What does team spirit really do?

[Qwikshot]

I was reading the rules, and I'm not sure how much of a poor team spirit affects performance. Anyone have any ideas, a percentage, an inkling, of what to expect?

Right now I have an irritated team spirit, I have to MOTS the next match, and then I am an underdog for my next cup match (but it's winnable if I MOTS-and he uses the same lineup)...by then I have a really bad team spirit but I play two doormat teams (assuming I play a really elite 4th round cup team, I may concede with a PIC).

I know I could go up to 10 sport psychologists, but I don't know how much they'll help (From what I've read they affect team confidence and spirit)...I could also use that one time boost by reducing training intensity (is that one time per team, or one time per season?)

I may have enough for a new coach by then, so I know that I'll possible get a better team spirit (I know that it doesn't clear out with a new coach acquisition).

Thanks

Qwikshot a.k.a. Jabberjaw

[Desnudo]

I'm assuming you know the difference it makes to your midfield rating and are asking if it as any other adverse impacts?

[Qwikshot]

I'm assuming you know the difference it makes to your midfield rating and are asking if it as any other adverse impacts?

Nope...completely clueless.

[finkenst]

Nope...completely clueless.
it radically affects your midfield performance.

digging up some numbers.
..
...

[finkenst]

dola

i appears to lose about 2 levels of midfield from poor(high) to poor (v.low) with the same lineup.

[Qwikshot]

dola

i appears to lose about 2 levels of midfield from poor(high) to poor (v.low) with the same lineup.

I was looking all over hattrick about this...guess I'll take the risk...this is the worst part of having a disasterous leadership coach.

[Havok]

I was looking all over hattrick about this...guess I'll take the risk...this is the worst part of having a disasterous leadership coach.


man, i told you like 6-8 months ago how much TS means to your midfield when you asked how you should upgrade your team.

it D R A S T I C A L L Y affects midfield preformance. TS managment is the most important coaching aspect of HT if you ask me.

[Desnudo]

man, i told you like 6-8 months ago how much TS means to your midfield when you asked how you should upgrade your team.

it D R A S T I C A L L Y affects midfield preformance. TS managment is the most important coaching aspect of HT if you ask me.

I agree, I did a half-assed job of it last season and it likely was the reason I demoted. The difference in even one level of TS to your midfield is like a home-away advantage.

[FrogMan]

it D R A S T I C A L L Y affects midfield preformance. TS managment is the most important coaching aspect of HT if you ask me.
what he said. Picking your PICs may mean staying in a league you don't belong in, even if only barely. Having a disastrous leadership coach should never happen, it makes working to improve your team spirit useless...

FM

[Qwikshot]

My coach was poor leadership many moons ago, always managed to survive. I think it would've been a waste to upgrade my coach seasons before because I didn't have a shot at getting the title. This year, it seems more probable that I can survive for a few more weeks before having to switch.

[Havok]

My coach was poor leadership many moons ago, always managed to survive. I think it would've been a waste to upgrade my coach seasons before because I didn't have a shot at getting the title. This year, it seems more probable that I can survive for a few more weeks before having to switch.


poor leadership is still terrible, when your out of the cup and you can no longer pic 2 games a week. The 'lowest' leadership coach i'd have is inadequate. And when i talk about TS managment, i don't mean keeping your TS around 'composed'. I mean keeping your TS around delirious(or higher) on gameday's.

Your in a tough divison and if you ever wanna get out of it you gotta 'out manage' and out 'team build' the other guys in your divison. Trust me im in the same situation in div. IV.

[Masked]

The 'lowest' leadership coach i'd have is inadequate. And when i talk about TS managment, i don't mean keeping your TS around 'composed'. I mean keeping your TS around delirious(or higher) on gameday's.

So what do you think about my coach that has weak leadership? http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[KevinNU7]

Qwikshot, here's a little info on PIC/Normal/MOTS

When you PIC a match the match engine looks at your current TS and sets your TS for the match at two levels lower for the match. After the match your TS will rise 2 levels higher from where it was before the match.

Here's a list of TS from Top to Bottom:

Paradise on Earth!
walking on clouds
delirious
satisfied
content
calm
composed
irritated
furious
murderous
like the Cold War

So for your first Cup match of the year the TS starts are composed. If you PIC the match the TS the match engine says your team is out is Furious, but after the match your TS jumps two levels above composed to content!

If you play a match on Normal the TS the match engine uses is your actual TS. And after the match your TS doesn't change (there is no flucation up or down).

If you MOTS, the TS the match engine uses for the game is two levels higher then your actual TS. But after the MOTS your TS drops in half. So if you started the season with a MOTS your composed TS would be seen as content by the match engine but after the match your TS would drop to furious!

TS management is key!

For example I PICed my first Cup match with my Top Team and got a weak (very high) midfield on the road. My TS after the match went to content and by the time my league game came it had dropped down to calm. For my first league match I decided to Normal (on the road) and my midfield came in at passable (high)!

So for the Cup match the match engine had rated my TS as furious (down to from composed) and for the league match the match egnine rated my TS as calm. This three level difference in TS caused my midfield rating to jump from weak (very high) to passable (high), that is huge!!!!!

MOTS a bunch of games in a row is a very short term view and your TS will be so bad afterwards it will be difficult to compete with anyone.

[sterlingice]

poor leadership is still terrible, when your out of the cup and you can no longer pic 2 games a week. The 'lowest' leadership coach i'd have is inadequate. And when i talk about TS managment, i don't mean keeping your TS around 'composed'. I mean keeping your TS around delirious(or higher) on gameday's.

Your in a tough divison and if you ever wanna get out of it you gotta 'out manage' and out 'team build' the other guys in your divison. Trust me im in the same situation in div. IV.
I'll say this, though. At the lower levels, the $1M ($200K vs $1.2M in fixed prices) difference between a solid/poor and solid/inad coach is better spent on other expenses such as players, arena, etc- team building. Having that solid trainer and a bunch of cash is still much more important than having maybe a passable trainer and better team spirit.

What it does mean, however, as I had a solid/poor-wretched coach for most of my time in Div V, is that you don't get to go around MotS'ing more than maybe once a season. And not in this insane two times in two weeks that Qwik is talking about. Basically, your training program has to be better than your seriesmates and you'll eventually out talent then. Then when you start selling off some players, then you can look into getting a better coach.

That, or go out and buy a cheap passable experience/passable leadership guy and at every instance you can afford to, play him during cup games and fixtures where he can get experience and hope he pops in the next year so you can spend $700K and make him a coach and hope you have the cash by then.

SI

[Mr. Wednesday]

My viewpoint on upgrading my coach is, I'll go for the nice leadership when I'm in a position to do more than land in a qualifier. Even with wretched leadership I can play a qualifier at content, with a mix of PICs and normals in the cup and mostly PICs with the odd normal thrown in afterwards.

[Qwikshot]

poor leadership is still terrible, when your out of the cup and you can no longer pic 2 games a week. The 'lowest' leadership coach i'd have is inadequate. And when i talk about TS managment, i don't mean keeping your TS around 'composed'. I mean keeping your TS around delirious(or higher) on gameday's.

Your in a tough divison and if you ever wanna get out of it you gotta 'out manage' and out 'team build' the other guys in your divison. Trust me im in the same situation in div. IV.

Yeah, but I was interested in having a solid coach to set up a good training group...that is where the money is (though with this poor economy you never know). Having a good leadership coach is a luxury...so I can't wait when I actually get a coach with good leadership...I'll be in the pole position then.

[Qwikshot]

As for MOTSing twice, I don't think it's insane IF I maximize my money standing enough to acquire a solid/inadequate coach (I'm at 250k, need about 500k more). I have at least four league matches where I can PIC, and the rest I can normal. I won't be in good shape, but I'll be competitve. I've been playing for almost two years at angry or irritated, I adjust.

[rickJ]

My viewpoint on upgrading my coach is, I'll go for the nice leadership when I'm in a position to do more than land in a qualifier. Even with wretched leadership I can play a qualifier at content, with a mix of PICs and normals in the cup and mostly PICs with the odd normal thrown in afterwards. That's my view as well, I'm still using my coach from the old system at inad LS, (and have a solid/solid future coach at defender) but I'm waiting until I'm ready to challenge for the title and beyond before I'm going to change coaches.

[Havok]

So what do you think about my coach that has weak leadership? http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

they are for teams in weakass div IV's who get 3 straight solid youth pulls then a double passable 17 year old in week 2 :p :p

[Havok]

Yeah, but I was interested in having a solid coach to set up a good training group...that is where the money is (though with this poor economy you never know). Having a good leadership coach is a luxury...so I can't wait when I actually get a coach with good leadership...I'll be in the pole position then.


its not really a luxury at all, you just gotta think ahead. Go buy a solid defender with passable leadership and passable experiance. Then just make sure he gets some experiance through out the season and by the time he's on your team for 1 full season, he should have solid exp. Then all you need is 600k and you have yourself a good coach for upwards of 3 seasons.

Hattrick = Marathon, not a sprint

[Qwikshot]

its not really a luxury at all, you just gotta think ahead. Go buy a solid defender with passable leadership and passable experiance. Then just make sure he gets some experiance through out the season and by the time he's on your team for 1 full season, he should have solid exp. Then all you need is 600k and you have yourself a good coach for upwards of 3 seasons.

Hattrick = Marathon, not a sprint

EXACTLY, Marthon, not a sprint what is the point of getting a coach who's going to lose leadership skills before you are ready to actually compete?!? I invested in two 17 year old strikers, upgrading the stadium, and trading for a top midfielder...that's where my money went. Frankly, I don't care that my coach is solid/disasterous, cos he's still a solid, he's still training my strikers...really I'm in a good spot, when Ihave cash to upgrade, I'll deal with it...there are teams in my series that even at a decent spirit I would be the underdog.

[Qwikshot]

EXACTLY, Marthon, not a sprint what is the point of getting a coach who's going to lose leadership skills before you are ready to actually compete?!? I invested in two 17 year old strikers, upgrading the stadium, and trading for a top midfielder...that's where my money went. Frankly, I don't care that my coach is solid/disasterous, cos he's still a solid, he's still training my strikers...really I'm in a good spot, when Ihave cash to upgrade, I'll deal with it...there are teams in my series that even at a decent spirit I would be the underdog.

I already have a future coach, he's solid/inadequate. I have two guys that are passable/passable right now (they are starters).

[Havok]

I'll say this, though. At the lower levels, the $1M ($200K vs $1.2M in fixed prices) difference between a solid/poor and solid/inad coach is better spent on other expenses such as players, arena, etc- team building. Having that solid trainer and a bunch of cash is still much more important than having maybe a passable trainer and better team spirit.

What it does mean, however, as I had a solid/poor-wretched coach for most of my time in Div V, is that you don't get to go around MotS'ing more than maybe once a season. And not in this insane two times in two weeks that Qwik is talking about. Basically, your training program has to be better than your seriesmates and you'll eventually out talent then. Then when you start selling off some players, then you can look into getting a better coach.

That, or go out and buy a cheap passable experience/passable leadership guy and at every instance you can afford to, play him during cup games and fixtures where he can get experience and hope he pops in the next year so you can spend $700K and make him a coach and hope you have the cash by then.

SI

double dola

i agree for newer teams it is harder, but Qwik has had his team for as long as me i think. He could have easily upgraded his coach twice by now if he did the same exact thing i've(and plenty of other people have done) done by making your own coaches by buying players with passable exp and getting them to solid exp. And don't tell me his attendance is lower cause he's still in V, the last 2 seasons i've made practically nothing from attendance thanks to the 'smart fans' and im doing just fine(and i make almost no money from youth pulls either).

I promise if he had a better leadership coach and managed his TS better(not MOTSing all the time) he would have made much more money from attendance and finished a few places higher in his divison every year. If he doesn't figure out how to use TS, he will be in the divison forever.

I hope im not coming off like a dick or anything, just trying to be honest/help.

[Qwikshot]

double dola

i agree for newer teams it is harder, but Qwik has had his team for as long as me i think. He could have easily upgraded his coach twice by now if he did the same exact thing i've(and plenty of other people have done) done by making your own coaches by buying players with passable exp and getting them to solid exp. And don't tell me his attendance is lower cause he's still in V, the last 2 seasons i've made practically nothing from attendance thanks to the 'smart fans' and im doing just fine(and i make almost no money from youth pulls either).

I promise if he had a better leadership coach and managed his TS better(not MOTSing all the time) he would have made much more money from attendance and finished a few places higher in his divison every year. If he doesn't figure out how to use TS, he will be in the divison forever.

I hope im not coming off like a dick or anything, just trying to be honest/help.


I don't MOTS all the time, this is the first season where I have managed it. I've generally played normal, and if I do MOTS it is at the end of the season during a relegation qualifier (love the extra week of training).

My series prior to this season never gave me the opportunity to win it. It's one of the toughest series in all of hattrick (placing 70th). I think that prior to Riddle's advancement, nobody had a chance. So I would've wasted 700k to 1million on a coach when team spirit was really unimportant because I had no chance to winning the series, better to pocket that cash on a recruit or stadium upgrade, then on a coach whose abilities will deteriorate.

I know how to use Team Spirit...I just wasn't sure of what the implications were to how it affects the team performance (I /knew/ it would be detrimental, just not to what degree).

I can't afford to buy a passable experience guy throw him in the lineup and win...right now I have 2 brilliant, one supernatural, and two outstanding PMs (one as a winger to mid, one as an offensive CD) to offset the potent midfields in my division. When the whole experience thing came into play I had already spent my cash on position players.

I don't consider myself a scholar of hattrick, I do ask probably some very inane or blatantly simplistic questions, but I know many here know the answers.

My team is fine. I'll adjust. I repeat though that the criticism of my lack of knowledge of how to use TS is incorrect, I know how to use it, I just was unsure on the affects on team performance.

[JFiz]

Do you have to only get to Solid Exp to turn a player into a coach? I thought it had to be excellent for some reason..

[Qwikshot]

Do you have to only get to Solid Exp to turn a player into a coach? I thought it had to be excellent for some reason..

I think you can use a passable experience guy, you just have to have them for 16 weeks.

[sterlingice]

You can use any level of experience above weak to turn into a coach. But if you're going to spend the cash to convert, go for a solid coach. Otherwise your cash is better spent on the $268K solid trainer/poor leadership coach as it's a very similar price to turn a passable coach into a passable trainer and solid training ability is much more important than team spirit.

SI

[JFiz]

So their experience level dictates the lvl of trainer that they are?

[hhiipp]

When you are converting a player into a coach, yes the experience dictates what level of trainer they can be. However, if you convert a solid experience passable leadership guy to your coach and then you continue to play your coach and he pops to excellent experience, he won't suddenly become an excellent coach, he'll just have more experience.

[kingfc22]

If you play a match on Normal the TS the match engine uses is your actual TS. And after the match your TS doesn't change (there is no flucation up or down).
I was under the impression that even if you played NORMAL your TS changes.

[sterlingice]

I was under the impression that even if you played NORMAL your TS changes.
It does. It moves toward one of the C's (composed, I think), so if you're high, it edges lower and if you're low, it edges higher.

SI

[rickJ]

double dola

i agree for newer teams it is harder, but Qwik has had his team for as long as me i think. He could have easily upgraded his coach twice by now if he did the same exact thing i've(and plenty of other people have done) done by making your own coaches by buying players with passable exp and getting them to solid exp. And don't tell me his attendance is lower cause he's still in V, the last 2 seasons i've made practically nothing from attendance thanks to the 'smart fans' and im doing just fine(and i make almost no money from youth pulls either).

I promise if he had a better leadership coach and managed his TS better(not MOTSing all the time) he would have made much more money from attendance and finished a few places higher in his divison every year. If he doesn't figure out how to use TS, he will be in the divison forever.
.
I'd like to see some numbers behind your logic, being able to do something is much different then it being the efficient thing to do. Also I think it's actually less difficult if the person has a weaker/newer team, easier to find non-overpriced pass/solid players that can play on your team without much sacrifice on the field or lost re-sale value, the real costs of internal recruiting.

Anyway, the expenses involved in the plan you're talking about.

Expenses
Purchasing future coach: ~$200k for someone to start: 1.8mil
Playing/waiting/gaining exp costs (weaker play, additional salary, etc): ~___
Conversion costs: ~$700k
Lost sales revenue (if he has skill): ~$200k starter: 1.5mil

Going for a solid coach I can almost gurantee that that'll run over 1-1.5mil US$, and I wouldn't be surprised if it costs many players more then if they went the external route (especially teams that turn their star player into a coach). So while the individual costs look worthwhile do the totals add up to be really worth that better LS level? that might give you a few more wins or slightly better league finish.

At times I can see it working out, but rarely if ever in a lower series or times when the difference isn't the difference between a 2nd or 7th place finish.

[Havok]

I'd like to see some numbers behind your logic, being able to do something is much different then it being the efficient thing to do. Also I think it's actually less difficult if the person has a weaker/newer team, easier to find non-overpriced pass/solid players that can play on your team without much sacrifice on the field or lost re-sale value, the real costs of internal recruiting.

Anyway, the expenses involved in the plan you're talking about.

Expenses
Purchasing future coach: ~$200k for someone to start: 1.8mil
Playing/waiting/gaining exp costs (weaker play, additional salary, etc): ~___
Conversion costs: ~$700k
Lost sales revenue (if he has skill): ~$200k starter: 1.5mil

Going for a solid coach I can almost gurantee that that'll run over 1-1.5mil US$, and I wouldn't be surprised if it costs many players more then if they went the external route (especially teams that turn their star player into a coach). So while the individual costs look worthwhile do the totals add up to be really worth that better LS level? that might give you a few more wins or slightly better league finish.

At times I can see it working out, but rarely if ever in a lower series or times when the difference isn't the difference between a 2nd or 7th place finish.


Im not 100% sure what your getting at here. but i''ll try to answer as best i can.

I bought this guy for 180k 9 months ago.....

Jerko Milas (10614309)
32 years, solid form, healthy
I speak Hrvatski!

A sympathetic guy who is tranquil and honest.
Has solid experience and passable leadership abilities.

Nationality: Hrvatska
Total Skill Index (TSI): 900
Wage: 792 US$/week including 20% Bonus
Owner: Maniacal Misfitz
Warnings: 0


Stamina: excellent Goaltending: wretched
Playmaking: inadequate Passing: wretched
Winger: inadequate Defending: solid
Scoring: inadequate Set Pieces: solid


at the time he had passable experiance and puts up 3 to 3 1/2 stars as a CD and upwards of 4 stars as a defensive wingback. Over the course of the last few seasons, depending on form, he's started alot of games for me. He actually still plays alot as my 3rd defender. And even if he wasn't a starter, he'd get some experiance in cup games aswell.

Now thats 180k to buy him and if i switch him to a coach right now thats 733k. So 913k total for a solid coach with passable leadership and is still able to play for me(and be a very good back-up shortly). Now you can add in his 'salary' over the past 9 months if you want to argue your point, but he's been 'almost' a full-time starter for me over the 9 months so its not like he's sitting around and eating up my money, he's earning his pay.

Now, if i wanted to 'externally' recruit a solid coach with passable leadership, that would cost me 1 758 500 milllon.

Now 1 758 500 million?? or 913k + a starter/very good back-up??? Its simple math. And im not gonna keep arguing the importance of TS, if you don't believe me or wanna downplay it for arguement's sake thats fine. But go ask any HT veteran around here how important TS is(Billy, TP, FryDog, etc...) and lemme know what they say. I bet none of them can remember the last time they had TS below delirious. Its even more important for a team like Qwik's who runs a 3-4-3 and is already at a midfield disadvantage to the 3-5-2 players/midfield trainers in his divison.

My plan now is to go buy another passable defender(maybe solid) with passable exp/leadership and only play him in my earley cup games(should be able to start in the first 3 at least) and in friendly's. So over the next 3 seasons he should have no problem getting that 1 level of experiance.

Anyway, i can see Qwik is taking some offense to this so im not even gonna get into his divison or where he could/would have finished with better TS. Wasn't trying to piss anyone off, just trying to drive home the importance of TS.

[BillyNYC]

Since I've been referenced, I'll give my two cents :)

Handling spirit is more important on lower levels than higher ones. I don't worry about it all that much, although I replaced my coach in the offseason, when he dropped to weak.

Reasons for this are threefold:
1. Most upper level teams get to PIC in the Cup for the first half of the season or so. Anywhere from 4-8 weeks, depending on the luck of the draw. So spirit will be high regardless (assuming leadership's decent).

2. Who would I PIC? I got fortunate to manhandle Cyclones, but would I PIC him? No way. A team or two might've been weaker in II, but not such that a win was a sure thing. There's little opportunity to PIC in the league.

2a. Who would I MOTS? Should I MOTS Tombstone and lower spirit a ton and mess my team for Goons and KC? While PIC'ing has limited gain, the negatives of MOTS'ing are much more. Late in the season, there might be a MOTS. I average less than 1 MOTS a season. And that one is almost always the final week.

The first two reasons are the same for most teams. Maybe one team will PIC someone that another wouldn't, but it's fairly negligible. Maybe Goons and Titans might MOTS each other if it was late in the season. Since everyone's doing the same thing, there's less reason to be concerned about it. (Note: Some teams PIC every match, feeling that PIC'ing at POE is better than normalling at lower. I've never done this, and think the positive effects (if any) are slight). The random luck of the Cup draw is a bigger issue. If a team gets a tough Cup draw and is knocked out in week 5, while I can PIC in the Cup through week 8, it puts me at an advantage against them for a few weeks past that.

3. Midfield becomes LESS important higher up, I believe. Cyclones and myself had similar midfield and similar attacks. My D was miles ahead of his, thus the result (which admittedly was a bit lucky; it shouldn't have been that bad). If my midfield was a little better, or a little worse, I don't think it would've affected much. Most ML teams are capable of putting up titanic (old) at least. You don't get a team with 75% possession usually. Last week's average possessions in the 4 matches were 51.5, 52, 55, and 53%. While it could be argued that getting every ounce of midfield is important (and it is...), I don't think spirit (or raising the level of midfield rating a little) affects possession nearly as much.

My match with Cyclones: my mid was mythical; his was supernatural (I still use old ratings; sorry...). 3 levels (old). Yet, was only 53%. So using spirit to boost it another level or two doesn't have the same effect. (Of course, it's unknown whether spirit increases proportionally. If one level of spirit raises midfield from 10 to 11, does it raise it from 20 to 22?) While I haven't studied it, it's my feeling that the effects are less with dealing with higher midfields.

Just my two cents. I think it IS important, especially when the spread/ratio of midfields is high. If (numberwise), teams in the series have "default" midfields of 6-14, then handling PIC/MOTS/spirit is very important. A 14 versus a 6 would be 70/30 possession. More than 2/1. But when it's 16-24, possession will be fairly balanced regardless. 24 vs. 16 would be 60/40. 1.5/1. Not as big a deal.

Sorry if this made no sense; it's late :)

[KevinNU7]

It does. It moves toward one of the C's (composed, I think), so if you're high, it edges lower and if you're low, it edges higher.

SI
But that really has nothing to do with whether you PIC/Normal/MOTS. That has everything to do with your coach.

My post was mainly to show Qwik that TS is important and he shouldn't burn it all MOTS multiple times.

[jddurango]

Questions:

When does TS adjust? After a league game, after training or after teh weekly adjustments?

Do both friendlies and league matches affect TS? Meaning if I PIC'ed both my league match and that weeks friendly will my TS be affected even more than just if i PIC'ed the league game?

ph

[Mr. Wednesday]

Friendlies have no effect on TS.

TS will update:
* shortly after the match, if it's a match that alters TS.
* during the daily update, it will follow a curve toward composed, subject to modification by your team leader and coach's leadership.

[jddurango]

Wednesday,

HOw do you know if it's a match that alters TS? (do u just find out after the match?)

Right now my TS is Furious and I'm trying to raise it. I won my league match the past two weeks and its not increasing. I didn't PIC either match and just played them normal.

My team confidence is high, my supporters and fan club are in good shape, I just need to raise TS and am having trouble.

I am thinking of PICing my next league match this weekend to get it to bump up. Is that how I should do it or do you have other recommendations?

thank you!

PH

[Alf]

Billy : it perfectly makes sense. :)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Matches that alter TS are matches you play PIC (raises TS) or MOTS (lowers it).

Playing normal makes no change at all, with the result that your TS will continue to follow the curve toward composed.

If your TS is at furious right now, you should try to PIC any matches where you will definitely win or definitely lose the midfield, so that you can recover.