The "Rooney Rule"

[BigJohn&TheLions]

So now Art Shell is going to "interview" for the job that will be offered to Nick Saban next week. I understand the concern for the overall lack of black head coaches in football, but isn't it worse to interview guys just because they are black when everybody knows that you aren't going to offer them the job?

I mean, the goal should be to hire the coach that is right for the team. Ideally, that coach would be hired for his coaching abilities and not because of the color of his skin. Why does this have to be such an issue when everybody knows that the job is going to Saban anyway? I don't recall any candidates for the Dallas gig other than Parcells, and who thinks that Bill should not have been the one of the first men considered for any coaching job if he were available? If I had my choice of Bill Parcells & Ray Rhodes, I'm going with Parcells. If I had my choice between Romeo Crenell & Rich Kotite however... Sorry Mr. Kotite, but we've decided to go in a different direction.

Who was interviewed for the Steelers gig when Rooney hired Cowher anyway? It would be interesting to see if Mr. Rooney is a hypocrite...

[ISiddiqui]

It's a really stupid rule. When you have Saban, does anyone with half a brain actually think you should interview others before you offer him the job?

[TLK]

MILLEN NEVER PAID FINE?


The recent discussions regarding the Dolphins' potential violation of the "Rooney Rule" has rekindled talk of the last and only violation that drew the wrath of the NFL.



But, as it turns out, the league office might have been all bark, and no bite.



In 2003, Lions CEO Matt Millen (but not the team itself) was fined $200,000 for hiring Steve Mariucci without interviewing any black candidates.



In Millen's case, he tried to comply. But because everyone knew that Mooch was Millen's man after Marty Moronwig was fired the day after the Super Bowl, no African-American candidates would agree to be interviewed.



We're now hearing that the NFL never tried to enforce the fine and that, as a result, Millen never has paid it.



The fine raised eyebrows because it wasn't levied against the team (and thus the Ford family) directly. Since the Fords' other joint spends a lot of coin on advertising for NFL broadcasts, the thinking was that the league knew not to go chomping on the hand that feeds the cow that the league owners have been milking for the last 40-plus years.



But the Fords went ballistic anyway, as outlined in our July 2003 archives (http://www.profootballtalk.com/7-16-03to7-31-03archives.htm). And amid rumblings that Lions owner William Clay Ford would merely reimburse Millen for the amount of the fine, perhaps the league opted to just let it be.



from Pro Football Talk

[Ragone]

This is why i've always felt affirmative action is reverse racism.. Lets say a Purple guy(purple being minority) and a pink guy(pink being majority) apply for a job.. Mr Pink is highly skilled in the field the job calls for.. Mr. Purple isn't nearly as skilled, But since this is a company that is required to use affirmative action policies.. Mr purple gets the job.

I believe the most qualified person should get a job regardless of his/her race.. gender.. creed.. religion... etc, and i'm sure most people are the same way, alls thats going on now in the nfl is a circumvention of the rules.. Art shell rolls down to miami on a Token interview (aka a free paid vacation to miami) and the dolphins don't get a huge fine or lose draft picks..

[Tigercat]

This rule is even worsened when the guy you interview is Shell. Shell already has experience as a HC, and people already know him. He already has connections. This rule might be worth a damn if a few position coaches or OCs in the NFL who happen to be black get their first interview experience in this kind of instance and get to do some networking. But thats the kinda thing Art Shell doesn't really need.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

This is why i've always felt affirmative action is reverse racism.. Lets say a Purple guy(purple being minority) and a pink guy(pink being majority) apply for a job.. Mr Pink is highly skilled in the field the job calls for.. Mr. Purple isn't nearly as skilled, But since this is a company that is required to use affirmative action policies.. Mr purple gets the job.



Mr. Pink: Why am I Mr. Pink?
Joe: Cause you're a faggot, ok?
Mr. Pink: How about if I'm Mr. Purple? That sounds good to me, I'll be Mr. Purple.
Joe: You're not Mr. Purple. Some guy on some other job is Mr. Purple. You're Mr. Pink!
Mr. White: Who cares what your name is?
Mr. Pink: Yeah that's easy for you to say, you're Mr. White, you have a cool sounding name. Alright look if it's no big deal to be Mr. Pink, do you wanna trade?

[Hurst2112]

I don't get this...what's wrong with Rooney hiring Cowher? I'd rather have Cowher than Shell, Rhodes, Dungy, Green...any monority coach who has been around the NFL since the early 90s.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't get this...what's wrong with Rooney hiring Cowher? I'd rather have Cowher than Shell, Rhodes, Dungy, Green...any monority coach who has been around the NFL since the early 90s.

The question was whether minorities were seriously considered or interviewed when Cowher was hired.

[Hurst2112]

The question was whether minorities were seriously considered or interviewed when Cowher was hired.

oh, ok. why would they be back then? "Affirmative Action" as we know it wasn't an issue back then, especially in the NFL...i don't believe anyway.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

The question was whether minorities were seriously considered or interviewed when Cowher was hired.

Exactly. I don't question the hiring of Bill Cowher any more than I question the hiring of Lovie Smith. Smith is a good coach who could be a great one. Cowher is a great coach. Both men were the right man for the job at the right time. I'm just saying that I doubt that Rooney looked at Bill Cowher and thought "Maybe I should let this guy walk out of my office and interview some minority candidates so that it looks like I am being fair."

I wonder if anything would be said if a team went out and interviewed five potential coaches who all happened to be black. What would Rooney say then?

[ISiddiqui]

I remember there was also whining after the Jags hired Jack Del Rio by many who are big supporters of this rule. Saying Del Rio was not as qualified as the minority candidates out there... I wonder what those people are saying now? ;)

[BigJohn&TheLions]

oh, ok. why would they be back then? "Affirmative Action" as we know it wasn't an issue back then, especially in the NFL...i don't believe anyway.

So by this logic... the only reason to interview any potential coach who is not caucasian is due to "Affirmative Action?" Are you saying that there was not a single black coach worth taking a look at back then, but now you have to look at coaches based on not only their resume, but their skin color? Saying "I will interview at least two black coaches in my search" is as bad as saying "I will not hire a black man to coach this team." Hell, Vince Lombardi experienced racism (and was passed over for coaching positions) because he was Italian!

[Sharpieman]

I mean, the goal should be to hire the coach that is right for the team. Ideally, that coach would be hired for his coaching abilities and not because of the color of his skin.

Thats correct, thats why the "Rooney Rule" that might help out, last I checked, in the NFL African-American coaches severly underrepresented. Before, a lot of qualified black coaches weren't even getting interviewed. Look at Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis, it took way to much time for both of these guys to get interviewed.

If you still don't buy it or think that the rule is reverse racism, think of this. It doesn't hurt anyone if these black coaches get interviewed and don't get the job. It doesn't matter, so why complain about it.

[Hurst2112]

So by this logic... the only reason to interview any potential coach who is not caucasian is due to "Affirmative Action?" Are you saying that there was not a single black coach worth taking a look at back then, but now you have to look at coaches based on not only their resume, but their skin color? Saying "I will interview at least two black coaches in my search" is as bad as saying "I will not hire a black man to coach this team." Hell, Vince Lombardi experienced racism (and was passed over for coaching positions) because he was Italian!

I believe I didn't say anything of the sort. Again, I was asking ANOTHER question with a comment afterwards...that had nothing to do with the paragraph you wrote. In fact, I said after the comment something to the fact that I might not know the truth. Please don't make my comment into a bigger issue. Save that for somebody who really has a passion about this subject. Or, as they say, 'who really gives a F***".

Oh, and don't forget....ROCK ON!!!

[Sharpieman]

I remember there was also whining after the Jags hired Jack Del Rio by many who are big supporters of this rule. Saying Del Rio was not as qualified as the minority candidates out there... I wonder what those people are saying now? ;)
Whats your point? :rolleyes:

[BigJohn&TheLions]

I believe I didn't say anything of the sort. Again, I was asking ANOTHER question with a comment afterwards...that had nothing to do with the paragraph you wrote. In fact, I said after the comment something to the fact that I might not know the truth. Please don't make my comment into a bigger issue. Save that for somebody who really has a passion about this subject. Or, as they say, 'who really gives a F***".

Oh, and don't forget....ROCK ON!!!

I knew that you worded poorly comment your. I commented on it as if it was what you meant because I know there are people who actually think this way. Essentially, you gave me the opportunity to bitch and make what I thought was a good point while unable to sleep late on a Sat night due to a headcold...

[ISiddiqui]

Whats your point? :rolleyes:

My point is that the guy which was the whipping boy for non-minority hiring turned out to be a great hire. Perhaps Jacksonville wasn't doing the good old boy network hiring, but knew what they were doing?

[JW]

The rule is absurd. Minority head coaches will be hired on merit. It will happen. I don't recall there ever being a quota requiring teams to draft a black quarterback. And look at what has happened with black quarterbacks. That happened without some stupid rule. Merit will win out in the end over racism.

[Easy Mac]

Thats correct, thats why the "Rooney Rule" that might help out, last I checked, in the NFL African-American coaches severly underrepresented. Before, a lot of qualified black coaches weren't even getting interviewed. Look at Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis, it took way to much time for both of these guys to get interviewed.

If you still don't buy it or think that the rule is reverse racism, think of this. It doesn't hurt anyone if these black coaches get interviewed and don't get the job. It doesn't matter, so why complain about it.
Well, based on the numbers, black players make up too much of the NFL players. 65% of the NFL in 2001 was black, I haven't found more recent numbers, but seeing as how blacks make up 12% of the population, perhaps something should be done to help the qualified white players.

But I guess its ok to say that its somehow different, since its ok to think that blacks posses the physical skills whites don't have, but not ok to think whites have the analytical skills blacks don't.

[Shepp]

Who was interviewed for the Steelers gig when Rooney hired Cowher anyway? It would be interesting to see if Mr. Rooney is a hypocrite...

It has been a long time but if my memory serves correctly Mean Joe Greene was the defensive line coach for Pittsburgh at the time and I'm pretty sure he was a serious contender for the job.

[Bubba Wheels]

Mr. Pink: Why am I Mr. Pink?
Joe: Cause you're a faggot, ok?
Mr. Pink: How about if I'm Mr. Purple? That sounds good to me, I'll be Mr. Purple.
Joe: You're not Mr. Purple. Some guy on some other job is Mr. Purple. You're Mr. Pink!
Mr. White: Who cares what your name is?
Mr. Pink: Yeah that's easy for you to say, you're Mr. White, you have a cool sounding name. Alright look if it's no big deal to be Mr. Pink, do you wanna trade?

Yes, good movie, The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3. Walter Matthau. Your forgetting Mr. Green.

[Aylmar]

Who was interviewed for the Steelers gig when Rooney hired Cowher anyway? It would be interesting to see if Mr. Rooney is a hypocrite...

Mean Joe Greene was given serious consideration for the job. He was one of four finalists interviewed before the job finally went to Cowher...

Whoops...didn't see Shepp's reply....sorry to double up.

[judicial clerk]

That quote is not from 'The Taking of Pellam 1,2,3." It is from "Reservoir Dogs". Both good movies, though. Great ending for The Taking of Pellam 1,2,3.

[Fritz]

Thats correct, thats why the "Rooney Rule" that might help out, last I checked, in the NFL African-American coaches severly underrepresented. Before, a lot of qualified black coaches weren't even getting interviewed. Look at Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis, it took way to much time for both of these guys to get interviewed.

If you still don't buy it or think that the rule is reverse racism, think of this. It doesn't hurt anyone if these black coaches get interviewed and don't get the job. It doesn't matter, so why complain about it.

In Smith's first year as an NFL defensive coordinator with the Rams in 2001, he helped St. Louis return to the Super Bowl. New England downed the Rams on a last-second field goal.

The native of Big Sandy, Texas also worked five seasons with Tampa Bay as its linebackers coach. Smith spent 13 years at the collegiate level before joining the Buccaneers."

Doesn't seem like Lovie was held back too long.

Lewis

Idaho State LB Coach 1981-84
Long Beach State LB Coach 1985-86
New Mexico State LB COach 1987-1989
University of Pittsburgh 1990-1991
Steelers LB Coach 1992-1995
Ravens DC 1996-2001
Skins DC 2002
Bengals HC - 2003-2004

in 1996 the ravens were almost dead last in D rankings and 4-12
in 1997 the ravens were bottom half in d rankings and 6-9-1
in 1998 the ravens were bottom half in d rankings and 6-10
in 1999 the ravens were near the top of the D and 8-8
in 2000 the ravens were the top D and 12-4 (super bowl)
in 2001 the ravens were near the top D rankings and 10-6

So it is no shocker that Lewis was not really in play until 2001 for a HC job. The Buccs front office tried to hire him for 2002, but the owners wanted John Gruden. Lewis earned a job the next season.

[Fritz]

dola,

not trying to argue one way or the other about coaching opportunities or the interviewing rule. Just saying that it did not take Smith, and perhaps Lewis, "way to long" to get their shot.

[Gary Gorski]

If you still don't buy it or think that the rule is reverse racism, think of this. It doesn't hurt anyone if these black coaches get interviewed and don't get the job. It doesn't matter, so why complain about it.

Just out of curiosity how do you figure it doesn't hurt anyone? You don't think it hurts the culture or community of that minority group when NFL teams are forced to conduct a phony interview with a black coach knowing full well they aren't going to hire him? What about the pride of a culture or community? Does it feel good to know that you've been chosen for a sham interview and that the only role you're playing is to save the team a fine for hiring a white coach without "interviewing" a black coach?

I think it does hurt a black coach to take part in this sham. His name will be at the top of the rolodex for sure - but not because a NFL team is taking him seriously but because he is their way out of a fine. And where does this sham stop? If you're forced to interview a black candidate why aren't teams forced to interview a Hispanic or Asian candidate as well - or even a female candidate? And how long until the list of "have to interviews" grows longer? Or how long before there's a quota system in the league where x% of coaches and coordinators have to be of a minority class?

A scholarship/job/promotion is not given to a person who is the most qualified to receive it because he is black.

A scholarship/job/promotion is not given to a person who is the most qualified to receive it because he is white.

What is the difference other than the first one is called racism and the second affirmative action?

We need to promote equality in this country - not further racial descrimination. What happened in the past cannot be changed. We cannot undo the fact that at one time black people were slaves in this country but what can be done is to educate people that black people and other minority people are PEOPLE and not a separate class of people that should be treated differently and made to look like they need special treatment and handouts to succeed.

You know how more black coaches will get hired in the NFL? Because coaches like Tony Dungy and Marvin Lewis have had and will have success as coaches. How did they get a chance? Because someone who is educated and believes that everyone is equal gave them a chance because they were perceived to be the best man for the job - not because they were of a racial minority. Dungy, Lewis and others have and will succeed on their MERITS not on their race - THAT is the only thing that will open the eyes of someone in a hiring position that will not currently consider a black coach as a candidate. Forcing that person to interview a black coach only reinforces thier bigoted perception that a black coach is not as good as a white coach and needs special treatment.

[Klinglerware]

Gary, that was a great post. We can't undo the past, and someday people with be judged on their merits. But it still can't be denied, unfortunately, that there are people who won't judge other people fairly with a "blank-slate" ideal. I don't mean to single out Easy Mac's post, but the post's blanket assumption about black peoples' analytical skills does seem to indicate that work still needs to be done in getting people to judge others on their merits and not via prior assumptions.