Poker: Tips for an advanced beginner?

[Maple Leafs]

So I've finally jumped on the poker bandwagon. As mentioned a month or two ago, I was invited to a home game with some reasonably good players. I did OK, had a decent time, and that was about it -- it was fun, but I was in over my head with that group and didn't really feel like donating money to them every week.

Since then, though, I've been able to help get a separate group going. This group is closer to my skill level (i.e. beginners, but trying to learn) and has evolved into a fairly regular weekly game. We're still playing at a low level, with relatively small buy-ins and a very informal atmosphere. However, the games are taken seriously enough that I don'tt hink I'm out of line looking for a little help from the more advanced players here.

(Edit: this is Texas hold'em, no limit, tournament style although with occasional re-buys.)

Some questions:

- For whatever reason, our games tend to start with very low blinds for the first half hour or so. This has the effect of having a lot of people call to see the flop early on, with betting only getting serious post-flop. Should this impact my strategy? I try to play tight, but it seems like I should be paying the relatively small sum to see if I hit a flop. On the other hand, am I just as likely to trap myself into chasing a loser?

- When we get down to heads up play, it seems like most players will either check/fold or go all-in. Any tips on how to play this? What sort of hand are you comfortable betting it all on against a semi-loose player in this situation? I feel like I play these hands too tight, waiting for a monster while my opponents takes the blinds over and over.

- We have a lot of check-raisers. It's to the point where I'm afraid to make normal poker moves like raising in position with an average hand after it's been checked around to try to drive people out, since I feel like those checks don't tell me anything. Any tips on dealing with a table where the check-raise is common?

[Ragone]

best tip i can give is to learn how to play your posistion on the table.. are you first to act? last to act.. in front of a loose fish/tight player.. behind a loose fish/tight player?

[rkmsuf]

1. Early on is somewhat meaningless. Keep in mind the size of the pot before committing chips. I mean no matter the hand why bet a lot to win a little. Personally I like to try and play it for a big score early which means slow playing a very strong hand and hope someone gets cooky.

2. Depends on the stack size. You can wait for your hand if you have the chips. If not you will have to roll the dice at some point. Holding an A or K is a great hand heads up.

3. You need to bet out early. In your example still raise.

[Ragone]

and in head to head play.. remember more cards are in play.. so hands you'd normally not play are better values..


suited connectors (6/7 clubs.. for example)
Anything with Ace suited A/2..(which is actually a suited connector as well)

[GoldenEagle]

- For whatever reason, our games tend to start with very low blinds for the first half hour or so. This has the effect of having a lot of people call to see the flop early on, with betting only getting serious post-flop. Should this impact my strategy? I try to play tight, but it seems like I should be paying the relatively small sum to see if I hit a flop. On the other hand, am I just as likely to trap myself into chasing a loser?

It is in my opinion that playing marginal hands from a marginal position will always get you in trouble after the flop no matter what the call. As an example say I have a KJo in mid position. I put in 15 to see the flop. It is raised to 30 before the flop. After the flop a king hits and you put the majority of your stack in the pot. You are out kicked by an ace or queen. It could have been avoided if you would have laid your cards down pre flop.

[Ragone]

It is in my opinion that playing marginal hands from a marginal position will always get you in trouble after the flop no matter what the call. As an example say I have a KJo in mid position. I put in 15 to see the flop. It is raised to 30 before the flop. After the flop a king hits and you put the majority of your stack in the pot. You are out kicked by an ace or queen. It could have been avoided if you would have laid your cards down pre flop.


True, but you cannot always be afraid of being outkicked.. otherwise you are gonna throw away more winning hands then losing ones.. especially in the instance you give..


Now i'd understand throwing away say K-3 when a king hits and a big raise is before you.. But maybe not K-J :)

[Maple Leafs]

suited connectors (6/7 clubs.. for example)
Anything with Ace suited A/2..(which is actually a suited connector as well)
Interesting point here, I'd like to explore this further.

I was heads up in a side-game recently and held JT (may not have been suited). My opponent pushed all in with a similar stack and I called. He flipped over something like K4, nothing hit on the board and he won the game.

Afterwards I was kicking myself for calling, since I figured he had an A or K with low kicker. My thinking is that a hand like JT is better against a lot of opponents where I'm going to win a big pot if I hit my straight. But heads up, I didn't think (in hindsight) that the chances of a straight were enough to make it worth my call considering I knew he held top card.

[GoldenEagle]

True, but you cannot always be afraid of being outkicked.. otherwise you are gonna throw away more winning hands then losing ones.. especially in the instance you give..


Now i'd understand throwing away say K-3 when a king hits and a big raise is before you.. But maybe not K-J :)
I think KJ is one of those hands people get in trouble with, including me. I will play it from the button or a late position but not from early or middle. Very few fish will throw away AK or KQ and they will raise when they see the king. From a late position, you can see this.

[Ragone]

In the situation you gave.. you should have pushed harder with the hand you had.. that would have created the doubt in your opponents mind that you either had a-high card or pocket pairs..


Of course.. if you wasn't first to act.. this point is invalid :)

[Ragone]

I think KJ is one of those hands people get in trouble with, including me. I will play it from the button or a late position but not from early or middle. Very few fish will throw away AK or KQ and they will raise when they see the king. From a late position, you can see this.

True fish will raise with anything following a A-K..


K-2.. OMG RAISE!

[SirFozzie]

When it comes to putting all your money in the middle, you want more then just suited connectors in your hand. Like cards on the board that help your suited connectors.

Until you see cards on the board, you are a six outer+Flush/straights. If he has a higher card, not only do you need to pair up, but you'd need two pairs/straight/flush to beat him if he top pairs you.

Pre flop, it's a limp and see hand. Post Flop.. well that depends on the board of course. If you have an open ended straight draw and a flush draw, you're golden. If you've completely missed, time to fold up shot.

[GoldenEagle]

Interesting point here, I'd like to explore this further.

I was heads up in a side-game recently and held JT (may not have been suited). My opponent pushed all in with a similar stack and I called. He flipped over something like K4, nothing hit on the board and he won the game.

Afterwards I was kicking myself for calling, since I figured he had an A or K with low kicker. My thinking is that a hand like JT is better against a lot of opponents where I'm going to win a big pot if I hit my straight. But heads up, I didn't think (in hindsight) that the chances of a straight were enough to make it worth my call considering I knew he held top card.
You want to play your drawing hands against many opponents. Drawing hands are your money makes. If your only against one opponent your not going to make enough chips to justify the risk.

[Maple Leafs]

You want to play your drawing hands against many opponents. Drawing hands are your money makes. If your only against one opponent your not going to make enough chips to justify the risk.Thanks GE and Foz. That confirms what I thought (although I wish I'd thought if before I pushed in).

[Radii]

- For whatever reason, our games tend to start with very low blinds for the first half hour or so. This has the effect of having a lot of people call to see the flop early on, with betting only getting serious post-flop. Should this impact my strategy? I try to play tight, but it seems like I should be paying the relatively small sum to see if I hit a flop. On the other hand, am I just as likely to trap myself into chasing a loser?

If you get to see the flops cheaply then your suited connectors and low pocket pairs should be played from most any position in this early level. If there's a lot of pre-flop raising then you have to back off some of these speculative hands but if a lot of people limp in the first level then you can do the same. But you have to be careful, you're looking to hit big, sets/straights/flushes really, maybe a hidden two pair. If you flop top pair with 98 suited, you'd like to pick up the limps, but you don't want to commit a lot of your chips... you're going for a big big hand here, and likely a well hidden one.

We have a lot of check-raisers. It's to the point where I'm afraid to make normal poker moves like raising in position with an average hand after it's been checked around to try to drive people out, since I feel like those checks don't tell me anything. Any tips on dealing with a table where the check-raise is common?


I think the general guideline here is that you can't bluff as much(or try to pick up pots) against a habitual check-raiser. You still need to do it some though, but lay it down when they come back over you... but that sets up the all-in when you do have a hand. The big question though, do you know what they'll check raise you with? Just for the hell of it or do they do this with top pair? Or only with bigger hands? Or weaker hands like 2nd pair or draws?

[Maple Leafs]

I think the general guideline here is that you can't bluff as much(or try to pick up pots) against a habitual check-raiser. You still need to do it some though, but lay it down when they come back over you... but that sets up the all-in when you do have a hand. The big question though, do you know what they'll check raise you with? Just for the hell of it or do they do this with top pair? Or only with bigger hands? Or weaker hands like 2nd pair or draws?My experience with this group is that bluffing is difficult. In addition the check-raisers, you'll also see people making calls when they don't have odds, and even the occasional "I know I'm beat but I need to see what you have" calls.

That's part of my frustration with a lot of the poker advice I've been reading -- it all seems to assume that you're up against good players. I suppose you could argue that you shouldn't need advice against beginners, but it would be nice to read some tips aimed at people who don't play at tables where everyone is calculating pot odds and respectfully folding to any sign of strength.

[GoldenEagle]

That's part of my frustration with a lot of the poker advice I've been reading -- it all seems to assume that you're up against good players. I suppose you could argue that you shouldn't need advice against beginners, but it would be nice to read some tips aimed at people who don't play at tables where everyone is calculating pot odds and respectfully folding to any sign of strength.
I think the best experience you can get against weak players is in on the Internet. It is not a science. Weak players get lucky sometimes. I have been taking notes on weaker players in tournaments and I have concluded that:

-They are going to raise with top pair with a medium kicker
-They like to call small bets to see what you have
-When they have real strength, they go all in
-Weaker players are more likely to bluff on the turn or river than the flop.

When a weaker player puts in chips go along with it. You will get out drawn sometimes but the majority of time you will make money. If he makes a big raise and the board is scary you will have to fold. However, if you raise him a large number of chips he may fold on the flop or turn.

Note: I do not recommend this strategy on obvious drawing hands, even with weaker players.

[BrianD]

I think the best experience you can get against weak players is in on the Internet. It is not a science. Weak players get lucky sometimes. I have been taking notes on weaker players in tournaments and I have concluded that:

-They are going to raise with top pair with a medium kicker
-They like to call small bets to see what you have
-When they have real strength, they go all in
-Weaker players are more likely to bluff on the turn or river than the flop.

When a weaker player puts in chips go along with it. You will get out drawn sometimes but the majority of time you will make money. If he makes a big raise and the board is scary you will have to fold. However, if you raise him a large number of chips he may fold on the flop or turn.

Note: I do not recommend this strategy on obvious drawing hands, even with weaker players.


Aren't most players more likely to bluff on the turn or the river than the flop?

[primelord]

suited connectors (6/7 clubs.. for example)
I haven't made it any father in this thread yet, but this not correct. Low suited connectors get most of their value from their ability to get someone to pay you off when they hit a straight or flush. When you are heads up it is not very likely someone is going to pay you off on a connected board like that.

Heads-up suited connectors values go down and the value of broadway cards goes up.

[primelord]

It is in my opinion that playing marginal hands from a marginal position will always get you in trouble after the flop no matter what the call. As an example say I have a KJo in mid position. I put in 15 to see the flop. It is raised to 30 before the flop. After the flop a king hits and you put the majority of your stack in the pot. You are out kicked by an ace or queen. It could have been avoided if you would have laid your cards down pre flop.
You should be playing KJo from middle position against weak players. In your example your problem isn't that you limped with KJ and then called the raise. It's that you put in most of your stack on the flop with only top pair decent kicker. A pot sized bet wouldn't have been anywhere near as costly to you and it likely would have the same desired effect as a huge bet. You areen't giving anyway proper odds to call almost any draw with a pot sized bet and someone with an under pair or worse is likelt to at best just call your pot sized bet.

You should be playing that hand from middle position, and you need to be aggressive with it when you hit the flop, but not that aggressive. Especially early in a tournament.

[primelord]

Pre flop, it's a limp and see hand. Post Flop.. well that depends on the board of course. If you have an open ended straight draw and a flush draw, you're golden. If you've completely missed, time to fold up shot.
I read Maple Leafs response to this and I want to clarify a few things. I am not certain about which stage int he game Fozzie is referring to here, but heads up this is bad advice. When you are heads up every single hand should be a raise or fold situation. Heads up is an ultra aggressive game. You don;t need to push all-in on every playable hand, but if you want to play you should raise. If you see someone just completing the small blind a lot heads up then they are not a good heads up player.

Just checking the big blind is of course fine if you have crap, but limping in with something like A3 heads up is awful. And don't get cute with hands like AA and KK and just limp those. Sure it sucks a bit to only take the blinds with AA, but it's better to just be raising all your good hands than trying to draw him in when you catch a monster. It looks too obvious even to a poor player. If you are the SB and you have a hand you want to play (which should be a very wide range heads up.) then you should raise. If the BB comes back over the top of you then you need to evaluate how strong your hand is and how likely you opponent is to be pushing with any two cards. If you raise 3X the BB with A8o and your opponent pushes you need to decide what kind of hand he was likely to do that with. Their are many guys who will push heads up with any paint. If that is the case you should call. If he is only likely to re-raise with a very strong hand you should fold.

When you are the BB if your opponent just completes the Sb and you have a weak hand just check. Again if you have a playable hand you must raise here. Don;t call an all-in with a hand like JT even suited. There is almost no chance your opponent pushed with a hand that you are ahead of pre-flop. A hand as weak as Q2o is a favorite over JTs heads up. Hands like Axo and Kxo have far more value heads up than in full games and are more valuable than small suited connectors.

Those are just some quick thoughts.

[primelord]

My experience with this group is that bluffing is difficult. In addition the check-raisers, you'll also see people making calls when they don't have odds, and even the occasional "I know I'm beat but I need to see what you have" calls.

That's part of my frustration with a lot of the poker advice I've been reading -- it all seems to assume that you're up against good players. I suppose you could argue that you shouldn't need advice against beginners, but it would be nice to read some tips aimed at people who don't play at tables where everyone is calculating pot odds and respectfully folding to any sign of strength.
Read Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Skalnasky, and Malmuth. It is specifically about playing against bad players. It is not a tournament book, but should still give you a good feel for playing against weak opponents.

To clear something up though most of the advice you read isn't really just aimed at playing against good players. Let's say you have AA. You raise pre-flop and one opponent who is holding T8o calls. He should have folded. If he would have folded you would have won the blinds which id good for you. However the fact that he called is also good for you. You are more than a 4:1 favorite to win this hand by the river. A call is very good. Now let's say the flop is J 7 4 rainbow. You make a bet about the size of the pot. Your opponent incorrectly calls to chase his gut shot. He was getting 2:1 on his money and needed 11:1 to make the call correct. Even though he called both options were good for you. If he folds you win the pot. If he doesn't he is putting a lot of money into the pot on a hand he is very unlikely to win.

When your opponents make msitakes you profit, but generally don't see the profit in the short term. Your opponents will hit those long shots from time to time, but that doesn't mean you played the hand incorrectly. The general strategy against poor players is just don't bluff. They won't fold so why try to make them. They will however pay you off when you hit a big hand.

[GoldenEagle]

You should be playing KJo from middle position against weak players. In your example your problem isn't that you limped with KJ and then called the raise. It's that you put in most of your stack on the flop with only top pair decent kicker. A pot sized bet wouldn't have been anywhere near as costly to you and it likely would have the same desired effect as a huge bet. You areen't giving anyway proper odds to call almost any draw with a pot sized bet and someone with an under pair or worse is likelt to at best just call your pot sized bet.

You should be playing that hand from middle position, and you need to be aggressive with it when you hit the flop, but not that aggressive. Especially early in a tournament.
Well, what I gave above was just a random scenario on how a player can lose some chips with a marginal hand (which I believe KJo is) from a middle position. From the button, I would raise with this hand assuming no else had shown any strength. Of course, the only thing I would raise on the flop is with top pair of jacks (assuming I did not flop a monster) or it looks the board missed everyone.

I guess it is just different strokes for different people. I would prefer to be patient and let the weaker players accumulate chips from one another and make a move after I get good reads.

[GoldenEagle]

Aren't most players more likely to bluff on the turn or the river than the flop?
It just depends. If you are up against Josh Areih he is going to bluff everywhere and anywhere. Maniacs will also do that. A stronger player may ‘bluff’ after the flop if it looks like the board missed everyone and he/she is holding a pair of over cards and has position.

[Mountain]

I play in a lot of low level sit n gos at party poker. My win rate, which is defined as the percentage of times I finish in the top3 (which is the money) is around 46% for over 200 tournamnets played.

I advocate playing tight early and then getting agressive when the blinds go up .... generally the 50/100 range I'll start playing really aggressive. You can never win the tournament early but you sure can lose it. I don't even attempt blind steals until the blinds have raised three times. The advantage to this approach is you have established a tight image of only playing the premium hands early. Then you take advantage of their read of you by being aggressive later.

Also Hold'em is a high card game. Try only putting money in the pot in the later stages of the tournament when you have a Q,K,or A in your hand. Frequently you will catch people playing those meduim connectors and kill them.

[primelord]

Well, what I gave above was just a random scenario on how a player can lose some chips with a marginal hand (which I believe KJo is) from a middle position. From the button, I would raise with this hand assuming no else had shown any strength. Of course, the only thing I would raise on the flop is with top pair of jacks (assuming I did not flop a monster) or it looks the board missed everyone.

I guess it is just different strokes for different people. I would prefer to be patient and let the weaker players accumulate chips from one another and make a move after I get good reads.
I realize you were just making a scenario up, but you were using that scenario to illustrate why it is bad to play KJo from middle position. However it would not be a mistake to play KJo against poor players in that position. The only way you can lose a significant amount of chips in that situation is to over bet the pot like you did in your example. That was the mistake. Not playing KJo up front.

Also you should only be raising if you flop top pair jacks. Despite the pre-flop raise there is still a very good chance your hand is the best hand in your scenario. Your opponent could have QQ-99, AQ, AJ and if he is a bad player maybe even a much wider range of hands. KJ when you flopa K is a strong hand, but putting in a large portion of your stack would be a mistake. A pot sized bet accomplishes the same thing and doesn't risk much of your stack.

I am not meaning to pick on you. If you don't feel comfortable playing hands like KJo from middle position then that is fine. However against a weak field it is absolutely a +EV play and when someone is asking for advice I just feel the need to correct advice that suggests passing up +EV situations.

[Maple Leafs]

Well, we had our weekly game last night. I went in planning to apply some of my new knowledge.

After a long night of having no cards (I literally took two hands in three+ hours) I was down to a tiny stack, ready to blinded out the next time around the table. Rather than wait for the inevitable, I made a stand with KJs and hit two pair on the flop to get back into the game. Half an hour later I was sitting with a huge stack after a ridiculous run of luck, and I ended up winning the whole thing.

The late run was lots of fun, but it was luck -- I was taking hands I had no business winning. But I feel like I really won the night early on by refusing to let myself get trapped. I layed down some good hands, saved myself a few chips that I normally would have lost, and in the end it allowed me to survive just long enough to get a hand worth making a stand with.

My most controversial play was about a half dozen hands in. In mid-late position I limp in with everyone else on very cheap blinds with K4. Flop comes KKQ. It's checked around to me and I resist the urge to slowplay. I raise it about the size of the pot. The player to my left immediately doubles my bet. It folds around back to me. After a minute or two I decide she must be raising with the other king, and since she almost certainly has me out-kicked I throw my hand away.

As we often do, I showed my neighbor my cards before tossing them in. He thought I'd lost my mind -- "you flop three kings and throw it away, are you insane?" -- but I know I did the right thing. That's exactly the sort of hand I couldn't have folded a few weeks ago, and it would have cost me all my chips. (I found out after the game that she was holding K6).

So I guess I've been sold on the value of tight play early. Thanks guys.

[SirFozzie]

Ok, this is something I've been called on a bunch by folks here at FOFC, and I have yet to make the change, but I see it in your play, and I gotta say..

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

Not in folding the K4 in your hand post-flop, playing it in the first place.

If you're not going to keep them when played back at with a dream flop (KKQ is probably the best flop you can realistically hope for here), why are you throwing money into the table in the first place.

I can understand pot odds and the like.. but.. eh.... it's my worst weakness (and a few times in FOFC, I've gotten caught playing an K-Middle or A-Middle/Low, and been stubborn about it when I hit the flop, only to be outkicked). Putting anything in with K4 is a -EV play.

[primelord]

So I guess I've been sold on the value of tight play early.
Are you sure about that? :)

[Maple Leafs]

Ok, this is something I've been called on a bunch by folks here at FOFC, and I have yet to make the change, but I see it in your play, and I gotta say..

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?See my original post. The flops are ridiculously low for the first 20 or 40 minutes of our games. I'll still throw away garbage hands (unlike some of the people I play with, who'll pay the blinds to see the flop with anything), but I will usually play something as poor as a K or A with low kicker.

Barring two pair or some other miracle flop, I'm looking for two things here: hit the flop big with my A or K, and not see any obvious signs that I'm still beat. In the situation above the chances were that the fourth king was buried in the deck and I should have won the small pot (and maybe more if I had the good luck to be up against someone playing a Q), but it didn't turn out that way.

But yes, if the blinds were where they should be, I'm not even in the hand at all. Probably shouldn't be at any price from a pure odds standpoint, but in a fun game I will stretch.

(Primelord: "Tight" is still a relative term based on the group I play with. If I tightened up much more I'd never win a decent pot from these folks when I did bet.)

[primelord]

(Primelord: "Tight" is still a relative term based on the group I play with. If I tightened up much more I'd never win a decent pot from these folks when I did bet.)
It's true you should loosen up some against weaker players. Was the hand at least suited? Playing K4o out of middle position is absolutely a bad play no matter how bad your opponents are. Playing K4s I still think is bad, but it might be slightly profitable if your opponents are very bad.

The blinds in almost all tournaments start out very low. Just because they are low doesn't suddenly make a hand profitable. I understand what you are saying. You weren't going to risk a large portion of your chips so it was a low risk high reward situation. However in this case it did end up costing you a pot sized bet. Not to mention that even when the blinds are low if you keep calling hands like this you are most oft he time just throwing the price of a BB away. That adds up after awhile.

When trying to improve your game you should be striving to always make plays that are +EV. You are looking at the problem the wrong way if you are basing it just on what level the blinds are. It's a good thing that are playing tighter, but if you are regularly playing K with a low kicker form middle position you still aren't playing tight enough.

[Maple Leafs]

It's true you should loosen up some against weaker players. Was the hand at least suited? Playing K4o out of middle position is absolutely a bad play no matter how bad your opponents are. Playing K4s I still think is bad, but it might be slightly profitable if your opponents are very bad.

The blinds in almost all tournaments start out very low. Just because they are low doesn't suddenly make a hand profitable. I understand what you are saying. You weren't going to risk a large portion of your chips so it was a low risk high reward situation. However in this case it did end up costing you a pot sized bet. Not to mention that even when the blinds are low if you keep calling hands like this you are most oft he time just throwing the price of a BB away. That adds up after awhile.

When trying to improve your game you should be striving to always make plays that are +EV. You are looking at the problem the wrong way if you are basing it just on what level the blinds are. It's a good thing that are playing tighter, but if you are regularly playing K with a low kicker form middle position you still aren't playing tight enough.
Understood.