Why don't I watch pro basketball?

[Raven Hawk]

I'm just curious to see if anybody else knows the answer to this. I used to love basketball and watched it all the time when I was younger. Now, I just can't get interested in it. Being from Chicago, I would watch the playoffs when the Bulls were in it, just because it was a Chicago team. But that's about it.

Now when I hear that the US team loses games in the Olympics, I laugh at them.

Has professional basketball been crap for the last ten years, or is it just me?

Side note, I still find college basketball fun to watch, so it has to be something with the pro game, right?

[rkmsuf]

I'm just curious to see if anybody else knows the answer to this. I used to love basketball and watched it all the time when I was younger. Now, I just can't get interested in it. Being from Chicago, I would watch the playoffs when the Bulls were in it, just because it was a Chicago team. But that's about it.

Now when I hear that the US team loses games in the Olympics, I laugh at them.

Has professional basketball been crap for the last ten years, or is it just me?

Side note, I still find college basketball fun to watch, so it has to be something with the pro game, right?

You'd love it if Jordan or the Bulls were winning.

[Raven Hawk]

Here's the thing. That was good enough their first time around. I'd watch games all the time, regular season and playoffs. Second time round, with Rodman, I only watched the playoffs.

Understandably, the Bulls suck now, so that may have something to do with it.

I just don't find the game as a whole that exciting any more.

[Bee]

When I was in college (in the 80's), I watched a lot of basketball - both college and pro. Sometime in the early 90's my interest really fell off. I think it had to do with the kind of basketball that we started seeing. I now watch almost no basketball other than the NCAA tourney.

[rkmsuf]

Here's the thing. That was good enough their first time around. I'd watch games all the time, regular season and playoffs. Second time round, with Rodman, I only watched the playoffs.

Understandably, the Bulls suck now, so that may have something to do with it.

I just don't find the game as a whole that exciting any more.

It's all relative. In Detroit they go bonkers for the Pistons. LA loves the Lakers. Miami will pack em in every night. If you live in Atlanta you are not even sure the NBA exists anymore.

[Gary Gorski]

Understandably, the Bulls suck now, so that may have something to do with it.


It probably does have something to do with it. I love basketball (obviously) and for a stretch there in the 90's I barely watched the pro game because my team (the Pistons) sucked. Now that the Pistons are champs (and have been playing very well the last 3 years) there is such a renewed interest in basketball in Detroit its crazy. I really enjoy watching the Pistons play now because they play a team game and are successful.

Its a similar thing with baseball here - the Tigers have sucked so long that not many people really care that much about it. If they ever got back into a contender I think baseball interest would very easily be renewed here.

[CraigSca]

I still love college, but I haven't been able to watch a pro game in 10+ years.

[Raven Hawk]

It probably does have something to do with it. I love basketball (obviously) and for a stretch there in the 90's I barely watched the pro game because my team (the Pistons) sucked. Now that the Pistons are champs (and have been playing very well the last 3 years) there is such a renewed interest in basketball in Detroit its crazy. I really enjoy watching the Pistons play now because they play a team game and are successful.

Its a similar thing with baseball here - the Tigers have sucked so long that not many people really care that much about it. If they ever got back into a contender I think baseball interest would very easily be renewed here.
Here's the issue that I have with this. I don't know if this proves or disproves your theory to any degree.

1) The Bears suck, but I still watch every game.

2) The Bulls suck, but I won't watch a single game.

It may not be fair to compare sport to sport, but I'd think that if I were that fairweather of a fan, I would have abandoned the Bears when Wannestadt came to town.

[rkmsuf]

Here's the issue that I have with this. I don't know if this proves or disproves your theory to any degree.

1) The Bears suck, but I still watch every game.

2) The Bulls suck, but I won't watch a single game.

It may not be fair to compare sport to sport, but I'd think that if I were that fairweather of a fan, I would have abandoned the Bears when Wannestadt came to town.

I'd classify football differently. Football is a once a week game and with fantasy ect it lends itself to more of an ability to watch any game. The Bears, even though they suck, could have a meaningful upset. If the Bulls beat the Lakers during the regular season, big whoop.

[Gary Gorski]

I'd classify football differently. Football is a once a week game and with fantasy ect it lends itself to more of an ability to watch any game. The Bears, even though they suck, could have a meaningful upset. If the Bulls beat the Lakers during the regular season, big whoop.

What he said...same goes for the Lions in Detroit. I swear, with the amount of support they have for sucking so bad if they EVER win the Super Bowl I can only imagine the chaos that could ensue :D

[Raven Hawk]

I'd classify football differently. Football is a once a week game and with fantasy ect it lends itself to more of an ability to watch any game. The Bears, even though they suck, could have a meaningful upset. If the Bulls beat the Lakers during the regular season, big whoop.
I do recognize this as a problem with Baseball, Basketball and Hockey. If you lose a game, who gives a shit? You still have 81 more games to go. Incidentally the best hockey that I have ever seen was in the reduced season when there was a lockout/strike.

So, now my team sucks, and who gives a shit if they upset the Lakers because the game is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Why care? Why watch?

You make an excellent case.

[rkmsuf]

I do recognize this as a problem with Baseball, Basketball and Hockey. If you lose a game, who gives a shit? You still have 81 more games to go. Incidentally the best hockey that I have ever seen was in the reduced season when there was a lockout/strike.

So, now my team sucks, and who gives a shit if they upset the Lakers because the game is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Why care? Why watch?

You make an excellent case.

I know, I'm a Celtic fan. It's been a long time between drinks.

[totoro]

Exactly, no excitement at all. NBA tried to hype as many player as possible to bring fans back, but it doesn't seem working. Now the Olympic team (dream team???) got beaten in Athen. That's a huge embarrassment for NBA fans. I can't imagine how many NBA fans are gonna quit watching the game.... at least I am. :mad:

[rkmsuf]

Exactly, no excitement at all. NBA tried to hype as many player as possible to bring fans back, but it doesn't seem working. Now the Olympic team (dream team???) got beaten in Athen. That's a huge embarrassment for NBA fans. I can't imagine how many NBA fans are gonna quit watching the game.... at least I am. :mad:

They will lose zero...or actually only 1 fan as a result of the Olympics.

[Token Asian Guy]

I've been a die hard bulls fan since '90, but my interest really soared when the lockout season came around and they started stinking. Now, I'm sort of getting tired of the whole losing thing, it lost it's charm quickly. Simply put, the pro game doesn't have the atmosphere of the college game. Put the cameron crazies in most NBA arenas, and they'll have the place rockin.

[rkmsuf]

I've been a die hard bulls fan since '90, but my interest really soared when the lockout season came around and they started stinking. Now, I'm sort of getting tired of the whole losing thing, it lost it's charm quickly. Simply put, the pro game doesn't have the atmosphere of the college game. Put the cameron crazies in most NBA arenas, and they'll have the place rockin.

let college kids in for free and you'll get all the atmosphere you'd want.

[JasonC23]

I love college basketball and I'm indifferent, at best, to pro basketball. I point to the 2004 Athens "Dream Team" as my prime example of why that's so.

[Ksyrup]

I can't pinpoint a reason, but I pretty much stopped following the NBA about 10 years ago. I wouldn't say I go out of my way to avoid it, but it is now just above soccer on my "list of sports to watch on TV when nothing else is on." I have a general idea of what's going on, but now probably can't name more than 3 guys who start for most teams, let alone bench players, and have never heard of quite a few guys who supposedly play in the NBA these days. The only time I know which teams are doing well is when I happen to hear someone on ESPN mention it.

I'm not sure it's the style of play, because I don't know that much about basketball to really critique the Xs and Os of it. I know I don't like how personailty-driven the sport has become, and maybe that's the biggest reason I can put my finger on. Also, basketball is the one sport my wife hates, so to the extent I might otherwise be willing to watch basketball, I generally will not turn it on if she's in the room (this falls under either "picking your battles" or "wisely allocating your sports TV minutes"). As a result, I haven't been exposed to many games over the past 5-10 years, when I otherwise might have been.

As for college hoops, I enjoy it more than NBA, but I still don't really watch much of it. I think I've just out-grown the game itself for the most part, and the NBA's "look at me" mentality just assures that I won't be giving it a second chance anytime soon.

Unless Detroit gets back to the Finals, of course.

[Gary Gorski]

Simply put, the pro game doesn't have the atmosphere of the college game. Put the cameron crazies in most NBA arenas, and they'll have the place rockin.

Not true - many college venues are not rockin like Cameron and not all pro venues are dead. Go to a game at The Palace this season to watch the Pistons - you will see a very diverse and loud crowd. The atmosphere has mostly to do with winning - if Duke was a lifetime cellar-dwellar in the ACC I really doubt there would be cameron crazies.

The other factors are economics and fan base - its not cheap to go to an NBA game for any team unless you want to buy one of the league mandated "cheap seats" for $10. If you want to sit where the cameron crazies sit you need to pony up triple digits whereas Im sure that its not as expensive to attend most NCAA games (unless its the NCAA tournament). Also with the NCAA the fan base that is "rowdy" is the students - they have a reason to go to the game to support their school and in some places like Duke the students are the "sought after" clients - they are VIPs there because without them there is no cameron crazies - there is no such connection with NBA teams. The NBA could care less if you're a student or a businessman just so long as you buy a ticket.

[rkmsuf]

Unless you are of college age or just love the tournament I don't see what's so thrilling about an ACC tilt between Georgia Tech and Maryland over an NBA game.

[FBPro]

Pro Hoops= NO real defense OR TEAM play. Track meet with a dunk at the end. Boring as ............. and sux. The need to allow REAL zone defense back into the game and raise the goal 2 feet. Then maybe it might be interesting.

[Gary Gorski]

Pro Hoops= NO real defense OR TEAM play.

Umm, there's this team from Detroit that played pretty good defense, played as a team and won the championship :)

[Huckleberry]

I don't watch the NBA because I'm a fan of little things like crisp passing, good shooting, off-the-ball movement, and playing defense with your feet - through good position - instead of your hands.

[mckerney]

Pro Hoops= NO real defense OR TEAM play.

:rolleyes:

[druez]

I'm just curious to see if anybody else knows the answer to this. I used to love basketball and watched it all the time when I was younger. Now, I just can't get interested in it. Being from Chicago, I would watch the playoffs when the Bulls were in it, just because it was a Chicago team. But that's about it.

Now when I hear that the US team loses games in the Olympics, I laugh at them.

Has professional basketball been crap for the last ten years, or is it just me?

Side note, I still find college basketball fun to watch, so it has to be something with the pro game, right?

In all fairness to the US basketball team. If the olympics were being played with NBA style of rules, this is a totally different olympics and we would be stomping them.

[Huckleberry]

F me. I wasted my 1,000th post on the G%# D%%$ M^*#&@F&*#$%@ NBA.

[vtbub]

In all fairness to the US basketball team. If the olympics were being played with NBA style of rules, this is a totally different olympics and we would be stomping them.


BZZZZ, wrong answer. We actually have come closer to NBA rules this year. Zones are legal in the NBA and FIBA has inroduced the 24 second shot clock.

We get beat for the same reason the Lakers lost the finals, we don't play as a team. We won't medal because we don't play basketball, we play streetball.

(It's nice to see traveling called.)

[rkmsuf]

BZZZZ, wrong answer. We actually have come closer to NBA rules this year. Zones are legal in the NBA and FIBA has inroduced the 24 second shot clock.

We get beat for the same reason the Lakers lost the finals, we don't play as a team. We won't medal because we don't play basketball, we play streetball.

(It's nice to see traveling called.)

they should play Vermont street ball.

[vtbub]

they should play Vermont street ball.


It would be to embarrasing to lose to the women's team.:)

[Noop]

It's all relative. In Detroit they go bonkers for the Pistons. LA loves the Lakers. Miami will pack em in every night. If you live in Atlanta you are not even sure the NBA exists anymore.
That is true now with Shaq but trust me the only thing that will get alot of fans to come is highschool football. Ask anyone about Miami sports fans they are some of the worst and I happen to be one myself. When the Marlins looked like they might make the playoffs attendence shot up I remember classmates missing class just to catch some of those games. When they made the playoffs it seemed like everyone in South Florida was a Marlins fan. So yeah my point is Miami fans aren't that good. Even if we have Shaq...

[rkmsuf]

That is true now with Shaq but trust me the only thing that will get alot of fans to come is highschool football. Ask anyone about Miami sports fans they are some of the worst and I happen to be one myself. When the Marlins looked like they might make the playoffs attendence shot up I remember classmates missing class just to catch some of those games. When they made the playoffs it seemed like everyone in South Florida was a Marlins fan. So yeah my point is Miami fans aren't that good. Even if we have Shaq...

they will sell out

[mckerney]

(It's nice to see traveling called.)

I saw traveling go uncalled in games I saw, and it wasn't necessarily by the USA.

It's nice to see why practically every center from overseas is soft though.

[Ksyrup]

Miami is the East Coast LA.

[Huckleberry]

I saw traveling go uncalled in games I saw, and it wasn't necessarily by the USA.

It's nice to see why practically every center from overseas is soft though.

Yeah, I know. They're used to fouls being called. Those softies.

[mckerney]

Yeah, I know. They're used to touch fouls being called inside. Those softies.

True.

[Huckleberry]

Ha. I'm referring to actual fouls that are fouls according to that pesky little thing called a rulebook.

[Kevin]

To say there's no defense in the NBA seems odd given that so many games are in the 80's for scoring. When I followed the NBA, the average was about 105 with only one or two bottom dwellers averaging less than 100. Defense hasn't gotten exponentially better, but it's not any worse. Scoring is probably down because there is less room on the court because everyone's bigger now, plus everyone wants to be on the highlight reel.

International basketball is entertaining because of ball movement and good outside shooting. Every team has a couple of outside snipers that can get them back in a game. The NBA has fallen too much in love of having five guys at 6-9 on the floor all trying to post up against two and three defenders.

[druez]

BZZZZ, wrong answer. We actually have come closer to NBA rules this year. Zones are legal in the NBA and FIBA has inroduced the 24 second shot clock.

We get beat for the same reason the Lakers lost the finals, we don't play as a team. We won't medal because we don't play basketball, we play streetball.

(It's nice to see traveling called.)

ON the zone defense issue.


FIBA
Legal

NBA
Legal, however a defensive player may not stay in the lane (a.k.a. key, restricted area) for longer than three seconds if he is not actively guarding an opponent (penalty: technical foul, shot clock reset to 14 if necessary)

To me that is a big difference.

[moriarty]

. Scoring is probably down because there is less room on the court because everyone's bigger now

You're kidding right?

[Kevin]

My point was that small forwards used to all be 6-4 to 6-7. Now there are 7 footers playing SF in some cases. Today's big men also are much quicker than in the past. This means passing lanes are more easily clogged, and it's harder to shoot over people.
Big men can now get back quickly against the break.

I guess what I am saying is much the same as in hockey. When athletes are getting bigger, stronger and faster; the old dimensions of the playing surface cramp some of the free movement necessary to generate offense.

[Leonidas]

For awhile in the 80's basketball was my favorite sport. I probably watched 5 college games a week on ESPN and never missed the Sunday NBA game on CBS. Watching David Thompson, George Gervin, Julius Erving, Sidney Moncrief, etc was a pleasure. Those guys had true skills. An average score might be 122-120. A 50% shooter from the floor was just average to above average. Some teams even averaged 50%. And a fast break team like Denver or San Antonio were very entertaining.

What these guys play today is simply painful. Even the good players like McGrady and Iverson are low shooting ball hogs. Only a handful og guys like Bryant, Nowitzki, and Garnett have the kind of skills even average players had in the 80's.

A big culture change behond this is the attitude in streetball. I played plenty of streetball in the 80's with and against former NCAA players and old high school stars. Back then you would just play through if a guy fouled you. If the guy decked you, yeah you'd call the foul, but otherwise you played through it. It was dishonorable to call fouls. Nowadays on the street they call fouls on everything. I watch guys at the gym and can't believe it. They don't go 10 seconds without calling each other. They talk about how tough playing ball on the street is, I laugh. We would have called all these guys crybabies.

I think this permeates the NBA. I think since there are few really good free throw shooters in the NBA the strategy is foul a guy first. I think the NBA should go to 5 fouls and your out and maybe consider going back to the days when you had the 3 for 2 free throw shooting as a disincentive to foul.

[rkmsuf]

I watched a game from 1983 a couple nights ago. Lakers and Spurs I think. Man those guys sucked. At the time it was great but looking at it now they'd get creamed today.

[Huckleberry]

My point was that small forwards used to all be 6-4 to 6-7. Now there are 7 footers playing SF in some cases. Today's big men also are much quicker than in the past. This means passing lanes are more easily clogged, and it's harder to shoot over people.
Big men can now get back quickly against the break.

I guess what I am saying is much the same as in hockey. When athletes are getting bigger, stronger and faster; the old dimensions of the playing surface cramp some of the free movement necessary to generate offense.

The size of the player is only a very minor influence on that. Just the same as in hockey, the NBA has allowed their game to change to one where handchecking, hip checks, pushing a player in the back to get him out of position are not only not called, but in some cases intentionally allowed. That is what is limiting player movement. Start calling the handchecks, or what fans of ugly basketball like to call "touch fouls". In a couple of months the players will have adjusted and the free movement will return.

[druez]

The size of the player is only a very minor influence on that. Just the same as in hockey, the NBA has allowed their game to change to one where handchecking, hip checks, pushing a player in the back to get him out of position are not only not called, but in some cases intentionally allowed. That is what is limiting player movement. Start calling the handchecks, or what fans of ugly basketball like to call "touch fouls". In a couple of months the players will have adjusted and the free movement will return.

Go watch hockey in the 70's and make that statement....

[Gary Gorski]

I think since there are few really good free throw shooters in the NBA the strategy is foul a guy first. I think the NBA should go to 5 fouls and your out and maybe consider going back to the days when you had the 3 for 2 free throw shooting as a disincentive to foul.

Changing the number of fouls or how many shots they shoot isn't going to make the ball go in any more often.

The only way to get teams to stop just blatantly hacking players to prevent them from making baskets is....if the players can MAKE FREE THROWS. Lowering the foul limit only means you're going to get more scrubs in there to use up their fouls and giving them extra shots only means they're scoring more points because they're getting more shots - that's like saying lets add a 5th quarter of regulation time so the scores can be in the 100s.

The problem isn't the game it's the players and it starts with high school kids and their coaches. Kids spend more time playing things like AAU and at the local Y or fieldhouse than they do playing organized basketball games. IMO AAU basketball is the WORST possible thing kids can play. Kids spend too much time working on mimicking the And-1 tapes instead of doing boring things like shooting free throws. Besides, who needs to shoot a free throw when you can put the ball under your shirt and knock it around your body, right :rolleyes:

H.S. and AAU coaches are as much to blame because many of them don't care about anything other than keeping their position and getting their fifteen minutes of fame in the local newspaper too. You think if LeBron went out and scored 40 points and led St. Mary's-St Vincent to a 30 point win that his coach was going to point out that he shot 65% from the FT line that game or that he set a couple of very poor screens? He'd pat him on the back and tell him he played great cause he scored 40 points and they won. You would think a basketball coach would tell a player "hey, the time before the game is to warm up not drive a remote control Hummer around the court" :rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with the rules of the NBA or the court dimensions or the size of the players - the problem is the players don't know how to do anything but dunk and do fancy dribbles. Someone needs to teach kids how to play the game of basketball and that things like And-1 is just entertainment and not how the game is supposed to be played.