Ichiro Suzuki just a good player?

[Galaril]

I understand this guys point but geez come on the guy has a lifetime .338 avg with 200 hits each of his four seasons. Either this guy hates the mariners or doesn't like Ichiro for some reason.

Sorry guys. I was half asleep.Here's the link.

I.Suzuki (http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2898514)

[KWhit]

Huh?

[rkmsuf]

time to lose the imaginary friend.

[FBPro]

Huh?

Exactly.

[panerd]

So replies 2-4 tell me that I am not still really drunk or having an acid flashback. This thread doesn't make any sense.

[rkmsuf]

I UNDERSTAND THIS GUYS POINT BUT GEZ COME ON TEH GUY HAS A LIEFTIEM 38111! OMG LOL AVG WIT 20 HITS AACH OF HIS FOUR S3ASONS1!1!!1 EITH3R THIS GUY HAETS DA MARIENRS OR DOESNT ICHIRO FOR SOME OTHAR MAYB NONA BAESBAL REASON111111 LOL

[Ksyrup]

Either this guy hates the mariners or doesn't Ichiro
You aren't cool until you Ichiro. All the kids are doing the Ichiro these days. In fact, they wrote a song about it:

Everybody Ichiro tonight
Everybody have fun tonight

[FBPro]

OMG, I must be drunk.................and I don't even drink.

[Joe]

I UNDERSTAND THIS GUYS POINT BUT GEZ COME ON TEH GUY HAS A LIEFTIEM 38111! OMG LOL AVG WIT 20 HITS AACH OF HIS FOUR S3ASONS1!1!!1 EITH3R THIS GUY HAETS DA MARIENRS OR DOESNT ICHIRO FOR SOME OTHAR MAYB NONA BAESBAL REASON111111 LOL

agreed

[korme]

best thread ever
bye bye guys see you soon

[Desnudo]

d0N'T j00 h4vE H0Me$?

[rkmsuf]

I understand this guys point but geez come on the guy has a lifetime .338 avg with 200 hits each of his four seasons. Either this guy hates the mariners or doesn't like Ichiro for some reason.

Sorry guys. I was half asleep.Here's the link.

I.Suzuki (http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2898514)

It was much better in original form

[Desnudo]

It was much better in original form

H@TEr

[rkmsuf]

DONT HAET TEH PLAEYR HAET DA GME1!1! WTF LOL

[Ksyrup]

I understand this guys point but geez come on the guy has a lifetime .338 avg with 200 hits each of his four seasons. Either this guy hates the mariners or doesn't like Ichiro for some reason.

Sorry guys. I was half asleep.Here's the link.

I.Suzuki (http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2898514)
It's called a reality check. They guy is a very good player, but his ability to hit singles should not overshadow is shortcomings. Plus, there's no way he was the MVP in 2001.

[bbor]

I would'nt mind having him on my team

[Ksyrup]

I would'nt mind having him on my team
That's not the issue, though, is it?

[Hammer755]

IMO, that article hit Ichiro's value right on the head - Ichiro has a better than average OBP, and a slightly better than average SLG. I think maybe he devalues Ichiro's steals a bit - that many stolen bases at that success rate is definitely valuable. He's a good hitter, and the steals and his defense make him a very good player but overall I couldn't agree more with the author's take, he's not a 'great' player and that 2001 MVP deserved to go to Giambi.

And I can't believe an article on FoxSports.com mentions VORP.

[John Galt]

IMO, that article hit Ichiro's value right on the head. I think maybe he devalues Ichiro's steals a bit - that many stolen bases at that success rate is definitely valuable - but overall I couldn't agree more with the author's take.

And I can't believe an article on FoxSports.com mentions VORP.

There is still hope.

[chinaski]

Ichiro is the greatest contact hitter ever to play baseball. In just a few weeks, the record books will confirm that, again. :)

[bbor]

That's not the issue, though, is it?

In an indirect kinda way it is....cause my team would be GREAT! :)

[rkmsuf]

I don't know many teams who wouldn't be starting him @ CF...that makes him elite, IMO.

He's at least in the top 30, yeah that sounds elite :)

[rexallllsc]

He's at least in the top 30, yeah that sounds elite :)

Hey, I deleted that! :)

No, I mean I think most teams would be starting him @ CF if given the chance. He's prob. a top 5 player...I know he plays RF in Seattle, though...

[John Galt]

Hey, I deleted that! :)

No, I mean I think most teams would be starting him @ CF if given the chance. He's prob. a top 5 player...I know he plays RF in Seattle, though...

Top 5 Player????? That's just crazy talk. Even if you don't buy crazy stats like VORP, how do you think he is better than Bonds, Pujols, A-Rod, Rolen, Helton, Vlad, Schmidt, Big Unit, Pedro, Schilling, etc?

[clintl]

I agree that he shouldn't be an MVP candidate, but his stats so far look a lot like Rod Carew's and Tony Gwynn's to me, both of whom I think were great players. I think he's a lot better than good.

[John Galt]

I agree that he shouldn't be an MVP candidate, but his stats so far look a lot like Rod Carew's and Tony Gwynn's to me, both of whom I think were great players. I think he's a lot better than good.

This is by far his best season and I'm actually inclined to say this is a great season. His VORP of 63.7 is very good and his defense continues to be pretty good. Overall, I'm not so sure he is a "great" player, but I think he is pretty close. Playing RF seriously hurts his case, but I think he offers a lot to a team (although I'm not one who feels his SB are very helpful - he only has stolen with a 75% success this year).

[Hammer755]

I agree that he shouldn't be an MVP candidate, but his stats so far look a lot like Rod Carew's and Tony Gwynn's to me, both of whom I think were great players. I think he's a lot better than good.
To me, the best statistic to use to compare sluggers with batters like Ichiro is RC, or better yet, RC/27. Runs Created factors in stolen bases & caught stealing. Ichiro is only fifth in the AL in RC/27 this year.

Leaderboard (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=al&season=2004&seasonType=2&sort=runsCreatedPer27Outs&type=sab&ageMin=0&ageMax=99&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all)
1. Mora, 8.9
2. Manny, 8.4
3. Hafner, 8.3
4. Rowand, 8.0
5. Ichiro, 8.0

[Hammer755]

Dola

Here is the NL RC/27. All I can say is WOW!

Leaderboard (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=sab&sort=runsCreatedPer27Outs&minpa=0&split=0&season=2004&pos=all&hand=a&league=nl&ageMin=0&ageMax=99)
1. Bonds, 20.2
2. Helton, 10.8
3. Edmonds, 10.3
4. Berkman, 9.6
5. Pujols, 9.6
6. Rolen, 9.2

[Ksyrup]

What in the hell has gotten into Melvin Mora?

[Hammer755]

Digging a bit deeper into the stats, I noticed that there are only two players in the AL with enough AB to qualify that have a lower Isolated Power (SLG - BA) than Ichiro and only 4 have a lower Secondary Average (which once again includes SB/CS) and that list includes guys like David Eckstein and Angel Berroa.

That basically means that nearly all of Ichiro's hits are singles, and his stolen bases don't really make up much of the difference.

[Hammer755]

What in the hell has gotten into Melvin Mora?
Dola

I'm not sure, but he has a far stronger case for MVP than Ichiro, IMO.

[John Galt]

Dola

I'm not sure, but he has a far stronger case for MVP than Ichiro, IMO.

As a couple authors at BP have pointed out, Carlos Guillen has a better case than both of them (and I think Sheehan has him as his top choice in the AL).

[Ksyrup]

Last year happens every now and then. But Mora has followed that partial year up with an extraordinary second year - at age 32, after doing little or nothing for a few years before. Amazing.

And I said at the time of the Guillen trade I had no clue what Seattle was thinking. But I had no clue Guillen would be this good. I knew he was 10 times better than Aurelia, and that move was awful just on that basis, but now Bavasi looks even more stupid.

[rexallllsc]

Top 5 Player????? That's just crazy talk. Even if you don't buy crazy stats like VORP, how do you think he is better than Bonds, Pujols, A-Rod, Rolen, Helton, Vlad, Schmidt, Big Unit, Pedro, Schilling, etc?

Top 5 @ his position.

[John Galt]

Top 5 @ his position.

That's much more reasonable, although I don't know if I believe the top 5 players at each position are "great." For RF's, I still think he trails Vlad, Abreu, JD Drew (this year anyway), and Sheffield. If Manny still played RF, I would put him ahead as well. I also think Cabrera is very close to Ichiro in quality. So, I may say top 5 RF, but even that is close. So, I still think "great" is a hard label to apply (although I can understand it), but MVP is impossible to apply (and I can't understand that at all).

[rexallllsc]

That's much more reasonable, although I don't know if I believe the top 5 players at each position are "great." For RF's, I still think he trails Vlad, Abreu, JD Drew (this year anyway), and Sheffield. If Manny still played RF, I would put him ahead as well. I also think Cabrera is very close to Ichiro in quality. So, I may say top 5 RF, but even that is close. So, I still think "great" is a hard label to apply (although I can understand it), but MVP is impossible to apply (and I can't understand that at all).

Word. I can agree with that, after thinking about it somemore.

[mgadfly]

When did hitting singles become such a bad thing? Especially for a lead off hitter. Why Ichiro is great (rather than just good) is the way he changes the game by forcing other teams to do things differently than they normally would.

A couple of examples that aren't factored into Ichiro's stats:
1) The number of Fastballs Brett Boone saw in 2001
2) The number of runners that hold at 2 rather than going for 3 when a ball is hit to RF

He changes the game in ways that very few players do today that isn't as appreciated in the statistics that are currently all the rage amongst stat heads. What he really needs is a decent hitter behind him in the lineup to take full advantage of how he impacts the game (then his team would probably win, like say, 116 games in a season or something).

That said, there are obviously better players in the league than him, but he is still great because he does some things as good or better than anyone else can, and some of those things are impossible to measure statistically.

[Desnudo]

DONT HAET TEH PLAEYR HAET DA GME1!1! WTF LOL

D00D wtPH? I 4m $0 G01N9 +0 H4XOr J00R C0mPUT3r!! MuH4H4! FE4R ME! 0Wn3D!

[clintl]

When did hitting singles become such a bad thing? Especially for a lead off hitter. Why Ichiro is great (rather than just good) is the way he changes the game by forcing other teams to do things differently than they normally would.

A couple of examples that aren't factored into Ichiro's stats:
1) The number of Fastballs Brett Boone saw in 2001
2) The number of runners that hold at 2 rather than going for 3 when a ball is hit to RF

He changes the game in ways that very few players do today that isn't as appreciated in the statistics that are currently all the rage amongst stat heads. What he really needs is a decent hitter behind him in the lineup to take full advantage of how he impacts the game (then his team would probably win, like say, 116 games in a season or something).

That said, there are obviously better players in the league than him, but he is still great because he does some things as good or better than anyone else can, and some of those things are impossible to measure statistically.

I tend to agree with the main point here. As much as sabremetrics has changed the way we look at the game, it doesn't measure everything, and probably never can. Certainly, it doesn't measure the adjustments opposing teams and managers make because of special skills that some players have. These adjustments would show up in the stats of other players, and the cause and effect would be difficult, if not impossible, to separate.

[Sharpieman]

He's a good hitter, thats about it. His OBP is good, he doesn't strike out a lot, he doesn't hit for extra bases a lot either. The problem is that he's one of those rare guys who doesn't walk a lot and doesn't strike out a lot. If he learned to walk a bit more he would be one of the most dangerous players in the game. His SB help becuase he's only been caught 10 times in 42 attemps. He's over that 70% threshold.