So...how rampant WAS baseball's steroid usage...

[Ben E Lou]

First, a GM comes out and admits that team brass suspected Caminiti, but did nothing. Today, Scheurholz straight-up admits in the AJC that he has suspected multiple Braves of steroid use over the years, and even confronted several about it--and this is on a team that hasn't had more than a handful of 40HR guys in the time he's been around. This raises two questions:

1. Was this more widespread than just a handful of top sluggers?
2. With testing this year, are we going to see a return to the days of 40 HR and 110 RBI being a virtual lock for the MVP?

Article:

Schuerholz has suspected Braves of steroids use
Lake Buena Vista, Fla. -- John Schuerholz admits he suspected over the years that a few Braves players were using steroids. He even confronted several, he said Tuesday.

"Yes, I was in that position, and yes I did," Schuerholz said, not divulging names. "But I suffered the same frustrations that all other general managers did.

<!--endclickprintinclude--><!--startclickprintinclude--> "If we had our suspicions, all we could do was ask the player, and if the player said no, we were done. We had nowhere to go. Our hands were tied behind our backs.

"We had no capability of testing a player to validate or verify whether a guy needed help to get off performance-enhancing drugs."

Schuerholz's revelation comes after San Diego general manager Kevin Towers said he thought Ken Caminiti, briefly a Brave in 2001 at the end of his career, was using steroids when he won the National League MVP award with the Padres in 1996.

"I want to make this clear: As general managers, we didn't turn our heads away from players who might be using steroids because it was a benefit to us," Schuerholz said. 'No, if we turned our heads, it out of frustration because there was nothing we could do about it. Sadly, we didn't have the authority to test players or fix the prob- lem."

Now, baseball does have a drug testing policy with meaningful penalties, and Schuerholz thinks that management and players alike will benefit.

"It's the best thing that could have happened for the integrity of the game," he said. "It's too late coming, but I'm glad that we've finally got here. It's the right path.

"Sure, it could be stronger, but it's a good start. I think the players and the union will realize how beneficial it is. We had to clean things up."

The new drug agreement goes into effect on Thursday with random year-round testing. First-time offenders will be suspended for 10 days without pay, although the public outing might be the greater penalty.

Catcher Johnny Estrada, the Braves' player representative for the union, is confident that the new policy will work, and he said that general managers shouldn't be blamed for anything that happened in the past.

"It was out of their hands," Estrada said. "They didn't have any right to do anything. It was against the agreement between the union and management."

[ISiddiqui]

Was this more widespread than just a handful of top sluggers?
I think that's a given. I'd say the majority were on something.

[rkmsuf]

John Schuerholz admits he suspected over the years that a few Braves players were using steroids.

The man is a genius.

He probably can call everyone's hand in holdem after they turn over their cards as well.

[Blackadar]

The man is a genius.

He probably can call everyone's hand in holdem after they turn over their cards as well.

This strikes me as mostly self-serving.

"I didn't like it, but I didn't try to do anything to stop/publicize it".

[Blackadar]

Oh, and to answer these questions:

1. Was this more widespread than just a handful of top sluggers?

Without a doubt. I've never believed that just the "top sluggers" were juiced. I think Caminiti had it right - 50% of baseball was juiced. For example, I always suspect Nomar as being juiced (and I'm a Sox fan - I like Nomar). He went from being a light-hitting SS in the minors to a power-hititng one in the majors.

8 HRs in over 500 ABs in Trenton. Two years later he's dinging 30 at Fenway.

2. With testing this year, are we going to see a return to the days of 40 HR and 110 RBI being a virtual lock for the MVP?

Nope. I think players, even without 'roids, will continue to hit more HRs for the following reasons:

A. Better training programs - year 'round training by athletes
B. Training programs that concentrate more on weights - markedly different from the 70s and early 80s
C. Acceptability of strike outs in general - swing for the fences mentality
D. More consistent baseballs - not juiced, but no dead balls anymore
E. Better nutrition/suppliments - overall better nutrition
F. Smaller ballparks - built for the HR ball

Look at the NFL - they've drug tested for many years with one of the strictest programs out there. Players have continued to get bigger, faster and stronger. Look at golf. Those guys are in a lot better shape than they used to be and they continue to hit the ball longer every year - making many courses obsolete. The same thing continues in baseball, meaning more HRs are going out of the parks.

[CraigSca]

Regarding Blackadar's post:

This is where it gets interesting. Yes, things have changed over the years (better nutrition, increased weight training, etc.). I wonder how much effect then will the lack of steroids (hopefully, anyway) have on the offensive numbers. I'm a child of the 70's-80's when 30-35 homeruns really meant something. I "think" I'd like to go back to offensive performance like that. I'm not entirely positive, but I "think" I would.

Interestingly, not sure how many fans of replay or tabletop baseball games there are on this board (though I think there would be), but I just CANNOT have fun replaying games from the early 70's (1971 and '72 in particular). The offense in those years was so non-existent that baseball starts to resemble a soccer match for me. Low scores like 2-1, 3-2, 1-0 are a nice thing to see in modern day baseball, but not when they become the norm.

Give me the days of 4.5 runs per game and I'll be happy.

[Bo Jackson's Hip]

Let's have some guesses as to who they were.

I'd guess Ron Gant, Klesko, Bret Boone, Caminiti (of course), Sheffield, any other Braves fans care to hazard a guess?

[Bo Jackson's Hip]

CraigSca,

You're right, when I was a kid following baseball religiously, .295, 36-108 was a monster season. Now if you put up those numbers they're trying to replace you.

[Buzzbee]

Let's have some guesses as to who they were.

I'd guess Ron Gant, Klesko, Bret Boone, Caminiti (of course), Sheffield, any other Braves fans care to hazard a guess?
John Rocker

[Ksyrup]

Steve Avery - just a guess based on my theory that the number of pitchers breaking down over the past 20 years is related to something other than wear and tear.

As far as guys suddenly hitting HRs go, it's a tricky cause-and-effect issue, because power is typically the last of the 5 "tools" to show itself. So while some guys might get their power from roids, others might just grow into it as hitters.

[hhiipp]

John Rocker
Rafael Belliard and Jeff Treadway

[Buzzbee]

Rafael Belliard and Jeff Treadway
If so, that was the worst use of Steroids in history. They should've tried Wheaties.

I believe Belliard holds the record for most AB's between homeruns.

[MikeVic]

Jeff Blauser and Otis Nixon.

[CraigSca]

I think Pepe Frias started this whole damn Atlanta Brave shortstops on 'roids controversy.

[sterlingice]

John Rocker No, he took stupid pills ;)

Jeff Blauser and Otis Nixon. And there's an ugly stick joke here but I just don't have the heart to make it.

SI

[Bo Jackson's Hip]

I just thought of something when I mentioned Ron Gant. I remember watching a spring training game on WTBS around that time and Pete Van Wieren and Don Sutton openly speculating how Gant went from a 160 lb. 2B to a 205 lb. body builder between October and March.

[HomerJSimpson]

I think Pepe Frias started this whole damn Atlanta Brave shortstops on 'roids controversy.

Andres Thomas

[HomerJSimpson]

I just thought of something when I mentioned Ron Gant. I remember watching a spring training game on WTBS around that time and Pete Van Wieren and Don Sutton openly speculating how Gant went from a 160 lb. 2B to a 205 lb. body builder between October and March.


He wouldn't suprise me at all.

[dawgfan]

1. Was this more widespread than just a handful of top sluggers?

I think the thing that bugs me most about the whole steroid controversy is how it seems to be focused in the public's mind solely on hitters, when we keep hearing whispers from inside baseball that pitchers not only have been juicing as well, but perhaps at a greater clip than hitters. Everyone wants to look at the buffed-out hitters and any hitter that experienced a surge in HR as a suspect, but remember that one of the initial players accused in the BALCO mess was Marvin Benard - not someone that really fits the previously listed categories.

2. With testing this year, are we going to see a return to the days of 40 HR and 110 RBI being a virtual lock for the MVP?

Doubtful. As Blackie already pointed out, factors like better training by the players, a shift in hitting philosophy towards swinging for the fences, more consistent baseballs and smaller ballparks have all been major factors in the HR explosion. Add to that better bats and the strong possibility that just as many pitchers have been juicing as hitters, and I doubt we'll see a return to the offensive norms of the late '70's through the late '80's when 40 HR was really remarkable.

[Ksyrup]

Wonderful Terrific Monds III had to be juicing.

[KWhit]

Human Growth Hormone is not detectable with the current tests, so players will still use it. And there are undoubtably more designer undetectable steroids out there that will still be used.

The problem isn't going away any time soon.

[Bo Jackson's Hip]

Don't forget Mark Lemke, Sid Bream, Greg Olson, Francisco Cabrera, Zane Smith.

[Ben E Lou]

If it hadn't happened before Scheurholz got there, I would have sworn he was talking about Rick Camp's 4th-of-July (well, actually 5th-of-July at the moment he hit it) game-tying homer.

[Ksyrup]

I remember that game well. Luckily, I was too far away to hear the fireworks go off at 3 am or whenever it was.

[miami_fan]

I think the thing that bugs me most about the whole steroid controversy is how it seems to be focused in the public's mind solely on hitters, when we keep hearing whispers from inside baseball that pitchers not only have been juicing as well, but perhaps at a greater clip than hitters. Everyone wants to look at the buffed-out hitters and any hitter that experienced a surge in HR as a suspect, but remember that one of the initial players accused in the BALCO mess was Marvin Benard - not someone that really fits the previously listed categories.


Interesting quip from Peter Gammons along the same lines

Players right now believe the percentage of pitchers who juiced -- as opposed to the pitchers, especially Hall of Famers, who cheated -- is higher in the last five years than position players. They began testing last year, and the home-run rate went up.

I am guessing the prevailing thought was pitchers would not be helped by steroids.

[Ksyrup]

That's not limited to baseball, though. All sports are susceptible to substances that aren't detectable.

[dawgfan]

Human Growth Hormone is not detectable with the current tests, so players will still use it. And there are undoubtably more designer undetectable steroids out there that will still be used.

The problem isn't going away any time soon.

Good point - I meant to include that in my post as well. It's all fine and dandy that MLB has enacted "tougher" testing provisions, but they're still awfully weak and as KWhit points out, they won't catch HGH. Until/unless MLB and the MLBPA agree to a system that not only is much stricter in its punishment of those caught juicing but is also much more rigorous along the lines of Olympic Games testing procedures, juicing will remain a part of the game.

[Desnudo]

Oh, and to answer these questions:

1. Was this more widespread than just a handful of top sluggers?

Without a doubt. I've never believed that just the "top sluggers" were juiced. I think Caminiti had it right - 50% of baseball was juiced. For example, I always suspect Nomar as being juiced (and I'm a Sox fan - I like Nomar). He went from being a light-hitting SS in the minors to a power-hititng one in the majors.

8 HRs in over 500 ABs in Trenton. Two years later he's dinging 30 at Fenway.


While I think you might be right about Nomar, I don't think using AA as evidence works. That was horrible hitters park. No one hit home runs there.

[Noop]

Baseball is a joke. It sucks...

[dawgfan]

I am guessing the prevailing thought was pitchers would not be helped by steroids.

Here's the thing that I think is really being overlooked in the steroid controversy - there's all the hullabaloo over players juicing and the games records being tainted, but the fact is we really don't know exactly how much steroid/HGH/etc. use has helped these players.

There are a lot of reasons why HR's have increased - smaller parks, better bats, a fundamental shift in player attitudes about strength training and its' effects on baseball performance, a shift in hitting philosophies that has decreased the negative connotations of strikeouts and emphasized swinging for the fences, more consistent baseballs.

How much have steroid users benefited from their use? How many HR's did Barry Bonds gain from juicing (assuming he did), and how much was simply due to other factors? Let's also not forget that there are many nutritional supplements that are still legal that also give a boost to those working out - maybe not as much as the illegal ones, but the question remains about how much more benefit the illegal stuff generated over the legal ones.

There's been an assumption by many in the public arena that steroids simply = greater strength, and thus the focus on power hitters and HR's. But maybe an equal benefit was in allowing quicker recovery time from injuries? Maybe pitchers realized that if they juiced they were not only getting a benefit of potential quicker recovery for tender arms, but if they also emphasized a strong lower body workout in conjunction with juicing they could add velocity to their pitches? Remember, a pitcher derives much of his ability from leg and torso strength - that's what drives the pitching motion. Highly flexible shoulders and strong wrists are also key, but take a look at Mark Prior and watch him pitch and tell me he isn't getting a lot of his ability from his mammoth legs and thick trunk.

Let us also ponder this - if it turns out to be true that just as many, if not more pitchers were juicing in the last 5 years as hitters, does that in fact negate the public's perception that hitting feats over that time are tainted? Do the advantages a pitcher gets from juicing negate the advantages a hitter gets from juicing?

[CraigSca]

Not football though. Everyone knows that's 100% clean...

[Buccaneer]

I suspect that MLB officials (Selig on down) knew about it but needed this issue to have kept quiet, not only to avoid a major controversy since 1994, but the ratings that come up with playing monster ball. All of the other sports sacrificed finesses for power, MLB just had to ramp up even more.

[clintl]

Interesting quip from Peter Gammons along the same lines

Players right now believe the percentage of pitchers who juiced -- as opposed to the pitchers, especially Hall of Famers, who cheated -- is higher in the last five years than position players. They began testing last year, and the home-run rate went up.

I am guessing the prevailing thought was pitchers would not be helped by steroids.

In the same article, Gammons pointed out that all of the top 22 K/IP seasons have been in the last 20 years. With all the focus on hitters and HRs, that stat has been lurking under the radar, but might be more telling than the increase in HRs.

[BishopMVP]

In the same article, Gammons pointed out that all of the top 22 K/IP seasons have been in the last 20 years. With all the focus on hitters and HRs, that stat has been lurking under the radar, but might be more telling than the increase in HRs.It might also have a lot to do with hitters swinging for power more than contact now. It wasn't acceptable in the past to top 100 strikeouts, now guys like Mark Bellhorn are up at 150-160 with nothing being said.

[Leonidas]

Considering the chemists have been a year or two ahead of the testers in sports like track or football (you don't think all these 330 lb linemen in the NFL are all natural do you?) do you really think this new testing program will stop someone from finding the new BALCO and paying good money for the cutting edge of HGH technology? Sure, some of the less committed guys will stop, but I don't expect someone chasing records who is maing lots of cash to stop seeking ways to beat the tests.

[clintl]

It might also have a lot to do with hitters swinging for power more than contact now. It wasn't acceptable in the past to top 100 strikeouts, now guys like Mark Bellhorn are up at 150-160 with nothing being said.

I don't think so. 20 years ago, a guy who could throw consistently in the low 90s was a big deal. Now if you can't do that, you better be a crafty lefthanded situational reliever, or you probably won't have a job.

[dawgfan]

I don't think so. 20 years ago, a guy who could throw consistently in the low 90s was a big deal. Now if you can't do that, you better be a crafty lefthanded situational reliever, or you probably won't have a job.

I'm not so sure that's really true. It would be interesting to see if anyone has compiled radar reading data and compared average fastball velocity over the years.

In-stadium radar readings I suspect tend to use the faster radar gun for the sake of appeasing the players, but on the true guns I think there are still quite a few pitchers making a good living below 90 MPH. There are certainly plenty of lefties doing so, and not just situational relievers with big breaking pitches. There are also right-handers on most staffs that aren't reaching 90 MPH with any consistency.

I'm not saying average velocity hasn't gone up in recent years - it may well have, but I haven't yet seen anything definitive proving this to be true. I would suspect that it may be true given the whispers about many pitchers juicing.

The pitcher/steroids rumors also make me wonder about those stories that were coming out in recent years about guys undergoing Tommy John surgery and supposedly throwing faster than before after full recovery. Was that actually true, and if so, was it just the surgery, or were some of these guys juicing to speed along their rehab?

[Klinglerware]

I don't think so. 20 years ago, a guy who could throw consistently in the low 90s was a big deal. Now if you can't do that, you better be a crafty lefthanded situational reliever, or you probably won't have a job.

I think it's both the pitchers throwing at higher velocities and hitters with more incetive to swing for the fences that are contributing to the obscenely high strikeout totals.

Yes, clintl is probably right to say that there are more 6'4"+ power pitchers who throw in the mid 90s pitching today than 20 years ago (I can't say for sure that this is true, but MLB scouts look for these types of players--some say to the detriment of players who are true "pitchers" rather than "throwers"). But going for the home run is the way the game is played today. Singles hitters with excellent bat control (e.g. Ichiro) do exist, but these players are few and far between these days because there is little incentive for the system to develop these kinds of players. Much like how the system looks with favor on tall and muscular power pitchers, the system favors hitters who are agressive and hit with power. The combination serves to magnify the strikeout totals.

so it's a little bit of both.