What is sad about the Bush and Kerry speeches.

[Cringer]

They are only words. Coming together and uniting my ass. They can talk all they want, you will still have conservatives running around throwing this in everyone's face as they already are (including on this board). And you will have Kerry people holding a grudge.....speeches mean nothing, actions do. Bush claimed to unite people before, has not happened yet.

[rkmsuf]

What should they do then? Play Twister?

[Fritz]

LEFT FOOT GREEN!

[MrBug708]

Hokey Pokey is better

[Warhammer]

I think a lot of the poison in the air was due to how 2000 went down. Dems thought they had been cheated, and the Dems in the Senate instituted the supermajority system to ensure nothing would get done. Heck, for a while, I thought Tom Daschele was the Anti-Christ.

That said, I think the main reason the Repubs have been gloating so much is all the abuse that they take from the Dems. Go to anyone of a number of web boards, and you see Dems calling Repubs mindless for voting for Bush, and that they are unenlightened, etc. When they win, they feel like giving it back in measure.

That said, I think we really need to move away from fringe politics and move towards the center. However, given the current political landscape, I do not see how any change is going to take place.

I think the Libertarians have the best shot of becoming a third party, but they need to find a way to run in congressional races first, then worry about the big prize.

[JonInMiddleGA]

They are only words. Coming together and uniting my ass. They can talk all they want, you will still have conservatives running around throwing this in everyone's face as they already are (including on this board). And you will have Kerry people holding a grudge.....speeches mean nothing, actions do. Bush claimed to unite people before, has not happened yet.

That's why I, alas, am resigned to never being President.

No question, both sides were saying pretty much the same thing on that note because they felt like it's what they're supposed to say.

I prefer to keep the loathing aboveboard without all the b.s.

[rkmsuf]

I think the Libertarians have the best shot of becoming a third party, but they need to find a way to run in congressional races first, then worry about the big prize.

Nader can play Twister if he wants as well. Anymore than 3 though and it becomes a less intimate game.

[gottimd]

The more people, the more intimate. Who knows where those hands and feet will end up?

[rkmsuf]

The more people, the more intimate. Who knows where those hands and feet will end up?

Yeah but I think Nader would find it far more fulfilling knowing whose hand was where.

[gottimd]

Yeah but I think Nader would find it far more fulfilling knowing whose hand was where.

Don't be too sure of that. Its kind of like when you sit on your hand for awhile then you......

[rkmsuf]

Don't be too sure of that. Its kind of like when you sit on your hand for awhile then you......

The Stranger?

[gottimd]

The Stranger?
You are correct.

[gstelmack]

you will still have conservatives running around throwing this in everyone's face as they already are (including on this board).

I call BS. All I've seen here are people who can't believe anyone would vote for Bush, and those who did vote for him defending ourselves. Can you point me to more than, say, 2 gloat posts? That weren't in response to an attack from the other side?

[rkmsuf]

The "whoa is me" or the "we're doomed" post far outnumber the gloat post.

[gottimd]

Oh my god, Whoa is me! We're doomed!

[rkmsuf]

Oh my god, Whoa is me! We're doomed!

You need to bang Brooke Shields and all will be well.

[SirFozzie]

Ok.. here's the guy I want in 08 or 12.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the words of Barack Obama.

I stand here today, grateful for the diversity of my heritage, aware that my parents' dreams live on in my precious daughters. I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that, in no other country on earth, is my story even possible. Tonight, we gather to affirm the greatness of our nation, not because of the height of our skyscrapers, or the power of our military, or the size of our economy. Our pride is based on a very simple premise, summed up in a declaration made over two hundred years ago, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

That is the true genius of America, a faith in the simple dreams of its people, the insistence on small miracles. That we can tuck in our children at night and know they are fed and clothed and safe from harm. That we can say what we think, write what we think, without hearing a sudden knock on the door. That we can have an idea and start our own business without paying a bribe or hiring somebody's son. That we can participate in the political process without fear of retribution, and that our votes will be counted--or at least, most of the time.

This year, in this election, we are called to reaffirm our values and commitments, to hold them against a hard reality and see how we are measuring up, to the legacy of our forbearers, and the promise of future generations. And fellow Americans--Democrats, Republicans, Independents--I say to you tonight: we have more work to do. More to do for the workers I met in Galesburg, Illinois, who are losing their union jobs at the Maytag plant that's moving to Mexico, and now are having to compete with their own children for jobs that pay seven bucks an hour. More to do for the father I met who was losing his job and choking back tears, wondering how he would pay $4,500 a month for the drugs his son needs without the health benefits he counted on. More to do for the young woman in East St. Louis, and thousands more like her, who has the grades, has the drive, has the will, but doesn't have the money to go to college.

Don't get me wrong. The people I meet in small towns and big cities, in diners and office parks, they don't expect government to solve all their problems. They know they have to work hard to get ahead and they want to. Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you they don't want their tax money wasted by a welfare agency or the Pentagon. Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can't teach kids to learn. They know that parents have to parent, that children can't achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white. No, people don't expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all. They know we can do better. And they want that choice [...]

A belief that we are connected as one people. If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief--I am my brother's keeper, I am my sisters' keeper--that makes this country work. It's what allows us to pursue our individual dreams, yet still come together as a single American family. "E pluribus unum." Out of many, one.

Yet even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America--there's the United States of America. There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and have gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America [...]

In the end, that is God's greatest gift to us, the bedrock of this nation; the belief in things not seen; the belief that there are better days ahead. I believe we can give our middle class relief and provide working families with a road to opportunity. I believe we can provide jobs to the jobless, homes to the homeless, and reclaim young people in cities across America from violence and despair. I believe that as we stand on the crossroads of history, we can make the right choices, and meet the challenges that face us. America!

[rkmsuf]

He'll be sucked in by then.

[SirFozzie]

Hope not.

[rkmsuf]

It's easy when you are not actually running.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sounds great Fozzie.

Too bad I don't believe a fucking word that comes out of his mouth.

[Arles]

I think the democratic party needs to move towards Obama's words. Unfortunately, I think Obama will move more towards the democratic party.

[SirFozzie]

And that's because..

Nah.

Not going to fight with you Jon. I figure by now, I may be one of those guys you'd rather punch in the nose then share a drink with in Real Life, and will at least keep it civil with you here.

But let me ask this. Are you telling me that you only disagree with him because of his party afilliation?

[Gary Gorski]

This guy certainly seems to be a rising star in the political world. Interesting his use of God in his speech. I don't know much about him - is he religious and how does the democratic party feel about that?

Personally I feel that the dems need a more religious candidate to win - the 20% of voters who voted on moral issues in this election had to be an unexpected influence and had Kerry stayed true to Catholic morality (since he is Catholic) in terms of gay marriage and abortion (he probably could have just stopped at partial-birth abortion and not had to want to outlaw all abortion) he would have won the election.

[cthomer5000]

I'm sorry, but I think a lot of people will have a hard time taking Obama seriously when his wife introduced him:

"My baby daddy... Barack Obama!"

For me it was one of the most unintentionally hilarious political moments I've ever seen.

[rkmsuf]

Well see what Obama gets accomplished but it's easy to be a "star" and spin marvelous speeches when you have nothing to do with what's going on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Are you telling me that you only disagree with him because of his party afilliation?

That's not quite accurate, but probably not for off either. Not so much from a standpoint of disagreeing with him (as you said there) but rather from a standpoint of believing him, or trusting him farther than I could throw him.

I'll go back to the case I mentioned in another thread, where I celebrated a victory by a Democrat in a local race last night. I've spent 10 years in the same small town with this woman, I've observed the way she does her job, seen how she deals with people, and spent time around her away from the office as well. Those vantage points allow me, in spite of "the company she keeps", to believe strongly she was the better person for her office. We're talking "better X infinity squared" as a matter of fact.

Give me ten years of going to weddings & parties with Obama, give me a decade of close observation of his work, etc & so forth, and I might find him believable. All I know for sure about him right now is that he, as the old saying goes, "lays down with dogs", so it seems understandable that I might expect him to have some fleas.

[rkmsuf]

That's not quite accurate, but probably not for off either. Not so much from a standpoint of disagreeing with him (as you said there) but rather from a standpoint of believing him, or trusting him farther than I could throw him.

I'll go back to the case I mentioned in another thread, where I celebrated a victory by a Democrat in a local race last night. I've spent 10 years in the same small town with this woman, I've observed the way she does her job, seen how she deals with people, and spent time around her away from the office as well. Those vantage points allow me, in spite of "the company she keeps", to believe strongly she was the better person for her office. We're talking "better X infinity squared" as a matter of fact.

Give me ten years of going to weddings & parties with Obama, give me a decade of close observation of his work, etc & so forth, and I might find him believable. All I know for sure about him right now is that he, as the old saying goes, "lays down with dogs", so it seems understandable that I might expect him to have some fleas.

but under that thinking how can you believe anything other than that in which you can "touch and feel"?

[SirFozzie]

understandable?

from you, yes. I have dealt with you for a couple years.

For the values that 48-49% of the nation believe in (I'm sorry Jon, we're not Kool-Aid Drinkers, we actually have a brain and think for ourselves, or at least some of us do ;)) , no I'm sorry, I don't understand, and I'm pretty sure that I don't want to understand such a mindset that would automatically disqualify such a percentage of the nation from being decent folks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... that would automatically disqualify such a percentage of the nation from being decent folks.

Just because we have a history of finding ways to disagree & still walk away tolerating each other, I'm gonna try out a different version of the explanation/ answer I gave above. Remember now, my object is not to change your mind one bit, only to find a way to express what I'm trying to say in a way that is more understandable to someone on the other side.

Since I haven't seen Godwin's law invoked in at least 12 hours, I'm going to dig up the Nazi's for an example. And no, FTR, I'm not drawing a direct Democrat & Nazi comparison here, I'm intentionally grabbing the most extreme example that comes to mind to illustrate the point.

If somebody proclaims themself a member of the Nazi party, do you feel its reasonable to make certain assumptions about them, at least in the absence of any concrete evidence to the contrary? In other words, it might be at least theoretically possible (albeit absurdly unlikely) for someone to wholly support the state of Israel & still be an active member of the Nazi Party, but I probably wouldn't take them at their word. I have to see evidence of that claim before I believed "a fucking word that comes out of his mouth".

That's pretty much the case with Obama -- I know the company he keeps, that's the very first thing I know about him. And after seeing what his "friends" do, it seems unlikely to me that he'll be particularly different from them. Not impossible, but unlikely. Much as I told the local candidate I was talking about "the notion of me finding myself in the position of supporting a Democrat for office is one of the most unlikely things I can think of, but once in a while, that's how things work out".

Look, you should probably know that my parents are still "Yellow Dogs". They're decent enough folks, hell, they're really nice people. But they're also incredibly naive & don't particularly deal with change well. In their case, much like Zell Miller, I understand why their party affiliation is what it is. I love 'em ... but I also fervently hope & pray that they either snap out of it or stay as far away from elected office as possible.

[GrantDawg]

The "proof is in the pudding" with Obama. I hope he does well.

[Ksyrup]

That's the thing with being in one party and considering voting across party lines - I'm not so much worried about the candidate, but who he would fill his cabinet with and otherwise surround himself with in determining policy. Obama might be great - might say the right things, be a uniting force, a great speaker with charisma, etc. But if he's a Democrat, he's beholden to those who have put him in a position to be elected as, say, President in 2012. That means he must appoint people to policy-making positions who cut against the grain of what I believe, and that effectively limits his appeal as a candidate.

When you look at it from that perspective, it makes crossing political lines a difficult proposition for those of us who choose to stick by ideology as a defining factor in choosing who to vote for.

[SirFozzie]

*nods* I disagree with your viewpoint, but hell, it's a free country, and the explanation did help a little to show where you're coming from

One of the board's other Republicans (who can't log on right now to back me up) and I have been exchanging IM's over the last weeks of this campaign, and last night, after I offered congratulations that his guy won, and seemingly not only fair and square, by a decent margin, joked that him and I should go on tour and show that people who voted for the Democrat for president and the people who voted for the Republican for president can still have a civil discussion (trust me, one of us is AnybodyButBush, and the other one was so scared of Kerry becoming president he couldn't even vote for a third party candidate in a safe Kerry state JUST IN CASE it'd hurt Bush).

Now, one final line, and one good-natured joke to defuse the tension

I try not to fault people for their views, if they come by them honestly. I respect that. Every man is the sum of his experiences. I just want other people to understand that I come by my viewpoint the same way, with no malice or falsity, and ask them to try to respect that as well.

and now, for the joke. JOKE JOKE JOKE ALERT, just in case anyone thought I was serious.

See? SEE? SEE? Jon is a dirty flip flopper! :D

His words from his post:
Just because we have a history of finding ways to disagree & still walk away tolerating each other,

and his sig:
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
Gilbert K.Chesterton (1874-1936)

*grin*

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nicely played Foz, nicely played indeed. ;)

[SirFozzie]

*bows*

Thank ya, Mr. Jon.

[Buccaneer]

I, too, was pissed off at the speeches today. We are NOT "two Americas" or "divided in half" or some other shit like that. What are the two divisions? Reps and Dems? That's not two Americas. That's just two powerful political parties with many of its voters not really much different from each other. Besides, even if you buy that we are two Americas (where do you draw the line???), history has shown that to be a good thing. The greatest fear is that we become united and monolithic under a strong, charismatic leader.

No, we are not "two Americas" - we are many Americas with many diverse experiences, cultures and opinions.

[randal7]

Obama's rise to prominence is a fairly interesting story. The guy who was going to be the Dem. nominee was brought down when a history of domestic abuse was exposed. Then Obama's Rep. opponent falls to a kinky sex scandal that made national news, allowing Obama to walk to a win. Add in his featured speech at the convention and you have a guy who has risen from near-total obscurity to national prominence.

I caught part of one of his debates with Keyes. Obama is well-spoken and intelligent, and comes off as a guy you would like if you knew him. He seems to be taking moderate positions from what he said in the debate, although my understanding is his past history has been fairly left-leaning. Add in that he is black and he is probably Hillary's biggest obstacle for 2008. He strikes me as VERY electable.

[JasonC23]

This morning, my wife predicted that Obama will be Hillary's VP when she runs in 2008.

[BucDawg40]

This morning, my wife predicted that Obama will be Hillary's VP when she runs in 2008.

As in Independant who voted for Kerry, I hope your wife is wrong. There is no way that bigots in the south are ready to put that combo in the White House. The Dems need to come up with a ticket that is more palatable to the general public.

[panerd]

Hate to sound like Rush Limbaugh/McNabb here, but would any inexperienced politician like Obama be getting this much media hype if he wasn't black? Where's his experience?

He won a senate seat in Illinois (the same state that brought us Mosley-Braun) against Alan Keyes, who was brought in from Maryland. Keyes actually got like 30% of the vote. Fill me in on what this guy has done besides give a speech at the national convention. I am not saying that 10-15 years from now he won't be a major player, but president in 2008? He just doesn't have the experience.

[rkmsuf]

And his name kind of sounds like Osama.

[Ksyrup]

And his name kind of sounds like Osama.
And his first name kinda sounds like Iraq. :D

[rkmsuf]

Barach Obama Lin Badden 2008.

[Aylmar]

He managed to find an excellent speechwriter, that's for sure.

[Cringer]

I call BS. All I've seen here are people who can't believe anyone would vote for Bush, and those who did vote for him defending ourselves. Can you point me to more than, say, 2 gloat posts? That weren't in response to an attack from the other side?

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but as normal I was out of town working, left right after I started the thread.

In response to what you say, there have been many posts of which I do not feel like digging through everything over the last 3 days to quote, sorry I am lazy today.

But, just started today is this
:D gloating thread (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?t=31571)