3 year old boy left in daycare van

[Lathum]

This is a horrible story.

[URL=http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/07/van.death.ap/index.html]


LITTLE ROCK, Arkansas (AP) -- A 3-year-old boy died after being left in a day-care van for hours while the temperature was in the 90s, and the driver was charged with manslaughter, police said Tuesday.

Marcellus Johnson, was to have been dropped off at his home in Little Rock around 3 p.m. Monday, but van driver Rancocas Foreman skipped the boy's stop, went home and parked and locked the van before leaving for his second job, authorities said.

Marcellus' parents called police after 8 p.m., and around the same time Foreman remembered the boy, went home to check the van and found Marcellus' body, police spokesman Sgt. Terry Hastings said.

While officers were investigating at the Child Care Center of Arkansas, Foreman arrived and told police "he knows where the child is and the child is not OK," Hastings said.

Foreman, 22, of Little Rock, was charged with manslaughter because he could have easily seen the boy in the van, Hastings said. The temperature reached 94 degrees Monday afternoon in Little Rock.

"The child was clearly visible from the driver's seat," with his legs dangling in the aisle, Hastings said.

Marcellus was to have been dropped off first on Foreman's route, but Foreman had trouble making a left turn from a busy street and went on to his next stop and did not return, Hastings said.

Foreman was freed on $10,000 bail. He didn't have a listed phone number, and there was no answer Tuesday morning at a phone number for the day-care center.

Hastings said he had no explanation for why there was about a five-hour gap between the time the boy was to have been dropped off and police being called.

[Eaglesfan27]

This is a horrible story. That 5 hour gap between the time the boy was to have been dropped off and the police being called is shocking. I wonder what happened there?

[Raiders Army]

What about the parents? My son is supposed to get home at 3. Five hours later I call the police???

[JeeberD]

Unfortunately, there are stories like this every summer... :(

[Ksyrup]

"Hastings said he had no explanation for why there was about a five-hour gap between the time the boy was to have been dropped off and police being called."


I don't understand this statement. Earlier in the article, it says this:

"...van driver Rancocas Foreman skipped the boy's stop, went home and parked and locked the van before leaving for his second job..."


and this:

"Marcellus' parents called police after 8 p.m., and around the same time Foreman remembered the boy..."



Seems pretty obvious to me that the guy was in a rush to get to his second job, somehow forgot about AND didn't see the boy in the back of the van, then remembered while at his second job that he didn't drop the kid off, realized that he was still in the van, and rushed back to the van to find the kid.

I've had situations where I've all of a sudden remembered something hours later, for no apparent reason and without any relation to what i was doing at the time it came back to me. Never something this serious, of course. But I can imagine that's what happened here.

EDIT : D'oh - I guess that's referring to the parents, not the guy.

[gstelmack]

What about the parents? My son is supposed to get home at 3. Five hours later I call the police???
Five hours is a long time, but I could see various communication issues at work here. Trying to contact the daycare center to see what the delay was, for one. Maybe a baby sitter meets the kid at home until the parents get home at 6:00, and then the parents start the hunt? More info needed before teeing off on the parents, although it definitely sounds bad for them.

But that daycare worker is in a WORLD of trouble. I've seen some of the hoops my local daycare center goes through keeping track of kids (CONSTANTLY counting the number of kids), and this is HUGE negligence on the part of the driver.

[DanGarion]

But that daycare worker is in a WORLD of trouble. I've seen some of the hoops my local daycare center goes through keeping track of kids (CONSTANTLY counting the number of kids), and this is HUGE negligence on the part of the driver.


But does the guy deserve to be thrown in jail for negligence? What will he learn from making this mistake. Just from the article it appears to me the guy probably feels terrible for what happened. We have all made mistakes and this could easily be any of us in this man's shoes.

[rkmsuf]

But does the guy deserve to be thrown in jail for negligence? What will he learn from making this mistake. Just from the article it appears to me the guy probably feels terrible for what happened. We have all made mistakes and this could easily be any of us in this man's shoes.


sarcasm on?

[Ksyrup]

No, it couldn't. It could not be me, or any one of millions of responsible people in the world. We all make mistakes, but not with things that are this important.

[Ksyrup]

sarcasm on?
I would hope so, but...he is from the OC.

[rkmsuf]

No, it couldn't. It could not be me, or any one of millions of responsible people in the world. We all make mistakes, but not with things that are this important.


I mean it's not like the guy overcharged someone for a muffler job or forgot to put pickles on somebody's Bic Mac.

[DanGarion]

sarcasm on?

I guess so...

[Warhammer]

My problem is why wasn't the 3 year old able to call for help or bring attention to the fact that dude missed his stop? I have a 3 year old and if I miss a turn, he is screaming about it. Or, did dude ignore said child and go on about his business?

For some reason, I think it was the latter.

[DanGarion]

My problem is why wasn't the 3 year old able to call for help or bring attention to the fact that dude missed his stop? I have a 3 year old and if I miss a turn, he is screaming about it. Or, did dude ignore said child and go on about his business?

For some reason, I think it was the latter.

Or the child feel asleep.

[stkelly52]

The point is that it is not as if the guy intentionally tried to kill the child. I am sure that he feels devistated about this.

[Blackadar]

My Wife went through a phase where I really worried about this every single day. She was so forgetful and I'd just get concerned that she would forget to drop the kid off one day. After all, she did back the car out of the garage with the CAR DOOR OPEN. So this kind of story just horrifies me. Truly sad.

[Ksyrup]

The point is that it is not as if the guy intentionally tried to kill the child. I am sure that he feels devistated about this.
As do people who run a red light and kill someone driving through the green light. They deserve more than their internal guilt for such behavior, accidental or not.

[Raiders Army]

As do people who run a red light and kill someone driving through the green light. They deserve more than their internal guilt for such behavior, accidental or not.
I agree, but that example is a little different. A driver who runs a red light knowingly does so, whereas this guy was negligent. I believe he should be punished heavily, but there is a slight difference in your example.

[Samdari]

The point is that it is not as if the guy intentionally tried to kill the child. I am sure that he feels devistated about this.

Hence a manslaughter charge.

Negligence resulting in the death of another human being is a crime, regardless of whether or not one feels bad about such negligence. I cannot believe the number of people sticking up for him. Yes, I am sure he feels bad. But, his actions killed a three year old boy, let him feel bad in prison.

[KevinNU7]

The point is that it is not as if the guy intentionally tried to kill the child. I am sure that he feels devistated about this.
This is why he is being charged with manslaughter and not murder

[DanGarion]

Hence a manslaughter charge.

Negligence resulting in the death of another human being is a crime, regardless of whether or not one feels bad about such negligence. I cannot believe the number of people sticking up for him. Yes, I am sure he feels bad. But, his actions killed a three year old boy, let him feel bad in prison.
So it would be different if it was at 20 year old adult?

[hhiipp]

It would have probably been charged as murder if the dead person was a 20 year old, because any non-handicapped 20 year old would have been able to get out of the van if there was no foul play.

I agree with the manslaughter charge. It was his responsibility to make sure all those kids got home safely, he failed to do so and one of the kids died due to his negligence. Now he gets to think about it for a few years behind bars. Bright side is he wont have to work 2 jobs there to make ends meet.

[Lathum]

So it would be different if it was at 20 year old adult?

No, the 20 yr old still has a family and a life wiped out by someone elses stupidity.

[oliegirl]

But does the guy deserve to be thrown in jail for negligence? What will he learn from making this mistake. Just from the article it appears to me the guy probably feels terrible for what happened. We have all made mistakes and this could easily be any of us in this man's shoes.

I have forgotten that I put a can of soda on top of my car and drove off with it, I have left my keys in my trunk lock accidentally, I left the keys in the car with the car running while I ran into a store, but I would never, ever, forget my child, or any child for that matter, and leave them in a car unattended. That is beyond negligent and he deserves to go to jail for what he has done.

[DanGarion]

I have forgotten that I put a can of soda on top of my car and drove off with it, I have left my keys in my trunk lock accidentally, I left the keys in the car with the car running while I ran into a store, but I would never, ever, forget my child, or any child for that matter, and leave them in a car unattended. That is beyond negligent and he deserves to go to jail for what he has done.
I'm not denying that he shouldn't go to jail. But he made a mistake and we all make mistakes.

[oliegirl]

I'm not denying that he shouldn't go to jail. But he made a mistake and we all make mistakes.


You asked if he should go to jail, and I think he should...we all make mistakes, yes, but part of being a responsible adult is making sure that your mistakes don't cost other people their lives.

[DanGarion]

You asked if he should go to jail, and I think he should...we all make mistakes, yes, but part of being a responsible adult is making sure that your mistakes don't cost other people their lives.
Yeah I reread my original post and I made it a little vague that I thought he should go to jail. But it shouldn't be anything drastic, IMO.

[Lathum]

Yeah I reread my original post and I made it a little vague that I thought he should go to jail. But it shouldn't be anything drastic, IMO.
try telling that to the kids parents

[Raiders Army]

Yeah I reread my original post and I made it a little vague that I thought he should go to jail. But it shouldn't be anything drastic, IMO.
Maybe the little boy died quietly in his sleep...then again, some could look at it as torture before death. I'm in the latter camp.

[Samdari]

So it would be different if it was at 20 year old adult?

Did you read what I said?

Negligence resulting in the death of a human being is a crime. Any human being.

[panerd]

Or maybe he could have had a few drinks and killed a 3-year in another car and he would probably be looking at less jail time.

[DanGarion]

Or maybe he could have had a few drinks and killed a 3-year in another car and he would probably be looking at less jail time.


Which is bullshit, something like that does deserve more jail time IMO.

[rkmsuf]

Did you read what I said?

Negligence resulting in the death of a human being is a crime. Any human being.

even Carrot Top?

[gstelmack]

Which is bullshit, something like that does deserve more jail time IMO.
Why? In both cases an action was taken that led to the unintentional death of a 3-year-old. What's the difference?

There is no way this guy should not have been checking his van every time he left it to make sure there were no children on board. Every single stinkin' time. No excuses.

[DanGarion]

Why? In both cases an action was taken that led to the unintentional death of a 3-year-old. What's the difference?

There is no way this guy should not have been checking his van every time he left it to make sure there were no children on board. Every single stinkin' time. No excuses.
Because there are different circumstances. One someone was an idiot for driving drunk, the other a guy forgot to check the seats of the van he was driving. Both are terrible things to happen, but I just feel one is more negligent then the other.

[rkmsuf]

Because there are different circumstances. One someone was an idiot for driving drunk, the other a guy forgot to check the seats of the van he was driving. Both are terrible things to happen, but I just feel one is more negligent then the other.

How is that? What difference does it make how you kill someone? The kid is DEAD.

I'd say this guy is probably more of an idiot for not being able to complete a simple task.

[Celeval]

How is that? What difference does it make how you kill someone? The kid is DEAD.

I'd say this guy is probably more of an idiot for not being able to complete a simple task.
Driving drunk is a specific choice being made that puts someone in danger, and imho should put it above negligence.

This is textbook negligence - so manslaughter.

[rkmsuf]

Driving drunk is a specific choice being made that puts someone in danger, and imho should put it above negligence.

This is textbook negligence - so manslaughter.

His point was one case was more negligent than another. I don't see it.

[KevinNU7]

Because there are different circumstances. One someone was an idiot for driving drunk, the other a guy forgot to check the seats of the van he was driving. Both are terrible things to happen, but I just feel one is more negligent then the other.
Let's say you are driving down a 35 MPH street going 30-35 MPH. You turn your eyes off the road to grab a snack out of the glove compartment. You look back up and you realize you have jsut blown a red light and hit a pedestrian crossing the street. Your neglict deserves jail time, even if you didn't mean for it to happen

[DanGarion]

How is that? What difference does it make how you kill someone? The kid is DEAD.

I'd say this guy is probably more of an idiot for not being able to complete a simple task.
You know what nevermind. Everyone on this board is perfect and never makes a mistake that COULD cost someones life. I was wrong.

You know I put a cooler in my truck a couple weekends ago that I thought was secure enough in the truck bed. The lid flew off it while I was on the freeway, fortunately nothing serious happened.

Also I have a job where my job function is technical support for commercial/business high speed internet service. All of the sudden my company installed a telephone that we are required to answer if it rings (we also provide digital telephone VOIP service). If that phone is ringing it's a 911 operator or the Police department calling because the wrong address is in the database for a customer that is having a 911 emergency. Now if I take that call I ( remember I'm just a TECHNICAL SUPPORT rep) am responsible for providing them with the correct information. Now if by chance I provide the wrong information I'm not negligent for my actions, even though nothing in my job duties states I'm supposed to be handling services in a emergency situation. My point is people are sometimes put into situations because of their bosses and not by their own choice and not every mistake should be treated the same. Anyway I've remembered why I just stick to light topics and short answers.

[KevinNU7]

Your anologies to not match this situation. This guy is being paid to ensure that these kids get home safely. If you were being paid to drive coolers of beer to locations you damn well better make sure it is secure

[stkelly52]

There are different types of negligence. When you willfully choose to do something that you know could result in injury or death that is one thing (i.e. drunk driving), when you forget to do something and that causes injury or death (i.e. leaving a child in a car) it is another. They should both be punished, but one is worse than the other because you made a choice to do it in spite of the fact that you knew what could result.

[rkmsuf]

There are different types of negligence. When you willfully choose to do something that you know could result in injury or death that is one thing (i.e. drunk driving), when you forget to do something and that causes injury or death (i.e. leaving a child in a car) it is another. They should both be punished, but one is worse than the other because you made a choice to do it in spite of the fact that you knew what could result.

Forgot? The guy skipped the kids stop to begin with.

[Qwikshot]

In Philly, I read last summer about a grandfather forgetting his grandson in the car. The grandson died...he is on trial right now.

[stkelly52]

Forgot? The guy skipped the kids stop to begin with.

he either forgot, or he did it intentionally. Are you saying that you think that he intentionally left the child in the van? If so then you should be arguing for murder 1.

[rkmsuf]

he either forgot, or he did it intentionally. Are you saying that you think that he intentionally left the child in the van? If so then you should be arguing for murder 1.

first of all he intentially skipped the stop. then he forgot.

i'm not arguing for murder one but it's no less serious than driving drunk.

in both cases neither party has proper use of their faculties.

[stkelly52]

first of all he intentially skipped the stop. then he forgot.

i'm not arguing for murder one but it's no less serious than driving drunk.

in both cases neither party has proper use of their faculties.

He intentinally skipped the stop with the intent to come back later. There is nothing negligent about that choice.

[judicial clerk]

I've had situations where I've all of a sudden remembered something hours later, for no apparent reason and without any relation to what i was doing at the time it came back to me. Never something this serious, of course. But I can imagine that's what happened here.
Welcome to the waking hours of a lawyer.

I do not think that this was a peaceful death for the victim. i remember reading one of these stories where the fuckbrain father left his kids in their car seats while he went hunting for mushrooms in the forest. It was reported that one of the kids (aged 1 and 3 I think) had actually pulled her own hair out.

This was a negligent act and if guilty should be convicted of criminally negligent homicide or some some mansalughter. He shouldn't get the death penalty but he shouldn't walk away from this. He should get some time in jail and an extended period of probation. maybe lifetime probation.

Here is a little personal story just to help get the blood boiling. My wife is a probation/parole officer and supervises numerous clients. One client was on for criminally negligent homicide or vehicular manslaughter or something like that. What happened was she was drunk and she ran over a woman and her daughter who were walking to a bus stop. Both victims died. The woman never expressed any remorse for the crime or the victims and only expressed distress at how her own life had been ruined. She never paid any restitution to the family (this was order by the criminal court and also pursuant to a civil judgment) and her attitude was "fuck that, they will never see a penny of that money, i barely have enough money to get by as it is. i will declare bankruptcy before I pay a penny of that."