I hereby renounce my status as a Yankee fan

[John Galt]

I grew up in the Washington DC area. I lived in the city and around the city, but always on the NOVA side. As a child I went to Orioles games in Memorial Stadium (what a dump). The fans were apathetic and the team was boring. However, the visiting team captured my imagination. I loved Reggie Jackson (in hindsight, I have no idea why). I came to cheer for the Yankees during the lean years. I grew up rooting for Donny Baseball and hating King George. I wanted nothing more than for the Yankees to win the World Series. When they finally won, I was beyond happy. And I've enjoyed the run since. I have rooted for the Yankees almost my whole life and I have no regrets.

However, something more wonderful has finally happened. A team has come to my hometown. As much as I have rooted for the Yankees over the years, I've always said that if a team came to DC, they would be my favorite. And now that day has come.

The Yankees have given me a great ride, but now I support the Washington Grays.

[Young Drachma]

Go Grays!

[JeeberD]

Congrats on the wise decision!

[rkmsuf]

You should go over to Yankee stadium, get ahold of one of those World Series trophies and drive around the parking lot with it tied to your bumper as you shout disparaging comments through a bull horn out the car window.

[The_herd]

One less Yankee fan makes the world a better place.

[gottimd]

One less Yankee fan makes the world a better place.

Can I get an Amen to that?

[DaddyTorgo]

AMEN!

[scooper]

Wow, the exact opposite of a band wagoner. Good luck to you.

[gottimd]

Can I get ONE more Amen?

[rkmsuf]

He's still considered a threat. You'll never completely get the Yankee out of him.

[Young Drachma]

That Grays petition online had like 300 signatures earlier this week. Then it was up to 600, now they're at 829. Talk about appreciating lots of free press. I think with the mayor saying what he did, it might force the hand of the new ownership to shirk using Senators - especially since they'll need to pay to use that, where Grays would be free.

[Bomber]

Bandwagoner.

[Young Drachma]

They wasted no time (http://shop.mlb.com/searchHandler/index.jsp?searchId=5355874851&sGroup=MLB&keywords=washington&clickid=topnav_search_txt)


Plenty of stuff for sale on the dcbaseball.com site at MLB

[Bomber]

I might be being an idiot, but where does this Grays thing come from, the Negro Leagues? I really like the idea of resurrecting the Senators.

[Young Drachma]

Yes, comes from the Negro Leagues. Learn more about them, <a href="http://www.rememberthegrays.org">here</a>

[JeeberD]

Oooh...a Senators Moonlight Graham jersey would be friggin' cool...

[spleen1015]

Senators has already failed twice. That's give them a new name.

Grays sounds good to me.

John Galt, it is good to see you return from the dark side.

[Blackadar]

AMEN BROTHER!

[CamEdwards]

finally, something else JohnGalt and I agree on. Go Grays!

[Bomber]

I don't know how much of a Yankees fan you could have been. They could put another baseball team in my backyard, and while I would go for the games I would never consider them my team.

[John Galt]

I don't know how much of a Yankees fan you could have been. They could put another baseball team in my backyard, and while I would go for the games I would never consider them my team.

There is a big difference between having a team come to your town and being a DC baseball fan. My whole life I wanted a team in DC, but since there was none, I found a different team to cheer for. I doubt anyone who knows me would say I wasn't a hardcore Yankee fan (I have remarked on several occassions that Yankee stadium is by far the most beautiful cathedral on Earth). With that being said, having a team in DC changes everything. I was part of a city that was teased with a baseball team for decades. And now that we finally have one, I'm rooting for them.

[Maple Leafs]

I believe that a fan is allowed to switch sides when their hometown gets a team. However, please don't become some annoying Yankee basher now. My city (Ottawa) is crawling with former Leaf fans who now like to pretend they never rooted for Toronto. It's very sad, especially since Toronto wins all the important matchups between the two "rivals" now.

The lesson: Treat your old team with respect, or else the sports gods will take their revenge.

[John Galt]

I believe that a fan is allowed to switch sides when their hometown gets a team. However, please don't become some annoying Yankee basher now. My city (Ottawa) is crawling with former Leaf fans who now like to pretend they never rooted for Toronto. It's very sad, especially since Toronto wins all the important matchups between the two "rivals" now.

The lesson: Treat your old team with respect, or else the sports gods will take their revenge.

Those are wise words, but I would add one caveat for Yankee fans. Ex-Yankee fans should be allowed to mock and abuse King George because that is what they did as Yankee fans.

[sterlingice]

Yes, comes from the Negro Leagues. Learn more about them, here (http://www.rememberthegrays.org)
I can't get all that behind their museum at the stadium as we already have a wonderful museum here in KC to honor the Negro Leagues (shameless plug: http://www.nlbm.com/ ). But I think a team named the Grays would be great.

SI

[Draft Dodger]

I believe that a fan is allowed to switch sides when their hometown gets a team. However, please don't become some annoying Yankee basher now. My city (Ottawa) is crawling with former Leaf fans who now like to pretend they never rooted for Toronto. It's very sad, especially since Toronto wins all the important matchups between the two "rivals" now.

The lesson: Treat your old team with respect, or else the sports gods will take their revenge.

it's true - when I lived in the area (long before the Sens came around), almost everyone was a diehard Leafs fan, with a smattering of Habs fans here and there. Weird now that Toronto has become their biggest rival (I own a Sens jersey and a Leafs jersey, so I've got ALL my bases covered there).

is the Grays name official yet? I really like the sound of that.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Their nickname is the Grays?

[ISiddiqui]

Actually I wonder about all this Senators stuff, the baseball team in Washington was named the Washington Nationals for a vast majority of their years in D.C. (over 50 years since they were founded).

[John Galt]

Their nickname is the Grays?

No. But a lot of us are hoping it will be. And because of some words by the Mayor, there is a growing push for the name.

[Glengoyne]

I have been hoping for a return of the Senators, but the Grays would be just as great.

[Desnudo]

Hopefully they won't stink as badly as their predecessors.

[SunDancer]

For some reason, I find the Washington Grays alittle dumb. Not many people will know what "Grays" would mean, and would be hard to sell logos/appreal with a nickname. I think they should start a new name, its a new team in a new era.

[The_herd]

For some reason, I find the Washington Grays alittle dumb. Not many people will know what "Grays" would mean, and would be hard to sell logos/appreal with a nickname. I think they should start a new name, its a new team in a new era.

I like it a lot more than some of the new team names that are being used. Especially in the NHL. If people don't know what it means then they can blame their own ignorance.

[Buccaneer]

I like the Nationals, which was they were called in the press back them, and they will be playing in the NL. I don't like the H. Grays - too Jim Crow, like the Black Sox.

[Booj]

I miss the Expos...

... but go Grays (or whatever they'll be called)

[Young Drachma]

For some reason, I find the Washington Grays alittle dumb. Not many people will know what "Grays" would mean, and would be hard to sell logos/appreal with a nickname. I think they should start a new name, its a new team in a new era.

No dumber than naming them the Senators. What with DC having their own Senators and all. Sure, the Senators live there. But they really don't. And say what you want, this ain't America's team. It's DC's...they're paying for it.

And the sentiment locally is - no Senators - because they don't have any representation in the Senate. Locally among the leadership in the city and others who have bent over backwards to faciliate this deal when many naysayers said that D.C. didn't have the right "demographics" to have major league baseball. Ouch.

I think that's a fair expectation, so media or not..its doubtful they'll be the Senators.

[SackAttack]

I like the Nationals, which was they were called in the press back them, and they will be playing in the NL. I don't like the H. Grays - too Jim Crow, like the Black Sox.

The Black Sox had nothing to do with Jim Crow. It had to do with the fact that, y'know, 9 guys were banned from baseball for either agreeing to fix games, or knowing about the fix and saying nothing. White Sox, Black Sox, get it? It's a dirty mark on the team's history.

[Bee]

Name them after one of the worst teams ever..the Senators, or name them after one of the best ever...the Grays.

I'll go with the Grays.

[Young Drachma]

I like the Nationals, which was they were called in the press back them, and they will be playing in the NL. I don't like the H. Grays - too Jim Crow, like the Black Sox.

Too Jim Crow? Then what is the Nationals/Senators name? There is no way they can name this team Nationals/Senators after what the old team represented to this city - and after Griffith moved the team to Minneapolis in part because he didn't want to play black players.

I think that'd be a slap in the face to the people of D.C. Just doesn't make any sense. The name "Grays" wouldn't play well in all of America - nor would naming a team after a negro league team (Though the Royals came the closest to doing it..after the KC Monarchs) but I think in a city where the majority of the population is black, its not just about race, but the first two teams certainly didn't cater to them, the third one will have to, if it wants to survive long-term.

This name does that and you wait and see how those new jerseys sell like hotcakes. People will learn what it means and it'll be one of the best things baseball has done in a long time.

The only other thing they'd need to do is retire the name of the Expos and their records. But that won't happen, since that's not baseball precedent to do it.

But after how they've treated Montreal, I wish they'd start.

[Buccaneer]

Yes it is. Being called Black or Gray anything was a way of segregating the team even more from the White league. In other words, the 'black' version of the whiteys. Homage may sell in the short-term but fielding the best team possible - regardless of race or what they were - is the key for success. It would be a shame if the new Washington team becomes a modern-day Negro league team (via marketing) because of nostalgia, homage and socio-demographics. We shouldn't except this anymore than a team marketing their "whiteness". But in the end, I wouldn't support the National/Senators either for the same reason. Let them start anew without the digging up baggage from the past.

[Crapshoot]

Meh- I like the name- paying homage to a good cause.

[Samdari]

No. But a lot of us are hoping it will be. And because of some words by the Mayor, there is a growing push for the name.

I don't know who you are listening to John, but the mood I am feeling around here seems to be that the Mayor is making an ass of himself wanting to change the name of the Senators to the Grays. Yes - most of the population seems to think they have already been named the Senators.

I would not call the movement to name the team the Grays "growing." Its more like "Dead in the water."

[Shkspr]

Yes, that racist honky Anthony Williams should be thrown out of office by insulting the black community with his support of the segregationist name "Grays".

I really think you're arguing this one ass-backwards, Bucc.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

What colors would the Grays wear? :)

I like the name "Grays" and everything behind it. I really hope that a new name is not selected. It would be horrible to name a team after the flavor of the month like Toronto got with "Raptors." And considering the names that have been come up with lately, does anyone want to see the Washington Wild? Or another stupid name? To hell with the Rangers. They can keep the license to the name "Senators." Go Grays!

[Young Drachma]

I don't know who you are listening to John, but the mood I am feeling around here seems to be that the Mayor is making an ass of himself wanting to change the name of the Senators to the Grays. Yes - most of the population seems to think they have already been named the Senators.

I would not call the movement to name the team the Grays "growing." Its more like "Dead in the water."

The mayor, some columnist, City Council members who care, Negro League Baseball Museum President, a curator at the Smithsonian running the Remember the Grays campaign, nearly 1,000 signatures on a petition..hmm..yeah, no sentiment at all.

It's just running #2 on the name-the-team contest site, but nobody wants the name.

Let's just name them after Griffith's not-so-lovable losers and be done. :rolleyes:

[Young Drachma]

Yes it is. Being called Black or Gray anything was a way of segregating the team even more from the White league. In other words, the 'black' version of the whiteys. Homage may sell in the short-term but fielding the best team possible - regardless of race or what they were - is the key for success. It would be a shame if the new Washington team becomes a modern-day Negro league team (via marketing) because of nostalgia, homage and socio-demographics. We shouldn't except this anymore than a team marketing their "whiteness". But in the end, I wouldn't support the National/Senators either for the same reason. Let them start anew without the digging up baggage from the past.

Right, 'cuz all those other teams in the league have no real historical references to their past. Look, to talk about baseball is to talk about the past. It's to recognize that the NATIONAL PASTIME was once too an ugly reflection of what the rest of the country was doing.

It was an accepted fact. That's not ignored. But so many of the players on that Grays team, (who outdrew the Senators, no less) and other Negro League teams, are simply faded into memory except by die-hard baseball fans and maybe some history buffs. To hear people talk about the way this team played, is to listen to some crazy good stories.

We have major league teams named after all kinds of things....the only team that might even remotely have a claim to being close to this are the Royals, who I suspect were pulling one out of the book to recognize the old KC Monarchs of the Negro Leagues.

This would be taking that a step further. Not only would it be classy, it would be well overdue. Like it or not, baseball screwed up. America did too. Much of the lore is based on a falsehood that the best players were playing against each other. They weren't and many of the best players never got their shot.

It's a gesture, but the name has nothing to do with race. It's just the name of their uniform probably. Now if they were the Black Giants or something, then I'd understand why you'd take exception to the name.

But it has nothing to do with race, nor does the name have anything to do with the Confederacy. Though if you wanted to put the team in Virginia....

Anyway...I think your gripe is a bit off. But then, we'll see what they do when the name the club. I still strongly believe they'll go with history and sentiment on this one. Political pressure might force their hand and its not like baseball would not put the team in D.C. anyway, so the D.C. officials will have their say.

Senators won't happen. Grays will.

Though someone did suggest on another board to name them something patriotic - like the Eagles. I dunno how I feel about that, but hey...the Newark Eagles were a negro league team too. So, then you could be patriotic and pay homage to the Negro Leagues.

But its too late for that really. I think either Nats, Sens or Grays will win.

[Bee]

Hey John Galt...

Would you still change teams if they name the new DC team after Ronald Reagan? (Yes, there's now a movement to do just that) :D

[John Galt]

Hey John Galt...

Would you still change teams if they name the new DC team after Ronald Reagan? (Yes, there's now a movement to do just that) :D

Of course. But naming it after Reagan would be beyond stupid. Can't we at least keep politics out of baseball mascot names?

Here is Wilbon's article in the post about "Grays":

With D.C. Back in the Market, It's Time to Go Shopping for a Name

By Michael Wilbon

Thursday, September 30, 2004; Page D11


Baseball had returned to Washington, officially, for less than an hour yesterday afternoon and already you could hear the debate in earnest. Already there were Internet polls, pamphlets being distributed at the official announcement of the Expos' relocation to D.C. There was throwback gear everywhere, Walter Johnson jerseys I've never seen previously. Folks had come up with elaborate new logos and color schemes, most involving red-white-and-blue.

If you listened, and not particularly closely, you could hear the suggestions about a name for the team that play to Washington being the national seat of government, including the Deficits, the Filibusters, the Whigs, the Pundits and the Representatives (hey, how about a little equal time for the other house) which could be nicely shortened to the Reps.

You could hear a bunch of new suggestions that play off the new stadium location just off the Anacostia River, including the Eels, the Snakeheads, the River Rats and the River Dogs. Particularly when it comes to sports, folks think everything should be participatory now, even when most of the suggestions fall somewhere between fairly absurd and totally absurd.

There are only four reasonable choices for the name of the new Washington Baseball Club: Senators, Nationals (if they play in the National League), Americans (if they play in the American League) and Grays. That's it, that's the list. Anything else is a waste of time to even consider, even the Monuments. A poll on washingtonpost.com last night had "Senators" way out front, getting some 54 percent of the vote. "It'll come as no surprise to you that Senators sounds good to me," Chuck Hinton, the former Senators outfielder, said.

Native Washingtonian Jim Kimsey, whose business sense, common sense and influence were critical in attracting the team to the District, said: "Senators has a certain nostalgic component. The name needs to capture what the team means to the city. And it needs to be a very, very good alternative not to use Senators."

There might be only one very, very good alternative: Grays. Baseball, more than any other sport, sells nostalgia, from the retro ballparks that have popped up around the major leagues (and presumably will here, too, on the Anacostia waterfront) to throwback jerseys. And while there's arguing against Senators or Nationals from a historic standpoint, the name Grays qualifies historically, and has perhaps a more romantic link to Washington's baseball past.

The Senators, let's face it, were losers. Big losers. The franchise was contracted by the National League in 1900, left town for Minneapolis in 1960, bolted town again, for Texas, in 1971. The Senators had 11 straight losing seasons to start their American League history in 1901, then lost at least 100 games in each of their first four seasons as an expansion team in the early 1960s. Where do you think "First in War, First in Peace, last in the American League" as a depiction of Washington came from?

Only the Cubs, White Sox and Red Sox have been bigger losers historically than the Senators. Now, if the owners or whoever names this team want to embrace the cuddly loser identity, which the Cubs and Red Sox have capitalized on for years, then Senators is probably the way to go.

But if we're talking about grabbing hold of a name that symbolizes baseball strength while also connecting with tradition, Grays does that.

The Grays won nine straight Negro National League pennants when the team played here, from the late 1930s until 1950.

Not only was it probably the greatest Negro League franchise of all, but with apologies to Satchel Paige and the Kansas City Monarchs, it was the most glamorous of all the Negro League teams and at its height featured Josh Gibson and Buck Leonard. And if your first inclination is that a 15-year-old kid has never heard of Josh Gibson, chances are you're right . . . and he's never heard of Frank Howard either. I remember Sam Lacy, the great sportswriter for the Afro-American newspapers, telling me that one season in the late 1930s or early '40s, Gibson hit more home runs than the entire Senators lineup.

Look, team nicknames are selected nowadays to facilitate marketing.

And one of the huge dilemmas baseball faces across the country now is trying to appeal to a much-needed but recently lost market: African-American fans. There have been more than a few meetings on what to do about black folks' dwindling interest in baseball, as it increases to the point of saturation in pro basketball and football.

At his news conference yesterday, D.C. Mayor Anthony A. Williams said he preferred the name Grays in homage to the Negro League franchise.

It's not like the name Grays symbolizes anything bad to folks who aren't black. The first person I heard lobby for Grays was ESPN anchor Dan Patrick. Laura Meissner, handing out pamphlets yesterday titled "Bring the Grays Back to Washington," is a young white woman who is vice president of a group devoted to remembering the Grays. A team embracing Negro League history at its best might not work everywhere, but one would think it could work here, in the blackest city in America.

You want a flying start with jersey sales and nostalgic remembrances, and a city-wide feeling of inclusion, name the team the Grays and watch what happens. The team would appeal to such an expanded market.

When it comes to these nicknames, I'm a traditionalist. While I would never criticize Abe Pollin for renaming the Bullets the Wizards because he was displaying uncommon sensitivity (for an owner) to the gun violence that plagued D.C. in the early and mid-1990s, I hope he returns to Bullets at some point. These new alliterative names (Tennessee Titans) are fine, but Raptors and Wizards and these newfangled things that inspire visuals, motion and the like trend up for a while, then down.

It's a shame that the NFL didn't make the Colts leave the jersey, the name and all their records in Baltimore, which the league got right some years later when it told the Browns all such things belonged to Cleveland. The Jazz should be the name of the team playing in New Orleans, not the one playing in Salt Lake City. So you won't read any argument here against the Senators, because that name belongs to Washington, should the team choose to use it.

What's best about sports, particularly baseball, is that your team is connected to something that existed before now, to something so grand and perhaps so old you imagine it in black and white. And while Senators and all that the name conjures would be a fine choice, a safe choice that nobody here could denounce and most people would feel very good about, Grays might reflect that bit of imagination that connects Washington quite nicely to its baseball heritage. It would also signal that the future for this franchise on the field is going to be a hell of a lot more rewarding than its past.

[GrantDawg]

I think the Gray's would be a brilliant name. The Senator's may have been lovable losers, but the Gray's carries a history of winning while still giving that throw-back feel. Good name.

[ISiddiqui]

Wonder why Wilbon (and the rest of the media) continues to say the Senators lost all the those games early on... they didn't... the Nationals did. The name 'Senators' wasn't their official nickname until 1954, replacing the Nationals, which had been their offical nick for over 50 years.

IMO, that lends less credence to the 'Senators'. They should either be called the 'Nationals', the 'Greys', or something totally new.

[VPI97]

Naming the team the Grays would be like renaming the Braves as the Atlanta Crackers.

[GrantDawg]

Naming the team the Grays would be like renaming the Braves as the Atlanta Crackers.
Why? Can't follow that logic at all.

[VPI97]

Why? Can't follow that logic at all.They would both be an homage to local baseball history.

[GrantDawg]

They would both be an homage to local baseball history.
Yes, but the Braves have better history in Atlanta than the Crackers (or the Black Crackers for that matter). The Grays have better history in Washington.

[VPI97]

Yes, but the Braves have better history in Atlanta than the Crackers (or the Black Crackers for that matter). The Grays have better history in Washington.Yeah, but 'Braves' is an offensive name :)

[GrantDawg]

Yeah, but 'Braves' is an offensive name :)
The Cherokee nation does not think so, and that is where the name is from.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Looks like it'll be Nationals...

No word yet as to if they'll hire Wally Beckman.

------------------------------------------------------

From espn:

WASHINGTON -- The transplanted Expos might soon have a new name, though it's really an old name and probably not the one you think.

Because of the pressure to sell tickets, merchandise and sponsorships before the franchise is sold, Major League Baseball is expected to rename the Expos within the next two weeks, according to the Washington Times.

Though the team that left Washington for Texas after the 1971 season was officially named the Senators, for most of its history the team in the Nation's Capital was more often known as or familiarly referred to as the Nationals.

And, Nationals the new team apparently will be, fittingly because whereas the former Nats were "first in war, first in peace and last in the American League," the new Nationals will be in the National League.

Sources told the Times that Nationals is a near lock, ahead of Grays, historical name of the Negro League team in Washington, and Senators, following a process that involved focus groups, marketing executives and polling data.

However, baseball spokesman Rich Levin said reports that the Expos would be renamed the Nationals were premature. Levin said other names, such as the Senators, remain under consideration and that baseball still was conducting focus groups.

"We're about 10-15 days from having this done," team president Tony Tavares told the newspaper. "We're getting real close."

The team logo and uniform designs also are nearing completion, sources told the Times. Team colors will be red, white and blue, of course, although there's no indication which will be the primary color.

The clear aim is to put caps, shirts and other merchandise on sale for holiday shopping, which begins in less than three weeks.

[Buccaneer]

I would buy a Nationals cap.

[cuervo72]

ooooh, me too

[cuervo72]

dola - I'd prefer red as the primary uniform color, but with the Phillies in the division (with the same red/white/blue scheme) I wonder if it will be blue).

Hmm...can't connect to Dressed to the Nines at the moment...I was thinking something like the uniforms right before they moved after '71. Yeah, maybe they really *are* too much like the Phils' uniforms. I guess the Senators uniforms in the mid-late '60s weren't bad.

(I just love having Mark Okkonen's uniform book!)

[cuervo72]

Double dola:

1964 - http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/exhibits/online_exhibits/dressed_to_the_nines/detail_page.asp?fileName=al_1964_washington.gif&Entryid=1046

1968 - http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/exhibits/online_exhibits/dressed_to_the_nines/detail_page.asp?fileName=al_1968_washington.gif&Entryid=1126


I'd actually wanted to use this template to make some uniforms for Page 2 - they have a 'uniform watch' and were asking for input - but never got around to it (I've been doing this for the FOBL).

[cuervo72]

Triple dola, and blatant plug:

http://www.thefobl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15832

I've done 33 of the 36 teams, Ayr being the latest. I cannot take credit for the actual logos of course...a certain somebody else was responsible for those.

[Young Drachma]

Looks like it'll be Nationals...

No word yet as to if they'll hire Wally Beckman.

------------------------------------------------------

From espn:

WASHINGTON -- The transplanted Expos might soon have a new name, though it's really an old name and probably not the one you think.

Because of the pressure to sell tickets, merchandise and sponsorships before the franchise is sold, Major League Baseball is expected to rename the Expos within the next two weeks, according to the Washington Times.

Though the team that left Washington for Texas after the 1971 season was officially named the Senators, for most of its history the team in the Nation's Capital was more often known as or familiarly referred to as the Nationals.

And, Nationals the new team apparently will be, fittingly because whereas the former Nats were "first in war, first in peace and last in the American League," the new Nationals will be in the National League.

Sources told the Times that Nationals is a near lock, ahead of Grays, historical name of the Negro League team in Washington, and Senators, following a process that involved focus groups, marketing executives and polling data.

However, baseball spokesman Rich Levin said reports that the Expos would be renamed the Nationals were premature. Levin said other names, such as the Senators, remain under consideration and that baseball still was conducting focus groups.

"We're about 10-15 days from having this done," team president Tony Tavares told the newspaper. "We're getting real close."

The team logo and uniform designs also are nearing completion, sources told the Times. Team colors will be red, white and blue, of course, although there's no indication which will be the primary color.

The clear aim is to put caps, shirts and other merchandise on sale for holiday shopping, which begins in less than three weeks.


Figures, Major League Baseball has never been known to be smart. Let's recycle the old name, because we can easily get the uniforms that are already produced as nostalgia.

Grr...Unless they're trying to let the new owners name the team the Grays, when they buy it. Hmm...