Podsednik, Oswalt are All-Stars (i.e. no Jeter)

[Easy Mac]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050706&content_id=1118447&vkey=allstar2005&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

This is like having ice cream without poison.

[Buccaneer]

That means Hoffman is not in? :(

[JeeberD]

Woot, way to go Roy!

Now if only Ensberg can get in as an injury sub I'll be truly happy.

[Karlifornia]

I looked at that N.L. roster, and I didn't see Barry Bonds anywhere on the list. What the hell? Just because he hasn''t played doesn't mean he isn't the best player!!

[Young Drachma]

I looked at that N.L. roster, and I didn't see Barry Bonds anywhere on the list. What the hell? Just because he hasn''t played doesn't mean he isn't the best player!!

lol

[Ksyrup]

I voted for Oswalt and Carl Crawford 20 times.

No Jeter. Ha!

[JeeberD]

I voted for Oswalt and Carl Crawford 20 times.

No Jeter. Ha!

Same here, but I think I voted closer to 50 times... :)

[k0ruptr]

voted for hoffman and pods (WOOHOO!!) about 50 times

[sovereignstar]

This thread sure isn't evidence of an extremely ridiculous system.

[SackAttack]

I think it's more ridiculous that MLB buried the online ballots and pimped the $0.99/ballot phone voting. Yeah, brilliant. Institute a system that requires fans to vote, then charge them for the privilege.

[Ksyrup]

Buried the online ballots? I decided to check it out on a whim and there was a link in the cover story on the front page of mlb.com. I never even heard about phone voting until you mentioned it.

[SackAttack]

I decided to check it out on a whim and there was a link in the cover story on the front page of mlb.com.

That might be the difference. When I went to dodgers.com to check on some injuries, there was a link to a story about the final voting. I clicked on the story link, and it talked about how the process worked and had a link that said something like "Click here to vote now," and when I clicked that, it opened another window that had a ton of info on the phone voting, and a miniscule link labeled "More info" that one could click to cast a web ballot. Incredibly obscure.

mlb.com proper may have had a more reasonable system in place.

[timmynausea]

The thing about the all-star game is that the final results are more or less meaningless. I want to feel like it's life or death stakes. So I guess what I'm saying is that someone's gotta go. Maybe they should secretly infect one of the players with some werewolf virus shit and we have to vote to lynch somebody each night of the all-star break...

[ISiddiqui]

Hunter should have beaten out Podsednik, but it's amusing that Jeter was kept out.

[MrBigglesworth]

Why do people hate Jeter??

[ISiddiqui]

Cause his wildly overrated... mostly because of his media market.

[MrBigglesworth]

Cause his wildly overrated... mostly because of his media market.
If you want to know the value of leadership on a team, look at the Phillies.

[MrBug708]

Jeter wouldnt make the Phils any better or worse

[MrBigglesworth]

Jeter wouldnt make the Phils any better or worse
If you think that, then you either don't know Jeter, don't know the Phillies, or don't know baseball. Even Ed Wade would trade Rollins for Jeter. The Phillies are absolutely lost, there is nobody on the team that steps up, except maybe Chase Utley, but he is basically a rookie.

[MrBug708]

Thats not what yoiu said though. Jeter's so called intangibles won't get the Phils any closer to the plaoyffs then I would.

[Danny]

Jeter has been a good, maybe even great player, but he most certainly is terribly overrated by the media.

[Ksyrup]

I'm glad he didn't make it first because he's a Yankee, second because the two better SS's this year made it before him (Tejada and Young), third because he's got the same OPS as Bill Hall (!), and fourth because I'm generally against automatic selections based on who the player is, not what he's done through July 1. Scott Rolen has no business being there either, but he got voted in, so what can you do?

[Samdari]

If you think that, then you either don't know Jeter, don't know the Phillies, or don't know baseball. Even Ed Wade would trade Rollins for Jeter. The Phillies are absolutely lost, there is nobody on the team that steps up, except maybe Chase Utley, but he is basically a rookie.

You're nuts. Rollins is a better player than Jeter in every way, and 5 years younger. No way they would trade Rollins for Jeter.

[Ksyrup]

Especially if you factor in their salaries. Jeter at $8 million is a good player/leader. Jeter at $19 million is an "only in NY" type of player.

If he's such a great leader, why hasn't he fixed the Yankees yet? He gets credit for the intangibles he brought to their winning teams, where's the criticism now? How much of an effect could he have had before, if he has little effect now? I agree that intangibles are a factor, but most of the time, we seem to find them in hindsight, depending on what's occurred.

[stevew]

If you think that, then you either don't know Jeter, don't know the Phillies, or don't know baseball. Even Ed Wade would trade Rollins for Jeter. The Phillies are absolutely lost, there is nobody on the team that steps up, except maybe Chase Utley, but he is basically a rookie.

The Phillies are definately lacking the character guys. And Rollins is super overrated.

[CentralMassHokie]

I just like it that all the MLB commercials for the ASG prominently featured Jeter. And the team leader, who's so unselfish as to remain at SS while a dramatically superior player plays to his right, won't make the ASG.

Hopefully someone won't make the trip so Francona can add Travis Hafner over Jeter too.

[Ksyrup]

Given the composition of the AL team, it really would make sense to add Jeter if anyone pulls out. He hasn't had a bad year, so it wouldn't be an embarassment for him to be there. I just like the idea that he's not. But with only 1 backup each at 2B, SS, and 3B, and with 2 1B, 4 OF, and a DH on the bench, adding Hafner is probably not a good move, looking at it strictly from a positional standpoint.

[Arles]

BTW, slightly off topic, but how did Shea Hillenbrand make it at DH over Hafner?

Shea - .299/.358/.440 (.790 OPS), 8 HR, 38 RBI
Hafner - .318/.422/.596 (1.018 OPS), 18 HR, 58 RBI

[Ksyrup]

Is he the only Toronto rep? I don't have the team in front of me.

[Ksyrup]

Dola.

Actually, I assume Halladay made it, so that's not the answer.

[Klinglerware]

BTW, slightly off topic, but how did Shea Hillenbrand make it at DH over Hafner?

Shea - .299/.358/.440 (.790 OPS), 8 HR, 38 RBI
Hafner - .318/.422/.596 (1.018 OPS), 18 HR, 58 RBI


Probably because a good chunk of Hafner's production came in the past 3 weeks. It takes awhile for people to notice...

[Ksyrup]

Hafner's biggest day of the past month was July 4th, after the team was chosen. 3 HRs and 6 RBI against the Tigers.

[oykib]

Hafner's biggest day of the past month was July 4th, after the team was chosen. 3 HRs and 6 RBI against the Tigers.

Take that away and he's still vastly superior. I think the answer you're looking for is that even the professional people involved in picking the team don't take it as seriously as they should.

[Arles]

OK, Hafner hit .345 with 8 HR and 29 RBI in June. If most of the All-star votes were made by the players before that, it makes more sense. Still, if you are going to have a vote by the players, why not wait until late June, early July? It's not like the fans where you want to give each fan that attends a shot. There's no reason why ballots could not be handed out in the last week of June to players and collected in the first week of July.

[Ramzavail]

oykib - Shea was hot early, Hafner is hot now, mostly after the team was chosen, thats why. Hafner was hitting .260 with 5-6 HRs in May. It wasn't until June that he started hitting, thats what hurt him. Look at the stats.

Im a Met fans, and I think Jeter is great. I think people outside of NY, who don't see Jeter on a regular-enough basis, misvalue how good he really is. The guy gets a hit in a big spot, 90% of the time. Late in games, he gets on base, men in scoring position, he gets hits....if you don't see him 3-4-5 times a week, you wouldn't know that.

Jeter by far deserves to be in the all-star game and he deserves every penny of his 19 million dollars. He is that good, if you watch him often enough. The reason he can't completely turn around this team, is because one man can't do it all, all of the time. In the Yankees dynasty, Jeter was doing his normal thing but so was Tino and Brosius and Bernie and Sojo and O'Neill. Now, Jeter is doing his normal thing, but nobody else is really stepping up.

[korme]

This thread sure isn't evidence of an extremely ridiculous system.
Touche

[oykib]

Personally, I think that they should count three things.

1. Foremost should be the current year's production.

2. Next, The work that the player has since the last All-Star Break.

3. Star Power - is the All-Star game. It does need a certain amount of star power. I have no problem with Star Power being a tie-breaker in close situations.

[CentralMassHokie]

Jeter by far deserves to be in the all-star game and he deserves every penny of his 19 million dollars. He is that good, if you watch him often enough.

Actually, this year, Jeter is 140th in the AL in hitting with runners on, putting up a robust .212/.341/.348 line.

But, maybe he just does it in clutch situations, like with 2 outs. Nope. 92nd in the AL in 2 out, scoring position: .184/.326/.316.

He does hit well in "close and late" situations - .311/.392/.422. But he's driven in a total of 2 runs in those situations. Maybe he just can't hit with men on base?

Derek Jeter is a good player. He's a good hitter and a sometimes average SS. Let's not make him out to be the second coming. There are better SSs in the AL and they're both going to the All Star Game.

[hhiipp]

I think people outside of NY, who don't see Jeter on a regular-enough basis,

We see him all the time, Sportscenter may as well just change their whole programming agenda to Yanks/RedSox, Lakers, and Danica Patrick. It's leaning that direction anyway.

[Ksyrup]

3. Star Power - is the All-Star game. It does need a certain amount of star power. I have no problem with Star Power being a tie-breaker in close situations.
That's why the fans get to vote for the starters. There are your stars. The bench, filled out by players and managers, should be based on merit. If it's a close call, I understand picking Jeter over Hafner. But otherwise, great year by young guy over decent year by former all-star should win out.

[John Galt]

Player A - .308/.395/.446, 145 TB, 10 HR, 66 R, 35 RBI, 10 SB
Player B - .289/.363/.337, 91 TB, 0 HR, 48 R, 17 RBI, 41 SB
Player C - .268/.301/.393, 138 TB, 7 HR, 52 R, 23 RBI, 19 SB

There is no way Player B is a better than player A this year unless you have the world's biggest SB fetish. 31 extra SB (at an 82% overall success rate) cannot offset 54 less TB's. Player B is not an all-star by any measure. Player A (who is 31 years old) is, of course, Jeter. Player B (who is 29 years old - not really a young player) is Pods. Jeter also plays a harder defensive position (even though I've argued here repeatedly that he doesn't play it very well).

Player C is only slightly more interesting. He is Jimmy Rollins. Setting contracts aside, the only possible justification for preferring Rollins over Jeter is age. Offensively, he is just not in the same ballpark and to say, "Rollins is a better player than Jeter in every way" is lunacy. His OBP is embarassing.

I'm no Jeter fan and regularly bash him, but picking Pods in the all-star balloting over him just doesn't make sense. The Jeter-backlash has gone too far when you can't see he is clearly a superior player having a superior season when compared to Pods.

As for Rollins, he has the age advantage, but Jeter is currently a much better offensive player that surely offsets any defensie margin.

[Ramzavail]

Let's not make him out to be the second coming. There are better SSs in the AL and they're both going to the All Star Game.

Second coming? He's been around for 10+ years....hes came and conquered enough, I think.

Sure I think Young and Tejada belong there....but they've taken up to 5 SS in an allstar game before (2002)....I'm actually surprised SPod made it, his stats are weak.

[Ramzavail]

dola- nice work John Galt, you beat me to it.

[Blackadar]

Player A - .308/.395/.446, 145 TB, 10 HR, 66 R, 35 RBI, 10 SB
Player B - .289/.363/.337, 91 TB, 0 HR, 48 R, 17 RBI, 41 SB
Player C - .268/.301/.393, 138 TB, 7 HR, 52 R, 23 RBI, 19 SB

There is no way Player B is a better than player A this year unless you have the world's biggest SB fetish. 31 extra SB (at an 82% overall success rate) cannot offset 54 less TB's. Player B is not an all-star by any measure. Player A (who is 31 years old) is, of course, Jeter. Player B (who is 29 years old - not really a young player) is Pods. Jeter also plays a harder defensive position (even though I've argued here repeatedly that he doesn't play it very well).

Player C is only slightly more interesting. He is Jimmy Rollins. Setting contracts aside, the only possible justification for preferring Rollins over Jeter is age. Offensively, he is just not in the same ballpark and to say, "Rollins is a better player than Jeter in every way" is lunacy. His OBP is embarassing.

I'm no Jeter fan and regularly bash him, but picking Pods in the all-star balloting over him just doesn't make sense. The Jeter-backlash has gone too far when you can't see he is clearly a superior player having a superior season when compared to Pods.

As for Rollins, he has the age advantage, but Jeter is currently a much better offensive player that surely offsets any defensie margin.

You make a good case for Jeter, but let's consider a couple of other things.

1. Jeter has 55 more ABs than Pod. That accounts for some of the Total Bases stat that you tout.

2. Pod is a much better fielder than Jeter. Both SS and CF are critical defensive positions.

But since this was a vote, you could have easily voted for Tori Hunter, Matsui or even Trot Nixon over either Pod or Jeter.

[John Galt]

BTW, Pods and Rollins both have a .700 OPS which ties them for 135th in the league (out of 166 qualifiers).

[Ramzavail]

even Trot Nixon over either Pod or Jeter.

Trot Nixon, funny one.

At the same time, I don't think you've been watching the White Sox, Podsednik has been playing ALOT of LF, not CF. Good try though.

[John Galt]

You make a good case for Jeter, but let's consider a couple of other things.

1. Jeter has 55 more ABs than Pod. That accounts for some of the Total Bases stat that you tout.

2. Pod is a much better fielder than Jeter. Both SS and CF are critical defensive positions.

But since this was a vote, you could have easily voted for Tori Hunter, Matsui or even Trot Nixon over either Pod or Jeter.

AB's should count for something when the difference is mostly attributable to games played (Pods 71, Jeter 80). And TB's are just one of many differences. Pods is hardly the best fielder and Jeter has improved, but the defensive differences can't offset the enormous offensive ones.

I'm fine with Hunter, Nixon, or Matsui. They are all having better seasons than Jeter. I just find it embarassing that Pods gets the vote when he is having a horrible season. A .700 OPS?!?!?! That's all it takes - this isn't the dead ball era.

edit: looking at NIxon's stats, I'm not sure I would pick him over Jeter, but I could at least understand the argument - with Pods I can't.

[Ksyrup]

There's no reason to argue Jeter over Pods, since Pods was a fan vote. Period.

Whether Jeter deserves to be on the squad is debatable, at best. There are clearly 2 other SS's more deserving. As I said above, the positional imbalance suggests another middle infielder should probably be added, and that would be him. But the fact that he's not on right now is not due to some grave injustice.

Does that change the fact that I'm happy he hasn't made it so far? Hell no.

[John Galt]

There's no reason to argue Jeter over Pods, since Pods was a fan vote. Period.

Huh? Are fan votes immune from criticism or did I miss something?

[Ramzavail]

If Trot Nixon made the all-star as a platoon player, then I'd give up watching baseball.

[Ksyrup]

I'm fine with Hunter, Nixon, or Matsui. They are all having better seasons than Jeter. I just find it embarassing that Pods gets the vote when he is having a horrible season. A .700 OPS?!?!?! That's all it takes - this isn't the dead ball era.
Pods was voted in because of similar intangibles that have allowed people to raise Jeter from above average player to "I can say he's worth $19 million with a straight face." Sure, he doesn't have the post-season pedigree, but he's a team leader, he makes the offense "go," etc. Those aren't sabermetrics. But he's getting a big portion of the credit for how well the White Sox are doing, whether he deserves it or not.

[John Galt]

Pods was voted in because of similar intangibles that have allowed people to raise Jeter from above average player to "I can say he's worth $19 million with a straight face." Sure, he doesn't have the post-season pedigree, but he's a team leader, he makes the offense "go," etc. Those aren't sabermetrics. But he's getting a big portion of the credit for how well the White Sox are doing, whether he deserves it or not.

Since I've criticized everyone here for lauding Jeter's intangibles, I see no problem in criticizing those who laud Pods. IMO, the fans screwed this one up big time.

And did Pods just get these intangibles when he came to the Sox? This sounds like Womack-love to me. Remember when he "got the Arizona offense started?" And now the Yankees are paying for that stupidity.

[Blackadar]

Trot Nixon, funny one.

At the same time, I don't think you've been watching the White Sox, Podsednik has been playing ALOT of LF, not CF. Good try though.

No, I don't watch the White Sox. But I do know that Pod has been playing LF and CF - and when he plays LF, he tends to cover some CF ground as well.

As for Nixon, his stats are right in line with Jeter's.

Personally, I voted for Hunter.

[Ksyrup]

Since I've criticized everyone here for lauding Jeter's intangibles, I see no problem in criticizing those who laud Pods. IMO, the fans screwed this one up big time.

And did Pods just get these intangibles when he came to the Sox? This sounds like Womack-love to me. Remember when he "got the Arizona offense started?" And now the Yankees are paying for that stupidity.I agree with you. I'm kinda making the argument I've heard; it's not my argument. I'd love the guy's SBs and intangibles if his OPS was .850-.900, maybe. Then again, intangibles like team leadership don't necessarily make the team win, but they help keep a clubhouse together. I guess the response to your question could be, "he made the Brewers much better as a team than they would have been otherwise."

Does someone have to be a winner in order to positively affect their team? Would Jeter have been less of a class act/team leader if he had been dealt to the Pirates in 1995, or would he have made the Pirates instant winners? I suspect neither of those would have been the case, but that wouldn't diminish his affect on teammates and in the clubhouse in general.

We can't prove or disprove any of this, which is what makes it more fun to discuss.

[John Galt]

One more tidbit I forgot to mention - Pods has only played 4 games in CF this year.

[sovereignstar]

Personally, I voted for Hunter.
ding ding ding - winner!

Everyone else if f'ing wrong. You vote for Hunter because he's god damn fun to watch.

[John Galt]

And I really need to get back to work, but Jeter is actually fairing quite well in defensive measures this year. He is 2nd in the AL in Range Factor (behind only Lugo). Strangely, Young is last in the AL for qualifiers. Jeter is 5th in zone rating, but is ahead of the 2 all-stars. He isn't great, but maybe his defensive progress from last year is sticking a little (and not a total fluke like I had thought).

As for Pods, he is 3rd in Range Factor, and fourth in zone rating. In other words, compared to his peers, he isn't really much different than Jeter (with the usual caveats about sample sizes and defensive metrics). And given he plays LF most of the time, Jeter's time at SS is worth way more.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

If you have a problem with Podsednik then you should have voted for 48 straight hours like every other White Sox fan did .

That's how he got in.

White Sox fans.

We are around.

Sort of.

[John Galt]

If you have a problem with Podsednik then you should have voted for 48 straight hours like every other White Sox fan did .

That's how he got in.

White Sox fans.

We are around.

Sort of.

Interesting claim given your screen name.

[Ksyrup]

The rest are laying around. Drunk.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Interesting claim given your screen name.

And you no longer like Ayn Rand.

Times change.

[sterlingice]

The thing that made me most sad about the voting process for the 32nd man is that the NL had so many better players out there that any of the 5 you could have voted for as well as Morgan Ensberg were better than all of the 5 guys up for the vote in the AL.

SI

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

That is because the NL needed a 12th pitcher.

Blame Tony La Russa for not taking enough pitchers.

[John Galt]

And you no longer like Ayn Rand.

Times change.

Well played. I got nuthin.

[Ramzavail]

No, I don't watch the White Sox. But I do know that Pod has been playing LF and CF - and when he plays LF, he tends to cover some CF ground as well.

As for Nixon, his stats are right in line with Jeter's.

Personally, I voted for Hunter.

You dont watch them, but you know when he plays LF he tends to cover some CF as well? Interesting logic.

Trot Nixon's numbers are no where near Derek Jeter's. Trot Nixon doesn't play when theres a LHP on the mound. I.E. platoon player. When you are a healthy OF and you don't play 20% of your teams games, you shouldn't be considered for the all-star game with sub .290 AVG 9 HRs and 40RBIs.

[timmae]

Player A - .308/.395/.446, 145 TB, 10 HR, 66 R, 35 RBI, 10 SB
Player B - .289/.363/.337, 91 TB, 0 HR, 48 R, 17 RBI, 41 SB
Player C - .268/.301/.393, 138 TB, 7 HR, 52 R, 23 RBI, 19 SB

There is no way Player B is a better than player A this year unless you have the world's biggest SB fetish. 31 extra SB (at an 82% overall success rate) cannot offset 54 less TB's. Player B is not an all-star by any measure. Player A (who is 31 years old) is, of course, Jeter. Player B (who is 29 years old - not really a young player) is Pods. Jeter also plays a harder defensive position (even though I've argued here repeatedly that he doesn't play it very well).

Player C is only slightly more interesting. He is Jimmy Rollins. Setting contracts aside, the only possible justification for preferring Rollins over Jeter is age. Offensively, he is just not in the same ballpark and to say, "Rollins is a better player than Jeter in every way" is lunacy. His OBP is embarassing.

I'm no Jeter fan and regularly bash him, but picking Pods in the all-star balloting over him just doesn't make sense. The Jeter-backlash has gone too far when you can't see he is clearly a superior player having a superior season when compared to Pods.

As for Rollins, he has the age advantage, but Jeter is currently a much better offensive player that surely offsets any defensie margin.

Great logic if you are playing a text based sim...

Pods sets the table for the Sox. Would Iguchi play as well without Podsednik? Would the team have won as many games? We can't possible know the answer but the fact that the Sox are more than 30 games over .500 at the midway point of the season is an indicator that something drastic has changed since last year. Ozzie? Maybe... Frank, nope. I'd bet Scotty has a little bit to do with it. Of course some great pitching always helps. Ummm... reminds me, small ball Ozzie style. Could it be that Scotty was the main ingredient that the team needed? Who knows... I just enjoy watching him play.

[Buccaneer]

With all of this talk about the AL and its players, this thread sure went into the crapper. :(

[MrBigglesworth]

You're nuts. Rollins is a better player than Jeter in every way, and 5 years younger. No way they would trade Rollins for Jeter.
Please tell me that you are joking. Jeter is a better hitter in every way (better avg, better power, better obp, better slugging, etc), is a better lead-off hitter, and only slightly worse defensively.

[Ksyrup]

Funny thing is Rollins is on the All-Star team; Jeter's not (so far, anyway).

[sterlingice]

Funny thing is Rollins is on the All-Star team; Jeter's not (so far, anyway).
Still, that's only a 3 month sample. I'd still rather have Jeter than Rollins and I'm right there on the Jeter is overrated bandwagon. That said, if we take contracts into account, Rollins in a landslide- unless you're a team that can afford to grossly overpay players.

SI

[Ksyrup]

Oh, I know. I just find it funny.