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hoopsguy
08-22-2004, 12:48 PM
My last two tournaments (10-20 player tournaments) I have exited early with hands that were decisive favorites when I pushed all-in. If I feel that I'm one of the better players at the table, then I know that I don't want to find myself in a coin-toss with all the chips on the line early. But I'm curious about what people on this forum consider appropriate odds to want the all-in showdown early in an event. 80%? 90%? Or just avoid any kind of all-in prior to the river, where you know that a suck-out can't hurt you?

Part of the problem I've had with both tournaments has been with the blind structures, which made it challenging to aggressively play a hand without becoming pot committed very early on.

Example 1: 1000 in chips, blinds 25/50 (first hand of tournament, accelerating every 15 minutes) ten at the table, have KK as third to act. Put out a raise of 150, have a raise of 150 come back at me. Take a deep breath, decide that I'm against a decent pocket pair, ask the guy if he has cowboys while trying to get a read on him. Decide he doesn't have the aces and send the chips all-in. Could have called to see flop, I know, but I really did not think he had the aces and would have been more than happy to take the pot here if he was overplaying something like 10s. He calls, shows Qs. Buzz at table ensues, and it comes out that both a K and a Q have already been mucked. So he has one out over the remaining 46 cards. I'm a 90% favorite, and lose. $20 buy-in goes bye-bye with the quickness. Queen came on flop, no ace came on flop ... if I had bet at that pot, he would have come over top. If I check and he put a bet on me, should I have read him as hitting trips? I think it would have been very, very hard to get away from this hand even if I had just called the re-raise pre-flop.

Example 2: Fifty dollar buy-in tournament, start with fifty in chips, blinds at $1/$2 and increasing every half-hour. I've been at my table of six long enough to know that the guy to my right can play and the rest of the table is rank amateurs. I've got 40 in chips. I get dealt AJ and raise 5 one off the button. Get a call from button, everyone else folds. Flop is AK8 rainbow. I check, button bets 5, I re-raise him 8. He calls. Turn is a 4, still a rainbow. Pot is at 43 right now, I'm down to 20 in chips. I push all-in feeling that I've got the best hand and hoping I have this player dominated but also realizing that he isn't thinking pot-odds - he is playing on beginners instincts. It is an aggressive play, but this player has been really transparent with his hands and has stayed in a lot of them early helping me get a read. He calls, turns over K9. So he has five outs (was hoping he had weak ace and would only have three). Catches a K on river. I bet into the pot three times, as the favorite each time as it works out, and took a bad beat. I asked him later that night what he thought I had and he didn't believe that I had an ace.

I feel like I played tight-aggressive poker and trusted my reads - which turned out to be right in each case. Should I just chalk this up to two bad-beats and continue playing the same way or should I be less aggressive early in tournaments? Or should I save the all-in scenarios early strictly for post-river? This is what I'm leaning towards, but it also feels like I'm being a little reactive here to bad-beats where I was significantly out in front. Thoughts? Thanks in advance for the input.

The Un-Ghosted Chubby
08-22-2004, 01:06 PM
Both hands are just bad beats, they sucked out on you is all. You read the hands right in reading that you had the best hand (you did both times) Unless you have the absolute nuts there's always a chance no matter how slim that you could still lose. You lost when going allin with the best hand, I can't find any fault with that.

Suicane75
08-22-2004, 01:39 PM
I agree with Chubby, the worst thing you can do is start to 2nd guess yourself. 90% of the time you're gonna win that hand. Chalk it up to bad luck and get back on the horse. As far as tournaments go, I tend to play low connecters alot earlier in tournaments just to see the flop, but i have to be strong not to fish. I'm willing to pay to see the flops early to try and catch a guy with something strong cause if you're shortstacked when the blinds go up it can be tough to fight back.

GoldenEagle
08-22-2004, 03:01 PM
This is the reason I lose on Party Poker. I play way too tight and when I get good hand I raise the pot. But the other people who should fold do not and I get beat off the f'ing river.

Pumpy Tudors
08-22-2004, 05:13 PM
hoopsguy, I'm far from an expert, and I'll say that the second example is just a bad beat. As for the first hand, I really don't see any reason to go all-in on the first hand of a tournament, especially pre-flop.

Ever.

With pocket kings, yes, it's obviously a very strong hand, but without seeing his previous plays (since it was the first hand) or seeing a flop, you're playing the kings blind. Maybe he's got suited hole cards and could hit a flush. Maybe he's got a chance at a straight. Maybe he's got a pocket pair and will hit his trips on the flop, in which case you'd at least be able to fold and protect some of your stack if he went over the top on you after the flop.

I can see pushing all-in later in the tournament if you're on the short stack, or even if you've got a huge chip advantage against him and you're trying to make him decide whether he wants to use the rest of his chips to ride those queens. I have never seen a good reason to go all-in on the first hand, though. Nothing personal, but that just seems like a bad play to me. You were the favorite pre-flop, of course, but you probably wouldn't have been out of the tournament so early if you'd just called his pre-flop re-raise.

korme
08-22-2004, 05:58 PM
In the tournament I played in up in Dayton ($60 buy in), the very first hand at the table, I was big blind, and I have pocket queens. I about shit. First huge tournament I've ever been in so what do I do? I bet about half of my stack, and one guy quickly called me. An ace came up on the flop, and I eventually folded my pair of queens when some guy pushed all in.. he had 2 pair, aces and somethin.. but that sucked.

kcchief19
08-22-2004, 06:38 PM
I'm an amateur myself and I'm learning from mistakes in free poker and through some software. I'm trying to discipline myself not to make the move you made in the first scenario. Heads-up, good chance. But going all-in pre-flop unless you're shortstacked is way too agreesive -- there are too many outs.

Think about it -- you raised all-in to a pre-flop re-raise. That's a risky call. I'm trying to get myself to where I won't do that without AA, and even then you run risk of losing to trip 2s to someone who knows less than you do.

Second hand was more of a bad beat. But in an effort to tighten up my play, I'm trying to avoid going all-in with nothing more than a pair. Lot of things can bet a pair, even top pair. But given that you were ahead until the river and that he continued to bet in to you with an Ace on the board, he got lucky.

Suicane75
08-22-2004, 06:44 PM
This is the reason I lose on Party Poker. I play way too tight and when I get good hand I raise the pot. But the other people who should fold do not and I get beat off the f'ing river.


Over at AP I only play the 10 cent tables and they do go in on everything, guys will raise and reraise with nothing, that's how I really learned to be strict on myself and not fish. I can sit there for an hour or so, play 5 or 6 hands that give me good odds off of the flop and watch as people with nothing call and raise all their money into my pocket. It sounds nuts, but i've learned not to be afraid of the river, a large percentage of the time the guys who fish arn't gonna get what they want, when they do it hurts alot, but ya gotta deal with it and stay in your game.

Suicane75
08-22-2004, 06:46 PM
Dola, I think it also depends on where you're at. If you're in a large Tourney with a rather small buy in ($2, $5) then going all in on KK and try to get someone to bite is probably a better bet than doing it in a regular game.

hoopsguy
08-22-2004, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the feedback up to this point. As far as the first hand goes, it was a guy I had played with in several tournaments before. Second tournament, the field made Party Poker look like pros, but the first one had some decent players (this guy being one, reasonably tight early in tournaments as a general rule).

I know that one thing I'm going to push for with tournaments I play (and certainly implement for tournaments I run) is a more manageable blind structure. The first tournament the idea is to run a number of $20 tournaments over an evening, so they are expecting to finish a 9-11 man tournament in an hour and start up the next one. That just isn't my cup of tea ... at some point hold-em starts to move towards bingo ... not a perfect analogy, but a BB that represents 5% of your starting stack inhibits the ability to play hands correctly since pot odds creep into play too quickly.

The other part I guess I'm looking for feedback on is what people think is an acceptable % to play an all-in early in a tournament? I know that I try diligently to avoid coin-toss propositions ... for example, pocket 10s against two overcards. Even though I'm a favorite in that position, I won't overplay those hands at a full table in a tournament because I don't want to end up as a 53% favorite to double-up. But 80% with an overpair? Is that more compelling? Obviously, but enough to risk the all-in early in the tournament? I'll take that every day and twice on Sunday in a cash game, but maybe I need to alter my thinking for tournament play on this front. Sure, each one ending up being a bad beat. No, I don't want to move away from trusting my reads. But should I be toning down the aggressiveness on the tight-aggressive play early in a tournament?

Suicane75
08-22-2004, 10:52 PM
Sometimes I feel like people think too hard. See the card, be the card.

The Un-Ghosted Chubby
08-23-2004, 08:50 AM
Thanks for the feedback up to this point. As far as the first hand goes, it was a guy I had played with in several tournaments before. Second tournament, the field made Party Poker look like pros, but the first one had some decent players (this guy being one, reasonably tight early in tournaments as a general rule).

I know that one thing I'm going to push for with tournaments I play (and certainly implement for tournaments I run) is a more manageable blind structure. The first tournament the idea is to run a number of $20 tournaments over an evening, so they are expecting to finish a 9-11 man tournament in an hour and start up the next one. That just isn't my cup of tea ... at some point hold-em starts to move towards bingo ... not a perfect analogy, but a BB that represents 5% of your starting stack inhibits the ability to play hands correctly since pot odds creep into play too quickly.

The other part I guess I'm looking for feedback on is what people think is an acceptable % to play an all-in early in a tournament? I know that I try diligently to avoid coin-toss propositions ... for example, pocket 10s against two overcards. Even though I'm a favorite in that position, I won't overplay those hands at a full table in a tournament because I don't want to end up as a 53% favorite to double-up. But 80% with an overpair? Is that more compelling? Obviously, but enough to risk the all-in early in the tournament? I'll take that every day and twice on Sunday in a cash game, but maybe I need to alter my thinking for tournament play on this front. Sure, each one ending up being a bad beat. No, I don't want to move away from trusting my reads. But should I be toning down the aggressiveness on the tight-aggressive play early in a tournament?
I really don't see why you're second guessing the 1st hand. If you had just called the re-raise preflop, you would have bet post-flop with an over pair, he would have went all in with his trips and you would have called. You would have been out anyways, aggressive poker wins pots. You're not going to win every pot you should win and you're not going to lose every pot you should lose. Bad beats happen. You were a HUGE favorite pre-flop! If you have the cards, bet the cards. If you think you have the best hand, bet big. If he had suited connectors or something he would have folded and you would have taken it down right there.