Movin' on up (advice)

[portnoise]

So my prospects look good for moving up to III in canada this season. To stick there, I figure I need to add 15 or 20 points to my NSI between now and then. I'm figuring the shortest way to do that is by selling off 1-2 midfielders and using the revenue, plus some or all of the $2.75M Canadian I have in the bank to buy a big upgrade in that area. I'm wondering if anyone with midfield market knowledge can give some advice about who to sell and what level to look at buying.

So here are my current starting midfielders:


Mats Mörnskog
TSI = 3 140 , 27 years, passable form
Has [B]inadequate experience and weak leadership abilities [Head]

Stamina: excellent Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: formidable Passing: weak
Winger: poor Defending: weak
Scoring: weak Set Pieces: solid

Mornskog has the lowest PM and highest age of all my middies, but has SP, Head, and experience, so is he the necessarily the most sellable?


Galip Sirin
TSI = 5 250 , 21 years, passable form
Has poor experience and passable leadership abilities [Quick]

Stamina: excellent Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: outstanding Passing: inadequate
Winger: poor Defending: wretched
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: poor

Sirin--superyoung, best PM skill on the team, with OK passing.


Chris Lavoie
TSI = 5 260 , 25 years, solid form
Has weak experience and wretched leadership abilities [Technical]

Stamina: excellent Keeper: wretched
[B]Playmaking: formidable Passing: inadequate
Winger: weak Defending: solid
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: poor

Defending secondary pushes his TSI up there with Sirin...but as a defense trainer, I don't particularly need help in defense.


Christian Goddard
TSI = 3 870 , 27 years, inadequate form
Has poor experience and poor leadership abilities [Powerful]

Stamina: solid Keeper: disastrous
Playmaking: solid Passing: inadequate
Winger: inadequate Defending: excellent
Scoring: poor Set Pieces: passable

My team's original "star" player was a mainstay in the midfield until I brought in Lavoie earlier this year. Since then, he's a good all-around backup to have, but just popped to excellent defending through no fault of mine which I think makes his sale value worth looking at.

Thoughts about how to go about this? Thanks!

[FrogMan]

wow, looking forward to seeing a second FOFCer in III in Canada :)

Personally, I'd sell Lavoie and Goddard for now. Lavoie because I'd expect him to fetch you some nice money for secondaries, at least the solid defending, that you don't really need.

Goddard, well because he will not, should not be part of your starting lineup from her on out. Will he's got nice secondaries, his only solid playmaking with only poor experience is not high enought to crack your starting lineup...

Don't know how much you''ll be able to get for them though.

One idea I'd swing by you if you want to help your midfield rating, and it would apply nicely to you, a defense trainer, is to get a not so old, say 19yo, formidable playmaker, with passable defense, and play him as an offensive centreback. I would think that with the defenders you have, you could spare the hit from the offensive order, and while he will not train as fast as the average 17yo defender, if you leave him there, one day you'll have a formidable defender with formidable playmaking and then he'll be worth a small fortune on the market... Just an idea...

FM

[sterlingice]

I'll echo just about everything FM said so I'm probably not very useful.

Since you're a defender trainee, Lavoire is a perfect sales candidate- great secondaries and should fetch some good cash and you don't need him. Then Goddard because if you can play solid PMs with poor experience in Div III Canada, I need to go to Canada.

You then go out and get a good playmaker with good passing to play alongside Mörnskog and Sirin and play him offensive to help out your likely lacking attack.

And I can't stress enough what FM said about an offensive central defender- I have a pair of passable playmakers with good stamina and whenever I play one at offensive central defender, they add two levels of midfield. Heck, if you play 4 or 5 guys across the back, get 2. That will help augment your midfield a lot.

Lastly, if you're a defender trainee, I bet you need some pretty elite strikers but can skimp a little on the keeper.

Granted, a lot of this is wishful thinking because there's a lot of cash I just spent in my mind right there, but that's how I would run a defensive training team.

SI

[FrogMan]

Great minds think alike, or something like that, huh? ;)

FM
PS: my offensive centreback is a formidable playmaker with excellent defending, just for the sake of comparison :)

[saintjo]

a strong offensive center back does seem like a good idea. i was thinking about this recently since im a defenst trainer as well.
i think after the offseason (i figure ill get a younger guy with better stanima if i wait till then) im going to purchase a 18-19 year old with excellent or higher playmaking with passable defending. probably b-team him until he hits solid defense. i figure i can get a few years out of him before he gets too old to train. then sell him at a pretty descent profit. and he will give me the midfield boost i need before i can really afford some better midfielders.

you both confirmed what i was wanting to do. thanks :) im definately going that way assuming money allows me too.

[sterlingice]

Great minds think alike, or something like that, huh? ;)

FM
PS: my offensive centreback is a formidable playmaker with excellent defending, just for the sake of comparison :)
My girlfriend and I have a saying something like that "Great minds think alike... and then there's us" when something like that happens ;)

SI

[portnoise]

And I can't stress enough what FM said about an offensive central defender- I have a pair of passable playmakers with good stamina and whenever I play one at offensive central defender, they add two levels of midfield. Heck, if you play 4 or 5 guys across the back, get 2. That will help augment your midfield a lot.

I do like the idea. Thanks!

It becomes a numbers game... do I then play 4-4-2 with 3IMs and ditch one winger? And will I need a superwingback on that side to generate any offense at all?

Lastly, if you're a defender trainee, I bet you need some pretty elite strikers but can skimp a little on the keeper.

Granted, a lot of this is wishful thinking because there's a lot of cash I just spent in my mind right there, but that's how I would run a defensive training team.

This is three purchases: an outstanding or magnificent PM with passing, an 18-19 year old form/pass offensive CD trainee, and a big striker (cause offense does always come last with this team). Right now, if I do a significant selloff, I can certainly buy the first. The question becomes whether to sell a trainee prematurely (likely an 18/formidable) or a starting defender to raise the cash to get the CD trainee.

[sterlingice]

I do like the idea. Thanks!

It becomes a numbers game... do I then play 4-4-2 with 3IMs and ditch one winger? And will I need a superwingback on that side to generate any offense at all?
Yeah, typically for a 4-4-2 you drop a winger. I think you just sacrifice the attack on that side and try to keep your opposition guessing which side you're going to attack (that and you'll have 2 good strikers giving you a good middle attack so 2 of 3 attacks are good). I wouldn't waste money trying to get a big attack with a superwingback. Just sacrifice it and spend money elsewhere. That said, I've never trained a 4-4-2 so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt :)

This is three purchases: an outstanding or magnificent PM with passing, an 18-19 year old form/pass offensive CD trainee, and a big striker (cause offense does always come last with this team). Right now, if I do a significant selloff, I can certainly buy the first. The question becomes whether to sell a trainee prematurely (likely an 18/formidable) or a starting defender to raise the cash to get the CD trainee./

Well, I don't see much harm in selling a starter to buy a CD trainee. You'll see that while you weaken your defense, it will help your midfield enough to offset that (unless you're dropping from, say, a world class defender down to a passable/solid with good playmaking). Heck, I'd even consider selling a second trainee prematurely (right after a bump, of course) to get a second one to train up for your 2nd team who could eventually work into your starting lineup as a second offensive central defender.

Still, to do more indepth analysis, I'd need ages and skill levels to make an accurate assessment. Then again, I'm not sure how much more indepth I can get since I've never run what you're running. But someone else (like DK or Doug or any of the other current/former defensive trainers) might be able to help you out.

SI

[portnoise]

In for a penny, in for a pound. Here's the downlow on the which-defender-to-sell question:

Usually I play a 3-5-2. My 3 starters are:

Alf Flodmar / 22yo / magnificent+1 / Head
Olgerts Klukovics / 20yo / brilliant+3
Calvin Paris / 19yo / brilliant+4 / Quick

...none with a secondary worth speaking of above inadequate. I play wingbacks defensive and don't worry about their winger skill... if I need to, I throw Vince Dupuis (below) into the mix.

After that it drops a bit:
Ariel Connors / 18yo / form+6 / passable PM / Head
Arik Revivo / 18yo / form+1 / passable wing
Vince Dupuis / 20yo / exce+7 / excellent wing
Derk Weidinger / 17yo / exce+6 / passable PM / Quick
Mark Carpenter / 17yo / exce+1 / solid PM

For me, it's like, should I sell Olgerts and promote Ariel Connors? Or sell Arik Revivo and replace him straight up with a formidable PM guy? It's becoming a money question... off to do research on what all this is gonna cost me...

[portnoise]

Dola... thinking that a brill PM with solid passing and a form PM with passable defending who's 18 are going to total around 10M Canadian. 5M US sound right to those in the know?

Selling Olgerts will get me to about 10.4M. Meanwhile, the time spent training Arik Revivo for another season is probably worth more than spending that time training Olgerts...

[FrogMan]

I'd think it's about right. From the notes I've taken about brilliant/solid (I have an outstanding/solid that will be sold when he'll pop to brilliant next season, a Canadian too! :) ), I've seen some go for as high as 6.6M C$, leaving you with 3.4M C$ for the formidable/passable defender, which is probably about right too...

FM

[FrogMan]

dola, from the formidable and up transfer thread:

Zenón Labayen (7749557)
23 years, solid form, healthy
A controversial person who is tranquil and upright.
Has poor experience and weak leadership abilities.


Speciality: Powerful

Nationality: España
Total Skill Index (TSI): 11 380
Wage: 3 439 US$/week including 20% Bonus
Owner: Rochester Roosters
Warnings: 0


Stamina: excellent Goaltending: disastrous
Playmaking: brilliant Passing: solid
Winger: wretched Defending: wretched
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: weak

Deadline: 9/13/2004 at 18.41

Asking price: 2 800 000 US$
currently on the market for 5.6M C$ :)

FM

[portnoise]

Heey, I saw that guy. :-)

Just listed Olgerts... not the ideal time of day, but will have maximal time next week to put the "new" team together before Sunday. And if anyone needs a brilliant defender... check the transfer thread.

[sterlingice]

It looks like you're in good shape for trainees. As nice as it would be to have a formidable playmaker, you've already got a couple of guys who can serve that purpose, provided they have good stamina. I'd move Revivo into the starting lineup at offensive central defender for now and groom Carpenter for that job in the future. If you're looking to save cash, you're not hurting your team doing that and it keeps your defense very strong.

Then again, provided Olgerts sells, you'll have a free spot since I'm guessing you run a 4-4-2 for league but either a 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 for fixtures/cup to maximize with 9 trainees. So, if you want, you could go get a new exc/form playmaker with solid+ defending to fill that new spot and move him immediately into your starting lineup to boost your midfield.

But I think the big thing to think about then is that you'll have $4M Canadian to play with and where will that most help your team? Sven's a pretty good striker, putting up 4 stars (still, he's 28 and will need to be replaced relatively soon). But on the other side, you've had a pair of 3-star guys. So here's a little crazy idea:

* Buy a good striker to help augment your attack
* Have your B Team run a 4-4-2 until the end of next year's cup to make for a better run and save up a little more cash
* Then get your 9th trainee with the cash you got from the cup run and promotion

SI

[portnoise]

SI-- acutally, I often play a 3-5-2. I sacrifice some training and defense to make up for a weaker midfield and offense. So I don't carry 9 trainees; I carry 8, and selling Olgerts drops me down to 7, so I need to buy at least one guy to replace him. With a stronger midfield, I'd be more willing to go to 4-4-2 all the time, which would let me train 9 guys...but that means buying TWO trainees.

Still, I like your suggestion. I'm thinking about striker vs. prospect and short term vs. long term. How good a striker will I be able to buy with the 3-4M I have left after buying the midfielder? Will I be able to buy a better one down the road? Plus, the more money I spend on the striker, the less I have to restock the training program, even if that's only with 1 person until the end of the cup run.

On the other hand, how much winning can I reasonably expect to do in III without upgrading my attack? And, along the same lines, how much money can I expect to make and how good a (striker/prospect) can I expect to be able to buy?

Got until mid-week to think about it. What do you think? These are the decisions that make the game so good... :-)

[sterlingice]

Unfortunately, I can't help you much with specifics from this point on (especially considering I already can't add to 8 ;) ). You can go find for yourself what kind of striker that'll get you. As for how much you can win in Div III, which is the better choice in the long run, etc. Well, that I can't answer.

SI

[portnoise]

First purchase:

Keith Holden (5026231)
24 years, passable form, healthy
A pleasant guy who is calm and upright.
Has weak experience and inadequate leadership abilities.

Nationality: USA
Total Skill Index (TSI): 17 060
Wage: 11 344 C$/week including 20% Bonus
Owner: Walk-In Special
Warnings: 0

Stamina: excellent Goaltending: disastrous
Playmaking: brilliant Passing: solid
Winger: weak Defending: wretched
Scoring: wretched Set Pieces: solid

Picked him up out of Indonesia this morning for 7.1M Canadian...thought I was going to lose him because HT kept pushing the deadline back, but no one bid while I took the dog to the vet. :-) Liked him for SP and because his TSI is well above most brilliant/solids, while his price was not.

[Alf]

There is a World Class / inad player on sale for $3.3M (US Dollars) on the French market

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Giacomo Belle (12126086) http://www7.hattrick.org/Common/images/bookmark_16x16.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/Common/bookmarks.asp?action=AddConfirm&BookmarkTypeID=2&ObjectID=12126086)
21 years, solid form, healthy </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=5>I speak Deutsch & Français! (http://www7.hattrick.org/Common/playerDetails.asp?PlayerID=12126086&ShowPlayerComment=true)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>A pleasant guy who is balanced and honest.
Has poor experience and weak leadership abilities.


Speciality: Technical

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Nationality: </TD><TD vAlign=top>Schweiz (http://www7.hattrick.org/Common/menu.asp?action=changeLeagueSystem&leagueSystemID=46) </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap>Total Skill Index (TSI): </TD><TD vAlign=top>26 800</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Wage: </TD><TD vAlign=top>8 484 €/week including 20% Bonus </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Owner: </TD><TD vAlign=top>krazyCows [frfc] (http://www7.hattrick.org/Common/teamDetails.asp?teamID=9039) </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Warnings: </TD><TD vAlign=top>0 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Stamina: </TD><TD>excellent </TD><TD>Goaltending: </TD><TD>disastrous </TD></TR><TR><TD>Playmaking: </TD><TD>world class </TD><TD>Passing: </TD><TD>poor </TD></TR><TR><TD>Winger: </TD><TD>wretched </TD><TD>Defending: </TD><TD>inadequate </TD></TR><TR><TD>Scoring: </TD><TD>wretched </TD><TD>Set Pieces: </TD><TD>poor </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Still trainable in defense on Wednesdays. I would buy him if I had a little more money...

Deadline: 17-09-2004 at 17:00 http://www7.hattrick.org/Common/images/ht_clock_003_16.gif (http://www7.hattrick.org/Common/reminder.asp?SendDate=04-09-17 16:50&ReminderText=Giacomo++Belle+%2812126086%29%0D%0ADeadline+04%2D09%2D17+17%3A00) (HT Time)
Asking price: 3 300 000 €