Chargers' talks with Rivers have broken down

[KWhit]

<TABLE class=bdy cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=770 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>Chargers' talks with Rivers have broken down

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=bdy cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=770 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD height=5></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=bdy cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=770 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=5></TD><TD width=450><!-- search:</noindex> --><!-- esi: /nugget/4000_2650862-->San Diego Chargers general manager A.J. Smith said today that talks with former N.C. State quarterback and No. 4 overall draft pick Philip Rivers have completely broken down and the Chargers have "pulled their offer off the table." <!-- esi: /widget/story/videoAndPhotoGallery?contentId=2650862-->



Smith said the team offered him a deal that exceeded No. 2 overall pick Robert Gallery's numbers with the Raiders and insisted the team would not pay him according to Eli Manning's deal with the Giants. Smith said he had told Rivers and his agent Jimmy Sexton that they had until 5 p.m. last Sunday to accept the offer or it would be pulled. The pair rejected the deal. Now Smith says talks are dead. He also added that had Rivers and Sexton not accepted the original deal, all future deals would decrease in value.




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[Fritz]

ryan leaf could help get rivers a job on a coaching staff

[rkmsuf]

What a joke organization. Eli got this one right.

[RainRaven]

The Chargers keep playing games with their draft picks year after year with these holdouts. No wonder they keep being at the bottom of the barrel.

[Cuckoo]

Obviously, I don't know the numbers, but if Phillip Rivers is wanting a deal along the lines of Eli Manning's, I think he's reaching a little bit. Now, pulling back an offer and saying that any subsequent offers will decrease in value is an idiotic thing to do.

[SunDancer]

What a joke organization. Eli got this one right.

Eli? I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on the Chargers. They are offering him a deal that pays him MORE then the second pick, when he was a fourth overall pick? Not sure who is the joke.

[rkmsuf]

Eli? I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on the Chargers. They are offering him a deal that pays him MORE then the second pick, when he was a fourth overall pick? Not sure who is the joke.

It's the overall history here. Spanos has to show the rookies who is boss.

Maybe Rivers is shooting for the moon but to break off talks and throw around the decreasing offer stuff is ridiculous. Rivers is supposed to be the man for them and lead them back to winning. This really gets things off to a smashing start.

[General Mike]

Eli? I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on the Chargers. They are offering him a deal that pays him MORE then the second pick, when he was a fourth overall pick? Not sure who is the joke.

The Giants are. They traded all their draft picks when they didn't have to. Way to go Ernie Accorsi ;)

[RainRaven]

SunDancer, remember that the Chargers have more rookie cap room then the Gaints did for the Eli deal since the chargers did have the first pick in the draft. Rivers wants to be payed like the number 1 pick and while I may not agree with him on that point the QB position is a premium position and the Chargers should cough up the money and stop being idiots for once.

[Huckleberry]

He's a quarterback. Gallery is an OT. I'm pretty sure that precedent dictates he makes more than Gallery, even as a #4 versus a #2. Can anyone verify/disprove?

The Chargers are notorious for this, though. With Quentin Jammer they offered him a contract worth less than the guy drafted after him after almost everyone else had signed.

[Troll]

The NFL needs to make guaranteed rookie contracts like the NBA. That way everyone is in for camp and we don't have all this bitching about rookies wanting to be the highest paid player in the history of their position, oh, wait, even that isn't enough sometimes. Give me a break, I do not feel bad for any of these rookies that want bigger contracts, hell, if I was the Chargers GM or owner I would let him hold out all year and re enter the draft next year.

[RainRaven]

Troll because the NFL doesn't have guaranteed contracts means they need as big as a signing bonus as possible because they can be released anytime, and while I would love to be fighting over the money we laugh at as too much anyways it's not our body on the lines every week eithier. It's not like the Owner is really scrambling financially to pay the extra X amount they want.

[rkmsuf]

The NFL needs to make guaranteed rookie contracts like the NBA. That way everyone is in for camp and we don't have all this bitching about rookies wanting to be the highest paid player in the history of their position, oh, wait, even that isn't enough sometimes. Give me a break, I do not feel bad for any of these rookies that want bigger contracts, hell, if I was the Chargers GM or owner I would let him hold out all year and re enter the draft next year.

This is one of the only times the player has the hammer in the NFL. After they sign the power shifts mostly to the owner's side because of non-guaranted deals.

[Cuckoo]

I agree with you RainRaven that QBs should be paid higher than other positions even if they were a few picks behind, but I don't agree with you that the rookie cap room should dictate his value. In my opinion, and that of a number of NFL scouts, Rivers is a degree behind Manning in talent, and I think that he's reaching if he thinks he deserves the same money as Manning.

[rkmsuf]

They are already more or less slotted and Rivers could make a case that he should be in the Manning ballpark.

[Grid Iron]

Apparently, Rivers' agent agreed to drop their demand, asking for less than Manning. However, they want to be paid at least equal to Larry Fitzgerald.

[RainRaven]

Rivers can make the case that he is the number one pick due to the trade with the Giants. I may not agree with him but it isn't that cut and dry plus the "talent" difference between Rivers and Manning is negible. The main reason why Manning is the scouts choice is because of his name and less so of talent gap between the two.

[Easy Mac]

He's a quarterback. Gallery is an OT. I'm pretty sure that precedent dictates he makes more than Gallery, even as a #4 versus a #2. Can anyone verify/disprove?

The Chargers are notorious for this, though. With Quentin Jammer they offered him a contract worth less than the guy drafted after him after almost everyone else had signed.
I think that Charles Rogers got more money than Carson Palmer last year, even though he was drafted below him. So QB's aren't always the highest paid.

[WSUCougar]

Rivers can make the case that he is the number one pick due to the trade with the Giants.
I'm not busting on you RainRaven, but just how can he make that case?

[Troll]

This is one of the only times the player has the hammer in the NFL. After they sign the power shifts mostly to the owner's side because of non-guaranted deals.

Thats the whole point of my argument. Give them mandatory GUARANTED deals, anyway, guaranted or not they are still asking for way too much. They are unproven. Let them play 3-5 years and then ask for that kind of money.

[rkmsuf]

Thats the whole point of my argument. Give them mandatory GUARANTED deals, anyway, guaranted or not they are still asking for way too much. They are unproven. Let them play 3-5 years and then ask for that kind of money.

They essentially have guaranteed deals now with the signing bonus.

[RainRaven]

No problem Cougar I should've explained further so my reasoning could be exploited by the board :) Yea, the Chargers "picked" Eli first but they sure as hell were't gonna keep him and was trade bait the whole time. The Giants picked the player the Chargers wanted which was Rivers, trade, bing bam boom current sitution ensues. Rivers was the choice of the Chargers due to the trade, and hence should be prepared to pay a high price for him. Now should it be exactly #1 price for him I don't know, but Rivers can make the case through his agents for exactly that. Is it the strongest argument probably not but then again I am not trying to get him payed more unless he calls my ass with money on the table :) He is worth more then Gallery, Fitzgerald and should be in the Eli range for funds due the position. Commence ripping ;)

[Travis]

The only problem with that reasoning, and what the Chargers could easily use against that, is that it wasn't a trade of Eli for Rivers straight up.

[Huckleberry]

Was Rivers traded straight up for Manning? Not even close.

Rivers' value, if he chooses to use the draft day hysteria that brought him to San Diego, would be Eli Manning's contract minus 3rd round pick Nick Hardwick's contract minus the estimated value of a first round pick in next year's draft's contract minus the estimated value of a fifth round pick in next year's draft's contract.

[Cringer]

For some reason reading through this thread has given me the urge to play FOF.....

[cthomer5000]

Flutie time.

[Antmeister]

Great. This really sucks. It seems that ever since the Ryan Leaf deal blew up in their face, they have been afraid to sign a player for what he is worth. I think the attitude has to do more with the GM than anything else. He has given my team a lot of headaches when it comes to dealing with contracts. Instead of further negotiating some type of deal, he goes for an ultimatum ploy which really ticks me off. Being a long time Chargers fan, I was happy that they didn't get Eli Manning, but to know treat their QB like this is disappointing.

[RainRaven]

I didn't say it was a great one guys, just that it was one that "could" be made. I think he deserves a contract a smigden below Eli, but things never seem to be that simple in the NFL. Now if we want to complain about contracts let's get on the Pistons about Winslow's potential payday again!

[Ksyrup]

Was Rivers traded straight up for Manning? Not even close.

Rivers' value, if he chooses to use the draft day hysteria that brought him to San Diego, would be Eli Manning's contract minus 3rd round pick Nick Hardwick's contract minus the estimated value of a first round pick in next year's draft's contract minus the estimated value of a fifth round pick in next year's draft's contract.One could easily make the argument that what the Giants were willing to part with for Eli Manning does not set Rivers' value. The Chargers could have taken Rivers first if he was the guy they wanted all along, and there would be no argument about Rivers' value. However, they took Manning knowing they could extract value from the Giants, as their intelligence indicated that Manning was the QB NY really wanted.

What they were able to fleece NY for should not play a part in determining Rivers' contractual value - that's just a good job by SD's front office in recognizing the situation and taking full advantage of it.

[sterlingice]

Was Rivers traded straight up for Manning? Not even close.

Rivers' value, if he chooses to use the draft day hysteria that brought him to San Diego, would be Eli Manning's contract minus 3rd round pick Nick Hardwick's contract minus the estimated value of a first round pick in next year's draft's contract minus the estimated value of a fifth round pick in next year's draft's contract.
2/3rds, right?

SI

[Huckleberry]

Ksyrup -

I was posting that as a devil's advocate response to the claim that Rivers should expect Manning money. It would clearly be a logical rebuttal by the Chargers' front office to that demand. They will eventually have to pay all of those contracts instead of just Manning's.

Clearly the reality should be somewhere in the middle. About 2/3 from one end to the other. It's up to them to decide which end is which.

[condors]

whenever a team 1st round pick isn't signed it makes the team look bad there are only X amount of dollars to spend with the rookie cap-sign all the other guys and give what is left to your franchise QB. If it wasn't a guy that you talked about being your franchise QB all draft day long then i could take them team's side. I had to listen to all these guys in interviews tell me that Rivers was more ready and going to have a better rookie season than Eli and how the chargers were so great and moved the franchise forward blah blah blah.
Did the whole rivers/manning thing bother anyone else watching the draft? I have had my fill of hearing about these guys already even the 1983 class wasn't earth shattering as rookies.

[SunDevil]

Does anyone think that Rivers is ever going to be a good quaterback? From what I remember from the draft, he had a lot of issues with his mechanics and his timing and his arm slot. He was a pretty good college QB, got banged up a lot, but I just don't understand how you not take the money and get your butt into camp.

[Cuckoo]

I agree with you, SunDevil. From what I saw of him in college, I won't lay any money down on his professional prospects, but then again, I don't really know much. I would have bet money that Ryan Leaf would be a very good quarterback. I may be the only one who would admit that now, but I suppose it shows how good my judgment is. :)

[Noop]

I am far from a Rivers fan but the can play some ball. I never really thought he would be any good with that funky throwing motion of his but he sure as hell showed the ACC and the rest of the country. Does he have what it takes to be a great NFL QB? No. With alittle luck and the right system he can be decent-good in the NFL. I would have never drafted him in the first round because in college the offense was designed for him to dump it 5-7 yards and his WR made the other 10-15 making it look like it was him. Damn I don't know I am split on this....

[Wolfpack]

Does anyone think that Rivers is ever going to be a good quaterback? From what I remember from the draft, he had a lot of issues with his mechanics and his timing and his arm slot. He was a pretty good college QB, got banged up a lot, but I just don't understand how you not take the money and get your butt into camp.

Banged up? No. He has the college record for starts at 51. His backups never saw the field except in scrub time. You might be thinking of McLendon, the running back.

As for his mechanics, yes, people have derided it, but he set nearly every school and conference record with that motion. Norm Chow was his OC his freshman year and one thing I remember from an SI article about State that year was how Chow called up Mike Holmgren asking advice about the motion. Holmgren said to leave it alone if it was working.

Admittedly, he never tossed the deep ball much, but in State's offense, it wasn't necessary. What made Rivers good wasn't his motion, but his ability to lead, to read defenses, and an incredible sense of defensive pressure that allowed him to elude sacks or dump the ball off. State had a very low sacks allowed total, and a lot of that was because of Rivers.

[Fritz]

5-7 yard passes seems to win superbowls for the Pats

[sterlingice]

I agree with you, SunDevil. From what I saw of him in college, I won't lay any money down on his professional prospects, but then again, I don't really know much. I would have bet money that Ryan Leaf would be a very good quarterback. I may be the only one who would admit that now, but I suppose it shows how good my judgment is. :)
If it makes you feel any better, I would have put money on Cade McNown being a good QB.

SI

[Coffee Warlord]

If it makes you feel any better, I would have put money on Cade McNown being a good QB.

Bears picked him. That's instant bust no matter who you are.

[Ksyrup]

Philips Rivers reads defenses extremely well. Whether that will matter given the teammates around him and the offense he's used in, I don't know. All I know is, he made some tremendous reads in torching FSU last year. And that ability should translate to the NFL.

[vtbub]

Yup, some great HOF qb's out of the ACC, such as Charlie Ward and Chris Weinke.

You gotta pay the kid, but I can't believe he's better than Brees.

[Ksyrup]

Ward was never considered a legitimate pro prospect (well, CFL maybe), and Weinke was too old to really be considered one, either. Bad comparisons.

[vtbub]

Ward was never considered a legitimate pro prospect (well, CFL maybe), and Weinke was too old to really be considered one, either. Bad comparisons.


But they were the cream of the ACC crop that now has produced Rivers. They weren't great prospects, (note to self, use rolleyes for sarcasm) and if his attitude doesn't improve, then he won't either.

[Ksyrup]

They produced great numbers in college, but were never considered real NFL prospects. Rivers was a cream-of-the-crop, legit NFL prospect.

[Cuckoo]

If it makes you feel any better, I would have put money on Cade McNown being a good QB.

SI

Yep, I liked McNown as well. I wasn't ever really big on Couch, though, but I suppose he could still turn into something.

[General Mike]

Yup, some great HOF qb's out of the ACC, such as Charlie Ward and Chris Weinke.

You gotta pay the kid, but I can't believe he's better than Brees.

Don't forget Aaron Brooks and Danny Kanell :D

[Ksyrup]

Don't forget Aaron Brooks and Danny Kanell :D
Both 4th rounders. Teams didn't exactly see 1st-round potential there.

[General Mike]

Both 4th rounders. Teams didn't exactly see 1st-round potential there.Yeah, but Aaron Brooks is the best QB in the NFL who has come from an ACC school. That says it all. In the past 20 years, the best ACC QBs as pros were Boomer Esaison and Frank Reich. Don Majkowski had a few good years as well. That says even more.

[duckman]

If it makes you feel any better, I would have put money on Cade McNown being a good QB.

SI
I was never sold on him because of his lack of accuracy in college.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, but Aaron Brooks is the best QB in the NFL who has come from an ACC school. That says it all. In the past 20 years, the best ACC QBs as pros were Boomer Esaison and Frank Reich. Don Majkowski had a few good years as well. That says even more.
Well, you proved my point then. Philip Rivers is the first legit 1st rounder to come out of that conference, so one would expect him to be better than any of the others you mentioned.

If your point is that just because he comes from a certain conference, he must suck, that's pretty ridiculous. The general consensus is that he was a top 3 QB in the draft this year. None of the others can make that claim, so I don't see the use in comparing them simply because they came from the same conference.

[Samdari]

Eli? I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on the Chargers. They are offering him a deal that pays him MORE then the second pick, when he was a fourth overall pick? Not sure who is the joke.

Be careful of statements from the Chargers. The "more than the second pick" money is hugely incentive based - it is like Ricky Williams' first contract. In order to get the full value of that contract, Rivers would have to attain performance levels "never before achieved by an NFL QB."

To note, that perspective is provided by Rivers' agent. The truth is likely somewhere in between.

[gstelmack]

Admittedly, he never tossed the deep ball much, but in State's offense, it wasn't necessary. What made Rivers good wasn't his motion, but his ability to lead, to read defenses, and an incredible sense of defensive pressure that allowed him to elude sacks or dump the ball off. State had a very low sacks allowed total, and a lot of that was because of Rivers.
Yes, these are the keys to Phillip Rivers. He may not have the prettiest motion, and he may not be the fastest guy, but he's a leader and has a ton of football smarts. He's played very well no matter what the opposition, including the Ohio State game last year where the team got a standing O from the crowd for their effort with McLendon playing hardly at all (i.e. hardly any running game to speak of).

Sure, college success is no guarantee of NFL success, especially when you go to a team with no receivers and a porous offensive line, but Rivers is the type of guy I'd want to have leading my team.

[Samdari]

Update - One of the incentives that the Chargers are counting towards the total dollar value they are announcing they have offered him is $5 million for winning four Super Bowls.