Jimmy Swaggart is an idiot

[John Galt]

It scares me that people with influence still say this sort of thing:

"I'm trying to find the correct name for it . . . this utter absolute, asinine, idiotic stupidity of men marrying men. . . . I've never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry. And I'm gonna be blunt and plain; if one ever looks at me like that, I'm gonna kill him and tell God he died."

[sachmo71]

Hey, being gay is a choice, right? Simple!

[Butter]

Also ripped from the 80's dept.:

Maybe we could get Jim Bakker to weigh in as well. :p

[CamEdwards]

I'm not sure Jimmy Swaggart still has any real "influence", JohnGalt. And you're right... that's an absolutely idiotic comment to make.

[mattwakeman]

And I'm gonna be blunt and plain; if one ever looks at me like that, I'm gonna kill him and tell God he died."

Now I'm no religious expert (it kind of comes with the territory when you C of E) but surely god would know what you have done. Unless he is suggesting that god only listens to the 'right' sort of people...or maybe god is just nice and trusting like this. You can only imagine how overworked he is so when Jimmy walks in and says 'Yep...erm...he just died...of self-inflicted gunshot wounds....to his back' then god is cool with this...hmmm, scary...

[Bee]

sounds like Jimmy's got some repressed homosexual feelings to me...

[Cuckoo]

Jimmy Swaggert is an idiot and should not be taken as any representative of the religious population in the U.S. And I agree that the comment was idiotic. The thing about killing him and telling God he died is a somewhat popular phrase, however. I've heard it many times. It's a joke of sorts, although not a very good one.

[sachmo71]

Now I'm no religious expert (it kind of comes with the territory when you C of E) but surely god would know what you have done. Unless he is suggesting that god only listens to the 'right' sort of people...or maybe god is just nice and trusting like this. You can only imagine how overworked he is so when Jimmy walks in and says 'Yep...erm...he just died...of self-inflicted gunshot wounds....to his back' then god is cool with this...hmmm, scary...


If God knew everything that we did, Jimmy would have been struck down by a lightning bolt years ago!

[Ben E Lou]

I stopped reading at "people with influence..."

[Pumpy Tudors]

Jimmy Swaggart hangs out with hookers and makes streets get renamed. :(

[John Galt]

Well, from what I can tell, he still has quite an audience around the world (if not the US): www.jsm.org (of course this is his website).

Either way, he is a homophobic dumbass.

[Cuckoo]

Well, from what I can tell, he still has quite an audience around the world (if not the US): www.jsm.org (of course this is his website).

Either way, he is a homophobic dumbass.

Normally, I hate the word homophobic because it's used far too frequently to describe people who have moral objections to homosexuality, but you're absolutely right on with this one, I think. And he may have a large following, I honestly don't know, but I just hope that people realize that he's not representative of most Christians in my view.

[CamEdwards]

Well, from what I can tell, he still has quite an audience around the world (if not the US): www.jsm.org (of course this is his website).

Either way, he is a homophobic dumbass.

Audience doesn't equal influence. And yes, he's a homophobic dumbass. We got it already John.

[Subby]

I think his web site is actually Jism.com....

[SlapBone]

Jimmy Swaggart hangs out with hookers :(

The funny thing is, Jesus hung out with hookers as well. If Jesus 1st Appearance had been today, I'm sure many of his friends and followers would have been gay. This isn't saying that Jesus would approve of their lifestyle or even being being married, but he was not the type of person to turn people away or be rude to them (unless they were religious zealots).

This is who Jesus is. He said very clearly that he didn't come to earth for the people that thought their ticket to heaven was sewn up, but the people who needed what he was offering the most....the sinners.

I think in this case, Jimmy Swaggert falls clearly into the religious charlatan (read:Pharisee) camp.

My family has been deeply affected by this issue. While my family (an I to this day) have always been Christian, my older brother died of "The Virus" back in the mid-90s. I, nor any member of my family, would have ever acted like Mr. Swaggert did in the comments above.

I think, Jesus' message was clear..."Hate the sin, but not the sinner".

[heybrad]

I heard the clip on the radio this morning. It was even more frustrating to hear the crowd of people cheering him on.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Swaggert just don't get it and never has.

Christ hung out with the lowest of the low on the social scale. A tax collector, a fisherman and a prostitute among others. He turned these men and women into his disciples. These were people that were the posterchildren for sin. People that no one in their right mind would willfully associate with.

It really irks me that people can take the most basic essense of biblical scripture and completely ignore it.

[Senator]

Swaggart has a posse.

[Raiders Army]

Christ hung out with the lowest of the low on the social scale. A tax collector, a fisherman and a prostitute among others.
Can you explain this one to me? I'm not sure how the fisherman is the lowest of the low.

Yes the man is an idiot, but I think there are far more hate-worthy people out there. :)

[GrantDawg]

Sad, sad little man.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Can you explain this one to me? I'm not sure how the fisherman is the lowest of the low.

Yes the man is an idiot, but I think there are far more hate-worthy people out there. :)

Well you have to go back and consider the times, but a fisherman (and laymen in general) would be the equivalent on the social scale nowadays of a janitor.

No offense to any janitors here, just trying to explain. :)

Think Cliff Claven from Cheers.

[Raiders Army]

I get it now. But wouldn't they have had dudes who picked up donkey shit off the streets? Wouldn't they be lower than fishermen?

[SlapBone]

Can you explain this one to me? I'm not sure how the fisherman is the lowest of the low.

Yes the man is an idiot, but I think there are far more hate-worthy people out there. :)

You ever heard the phrase "curse like a sailor"?

I think, at least in biblical times, fisherman were regarded as the people with the least amount of social latitude. They were always stinking, their mouths ran non-stop, and they had no manners. Peter was the perfect picture of this social stereotype.

[John Galt]

Audience doesn't equal influence. And yes, he's a homophobic dumbass. We got it already John.

I would think having audience is exactly the same as having influence. Am I missing something?

[stevew]

Swaggart hasnt had serious audience with mainstream individuals in years.

[Ksyrup]

Well you have to go back and consider the times, but a fisherman (and laymen in general) would be the equivalent on the social scale nowadays of a janitor.
That's Aquatic Animal Retrieval Technician to you, sir!

[Glengoyne]

Swaggart has a posse.
That might be the saddest thing I've read in this thread. People still buy into this guy.

But really JG, you don't have to worry about Swaggart having any real credibility with the christian community at large.

[Buddy Grant]

We got it already John.
There must be some kind of serious forum technical error, because the obligatory rolleyes smiley did not show up in this post. Let me try it: :rolleyes:

[duckman]

There must be some kind of serious forum technical error, because the obligatory rolleyes smiley did not show up in this post. Let me try it: :rolleyes:
We get it, Buddy. You don't like homosexuals. :rolleyes:

[Senator]

That might be the saddest thing I've read in this thread. People still buy into this guy.

But really JG, you don't have to worry about Swaggart having any real credibility with the christian community at large.

Can you even possibly think I was serious?

[chinaski]

dont forget Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Sun Myung Moon!

[Tekneek]

Jimmy Swaggart is merely delivering the peaceful, tolerant, and loving message of Christianity.

[Buccaneer]

Jimmy Swaggart is merely delivering the peaceful, tolerant, and loving message of Christianity.
No he isn't but there are many, many who are. Why give credence to this guy and why pick out anything he says and display in a forum. Maybe someone(s) wants to prove that the message of Christ is bad? JG: stop being a stupid tabloid reporter and go find positive messages instead.

[Butter]

Maybe someone(s) wants to prove that the message of Christ is bad? JG: stop being a stupid tabloid reporter and go find positive messages instead.

Where was it said that he was trying to prove that the message was bad?

It is, but I didn't see that come through anywhere in this post.

[John Galt]

JG: stop being a stupid tabloid reporter and go find positive messages instead.

Coming from you (who epitomizes negativity), this is a very odd directive.

I find it strange that I post about a man who has said something ridiculously offensive, who has a TV show aired around the globe (although I admit I thought he had a larger influence in the US), and people attack me for it. I just don't understand. :(

[Butter]

But JG, don't you know... Christianity is under attack! :rolleyes:

And another for effect.... :rolleyes:

[Ben E Lou]

Coming from you (who epitomizes negativity), this is a very odd directive.

I find it strange that I post about a man who has said something ridiculously offensive, who has a TV show aired around the globe (although I admit I thought he had a larger influence in the US), and people attack me for it. I just don't understand. :(John:

Anyone who makes a comment that outrageous is only going to be taken seriously by those who are so hate-filled that they are beyond being swayed by any meaningful dialogue anyway. He has become a voice that is WAYYYY out on the fringe--and you know just as well as I do that the fringes are virtually unreachable by any sort of logical discourse.

[John Galt]

John:

Anyone who makes a comment that outrageous is only going to be taken seriously by those who are so hate-filled that they are beyond being swayed by any meaningful dialogue anyway. He has become a voice that is WAYYYY out on the fringe--and you know just as well as I do that the fringes are virtually unreachable by any sort of logical discourse.

I don't disagree with anything you said. As I said, I thought he had more influence in the US (because I'm not in touch with "mainstream" Christian speakers). With that being said, I posted not out of hope he could be reasoned with, but because I think non-Christians and Christians should condemn such things being said (and because I was sad that someone in this world uses a TV show to say such things).

[Ben E Lou]

I don't disagree with anything you said. As I said, I thought he had more influence in the US (because I'm not in touch with "mainstream" Christian speakers). With that being said, I posted not out of hope he could be reasoned with, but because I think non-Christians and Christians should condemn such things being said (and because I was sad that someone in this world uses a TV show to say such things).Fair enough, but I can see how many would view this thread as a waste of time. I do find it akin to posting; "David Duke is an idiot." Pick your hatemongerer and fill in the blank.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Where was it said that he was trying to prove that the message was bad?

It is, but I didn't see that come through anywhere in this post.

Convince me that to love one another is bad and I'll renounce his crusade immediately.

I give you 33 years. Begin.

[Tekneek]

No he isn't but there are many, many who are. Why give credence to this guy and why pick out anything he says and display in a forum. Maybe someone(s) wants to prove that the message of Christ is bad? JG: stop being a stupid tabloid reporter and go find positive messages instead.

I suppose Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell don't spread the message of Christianity either, eh? They say things that are just as bad.

[Senator]

hxxp://www.oliverwillis.com/node/view/660

[Abe Sargent]

I don't disagree with anything you said. As I said, I thought he had more influence in the US (because I'm not in touch with "mainstream" Christian speakers). With that being said, I posted not out of hope he could be reasoned with, but because I think non-Christians and Christians should condemn such things being said (and because I was sad that someone in this world uses a TV show to say such things).


John, if it makes you feel better, as an ordained minister, I condemn it.

-Anxiety

[John Galt]

hxxp://www.oliverwillis.com/node/view/660

I'm afraid to look at the link - is it Swaggart's posse?

[John Galt]

John, if it makes you feel better, as an ordained minister, I condemn it.

-Anxiety

It does.

[Senator]

I'm afraid to look at the link - is it Swaggart's posse?

I guess so.

[John Galt]

I guess so.

Now that I've looked I'm sorely disappointed. Somebody, show me a posse, please!

[Ben E Lou]

Somebody, show me a posse, please! ;)
http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/castaway2k3/lewis0011.jpg
http://www.younglifenorthlake.com/ccr04/CrookedCreek1_0157.JPG

[Glengoyne]

Can you even possibly think I was serious?
Well he did apparently have a crowd cheering him on.....I was stretching it a bit.

[Buccaneer]

Coming from you (who epitomizes negativity), this is a very odd directive.

I find it strange that I post about a man who has said something ridiculously offensive, who has a TV show aired around the globe (although I admit I thought he had a larger influence in the US), and people attack me for it. I just don't understand. :(
Once again, you miss the point. It's not about me being negative (most of the time) or positive (occassionally), but of highlighting those who are truly loving and caring for others as servants of Christ. You only choose to specifically, in a thread, to highlight one bad apple. But not once have you looked at the thousands of servants and the positive work they are doing. Such an example is this one http://www.compassion.com/sponsordonor/features/ldpstories/053104.htm
But perhaps such a testimony doesn't fit your agenda?

[CamEdwards]

BTW, Swaggart's offered the same kind of half-assed apology that Dan Rather offered the other day. I tend to think it would be wonderful for five dozen or so gay couples to attend church with Swaggart on Sunday, and sit through the service holding hands. :)

Here's the story:

Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart apologized Wednesday for saying in a televised worship service that he would kill any gay man who looked at him romantically.

A complaint was filed with a Canadian broadcasting group, and Swaggart said his Baton Rouge-based Jimmy Swaggart Ministries has received complaints from gay groups over the remarks made on the Sept. 12 telecast.

In the broadcast, Swaggart was discussing his opposition to gay marriage when he said "I've never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry."

"And I'm going to be blunt and plain: If one ever looks at me like that, I'm going to kill him and tell God he died," Swaggart said to laughter and applause from the congregation.

On Wednesday, Swaggart said he has jokingly used the expression "killing someone and telling God he died" thousands of times, about all sorts of people. He said the expression is figurative and not meant to harm.

"It's a humorous statement that doesn't mean anything. You can't lie to God -- it's ridiculous," Swaggart told The Associated Press. "If it's an insult, I certainly didn't think it was, but if they are offended, then I certainly offer an apology."

Audio recordings of the Sept. 12 statements have circulated on gay-themed Web sites.

One complaint was sent to the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, a self-regulating industry group that enforces broadcast standards, after a Toronto television station broadcast the service, said Ann Mainville-Neeson, the group's executive director.

Cheryl Jacques, head of the Washington, D.C.-based Human Rights Campaign, which represents homosexuals, bisexuals and transgendered people, said Swaggart should preach equality for all Americans.

"Apologies don't discourage violence -- action does. We hope that he takes action," Jacques said. "His language only encourages an environment where hate crimes occur."

Swaggart was a popular television evangelist during the 1980s until a 1987 sex scandal involving a prostitute that he met in a seedy New Orleans motel. Swaggart never confessed to anything more than an unspecified sin. A few years later, he was stopped by police while driving in California with a suspected prostitute in his car.

[John Galt]

Once again, you miss the point. It's not about me being negative (most of the time) or positive (occassionally), but of highlighting those who are truly loving and caring for others as servants of Christ. You only choose to specifically, in a thread, to highlight one bad apple. But not once have you looked at the thousands of servants and the positive work they are doing. Such an example is this one http://www.compassion.com/sponsordonor/features/ldpstories/053104.htm
But perhaps such a testimony doesn't fit your agenda?

I think it is you who is missing the point. I post about a guy who says something offensive and who should be condemned. I make no mention of condemning christianity or christians. I say nothing about how christians don't do good deeds as well.

And what do you think my agenda is? I am not like some on this board who condemn religion per se. I have defended faith in several threads (I'm sure you could ask revrew and he'll remember). I do, however, attack any organization that discriminates against gays. The fact that you see that as an attack on your faith speaks more of you than of me.

[JasonC23]

"Killing someone and telling God he died"...wow, he's right, that's so hilarious. I can't wait for the Jimmy Swaggert comedy tour.

[Pumpy Tudors]

The minor league baseball team in New Orleans has to play on Airline Drive (instead of Airline Highway) because of people like Jimmy Swaggart. :(

[Ksyrup]

Slightly off track, but on the topic of charlatans, is Paul Crouch and TBN.

Here are some excerpts from an article about him and his network:



Preachers who pass the hat while praising the Lord have long been the stuff of ridicule in film and fiction. But for Crouch and his Orange County-based television ministry, God's economy of giving is no laughing matter. It brings a rich bounty, year after year.

Crouch has used a doctrine called the "prosperity gospel (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/p00.html#prosperity)" to underwrite a worldwide broadcasting network and a life of luxury for himself and his family.

For at least a century, preachers have plied the notion that dropping money in the collection plate will bring blessings from God — material as well as spiritual. But Crouch, through inspired salesmanship and advanced telecommunications technology, has converted this timeworn creed into a potent financial engine.

.....

The prosperity gospel is rooted in the idea that God wants Christians to prosper and that believers have the right to ask him for financial gifts. TBN has woven this notion into its round-the-clock programming as well as the thousands of fund-raising letters it mails every day.

During one telethon, Crouch, 70, told viewers that if they did their part to advance the Kingdom of God — such as by donating money to TBN — they should not be shy about asking God for a reward.

"If my heart really, honestly desires a nice Cadillac … would there be something terribly wrong with me saying, 'Lord, it is the desire of my heart to have a nice car … and I'll use it for your glory?' " Crouch asked. "I think I could do that and in time, as I walked in obedience with God, I believe I'd have it."

Other preachers who appear on the network offer variations on the theme that God appreciates wealth and likes to share it. One of them, John Avanzini, once told viewers that Jesus, despite his humble image, was a man of means.

"John 19 tells us that Jesus wore designer clothes," Avanzini said, referring to the purple robe that Christ's tormentors wrapped around him before the Crucifixion. "I mean, you didn't get the stuff he wore off the rack…. No, this was custom stuff. It was the kind of garment that kings and rich merchants wore."

TBN viewers are told that if they don't reap a windfall despite their donations, they must be doing something to "block God's blessing" — most likely, not giving enough.

Crouch has particularly stern words for those who are not giving at all.

"If you have been healed or saved or blessed through TBN and have not contributed … you are robbing God and will lose your reward in heaven," he said during a 1997 telecast.

A central element of the prosperity gospel is that no one is too poor or too indebted to donate. Bishop Clarence McClendon, a preacher whose show "Take It By Force" appears on TBN, told viewers in March that God had asked him to deliver a message to those in financial difficulty:

They should "sow a seed" by using their credit cards to make donations. In return, the Lord would see to it that the balances would be paid off within 30 days.

"Get Jesus on that credit card!" McClendon said.

-----------------------------------


Yikes!

My favorite part is the quote about buying the Cadillac. Especially when I compared it to a part of the song Mission by King's X ("What's the mission of the preacher man?"), which goes:

bless god! the more i think about it the more i think i was preaching the truth i went down to the cadillac agency and one hour later i drove out a new cadillac hallelujah say praise the lord bless god i'm gonna drive that cadillac down here and get it dusty and dirty and use it for god hallelujah! thank you jesus


Also, to tie this back into the "gay" storyline, Crouch apparently paid off a former male employee Michael Jackson-style back in the early 90's, who threatened to expose their relationship. Apparently, the guy is trying to sell a manuscript which details the encounter - despite the settlement agreement's confidentiality provisions.

These people are all scum of the earth.

[Tekneek]

"John 19 tells us that Jesus wore designer clothes," Avanzini said, referring to the purple robe that Christ's tormentors wrapped around him before the Crucifixion. "I mean, you didn't get the stuff he wore off the rack…. No, this was custom stuff. It was the kind of garment that kings and rich merchants wore."

These people are predators. It is amazing that they will arrest eBay scammers, but these people get to continue going out there everyday with their con game.

[Buccaneer]

For at least a century, preachers have plied the notion that dropping money in the collection plate will bring blessings from God — material as well as spiritual.
Wrong and very short-sighted. The sale of indulgences have been going for many, many centuries.

Where your treasure is, lies your heart.

[RendeR]

Once again, you miss the point. It's not about me being negative (most of the time) or positive (occassionally), but of highlighting those who are truly loving and caring for others as servants of Christ. You only choose to specifically, in a thread, to highlight one bad apple. But not once have you looked at the thousands of servants and the positive work they are doing. Such an example is this one http://www.compassion.com/sponsordonor/features/ldpstories/053104.htm
But perhaps such a testimony doesn't fit your agenda?


You ever heard the phrase "one rotten apple spoils the bushel"?

it applies, very well to this. is Christianity bad? no, the ideals it espouses have very positive connotations.

Are MANY people in leadership roles in the Christian Faith bad? You better believe it. There are hundreds of people, just like swaggert and falwell and the other big name TV Evangelists across this country alone, let alone across the surface of the world.

This thread wasn't about debunking christianity, it was about pointing out just how far wrong MANY so called Christians have gone from their own so called "faith"

You want to know why we don't post threads about the good, kind, loving people in the world?

because THATS what everyone should be doing, we shouldn't NEED to point it out, it should be the norm, not the exception.

Swaggert and all those losers like him who feed off the very real beliefs and feelings of their followings are the exceptions that we should be weeding OUT of the gene pool.

[RendeR]

These people are predators. It is amazing that they will arrest eBay scammers, but these people get to continue going out there everyday with their con game.


Actually under the hate crimes legislation his comments, since they were transmitted world wide could be construed as a hate attack against homosexuals. Where's the DA, I want him arrested for violating FCC regs.


it'll never happen of course, because the government bodies are well ensconced in the purse strings of the Christian Right.....


I don't like Kerry, but he's gotta be a huge step up administration wise.....

[Axxon]

Wrong and very short-sighted. The sale of indulgences have been going for many, many centuries.

Where your treasure is, lies your heart.

Short sighted sure, but wrong?

Many, many centuries are AT LEAST a century right?

[Abe Sargent]

RendeR, I feel the need to respond to this as quickly as possible. There are times when we agree, like with the child with the piercings in school suspension, and there are times where we see the same thing and walk away with completely different responses.

As a Christian, I condemn false prophetry. I condomn and disown any person who uses Christianity merely for their own gain, whether that be power or wealth.

Where we diagree is how widespread you see the fault, whereas I do not. My father is a Baptist minister, while I am a minister and in a Ministerial association. Combining my youth along with my cirrent associations, I must say that I could probably name 500 ordained ministers off the top of my head that I personally know. Of those leaders, how many would I say are corrupted? How many are truly Christians?

Only God knows, obviously. However, based on what I know and knew, I'd say less than 1%. I can only think of three bad ministers in the bunch.

Now, I am more than happy to admit that maybe some were good actors, maybe some were unaware of the real reasons they were minsters, but the overwhelming majority of church leaders are good, godly people.

They are also sinners. We all are. No man is perfect. That's basic Biblical Doctrine 101.

The reason that you may see so many fakes, is because the huslers and charlatans go the the radio and TV in order to deliver their "Gospel of Greed." There is a reason that I give a good sum of my tithe to the Trinity Foundation, a non-profit, non-demonational Chrisitan organization that exposes these con men (it also publishes The Door magazine and "God Talk" on Comedy Central's The Daily Show).

I feel that one of the most important activities that Christians should be engaged in is the discrediting of false prophets who use Christianity as a means to an often financial end.

I do not believe that Swaggert and his fellow cohorts in spiritual crime are part of The Church of God. They twist Biblical scripture to line their pocketbooks, all the while giving honest Christians a bad name.

Note that not every televangelist appears to be bad. I really like that young minister in Texas who broadcasts his weekly sermon to his congregation every Sunday on several cable channels. He looks like he's 24, but he speaks with the wisdom of ages. I love him. So I wanted to get that out of the way.

I consider him the Ed Hochuli of televangelists (in order to bring this back to football). Most referees suck, but Ed is brilliant. Most televangelist suck, but this Texan guy is brilliant.






You ever heard the phrase "one rotten apple spoils the bushel"?

it applies, very well to this. is Christianity bad? no, the ideals it espouses have very positive connotations.

Are MANY people in leadership roles in the Christian Faith bad? You better believe it. There are hundreds of people, just like swaggert and falwell and the other big name TV Evangelists across this country alone, let alone across the surface of the world.

This thread wasn't about debunking christianity, it was about pointing out just how far wrong MANY so called Christians have gone from their own so called "faith"

You want to know why we don't post threads about the good, kind, loving people in the world?

because THATS what everyone should be doing, we shouldn't NEED to point it out, it should be the norm, not the exception.

Swaggert and all those losers like him who feed off the very real beliefs and feelings of their followings are the exceptions that we should be weeding OUT of the gene pool.



-Anxiety

[RendeR]

I understand you completely, and I admit my first comment makes it sound like they make all ministers bad, they do not, but notice I was intentionally vauge on how many bad apples there are. I said MANY, and that can be taken in a lot of ways.

How many is too many? 1 is too many when their actions are the likes of those listed above. You even said you know at least 3 out of 500. 1% of the toatal population of ordained ministers in teh christian faith is going to add up to at least a 4, possibly a 5 digit number.

Is that MANY?

I think its too freaking many.

I don't believe that the ethical and moral ideals of christianity are bad, I don't believe that all those preaching are bad, but when you look at how many are fleecing the public under the christian banner, even you have to admit, its a stain on the religion as a whole.

[Buccaneer]

Short sighted sure, but wrong?

Many, many centuries are AT LEAST a century right?
Yes, but you have to admit that it applies that this is more or less a modern phenomenon (esp. targeting televangelists).

[Buccaneer]

I understand you completely, and I admit my first comment makes it sound like they make all ministers bad, they do not, but notice I was intentionally vauge on how many bad apples there are. I said MANY, and that can be taken in a lot of ways.

How many is too many? 1 is too many when their actions are the likes of those listed above. You even said you know at least 3 out of 500. 1% of the toatal population of ordained ministers in teh christian faith is going to add up to at least a 4, possibly a 5 digit number.

Is that MANY?

I think its too freaking many.

I don't believe that the ethical and moral ideals of christianity are bad, I don't believe that all those preaching are bad, but when you look at how many are fleecing the public under the christian banner, even you have to admit, its a stain on the religion as a whole.
Do you hold any other human institutions (inspired by God or not) to such a high ideal?

Jesus said that many will hate you for believing in Him.

[Tekneek]

Do you hold any other human institutions (inspired by God or not) to such a high ideal?

Jesus said that many will hate you for believing in Him.

Are you saying that those who are speaking for God and thusly wielding a strong influence in the lives of those worshiping with them should be held to no higher standard of behavior and ethics than the guy picking up my trash every week? They are held to a high standard because of what they do and the damage that can be caused if they act out. How much tolerance would people be shown who joke about killing religious leaders? Would them making a half-assed apology be considered acceptable? I expect not. If they had a TV show, or movies coming out, huge national movements to boycott them would be launched immediately. A simple, "They are human and make mistakes" might not be accepted by many.