing him.

[SirFozzie]

The HELL????

Southampton are not planning 'any formal announcements' over what role Sir Clive Woodward might play at the club.

Saints chairman Rupert Lowe has admitted the possibility of the England rugby union coach - who has yet to hand in his resignation despite indicating yesterday that he planned to - taking on a role at the Premiership club is 'an exciting concept'.

Lowe, who is a close friend of Woodward, was expected to discuss the idea with his board of directors today.

But with Woodward's lawyers still locked in talks with the Rugby Football Union this afternoon, Lowe would only say: 'I know the media would like everything neatly pigeon-holed now - but in real life things do not always work like that.'

He told the club's official website: 'We are not able to say anything for definite at the moment. After today's board meeting we will meet with supporters groups and it is quite right that we talk to them first.

'At this stage I don't know how much - if anything - we will have to say. Tomorrow we will be announcing our annual figures which will include a general statement from me but we are not currently planning any formal announcements.'

A Rugby coach, training footy players? THE HELL?

[mattwakeman]

Yeah its a weird one for sure. One of the things that may well hold Sir Clive back is the inbuilt attitude that exists in football (like every other sport) to demand that people should 'show us your medals'.

He was a great manager for the rugby team and even though the wheels have fallen off since the World Cup win there is no doubt his talent for the job. But why would anyone give him a football job because of his succes in rugby? Apparently he is great friends with the Southampton chairman but is that enough reason for Lowe to take such a great risk? To a certain extent all of this is a moot point since Woodward has a contract to take the Lions on tour and no premiership club would be happy for their manager to spend half a week dealing with Lions stuff and then going off on tour for a few months.

But hey, why not? Why not get Jonny Wilkinson to play footy or get Beckham to take up rugby, after all, he knows how to get the ball to go over the bar well enough...;)

[Desnudo]

I think they'll be able to achieve/maintain low-midtable obscurity no matter who's managing.

[Chief Rum]

You see, this just validates all of those awful beginning-of-CM-dynasty hired a Yank outta nowhere beginnings (which I have used myself ;) ).

Now, we can pull off the ole I can take over a major club with no experience and yet retain credibility. :)

CR

[Mac Howard]

Apparently Woodward's managerial method is to employ specialists coaches in each aspect of the game and he merely oversees the coaching team. All decisions regarding coaching and play he makes by consulting the appropriate specialist and accepting his advice. So not having a deal of experience in soccer does not affect his abilty to manage a club. So he says :rolleyes:

[mattwakeman]

Makes no diff now anyway. Woodward has said that he has no plans to take any other job until he has taken care of Lions business. I think he'll then go freelance (motivational speaker / business) or take up some other job in rugby but I just cannot see any serious size footy team giving him the managers job....then again, Newcastle are looking at the moment and their fans are demanding a foreign coach (since they are all the vogue...Chrisitan Gross anyone?), maybe coaching in a foreign sport would be just as good...:)

[mattwakeman]

In a somewhat bizarre move BBC sport have confirmed that the new manager of Newcastle is...Graeme Souness:

link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/default.stm

story:

Souness set for Newcastle

Graeme Souness has quit as Blackburn manager to take over at Newcastle, BBC Sport can confirm.

Blackburn have revealed Souness has left the club and that he has agreed terms to succeed Sir Bobby Robson.

Newcastle had targeted Birmingham's Steve Bruce and Aston Villa manager David O'Leary.

Souness will take charge on Monday 13 September, after Newcastle's game against Blackburn on Saturday, although he leaves Ewood Park immediately.

O'Leary appeared to be favourite for the job after Bruce insisted he would be staying at St Andrews.

But Souness, regarded as an outsider for the post, is poised to take over at the troubled Tyneside club after talks with chairman Freddy Shepherd.

Souness is understood to have told Blackburn's players he was leaving the club when they arrived for training on Monday morning.

If Souness's appointment is confirmed in time, his first game in charge will be against his former club Blackburn at St James' Park on Saturday.

Former Liverpool manager Gerard Houllier has been touted among the early contenders to replace Souness at Blackburn.

Souness, a 51-year-old Scot, was a former star player at Liverpool.

He was also manager at Galatasaray, Southampton, Torino and Benfica before taking over at Blackburn in March 2000.

First of the fans reactions:

Souness a step up from Bobby Robson? Is this some sort of joke?
From MU

As a Birmingham City fan I am just pleased that they haven't really gone for Steve Bruce as I think the Geordie links might have been just too much for him to say no to. On the whole though, I think that this is a really strange decision by Newcastle. Souness has a history of being abrasive and divisive with players and apart from Rangers his rate of success is not that good. Weird.

[SirFozzie]

Well.. an interesting week.

Real Madrid now after Gerrard.

Man Yoo Again steal a point after a Silvestre blunder costs Timmah.. I think SAF is beginning to lose patience with howard..

Cambridge can only get a draw (ok, it's League Two.. but hell, it's quiet) :D

[Mac Howard]

The honeymoon for Tim is over at Old Trafford now and the time when he was judged on his potential has ended. In truth he hasn't moved on at all since he joined Utd at the beginning of last season and he can expect more criticism from here on if he continues to make errors like the one against Bolton. I'm beginning to think that he may not have the thick skin you need to withstand the sort of criticism that you can get from the British tabloid press (note the "donkey" episode for the England 'keeper James) and I fear for his confidence when they turn against him.

[Critch]

After the Chelsea 0-0 Spurs game yesterday Mourinho complained about the Spurs defensive tactics and said "If I paid £50 to see this match I would have been frustrated because only one team was trying to play football." Two questions:

1. How can the creator of boring boring Chelsea complaining about another teams defensive tactics?

2. Is it really 50 quid to get into a Premiership game now? Wow, last time I went to an EPL game it was 18. Admitedly it was long enough ago that Arsenal were the boring London team in those days.

Other than that, three cheers for FSW. I can now spend pretty much the whole weekend stuck on my recliner watching the beautiful game. Wonder if wifey will leave me before the end of the season :)

[SirFozzie]

And Real Madrid's coach resigns after four months, because they lost 3-0 in the Champions League and then to Espanyol when he sat a couple of the Galacticos. Guess he didn't feel the support of the players

[Crapshoot]

Firing Del Bosque was the dumbest move Perez has made- bar none. At Real Madrid, there just so much ego that can be had- and the coach can't afford to as well.

[Critch]

On a sad note Brian Clough, manager of Nottingham Forest when they won back to back European Cups in '79 and '80, died today. He was 69.

A real character and took a smaller side to a level of success that's normally only possible in CM.

[Crapshoot]

On a sad note Brian Clough, manager of Nottingham Forest when they won back to back European Cups in '79 and '80, died today. He was 69.

A real character and took a smaller side to a level of success that's normally only possible in CM.

that sucks- though I would dispute your characterization of Forest then as small- the discrepency between the top and the bottom was a lot smaller, IMO.
Clough was by all accounts a character though.

[Katon]

After the Chelsea 0-0 Spurs game yesterday Mourinho complained about the Spurs defensive tactics and said "If I paid £50 to see this match I would have been frustrated because only one team was trying to play football." Two questions:

1. How can the creator of boring boring Chelsea complaining about another teams defensive tactics?

2. Is it really 50 quid to get into a Premiership game now? Wow, last time I went to an EPL game it was 18. Admitedly it was long enough ago that Arsenal were the boring London team in those days.

Other than that, three cheers for FSW. I can now spend pretty much the whole weekend stuck on my recliner watching the beautiful game. Wonder if wifey will leave me before the end of the season :)

Apart from his inexplicable aversion to starting Damien Duff, Mourinho hasn't been all that boring at Chelsea. Before anyone brings up the Man U game, let me repeat my earlier argument: there is no way that Mourinho was going to get anything close to his preferred style of football from a midfield featuring Claud Makelele, Geremi, and Alexei Smertin. I believe that even more firmly now that I've seen what a first-choice Chelsea midfield looks like (in terms of both players and style). It's Porto whose approach to playing more talented teams cut Mourinho off from the moral high ground here. Although I will note that they were never quite as negative as Spurs were.

[Critch]

I would dispute your characterization of Forest then as small- the discrepency between the top and the bottom was a lot smaller, IMO.
Clough was by all accounts a character though.

Hey now, I said Forest were "smaller", not "small" :)

I agree that the gap between top and bottom was a lot smaller, success was less tied to money than it is now. Even so, Clough's record of promotion one season, league champions next, European Cup winners the next season, retain the European Cup the next is comic-book stuff even with the changes in the game since then. His run at Forest from the 1976-77 season to the 1979-80 season was just about the most remarkable 4 season run in the English leagues history.

[Critch]

Apart from his inexplicable aversion to starting Damien Duff, Mourinho hasn't been all that boring at Chelsea. Before anyone brings up the Man U game, let me repeat my earlier argument: there is no way that Mourinho was going to get anything close to his preferred style of football from a midfield featuring Claud Makelele, Geremi, and Alexei Smertin. I believe that even more firmly now that I've seen what a first-choice Chelsea midfield looks like (in terms of both players and style). It's Porto whose approach to playing more talented teams cut Mourinho off from the moral high ground here. Although I will note that they were never quite as negative as Spurs were.

Dola...

I luckily missed the Spurs game yesterday (ppv is seriously expensive) but I've seen a few Chelsea game this season (v Man Utd, v Birmingham, v Palace, v Villa) and they've been less than adventurous in all of them. I don't think the "boring boring Chelsea" chants and headlines are all down to the Man Utd game, but the fact that they're loaded with talent but seem to concentrate more on not conceding goals that scoring them (so far).

When challenged about his team's negative play, Mourinho has been pointing to the results as a defense. So I thought he was a bit out of turn condemning Spurs for their tactics when it got them a result they'd be happy with.

I have read though that Spurs were remarkably negative. A change for a team that normally prides themselves on playing attacking football, even when they're crap. Wonder how they're fans will take the negative style if Santini uses it regularly.

[Katon]

I was out of the country for the Man U, Birmingham, and Palace games, so my ability to comment on those is somewhat limited. The matches I have seen live, either in person or on the television, were Southampton, Villa, PSG, and Spurs. Southampton and PSG we tore apart; no complaints about either of those. Spurs . . . well, we finished the match playing a 3-3-4. I've got a few complaints about the quality of our attacking, but not about the degree to which we were doing it. Villa, I will grant you, was not our most exciting performance.

[Mac Howard]

>Clough was by all accounts a character though.

Amen to that! Often the after match press conference was more entertaining than the match :)

[condors]

what a difference a year makes for the American keepers in the EPL.

Tim Howard was out of the lineup yesterday for manutd and has not been playing to the same standard he was last year

Kaser Keller has lost his place in the first team and may not get another shot in the top flight unless he continues to play well for team USA in the qualifiers.

Brad Freidel-he is the man, no doubt in my mind but world cup is still 2 years away and he is no spring chicken.

There is another young guy who's name is escaping me at the moment but he is just playing with the reserves and that is all that is expected from him for now.

Bascially i don't want to hear about how many great American goalkeepers there are. Joe Cannon is no spring chicken. Adin Brown needs to get healthly and play consistantly for a while before brought into team USA.

Hey got a little off my topic but if you were Bruce Arena who would you be playing in the qualifiers for the world cup? I can't complain about Keller he has been great but i don't believe he will be the guy when world cup comes around (much like the last time, use keller to qualify then put in Friedel)
My worry is Tim Howard while i feel he will be USA#1 at some point, i don't think any of the other goalkeeping prospects have panned out as well. Nick Rimmando and Adin Brown have both been injuried and inconsistant. Should Bruce Arena expect Keller and Friedel to be able to produce in 2006? They will be 36 and its not unheard of for a keeper to not be as good at 36 as they were at 32. Maybe i am worried about nothing. I would like to see a young keeper get some chances but then i look and not sure any currently have a chance to push Howard for the #1 job down the road. I honestly believe the internal competition between Keller and Freidel made both of them better.

just some random babbling

What would you do with the team usa's Goalkeepers? I would bring Busch in from the Columbus Crew and get a good look at him. The last 2 seasons he has played very well in the MLS. I would start Keller as i doubt he would be happy about being benched (again)

[Desnudo]

I would play Howard most of the time, especially in non-essential matches at home. It's pretty obvious he's head and shoulders above any other up and comer.

[Desnudo]

Dola

In a random sports programming moment, I just noticed ESPN2 is showing the Real v. Roma CL league match next Tuesday at 2:30 PM EST.

[Sharpieman]

I'm watching the Bolton vs. Arsenal right now on Fox Sports Net.

[Sharpieman]

dola, of course it already was played on the 19th but fun to watch it none the less

[SirFozzie]

Hmm.. checked out one of the sports blogs I read... How come I did not hear of this?

[b]The weirdest match of the week though goes to Dynamo Kiev visiting AS Roma. The game was abandoned at halftime after the referee was struck with an object thrown from the crowd. Kiev was leading 1-0 and Roma’s Philippe Mexes had just been sent off for kicking an opponent when the ref’s head was busted open by, apparently, a cigarette lighter. Roma now is facing severe penalties from UEFA. The best part of the story though is that the referee, Anders Frisk, was the referee of the 2002 Champions League game played at Roma when there was the riot between Roma and Galatasaray. Yeah, maybe he shouldn’t step foot in that stadium again

[Desnudo]

Hmm.. checked out one of the sports blogs I read... How come I did not hear of this?

[b]The weirdest match of the week though goes to Dynamo Kiev visiting AS Roma. The game was abandoned at halftime after the referee was struck with an object thrown from the crowd. Kiev was leading 1-0 and Roma’s Philippe Mexes had just been sent off for kicking an opponent when the ref’s head was busted open by, apparently, a cigarette lighter. Roma now is facing severe penalties from UEFA. The best part of the story though is that the referee, Anders Frisk, was the referee of the 2002 Champions League game played at Roma when there was the riot between Roma and Galatasaray. Yeah, maybe he shouldn’t step foot in that stadium again

It's been resolved. Roma handed a 3-0 loss and will have to play its final two home group matches in an empty stadium. Sometimes I love the style of FIFA or UEFA or whoever disciplines over there. Can you imagine an NFL or MLB team having to play out a playoff series in empty stadiums?

[Crapshoot]

Hmm.. checked out one of the sports blogs I read... How come I did not hear of this?

[b]The weirdest match of the week though goes to Dynamo Kiev visiting AS Roma. The game was abandoned at halftime after the referee was struck with an object thrown from the crowd. Kiev was leading 1-0 and Roma’s Philippe Mexes had just been sent off for kicking an opponent when the ref’s head was busted open by, apparently, a cigarette lighter. Roma now is facing severe penalties from UEFA. The best part of the story though is that the referee, Anders Frisk, was the referee of the 2002 Champions League game played at Roma when there was the riot between Roma and Galatasaray. Yeah, maybe he shouldn’t step foot in that stadium again

you didnt hear about this ? Kiev just got awarded a 3-0 win.

[bhlloy]

They are very lucky they didn't get kicked out of the tournament... they have a history of this kind of thing. When I saw it I thought they were gone for sure, a 3-0 loss in a match the odds say they would have lost anyway seems incredibly lenient.

[Glengoyne]

I may be joining this thread soon. I discovered the late night Premier league matches on Wednesdays, and then the games during the day on Saturday. I couldn't believe it, I was watching Soccer instead of College football on Saturday.

I find it a bit astonishing that a computer game, has enabled me to appreciate, even anticipate, watching soccer on T.V. My hat is off to SI, because I couldn't have imagined saying that, even a few years ago. My wife, of course, just blames "that game with the dots" for my latest reason to skip mowing the lawn.

[Chief Rum]

Glad you broguht this thread up. I watched my Boro almost beat Man U at Old Trafford Sunday morning (for me).

I was disappointed we let Alan Smith get the equaliser, but to be fair, Man U dominated the second half and we were probably lucky to escape with a draw.

CR

[Mac Howard]

McClaren has Ferguson beaten all ends up when it comes to effective tactics. Makes you wonder how much of Utd's success when he was at Old Trafford was down to him :rolleyes:

Go to any Man Utd forum and you'll see it littered with Utd fans asking "why the hell O'Shea, Alex?". Here you are playing at Old Trafford against a side you should normally beat, who are severely depleted through injury and would clearly play defence in depth. You have arguably the best two wingers in the Premiership in Ronaldo and Giggs and two of the three best strikers in van Nistelrooy and Rooney. But wingers and strikers need quality service from midfield so YOU play an out-of-form fullback in central midfield. Keane and O'Shea don't have a creative bone in their body and you leave a World Cup winning Brazilian on the bench in order to play O'Shea :confused:

[Chief Rum]

Actually, it was amazing to me when they put on Smith. I was ticking them all off in my mind...Ruud, Rooney, Smith, Giggs, Ronaldo...any of those guys could have really hurt us. Some serious star power.

And, yeah, with all of our injuries, you had to expect we would play defensive. I really liked the play of Downey (again), and Morrison has been a seriously pleasant surprise (didn't see him staking a first team spot at all, frankly).

You guys need to play Spector! :)

CR

[Mac Howard]

Actually, it was amazing to me when they put on Smith. I was ticking them all off in my mind...Ruud, Rooney, Smith, Giggs, Ronaldo...any of those guys could have really hurt us. Some serious star power.

That's right. But no creative midfielder to give them the service they need. When Smith was brought on and Rooney moved to midfield in place of O'Shea they were better but it was too little too late (I knew I'd get that cliche in one day :) )

These players will score goals for you through sheer individual brilliance but to do it consistently against determined defences they need guile from midfield to set up the situations they can exploit.

It's all about balance and, even with players like this, a weakness in one area, particularly central midfield, will hurt you.

You guys need to play Spector! :)

CR

I've only seen Heinze twice so far but he does need to calm down a little and not commit himself so readily as he did for the Boro goal. Terrific cross by the way. Some are criticising the three defenders who watched it across the box but when it's hit so hard and accurately across the edge of the six yard box like that then an own goal is a likely as a clearance. It was an excellent goal.

I've only seen Spector once and he looked very good. I think Alex will bring him on slowly and not risk the sort of confidence reaction he had from O'Shea after a brilliant first season.

When Boro get their players back (and Utd fans are empathetic about this :) ) then Boro will be a force to reckon with.

[Crapshoot]

McClaren has Ferguson beaten all ends up when it comes to effective tactics. Makes you wonder how much of Utd's success when he was at Old Trafford was down to him :rolleyes:

Go to any Man Utd forum and you'll see it littered with Utd fans asking "why the hell O'Shea, Alex?". Here you are playing at Old Trafford against a side you should normally beat, who are severely depleted through injury and would clearly play defence in depth. You have arguably the best two wingers in the Premiership in Ronaldo and Giggs and two of the three best strikers in van Nistelrooy and Rooney. But wingers and strikers need quality service from midfield so YOU play an out-of-form fullback in central midfield. Keane and O'Shea don't have a creative bone in their body and you leave a World Cup winning Brazilian on the bench in order to play O'Shea :confused:

I have to admit- McMahon and Downing both impressed me, a lot. As for OShea- he looks like a shadow of the player who impressed so much last year.. As for Rooney- he scored 9 premier league goals last year Mac- I'd wait a while before calling him one of the best 3... :D

Also - was Scholes injured ? If so, why not drop Smith up front and Let Rooney run at them from midfield from the beginning ?

on Heinze- Ive been impressed- definite potential, especially offensively. Not an out and out fullback a la Carlos- but seems like he could play like O Shea did a couple of years ago.

last one- I swear- bets on where Wes Brown ends up ? my guess- Boro, or Newcastle (desperately need a CD- will pay with the Woodgate cash.)

[Chief Rum]

Aadik, I was wondering about Scholes, too, as I hadn't read anything. But it wouldn't be the first time I missed out on info like that. :) Agreed on McMahon, too. He was great yesterday.

Mac, I forgot about Heinze. You know, I have only seen him in this one match, and I think I already dislike him. I have never seen a defender take so many dives in my life. He spent more time with his arse on the pitch than he did on his feet, and every time, he had this little whiny face on like it was "obvious" he deserved a call. :)

Thanks for the empathy on our injury situation. It's been ugly. Good to see that key reserves/kids like Morrison and McMahopn and Parnaby have been able to step up.

Oh, one more comment before I forget. I couldn't believe we were marking Ronaldo with Cooper. I have a lot of respect for the old guy, but he couldn't stay with Ronaldo when he was in his prime.

CR

[Crapshoot]

Cooper couldn't stay with Ronaldo if you gave him a Jet Pack.. .:D

btw- would be nice to end up with Brown eh CR ? Southgate is getting up there ,and Riggot seems to be so-so..- Ehigou is good, but injury prone. Plus, Brown can slot in at the right.

[Chief Rum]

Boy, I have been out of the loop. :) They're looking at bringing in Brown? That would be a definite upgrade, although he didn't exactly give himself a ringing endorsement replacing Ferdinand last year. But, no, our options at centreback are pretty slim. Ugo's injury problems have been very annoying, although I sometimes think Southgate can keep going on forever. :)

So Brown would fit in just right.

CR

[Crapshoot]

Boy, I have been out of the loop. :) They're looking at bringing in Brown? That would be a definite upgrade, although he didn't exactly give himself a ringing endorsement replacing Ferdinand last year. But, no, our options at centreback are pretty slim. Ugo's injury problems have been very annoying, although I sometimes think Southgate can keep going on forever. :)

So Brown would fit in just right.

CR

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=312118&cc=5739

Boro hasnt been linked to him- I just see them as the most likely destination, along with Newcastle...

[Chief Rum]

Thanks for the link. I'll have to keep an eye on that situation.

CR

[Mac Howard]

Scholes has been injured. I believe he was almost ok - was on the squad availability list but I think Alex left him off the starters/bench to ensure he would be fully recovered when he does come back. He should be back after the International break.

But Kleberson is the obvious replacement for Scholes. He's looked good this year but, for some reason none of us can figure, Alex doesn't give him much playing time. He's stronger in the tackle than Scholes (was actually DM for Brazil but that doesn't mean much in tackling terms :) ) but not as creative as yet. But he would have been far superior to O'Shea.

I hope Brown doesn't go. The main problem with him is that he's injury prone. Never seems to put more than half a dozen matches together. His poor performance last season was because he came back to fill in for the banned Ferdinand after a very long injury and just wasn't fit. Towards the end of the season he was playing well and the Utd defence wasn't leaking goals to anything like the same degree.

But Alex should keep him. Utd are not overburdened with good CBs and he's probably the first replacement for Ferdinand or Silvestre.

[daedalus]

Hey, Matthijs . . .

I don't know if you've seen this already but I thought you might get a kick out of this shirt: Bergkamp t-shirt (http://www.harderthansatan.com/boys_Bergkamp.htm).

Also, might be of interest to you that the two Arsenal players that made the best showing in their Carling Cup game were Van Persie and a kid name Quincy Owusu Abeyie who joined Arsenal from Ajax.

For the Americans, of course, Daniel Karbasiyoon scored and became the first American to score a goal for the Gunners. Yay!

[Chief Rum]

Hey, Matthijs . . .

I don't know if you've seen this already but I thought you might get a kick out of this shirt: Bergkamp t-shirt (http://www.harderthansatan.com/boys_Bergkamp.htm).

Also, might be of interest to you that the two Arsenal players that made the best showing in their Carling Cup game were Van Persie and a kid name Quincy Owusu Abeyie who joined Arsenal from Ajax.

For the Americans, of course, Daniel Karbasiyoon scored and became the first American to score a goal for the Gunners. Yay!

So, my Dutch is a little rusty. What's the shirt say? :)

Bummer about the Boro, although drawing Pool at this point was disappointing and unlucky. I would have hoped we would have lasted longer int he tourney we won last year.

But then we did paste Lazio in European action last week, and we're doign quite well considering most of our first eleven is rather far short of fit.

CR

[MIJB#19]

"Why fly? When you can walk on water."
The translation is sitting at the top of the screen. :)

That t-shirt is not exactly my kind of humor, but still a nice compliment for Bergkamp. In a way...

Daedalus, I read about Owusu and Van Persie playing well, but since it's just the League Cup, it's not interesting at all. ;)

[daedalus]

Bummer about the Boro, although drawing Pool at this point was disappointing and unlucky. I would have hoped we would have lasted longer int he tourney we won last year.

But then we did paste Lazio in European action last week, and we're doign quite well considering most of our first eleven is rather far short of fit.They seem to constantly be knocking on the door without coming through. Hopefully, that changes soon. More competition makes it more interesting.That t-shirt is not exactly my kind of humor, but still a nice compliment for Bergkamp. In a way...Sorry about that. I found it fairly amusing. Hope it didn't offend you. :)Daedalus, I read about Owusu and Van Persie playing well, but since it's just the League Cup, it's not interesting at all. ;)Hee hee. I'll take any and all positive news at the moment.

Plus, many of the people who have been watching early action have rated Van Persie a left-footed Bergkamp and that excites me since Dennis is no longer a 90-minutes, 40-games guy anymore so having Van Persie taking up the other half of his minutes would be awesome. (Seems like Reyes is more effective on the left wing.) The offense still seems at its best with Dennis up front and Cesc in the middle.

I haven't had a chance to watch Owusu-Abeyie yet but descriptions of him so far makes me think of a faster Kanu (playmaking forward with lots of flair), which seems exciting to me and would be a great alternative up front.

[Crapshoot]

Arsenal really are amazing- what a youth team. Lupoli, Owusu-Abeyie alone are stars in the making - along with Senderoos...

[MIJB#19]

Sorry about that. I found it fairly amusing. Hope it didn't offend you. :)Hee hee. I'll take any and all positive news at the moment.No offense taken. It's Bergkamp who's afraid to fly, not me. :)

Plus, many of the people who have been watching early action have rated Van Persie a left-footed Bergkamp and that excites me since Dennis is no longer a 90-minutes, 40-games guy anymore so having Van Persie taking up the other half of his minutes would be awesome. (Seems like Reyes is more effective on the left wing.) The offense still seems at its best with Dennis up front and Cesc in the middle.

I haven't had a chance to watch Owusu-Abeyie yet but descriptions of him so far makes me think of a faster Kanu (playmaking forward with lots of flair), which seems exciting to me and would be a great alternative up front.I know nothing about Owusu-Abeyie other than that he played for the Ajax reserves, so I won't comment on that player.
It's good to hear about Van Persie doing so well. He's had a bad reputation overhere, but from my via-via sources I figured out it's been Van Persie's dream to play for Arsenal, he's not going to waste that opportunity. And if he's indeed going to succeed at Bergkamp's position, Van Persie would play his favorites role at his favorite club. Good for him!

And for me, I have lined up Van Persie in my fantasy EPL team from the season's start, just like Arjan Robben, who's doingwhat he used to do and is all of a sudden concidered a star (hello experts, did you not watch PSV in the CL in 2003/04 or the Euro2004 tournament?).

[Mac Howard]

Can't say I'm sorry you guys didn't get Brown Chief Rum but, had he joined you, one CB injury and we'd have been playing Alan Smith alongside Ferdinand/Silvestre :rolleyes:

[Crapshoot]

Can't say I'm sorry you guys didn't get Brown Chief Rum but, had he joined you, one CB injury and we'd have been playing Alan Smith alongside Ferdinand/Silvestre :rolleyes:

na- you would have moved Gary Neville over, and put his brother in at right back. Plus, you have Spector, and Keane's shown an ability to play reasonably out of the back.

[Chief Rum]

Can't say I'm sorry you guys didn't get Brown Chief Rum but, had he joined you, one CB injury and we'd have been playing Alan Smith alongside Ferdinand/Silvestre :rolleyes:

There's still the midseason window. ;)

Seriously, though, I am beginning to wonder if maybe we should just let all of our Youth Cup winners come up, because every one we add to the first team seems to do well. Downing (of course, getting talk for England!), Parnaby, McMahon (what a surprise he has been replacing Reizeger) and Morrison (will now play more with Mendieta done for the season). We haven't even got Christie back up to full fitness for the top squad yet, and he has always been thought to have the highest upside of all those guys (with the exception of maybe Downing). And Riggott, a kid who was already up, has been very solid replacing Ugo.

Indientally, I think it would be hilarious to see Smith on the backline. :)

CR

[Crapshoot]

Meh- I think Christie is likely to settle into blissfull mediocrity -and not much more. I think Boro has talent, but has to balance it against their usual urge to go pay 3 times as much for some overhyped hack- or as I call today- the Man City syndrome. McMahon impressed me in the one game I saw him in, and Downing has been good whenever I catch Boro on FSW. It will be interesting to see what happens with Zenden- since the former and latter are left sided wingers- I dont think dropping Zenden to left back often is a recipie for defensive solidarity...:D

[Chief Rum]

Heck no. :)

Zenden has been playing some in the middle, and so has Downing. They could both do that more now with Mendieta hurt. Downing also played on the right last week against Bolton, but it seemed clear he was better on the left (switched in the middle of the match, and it was like turning on a switch).

I agree about Christie, actually--he has never really impressed me in the time or two I have seen him (although admittedly I haven't seen him at all on the pitch for over a year because of his injury). But I am just a Yank watching from afar; what do I know? You're the first guy I have read about him agreeing with my own private asessment. :)

I kinda know what you're talking about with the Man City style thing, given that these guys they are bringing in were considered largely surplus to requirement at bigger clubs. Like getting by with hand-me-downs (Parlour, Zenden, Reiziger, JFH) that weren't quite first team regulars with their old clubs.

That said, the only guy we paid for is Viduka, and I think everyone agrees he has talent (whether he pulls his head out of his arse and actually plays to it is another matter). The rest we all signed on frees. I think JFH has certainly justified his contract so far, and Parlour could be key with Mendieta hurt. Zenden is a guy who just needs regular consistent time, too, I think.

Mind you I am not saying we're top of the table or nothing crazy. :) Just saying I think there is less illusion to this club than you implied with your Man City reference.

If your reference is to some questionable buys like Maccarone and Greening, well, agreed there. :)

I think McLaren is one of the best managers out there, though. He's really showing his quality with what he has done at a little town like Middlesbrough. I'm glad he stayed away from Toon. Not only are they a rival, but he said he had unfinished business with the Boro. I like to hear that.

CR

[Desnudo]

Everton four points back from 1st place. Unbelievable. I think this is a clear case of the Ewing Effect.

[Mac Howard]

What Moyes and McLaren are doing is music to my ears. For years I've heard people who insist that the manager doesn't have too significant an influence on team performance - and then guys like this come along to confound them :)

[daedalus]

I know nothing about any other team but . . . WOW, do we suck right about now.

I mean, yeah, that's a fairly relative consideration but, for a team that fancies itself league and European contender, we really, really suck. It's not so much the losses, draws or 4 goals surrendered to Tottenham. It's the how. When Chelsea blew the lead and ended up with a draw, I was completely surprised and thought about what a heck of an accomplishment by Bolton to grab a point. And, in no way, shape or form meant as a disrespect or to deny due credit to Crystal Palace or West Bromwich but, with Arsenal, it just feels like "here we go again." Someone making a great play, I can live with (unrelated, apparently Nolbert Solano had a great goal recently that I have not seen, anyone seen it?). Contenders do not give up points by surrendering weak goals. I mean, yes, it's possible. Hell, as good a defense and team as Chelsea has, they did it. But, with them, it feels like an exception. Bah.

If nothing else, though, I guess people are finally actually noticing (the absence of) Gilberto. Without Campbell back there to direct traffic and control the air space, his absence has become greatly noticable.

[MIJB#19]

Arsenal have lost the feeling of 'we are untouchable'. I've seen it happen to the mid 90's Ajax, after their first loss in about 50 games in the league, they started to struggle and the downfall became unstoppable. Of course, the Ajax team fell apart after that with guys going to Milan AC, Barcelona and where not more, while with Arsenal that's not likely to happen.

Still, you got to be prepared for seeing a longer series of disappointing results. Although, playing PSV tomorrow could be the excellent way to get the move back on, yet with PSV's recent form, it wouldn't be too surprising of the streak of disappointing results continues. Since the 1-0 loss at Arsenal in mid-September, PSV has won 11 of 12 games (the non-win a 0-0 draw at FC Utrecht:D) and by allowing just 1 goal (at Rosenborg BK).