Congress and steroids in baseball.

[SackAttack]

Among the other furor - namely, who's going to testify? - I found this little snippet in an AP article:

Less than 24 hours before the start of the highly anticipated hearing, Jose Canseco's request for immunity was denied by the House Government Reform committee, which also revealed that baseball's drug-testing agreement contains a provision that testing would be "suspended immediately'' if the government conducts an independent investigation into drug use in baseball.

So, I have two questions here.

1) If Congress is really concerned about rooting out steroids in baseball, why conduct the investigation knowing that clause exists?

2) What's the point of that clause? To avoid creating evidence that Congress can then use to publicly reveal the cheaters?

[rkmsuf]

If that is written into the baseball rules I say shut the whole sport down.

It's run like a carnival.

[Deattribution]

It's run like a carnival.

Congressional hearings start Thursday at 10 a.m. ET on ESPN.

ESPN's front page footnote.

[Arles]

1) If Congress is really concerned about rooting out steroids in baseball, why conduct the investigation knowing that clause exists?

I'll do you one better - why not focus on use in the minors/college, high school and American Legion teams? That's where you will be able to make a difference for the better. Then again, senators wouldn't get much grandstanding coverage talking to Joe Schmo American Legion coach as they would Jose Canseco.

2) What's the point of that clause? To avoid creating evidence that Congress can then use to publicly reveal the cheaters?
From what I understand, baseball is allowed to track names, dates and results for every test per the collective bargaining. This was added to prevent players from being forced to potentially incriminate themselves by failing a test during a congressional investigation.

Another interesting sidenote on this is that congress originally asked specifically for the names of every player that failed a steroids test in the past few seasons. MLB fought this and eventually was able to provide the congressional group with simply the results with names blacked out.

The more that comes out on this, the more it seems like congress is more interesting in trying to expose players that cheated then they are in solving the problem (especially among young kids).

[rkmsuf]

Isn't exposing the cheaters working towards solving the problem?

How else can this be solved than from top down when the system clearly rewards professional players generously and laughs in the face of everyone? Great, kids are clean in high school, college, get to the show and roid up. Wonderful.

I mean f-ing a. Can't MLB do what's right in spite of some of their precious money and ridiculous infighting?

[Fritz]

1.) Congress grants immunity to get something from the people testifying. Why would they grant Canseco immunity when they have his book?

2.) If Congress has some interest in drug abuse in an industry, why in the world would they need a list of specific employees? If this were drug use in trucking, they probably wouldn't be looking at specific truckers.

[Desnudo]

Isn't exposing the cheaters working towards solving the problem?

How else can this be solved than from top down when the system clearly rewards professional players generously and laughs in the face of everyone? Great, kids are clean in high school, college, get to the show and roid up. Wonderful.

I mean f-ing a. Can't MLB do what's right in spite of some of their precious money and ridiculous infighting?

If something like this happened to Barry Bonds, I think people would stop using steroids in a hurry:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/pics/88aupdate3.jpg

[SlapBone]

Canseco is a money-grubbin publicity whore. He needs an ass-whippin for writing that book and this is NOT because he blew the cover off underground steroids use in MLB, it's because he's a loser that wrote a book that jammed everyone who may have called him a friend.

I agree that these guys need to get off the juice, but it's starting to turn into a witch-hunt.

[Anthony]

and rightfully so. they've profited immensely from the padded stats that juicing brings. don't go turning them into victims. if you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for all the players who were legit and got pushed out of the league because their numbers weren't as gaudy as the roid-using players.

[yabanci]

....1) If Congress is really concerned about rooting out steroids in baseball, why conduct the investigation knowing that clause exists?....

Because congress doesn't care about that clause. If baseball wants to play hardball with congress, congress merely has to threaten the withdrawal of baseball's antitrust exemption and baseball will dance like a puppet on a string.

[randal7]

This gives me hope for the future. I will sleep well knowing my elected representatives are hard at work on the serious issues of the day.

[Ragone]

Somewhere pete rose is smiling.. with jose canseco's book he's no longer the most despised man in baseball :)

[Tekneek]

Somewhere pete rose is smiling.. with jose canseco's book he's no longer the most despised man in baseball :)

But these steroid junkies have a better chance of getting into the Hall of Fame than Pete Rose does.

[Ragone]

But these steroid junkies have a better chance of getting into the Hall of Fame than Pete Rose does.

Meanwhile Racist ty cobb and downright crook denny mcclain are in the hof..

yes.. lets maintain the integrity of the hof.. i just can't wait for the cream and clear wing of the Hall of fame to be built

[HomerJSimpson]

Meanwhile Racist ty cobb and downright crook denny mcclain are in the hof..

yes.. lets maintain the integrity of the hof.. i just can't wait for the cream and clear wing of the Hall of fame to be built


As much as I despise steroids, those players didn't have a sign they looked at every day that told them steroids would get them banned from baseball. Comparing them to Pete Rose is apples/oranges.

[Ragone]

A good step to getting roids outta baseball would be to say outfront.. anyone admitting to our testing positive to roids is barred from consideration from hof.. TAKE THAT BONDS! :P

[HomerJSimpson]

A good step to getting roids outta baseball would be to say outfront.. anyone admitting to our testing positive to roids is barred from consideration from hof.. TAKE THAT BONDS! :P


From this point forward. You couldn't make that retro-active.

[Celeval]

FYI, the hearings are live on CSPAN-3, or via RealPlayer at http://www.cspan.org/

[Anthony]

Meanwhile Racist ty cobb and downright crook denny mcclain are in the hof..



what does Cobb's personal views have to do with his statistics? you gonna ban people from the Hall based on where they stand on the abortion issue, too?

it's the Hall of Fame for baseball, not the Hall of Fame for political correctness.

[rkmsuf]

FYI, the hearings are live on CSPAN-3, or via RealPlayer at http://www.cspan.org/

I wouldn't want to fight Eliajah Cummings.

[Celeval]

Possibly the first time Jim Bunting ever batted leadoff.

[Klinglerware]

what does Cobb's personal views have to do with his statistics?

Well, the argument could be made that if Cobb (maybe) or Cap Anson (definitely) tried to keep black players out of professional baseball--their stats benefitted from not having as high a level of competition as they could have had if black players were in the league...

[rkmsuf]

Possibly the first time Jim Bunting ever batted leadoff.

He's pissed.

[Philliesfan980]

I really hope that Congress does step in and take control of whats going on with the Baseball steriod mess, and mearly for selfish reasons. I'd love to go back to the days where 35 home runs actually meant something, and good team defense and a stolen base guy were valuable.

[KWhit]

Interesting stuff here:

According to the official baseball plan:

A player who fails a test - 1st offense:

10 day suspension

OR

A fine up to $10,000 (and the offender is NOT named).


So for a first offense, a player could be fined $1, not suspended, and not named. That is very different from what MLB has led us to believe.

[Philliesfan980]

Interesting stuff here:

According to the official baseball plan:

A player who fails a test - 1st offense:

10 day suspension

OR

A fine up to $10,000 (and the offender is NOT named).


So for a first offense, a player could be fined $1, not suspended, and not named. That is very different from what MLB has led us to believe.

I love baseball, but I hate the players association, that plan is a complete joke. Comon Congress, kick their ass.

[Klinglerware]

I really hope that Congress does step in and take control of whats going on with the Baseball steriod mess, and mearly for selfish reasons. I'd love to go back to the days where 35 home runs actually meant something, and good team defense and a stolen base guy were valuable.

Not gonna happen--ballparks are too small, the astroturf is going away. Speed and defense are not going to be an important part of the game for the forseeable future...

[Ksyrup]

I hope they try to engage Jose Canseco in the same kind of light-hearted discussion that they are with Bunning...

"Mr. Canseco, before we start, let me just say that I enjoyed your defensive prowess on the baseball field. A bit of trivia, let me ask you, who was the pitcher who got charged with a HR after you misplayed that ball off your head and over the fence?"

[rkmsuf]

I hope they try to engage Jose Canseco in the same kind of light-hearted discussion that they are with Bunning...

"Mr. Canseco, before we start, let me just say that I enjoyed your defensive prowess on the baseball field. A bit of trivia, let me ask you, who was the pitcher who got charged with a HR after you misplayed that ball off your head and over the fence?"

Bunning is one of their own. I suspect they will turn the heat up on them just based on some of their opening statements.

I thought Bunning was less that brilliant up there though. An hour from him was way too much.

[rkmsuf]

Nora, I can't understand a f-ing word you are saying.

[KWhit]

Bunning is one of their own. I suspect they will turn the heat up on them just based on some of their opening statements.

I thought Bunning was less that brilliant up there though. An hour from him was way too much.
I thought Bunning did an excellent job.

[Klinglerware]

I thought Bunning was less that brilliant up there though.

Didn't Bunning almost lose the election last year because of allegations that he wasn't completely together mentally?

[rkmsuf]

Didn't Bunning almost lose the election last year because of allegations that he wasn't completely together mentally?

No idea but he called the NFL "Major League Football".

He was ok...maybe it was just the length and the first question they asked him went right over his head and he went off on a stupid tangent about erasing records.

[sterlingice]

I love baseball, but I hate the players association, that plan is a complete joke. Comon Congress, kick their ass.
I agree but, wow, it's slimy. Rooting for Congress against the MLBPA (because you know if management had their way, they'd have a crazy policy tho for all the wrong reasons).

SI

[KWhit]

An interesting argument has been made a couple of times today.

The fact that steroid use is tolerated by MLB causes all players to feel the need to use steroids to compete. This causes the employees of MLB to go through serious health risks while on the job, causing an unsafe work environment.

A couple of hints have been dropped that this could lead to a rewriting of labor law to ensure tougher policies are instituted.

[Fonzie]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/03/17/sports/17ster.jpg

[rkmsuf]

dashing

[KWhit]

A scientist is shooting huge holes in MLB's new plan right now.

[rkmsuf]

Doctor catfight!

[rkmsuf]

Pellman got b*tchslapped!

[bosshogg23]

Denny McClain is not in the Hall of Fame. He did several years in jail for his pension theft so he got what he deserved.

Didn't Bunning almost lose the election last year because of allegations that he wasn't completely together mentally?

Ya Bunning's people didnt let him have press conferences with open questions. This during the middle of a campaign. He is off his rocker apparently.

[rkmsuf]

oh, Pellman, Pellman, Pellman.

Major League Baseball Advisor extrodinaire.

Strike one MLB.

What a boob. Not only has he no clue, he's darn annoying the way he's talking.

[KWhit]

The players are coming into the room now.

[Fonzie]

The players are coming into the room now.

Are McGwire and Canseco both in the room?

I'd love to see a good ol' fashioned rhubarb erupt.

[Celeval]

Yep, all the players are lined up apparently at the same table.


How long has Sosa been here? He's having his interpreter read his statement? Heh.

[KWhit]

Sosa denies ever using steroids.

[rkmsuf]

Yep, all the players are lined up apparently at the same table.


How long has Sosa been here? He's having his interpreter read his statement? Heh.

it's his lawyer and I'm sure Sosa understands every word and speaks perfect english when needed.

[Fonzie]

Sosa denies ever using steroids.

Really, Sammy? Well, I guess that settles that. Thanks for coming! ;)

[KWhit]

McGwire seems like he is about to cry.

[rkmsuf]

McGwire is crying. Are you sh*tting me?

There's no crying in Congressional hearings!

[Fonzie]

McGwire is crying. Are you sh*tting me?

What is he saying?

Edit: sorry to ask annoying questions, I don't have access to TV right now.

[Ksyrup]

Why isn't this on cspan.org?

[rkmsuf]

McGwire will a b*tchslap to Canseco.

[rkmsuf]

Why isn't this on cspan.org?

It is

CSPAN3

[bosshogg23]

I wonder what the ratings on that hearing are gonna be. Have to be pretty big even though its up against the tournament.

[Fonzie]

McGwire will a b*tchslap to Canseco.

God I wish I could be watching this.

[KWhit]

McGwire said that there has been a problem with steroids in baseball. He refuses to name names or implicate others, but would support tougher testing measures. He then refused to answer questions on the advice of his lawyers.

And he took a couple of shots at Canseco.

[rkmsuf]

Palmero, slight note...when addressing the chairman it's wise not to keep pointing at him.

[KWhit]

Palmeiro denies using steroids.

[KWhit]

BTW, McGwire did not deny using steroids. He sort of side-stepped that issue.

[KWhit]

Schilling is killing Conseco right now.

[rkmsuf]

That whole table has taken shots at poor Jose.

Schilling is giving him a verbal beatdown.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

God I wish I could be watching this.
Fonzie, here's a video stream (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?channel=i_video&clip=LiveWebCast&BaseName=livenews&title=Live$@$Coverage&castNum=1&mediaType=wmv)

[Ksyrup]

It is

CSPAN3
I watched this morning without a problem, but now all I get is a screen with the CSPAN logo on it. Very odd.

[rkmsuf]

go to cspan.org home page. click watch. I clicked stand alone windows media under cspan3 on the right hand side.

[rkmsuf]

questions start at 3:15 eastern.

[Fonzie]

Fonzie, here's a video stream (http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?channel=i_video&clip=LiveWebCast&BaseName=livenews&title=Live$@$Coverage&castNum=1&mediaType=wmv)

Cool. Thanks Farrah!

[Ksyrup]

I see that now (just in time for a break). This morning I just had the in-page screen going so I could listen. Thanks.

[wbatl1]

Are the players finished now? I cannot tell from my feed.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Are the players finished now? I cannot tell from my feed.
I think they're on a 20 minute break.

[Suicane75]

So McGwire didn't nut up and say he had never used steroids? Just a few weeks ago he did, what happened? Heh.

[Fonzie]

So McGwire didn't nut up and say he had never used steroids? Just a few weeks ago he did, what happened? Heh.

Sure does make one wonder, doesn't it?

[rkmsuf]

Don't they eat lunch in Congress? No lunch break.

[bosshogg23]

They work 2 days a week for 3 months a year.

They dont need no stinkin' lunch break.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Don't they eat lunch in Congress? No lunch break.
The House is adjorning for Easter break in two hours , they're probably rushing through so they can get out of there..

[Danny]

I've watched the whole thing so far while flipping to the NCAA during breaks.

[Suicane75]

The House is adjorning for Easter break in two hours , they're probably rushing through so they can get out of there..

They've gotta be staying longer than that, they still have so many people and questions to go thru.

[rkmsuf]

What are they voting on? Resolutions regarding off track betting in the Hymalyas or something?

[rkmsuf]

They've gotta be staying longer than that, they still have so many people and questions to go thru.

Fehr and Selig come on at 5:00 Eastern.

[wbatl1]

They've gotta be staying longer than that, they still have so many people and questions to go thru.

That is the House, not the committee. So the members of the comittee are voting, trying to finish the buisness in the House, but will also finish their committee work.

[sterlingice]

Where are you guys watching this? CSpan and CSpan2 has budget things and CourtTV is wasting their time on Scott Pederson (has there even been a more worthless high profile case).

SI

[Suicane75]

ESPN, amd M&TMD on Yes are listening to the audio while on the air.

[Celeval]

CSPAN-3 has it. I'm watching on cspan.org

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Seems like the players are side stepping the questions.

[Eaglesfan27]

McGwire is side stepping the most. I'm disappointed in him.

[Ksyrup]

Holy crap is McGwire coming off bad. I don't know who advised him, but he could have sidestepped all of these questions and not come off like he's got a syringe stuck in his butt.

"Steroids is bad, m'kay?"

[NAIWF]

Nice to see McGwire finally get what he's deserved all along. Other than that, this whole hearing has been bogus, and a waste of time. Hopefully Selig & Fehr actually have something to say.

[rexallllsc]

A couple of the members were really embarrassing. The chick from Michigan comes to mind.

Also, they showed an old clip of Maxine Waters (D-CA) questioning Selig, and after he was talking, she said thrice, "I remind you that you're under oath!" which was really strange, and puzzled Bud because more than anything, it sounded like she just wanted to say that as if she were playing a part in "A Few Good Men"

Anyways, the interesting part to me was the review with the guy who works with the World Anti-Doping Agency. If Baseball wants to take this seriously, they should handle this like soccer does (I think?). Take two guys (randomly) right after the game and watch them piss. Maybe one of our overseas friends can correct me if I'm wrong.

[rexallllsc]

McGwire is side stepping the most. I'm disappointed in him.

The saddest thing is that we can't take back those records.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

A couple of the members were really embarrassing. The chick from Michigan comes to mind.

Also, they showed an old clip of Maxine Waters (D-CA) questioning Selig, and after he was talking, she said thrice, "I remind you that you're under oath!" which was really strange, and puzzled Bud because more than anything, it sounded like she just wanted to say that as if she were playing a part in "A Few Good Men"
Maxine Waters is an idiot.

[KWhit]

Sosa just agrees with whatever is said before him.

[KWhit]

And is it me or is Canseco coming off the best of anyone (with the possible exception of Schilling)?

[Eaglesfan27]

And is it me or is Canseco coming off the best of anyone (with the possible exception of Schilling)?
I think Rafael is coming off reasonably well.

[Ryan S]

Canseco is using this as a promotional appearance for his book.

[sterlingice]

Canseco is using this as a promotional appearance for his book. Yeah, you got that impression, too? He looks like a salesman.

SI

[stevew]

Schilling just called Canseco a liar.

[sterlingice]

"How much?"
"I dunno"
"I dunno"
"I dunno"
"I dunno"
"I dunno"
"I dunno"
"Buy my book"

SI

[sterlingice]

I do agree with Conseco, tho. If you let baseball police itself, we'll be back in the same place a year from now. But there won't be the media attention.

SI

[KWhit]

Canseco is definitely playing the "everybody thank me for bringing this issue into the light" card.

[Ryan S]

Is it just me, or is Kucinich using this as an opportunity for a publicised rant.

[TazFTW]

Why did Kucinich(sp?) start speaking spanish?

[Ryan S]

And to show off his Spanish skills.....

[KWhit]

McGwire (No matter what question is asked): "I'm not sure, but there's a reason that we're here. To fix it."

[KWhit]

Something I just learned. If you ask a question and nobody answers it, explain why you asked it, and in a very rambling uncomfortable manner ask it again. Oh yeah, and still you will get no answer.

[rexallllsc]

Is it just me, or is Kucinich using this as an opportunity for a publicised rant.

Definitely....btw, did you know that I can speak Spanish? ;)

[Ksyrup]

I do agree with Conseco, tho. If you let baseball police itself, we'll be back in the same place a year from now. But there won't be the media attention.

SI
What makes baseball different than football? Why wasn't football in this exact position years ago, where they enacted a policy and people didn't want to give them the chance to make it work without governmental intervention? Everyone seems to think they have zero problems now, so why can't baseball be in the same position 10 years from now? I don't get it.

[Ryan S]

There have been a few ranters, including the guy from Vermont who laid into the press.

[Arles]

The saddest thing is that we can't take back those records.
What record does McGwire have? The only one I can think of is most HRs by a rookie (well before he could have started doping).

[KWhit]

What makes baseball different than football? Why wasn't football in this exact position years ago, where they enacted a policy and people didn't want to give them the chance to make it work without governmental intervention? Everyone seems to think they have zero problems now, so why can't baseball be in the same position 10 years from now? I don't get it.
Do you have any faith that Selig and Fehr will do anything substantial? Especially with all the loopholes in the proposed new plan.

[KWhit]

What record does McGwire have? The only one I can think of is most HRs by a rookie (well before he could have started doping).
I guess Bonds isn't juicing?

[sterlingice]

What makes baseball different than football? Why wasn't football in this exact position years ago, where they enacted a policy and people didn't want to give them the chance to make it work without governmental intervention? Everyone seems to think they have zero problems now, so why can't baseball be in the same position 10 years from now? I don't get it.
What makes baseball different than football is that in MLB, the PA has the ownership over a barrell so they can't do a steroid policy with teeth. Frankly, I don't think this is Congress's business, but if they're going to waste time on it, make something come of it.

SI

[sabotai]

Is this woman using all of her time to give biographies of all the players? Geez. QUESTIONS, dear woman. You're there to ask questions.

[HomerJSimpson]

What makes baseball different than football? Why wasn't football in this exact position years ago, where they enacted a policy and people didn't want to give them the chance to make it work without governmental intervention? Everyone seems to think they have zero problems now, so why can't baseball be in the same position 10 years from now? I don't get it.


Because the NFL and the NFLPA are not nearly as big of incompetent idiots as the morons that run baseball.

[KWhit]

Is this woman using all of her time to give biographies of all the players? Geez. QUESTIONS, dear woman. You're there to ask questions.
Yeah. That was just silly.

[Arles]

I guess Bonds isn't juicing?

Here's the context of my comment:


McGwire is side stepping the most. I'm disappointed in him.

The saddest thing is that we can't take back those records.

As an aside, not one thing in this entire spectacle has helped address the problem of young kids using steroids.

[sabotai]

Damn McGwire, just answer the friggin' question.

[sterlingice]

What record does McGwire have? The only one I can think of is most HRs by a rookie (well before he could have started doping).
Most home runs in a season by a non-asshat? http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

SI

[TazFTW]

Since I haven't watched it all, has Frank Thomas been involved via teleconferencing?

[rexallllsc]

What record does McGwire have? The only one I can think of is most HRs by a rookie (well before he could have started doping).

His record(s). Sure, he might not have the #1 HR in a season record, but he's #2. Then again, since we can't prove anything it wouldn't be right...

This falls at the feet of MLB for letting guys get away with this.

[sterlingice]

Why do congress(wo)men ask for answers to questions they already know? Stop grandstanding and do your job (wait, that is their job, isn't it?)

SI

[sterlingice]

This falls at the feet of MLB for letting guys get away with this.
You negotiate this into the next CBA, then.

SI

[rexallllsc]

Why do congress(wo)men ask for answers to questions they already know? Stop grandstanding and do your job (wait, that is their job, isn't it?)

SI

It's really eye-opening. No, not the steroid thing, but how weak some of these people are.

These are the people representing us :(

[stevew]

Schilling is gonna be president some day(if he wants to be).

[KWhit]

Here's the context of my comment:
Yeah. i saw that it was right after a McGwire comment, but I took it to mean steroid users in general.

[sterlingice]

http://www.atomicbaboon.com/blog/images/lovejoy.gif

I love how, in the end, this all comes down to "Won't someone please think of the children"

SI

[sterlingice]

Yeah. i saw that it was right after a McGwire comment, but I took it to mean steroid users in general.
I love his comment just now that can be translated to

"Hi, I'm in favor of whatever doesn't get me to have to come here and keep saying 'i take the fifth' this time next year"

SI

[castorius]

Couple of observations:

By McGwire's responses, I don't know how any of us could think he wasn't on steroids. Have you seen the way he reacts to the questions. Seems like he's getting a bit nervous there, like he's hiding something. I can't think of any other reason to not just say "I've never used steroids before". I understand not implicating anybody else, but he won't even say about not having ever used steroids. This tells me that he did use something at some point and doesn't want to lie. I was leaning towards McGwire using steroids prior to this hearing, after this hearing, I'm almost 99% sure.

I also think Sosa might've snuck his way out of not lying. In the statement released by his representative, he claimed to have "never used illegal performance enhancing drugs". Couldn't that be interpreted as "drugs that were never illegal in baseball". Which would include steroids, since steroids were never illegal in baseball at the time. Also, if it is later revealed that he does and has taken steroids, couldn't he just say my interpreter mistinterpreted what I said. I told him to say that "I never took drugs that were illegal in baseball" or just say I meant to say "I'm not taking illegal performance enhancing drugs now" or some other twisted way to get out of it, since he used an interpreter? Sosa can speak english, who's he kidding? Yes, not that well, but he can say on his own "I never took steroids". That's all the public really wants to hear, not this bs that we're getting now, running around questions and this other waste of time.

I really don't believe Sosa, he's one of the main guys that I was pretty sure was on the juice. Palmeiro I'm not so sure, I never really thought of it till Canseco brought it up. I'm not liking Schilling much either, he just comes off as pro-MLBPA and an Anti-Jose Cansecoist. As little respect as I have for Canseco, Schilling seems to be avoiding alot of the key issues that need to be discussed. He just seems to be defending the union and his fellow players, and not addressing the problem. Do we really need a "pro-player rep" representing the task force against steroids? Schilling comes across as a guy who'll turn the other cheek to a player using steroids. To him it seems like a player's rights are more important than the integrity of the game (as well as the health of the rest of society). He's simply out there to defend the players. Players are a huge part of the reason we have this problem. We can't very well have the players be the ones regulating themselves, which is why Schilling is a bad person for this task force.

[HomerJSimpson]

As an aside, not one thing in this entire spectacle has helped address the problem of young kids using steroids.


Yes it has. To get it out of the playgrounds, you've got to get it out of the Major Leagues. One thing we have confirmed in this hearing is MLB and the PA are not interested in doing that, and their agreement has no teeth. Now with congress breathing down their necks, something just might be done.

[castorius]

Furthermore, as far as I recall, McGwire hasn't directly pleaded the fifth yet has he? I know in his opening statement he said he would. But nobody has directly asked him a question that has caused him to need to plead the 5th. When a few came close, he hesistated, stalled, and there was a murmur going on. He never directly said "I plead the 5th". I know one congressman asked if he would like to plead the 5th, but McGwire didn't directly answer, he just said "uh...mm.." and stalled. Like he wanted to avoid the question and even avoid saying "I plead the 5th". I've missed a few segments so maybe I missed it. Has he directly flat out said "I plead the 5th" in a clear voice? (not counting his opening statement that didn't directly say he pleads the 5th, but it rather just says "he will plead the 5th if asked certain types of questions")

Does anybody else find McGwire's "I'm not here to talk about the past" annoying?

[sterlingice]

I don't think he has. Because, really, everyone knows what that means. If you speak around it, there's no confirmation. But if you say "I plead the fifth" then everyone sees him as guilty.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

this whole hearing from what I heard was basically a waste of time. Did the committee really think they'd get anyone to NOT plead the 5th? At least not without immunity. It's a dog-and-pony show.

[Anthony]

I've lost all respect for McGwire after today. another American hero has fallen.

[Anthony]

today's hearings were such a waste. i don't believe i've been listening for 1.5 hours. what did anyone think these players were gonna say anyway. McGwire is a fucking farce.

[Anthony]

that Serrano guy gave a great speech. i agreed with everything he said.

man, these roiding players should be ashamed of themselves.

[sterlingice]

today's hearings were such a waste. i don't believe i've been listening for 1.5 hours. what did anyone think these players were gonna say anyway. McGwire is a fucking farce.
But aren't they all? Schilling espouses the MLBPA line and Palmeiro and Sosa just stand there nodding. McGwire won't say a thing and Canseco is hawking a book and pulled back his statements after being threatened or coerced by whoever.

SI

[Desnudo]

I'm not sure what we could have hoped for, which is why the whole thing was a farce before it began. "Yes Senator, I injected my body with an illegal drug for a five year period. Additionally, please allow me to name all the players that I know did the same."

[sterlingice]

I'm not sure what we could have hoped for, which is why the whole thing was a farce before it began. "Yes Senator, I injected my body with an illegal drug for a five year period. Additionally, please allow me to name all the players that I know did the same."
Damn, where's Uncle Joe when you need him. Wait, I guess that whole witch hunt turned out to be a bad idea.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm not sure what we could have hoped for, which is why the whole thing was a farce before it began. "Yes Senator, I injected my body with an illegal drug for a five year period. Additionally, please allow me to name all the players that I know did the same."
exactly. wasn't going to happen. and i think that's what most fans (myself included) want to happen. And we're not ever going to get that I don't think. But personally I'm so pissed at baseball and the way they're handling this that even though my Sox won the WS last year and everything, I can't get myself excited about this year all that much.

Because I want to see all the guilty players publicy named, banned from baseball FOR LIFE (including Hall of Fame) and have their career stats STRICKEN from the books. Not just the record books, all the books. As if they'd never played. And for all those people who say you can't do that because you don't know when they started juicing, I submit that by juicing and cheating they loose their rights to have their stats kept at all.

[sovereignstar]

http://the-dkbl.com/roger.jpg

[kingfc22]

McGwire is a fucking farce.
Yea and majority of the people were kissing his ass just a few years back.

[Klinglerware]

Because I want to see all the guilty players publicy named, banned from baseball FOR LIFE (including Hall of Fame) and have their career stats STRICKEN from the books. Not just the record books, all the books. As if they'd never played.

Wow, that's a pretty "Egyptian Pharaoh" way to go.

I'd leave the record books alone--no matter what the era, someone can make a claim the records are of little comparative value anyway (e.g., no black players, pitchers threw underhanded, dead ball, live ball, no outfield fences, short porches, greenies, 154 vs 162 games, the DH, mound height, pitching usage strategy changes, etc.)...

[MikeVic]

I watched a chunk of it... saw the questioning and answers.

Schilling thinks baseball can police itself, and thinks there's 5-10 players in the last FIFTEEN years that took steroids??? Wha??

I liked Palmeiro the best on that side of the table. He came out and said that if the union wants to have a 1 strike and you're out policy, he'd accept it. Seems like he'd let congress make a plan if it ended this whole thing.

McGwire was an idiot. "I'm not here to answer about the past" when one of the congress members asked something like "what responsibilities do you think teammates have to each other?" That pissed me off a lot.

Sosa had no thought of his own. Just agreed with whatever the hell was said last.

And although Canseco was kind of... Canseco, he answered everything, even when a member pointed out that his book says we should embrace steroids. Atleast Canseco didn't dodge anything.

I liked that one speech given by the guy guy said something in the end like :it makes me proud as a Latino..." when he talked about why he likes baseball.

I didn't like that red-faced guy that started ranting about what else congress does. :P

[Danny]

I thought the discussion with the doctors was the most useful thus far.

Regarding the players, Schilling is a politician up there, Sosa seems confused and is useless to the discussion. Palmeiro may not be helping much, but he at least seems genuine to me. Canseco handled himself well today, but his book and other things takes away his credibility. McGwire is a farce.

[ISiddiqui]

Wow, that's a pretty "Egyptian Pharaoh" way to go.

I'd leave the record books alone--no matter what the era, someone can make a claim the records are of little comparative value anyway (e.g., no black players, pitchers threw underhanded, dead ball, live ball, no outfield fences, short porches, greenies, 154 vs 162 games, the DH, mound height, pitching usage strategy changes, etc.)...
Exactly. People think steroids are soooo horrible that records should be stricken. What a joke. What about players who popped greenies like Tic-Tacs in the 60s? What about players who didn't play against black players? What about players who ACTUALLY violated the rules (such as spitball pitchers, some of whom are in the HoF)?

It's silly to see steroid use as so bad while all those other things are tolerated. I guess if we are going to be taking away Bonds' records, I want Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays out of the record books for their taking of amphetamines (greenies).

[Klinglerware]

Exactly. People think steroids are soooo horrible that records should be stricken. What a joke. What about players who popped greenies like Tic-Tacs in the 60s? What about players who didn't play against black players? What about players who ACTUALLY violated the rules (such as spitball pitchers, some of whom are in the HoF)?

It's silly to see steroid use as so bad while all those other things are tolerated. I guess if we are going to be taking away Bonds' records, I want Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays out of the record books for their taking of amphetamines (greenies).

Doctored balls--I forgot about that one. Gaylord Perry's famous spitball got him in the Hall of Fame. Don Sutton also admitted to scuffing baseballs...

[Ragone]

that Serrano guy gave a great speech. i agreed with everything he said.



I say Chinga Tay Jobu, i do it myself

[sterlingice]

I didn't like that red-faced guy that started ranting about what else congress does. :P
Screw that, I agree with him 100%. Where the fuck is the round the clock coverage on the budget or health care or social security? I love baseball- they could strike 10 times before now and I died and I'll still be a baseball fan. But this is still baseball, yet there's more attention to it than anything Congress has done in the last month.

SI

[sterlingice]

This owner stuff is so telling.

Fehr looks like his same weasly, lawyerly self. "No sir, you're not quite right there" and then loses people on the point because no one wants to hear his voice and they know he's lying through his teeth.

Then there's Selig and Manfred completely contradicting each other and it shows why they look like the Keystone Cops whenever they go up against Fehr. The right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. With Selig jumping up every once in a while in a teacher's pet esque "I love that idea!"

EDIT: Then again, I guess that'll help their cause because they seem so incompetent that they couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight.

SI

[Danny]

Based on what I just heard, steroids were banned in the 90's, but there wasn't testing for it? Is this correct?

[NAIWF]

Manfred just fucked himself by saying there was NO document on March 2nd, even though there was an announcement by Selig in January. Best moment of the whole hearing so far.

[Desnudo]

Screw that, I agree with him 100%. Where the fuck is the round the clock coverage on the budget or health care or social security?
SI

C-SPAN

[sterlingice]

Manfred just fucked himself by saying there was NO document on March 2nd, even though there was an announcement by Selig in January. Best moment of the whole hearing so far.
Like I said, it looks so much like the Commish and Manfred just are so scattered and useless. Who's going to believe that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum even knew there were baseball games going on much less steroids in baseball.

SI

[MikeVic]

Screw that, I agree with him 100%. Where the fuck is the round the clock coverage on the budget or health care or social security? I love baseball- they could strike 10 times before now and I died and I'll still be a baseball fan. But this is still baseball, yet there's more attention to it than anything Congress has done in the last month.

SI

Oh, sorry, I posted it incorrectly... I didn't mean that I didn't like what he had to say (I agree with him and with you). I just meant that it came at a weird time, since a few people before him just said something about congress not doing this to grandstand and get media attention... and then this guy goes and talks about something not relating to the case. I guess I found it more funny than hating it.

[sterlingice]

Oh, sorry, I posted it incorrectly... I didn't mean that I didn't like what he had to say (I agree with him and with you). I just meant that it came at a weird time, since a few people before him just said something about congress not doing this to grandstand and get media attention... and then this guy goes and talks about something not relating to the case. I guess I found it more funny than hating it.
Heck, I complained about the grandstanding. But this one seemed topical.

SI

[Tekneek]

I saw a few minutes of the campaign commercial, oh I mean, "steroids in baseball" hearing. What a joke. I consider it an insult that anyone's tax money was taken to finance this. Shame on CNN and anyone else who showed it live, because this is really a non-story compared to a lot of other things that have happened in D.C. over the last few years that were not given similar coverage.

[Danny]

I saw a few minutes of the campaign commercial, oh I mean, "steroids in baseball" hearing. What a joke. I consider it an insult that anyone's tax money was taken to finance this. Shame on CNN and anyone else who showed it live, because this is really a non-story compared to a lot of other things that have happened in D.C. over the last few years that were not given similar coverage.

How often do you watch C-Span 1, 2 and 3? One day is certainly worthwhile to investigate this issue. Sure, it's getting more attention on the sports stations and probably in the general media, but that doesn't mean it is getting more attention from congress.

[Tekneek]

How often do you watch C-Span 1, 2 and 3? One day is certainly worthwhile to investigate this issue. Sure, it's getting more attention on the sports stations and probably in the general media, but that doesn't mean it is getting more attention from congress.

I never watch C-SPAN3 because DirecTV does not carry it. I have watched significant portions of C-SPAN and C-SPAN2 over time, although I have not watched that much lately. I still don't see the point. If it is a federal crime like a few of them were quick to champion, why aren't they calling in the DEA/FBI to investigate the entire league with criminal subpoenas? Oh, because calling some hearings with famous names is going to get everyone in the committee on prime time TV and in all the newspapers? That's what it looks and sounds like to me. Baseball can regulate itself. If they think baseball is conspiring to cover up a criminal steroid enterprise, they should send in law enforcement.

It *is* shameful that this sort of thing gets more play in the media overall than real business that actually might impact everyone's life.

[Danny]

I never watch C-SPAN3 because DirecTV does not carry it. I have watched significant portions of C-SPAN and C-SPAN2 over time, although I have not watched that much lately. I still don't see the point. If it is a federal crime like a few of them were quick to champion, why aren't they calling in the DEA/FBI to investigate the entire league with criminal subpoenas? Oh, because calling some hearings with famous names is going to get everyone in the committee on prime time TV and in all the newspapers? That's what it looks and sounds like to me. Baseball can regulate itself. If they think baseball is conspiring to cover up a criminal steroid enterprise, they should send in law enforcement.

It *is* shameful that this sort of thing gets more play in the media overall than real business that actually might impact everyone's life.

Understood and I am guessing you only watched the player's portion? On that point, I agree. The portions of the hearing prior to the players were much more informative and I think more productive to the actual problem of kids using steroids and other similiar substances.

[Tekneek]

The portions of the hearing prior to the players were much more informative and I think more productive to the actual problem of kids using steroids and other similiar substances.

I did not see any of that, so I will take your word for it. I do wonder if anything Congress does has any chance at all of shaping what individuals in this country do, much less young people who are generally less inclined to even be aware that we have a Congress.

[sterlingice]

How often do you watch C-Span 1, 2 and 3? One day is certainly worthwhile to investigate this issue. Sure, it's getting more attention on the sports stations and probably in the general media, but that doesn't mean it is getting more attention from congress.
*raises hand meekly* I do...

SI

[Danny]

I do wonder if anything Congress does has any chance at all of shaping what individuals in this country do, much less young people who are generally less inclined to even be aware that we have a Congress.

I am young and not overly experienced with how quickly or efficiently congress acts to these issues, but they are agitated and sound like that if MLB doesn't take action, they will.

I think a zero tolerance program whether issued by baseball or congress would help. However, what they need is a zero tolerance policy in college and high school sports too. I doubt we will get that however.

[rexallllsc]

Wow the longer this went on, the more it turned into grandstanding.

"You do not want us (Congress) to get involved"

Pathetic.

Either do it because you should, or shut up. Enough of the "why I oughta..." fist waving from our incompetent government.

[Anthony]

so when do we get the moral of the story? when is the end-result announced? or is this one of those "we made progress today, perhpas we should meet again once we're closer to elections because this will garner more attention and free press" kind of things.

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

[Arles]

I put most of this on baseball management. You think that if, from 1990 to 2000, steroids weren't tested for in the NFL that no one would have used? You give players a way to improve their abilities and it's silly to think that many would not try. I agree that McGwire probably used Steroids, as did Sosa, Bonds, and others. I don't think Palmiero did, but I've been pretty clear on that to this point. All that said, I don't think baseball should do one thing about all these records and future HOF involving this group. They've made their bed, it's time to lie in it. For people that really hate steroid use (but don't mind the aforementioned period without black players, massive amphetamine and cortizone use, "juiced balls", scuffing and spitting on balls), they will remember this time in their own way. Baseball screwed the pooch and steroids (just like they did with Greenies, scuffed balls, not allowing black players and allowing cortizone) and now the sport must suffer the embarasement of trying to clean it up. There would have been about 4-5 similar periods over the past 50 years if a 24-hour media existed back then. So, why is this a surprise to anyone?

For the record, I don't think any worse of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa or any of these guys than I did before all this. Just as I don't look down on Mantle for being hopped up on greenies so he could go on drinking binges during the season, Kofax for having more Cortizone than blood in his veins during the prime of his career, Cy Young throwing mud balls to help set his records or Perry for using everything short of a belt-sander on a baseball to get in the HoF. If I did, there wouldn't be many "heroes" left to root for.

If baseball doesn't make a legitimate attempt to prevent this type of stuff, I have a hard time blaming these players for doing things that they knew would not be punished by the league.

[Tekneek]

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

There is already an international body setup to do just that. You should never have the management handling this sort of thing. They have too much riding on the results to maintain their objectivity.

[Danny]

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

I like the olympic policy. First failed test is a two year suspension, second failed test and you are out for life.

[Logan]

I like the olympic policy. First failed test is a two year suspension, second failed test and you are out for life.

I think that has to be put into context though. These athletes are competing in the Olympics, which take place every four years. Therefore, they're missing half the small events that lead up to the big one. (note: I'm not sure if testing is done at a time besides the actual Olympics. So I would have a different outlook on this policy if, for example, they were tested a year before the Olympics were to take place, and a suspension would cause them to miss out on taking part)

One senator, towards the end of the whole thing, asked a question that was just stupid. I remember his name, Patrick McHenry, just because of today's holiday. He asked Selig if he would be in favor of a "one strike, you're out" policy like what is in place for gambling. He said it should be a one word answer. Selig, in my opinion, rightfully stated, "I don't know. I would have to think about it." What the hell did you want him to say? Obviously he's not going to say yes, as that would completely kill his stance that what they have put in place now is adequate. And if he were to say no, its Selig not wanting to "properly address the problem."

I'm in no way siding with the owners and PA. But these Congressmen f'in sucked. Somehow, they were unprepared. It took them hours to come around and ask meaningful questions. I was listening to Mike and the Mad Dog at various points of this whole proceeding, and they were shocked that these guys didn't go right at Schilling and ask him to explain what he meant in the SI article when he said (from memory) "I can't pat anyone on the butt anymore cause guys are so sore from sticking needles in there." I was shocked too. Some Congressman finally brought it up at around 6:00, and when he asked it, he didn't probe any further. He just let Schilling say something like "it was an exaggeration." Bullshit.

Oh, and how the hell did some of these guys get this far in their careers with the way they interview a group of people?

Dumb Congressman: "Is it baseball's responsibility to give greater importance to the steroid issue, and make sure that blah blah blah and yada yada yada occurs?"
Schilling: "Yes." (Dumb Congressman appears satisfied)
Palmeiro: "Yes."
McGwire: "Yeah, sure why not."
Sosa: (chuckling) "Si."
Canseco: "Yes."

[ISiddiqui]

Like I said, it looks so much like the Commish and Manfred just are so scattered and useless. Who's going to believe that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum even knew there were baseball games going on much less steroids in baseball.

SI
What a brilliant strategy! Selig does it again!

;)

[Ragone]

So thats why Palmeiro endorces viagra.. to reclaim lost potency from all the roids? :)

Honestly, his and schillings involvement is silly.. for one thing.. pitchers value FLEXIBILITY.. not muscle mass.. and another.. if palmeiro was using roids.. he better demand a refund

[sterlingice]

Honestly, his and schillings involvement is silly.. for one thing.. pitchers value FLEXIBILITY.. not muscle mass.. and another.. if palmeiro was using roids.. he better demand a refund
There is the school of thought that pitchers have been using them as much if not more than hitters to gain velocity with upper 80's being the minimums these days.

SI

[Ragone]

There is the school of thought that pitchers have been using them as much if not more than hitters to gain velocity with upper 80's being the minimums these days.

SI

Maybe so.. but using roids before doing flexibility exercises? That would seem like it would shorten your career rather then lengthen.. Pitching alone tears apart an arm

[rexallllsc]

so when do we get the moral of the story? when is the end-result announced? or is this one of those "we made progress today, perhpas we should meet again once we're closer to elections because this will garner more attention and free press" kind of things.

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

Do it like soccer. LONG suspensions. Public. Nasty.

[Coder]

I think that has to be put into context though. These athletes are competing in the Olympics, which take place every four years. Therefore, they're missing half the small events that lead up to the big one. (note: I'm not sure if testing is done at a time besides the actual Olympics. So I would have a different outlook on this policy if, for example, they were tested a year before the Olympics were to take place, and a suspension would cause them to miss out on taking part)

First of all, there are several "events" taking place during the course of the Olympiad (the time between the Olympic Games). There are World Championships, European Championships, "Golden League" events and a Grand Prix tour.. and now i'm just talking about Track and Field Athletics. For every single event like this, the top 3 finishers in each part (100m sprint, 1500m etc etc) are tested, as well as random participants. Just about all "Olympians" have these events as their every day job. If they were to test positive for performance enhancing drugs and be suspended for 1-3 years that would be devastating for them.

Then of course we have those athletes (Greece is notorious for this) who are basically invisible for 3 years only to have monster Olympic years... then when they're caught and are suspended, the Greek media screams "outrage".

Thing is, this is just track and field stuff. Last year, Manchester United defender Rio Ferdinand was suspended for 8 months for failing to show up at a drugtest. Cycling, a Swedish cyclist was suspended for 2 years for admitting to using performance enhancing drugs.

I just read an article about a Swedish swimmer, Therese Alshammar, who says she's usually being tested 10-15 times a year.

Basically, the "universal" view on steroids etc is that no matter if this is the first or second time, you're going to feel the punishment. It's not just going to be about missing 2 games of a 162-game season.

[stevew]

Maybe so.. but using roids before doing flexibility exercises? That would seem like it would shorten your career rather then lengthen.. Pitching alone tears apart an arm

Pitchers use them for lower body strength, not upper body.

[Sharpieman]

today's hearings were such a waste. i don't believe i've been listening for 1.5 hours. what did anyone think these players were gonna say anyway. McGwire is a fucking farce.
Hey at least you found out that McGwire is a douch.

[wbatl1]

Are our congressmen/women that idiotic. Some of the questions I saw were just terrible. "Why weren't the names of the players who tested positive in 2003-4 released?" Well, because the policy said it was Anonomous. Stupid policy, but come on congressman whoever, read the f***in thing before you complain about it.

[Klinglerware]

Pitchers use them for lower body strength, not upper body.

Yeah, much of a pitcher's velocity comes from his lower body. I also do notice that pitchers are, in general, much bulkier than they were 20 years ago. There seems to be more power pitchers in the game now too.

I'm sure some of it is steroids related. But other factors like better nutrition/more emphasis on working out, a greatly expanded talent pool, and the scouting apparatus systematically looking for pitchers who fit the "ideal power pitcher body and makeup" mold have something to do with it...

If pitchers use as much as hitters, then perhaps the records are a wash, and the home run increase in the 90s really does have more to do with the bandbox ballparks and the Colorado expansion than anything else...

[Blackadar]

I'm very saddened for Big Mac. He had a good/great career, was a helluva good guy in the community and now has his name dragged through the mud by grandstanding politicians trying to get a photo op. Mac doesn't deserve this. Bonds doesn't deserve this.

The whole damn thing is a shame, really. Baseball knew what was going on but it helped the popularity of the game, so they ignored it. Fans knew what was going on but adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The press knew what was going on but it wasn't "news". Players did it to be more powerful and popular. It was, for lack of a better term, a "conspiracy of silence".

Now everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and say they "didn't know" and feign moral outrage. Fix the problem, begin legitimate testing and go on with life because you can't go back. And leave these guys alone. I'm more worried about their long term health now than whether they doped up.

[KWhit]

I still view taking steroids as cheating.

If McGwire took roids (as I suspect he did), he is getting what he deserves.

[Anthony]

wow...Blackadar managed to basically take the total opposite of current public sentiment.

for the record, Blackadar, you are extremely wrong. when one person juices up - it's unfortunate. when a handful of guys juice up, it's an issue.

when on average 2% of the entire workforce (which translates into hundreds given the size of league) is found to be juicing - it's an epidemic. then the entire integrity of the sport is called into question.

i trust the same would have happened had it turned out that it wasn't just Pete Rose who gambled on the sport (i'm sure he wasn't entirely alone, but since he was the only one documented to have done it then we have to go with the facts and not assumptions), that if hundreds of players were gambling on the game we'd be having the same "What the fuck is going on?" hearings.

we didn't ask the right questions when all this started happening because at first homerun monsters were few and far between. a Cecil Fielder here. a Brady Anderson there. 90's come around, and records that stood for decades were being broken at a blistering pace. 3 60+ HR seasons by one guy?!? 2 70 HR seasons only 3 years apart? it is only know that society has decided to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes (to borrow a line from The Matrix).

this is all useless if nothing comes out of it. then it really was grandstanding and an opportunity for face-time. but if the ship is righted and all wrongs are corrected, so be it.

but, again, don't make the players who were dragged into these hearings out to be victims or martyrs. McGwire had a great opportunity to finally clear his name from being lumped with illegal substances. he reads the same papers we do and watches the same sports talk shows. he knows that more and more we question the validity of his stats. why would you let people tarnish your legacy? whatever happens to McGwire as far as his legend and place in history is concerned from here on out is the result of his own doing.

he's not a victim. none of the cheaters are.

[Ksyrup]

when on average 2% of the entire workforce (which translates into hundreds given the size of league)

40 * 30 = 1,200 * .02 = 24

[TroyF]

I still view taking steroids as cheating.

If McGwire took roids (as I suspect he did), he is getting what he deserves.


Agreed. Even if it wasn't in the baseball agreement, a large percentage of these drugs were illegal to begin with.

BigMac told the world he was clean. Just a few weeks ago he said it again. Then he comes up with that performence? Sorry, I'd be lying if I said I had not lost respect for the man. Ditto Bonds, who I've watched in awe over the last six or seven years.

He's now going to get what he deserves for cheating. He doesn't need my sympathy anyway. This isn't some single parent trying to raise 2 kids on a minimum wage salary. This is a guy who made millions of dollars doing what he did. I'm sure he'll be able to continue with his life without having my respect.

[Anthony]

40 * 30 = 1,200 * .02 = 24


well, technically that is 2% of however many people were tested. not everyone was tested. that number could be bigger and likely is. and you assume those "24" players are the only players who do it year in and out. i'm sure there were instances of a player saying "let me just juice up this year since i'm in the final year of my contract, get my numbers up and cash in. i can always quit after i sign a new contract". that's also 2% in this new era of higher scrutiny. in the crazy days of don't-ask-don't-tell (ie., only a few years ago) i'm sure it was more rampant.

so, that equation doesn't really mean anything (i understand you were correcting my math) and i actually think the qualifying percentage was 5% of players tested positive would mean the drug testing would remain in place for the remainder of the CBA. i think i was using Schilling's number of "2%" cuz that's what he used in the hearings.

so you got the 24 players based on 2%, and you got the numbers that Caminiti and Canseco are saying (well over half the league), i think the actual number is something in between that. so hundreds it is. :)

[Anthony]

Agreed. Even if it wasn't in the baseball agreement, a large percentage of these drugs were illegal to begin with.

BigMac told the world he was clean. Just a few weeks ago he said it again. Then he comes up with that performence? Sorry, I'd be lying if I said I had not lost respect for the man. Ditto Bonds, who I've watched in awe over the last six or seven years.

He's now going to get what he deserves for cheating. He doesn't need my sympathy anyway. This isn't some single parent trying to raise 2 kids on a minimum wage salary. This is a guy who made millions of dollars doing what he did. I'm sure he'll be able to continue with his life without having my respect.

that's what i say - these people don't need my/our pity.

one of my motto's is don't ever feel sorry for a millionaire.

[Ksyrup]

well, technically that is 2% of however many people were tested. not everyone was tested. Wrong. All players on the 40-man roster were tested the past 2 years, just not randomly. Try again.

EDIT: I should say, 2004 was mandatory for all players. The random testing in 2003 was to determine whether mandatory testing would be required if the 5% threshold was met. But that 2% was of all players.

[Crapshoot]

The fact that any idiot things McGuire has to be cleared in the eyes of a press corps that lives for sensation and fans who show the intelligence of chipmunks is hilarious. The moral outrage over this is absolute and total bullshit in the larger scheme of things. Are you going to go back and argue that every player who popped greenies was now tainted ? hell, in the 60's and 70's, speed was common in the game - should all of that go away ? Couldn't congress be doing something better than this ? I hate, hate self appointment moral policemen - self righteous pricks who seem to derive worth from determining how others should live.

[Anthony]

Wrong. All players on the 40-man roster were tested the past 2 years, just not randomly. Try again.

i haven't heard this. i got the impression this is all random sampling.

[Blackadar]

wow...Blackadar managed to basically take the total opposite of current public sentiment.

for the record, Blackadar, you are extremely wrong. when one person juices up - it's unfortunate. when a handful of guys juice up, it's an issue.

when on average 2% of the entire workforce (which translates into hundreds given the size of league) is found to be juicing - it's an epidemic. then the entire integrity of the sport is called into question.

i trust the same would have happened had it turned out that it wasn't just Pete Rose who gambled on the sport (i'm sure he wasn't entirely alone, but since he was the only one documented to have done it then we have to go with the facts and not assumptions), that if hundreds of players were gambling on the game we'd be having the same "What the fuck is going on?" hearings.

we didn't ask the right questions when all this started happening because at first homerun monsters were few and far between. a Cecil Fielder here. a Brady Anderson there. 90's come around, and records that stood for decades were being broken at a blistering pace. 3 60+ HR seasons by one guy?!? 2 70 HR seasons only 3 years apart? it is only know that society has decided to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes (to borrow a line from The Matrix).

this is all useless if nothing comes out of it. then it really was grandstanding and an opportunity for face-time. but if the ship is righted and all wrongs are corrected, so be it.

but, again, don't make the players who were dragged into these hearings out to be victims or martyrs. McGwire had a great opportunity to finally clear his name from being lumped with illegal substances. he reads the same papers we do and watches the same sports talk shows. he knows that more and more we question the validity of his stats. why would you let people tarnish your legacy? whatever happens to McGwire as far as his legend and place in history is concerned from here on out is the result of his own doing.

he's not a victim. none of the cheaters are.

Victims? No. Martyrs? No. Unfortunate? Yes.

Am I wrong? No. Because this is an opinion issue. Duh.

How deep does the rabbit hole go? I believe Caminiti was probably right - at least 50% of the players used steriods at some point. Again, I think everyone buried their heads in the sand because baseball was "exciting" again. Fans, players, owners, league administration...everyone knew. Of that I have no doubt. The damned rumors were rampant when Brady Anderson knocked out 50 in a season.

Cheaters? They cheated no more than someone who smoked pot or got caught DWI. It may have been illegal, but it's not "cheating" as it wasn't against the rules of baseball. There's a major difference between the two.

Again, what does all this accomplish? The horses have left the barn, the barn's burned down and a new parking lot has been paved in its place. So what's the use of dragging people through the mud now? To make examples of them? Then drag every baseball player in the last 15 years up on that stand and make them all testify. Because I'd bet that most of them are guilty of 'roiding at least once.

And what choice did Mac have?

1. If he was innocent, if he says he didn't do it - no one will believe him.
2. If he did do 'roids (and it only takes one dose), if he says he didn't do it - he risks going to jail for perjury.
3. If he did do 'roids (and it only takes one dose), if he says he did it - he risks going to jail for it.

Great choices there. It's all feigned indignation and grandstanding now. It's a friggin' witch hunt.

[Ksyrup]

i haven't heard this. i got the impression this is all random sampling.
I clarified above. 2004 was mandatory for all players, since at least 5% tested positive in random testing during 2003. That kicked the mandatory testing policy into gear for 2004. That's what the 2% figure relates to.

[Ksyrup]

I stumbled across this article just now. Does anyone remember this being reported at all? I swear this is the first time I've heard of it, and I know it hasn't been raised recently. I'm shocked this hasn't been brought up by someone, somewhere, given the issues at hand. Why weren't these guys called to testify?




Sledge Becomes Second To Test Postive For Steroids


By Will Kimmey
January 14, 2003

Expos outfield prospect Terrmel Sledge became the second baseball player in eight days to draw a two-year ban from international competition for testing positive for a steroid.

Sledge's name was posted on the United States Anti-Doping Agency's sanctions list Tuesday, citing a positive test in October when he was trying out for the U.S. Olympic qualifying team. Sledge's urine test showed traces of 19-norandrosterone and 19-noretiocholanolone, the same chemical derivatives related to androstenedione that got Angels righthander Derrick Turnbow a two-year ban on Jan. 5.

Sledge, 26, hit a career-high 22 home runs last season at Triple-A Edmonton, doubling his best previous season total. He entered the 2003 season with 34 home runs in 1,564 career at-bats. Sledge was added to the Expos 40-man roster after the 2002 season, and 40-man players are not subject to drug testing.

After Turnbow's positive test Gene Orza, associate general counsel of the players' union, said andro is a legal supplement in the U.S. and the substance was not forbidden by major league baseball.

"Derrick Turnbow did not test positive for a steroid," Orza said. "He tested positive for what the IOC (International Olympic Committee) and others regard as a steroid, but the U.S. government does not."

Turnbow was the first athlete sanctioned by the USADA in 2004, and Sledge and track and field participant Mickey Price became the second and third on Tuesday. Five of the 26 athletes sanctioned in 2003 tested positive for the same substance as Turnbow and Sledge. Those athletes competed in cycling (two), track and field (two) and swimming. No other baseball players appear on USADA sanction lists, which date back to 2001.

Turnbow acknowledged taking an over-the-counter nutritional supplement containing 19-norandrosterone, known in gyms as "19-nor," but said he "didn't know that what I was taking was going to make me fail a drug test, period." Neither Sledge nor the Expos could be reached for comment

[Anthony]

Cheaters? They cheated no more than someone who smoked pot or got caught DWI. It may have been illegal, but it's not "cheating" as it wasn't against the rules of baseball. There's a major difference between the two.


well, legally you can dress up as a fairy and stick dried meats in your colon singing Broadway tunes while rubbing pictures of prepubescent boys on your genital area...that don't make it right.

and don't give me "it wasn't against the rules of baseball". part of these hearings is to determine if baseball has the wherewithall to police itself, because it hasn't been doing a bang-up job lately in that regard. apparently there was a lot that baseball hasn't had a rule for.

[Anthony]

I clarified above. 2004 was mandatory for all players, since at least 5% tested positive in random testing during 2003. That kicked the mandatory testing policy into gear for 2004. That's what the 2% figure relates to.

gotcha... :cool:

[Blackadar]

One of these days, I hope someone says this to Congress on one of these BS hearings:

"Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules or took a few liberties with our female party guests -- we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the actions of a few sick, perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you ... isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America! Gentlemen!"

And then gets up and leaves...

:)

[Arles]

Maybe so.. but using roids before doing flexibility exercises? That would seem like it would shorten your career rather then lengthen.. Pitching alone tears apart an arm
IIRC, the biggest boost for pitchers using steroids is turnaround time on starts. IE, it helps them recover faster. All Steroids don't just build muscle and make you look like Paul Bunyan. There are many that simply increase your recovery rate.

[Blackadar]

well, legally you can dress up as a fairy and stick dried meats in your colon singing Broadway tunes while rubbing pictures of prepubescent boys on your genital area...that don't make it right.

Nah, we know that's your hobby.

As an aside, you're probably the only one sick enough to even think of such a thing on this board. Gratz!

and don't give me "it wasn't against the rules of baseball". part of these hearings is to determine if baseball has the wherewithall to police itself, because it hasn't been doing a bang-up job lately in that regard. apparently there was a lot that baseball hasn't had a rule for.

Don't give you it "wasn't against the rules of baseball"? I guess simple facts just interfere with your Don Quixote crusade this morning?

Again, these hearings are just an opportunity for Congress to grandstand and get photo ops. It's just a shame that they need to drag people through the mud to do it.

[Anthony]

yup....poor ole McGwire, Sosa and Canseco just were randomly thrown into this mess. shame on us.

[Arles]

Does anyone think that 70-80% of the NFL would not be juicing if no steroid tests were done between 1998 and 2002? When baseball turned a blind eye on this issue, it created the problem. Athletics is not like working at IBM or Motorola. Athletes are valued (and paid) by their ability to hit the ball, run faster and pitch better. If there is a way to improve that with no definitive health risks that is not checked by baseball, it is silly to think that many people won't do this. I guarantee you that if someone would have walked up to Mantle and said "Hey, Mick, here's some cream that will make your knee problems go away, allow you to hit more HRs and stay healthy all season, you want it?" He would have jumped at that in a second.

The difference between hitting 15 HRs and 25 HRs is about $6 million a year. For baseball/society to now be up in arms that players would try and take advantage of this loophole in their testing is completely hypocritical.

This is like putting 100 kids in a candy store all night - Asking them not to eat any but saying that they won't check the inventory the next morning and leaving the room. Then, acting all self-righteous and indignant when it comes out that 20-30 kids ate some of the candy.

Baseball made this mess, but people like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero are going to pay for it. Just another feather in the cap of Fehr and Selig. Then again, without steroids, there's a good chance that baseball might be the shell of what it was 10 years ago because of the strike. If there's no McGwire and Sosa HR chase, who knows where baseball is right now.

[Blackadar]

Arles nailed it - that's exactly my sentiment. Thanks, Arles!

[ISiddiqui]

Blackadar: Yeah, that would be great. But I'm sure no one wants to go to jail ;).

[TroyF]

Does anyone think that 70-80% of the NFL would not be juicing if no steroid tests were done between 1998 and 2002? When baseball turned a blind eye on this issue, it created the problem. Athletics is not like working at IBM or Motorola. Athletes are valued (and paid) by their ability to hit the ball, run faster and pitch better. If there is a way to improve that with no definitive health risks that is not checked by baseball, it is silly to think that many people won't do this. I guarantee you that if someone would have walked up to Mantle and said "Hey, Mick, here's some cream that will make your knee problems go away, allow you to hit more HRs and stay healthy all season, you want it?" He would have jumped at that in a second.

The difference between hitting 15 HRs and 25 HRs is about $6 million a year. For baseball/society to now be up in arms that players would try and take advantage of this loophole in their testing is completely hypocritical.

This is like putting 100 kids in a candy store all night - Asking them not to eat any but saying that they won't check the inventory the next morning and leaving the room. Then, acting all self-righteous and indignant when it comes out that 20-30 kids ate some of the candy.

Baseball made this mess, but people like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero are going to pay for it. Just another feather in the cap of Fehr and Selig. Then again, without steroids, there's a good chance that baseball might be the shell of what it was 10 years ago because of the strike. If there's no McGwire and Sosa HR chase, who knows where baseball is right now.

No, it's not hypocritical, and these players aren't children. The Enron executives had a chance to make millions by going against the rules and doing something illegal too. Just because someone has the chance to make millions of dollars by doing something illegal, doesn't mean it's right for them to do it.

I know. . . this was a victimless crime. They only did it to themselves. Fine, I can live with that. Still, I have every right to lose respect for the people who made that choice.

And you're right, baseball did make this mess. Baseball as a whole. The players and the owners. I really didn't have much respect for Fehr and Selig anyway, so there isn't any extra outrage from me on that.

McGwire isn't taking the fall for baseball. McGwire is taking the fall for a personal choice he made. Why should I give a flip about him? It's important to note that he succeeded with his choice. He broke the Maris record. He made millions and he finished 6th on the all-time home run list making millions of dollars in endorsements and contracts along the way. If that's what his integrity is worth, good for him.

[KWhit]

Well said, TroyF. I agree with that 100%.

[Arles]

No, it's not hypocritical, and these players aren't children. The Enron executives had a chance to make millions by going against the rules and doing something illegal too. Just because someone has the chance to make millions of dollars by doing something illegal, doesn't mean it's right for them to do it.
But there's a difference here, and a big one. Firs0A4) Tried numerous times to cover for steroid users and minimize its use and impact

At the time steroid use was speculated (early 90s), it was not even on baseball's radar. Mark McGwire could have walked up to Bud Selig in 1994 and said he stuck a needle full of steroids up his ass that night and there was nothing (legally or in baseball) that the league could have done. In order to break the law with steroids, you had to either be shown to be trafficing or illegally possessing the drug. There was nothing against the act of using steroids (even in the US law). And it was completely absent from any baseball by-law, which meant Selig couldn't even suspend McGwire if that happened. Now, compare that to Enron and tell me it is the same.

McGwire isn't taking the fall for baseball. McGwire is taking the fall for a personal choice he made. Why should I give a flip about him?
I would say more Bonds than McGwire, but yes they are. Baseball reaped huge benefits from the Sosa-McGwire-Bonds HR derby from 1998 to 2002. The actions of those three men helped clean up an even bigger mess baseball made during the strike of the mid-90s. Now, baseball is able to pin it only on a few players (as if a vast majority of players ranging from Brett Boone to Luis Gonzalez didn't use at some point) and say it's fixed and isn't that big of a problem. But, I would bet a lot of money that if you went up to baseball executives, owners and even Selig and stated - Would you rather:

A) Steroid use never entered baseball in the 90s because you guys instituted a testing process like the NFL, but baseball never fully recovered from the strike and attendance was still down.

B) Exactly what happened from 1990 to 2002.

Behind closed doors, everyone to a man would have chosen option B.

It's important to note that he succeeded with his choice. He broke the Maris record. He made millions and he finished 6th on the all-time home run list making millions of dollars in endorsements and contracts along the way. If that's what his integrity is worth, good for him.
If this is about integrity, why give a free pass to players like Mantle that were hopped up on Greenies? or players like Cy Young that ended guys' career by using almost invisible "mud-balls"? or players that fought to keep blacks out of the major leagues? or players like Perry and Nekro that scuffed the crap out of balls? or players like Kofax that used Cortizone to extend their careers? or guys that steal signs and/or sharpen spikes?

Did McGwire and Bonds get an edge through their drug use? Sure, but it's no different that many baseball players before them. Athletics is a competition where the difference between a career in the minors and being an All-Star could be as simple as having a scout at a game or twisting a knee running the bases. With that small margin for error, it is not a responsible position to think that players will not look for every possible advantage they can get. So, for baseball to take a blind eye to this for 10 years while they cashed their billions, only to now throw their stars under the bus and blame everyone but baseball is extremely hypocritical and a joke.

Again, and I want to make sure I am 100% clear on this, McGwire or Bonds could have walked up to Bud Selig in 1994 and show him the mark on their ass where they injected steroids and there was nothing legally or via baseball that he could have done. They could have played baseball that very night. In no other sport could that have happened.

[Blackadar]

Damn, it must have taken a long time to type that twice, Arles. :)

[Arles]

Yeah, I guess I had a sticky trigger finger ;)

[gstelmack]

Mark McGwire could have walked up to Bud Selig in 1994 and said he stuck a needle full of steroids up his ass that night and there was nothing (legally or in baseball) that the league could have done. In order to break the law with steroids, you had to either be shown to be trafficing or illegally possessing the drug. There was nothing against the act of using steroids (even in the US law).
How was he legally possessing the steroid when he walked up and stuck himself with it? You can make a case that if he tested positive after-the-fact, they can't pin it on him, but if he walks up with the needle, he's pretty much possessing it illegally.

I'm with TroyF on this issue. Players and Owners both created this situation, and no amount of protesting will change the fact that they knew they were doing wrong and did it anyway. All for a buck.

[Arles]

How was he legally possessing the steroid when he walked up and stuck himself with it?
You have to prove possession. And, if he stuck himself in his own home, it's doubtful a DA would even file charges.

You can make a case that if he tested positive after-the-fact, they can't pin it on him, but if he walks up with the needle, he's pretty much possessing it illegally.
I'm not saying he hands Selig the needle, I'm saying he tells him he did it. The point is there was nothing in baseball to deal with people that admitted to using steroids. And, if you assume most did it in private without an entourage watching, there's not much that could be legally done as well. In the NFL, if a player admitted to using steroids, he would have been suspended.

I'm with TroyF on this issue. Players and Owners both created this situation, and no amount of protesting will change the fact that they knew they were doing wrong and did it anyway. All for a buck.
My fear here is this whole issue gets passed off on some "unscrupulous" players like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire and allows Selig and baseball to skate with little to no changes. Given the tone of the congressional hearings, that's exactly what is happening. It's a great diversion by baseball:

"Only 2% of players used this. Hey, wait, look over there at Bonds, Thomas, McGwire and Sosa. They are the only guys that did it. Lynch em!!!"

(While Selig and Fehr walk back into their offices patting each other on the back).

So far (given the tone of this thread), everyone has fallen for it hook-line and sinker. The moment the names get thrown out and the issue gets dealt with is the moment that this problem might actually been addressed. Until then, we are going to be so focused on how to "deal" with Bonds, Sosa and McGwire that the we will continue to not notice (or care) about baseball sliding in fines instead of suspension in the CBA. I mean, the important thing is to get Bonds to admit he used steroids ten years ago, right?

[Blackadar]

ok, here's a valid and legitimate question for anyone who "lost respect" for Mac or thinks there should be asterisks on records or anything like that....

Did you lose respect for Babe Ruth or think his records shouldn't stand because he drank alcohol during Prohibition (1920-1933)?

[Logan]

ok, here's a valid and legitimate question for anyone who "lost respect" for Mac or thinks there should be asterisks on records or anything like that....

Did you lose respect for Babe Ruth or think his records shouldn't stand because he drank alcohol during Prohibition (1920-1933)?

No. Prohibition was bullshit.

Plus, drinking had nothing to do with his performance on the field. If anything, you would think it would hurt it. It's like asking if we would lose respect for McGwire if he didn't use steroids, but instead he downloaded mp3's off Napster.

[Anthony]

nope. because alchohol is not a known performance enhancer. if anything it is a known hinderence. more dehydration, gradually affecting hand-eye coordination, killing brain cells. so if anything Ruth screwed himself and probably could have hit more HR's had he not drank.

[TroyF]

But there's a difference here, and a big one. Firs0A4) Tried numerous times to cover for steroid users and minimize its use and impact

At the time steroid use was speculated (early 90s), it was not even on baseball's radar. Mark McGwire could have walked up to Bud Selig in 1994 and said he stuck a needle full of steroids up his ass that night and there was nothing (legally or in baseball) that the league could have done. In order to break the law with steroids, you had to either be shown to be trafficing or illegally possessing the drug. There was nothing against the act of using steroids (even in the US law). And it was completely absent from any baseball by-law, which meant Selig couldn't even suspend McGwire if that happened. Now, compare that to Enron and tell me it is the same.


Possession of steroids was illegal. To use them, you have to possess them in some form, right? Give me a break. McGwire knew what he was doing was wrong. As do Bonds and others. The players covered it up when they were doing it. Why? Because they knew they were walking an ethical tight rope all along. Lets stop pretending these guys were innocent children who had any comprehension of what was happening to them, ok?

I would say more Bonds than McGwire, but yes they are. Baseball reaped huge benefits from the Sosa-McGwire-Bonds HR derby from 1998 to 2002. The actions of those three men helped clean up an even bigger mess baseball made during the strike of the mid-90s. Now, baseball is able to pin it only on a few players (as if a vast majority of players ranging from Brett Boone to Luis Gonzalez didn't use at some point) and say it's fixed and isn't that big of a problem. But, I would bet a lot of money that if you went up to baseball executives, owners and even Selig and stated - Would you rather:

A) Steroid use never entered baseball in the 90s because you guys instituted a testing process like the NFL, but baseball never fully recovered from the strike and attendance was still down.

B) Exactly what happened from 1990 to 2002.

Behind closed doors, everyone to a man would have chosen option B.

Of course they would, because none of those morons can see a big picture. They never could. They wanted the short term success and didn't give a damn if it had long term consequences. It's why the original strike happened. (and the resolution of that strike that didn't fix a single problem in the game)

Long term, baseball will always be OK. People will forgive and forget. The goal all along should have been to try and restore the publics trust. Instead they were more than happy to let steroid induced jack asses give them some short term happiness and cause the game to go into an even bigger scandal.

Nobody ever said these guys were bright.

If this is about integrity, why give a free pass to players like Mantle that were hopped up on Greenies? or players like Cy Young that ended guys' career by using almost invisible "mud-balls"? or players that fought to keep blacks out of the major leagues? or players like Perry and Nekro that scuffed the crap out of balls? or players like Kofax that used Cortizone to extend their careers? or guys that steal signs and/or sharpen spikes?

Why do you assume that I don't have issues with all of that? Why do you assume for a second that I condone Ty Cobb's racist attitudes or that I don't mind Don Sutton admitting he's a cheater?

Again, and I want to make sure I am 100% clear on this, McGwire or Bonds could have walked up to Bud Selig in 1994 and show him the mark on their ass where they injected steroids and there was nothing legally or via baseball that he could have done. They could have played baseball that very night. In no other sport could that have happened.

And I want to make sure I'm 100% clear on this: The players doing it knew they were doing the wrong thing. There are many things I can choose to do which are unethical, but not against the laws of society (or where I work). It doesn't mean I go acting on it and it doesn't mean I have to respect those who do.

Lastly, I fully admitted baseball was in the wrong. The difference is you only want to look at the owners. I blame both parties. Fehr and Selig for this disaster. Again, it doesn't mean I'm forced to respect the guys who conducted themselves like this. I've already stated, they won. Doesn't matter what I think of McGwire, he'll sleep very well in his large house tonight. He doesn't need my sympathy and he doesn't need my respect. It's a very good thing for him that he doesn't, because he's not going to be geting either.

[Arles]

No. Prohibition was bullshit.

Plus, drinking had nothing to do with his performance on the field. If anything, you would think it would hurt it. It's like asking if we would lose respect for McGwire if he didn't use steroids, but instead he downloaded mp3's off Napster.
What about the people that used amphetamines, cortizone, or scuffed baseballs. There's a bunch of them in the hall and each of those certainly improved their performance on the field (arguably more than steroids).

[Anthony]

or players that fought to keep blacks out of the major leagues? or players like Perry and Nekro that scuffed the crap out of balls? or players like Kofax that used Cortizone to extend their careers? or guys that steal signs and/or sharpen spikes?"

i don't buy any of this crap arguement. this is the prevailing counter-arguement it seems. none of those things were performance enhancers. stats enhancers - yes. but they didn't make guys into players they weren't. stealing signs is silly. you still have the hit the ball. and the other team can use it against you as well so it's effect is little to nothing. things like scuffed balls can be used by anyone. there is no clear decision to put your health at risk if you want to have an advantage. if there was an invention where you could take a totally non-traceable substance that would result in muscle mass growth, but the only caveat was that you had to remove a kidney - you might think long and hard before you make a decision to go down that road. taking steroids is similar. it involves making a decision to alter your body where you are able to do things that you weren't genetically and naturally born to do. that's a far cry from spitballs and sharpened spikes.

Mantle taking greenies is not a valid point either. we have access to better diet programs and legal supplements today then they did back then. heck, back then we thought white bread and eating red meat no matter how fatty was good for you. so don't give me that bs. players today have an even bigger edge in terms of keeping their bodies at a consistently high level throughout an entire season. you don't want to get into the slippery slope of comparing era to era. as it stands now with all the supplements and non-detectable substances athletes today are at the height of their powers.

[gstelmack]

My fear here is this whole issue gets passed off on some "unscrupulous" players like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire and allows Selig and baseball to skate with little to no changes. Given the tone of the congressional hearings, that's exactly what is happening. It's a great diversion by baseball:

"Only 2% of players used this. Hey, wait, look over there at Bonds, Thomas, McGwire and Sosa. They are the only guys that did it. Lynch em!!!"

(While Selig and Fehr walk back into their offices patting each other on the back).

So far (given the tone of this thread), everyone has fallen for it hook-line and sinker. The moment the names get thrown out and the issue gets dealt with is the moment that this problem might actually been addressed. Until then, we are going to be so focused on how to "deal" with Bonds, Sosa and McGwire that the we will continue to not notice (or care) about baseball sliding in fines instead of suspension in the CBA. I mean, the important thing is to get Bonds to admit he used steroids ten years ago, right?
This is B.S. There are many people are blaming BOTH sides, you're just having a hard time seeing it because you're trying to defend the players, so you've got everyone talking about the players. Steroids were illegal (we can quibble over "possession" vs. "use" all we want, you have to "possess" to "use"), the players used them anyway, and baseball turned a blind eye to it. Selig and Fehr are being shown as fools just like the players are during these hearings, or haven't you been reading the online press? ESPN/CNN both are laughing at their attempts to claim the current policy DOES have teeth.

This game was destroyed years ago for me during the last strike, and this is just the last little nail in the coffin. And the fault lies on both sides of the bargaining table.

And yes, I do think less of those players during the "Golden Days" that did similar things. Heck, I still can't believe that coke-head Michael Irvin has a primetime gig as a football analyst...

[HomerJSimpson]

Boy, I hope baseball has rules against poisoning the opposing team before a game, or someone might think that it is ok to do so. And of course, unless it is in the rule books, it isn't cheating.

[ISiddiqui]

you have to "possess" to "use"
No DA in the WORLD would book a guy who was high on the argument that you have to have had possession of the drug in order to use the drug. There is a big distinction.

[Arles]

i don't buy any of this crap arguement. this is the prevailing counter-arguement it seems. none of those things were performance enhancers.
Greenies were most certainly "performance enhancers". They allowed players to speed up their reflexes - in essence slowing down the game around you. That's a big help to both hitting and fielding. Cortizone allowed pitchers to throw when their natural ability would have had them needing more rest.

things like scuffed balls can be used by anyone.
And steroids couldn't be?


But no cortizone and greenies. Yet, it seems the argument is shifting yet again. First, it was the "integrity" of not cheating. Then, it was only enhancing performance. Now, it's altering your genetics. But anyway you slice, steroid use isn't that far off other drug use in the 50s to 70s. Of course, we didn't have a 24-hour media to make it a big deal.

[QUOTE]Mantle taking greenies is not a valid point either.
Mantle taking illegal drugs in 1960 to improve his performance isn't the same as McGwire taking illegal drugs in 1990 to improve his performance?

we have access to better diet programs and legal supplements today then they did back then.
And they didn't have to face black players - I'm not following?

players today have an even bigger edge in terms of keeping their bodies at a consistently high level throughout an entire season. you don't want to get into the slippery slope of comparing era to era. as it stands now with all the supplements and non-detectable substances athletes today are at the height of their powers.
Yeah, well Mantle didn't have to face a 100-mile an hour reliever like Billy Wagner or guys like Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens from a physical standpoint. It cuts both ways.

The point is that players have been using drugs/methods to "cheat" or improve performance for decades, yet none have faced the level of indignation Bonds and McGwire are right now.

[Logan]

What about the people that used amphetamines, cortizone, or scuffed baseballs. There's a bunch of them in the hall and each of those certainly improved their performance on the field (arguably more than steroids).

No argument there. I was just responding to Blackadar's ridiculous Prohibition question. But as for all those other cheaters, sure they deserve some sort of criticism.

The problem is that, generally, people didn't care that players popped greenies or were scuffing up the ball. I think its because A) so many people did it and B) it didn't lead to any observable increase or decrease in statistics. Meaning...scuffed balls presumably dropped the amount of runs scored by a slight amount. But I'm sure baseball's biggest fans in this era weren't clamoring for reform. I think that's where all those issues separate from the steroid issue. Many people were devoted to the numbers 61 and 755. They spent years watching players challenge it, only to fall short. Then, in the past 10 years, the single-season was broken not once (and shattered is a better way to put it), but twice, and the all-time record is sure to be broken by a guy who clearly used steroids (I'll be PC and add that this athlete may not have known he was taking such steroids :)). That is why so many people are pissed about the possibility that these players were/are juiced, and that is why they choose to ignore the cheaters of the past.

[Arles]

No argument there. I was just responding to Blackadar's ridiculous Prohibition question. But as for all those other cheaters, sure they deserve some sort of criticism.

The problem is that, generally, people didn't care that players popped greenies or were scuffing up the ball. I think its because A) so many people did it and B) it didn't lead to any observable increase or decrease in statistics. Meaning...scuffed balls presumably dropped the amount of runs scored by a slight amount.
You forgot:

C) a self-righteous 24-hour media that holds athletes to a level no normal human being could likely achieve.

Then, in the past 10 years, the single-season was broken not once (and shattered is a better way to put it), but twice
I still contend that the new ball, smaller stadiums, shrinking the strike zone to the size of a matchbox and throwing out pitchers that "brush back guys" contributed to the fall of these records more than steroids.

Arlie

[Blackadar]

No. Prohibition was bullshit.

Plus, drinking had nothing to do with his performance on the field. If anything, you would think it would hurt it. It's like asking if we would lose respect for McGwire if he didn't use steroids, but instead he downloaded mp3's off Napster.

No, we are talking about both being chemical substances that effect the human body. The MP3 thing is a false analogy and a poor one at that.

Just because prohibition was "bullshit" doesn't it make any less of a crime. So I suppose that the moral indignation on this steriods thing isn't because steroids were/are illegal. Otherwise, we'd be pissed at Mickey Mantle for greenies, Babe Ruth for alcohol and Dwight Gooden for cocaine.

Scratch the last example. :)

So that leads us to point #2. That steriods would boost his performance. But if they weren't banned from baseball, wouldn't you want to boost your performance? "Oh, but they're not legal" goes the excuse. Which dovetails nicely with Arles quote above of: "it seems the argument is shifting yet again. First, it was the "integrity" of not cheating. Then, it was only enhancing performance. Now, it's altering your genetics.

So what about those players who took steroids before they were illegal? After all, anabolic steroids weren't banned until 1992. So (for example) if Cal Ripken was using them in 1990, does that make him a cheater now?

[TroyF]

C) a self-righteous 24-hour media that holds athletes to a level no normal human being could likely achieve.

Christ, this isn't a case where these guys got drunk or made a minor ethical misjudgement all of us could screw up on.

They willingly looked for, purchased and used drugs that are illegal in this country for the sole purpose of personal gain. Trying to make this thing into some little ethical thing we all face sometimes is understating the reality of the situation. These guys KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. They all knew what would happen if it got out, and that's why they hid what they were doing from the public when they were doing it.

[Blackadar]

I still contend that the new ball, smaller stadiums, shrinking the strike zone to the size of a matchbox and throwing out pitchers that "brush back guys" contributed to the fall of these records more than steroids.

Arlie

Add in:

1. The shift in the thinking of the game to allow players to strike out while swinging for the fences
2. A shift in empahsis to strength training by weightlifting - which was actively discouraged until the mid-80s

and you have a homer-happy era.

[gstelmack]

No DA in the WORLD would book a guy who was high on the argument that you have to have had possession of the drug in order to use the drug. There is a big distinction.
That's not what's being argued. What's being argued is that that the guy who used can justify his actions that it's not "illegal" or "wrong" since he was never caught in possession. That could make it technically legal, but still doesn't make it right. He's still a druggie and did something he shouldn't have, much like these baseball players.

[rkmsuf]

I don't see why this is so confusing.

This is a social issue that baseball will bear the brunt of because they are a billion dollar business.

Maybe some of it is Congressional face time but beyond that I see real merit in the proceedings. Especially in light of what I've heard from Martell, Selig, Fehr and Pellman yesterday. A bunch of complete boobs.

I could give a crap about the MLB guys health or the past records. What a horrible message that has been sent though. We'll reward you handsomely for breaking federal law, MLB will look the other way and nobody will ever rat on you. Nice.

It's not asking too much to put together a real program to rid the sport of this stuff. For once I'd love to see them foresake their almighty dollar and infighting and do the right thing.

[HomerJSimpson]

I don't see why this is so confusing.

This is a social issue that baseball will bear the brunt of because they are a billion dollar business.

Maybe some of it is Congressional face time but beyond that I see real merit in the proceedings. Especially in light of what I've heard from Martell, Selig, Fehr and Pellman yesterday. A bunch of complete boobs.

I could give a crap about the MLB guys health or the past records. What a horrible message that has been sent though. We'll reward you handsomely for breaking federal law, MLB will look the other way and nobody will ever rat on you. Nice.

It's not asking too much to put together a real program to rid the sport of this stuff. For once I'd love to see them foresake their almighty dollar and infighting and do the right thing.

Right on.

[Anthony]

Greenies were most certainly "performance enhancers". They allowed players to speed up their reflexes - in essence slowing down the game around you. That's a big help to both hitting and fielding. Cortizone allowed pitchers to throw when their natural ability would have had them needing more rest.


And steroids couldn't be?


so why is it perfectly ok for other sports to have something more restrictive regarding illegal substances, but baseball doesn't need it? why bother at all? these hearings are to tell baseball that steroids isn't a CBA item to be negotiated. that it better get its policy regarding drugs more in line with that of other sports before it has its policies dictated to them.

[Logan]

No, we are talking about both being chemical substances that effect the human body. The MP3 thing is a false analogy and a poor one at that.

Just because prohibition was "bullshit" doesn't it make any less of a crime. So I suppose that the moral indignation on this steriods thing isn't because steroids were/are illegal. Otherwise, we'd be pissed at Mickey Mantle for greenies, Babe Ruth for alcohol and Dwight Gooden for cocaine.

Your original question:
Did you lose respect for Babe Ruth or think his records shouldn't stand because he drank alcohol during Prohibition (1920-1933)?

I answered no, because alcohol is not a performance enhancer. Why in gods name would anyone feel his records shouldn't stand? Anyone who feels that way should be in a friggin institution. Alcohol and steroids are completely different issues, and I can't believe you're still trying to maintain this position. There are plenty of "chemical substances that effect the human body" but not all of them are performance enhancing.

[ISiddiqui]

That's not what's being argued. What's being argued is that that the guy who used can justify his actions that it's not "illegal" or "wrong" since he was never caught in possession. That could make it technically legal, but still doesn't make it right. He's still a druggie and did something he shouldn't have, much like these baseball players.
Your definition of 'right' doesn't speak for everyone, however. For example, it doesn't speak for me.

[Blackadar]

Your original question:

I answered no, because alcohol is not a performance enhancer. Why in gods name would anyone feel his records shouldn't stand? Anyone who feels that way should be in a friggin institution. Alcohol and steroids are completely different issues, and I can't believe you're still trying to maintain this position. There are plenty of "chemical substances that effect the human body" but not all of them are performance enhancing.

No Logan, they are the same issue. You just don't like it because it's damned difficult to say it was ok for The Babe but not for players today without looking like a total hypocrite.

Illegal chemical substances = illegal chemical substances.

But you want to split hairs and now talk about performance enhancing drugs being the problem. So then answer question #2. For players who took steroids before 1992, should they be castigated as well? Or how about demeaning the achievements of "the Mick" because of his greenies? After all, both of those are performance enhancing drugs.

I feel all the records should stand. I think that baseball needs a steroid policy. And I think that people should stop grandstanding, fix the problem and move on without playing the "blame game" that's going on today. Dragging specific names through the mud is dispicable when there's enough blame to spread around to everyone - owners, managers, players, trainers and even the fans.

[Klinglerware]

Babe Ruth played in a home park that, at the time, was 295 feet from home plate to the RF line, hit nearly half of his home runs after the stock market crash (baseball intentionall juiced the ball to improve offense and ticket sales), and never faced a black pitcher in a major league game. He had help in achieving his records.

Does that negate those records? No. But it does speak to the point that statistics are essentially meaningless without any context to how they are generated. Furthermore, any talk of steroid-tainted records is silly since innumerable factors are also at play in generating the statistics seen...

[Arles]

OK, here's a different question:

Many players were/are taking Creatine while playing baseball - esp during the late 90s (heck, Sosa was the spokesman for a while). If it comes down in 2007 that Creatine or something similar gets banned from baseball, should Sosa (and others that used it) be frowned upon?

What I am trying to determine is whether the issue is more that the supplement increased performance (something that Creatine and certain over-the-counter things currently do close to a level of steroids) or if it's because it wasn't legal (in which case you should throw greenies, cortizone, cocaine and many of the other drugs used in the pot).

I mean, if the issue is strictly based on enhancing performance, there are a lot of over-the-counter products that we should add to the list with steroids.

[Logan]

No Logan, they are the same issue. You just don't like it because it's damned difficult to say it was ok for The Babe but not for players today without looking like a total hypocrite.

Illegal chemical substances = illegal chemical substances.

But you want to split hairs and now talk about performance enhancing drugs being the problem. So then answer question #2. For players who took steroids before 1992, should they be castigated as well? Or how about demeaning the achievements of "the Mick" because of his greenies? After all, both of those are performance enhancing drugs.

I don't think it's splitting hairs when one thing has such a greater impact on the game than another. Maybe the reason I feel this way is the following: I've always been in the camp who can give two shits about what a player does off the court, because I don't hold them up to be "idols" or "heroes" or whatever designation people want to give them. To me, they are all ballplayers who perform on the field. Sure, there are some who have proven to me that they are legitimately good guys, people who are a benefit to the community, and hopefully when I have kids someday, I will tell them how these few players are the ones who should be role models. Maybe they don't put up the .320/50/120 seasons that the superstars do, but they go out everyday, play hard, and are an asset to society in other ways. There are many who will idolize guys like McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc based solely on their on-field play, and I don't have a problem with that, because everyone is entitled to feel the way they want. Getting back to my point...as long as athletes are keeping to the integrity of the game while on the field, I don't care what they do off the field.

Anyone who has ever compromised the integrity of the game, through steroids/greenies/scuffing/etc, should be chastised in some way, no matter when it occured (ie steroid use before 1992, as you asked above). Do I have an answer for what the punishment should be? Well if we're talking about the past, perception by the public is the only thing that can be brought up.

Going back to what I said in my initial response. I think the only reason this is being made such a big deal now, as opposed to the *numerous, repeated, public* cheating in the past, is because people love the home run and don't want to see it being made meaningless.

[Arles]

so why is it perfectly ok for other sports to have something more restrictive regarding illegal substances, but baseball doesn't need it? why bother at all? these hearings are to tell baseball that steroids isn't a CBA item to be negotiated. that it better get its policy regarding drugs more in line with that of other sports before it has its policies dictated to them.
I agree 100%. So all congress had to do was bring in Selig and Fehr and say:

"If you don't toughen up the steroid restrictions, we will remove your anti-trust exemption. So, how about you submit a new policy to us by opening day."

And, Wha-la!, problem solved. No parading ex-players, current players and guys selling books to make a spectical of the entire process.

There's a simple way to fix this problem, but I don't think that was what interested congress given the way they handled it all.

[HomerJSimpson]

OK, here's a different question:

Many players were/are taking Creatine while playing baseball - esp during the late 90s (heck, Sosa was the spokesman for a while). If it comes down in 2007 that Creatine gets banned from baseball, should Sosa (and others that used it) be frowned upon?

What I am trying to determine is whether the issue is more than the supplement increased performance (something that Creatine and certain over-the-counter things currently do close to a level of steroids) or if it's because it wasn't legal (in which case you should throw greenies, cortizone, cocaine and many of the other drugs used in the pot).

I mean, if the issue is strictly based on enhancing performance, there are a lot of over-the-counter products that we should add to the list with steroids.


Personally? The illegality of it goes hand-in-hand with the enhancement factor. Without one or the other, it becomes a non-issue (such as Creatine, Andro, etc.).

[rkmsuf]

only the stat geeks care about stupid records.

it's completely meaningless when compared to the issue at hand in this case. that's where Bunning looked like a jackass yesterday.

[Arles]

Personally? The illegality of it goes hand-in-hand with the enhancement factor. Without one or the other, it becomes a non-issue (such as Creatine, Andro, etc.).
But what if a study showed that creatine offered the exact "performance enhancement" related to baseball that steroids did? You would be OK with Creatine users because we didn't have enough info on long term effects to ban it yet?

From my standpoint, I don't see the legality as being the major issue here as shown by the comments on drinking, cocaine, ... It seems to me that the main source of outrage is that these guys broke "sacred" records potentially with the help of Steroids. And, in many people's mind, steroids are the buzzword for personal enhancement. But if it comes to pass that some of the "legal" supplements offer similar enhancement, why is that suddenly OK? By saying it's OK, you are saying that only the legal aspect matters - which put steroids in the same boat as the other drugs I cited earlier.

[Logan]

OK, here's a different question:

Many players were/are taking Creatine while playing baseball - esp during the late 90s (heck, Sosa was the spokesman for a while). If it comes down in 2007 that Creatine gets banned from baseball, should Sosa (and others that used it) be frowned upon?

What I am trying to determine is whether the issue is more than the supplement increased performance (something that Creatine and certain over-the-counter things currently do close to a level of steroids) or if it's because it wasn't legal (in which case you should throw greenies, cortizone, cocaine and many of the other drugs used in the pot).

I mean, if the issue is strictly based on enhancing performance, there are a lot of over-the-counter products that we should add to the list with steroids.

I think its a combination of both. Blackadar has said "illegal chemical substances = illegal chemical substances." I don't categorize steroids just in that regard; to me, they are "illegal performance enhancing substances." Shit, there are plenty of chemicals, both legal and illegal, that can kill you.

And to answer your original question: Personally, I wouldn't frown upon Sosa. He was using a legal substance, and surely, while the benefits he derived from using could be used to increase his performance, it isn't something that any other player couldn't legally obtain to "level the playing field." We already saw this with the Andro McGwire was taking. Shortly after it was discovered, MLB added it to the banned list, and McGwire claimed that he stopped taking it. There were some people who felt that this hurt his legacy a little bit (of course not nearly as much as yesterday's hearing), and I'm sure some people would feel the same way about athletes if Creatine was banned.

[Blackadar]

I don't think it's splitting hairs when one thing has such a greater impact on the game than another. Maybe the reason I feel this way is the following: I've always been in the camp who can give two shits about what a player does off the court, because I don't hold them up to be "idols" or "heroes" or whatever designation people want to give them. To me, they are all ballplayers who perform on the field. Sure, there are some who have proven to me that they are legitimately good guys, people who are a benefit to the community, and hopefully when I have kids someday, I will tell them how these few players are the ones who should be role models. Maybe they don't put up the .320/50/120 seasons that the superstars do, but they go out everyday, play hard, and are an asset to society in other ways. There are many who will idolize guys like McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc based solely on their on-field play, and I don't have a problem with that, because everyone is entitled to feel the way they want. Getting back to my point...as long as athletes are keeping to the integrity of the game while on the field, I don't care what they do off the field.

Anyone who has ever compromised the integrity of the game, through steroids/greenies/scuffing/etc, should be chastised in some way, no matter when it occured (ie steroid use before 1992, as you asked above). Do I have an answer for what the punishment should be? Well if we're talking about the past, perception by the public is the only thing that can be brought up.

Going back to what I said in my initial response. I think the only reason this is being made such a big deal now, as opposed to the *numerous, repeated, public* cheating in the past, is because people love the home run and don't want to see it being made meaningless.

Interesting stance...

1. How do you know those "everyday, hardworking" ballplayers aren't also taking 'roids? I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but I really do believe the 'roid problem is far more rampant than most want to admit. I see it much like the NFL in the late 70s or bodybuilding. Most everyone did it to keep their jobs.

2. It seems that you think people should be chastised for actions which were permissible at the time they did them, even if it later those actions are no longer permissible. Precognition is an awful steep requirement. I'm more of a "play by the rules" of the game kinda person.

3. The home run ball is being made meaningless by many other factors (see Arles and my posts above) that are far more meaningful than 'roids.

4. Integrity is good. Integrity is honorable. But players are paid to win. Unfortunately, in professional sports, those two things are usually mutually exclusive. Owners don't care about your integrity at contract time. Fans don't care about integrity when you strike out to lose the game. That's the ugly side of sports.

[Arles]

And to answer your original question: Personally, I wouldn't frown upon Sosa. He was using a legal substance, and surely, while the benefits he derived from using could be used to increase his performance, it isn't something that any other player couldn't legally obtain to "level the playing field."
See, I completely disagree here. There are many people that are scared of taking Creatine and similar "legal" supplements (ie, with Aphedra) because there have been no long term studies on their effects. So, by saying it's OK, you are essentially forcing players to take a mystery supplement to keep up that could be just as dangerous as steroids.

I think the only way to handle this is to ban all performance altering substances (like the NFL) and give a list of everything each season. The moment you allow one supplement with unknown side effects, you are creating another "steroids". It's just that it's not called steroids.

[HomerJSimpson]

But what if a study showed that creatine offered the exact "performance enhancement" related to baseball that steroids did? You would be OK with Creatine users because we didn't have enough info on long term effects to ban it yet?

From my standpoint, I don't see the legality as being the major issue here as shown by the comments on drinking, cocaine, ... It seems to me that the main source of outrage is that these guys broke "sacred" records potentially with the help of Steroids. And, in many people's mind, steroids are the buzzword for personal enhancement. But if it comes to pass that some of the "legal" supplements offer similar enhancement, why is that suddenly OK? By saying it's OK, you are saying that only the legal aspect matters - which put steroids in the same boat as the other drugs I cited earlier.


I said it was both together, and I stand by it. I didn't and still don't have a problem with Mac's use of Andro, because it was, at the time, legal and not against the rules. Shooting steroids? Illegal and enhancing, therefore getting an illegal edge over others. Using illegal drugs gives an unfair advantage, and encourages others to committ a crime. You still don't see how that is different than an OTC drug?

[Arles]

I said it was both together, and I stand by it. I didn't and still don't have a problem with Mac's use of Andro, because it was, at the time, legal and not against the rules. Shooting steroids? Illegal and enhancing, therefore getting an illegal edge over others. Using illegal drugs gives an unfair advantage, and encourages others to committ a crime. You still don't see how that is different than an OTC drug?
From a personal health standpoint? Sure.

From a standpoint of "baseball integrity", I'm not sure it matters. If someone can enhance themselves in a similar manner using legal substances or unknown items not even on the FDA radar (a la HGH knockoffs), I'm not sure where the difference comes in on the field. Either you ban them all or understand that some players will chance on to better "personal enhancements" and live with that.

[HomerJSimpson]

From a personal health standpoint? Sure.

From a standpoint of "baseball integrity", I'm not sure it matters. If someone can enhance themselves in a similar manner using legal substances or unknown items not even on the FDA radar (a la HGH knockoffs), I'm not sure where the difference comes in on the field. Either you ban them all or understand that some players will chance on to better "personal enhancements" and live with that.


I don't have a problem with your stance on banning all enhancements, but do you think that would even have a chance without all this pressure and attention that you claim to abhor?

[Arles]

I don't have a problem with your stance on banning all enhancements, but do you think that would even have a chance without all this pressure and attention that you claim to abhor?
Let me be clear, I don't mind all the pressure on baseball. In fact, as I posted earlier, I would like to see a little more. I'm just aggrivated by all the indignation and resentment shown to these star players like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire - as if they were the first players in baseball history to take avantage of loopholes to get a slight edge.

As I said, if the goal was to fix the steroid problem from here on in, it would have been simple to simply threaten to pull their anti-trust exemption unless a stronger policy was put into effect. Go ahead and bring out the baseball and MLBPA guys and watch them sweat on this. But I don't see what anyone gained by seeing McGwire act like a bewildered 70-year old man with glasses, Sosa lose his ability to understand english (with an interpretor next to him) and Schilling look like the "steroid mob" had his kids at gunpoint during the hearings. If congress wants to fix the problem, there's a much easier way to do that.

[Blackadar]

Let me be clear, I don't mind all the pressure on baseball. In fact, as I posted earlier, I would like to see a little more. I'm just aggrivated by all the indignation and resentment shown to these star players like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire - as if they were the first players in baseball history to take avantage of loopholes to get a slight edge.

As I said, if the goal was to fix the steroid problem from here on in, it would have been simple to simply threaten to pull their anti-trust exemption unless a stronger policy was put into effect. Go ahead and bring out the baseball and MLBPA guys and watch them sweat on this. But I don't see what anyone gained by seeing McGwire act like a bewildered 70-year old man with glasses, Sosa lose his ability to understand english (with an interpretor next to him) and Schilling look like the "steroid mob" had his kids at gunpoint during the hearings. If congress wants to fix the problem, there's a much easier way to do that.

Exactly.

Baseball can be fixed without the grandstanding and posturing that went on yesterday. I don't like seeing certain individuals embarassed when the guilt is much more collective.

[HomerJSimpson]

Let me be clear, I don't mind all the pressure on baseball. In fact, as I posted earlier, I would like to see a little more. I'm just aggrivated by all the indignation and resentment shown to these star players like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire - as if they were the first players in baseball history to take avantage of loopholes to get a slight edge.

And here is why we disagree. What you call "loopholes" I call "committing felonies."

As I said, if the goal was to fix the steroid problem from here on in, it would have been simple to simply threaten to pull their anti-trust exemption unless a stronger policy was put into effect. Go ahead and bring out the baseball and MLBPA guys and watch them sweat on this. But I don't see what anyone gained by seeing McGwire act like a bewildered 70-year old man with glasses, Sosa lose his ability to understand english (with an interpretor next to him) and Schilling look like the "steroid mob" had his kids at gunpoint during the hearings. If congress wants to fix the problem, there's a much easier way to do that.

I think it was important to show how idiotic they all are, and they were exposed as clods and frauds. These guys "are" the union, and it was quite fitting they were there.

[rkmsuf]

Exactly.

Baseball can be fixed without the grandstanding and posturing that went on yesterday. I don't like seeing certain individuals embarassed when the guilt is much more collective.

bah, Congress went easy on those guys. They really went after MLB players association lawyers, doctors, Fehr and Selig.

Everything else was nothing. McGwire f*cked himself. He could have easily answered 75% of the questions without naming names or himself.

Give me a break with the player pity. God forbid they trouble themselves with answering questions of Congress.

[ISiddiqui]

God forbid Congress actually do its job rather than this grandstanding political ploy which will solve nothing.

[Blackadar]

bah, Congress went easy on those guys. They really went after MLB players association lawyers, doctors, Fehr and Selig.

Everything else was nothing. McGwire f*cked himself. He could have easily answered 75% of the questions without naming names or himself.

Give me a break with the player pity. God forbid they trouble themselves with answering questions of Congress.

Bullshit. Those guys were subpoenaed with the intention of Congress to embarass them. Period. And I still question why Congress needed to waste taxpayer money and time with this farce.

Fuck, if they want to fix something, fix boxing. Baseball isn't fixing games and paying teams off to move them up in the standings, while cheating players out of their money and endangering their lives with manipulating medical records. Boxing may require the establishment of some national standards simply because there simply may be no one else to protect the people in the sport.

As for Mac? Yes he could have answered more questions. But then he would have been put in a crossfire on the follow-up questions. If you watched more than 2 mins of the questioning, you could see how many of those were "setup" questions. Otherwise, why the hell does it matter if a player who retired two years ago used steroids? At least he was consistent.

[Logan]

Interesting stance...

1. How do you know those "everyday, hardworking" ballplayers aren't also taking 'roids? I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but I really do believe the 'roid problem is far more rampant than most want to admit. I see it much like the NFL in the late 70s or bodybuilding. Most everyone did it to keep their jobs.

2. It seems that you think people should be chastised for actions which were permissible at the time they did them, even if it later those actions are no longer permissible. Precognition is an awful steep requirement. I'm more of a "play by the rules" of the game kinda person.

1. I understand where you're coming from in taking that stance, but I just don't agree, so I guess all I can say is if the players I was describing were taking steroids...well, then that's bad I guess :). I was thinking more on a sportswide scale (ie not just baseball...I think hockey players, for the most part, are the best athletes in the world when it comes to off-the-playing-field issues, but we can debate that another day).

2. I know we're coming back to different arguments here, but I cannot in any way defend a player who took steroids, just because it wasn't against the rules of baseball. So yes, in that instance they should be punished even though the actions were allowed at the time. As someone said in jest earlier...just because there's not a rule that says you can't poison the opposition before a game, doesn't make it right. :)

I think I'm done with debating this subject...not out of stubborness or anything like that, I just don't see any other resolution besides agreeing to disagree on about six different issues concerning steroids, the law, and baseball in general.

[DaddyTorgo]

with regards to people saying steroids weren't prohibited in baseball at the time so records should stand, which I've seen on the board and also heard on the radio. That's a CRAP argument. They may not have been prohibited in baseball at the time, but in the eyes of the LAW they were an ILLEGAL SUBSTANCE. So they shouldn't have to be specifically outlawed in baseball for baseball to take any action against the players.

And that's also why this matters moreso than say players playing in different eras, or the absence of black players in the major leagues. Those things were not illegal under federal law at the time! Was it morally abhorrent that Negro League players didn't get to play in MLB until recently. Yes, of course. But does that invalidate the records set by the white players (and the Negro players also)? No. Why? Because it wasn't ILLEGAL under federal law to exclude them. Morally horrible yes. Illegal. No.

And as for players using greenies, I say that ought to be covered under the drug testing policy too! I want a CLEAN game. I think it ought to be like the Olympic testing policy, or even the NFL policy (which isn't perfect, but which is quite strict). All that stuff ought to be covered.

Comparing players across eras? There are tools to do this, and it is also understood that it is difficult for this reason so it's always open to some debate.

[DaddyTorgo]

dola

Peter Gammons was on WEEI today and I don't know if this was reported elsewhere, but he was quoting an unnamed KC Royals player who was FURIOUS that this current policy is not what the players had voted on, that Fehr and Selig had tweaked it (including the 10,000 fine and not revealing the identity) in order to protect the huge stars that drive the union. Gammons said that this feeling was rampant through the rank-and-file of the union too. I was tired, so apologies if I got any little details in this wrong.