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View Full Version : Poker Hand (Or: How Not to Play Poker)


Vince
09-09-2004, 05:00 AM
Ok...I'll preface this with the fact that I think this hand was played HORRIBLY INCORRECTLY by everyone involved at one point or another. I'd like to see if some of the more knowledgeable poker players here agree with me. We'll play the whole hand along...

First off is our hero. He'd like to think he's a Tight/Aggressive player, but he's probably a little too loose, and as we shall find out, can't let go of a good hand soon enough.

Second off is adversary number 1. We'll call her Maniac. She sure as hell plays like one. She will play 35 offsuit while cold-calling a 3-bet pre-flop.

Finally, we have adversary number 2. We'll call him Tightwad. He plays NOTHING unless he's got something. Absolutely HATES draws...will fold four to the flush after the flop often.

And now we have the hand in question. At an 8 person table, no-limit hold 'em tournament, Maniac is first to act, followed by our hero, and finally Tightwad. For the record, Maniac was UTG, Hero was UTG + 1, and Tightwad was the button on the previous hand. Blinds are $1-$2, chipstacks about even amonst the three protagonists, around $150-$200.

Hole cards are dealt...our hero looks at AhKs. Maniac raises to $5 in front, Hero re-raises to $10. Table folds to Tightwad, who calls. Maniac calls, and everyone else is out of the hand. Flop comes 4-7-A rainbow. Maniac bets $40 out front. Our hero, wary of the fact that Maniac could be playing 47 and Tightwad is yet to act behind, simply calls the $40. Tightwad immediately raises to $80. At this point, the hero stops to think. Tightwad would never play 74, A4 or A7 to a pre-flop raise and re-raise. Hero considers putting Tightwad on AA...eventually decides that Tightwad must be playing AK. Also - at this point, the majority of Tightwad's chips are in the pot. Maniac calls the $80 raise, leaving her with $22 in chips, which now completely throws our hero for a loop. Maniac, while willing to play ridiculous hands, knows very well that she's up against two of the best players in the group, and wouldn't call unless she felt good about her hand. Perhaps all the aces are in play?

After a ton of consideration, our hero decides that he will call the $80 bet (this is where our hero is mistaken, by my count...which means pretty much the rest of the hand is a mistake as well). Turn card comes, Queen completing the rainbow. No flush. Board is now 4-7-A-Q. Maniac immediately goes all-in for the remaining $22. For only $22, hero decides he's too committed to the pot, and calls. Tightwad calls as well, and after a small discussion, all parties decide to flip their cards over (even though Tightwad and our Hero are not all-in). Our hero reveals top pair, top kicker. Our hero is quite dismayed when he realizes he is drawing dead against Tightwad's set of 4s. Our hero is even more dismayed when he realizes he is also drawing dead against Maniac's set of Queens. River card misses everyone (I think it was an 8), and Maniac takes down a huge pot, crippling both Tightwad and our hero.

So, my review of the hand:

Pre-Flop:
- Maniac correctly raised in early position with pocket Qs.
- Hero correctly re-raised in early position with AK. (debatable...but against a maniac's raise I think it's correct)
- Tightwad incorrectly (in my opinion) cold-called a raise and re-raise pre-flop with pocket 4s.
- Maniac correctly called the re-raise.

Post-Flop: 4-7-A board, rainbow
- I like Maniac's opening bet, but I think it's too much money.
- Not sure about the Hero's call here -- being worried about the tightwad is one thing, but not raising a maniac with top pair, top kicker is not a smart play. The size of the Maniac's bet scared the Hero off the raise.
- Tightwad correctly raises with a set of 4s.
- Maniac incorrectly calls the raise with only a pair of Queens, an ace on the board, and a pre-flop re-raiser waiting to act behind her. (My opinion)
- This call is the hero's biggest mistake, in my opinion. Should have folded here, especially against Tightwad's raise. Hero believed Tightwad was trying to scare off Maniac's draw.

Post-Turn: 4-7-A-Q board, rainbow completed
- Maniac's opening all-in is perfect.
- Hero's call, based upon money in the pot and his previous actions, correctly calls (though he shouldn't be in here anymore)
- Tightwad's call is again correct, simply based upon his hand and the size of the pot.

The end. I'm amazed Tightwad played 4's to a pre-flop raise and re-raise. I'm not really surprised that Maniac stayed in, but I still think it was an incorrect play. And the Hero, fairly certain he was beat, called anyways. Foolish on everyone's part at some point in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

Radii
09-09-2004, 09:47 AM
- Maniac correctly raised in early position with pocket Qs.
- Hero correctly re-raised in early position with AK. (debatable...but against a maniac's raise I think it's correct)
- Tightwad incorrectly (in my opinion) cold-called a raise and re-raise pre-flop with pocket 4s.
- Maniac correctly called the re-raise.


Hero needed to raise more probably. A $5 raise isn't really all that strong IMO. Raise to $15, not $10, pre-flop, if your read is accurate on the maniac, you *really* want to isolate him with a strong hand.

A big case could be made for a big re-raise, to $30 or more, from the guy with QQ. There's now $30 in the pot, you have the 3rd best hand in poker, and you probalby want to be in charge there.

Post-Flop: 4-7-A board, rainbow
- I like Maniac's opening bet, but I think it's too much money.
- Not sure about the Hero's call here -- being worried about the tightwad is one thing, but not raising a maniac with top pair, top kicker is not a smart play. The size of the Maniac's bet scared the Hero off the raise.
- Tightwad correctly raises with a set of 4s.


Pot is what, $33 on the flop? A $40 bet isn't unreasonable at all IMO. Tightwad again could make a case for an all-in, but, he has a real strong hand here. He's only behind AA and 77, I guess a small raise or even a call here are probably ok, he's either waaaay behind or waaaaay ahead. But that raise is fine too probalby.


- Maniac incorrectly calls the raise with only a pair of Queens, an ace on the board, and a pre-flop re-raiser waiting to act behind her. (My opinion)
- This call is the hero's biggest mistake, in my opinion. Should have folded here, especially against Tightwad's raise. Hero believed Tightwad was trying to scare off Maniac's draw.


Maniac has a call and a raiser behind him with an ace on the board. Time to cut her losses.

After the maniac calls the hero has to make a read and all-in or fold IMO.


Post-Turn: 4-7-A-Q board, rainbow completed
- Maniac's opening all-in is perfect.
- Hero's call, based upon money in the pot and his previous actions, correctly calls (though he shouldn't be in here anymore)
- Tightwad's call is again correct, simply based upon his hand and the size of the pot.


the turning up the cards even though they weren't all in is just weird. tightwad should have gone all-in over the top of the $22 bet with his set. If hero had 77 or AA he would have(should have) gone in over the $22 bet, there's too much in the pot to pussyfoot around now.


The end. I'm amazed Tightwad played 4's to a pre-flop raise and re-raise. I'm not really surprised that Maniac stayed in, but I still think it was an incorrect play. And the Hero, fairly certain he was beat, called anyways. Foolish on everyone's part at some point in my opinion.


Agree on tightwad's cold-call of two raises w/ 44. What would have made it a *really* tough problem, is if the Maniac folded his QQ on the flop, and hero has top pair vs tightwad's set. the extra caller probably gives hero some reason to consider folding.. if the maniac folds though, hero has a real case to re-raise/go all-in.


I'm not the best tourney player so i'm curious if others have thoughts too.

Vince
09-09-2004, 09:49 AM
The whole stopping the betting thing is a weird-ass house quirk that my friends have. I don't understand it either. Personally, I don't think the Maniac would ever, ever, ever fold QQ. Ever.

IMetTrentGreen
09-09-2004, 11:04 AM
set was the first thing i thought of when tightwad stayed in. warning bells should have been going off in your head. tournaments are about survival. once the tightwad raised, you should have just been happy to step out of the way and let the other two duke it out

Vince
09-09-2004, 02:24 PM
Yup. Should have being the operative words. I think the fact that Tightwad and Maniac are boyfriend and girlfriend, while completely irrelevant in terms of the poker match, should have gotten me out of there quicker.