HT-Bjorn on the supporter mood / crowd issue

[Alf]

<TABLE class=box0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4><TBODY><TR class=head><TD>By: HT-Bjorn (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=68) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=HT-Bjorn&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=68)
To: sirfire (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=39920) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=sirfire&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=39920) </TD><TD align=right>1636437.25 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=25) as reply to 1636437.20 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=20)
20-08-2004 at 15:57 </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR>no answer on where HT stand other than the "formula" for calculating crowds to games has not changed. <HR>

If that's the case, how could we answer differently? We can't should say A when it is B, just for the sake of populism, to appease those who say "It is not A, it is B".

It has not changed.

Also, these threads tend to mix a whole bunch of completely different things.

I'll here just comment the complaining about losing supporters, which is what this thread was orinigally about, until it was hijacked by users who prefer spreading sarcasms about "intelligent fans" (taking things badly out of context while so doing) and complain about their spectator outcome in general

Losing supporters: The complaints tend to be founded in a complete lack of understanding how the fanclub size relates to what league level you are in. Many people think that just because it worked fine to pile up fanclub members early in their HT career, then it will remain linear like that forever. However, as I've repeatedly tried to get the message through: the size of your fanclub is strongly related to what level you are in.

There is a "balance size" for each division level. If you're doing OK, then you will reach this level and neither lose nor gain supporters a typical week. However, it is possible to be doing "above average" for a while (including using press spokesmen and similar means to boost fans mood). If you manage to maintain this "enhanced" situation for some time, your fanclub size will grow beyond the balance level.

But when your team then screw things up (lose in the cup against a worse team, for instance, or lose 5-0 in an important series match), then so much worse the fall is: You fall from an enhanced state.

Here's an example (hypothetical, and with dummy values NOT taken from the actual formula): Let's say a certain division has a balance level of 2000 fans. your team has 1900. For some time your team starts doing well and the fans stay happy. You will reach 2000 at an "accelerated speed" because you are currently below the balance level. However, the further beyond 2000 you go, the harder each new recruitment gets. And when finally, bad luck strikes and things start going wrong with the team, you will lose quite a lot, say lose 100 withing a few weeks, going from the exhanced level of 2200 to 2100.

Does this mean that it is meaningless to gain fans? No. If you stay at 2200 for some time, you will still have had 10% more income (although for a limited time) from the things depending on fanclub than you would have had otherwise. Just because it doesn't last forever, you'll still have gained more money than if you had stayed at 2000 all the time.

So, there are a few things to note: The 10% fanclub gain when you go up to higher division is not the big advantage of promoting. The big advantage is that you'll have a higher balance level. In fact, the 10% you gain may (or may not) bring you above the balance level of the new division. This is what some users have experienced as a drop of fanclub size early in the new season after promoting.

Why do we have a balance level? For starters, this rewards promotion somewhat. It is also an element of realism (yeah-yeah... I know, we have limited the realism on the whole on the matter of spectator sizes, but let's not take up that discussion here, I've answered that elsewhere).

Furthermore, it prevents the early starters from benefiting eternally from "a head start". I mean like this: If supporter gain had been linear, so you keep gaining fans as long as you win, then we could easily have had a situation where the oldest teams had fanclubs of 20.000 rather than 2000 members. So there has to be a limitation, although, we ALWAYS shun strict limits, we've made the limit "soft" (so you can cross it, but only temporary).

Over and out, <!--Signature-->
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[Alf]

<TABLE class=box0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4><TBODY><TR class=head><TD>By: HT-Bjorn (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=68) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=HT-Bjorn&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=68)
To: Bayernstark (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=248497) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=Bayernstark&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=248497) </TD><TD align=right>1636437.39 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=39) as reply to 1636437.30 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=30)
20-08-2004 at 16:46 </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR>on average with the new fans it´s harder to maintain a reasonable fan mood level than before. <HR>

That could be true.

However, if it is so, then it is "just the way it is. Learn to live with it". While such a situation would mean slightly lower spectator income on average, just claiming that clubs in general are having trouble with the cash flow means forgetting that the HT 6.6 package meant several other measures, including a general salary reduction that (more than) compensate for any spectator income loss (even if there is one, which I have not hereby confirmed... ;)

Generally, the global economy of the clubs is in "reasonably good" shape. Had it not been, we would have taken measures in mid-season, as we warned we might upon releasing HT 6.6. Next window for economy fine tuning is now next season end. We might, or might not, take measures to tweak the economy slightly to keep it on-course. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Alf]

<TABLE class=box0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4><TBODY><TR class=head><TD>By: HT-Bjorn (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=68) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=HT-Bjorn&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=68)
To: sirfire (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=39920) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=sirfire&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=39920) </TD><TD align=right>1636437.48 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=48) as reply to 1636437.43 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=43)
20-08-2004 at 17:13 </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR>things are on shaky grounds? <HR>

Things are not on shaky grounds. I'm not talking of any revolutions here, just some fine tuning, calibrating and adjusting economuic parameters a few percent in one direction or another if needed. I repeat: If needed. If.

Making long term plans includes the challenge of making room for the uncertain factors and elements of surprise. The real world is that way, so is HT.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[bronconick]

Hmmm.

"just claiming that clubs in general are having trouble with the cash flow means forgetting that the HT 6.6 package meant several other measures, including a general salary reduction that (more than) compensate for any spectator income loss (even if there is one, which I have not hereby confirmed.."

Uh, no. Maybe for ML and II teams, the salary reduction balances out the spectator income loss. Not down here in the slums of V, though. Going from 30k a week to 28k a week in wages doesn't balance out my half-empty stadium.

All of this tells me one thing. Nothing's changing. I'd advise anyone else that's promoting and will have difficulty winning games next year (like me) to have a slush fund sitting there to cover the weeks where your attendance fails to break you even.

[Masked]

All of this tells me one thing. Nothing's changing. I'd advise anyone else that's promoting and will have difficulty winning games next year (like me) to have a slush fund sitting there to cover the weeks where your attendance fails to break you even.
I promoted this season to division III and am in 7th place after 8 weeks. My largest crowd was in week 1 and I have not been above 35K since. I also had no home cup games. Despite all that, I easily make a profit in a two week period, and saved up enough money that came only from the crowd to buy an outstanding defender. As everyone probably knows, my youth pulls certainly have not contributed.

Unless your wages are very high or you have a grossly overbuilt stadium, I don't imagine any division 3-5 team is going to have a hard time breaking even next season.

[Havok]

<TABLE class=box0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4><TBODY><TR class=head><TD>By: HT-Bjorn (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=68) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=HT-Bjorn&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=68)
To: Bayernstark (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=248497) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=Bayernstark&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www15.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=248497) </TD><TD align=right>1636437.39 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=39) as reply to 1636437.30 (http://www15.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=30)
20-08-2004 at 16:46 </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR>on average with the new fans it´s harder to maintain a reasonable fan mood level than before. <HR>

That could be true.

However, if it is so, then it is "just the way it is. Learn to live with it". While such a situation would mean slightly lower spectator income on average, just claiming that clubs in general are having trouble with the cash flow means forgetting that the HT 6.6 package meant several other measures, including a general salary reduction that (more than) compensate for any spectator income loss (even if there is one, which I have not hereby confirmed... ;)

Generally, the global economy of the clubs is in "reasonably good" shape. Had it not been, we would have taken measures in mid-season, as we warned we might upon releasing HT 6.6. Next window for economy fine tuning is now next season end. We might, or might not, take measures to tweak the economy slightly to keep it on-course. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


how could a smart guy like Bjorn be so blind....slightly lower income??? hell i've EASILY lost 300-400k this season. Thats a hell of alot of money for me, its serverly screwed up my plans for the season and now im selling guys that i didn't want to just to make up for it.

I just read a stat in sweden that said crowd turnout in sweden for week 8 was 22% lower then last season. 22% of my my income from 1 home game is around 70k. (not that i should sell out every home game mind you). Anyway, its pretty sad how blind these guy are, if ya wanna lower HT's economy then do it, but making your opponents fan mood almost as important as yours for drawing fans to your home game makes absolutly no sense at all. This has got to be the dumest thing i've ever seen the Devs of HT do IMO.

[FrogMan]

I promoted this season to division III and am in 7th place after 8 weeks. My largest crowd was in week 1 and I have not been above 35K since. I also had no home cup games. Despite all that, I easily make a profit in a two week period, and saved up enough money that came only from the crowd to buy an outstanding defender. As everyone probably knows, my youth pulls certainly have not contributed.

Unless your wages are very high or you have a grossly overbuilt stadium, I don't imagine any division 3-5 team is going to have a hard time breaking even next season.
Agreed. I'm in a similar situation as Masked and I make a profit over two weeks all the time, despite getting some very crappy crowd. I think that the teams having a harder time are the teams that have been playing a bit longer than us, with big salaried team in div III or II. I read about JimBob16, a Canadian manager, former national team manager, who said he was thinking about dropping his team and starting over, since he can't compete with 350k U$ in salaries every week. He got delegated to div III last season and was expected to promote right back up, but some bad luck and a loss or two because of that, and he's now nor that sure of that. My thoughts when I read his comments were: "Dear God!!! 350k in salaries!!!" then I went to check on his ratings and he's getting his best ratings around 240 or so, but was getting a lot of 210 or about, which is only 25 points better than my tiny squad with a total team salary of just under 45k U$ :eek: That is a 300k a week differential!!!

I've said it a few times, it's not really the fact that they changed something in the crowd/supporter mood/fanclub engine that bothered, it's more that we didn't get too much of an headsup about it...

FM

[portnoise]

I really like this concept.

It does widen the gap between levels--it's harder to "get fat" and get fully prepared for a higher level by sticking around in a lower one, and if you want HT to be a meritocracy where older players are easily unseated from top leagues by newer, more talented/dedicated owners, that sucks, but it's also realistic. Top-league teams make top dollar, regardless of ownership (cf. Harold Ballard).

Not only is it realistic; it's also competitive. It rewards teams who win/promote and teams who manage players with economic efficiency, rather than owners who hang around in lower levels forever, accumulating supporters and money (but who ultimately can't support the all-star teams they assemble this way).

So owners like Jimbob16 have to either promote or downsize. I say, that's both realistic and fun.

[Havok]

I really like this concept.

It does widen the gap between levels--it's harder to "get fat" and get fully prepared for a higher level by sticking around in a lower one, and if you want HT to be a meritocracy where older players are easily unseated from top leagues by newer, more talented/dedicated owners, that sucks, but it's also realistic. Top-league teams make top dollar, regardless of ownership (cf. Harold Ballard).

Not only is it realistic; it's also competitive. It rewards teams who win/promote and teams who manage players with economic efficiency, rather than owners who hang around in lower levels forever, accumulating supporters and money (but who ultimately can't support the all-star teams they assemble this way).

So owners like Jimbob16 have to either promote or downsize. I say, that's both realistic and fun.


yeah... very realistic that 70k fans didn't show up to the Wizards vs. TT (the 2 best teams in the USA) game because The wizards lost they're cup game.

If you like this new system thats fine.... your one of the few. But please don't describe it as 'Realistic", nothing could be farther from the truth.

[damnMikeBrown]

It seems like HT-Bjorn is missing it...he's just not getting what the fuss is all about. He focuss so much of his argument on the largely undebated soft-cap for supporters at a given level. Last time I checked, nobody had an issue with that.

Then he issues a "deal with it, it's nothing" sort of blanket statement over the rest of the problems, but doesn't really dig into them. Something HAS changed. Something ISN'T working, and it's not a vocal minority speaking up, it's a whole lot more than that now.

[TargetPractice6]

"a general salary reduction that (more than) compensate for any spectator income loss"

HAH! Hardly! I've lost well over $1 million this season in lost crowd income and received no break on my salaries. There is absolutely NO reason I should get 23k and 22k attendances because I lost my cup game. I've only had seven lower league attendances. Two were against walkover teams in seasons 16 and 17. The other two were when I was in IV and didn't even have a stadium that held more than 20k.

[Havok]

and now they are just closing every thread that talks about it.... i love HT man and i've always had much respect for the devs.

But this is bullshit...

[mckerney]

and now they are just closing every thread that talks about it.... i love HT man and i've always had much respect for the devs.

But this is bullshit...

Agreed. The attendance I had last week was just ridiculous.

Since losing in the cup, I've had 3 of 4 matches at home, and haven't lost since the cup match. The first match I drew 24,902 as the #7 team in my series against the #1, and then as the #6 against the #7 team I drew 32,807. I played on the road, then in the rematch of that team, riding a 4 game winning streak as the #5 team with supporters high on life, playing the #8, I drew only 15,939.

For them to say nothing has changed in the area of how attendance is determined is indeed bullshit, and I don't see how his explaination of the size of supporter clubs has anything to do with it, as I've been steadily increasing at about 16 a week.

[Alf]

<TABLE class=box0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4><TBODY><TR class=head><TD>By: HT-Bjorn (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=68) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=HT-Bjorn&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=68)
To: streacer (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=54363) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=streacer&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=54363) </TD><TD align=right>1636437.100 (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=100) as reply to 1636437.97 (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=97)
21-08-2004 at 00:05 </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR>Would it be possible for fans to distinguish between league and cup games? <HR>

What you are suggesting is that since people are using a non-perfect strategy (ignoring the cup), we should adopt the system to be perfect for that strategy. We won't do that. If people want to ignore the cup to get one advantage - fair enough, do so, but don't complain about the prize you have to play (angry fans) for it.

The fans want you to take all important matches seriously. The cup is very important to them. Like it or not, but that is the way the spectators of the HT universe thinks about things. Them fans are stubborn crazy little fools, but hey - that's why they fork out the fee to the entrance tickets each week (except when they are too angry with you failing them). When it comes to stubbornness of your fans, you have to take the bad with the good.

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[Alf]

<TABLE class=box0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4><TBODY><TR class=head><TD>By: HT-Bjorn (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=68) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=HT-Bjorn&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=68)
To: sirfire (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=39920) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=sirfire&showMenu=iSupporter) http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=39920) </TD><TD align=right>1636437.129 (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=129) as reply to 1636437.111 (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=111)
21-08-2004 at 08:06 </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR>So, we've limited the effect that the difference in division level in how supporters view a cup match.</B> <HR>

This is clearly not the case, </I><HR>

Oh, yes it is the case. That one is very simple maths, formulawise, and I am 100% sure we've got it right. The effect is less than previously.
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[Demtras]

Them fans are stubborn crazy little fools,

heh just picturing Mr. T sorry

[TargetPractice6]

Because it's completely realistic to expect tow in the cup every season and therefore fans should get pissed when you don't. Right Bjorn, good thinking.

[kingfc22]

They just keep digging and digging a bigger hole for themselves.

[portnoise]

If you like this new system thats fine.... your one of the few. But please don't describe it as 'Realistic", nothing could be farther from the truth.

Ok... I see that fans are too fickle, particularly when it comes to cup losses. It almost makes me wish for a CM-style "expectation" system in which fans make a "wish" statement through the media at the beginning of the season (as to league and cup results) which their disappointment/excitement is tied to. Fans should defect if a team goes down in a big cupset, but not, as TP says, *whenever* a team drops out of the cup, even if they've exceeded expectations.

[Maltby]

Well it's unrealistic that it negatively affects every team not on the top level, and in return seems to inadvertently punish the lower division teams. My fans can't seriously expect me or any other Division 5 USA team to seriously compete for the Cup in any season. It'd be a great cinderella story but highly unlikely. So by saying that my fans aren't attending games because I'm not in the cup anymore is a paper thin excuse to try and cover a hemmoraging problem in the game. I don't think I should be at full capacity every match, however I think any team playing at home against a top team in their group would pull a full house, regardless of how they played in the cup.

[The Un-Ghosted Chubby]

I'm so glad I got cupset in the 1st round this year, my crowds have been going up with my last game that wasn't against the celler dweller being a new attendence record and I should sell out my next 2 home games (against #1 and #2 in the league) for my 1st 2 sellouts ever :)

[rickJ]

That's unless you or them gets blown out the match prior. I don't really have a problem with lots of supporters after a crappy cup loss since that's a one time event, however, the huge effect on crowd moods on the next match's attendance for a single loss or opponent's single loss still feels too big.

Feels so wrong how I'm rooting for my next opponent before every home match.

[Mr. Wednesday]

<TABLE class=box0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4><TBODY><TR class=head><TD>By: HT-Bjorn (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=68)http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=HT-Bjorn&showMenu=iSupporter)http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=68)

To: sirfire (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=teamDetails.asp&UserID=39920)http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/star_GreenBG.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/default.asp?showpage=aboutsupporter.asp&UserName=sirfire&showMenu=iSupporter)http://www7.hattrick.org/common/images/bookmark_10x17.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?action=addbookmark&userid=39920)
</TD><TD align=right>1636437.129 (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=129) as reply to 1636437.111 (http://www7.hattrick.org/common/cn.asp?a=v&t=1636437&n=111)

21-08-2004 at 08:06
</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR>So, we've limited the effect that the difference in division level in how supporters view a cup match.</B> <HR>


This is clearly not the case, </I><HR>


Oh, yes it is the case. That one is very simple maths, formulawise, and I am 100% sure we've got it right. The effect is less than previously.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Yeesh, where did they get the idea that this was a change that needed to be made? I thought they had pushed it the other way previously because people didn't like having their supporters get angry over losing to a much better team?

There's a basic problem in HT with supporter expectations when you go against a better team. Unless you have a very carefully crafted team (which will tend to be suboptimal in other situations), it's very difficult to pull an upset against a team that posts significantly better ratings than your own.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, reading the thread in question, I wonder if in the course of "fixing" fan mood for higher level teams that lose (and if they fixed it, why were my fans so pissed off when I got WTFed out of the cup against a lower-division side) they also screwed it up for lower-level teams crashing out when their number is up?