More Allegations...Mark McGwire's turn.

[Sharpieman]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=2011727

This is a story about a story in the NY Daily news linking McGwire to steroid.

Sorry, here's the actual story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/289501p-247837c.html

[Ksyrup]

That is the least informative article I have ever read. It should just say - "I'm Buster Olney, and if you want some information about this topic, read the NY Daily."

[Arles]

Yawn, glad to see this is all about keeping kids off steroids and hasn't turned into a witch hunt. :rolleyes:

[Easy Mac]

*cough**cough*heswhiteandanicon,unlikegiambi*cough**cough*

[kcchief19]

I don't know why so many people want to think that everyone but McGwire was on steroids. There is plenty of smoke with that fire. Why would McGwire be the only one who wasn't "cheating" who put up monstrous home run totals? Especially since he has proudly admitted to using supplements akin to steroids that enhanced his physical abilities?

[Arles]

heswhiteandanicon,unlikegiambi
Giambi's not white?

[clintl]

Well, Giambi's no icon at least.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know why so many people want to think that everyone but McGwire was on steroids. There is plenty of smoke with that fire. Why would McGwire be the only one who wasn't "cheating" who put up monstrous home run totals? Especially since he has proudly admitted to using supplements akin to steroids that enhanced his physical abilities?
Maybe because he hit 49 HRs as a skinny rookie in 1987? It's not like he turned into a HR hitter after several years like Bonds, Sosa, etc.

[Arles]

I don't know why so many people want to think that everyone but McGwire was on steroids. There is plenty of smoke with that fire. Why would McGwire be the only one who wasn't "cheating" who put up monstrous home run totals? Especially since he has proudly admitted to using supplements akin to steroids that enhanced his physical abilities?
My point is "who cares"? If McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero, Bonds, Thome and Juan Gonzalez juiced, then what? No one is ever going to be able to prove most of these guys did it, so it all amounts to a witch hunt. This is becoming similar to the Pete Rose fiasco with the media pleading for these guys to admit it, knowing full well the moment one does they will start the proceeding to ban them from the Hall. Yet, during the pleading, they take the Cheshire cat stance of "why won't these guys just come clean, we won't do anything"...

The reality is we will never know for certain whether guys like McGwire, Sosa or Palmiero juiced. There's nothing that can be done to change than and all will be going into the Hall. What bothers me is this is a chance for Senators to grandstand and the media to once again play "morale authority" on athletes under the guise of "saving young kids from steroids". So, again, how does having these guys parade before the Senate and get probed by the media on what they may or may have not done 10 years ago help kids?

As I stated in other posts, baseball has had it's share of performance altering rumors/scandles over the past 30 years (cortizone to play more games, Greenies to stay more alert and play faster, Gaylord Perry and Co. using everything short of a belt sander on the ball), yet there's little outrage over that. But mention potential steroid use 10 years ago and the media turns into Columbo trying to find a way to close the barn door after all the horses have left.

If the media really cared about saving the kids and steroids was as rampant as they are now saying it was, perhaps they should have stopped salivating over McGwire, Canseco, Sosa and Bonds' HRs in the mid-90s and not done the wink-wink, nudge-nudge with the players and teams on this issue to keep getting good interviews. The media on this is no different than CNN in Iraq under Saddam. They knew many of these guys were juicing, but didn't want to lose their access and expose this. And, now, a decade later, they want a pat on the back for their witch hunt against these guys now that the horse has left the barn. :rolleyes:

[KWhit]

If McGwire was using steroids and lying about it this whole time, then he gets what he deserves. I have lost all respect for him, Bonds, Giambi, Sosa, etc. and will root against them every chance I get.

And their names being dragged through the dirt now is what they deserve.

[chinaski]

If nothings changed in the media, then why would they keep quiet then and not now?

If anything, the record breaking years would have INCREASED the want for a steroid story. Now its all over the place because they finally got caught - and this is the kicker - they were caught red handed. Back in the 90's there was nothing to nail them to, now we have that. The simple truth is there was NO "steroid" story in the 90's.. No Balco indictments, no grand juries going on... nothing. That is not the medias fault and how could it be?

To say that this didnt get covered in the 90's because reporters didnt want to lose their access is just looney. Thats beyond implausible.

[Joe Canadian]

Ya know what... it doesn't bother me that there are people trying to figure out who was on steroids. If people want to find out the truth, or at least try to find it out... then good for them. I really don't care if Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero, of Giambi get their feathers wrinkled because of this...

[Sharpieman]

I don't know why so many people want to think that everyone but McGwire was on steroids. There is plenty of smoke with that fire. Why would McGwire be the only one who wasn't "cheating" who put up monstrous home run totals? Especially since he has proudly admitted to using supplements akin to steroids that enhanced his physical abilities?
Because he's sooooo lovable. How can you hate this nice man who hugs his son after hitting a homerun. He's a media darling!

Barry mean = must be on steroids.

McGwire nice = never did steroids.

[Arles]

Ya know what... it doesn't bother me that there are people trying to figure out who was on steroids. If people want to find out the truth, or at least try to find it out... then good for them. I really don't care if Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero, of Giambi get their feathers wrinkled because of this...
But how can you find the truth now? It's a little late for any kind of compelling evidence. The media should have done this back in the mid-90s when it "supposedly" was rampant everywhere and in each clubhouse (as the media quotes Canseco now). Yet, now, all these guys are grouped together when some (ie, Palmiero) may have never done anything wrong.

Also, how would you recommend that a guy like Palmiero, Sosa or McGwire "prove" they are innocent? They guys are basically in the position of answering the question "When did you stop beating your wife?" Good luck getting out of that without looking all defensive. I'm sure some took something, but there's not a whole lot anyone can do about it at this point and no one will ever be able to prove they took them.

[clintl]

Baseball has its testing program, and its penalties. Let's see how they work. Everything that has happened before baseball did this doesn't matter now. Steroids were not against the rules, and if players took them, then they took them. It's pretty obvious that management knew it was happening, and did nothing. Tony LaRussa, Kevin Towers, and John Schuerholz have admitted it. And if that's the case, the implicit message was that it was condoned (much like the long-standing practice of clubs supplying amphetamines to players).

I agree with Arles, at this point, it's become a witch hunt.

[clintl]

Personally I think the league should have done something earlier, the responsibility here shouldn't be on the media but on the teams and league, IMO. How can you find the truth? I don't know... but I think it is at least worth a shot. I don't get what closing our eyes and forgetting about it accomplishes... at least if we attempt to find the truth, then we have all the facts... instead of speculating for the rest of eternity.

And what do you do then? It wasn't against the rules to take steroids while this was going on, so you can't punish anyone for anything.

[Ragone]

oh lord.. here comes the race card.. just wait :)

[Joe Canadian]

But how can you find the truth now? It's a little late for any kind of compelling evidence. The media should have done this back in the mid-90s when it "supposedly" was rampant everywhere and in each clubhouse (as the media quotes Canseco now). Yet, now, all these guys are grouped together when some (ie, Palmiero) may have never done anything wrong.

Personally I think the league should have done something earlier, the responsibility here shouldn't be on the media but on the teams and league, IMO. How can you find the truth? I don't know... but I think it is at least worth a shot. I don't get what closing our eyes and forgetting about it accomplishes... at least if we attempt to find the truth, then we have all the facts... instead of speculating for the rest of eternity.

[Arles]

If nothings changed in the media, then why would they keep quiet then and not now?

If anything, the record breaking years would have INCREASED the want for a steroid story. Now its all over the place because they finally got caught - and this is the kicker - they were caught red handed. Back in the 90's there was nothing to nail them to, now we have that. The simple truth is there was NO "steroid" story in the 90's.. No Balco indictments, no grand juries going on... nothing. That is not the medias fault and how could it be?

To say that this didnt get covered in the 90's because reporters didnt want to lose their access is just looney. Thats beyond implausible.
So, when all these steroids were hanging out in clubhouses and numerous players, GMs and coaches knew it was going on, none of the 300+ media members traveling with each team for 160 games a season knew about it?

Talk about implausible...

[Arles]

It sounds like the FBI DID do an investigation back in the 90s and McGwire was implicated.
OK, what's the evidence outside of another "he said/she said"?

[Swaggs]

But how can you find the truth now? It's a little late for any kind of compelling evidence. The media should have done this back in the mid-90s when it "supposedly" was rampant everywhere and in each clubhouse (as the media quotes Canseco now). Yet, now, all these guys are grouped together when some (ie, Palmiero) may have never done anything wrong.

Also, how would you recommend that a guy like Palmiero, Sosa or McGwire "prove" they are innocent? They guys are basically in the position of answering the question "When did you stop beating your wife?" Good luck getting out of that without looking all defensive. I'm sure some took something, but there's not a whole lot anyone can do about it at this point and no one will ever be able to prove they took them.


It sounds like the FBI DID do an investigation back in the 90s and McGwire was implicated.

[Arles]

Personally I think the league should have done something earlier, the responsibility here shouldn't be on the media but on the teams and league, IMO. How can you find the truth? I don't know... but I think it is at least worth a shot. I don't get what closing our eyes and forgetting about it accomplishes... at least if we attempt to find the truth, then we have all the facts... instead of speculating for the rest of eternity.
No, by continuing on with this you have created a situation where we will speculate for the rest of eternity. But, if that's what congress and the media wants to do, then be honest about it. Right now, they are disguising all this in a garb of "preventing young kids from using" poppycock. If you want to prevent young kids from using, start looking at high school and American legion teams, go through the minors and college programs and try to make tougher standards there. What does crying over split milk 10 years later with regards to Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero do about preventing young kids from using it now? At best, you somehow tie a person like Sosa or McGwire to using and (undoubtedly) make steroid the sole reason for their success (given the normal media hyperbole).

Yeah, that's a good way to stop kids from using steroids. "We find that McGwire and Sosa got all their power from using juice and that's how they hit 60+ HRs a year. Both are currently healthy and living nice lives as they head into the Hall of Fame. But, kids, don't use steroids!" :confused:

[chinaski]

So, when all these steroids were hanging out in clubhouses and numerous players, GMs and coaches knew it was going on, none of the 300+ media members traveling with each team for 160 games a season knew about it?

Talk about implausible...

And thats why I bring up BALCO. Do you really expect reporters to report on speculation?

I knew without a doubt in my mind Canseco was on roids by 88' and maybe it was just my general disgust for his character back then lead me to that conclusion, but I could just tell anyways. Im sure I wasnt alone in that assumption. But, at that time, he was not in legal trouble because of it, he wasnt accused under oath of using it, so there was nothing that could be done.

Theres a huge difference between speculation and confirmation.

[Arles]

And thats why I bring up BALCO. Do you really expect reporters to report on speculation?
Not stopping them from doing it right now with Palmiero and McGwire. Last I checked, no hard evidence has come out against either.

Theres a huge difference between speculation and confirmation.
What exactly has been confirmed about Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero that now makes it not speculation and OK to report on now?

[Ksyrup]

It sounds like the FBI DID do an investigation back in the 90s and McGwire was implicated.
This is the sum total of the "evidence" linking him:

"While evidence against McGwire was never collected and he was not a target in the investigation, two steroid dealers caught in the probe told the Daily News that another dealer provided McGwire and Jose Canseco (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3730), among others, with illegal anabolic steroids."

Not saying he didn't do it, but that's hardly what I'd call proof.

[Ksyrup]

Apparently Jeremy Giambi has now outed himself.

[chinaski]

Not stopping them from doing it right now with Palmiero and McGwire. Last I checked, no hard evidence has come out against either.


What exactly has been confirmed about Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero that now makes it not speculation and OK to report on now?

Is Sosa, Mc, and Raffy part of the now infamous "Steroid 7"? Im a little confused on how those 3 recently moved into the frame on this story? If they were implacated during BALCO testimony, then thats a pretty hard wrap to shake, even though not concrete evidence, its pretty damning. Much more pointed than clubhouse whispers.

The core of your arguement stands correct regardless, there is zero way to ever prove these guys were juiced (scientifically anyways), so they should just leave it be. But i guess since it is scientifically impossible to prove use years later, it makes the BALCO stuff much more "credible" or juicy to say the least.

I hope theres a breakthru in DNA testing so we can prove these guys were for real or not.

[Swaggs]

This is the sum total of the "evidence" linking him:

"While evidence against McGwire was never collected and he was not a target in the investigation, two steroid dealers caught in the probe told the Daily News that another dealer provided McGwire and Jose Canseco (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3730), among others, with illegal anabolic steroids."

Not saying he didn't do it, but that's hardly what I'd call proof.

I agree with you on what has been released.

But, it seems like a lot of folks think that the players have the shroud of, "Well, we can't prove what they did or didn't do back in the 90s." If the FBI has a thick file with a lot of witnesses from that period of time, that cuts into that protection a little bit.

[Logan]

Umm ... sometimes, eyewitness testimony is all it takes.
It really all comes down to the credibility of the "he/she" doing the saying.

Which is, in this case, steroid pushers. :)

EDIT: I think this is the first time I've ever been hit by the timestamp bug.

[JonInMiddleGA]

OK, what's the evidence outside of another "he said/she said"?

Umm ... sometimes, eyewitness testimony is all it takes.
It really all comes down to the credibility of the "he/she" doing the saying.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Both are currently healthy and living nice lives as they head into the Hall of Fame. But, kids, don't use steroids!" :confused:

A) We'll see how long they remain "healthy" and "living nice lives" if the suspicions are proven.

and

B) If they're proven, we'll see whether they end up in the Hall or not. My bet is no, not if they can be proven to have juiced.

[DeToxRox]

Someone said Jeremy Giambi outted himself .. Was that just a joke or is their truth to that?

[chinaski]

hxxp://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2011867

[kparker15]

I have seen the analogy to cortisone and steroids.

This is not a comparison. Cortisone is a steroid and is injected into the joints or muscle to allow an anti-inflammatory effect. In reality, there are very few side effects of an intraarticular (into the joint) injection. We use it routinely in our orthopedic practice and will do this every 3 months if needed on patients. Even high school athletes.

Anabolic steroids are much different with well documented deleteroius side effects.

Joint injections with cortisone or lidocaine are performance ENABLERS

Anabolic steroids are performance ENHANCERS.

Cortisone injections are not going to allow the player to hit 73 HR when his previous high is almost 30 HR less.

There is a big difference and the analogy is apples to oranges.

[Arles]

I have seen the analogy to cortisone and steroids.

This is not a comparison. Cortisone is a steroid and is injected into the joints or muscle to allow an anti-inflammatory effect. In reality, there are very few side effects of an intraarticular (into the joint) injection. We use it routinely in our orthopedic practice and will do this every 3 months if needed on patients. Even high school athletes.

Anabolic steroids are much different with well documented deleteroius side effects.
Hmmm, I thought the main fear here was the integrity of the game and not "side effects". Allowing a player to play with a significant injury seems just as much of a "performance enhancer" as allowing someone to increase their bench faster.

If we are worried about adverse side effects, we should start the banning with smokeless tobacco.

Joint injections with cortisone or lidocaine are performance ENABLERS

Anabolic steroids are performance ENHANCERS.

Cortisone injections are not going to allow the player to hit 73 HR when his previous high is almost 30 HR less.
I would say the ability to play when you can't walk is a bigger performance enhancer than helping someone lift more weights. Not that either are desireable, but I can't see getting injections of cortizone to play with a significant injury (and potentially get injured even more seriously) is any less of a health risk than cycling on steroids.

[Joe Canadian]

No, by continuing on with this you have created a situation where we will speculate for the rest of eternity. But, if that's what congress and the media wants to do, then be honest about it. Right now, they are disguising all this in a garb of "preventing young kids from using" poppycock. If you want to prevent young kids from using, start looking at high school and American legion teams, go through the minors and college programs and try to make tougher standards there. What does crying over split milk 10 years later with regards to Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero do about preventing young kids from using it now? At best, you somehow tie a person like Sosa or McGwire to using and (undoubtedly) make steroid the sole reason for their success (given the normal media hyperbole).

Yeah, that's a good way to stop kids from using steroids. "We find that McGwire and Sosa got all their power from using juice and that's how they hit 60+ HRs a year. Both are currently healthy and living nice lives as they head into the Hall of Fame. But, kids, don't use steroids!" :confused:

I'll agree I don't really see why they are using this to stop kids from using steroids, but that doesn't change the fact I think someone should try to find out if players used them. If people look into this, and prove either way if Bonds or McGwire used them... then the speculation will end. Right now, because we don't know either way the speculation will continue...

I'm not really sure what the downfall is here if we investigate these players...

[HomerJSimpson]

Hmmm, I thought the main fear here was the integrity of the game and not "side effects". Allowing a player to play with a significant injury seems just as much of a "performance enhancer" as allowing someone to increase their bench faster.

If we are worried about adverse side effects, we should start the banning with smokeless tobacco.

I would say the ability to play when you can't walk is a bigger performance enhancer than helping someone lift more weights. Not that either are desireable, but I can't see getting injections of cortizone to play with a significant injury (and potentially get injured even more seriously) is any less of a health risk than cycling on steroids.


So, are you saying that a high-school team physician that gives a player a cortisone shot should also be able to give the players anabolic steriods? Or are you saying that they should outlaw cortisone shots? Either way, your argument is looking pretty bad. It is like your equating asprin with crack cocaine.

[KWhit]

I had a mean hit of Anacin earlier and I was baked.

[QuikSand]

The steroids issue really brings out the irrational side of a lot of people.

[clintl]

If we are going to start complaining about cortisone, we'll have to discount the entire good half of Sandy Koufax's career.

[Arles]

So, are you saying that a high-school team physician that gives a player a cortisone shot should also be able to give the players anabolic steriods? Or are you saying that they should outlaw cortisone shots? Either way, your argument is looking pretty bad. It is like your equating asprin with crack cocaine.
No, I am saying both impact performance. Again, taking out the health risk (which I understand is hard for many people), I don't see a great deal of difference between injecting a player with cortisone so that they don't feel pain and can play when they otherwise could not and someone getting marginal increases from using steroids (marginal compared to using legal substances like supplements, creatine and protein-based diets).

If one is "bad for the game", how can the other not be? Again, this is based on the premise of using exterior drugs/treatments that impact the normal ability to perform.

This comes back to my premise that steroid use, while certainly not desireable and should be banned, is no worse than cortison, greenies and scuffing the ball on impacting a player's ability to play baseball. Yet, the media is treating it like it's impact is orders of magnitude higher. I don't get that.

[ISiddiqui]

Do you really expect reporters to report on speculation?
You are pulling our legs right? Reporters report on specualation ALL the time! Ask anyone in politics.

If they're proven, we'll see whether they end up in the Hall or not. My bet is no, not if they can be proven to have juiced.
LOL! Don't make that bet. You'll lose a ton of money. It wasn't against the rules of baseball, unlikes what, say, Hall of Famer Gaylord Perry did throughout his entire career.

This comes back to my premise that steroid use, while certainly not desireable and should be banned, is no worse than cortison, greenies and scuffing the ball on impacting a player's ability to play baseball. Yet, the media is treating it like it's impact is orders of magnitude higher. I don't get that.
I totally agree. In fact, you are by far making the most sense in this thread. It's the scandal du jour, I guess.

[Young Drachma]

The steroids issue really brings out the irrational side of a lot of people.

We get that a lot. Kinda sucks. But people love sports and these folks are "heroes" like it or not. Folks get territorial.

I think McGwire didn't juice because he didn't have to. But then, I don't think Barry intentionally did either - but he probably didn't tell Greg Anderson specifically not to give him 'roids either.

I dunno. I still say he hits the ball better than anyone in the majors, save Albert Pujols right now and that's impressive - especially when he obviously couldn't have (realistically) juiced last year.

[KeyserSoze]

One question... When all these players make their big seasons and batted like monsters and break year in year out all the records... all we know that they were juiced no? At least we suspected it. An in this moment nobody gives it a damn. I dont see anyone saying "Sosa is juiced" "Bonds is juiced" "McGwire take roids", but there was a big suspect in all. We wanted the records, and we cheered them, even we knew all the dark stuff.

It´s like NCAA. A lot of big programs cheat. And we know it. But nobody makes nothing. Because we all love to win. And when in 3 years all the scandal explodes we´ll say "How they dare? They are bad bad guys.."

[Young Drachma]

Yeah, I don't really care about the steriods. I'm not sure that I want to know about it, but I don't think it changes the fact they have to produce on the field.

[HomerJSimpson]

The steroids issue really brings out the irrational side of a lot of people.


I agree completely. So far I have seen such winning arguments like if a player can get caught speeding to the game and he is not punished then he can commit a felony in taking steriods and baseball should do nothing. Then I see if the players use cortisone shots to help them heal and get on the field faster, it is the same as commiting a felony and taking illegal steriods. I highlighted "commiting a felony" because that is the important point in all this. These guys aren't just getting a little help with a wink-wink nudge-nudge. They are commiting a crime and entangling themselves and the game with that crime.

Let's take Mac for instance. A reporter finds Andro (legal substance, at least at the time) in his locker. Baseball did nothing. Should they have? No. He didn't break a rule, nor commit a crime. Now let's say the reporter found a syringe and illegal steriods in his locker. Are you really saying that baseball wouldn't have punished him for that? If he had an ounce of cocaine? Kiddie porn?

I want to make something clear also, because I don't want to be lumped with others. I do not believe baseball should remove stats. Once something is done, it is history. Bonds, Mac, etc. all should keep their awards and honors, and this should not keep anyone out of the Hall of Fame. That is not to say they haven't harmed the game and their own reputation. That may give voters pause, but that is up to those voters. I don't think people will respect the numbers they had because of this cloud, and this will go down as one of the many great arguing points in baseball.

I do believe that if any player has used illegal drugs to attempt to improve their game, and they admit to it, MLB has proof of it, or are convicted of a crime involving it, then MLB must at least hand down suspensions. If they suspend players for driving drunk, getting in bar-fights, hitting their wives, and on and on with things that have nothing to do with the game, then it behooves MLB to punish players that commit crimes that also goes to the very integrity of the game.

[Ksyrup]

HJS, I tend to side with your reasoning, although I'm not sure MLB could do anything way back when except report suspected criminal activity, and then only take action when it resulted in a conviction or plea. Still, I see that as an alternative basis for MLB to have done more than just claim impotence based on the lack of a steroids policy in the collective bargaining agreement.

However, here's my question (because I honestly don't know the answer) - when track and field participants have tested positive for steroids and suspended/banned in the past, have there been resulting criminal cases? I don't recall hearing of any, although admittedly, I don't follow those types of sports. If these people have been given free passes, then ultimately I'm not sure reporting this activity would have done much, if anything, to cure the problem. Even now, the players do not appear to be the targets, so aside from a perjury conviction, no action can be taken resulting from the BALCO case, either.

[HomerJSimpson]

HJS, I tend to side with your reasoning, although I'm not sure MLB could do anything way back when except report suspected criminal activity, and then only take action when it resulted in a conviction or plea. Still, I see that as an alternative basis for MLB to have done more than just claim impotence based on the lack of a steroids policy in the collective bargaining agreement.

However, here's my question (because I honestly don't know the answer) - when track and field participants have tested positive for steroids and suspended/banned in the past, have there been resulting criminal cases? I don't recall hearing of any, although admittedly, I don't follow those types of sports. If these people have been given free passes, then ultimately I'm not sure reporting this activity would have done much, if anything, to cure the problem. Even now, the players do not appear to be the targets, so aside from a perjury conviction, no action can be taken resulting from the BALCO case, either.


I'm no expert (you're the lawyer :)), but I'm pretty sure baseball has some le-way on suspension on actions that hurt the image of the game. I don't think a conviction would be completely necessary, but some sort of internal due process. Many times that means wait for the courts to decide, but not always.

[Ksyrup]

It would depend on the CBA, I assume. I'm just thinking of some of the current situations - isn't there a guy in the Marlins organization who has been in and out of drug rehab for the past couple of years? I'm not sure if any of that resulted from a criminal case, but the team has put him on some sort of inactive/suspended status. Same thing with that Toe Nash guy - I think he did have a criminal charge against him, and I don't recall MLB doing anything to him, I think it was the Devil Rays who suspended him. I'm not entirely sure what MLB could do, but I think they tend to leave it up to the teams. Of course, we haven't seen a Rae Carruth-type situation in MLB, either.

[Loki]

commit a felony

commit a felony

:)

[Loki]

Sorry about that, I just like boldface to make sure everyone commit a felony gets your point.

:)

[Loki]

I don't see why this is such a big deal.

If all the people that are so outraged would just stop spending any money on baseball, they would clean it up in a hurry to get that cash back.

[Ksyrup]

I don't see why this is such a big deal.

If all the people that are so outraged would just stop spending any money on baseball, they would clean it up in a hurry to get that cash back.
To me, they are mutually exclusive. While I think something should have, and probably could have, been done 10 years ago, that has no effect whatsoever on whether I will continue to watch the games. Just like a strike doesn't affect whether I will come back or not. I still enjoy the games, and the product MLB puts on the field is so vastly superior to college and minor league baseball that, even if I had the urge, I would not consider dropping MLB for those alternatives.

[chinaski]

You are pulling our legs right? Reporters report on specualation ALL the time! Ask anyone in politics.


No, im not joking. Im not talking about politics, these are sports reporters. They report on supposed trade rumors - sure, but thats a far cry from reporting to the world that you think or you heard someone is on steroids.

Saying reporters purposely bit their tongues all through the 90's just because they were being nice or didnt want to lose their access to clubhouses is insane. There was no story back then, regardless of any type of whispers, you have to have something to base your allegations on.

[Arles]

Saying reporters purposely bit their tongues all through the 90's just because they were being nice or didnt want to lose their access to clubhouses is insane. There was no story back then, regardless of any type of whispers, you have to have something to base your allegations on.
I think it comes down to the results on the field. In the early to mid 90s (90-95), there wasn't much of the "power surge" from a record standpoint. No one was endangering Maris or Aaron's record and 50 HRs was a rare feat (only Big Daddy hit it, IIRC). So, even if the media knew, steroids were not much of a story because it didn't "appear" to be impacting the game.

Then, after four years of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and company slaughtering HR records, it suddenly became a big issue. So, the fact there wasn't a story in the early 90s wasn't because media people didn't know (unless you are naive enough to think that 300+ reporters with daily clubhouse access would fail to pick up on something now admittedly known by many players, coaches and GMs at the time), it was because their view was that steroid use wasn't impacting the game all that much. And, given that and the fact it wasn't banned by baseball, they probably didn't care much about it.

To put it in a different light, if Mac and Sosa had topped out at 58 HRs and Bonds was sitting at around 600 right now, do you think steroid use would be a big issue in baseball?

[HomerJSimpson]

I think it comes down to the results on the field. In the early to mid 90s (90-95), there wasn't much of the "power surge" from a record standpoint. No one was endangering Maris or Aaron's record and 50 HRs was a rare feat (only Big Daddy hit it, IIRC). So, even if the media knew, steroids were not much of a story because it didn't "appear" to be impacting the game.

Then, after four years of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and company slaughtering HR records, it suddenly became a big issue. So, the fact there wasn't a story in the early 90s wasn't because media people didn't know (unless you are naive enough to think that 300+ reporters with daily clubhouse access would fail to pick up on something now admittedly known by many players, coaches and GMs at the time), it was because their view was that steroid use wasn't impacting the game all that much. And, given that and the fact it wasn't banned by baseball, they probably didn't care much about it.

To put it in a different light, if Mac and Sosa had topped out at 58 HRs and Bonds was sitting at around 600 right now, do you think steroid use would be a big issue in baseball?

No, it wasn't a big story because we were told that "steriods don't help you hit a curve ball." I remember many times this issue came up (specifically when Brady Anderson hit 50+, and rumors surrounding Ken Camanitti and Canseco), but any questions were always shouted down by the group I'll call the "Enablers." They were the "experts" that kept telling us steriods wouldn't really help a baseball player, that it wouldn't affect the game, and that it would only hurt the player. They "Enabled" the criminals (since I'm not allowed to call them cheaters :D ) to perfect the use of illegal steroids to create the HR boom.

MLB, no doubt, was also an "Enabler." They didn't want anything to tarnish the image of the game, and they knew that it would be a up-hill fight to get the Union to agree to steroid testing. Plus, they were making money which is the primary purpose of baseball, right?

The Union was/is the chief "Enabler" in all of this. The orginization that is supposed to primarily take care of their members looked only to the pocketbook, and not to their long-term health. Unions used to strike, not just for greater pay and more benefits, but for the safe conditions for its workers. This supposed Union instead turn its back on its members and would not even begin to hear of banning steroids and drug testing. They did nothing as conditions were being created that encourage illegal drug use within its membership. My personal opinion is that part of the blame for the death of Ken Caminiti can be placed right on Donald Fehr's door.

BTW, I love the question of "naivety" of the reporters. People are naive about what they want to be. Like for instance a man like Bonds would not know he was using steroids and that he was sending other players to a pusher. It takes a whole lot of "naivety" to bite on that hook.

[KWhit]

Good post HomerJ.

I agree 100%

[Arles]

No, it wasn't a big story because we were told that "steriods don't help you hit a curve ball." I remember many times this issue came up (specifically when Brady Anderson hit 50+, and rumors surrounding Ken Camanitti and Canseco), but any questions were always shouted down by the group I'll call the "Enablers." They were the "experts" that kept telling us steriods wouldn't really help a baseball player, that it wouldn't affect the game, and that it would only hurt the player. They "Enabled" the criminals (since I'm not allowed to call them cheaters :D ) to perfect the use of illegal steroids to create the HR boom.
I agree with this.

MLB, no doubt, was also an "Enabler." They didn't want anything to tarnish the image of the game, and they knew that it would be a up-hill fight to get the Union to agree to steroid testing. Plus, they were making money which is the primary purpose of baseball, right?
Correct again.

The Union was/is the chief "Enabler" in all of this. The orginization that is supposed to primarily take care of their members looked only to the pocketbook, and not to their long-term health. Unions used to strike, not just for greater pay and more benefits, but for the safe conditions for its workers. This supposed Union instead turn its back on its members and would not even begin to hear of banning steroids and drug testing. They did nothing as conditions were being created that encourage illegal drug use within its membership. My personal opinion is that part of the blame for the death of Ken Caminiti can be placed right on Donald Fehr's door.
3 for 3 to this point.

BTW, I love the question of "naivety" of the reporters. People are naive about what they want to be. Like for instance a man like Bonds would not know he was using steroids and that he was sending other players to a pusher. It takes a whole lot of "naivety" to bite on that hook.
Are you saying that out of the 300+ beat reporters covering each of the baseball teams, none had any inclination that baseball players were juicing despite clubhouse access for every game?

If you think some did (as would be a fair conclusion), this seems like a perfect opportunity for the media to bring the story to the people and go over the heads of MLB, the players association and the many "enablers" to break this story before it got out of hand. Yet, not one of these hundreds of reporters did this. Either this group is about the most incompetant group of media members ever assembled, or there were some kind of alterior motives in spiking these stories.

[HomerJSimpson]

If you think some did (as would be a fair conclusion), this seems like a perfect opportunity for the media to bring the story to the people and go over the heads of MLB, the players association and the many "enablers" to break this story before it got out of hand. Yet, not one of these hundreds of reporters did this. Either this group is about the most incompetant group of media members ever assembled, or there were some kind of alterior motives in spiking these stories.

Sure there were, but there were stories, questions, and some discussion about it in the media. It was that for every one story or radio talk-show personality questioning steroids in these players, there were five people saying it was a non-issue because it wouldn't really help the player. It took the records falling and (even more) the Balco stuff proving that it did help and was more prominent than they and we were lead to believe.

I'm not defending the press, mind. They were "Enablers" too. I just can't agree that because these groups didn't do their job ten years ago that this a non-story now, or that these actions should be ignored with shrugged shoulders.

[Arles]

I'm not defending the press, mind. They were "Enablers" too. I just can't agree that because these groups didn't do their job ten years ago that this a non-story now, or that these actions should be ignored with shrugged shoulders.
But by continuing to try and prove the "unproveable" in regards to people like McGwire, Palmiero and Sosa, what does anyone gain? Again, this is like trying to close the barn door after all the horses have left. No one is finding some old syringe from 1992 with Mac's finger prints on it or some steroid ledger showing a purchase by McGwire or Sosa. If that evidence did ever exist, it's been long destroyed by now. So, all we have is speculation and parading out the Jose Canseco's and bitter ex-girlfriends selling books as "evidence".

The story should be in trying to put pressure on American Legion, High School, colleges and individual minor league teams to crackdown on this and prevent the use of steroids in baseball. Yet, for every story on this, I hear 30 on how some suspected ex-dealer that was friends with every slugger from Reggie Jackson to Dave Kingman may have mentioned McGwire a while back - but he never accussed him. Wow, talk about a smoking gun.

Put it in a different light, let's say someone like Rafael Palmiero is completely innocent and never did this. Canseco just through his name in because it would get more press than the real player who did this (say Dean Palmer, for argument's sake). How can he "prove" his innocence? Is there anything Palmiero can do to try and salvage his reputation and retire with honor given his great career? Or, is he now guilty because of this media witch-hunt regardless of what ever really happened?

That, IMO, is the shame in all this. There is no hard evidence either way, yet all the media does is keep asking for these guys to "prove their innocence". As if that was a possible task.

[HomerJSimpson]

But by continuing to try and prove the "unproveable" in regards to people like McGwire, Palmiero and Sosa, what does anyone gain? Again, this is like trying to close the barn door after all the horses have left. No one is finding some old syringe from 1992 with Mac's finger prints on it or some steroid ledger showing a purchase by McGwire or Sosa. If that evidence did ever exist, it's been long destroyed by now. So, all we have is speculation and parading out the Jose Canseco's and bitter ex-girlfriends selling books as "evidence".

The story should be in trying to put pressure on American Legion, High School, colleges and individual minor league teams to crackdown on this and prevent the use of steroids in baseball. Yet, for every story on this, I hear 30 on how some suspected ex-dealer that was friends with every slugger from Reggie Jackson to Dave Kingman may have mentioned McGwire a while back - but he never accussed him. Wow, talk about a smoking gun.

Put it in a different light, let's say someone like Rafael Palmiero is completely innocent and never did this. Canseco just through his name in because it would get more press than the real player who did this (say Dean Palmer, for argument's sake). How can he "prove" his innocence? Is there anything Palmiero can do to try and salvage his reputation and retire with honor given his great career? Or, is he now guilty because of this media witch-hunt regardless of what ever really happened?

That, IMO, is the shame in all this. There is no hard evidence either way, yet all the media does is keep asking for these guys to "prove their innocence". As if that was a possible task.

Baseball (including the players) made their bed. They did nothing for ten years. People are going to ask questions, and they are going to speculate, and at this point there is no putting that horse back in the barn. There is some of this that is "proveable." The people involved are not dead. Jeremy Giambi just admitted he did steroids, and as much as admitted his brother did as well. He is a credible eye-witness, and before this is all over there will be more.

Look, the only reason MLB and the Union did anything in November is because of media attention and the "witch-hunt." At this point, he best thing all involved can do is come clean, apologize, take a slap on the wrist (where necessary), and move on. It will go away if you come clean (the American peole are way too forgiving in some cases), but the more you lie and cover, the worse people are going to want to know.


...and the more people insult others intelligence and try to trivialize what happened with "this isn't important" "it wasn't REALLY cheating" and "it is just like getting cortisone shots" then the more arguing there is going to be and the longer this is not going to die.

[Arles]

At this point, he best thing all involved can do is come clean, apologize, take a slap on the wrist (where necessary), and move on. It will go away if you come clean (the American peole are way too forgiving in some cases), but the more you lie and cover, the worse people are going to want to know.
Given the self-righteous tone by the media, I guarantee the first person out of Palmiero, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds that actually admits they used steroids will be the subject of a massive Hall-of-Fame boycott. The story will not go away, it will simply shift from "Did he do it?" to "Since he did do it, should he be in the Hall?" And that debate will go on for years and resurface everytime said person is up for a vote - and that person will not make first ballot.

So, for a Giambi or Canseco, you could be right. It probably will just go away. But for potential Hall-of-Famers, it will just open a new Pandora's box that will haunt them even longer.

and the more people insult others intelligence and try to trivialize what happened with "this isn't important" "it wasn't REALLY cheating" and "it is just like getting cortisone shots" then the more arguing there is going to be and the longer this is not going to die.
No, to be honest, this will keep going until the season starts - then it will go away. Then, when Bonds gets closer to Aaron, it will start back up over the offseason. No "change in tone" will adjust that timeline. The media now dictates how long this story stays in the limelight. Even if Bonds, Mac, Sosa and Palmiero all admitted they used tomorrow, this story would still be in the news next offseason as Bonds closes in on Aaron and McGwire gets closer to being Hall eligibile.

At no point, though, is there any major discussion on fixing the problem as I detailed above. It's a much sexier story to play gossip with Sosa and Palmiero than to actually deal with the steroid problem in lower baseball leagues and High Schools. That's the part that frustrates me. It would be nice to see the tone shift from "I think player X did steroids 10 years ago. I don't have any proof, but let's keep talking about it." to "How can we stop kids from falling into the steroid trap". But I won't hold my breath on that.

[HomerJSimpson]

Given the self-righteous tone by the media, I guarantee the first person out of Palmiero, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds that actually admits they used steroids will be the subject of a massive Hall-of-Fame boycott. The story will not go away, it will simply shift from "Did he do it?" to "Since he did do it, should he be in the Hall?" And that debate will go on for years and resurface everytime said person is up for a vote - and that person will not make first ballot.

So, for a Giambi or Canseco, you could be right. It probably will just go away. But for potential Hall-of-Famers, it will just open a new Pandora's box that will haunt them even longer.


No, to be honest, this will keep going until the season starts - then it will go away. Then, when Bonds gets closer to Aaron, it will start back up over the offseason. No "change in tone" will adjust that timeline. The media now dictates how long this story stays in the limelight. Even if Bonds, Mac, Sosa and Palmiero all admitted they used tomorrow, this story would still be in the news next offseason as Bonds closes in on Aaron and McGwire gets closer to being Hall eligibile.

At no point, though, is there any major discussion on fixing the problem as I detailed above. It's a much sexier story to play gossip with Sosa and Palmiero than to actually deal with the steroid problem in lower baseball leagues and High Schools. That's the part that frustrates me. It would be nice to see the tone shift from "I think player X did steroids 10 years ago. I don't have any proof, but let's keep talking about it." to "How can we stop kids from falling into the steroid trap". But I won't hold my breath on that.


I disagree with your read, but now we at complete speculation on what the American people and the media will do. I think your right that people will be at the ballpark, but I don't agree that this story will go away. i also don't agree at all that it would not be better for those involved to admit mistakes and ask for forgiveness. Over and over, the public has overlooked great flaws in those who come clean, but never forget those who continue to lie and deny.

[Arles]

Over and over, the public has overlooked great flaws in those who come clean, but never forget those who continue to lie and deny.
But the public does not vote for the Hall of Fame, the baseball writers do. And if you think that group of mostly ornery old baseball traditionalists that are already bitter at McGwire and Bonds for breaking the records of the great Maris and Aaron will overlook verified steroid use and vote for them into the hall, you are fooling yourself. I'm telling you, the first guy that admits this will be faced with a Hall-of-Fame boycott by the sanctimonious writers unprecedented in baseball history.

Atleast if it's just speculation, they can't pull this in mass.

[HomerJSimpson]

But the public does not vote for the Hall of Fame, the baseball writers do. And if you think that group of mostly ornery old baseball traditionalists that are already bitter at McGwire and Bonds for breaking the records of the great Maris and Aaron will overlook verified steroid use and vote for them into the hall, you are fooling yourself. I'm telling you, the first guy that admits this will be faced with a Hall-of-Fame boycott by the sanctimonious writers unprecedented in baseball history.

Atleast if it's just speculation, they can't pull this in mass.


Think not? I'd say it is more likely.