2005-06 Soccer Thread

[daedalus]

To my understanding, he could have waited a breath to see how the play ended to let the offense play their advantage (open goal and all) and still come back and book Lehmann with either cards. It would have been the correct call one way or the other. Red carding Lehmann was one of the few calls he got right.

Besides Eboue's dive, Cole also had a free kick around midfield where Van Bommel didn't actually touch him. Toure, I think, deserved a yellow for one of his challenges around midway through the first. Henry's yellow was completely asstarded. It was COMPLETELY clean, he didn't touch the guy at all. In fact, he ended up being kicked on the follow through.

On the other hand, Marquez should have gotten a yellow when he scythed down Henry. So did Oleguer when he pulled down Ljungberg when he would have been through. And a number of other times when he just pushed people down.

It didn't really feel like he was favouring Barça as much as he just wasn't ready for a game of this scope. How I miss the bald headed dude.

[daedalus]

The part that saddened me, as a football fan, was we missed the chance at a great game. We saw glimpses of it toward the beginning of the match. Instead, Arsenal bunkered down as they did in the 2nd Villarreal game. As an aside, I sort of felt the loss coming as soon as we bunkered down. We're just no good at it nor do we have the personnel for it. Villarreal would have been through, given how we played the 2nd game, if their finishing had not failed them.

The part that saddened me, as an Arsenal fan, was that Barça was beatable this game. Ronaldinho was NOT the Ronaldinho that (deservedly) won 2 Player of the Year. Puyol was not the rock he usually is (in the few times I've seen him I've never seen him skinned like Henry did him and he had a slip and slide to let Cesc go by him). I thought Rijkaard missed it and we had a good chance to take them when he started Oleguer instead of Belleti and Van Bommel instead of Iniesta. I think he out-maneuvered Wenger, though, with his use of substitutions (Wenger has always been horrible with that). Iniesta was dangerous when he came on. Larsson, well, changed the match when he came on. Belleti gave them the threat on the right side that they lacked. I agreed with Henry (for a change) - who Smythe kept saying that he had an ongoing "dialogue" with his manager - that Wenger should have replaced Hleb with Reyes from around the hour mark on. Hleb's tank seemed to have been on 'E' well before he came out.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm bored, so let's talk about the World Cup. We've talked at length about England's squad (with Walcott, et all), so if anyone cares (and I doubt anyone does ;)), I'll talk about the US. :D

Interesting lineup and kind of like the English there are too many good MF and not enough forwards, though not as a result of injury and questionable picks (though leaving on Twellman may be seen by some as questionable).

The key is Donovan. He has played forward with McBride and attacking center MF (his best position, IMO). The problem with him at AMC is who will play the second forward spot? Eddie Johnson is still recovering from injury and hasn't had the same explosiveness since he got hurt, but maybe Arena will get the best out of him as he has in the past. Wolff has done nothing special in qualifying and neither has Ching, though he is tearing it up in MLS, which doesn't necessarily mean anything.

So, if only McBride is ok, a 4-5-1 may make sense, but Arena does perfer a 4-4-2. So I thought about Donovan's role and realized that perhaps a kind of 'tweener' formation could be used, depending on where Donovan is at on the field (he'd be given a free role, of course).

So, I was thinking (Keller is in goal, obviously):

---------McBride
--------------------Donovan
---Beasley---------------------Dempsey
-----------Mastroeni---Reyna
--Lewis---Onyewu---Gibbs---Cherundolo

Convey can replace Beasley at a moment's notice. Bocanegra can spell Gibbs or even Lewis if need be. And if O'Brien is healthy (HA!), he can take over Dempsey's spot.

The alternative is:

--------McBride-----Johnson/Wolff
---------------Donovan
----Beasley----------------Dempsey
----------------Reyna
--Lewis--Onyewu--Gibbs--Cherundolo

If more defense is needed, Reyna takes over for Dempsey on the right wing and Masteroeni plays defensive mid.

The offense will go through Donovan in both formations and Beasley will have to be responsible for providing a spark as well (if he can't, Convey has proven himself able). The defense is led by Onweyu, who is the best center back the US has ever produced (may be damning with faint praise, but Eddie Pope was pretty decent). Masteroni may be needed during the Italy game, and may require Reyna to play on the right (in a strict 4-4-2 diamond), but Dempsey should show in the other matches.

[SirFozzie]

I will probably set up a new thread when the WC starts :)

[ISiddiqui]

NO! This thread must at least go to 1000 posts, dammit! Though I'd prefer the goal to take down the NHL thread (which will get 1000 before the Cup is handed out)!

[TazFTW]

Any interest in having an FOFC Yahoo Fantasy World Cup private group?

The game is here, http://en.fifaworldcup.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ff

You select 23 players (max. 3 per country) and then you name a starting 11 using either a 442, 352, 343, or 433 each match day.

Scoring is

Attacking Stats
<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Goal(G)</TD><TD>5 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Penalty Goal(PKG)</TD><TD>5 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Assist(AST)</TD><TD>3 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Shot on Goal(SOG)</TD><TD>3 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Penalty Kick Missed(PKM)</TD><TD>-5 points</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Defending Stats
<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Tackles Committed(TKC) </TD><TD>1 point</TD></TR><TR><TD>Foul Committed(FC) </TD><TD>-0.5 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Yellow Card(YC) </TD><TD>-3 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Red Card(RC) </TD><TD>-6 points</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Goal Keeper Specific
<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Save(SAV) </TD><TD>2 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Penalty Kick Save(PKS) </TD><TD>8 points</TD></TR><TR><TD>Goal Allowed(GA) </TD><TD>-3 points</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Special
<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>McDonald's Team Captain </TD></TR><TR><TD>2x points per matchday</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I believe they will also let you select a new 23 man roster after the group stage.

[Desnudo]

Finally got around to watching the match. I was cheering for Arsenal at the start as my heart is for the English teams, but after Eboue's dive and subsequent goal, I lost my taste for the game. Too bad, it could have been good if Lehmann hadn't grabbed Eto's foot.

Everyone in England got to miss the wonderful defense of Eboue's dive by Marcelo Balboa on ESPN. Later on he gets on Deco for diving. Great role model for the kids.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, in defense of Balboa, he said if you are Eboue, you have to fall in that situation (and I think a lot of fans would applaud it for their team). For Deco, he was blaming the refs for not calling dives.

Different situations there. Saying if you are a player, you have to try, but the refs have to be on the lookout.

[MIJB#19]

Let's get the FIFA World Cup conspiracy theories started. Alf pointed out to me yesterday that the official website of the tournament showed Germany-England as a lock for one of the second round matches. Sadly they fixed it now (not until after I saw it), but it sure was hilarious to see the people of the website think Germany will win the group and England will finish second in theirs. :D

[condors]

i think Eddie Pope will be starting if healthy while he may not be the best option but i think the Bruce trusts him. I am not very confindent of the US making it past the first stage though.

[daedalus]

So, I was thinking (Keller is in goal, obviously):

---------McBride
--------------------Donovan
---Beasley---------------------Dempsey
-----------Mastroeni---Reyna
--Lewis---Onyewu---Gibbs---CherundoloI was flipping past Fox Sports Espanol and they had a reporter asking him about his lineup. The one he drew on his paper was similar to what you have, down to Donovan being the withdrawn striker -- he wrote on his note as "F/M", actually. He had Pope over Gibbs, though. He said he was unsure of the second midfield position opposite Reyna and one of the wing, but he mentioned Mastroeni and O'Brien as candidates for the midfield slot and Dempsey as the possible (likely?) winger.

For some reason, I was under the impression that Lewis was hurt but perhaps I am thinking of someone else. Who else may have been a left-back for the US that is currently on the shelf?

I think it's unfortunately (for the USNT and, in a way, for himself) that Rossi is so set on playing for Italy. He would have made an interesting candidate for a partner for McBride (with Donovan in the hole behind them). I have a tough time seeing him getting in there while playing for United. It's a crowded field anyway and he's playing outside Italy, which seems to be a big boo-boo for them.

Segway . . . what do y'all think of the US' chance of surprising Italy and making it out of group stage? Even before the big controversy, I had sort of an outside hope that they could/would sneak some points against Italy and Czech and Italy would get surprised (a la France). Especially with Totti out and Cassano really not seeming to be in form.

[MIJB#19]

Just my European biased opinion (sic), but I think Italy and the Czech Republic are both strong enough in depth to be seen as two of the top three European teams, and thus potential semifinalists. The more I look at it, I think the USA have been screwed by the FIFA for not getting a higher seeded spot for the group phase. I'm not claiming this based on that wacky FIFA Ranking, but based on the 2002 performance. With Turkey and Senegal not there, it was pretty easy to seed the six remaining quarterfinalists (Bra, Ger, Kor, USA, Esp, Eng), and then add France and Croatia. Mexico, Argentina and Italy did not do enough in 1998 and 2002 to deserve a top seeded position. Granted, you have to be able to survive the group phase to be a deserved finalist, but when you can get the USA, Italy and the Czechs in one group, you're doing something wrong.

I stick with the thought that having the MLS start in the spring wil help against the other teams, especially Italy. Secretly I've already written it down as a 1-0 win for the USA. But then I see the names of Gibbs and O'Brien mentioned in the potential lineup; all I can do is shake my head and fear for a short stay in Germany for Team USA.

[MIJB#19]

For those looking for a spreadsheet to toy with your predictions, I've created one and placed on my website http://football.netherlands.com/index_en.html. I also have a polite request to those who think I'm a Eurosnob, please keep your mouse cursor off my main work and download the Eurosnob version. That one is special made for you.

[Butter]

He had Pope over Gibbs, though

:rolleyes:

Segway . . . what do y'all think of the US' chance of surprising Italy and making it out of group stage? Even before the big controversy, I had sort of an outside hope that they could/would sneak some points against Italy and Czech and Italy would get surprised (a la France). Especially with Totti out and Cassano really not seeming to be in form.

The US will advance from this group. As a US fan, I really can't think any other way. They'll find a way to beat Italy, and that should be enough to see them through.

[ice4277]

I think the U.S. can advance out of the group, but I wouldn't want to put money on it. Italy always looks beatable at times during a major final, and the Czechs can be a streaky squad as well. If the U.S. catches either team at an 'off' moment, we definitely have enough to take one of the qualifying spots.

And look forward to Brazil in the second round! Yay!

[Butter]

I really think the USA can win the group, and avoid Brazil in the 2nd round.

[moriarty]

I think the U.S. can advance out of the group, but I wouldn't want to put money on it. Italy always looks beatable at times during a major final, and the Czechs can be a streaky squad as well. If the U.S. catches either team at an 'off' moment, we definitely have enough to take one of the qualifying spots.

And look forward to Brazil in the second round! Yay!

I think the Czechs are the beatable team between them and Italy, but I'm not feeling real confident at the moment. Throw in there that Ghana (despite playing poorly in the African Nations Cup) still has Essien who is better than any US player ... and I'm wondering if we're not looking at two draws and one loss. I'm hoping for the best though.

Oh, and Donovan has to play up front unless EJ makes a miraculous comeback.

[Critch]

Everyone in England got to miss the wonderful defense of Eboue's dive by Marcelo Balboa on ESPN. Later on he gets on Deco for diving. Great role model for the kids.

So that's who that was. He made Tommy Smyth seem worth listening too. That's a tough thing to do.

[AlexB]

I really think the USA can win the group, and avoid Brazil in the 2nd round.

I too think the US can avoid Brazil in the 2nd round, maybe for a different reason ;)

Seriously, the group is tough - everybody can take points off everybody else: to a certain extent it's better to have three other good sides in your group than just two other good ones, as the chances are the points total required to advance will be less.

That said, I do think winning the group is maybe an unrealistic expectation, but qualification in 2nd is far from out the question.

[ISiddiqui]

For some reason, I was under the impression that Lewis was hurt but perhaps I am thinking of someone else. Who else may have been a left-back for the US that is currently on the shelf?

You thinking of Hejduk? He tore some ligaments recently, IIRC.

Segway . . . what do y'all think of the US' chance of surprising Italy and making it out of group stage? Even before the big controversy, I had sort of an outside hope that they could/would sneak some points against Italy and Czech and Italy would get surprised (a la France). Especially with Totti out and Cassano really not seeming to be in form.

It is going to be tough. There definately is a chance, but it won't be easy and may require some luck. Italy is the interesting case as we have to see how Onyewu handles Toni (though, of course, the best way to stop Toni is to prevent the ball from getting to him in the first place). I really think this groups can go in a myriad of different ways.

[Butter]

That said, I do think winning the group is maybe an unrealistic expectation...

But then, that's my specialty. I am fired up for this WC like no other. I just think that one of these times the US is going to break through and make it a LONG way. Why not this year?

[condors]

But then, that's my specialty. I am fired up for this WC like no other. I just think that one of these times the US is going to break through and make it a LONG way. Why not this year?

like in 2002 :confused:

[Crapshoot]

I really think the USA can win the group, and avoid Brazil in the 2nd round.

That kool-aid tastes good eh ? The US is at best the 3rd best team in the group, and may well be the worst - they don't have anyone of the quality of Essien, Appiah, and Kuffor - though they clearly have more depth than the Ghanian's. It really is a brutal group.

[TroyF]

Henry announced he's staying at Arsenal. They needed that one.

[Butter]

The US is at best the 3rd best team in the group...

At best? Who's drinking the Kool-Aid now?

[ISiddiqui]

I appreciate the nationalism, Butter, but Crapshoot is correct. The US, talent wise, is at best the 3rd best team in the group. Now maybe the US will come up with a great gameplan, but you can't make a case that Italy or the Czech Republic has less talent than the US squad.

[Crapshoot]

At best? Who's drinking the Kool-Aid now?

Yes, at best - the Ghanian's have more top level talent, but not the same depth. Are you seriously suggesting the US has the talent of Italy or the Czechs ?

[daedalus]

He had Pope over Gibbs, though:rolleyes:Excuse me?

[MIJB#19]

You got to see that all over the world, optimism is at an all time high. You need to tone done all expectations and then after that figure out who the two-four surprises of the tournament will be.

Wannabe champs: Brazil, Italy, Argentina, Spain
Wannabe semifinalists: France, Germany, Netherlands, England
Wannabe quarterfinalists: Czech Rep, Korea, USA, Mexico, Portugal, Croatia, Serbia Montenegro
Wannabe second rounders: Tunisia, Poland, Paraguay, Sweden, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Australia, Japan, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Switzerland, Ukraine, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Angola, Togo
Yah, man, it be already kool to be partin' at Germany, man: Trinidad & Tobago

So, the likely performances will be:
World Champ: Brazil
Runners-Up: Argentina
semifinalists: Italy, Spain
quarterfinalists: France, Germany, Netherlands, England
Second rounders: Czech Rep/USA, Korea, Mexico, Portugal, Croatia, Costa Rica, Ukraine/Tunisia, Trinidad & Tobago (surprise!)
Coach to be fired soon: Tunisia/Ukraine, Poland, Paraguay, Sweden, Ecuador, Australia, Japan, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Switzerland, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Angola, Togo, Serbia Montenegro, USA/Czech Rep

[ISiddiqui]

Excuse me?

Pope is fairly old and more like 'veteran leadership' compared to players like Gibbs and Bocanegra. I think Butter was rolling his eyes at Pope starting. Though you never know what Arena will do.

[Butter]

Pope is fairly old and more like 'veteran leadership' compared to players like Gibbs and Bocanegra. I think Butter was rolling his eyes at Pope starting.

That was it. I think Pope's about done. The longer he's out there, the better a chance that he'll be beaten like a rented mule.

[daedalus]

Everyone in England got to miss the wonderful defense of Eboue's dive by Marcelo Balboa on ESPN. Later on he gets on Deco for diving. Great role model for the kids.So that's who that was. He made Tommy Smyth seem worth listening too. That's a tough thing to do.I had serious "WTF?!?" moments when he said Eboue did what he had to do and Deco should have been carded. One poster on the BigSoccer Arsenal board had an interesting take on his comments. He felt that Balboa was referring to the fact that Eboue, as a defender (ie, not as proficient in attack as a general attacker), tried to do what he felt he had to do for his team (in this case, to get a free kick) -- not justifying the right or wrong of the action -- whereas he was referring to the referee failure to call the play correctly on Deco's dive. I am still . . . iffy on that. But I can sort of feel where he (the poster) is coming from.

[MikeVick7]

I had serious "WTF?!?" moments when he said Eboue did what he had to do and Deco should have been carded. One poster on the BigSoccer Arsenal board had an interesting take on his comments. He felt that Balboa was referring to the fact that Eboue, as a defender (ie, not as proficient in attack as a general attacker), tried to do what he felt he had to do for his team (in this case, to get a free kick) -- not justifying the right or wrong of the action -- whereas he was referring to the referee failure to call the play correctly on Deco's dive. I am still . . . iffy on that. But I can sort of feel where he (the poster) is coming from.
I took that the same way when I heard it.

[daedalus]

You thinking of Hejduk? He tore some ligaments recently, IIRC.That's the one. Good call. Does this put Bocanegra as the backup to Lewis?It is going to be tough. There definately is a chance, but it won't be easy and may require some luck. Italy is the interesting case as we have to see how Onyewu handles Toni (though, of course, the best way to stop Toni is to prevent the ball from getting to him in the first place). I really think this groups can go in a myriad of different ways.No doubt. I would not expect easy as the 3rd seed in such a group and agree that luck is going to be a necessity. But, I mean, stranger things have happened than a solid team -- I think it's fair to consider the US to be solid -- have a good bounce or two and get a favourable result.

[ISiddiqui]

That's the one. Good call. Does this put Bocanegra as the backup to Lewis?

I assume that it does. Though Bocanegra is far better at a central defender. Albright was Hejduk's replacement and the less time we see of Albright the better, IMO.

No doubt. I would not expect easy as the 3rd seed in such a group and agree that luck is going to be a necessity. But, I mean, stranger things have happened than a solid team -- I think it's fair to consider the US to be solid -- have a good bounce or two and get a favourable result.

We have gotten lucky before (most notably in the Columbia match in USA '94). We're going to need to get that again, most definately. I'm not sure 4 points will get us through.. it may, but I'm not going to bet on it.

[ice4277]

We have gotten lucky before (most notably in the Columbia match in USA '94). We're going to need to get that again, most definately. I'm not sure 4 points will get us through.. it may, but I'm not going to bet on it.

I think there is going to be little difference in the point totals between the group participants. Our best hope would seem to be to beat Ghana (not a given by any means) and sneak a win vs. either Italy or the Czechs. More likely though, I see us finishing with about 4 points, like you do. A draw between the Italians and the Czechs seems pretty important for our chances to progess IMO.

[moriarty]

. More likely though, I see us finishing with about 4 points, like you do. A draw between the Italians and the Czechs seems pretty important for our chances to progess IMO.

If we have 4 points, and Italy and Czech draw (and both beat Ghana).

That means one team has 6 points (beat us), the other 5 points (tied us) and the US 4 points (right?). Not sure how the Italy/Czech tie does us any good.

[ice4277]

If we have 4 points, and Italy and Czech draw (and both beat Ghana).

That means one team has 6 points (beat us), the other 5 points (tied us) and the US 4 points (right?). Not sure how the Italy/Czech tie does us any good.

Meh, you're probably right. Yet another reason why I was not a math major in college :D

[ice4277]

dola

Its useful to remember also that in '94, the US actually finished 3rd in its group, but went through as one of the two(?) best third-placed squads. Its only the top two getting through now.

[Desnudo]

Well, in defense of Balboa, he said if you are Eboue, you have to fall in that situation (and I think a lot of fans would applaud it for their team). For Deco, he was blaming the refs for not calling dives.

Different situations there. Saying if you are a player, you have to try, but the refs have to be on the lookout.

I remember as being more of a "good job, you're down ten men,' speech. I realize the point he was trying to make, but I don't buy it and I find it weak he'd try and make it in the first place. I don't think real fans of soccer would ever applaud that kind of behaviour. It's never acceptable if you believe in sportsmanship at all. I don't think you'd see Henry going down like a lump just because hist team was down a man.

[Desnudo]

So that's who that was. He made Tommy Smyth seem worth listening too. That's a tough thing to do.

You're in luck, he's the lead analyst for the WC.

[Critch]

You're in luck, he's the lead analyst for the WC.

Setanta has the tournament with German commentary. I'll stick to that.

Can't speak German, but it'll make more sense than Tommy Smyth's witterings.

[AlexB]

Love the fact that Drogba wants to leave Chelsea and England: since he was called on his perpetual cheating, he has been unhappy - aaahhhh, poor diddums.

From SkyText:

'Drogba claims he is unhappy at being labelled a cheat and has hinted he wants a move...

Drogba said "It is not a joke. I want to move on and avoid all the pressures and the scandals.

Those things hurt my feelings. I want a place I can play freely and without drawbacks. You should know what a player endures with so much pressure" '

So basically he wants to be able to fall over, roll around, feign injury and not be called on it. The guy is an arrogant twat, and unfortuantely for him more and more people are realising this.

Mourinho made me laugh in his press conference:

'Didier has two more years on his contract and he is one of the players I consider not neogtiable - he has no possibility to leave.

If he plays with happiness, that is good for Chelsea. If he does not play with happiness... he does not play' :D

[Critch]

So basically he wants to be able to fall over, roll around, feign injury and not be called on it.

Italy or Spain, then?

[AlexB]

Italy or Spain, then?

:D

[Desnudo]

Maybe they can send him to Corinthians for Tevez.

[tanglewood]

Gallas and Drogba now unhappy and wanting to leave. Is the Chelsea team starting to break-up simply due to having too many good players who feel they should start, just as many predicted?

[Katon]

Love the fact that Drogba wants to leave Chelsea and England: since he was called on his perpetual cheating, he has been unhappy - aaahhhh, poor diddums.

So basically he wants to be able to fall over, roll around, feign injury and not be called on it. The guy is an arrogant twat, and unfortuantely for him more and more people are realising this.


To be fair, he does get a disproportionate amount of stick for it - I could point to a number of other players who've pulled stunts every bit as embarassing as his worst dives and are generally regarded as epitomising the proper spirit of football. He's also been having a worse time because of a linguistic fuckup that had more to do with English being his second language than anything about his general honesty.

The obvious response to that is that he still dives more than most people, and if he doesn't want to get called on it he should just stop cheating. But by all accounts he actually did that over the last month or so of the season. Apparantly (this is going off reports on a Chelsea forum I visit regularly; I don't get live games at college and this isn't the sort of thing that shows up in highlights) he stopped rolling around and started playing proper football in the last month or so of the season.

Of course, just because he's got a point doesn't mean he isn't being a whinging twat. After the support Jose gave him over the whole mistranslation mess, I've not got much sympathy for him wanting to jump ship.

[Katon]

Gallas and Drogba now unhappy and wanting to leave. Is the Chelsea team starting to break-up simply due to having too many good players who feel they should start, just as many predicted?

No. The Drogba situation has nothing to do with playing time, so you're basically looking at one starter. That's hardly a breakup. We'll miss Gallas a great deal, but a back line of Ferreira/Terry/Carvalho/Del Horno (or Bridge) is still probably the best in the league, and with our offense improving the team should hopefully be just as good next year.

Anyway, perhaps we should wait and see who leaves and who comes into replace them before declaring the team dead in the water?

[AlexB]

To be fair, he does get a disproportionate amount of stick for it - I could point to a number of other players who've pulled stunts every bit as embarassing as his worst dives and are generally regarded as epitomising the proper spirit of football. He's also been having a worse time because of a linguistic fuckup that had more to do with English being his second language than anything about his general honesty.

The obvious response to that is that he still dives more than most people, and if he doesn't want to get called on it he should just stop cheating. But by all accounts he actually did that over the last month or so of the season. Apparantly (this is going off reports on a Chelsea forum I visit regularly; I don't get live games at college and this isn't the sort of thing that shows up in highlights) he stopped rolling around and started playing proper football in the last month or so of the season.

Of course, just because he's got a point doesn't mean he isn't being a whinging twat. After the support Jose gave him over the whole mistranslation mess, I've not got much sympathy for him wanting to jump ship.

I have to say this is the most objective post from a Chelsea fan I have ever seen - I find no fault in it whatsoever. Other than the fact that the people that dive more than Drogba are Robben, Joe Cole.... ;)

[ISiddiqui]

I remember as being more of a "good job, you're down ten men,' speech. I realize the point he was trying to make, but I don't buy it and I find it weak he'd try and make it in the first place. I don't think real fans of soccer would ever applaud that kind of behaviour. It's never acceptable if you believe in sportsmanship at all. I don't think you'd see Henry going down like a lump just because hist team was down a man.

Hey, look at American sports fans. It doesn't matter if you pitcher tried to vaseline up the ball, or corked his bat. It's amusing and then move on. We shrug our shoulders at 'unsportsmanlike conduct' all the time, as long as he was trying to help his team.

[RPI-Fan]

I stick with the thought that having the MLS start in the spring wil help against the other teams, especially Italy. Secretly I've already written it down as a 1-0 win for the USA. But then I see the names of Gibbs and O'Brien mentioned in the potential lineup; all I can do is shake my head and fear for a short stay in Germany for Team USA.


You don't understand The Bruce. He's capable of taking out-of-form players and getting the best 4 weeks of their career out of them. He's done it time and time again. Not just the World Cup -- in the Gold Cup he got Brad Davis to look amazing. He harnessed the best month of Friedel's career at just the right time. Likewise with O'Brien. He turned Chris Albright from an MLS reserve forward to a World Cup player.

Bruce <i>will</i> get the most out of his players. Whether that's good enough, who knows. But if O'Brien and Gibbs are playing, there's a damn good reason.

As far as the USA being "at best" 3rd in the group... Crapshoot simply doesn't seem to understand our concept.

We don't want to have multimillion dollar players. We want to have a group that can see any 11 players gel as a team more than any other squad in the World Cup. And with The Bruce we will do that. In the '80's and early '90's our talent and coaching was so poor that this wouldn't work. Now that we have just a little talent, and one of if not the best national team coach in the world, our system makes us more than competitive.

This isn't club football. It's not about having the most talent. We don't have it now, and we never will have it. We won't ever be in the top 10 in the world in terms of individual talent. But given our ability to play a team game we will continue to be successful in World Cups. I'm hesitant about this year given our tough draw, but suggesting that because we don't have players with as much $$ value as other countries makes us inferier is laughable.

[MIJB#19]

You don't understand The Bruce. He's capable of taking out-of-form players and getting the best 4 weeks of their career out of them. He's done it time and time again. Not just the World Cup -- in the Gold Cup he got Brad Davis to look amazing. He harnessed the best month of Friedel's career at just the right time. Likewise with O'Brien. He turned Chris Albright from an MLS reserve forward to a World Cup player.

Bruce <i>will</i> get the most out of his players. Whether that's good enough, who knows. But if O'Brien and Gibbs are playing, there's a damn good reason.

As far as the USA being "at best" 3rd in the group... Crapshoot simply doesn't seem to understand our concept.

We don't want to have multimillion dollar players. We want to have a group that can see any 11 players gel as a team more than any other squad in the World Cup. And with The Bruce we will do that. In the '80's and early '90's our talent and coaching was so poor that this wouldn't work. Now that we have just a little talent, and one of if not the best national team coach in the world, our system makes us more than competitive.

This isn't club football. It's not about having the most talent. We don't have it now, and we never will have it. We won't ever be in the top 10 in the world in terms of individual talent. But given our ability to play a team game we will continue to be successful in World Cups. I'm hesitant about this year given our tough draw, but suggesting that because we don't have players with as much $$ value as other countries makes us inferier is laughable.If I didn't know you better, it'd applaud your brilliant sarcasm.

Where have you been the past 15 months? O'Brien and Gibbs have gone from injury to injury to injury. If your best coach in the world can magically turn an oft injured player into one who can peak at the right time, I'll applaud that, but I have to see it before I'll believe it. They combine for less than 10 league and cup games in that time span.

Your $$ argument is just plain silly. This is the biggest moment in all these players' careers. If you can make it to this level, you've proven to be wanting to be the best in the world and don't care about hardly being paid for a six week tournament. And thinking that 'The Bruce' is unique in picking players for more than just talent only shows you haven't done your research well. That's not how it has worked in the past and definately not how it works today.

I truely hope 'your team' won't show this kind of disrespect to their opponents, or else they'll be eaten alive, returning home after three big defeats. The way you're setting high expectations, this summer can only be a big disappointment for you.

[RPI-Fan]

If I didn't know you better, it'd applaud your brilliant sarcasm.

Where have you been the past 15 months? O'Brien and Gibbs have gone from injury to injury to injury. If your best coach in the world can magically turn an oft injured player into one who can peak at the right time, I'll applaud that, but I have to see it before I'll believe it. They combine for less than 10 league and cup games in that time span.

Your $$ argument is just plain silly. This is the biggest moment in all these players' careers. If you can make it to this level, you've proven to be wanting to be the best in the world and don't care about hardly being paid for a six week tournament. And thinking that 'The Bruce' is unique in picking players for more than just talent only shows you haven't done your research well. That's not how it has worked in the past and definately not how it works today.

I truely hope 'your team' won't show this kind of disrespect to their opponents, or else they'll be eaten alive, returning home after three big defeats. The way you're setting high expectations, this summer can only be a big disappointment for you.

Apparantly you didn't read my post totally right (possibly my fault given that I rushed through typing it, which may have led to some grammar errors).

I am saying that a somewhat fair, if not crude, way of measuring a national team's talent is the dollar value of their individual players. If you put them all for sale on the transfer market, what would they fetch? The US might not even fetch what Essien alone would. Italy would get perhaps 10-20 times more than the USA.

With that said, the reason the USA has had undeniable success is because we play more like a team than other nations with few, though notable, exceptions (South Korea springs to mind).


O'Brien had huge injury problems prior to the last World Cup (granted, not nearly as bad as he has from 2002-2006), and put together, by far, the best three weeks of his life. I don't know how The Bruce did it last time, but I'll put my faith in him that he can do it again. O'Brien is the most talented American soccer player ever -- if he is 100% healthy ('game fit' not required), he MUST be on the field.

Gibbs is coming off pretty much the only injury of his career. He played extraordinarily well in a handful of games at the end of the Dutch season. He has been able to gain full favor with The Bruce with recent friendlies and US training camps. He's preparing for a move to the Premier League and will look to break immediately into the starting lineup. He is young and extremely athletic -- if there's a player that recent injuries shouldn't hamper, it's Gibbs.

[ISiddiqui]

As far as the USA being "at best" 3rd in the group...

He said the US was at best the 3rd best team in the group. In that statement he didn't indicate that he thought the US would not finish in the 2nd spot (though he may find it unlikely). He even later indicated he was speaking about talent (and while a 'team' concept can do wonders, you can't just wave away a talent gap, and saying the US can win the group seems to do just that). It seems you are trying to read something in that statement that wasn't there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I fully expect the U.S. to get it's ass fairly handed to it. I'd say third in the group is a reasonable expectation, anything more constitutes overachievement.

And those two sentences, plus about a buck, will get you a cup of coffee at MickeyD's.

[RPI-Fan]

He said the US was at best the 3rd best team in the group. In that statement he didn't indicate that he thought the US would not finish in the 2nd spot (though he may find it unlikely). He even later indicated he was speaking about talent (and while a 'team' concept can do wonders, you can't just wave away a talent gap, and saying the US can win the group seems to do just that). It seems you are trying to read something in that statement that wasn't there.

I know what he said, and it's still a preposterous statement. What you've quoted from me was a typo on my part.

The USA National Team is not inferior to the Czechs or Italians (or any team other than Brazil for that matter) in the way that Crapshoot implied.

[Blade6119]

I know what he said, and it's still a preposterous statement. What you've quoted from me was a typo on my part.

The USA National Team is not inferior to the Czechs or Italians (or any team other than Brazil for that matter) in the way that Crapshoot implied.
As a US fan, i think our top 11 can play with anyone in the world...win everytime, no...but i think we can go out and play with anyone and make it a game...but the difference between us and the italians to me is past our top 11. Their second team would dominate our second team. I havent studied the czech's enough to comment on their depth, only their top 11.

[MIJB#19]

I am saying that a somewhat fair, if not crude, way of measuring a national team's talent is the dollar value of their individual players. If you put them all for sale on the transfer market, what would they fetch? The US might not even fetch what Essien alone would. Italy would get perhaps 10-20 times more than the USA.Then your point is that Freddy Adu had to be selected, because he's got the same value as the entire Team USA squad. You and I both know that the quality of a player is not determined by their price tag, or vice versa. It's depenadant on age, nationality, injury history, merchandise sales potential, the availablility of other options, dependant on how much money the buyer can bring in, how far in debt the seller is and based on the player's footballing skills. Especially with national teams, that's like the last thing you should look at. Past results should be taken into account mostly and based on that, the USA isn't looking good, although there's a case against Ghana and Italy too.

With that said, the reason the USA has had undeniable success is because we play more like a team than other nations with few, though notable, exceptions (South Korea springs to mind).If you call one good month in the past eight years undeniable success, then I agree with you. Just like with South Korea. There's no way I'm going to expect Korea to go deap into the tournament, although, given their draw, they have a relative easy schedule all the way to the quarterfinals, especially if Spain pulls an old fashioned bad-in-big-tournaments.

O'Brien had huge injury problems prior to the last World Cup (granted, not nearly as bad as he has from 2002-2006), and put together, by far, the best three weeks of his life. I don't know how The Bruce did it last time, but I'll put my faith in him that he can do it again. O'Brien is the most talented American soccer player ever -- if he is 100% healthy ('game fit' not required), he MUST be on the field.O'Brien was one of the reasons why I rooted for the USA back in 2002, but since then, he's been hurt and hurt and hurt. I hope he can back to his old form, when he was healthy he was an above average player in the Eredivisie. But right now I'm skeptic (realistic?) about his chances.

Gibbs is coming off pretty much the only injury of his career. He played extraordinarily well in a handful of games at the end of the Dutch season. He has been able to gain full favor with The Bruce with recent friendlies and US training camps. He's preparing for a move to the Premier League and will look to break immediately into the starting lineup. He is young and extremely athletic -- if there's a player that recent injuries shouldn't hamper, it's Gibbs.He's been out of football for 10 months, that ain't peanuts. Your 'extraordinarily well' can be down graded to one good performance in five appearances. Look, I'm not trying to say he's a bad player, he might as well have been the most in-form player of ADO Den Haag at that time, but he's coming back for a long absence. Going from Feyenoord to Charlton Athletic ain't a move forward, although it's probably going to be a classic step back to move two steps forward after that one.

[RPI-Fan]

Then your point is that Freddy Adu had to be selected, because he's got the same value as the entire Team USA squad. You and I both know that the quality of a player is not determined by their price tag, or vice versa. It's depenadant on age, nationality, injury history, merchandise sales potential, the availablility of other options, dependant on how much money the buyer can bring in, how far in debt the seller is and based on the player's footballing skills. Especially with national teams, that's like the last thing you should look at. Past results should be taken into account mostly and based on that, the USA isn't looking good, although there's a case against Ghana and Italy too.

Look, you simply don't understand what I'm saying. I'll break it down a little more.

1) Assign each player on the national team a transfer market dollar value
2) Add all these up
3) Get a very, very rough estimate of the talent on that team.

It's not perfect, but it is what it is. In this case, the USA is probably 20 or more times lower than Italy & Ceska. We're certainly lower than Ghana, maybe by less of a margin.


Now, it seems like Crapshoot (prototypical Eurosnob), wants to use this as a criteria for evaluating team quality. I'm saying it simply doesn't work and he couldn't be more wrong.

[MIJB#19]

Look, you simply don't understand what I'm saying.

bla bla bla

(prototypical Eurosnob)

bla bla bla
I understand you perfectly well: You don't have any arguments and instead pull your Eurosnob card.

[RPI-Fan]

I understand you perfectly well: You don't have any arguments and instead pull your Eurosnob card.

I've spent 3 or 4 posts very clearly articulating my arguments which you still have twisted and misrepresented.

Now, you choose to outright ignore them.

[AlexB]

I love it when you guys talk Team USA - this is going to add a lot of extra spice to the WC ;)

[Crapshoot]

I know what he said, and it's still a preposterous statement. What you've quoted from me was a typo on my part.

The USA National Team is not inferior to the Czechs or Italians (or any team other than Brazil for that matter) in the way that Crapshoot implied.


Dear god, take off your rose-tinted glasses. Does the US have the talent level of either the Cezchs or the Italians ? No - its not even close. The Italian 2nd 11 is probably a better team than US first 11. None of this means the US doesn't have a chance - it simply means that anyone who goes in thinking the US is favored is smoking something strong.

[Crapshoot]

Look, you simply don't understand what I'm saying. I'll break it down a little more.

1) Assign each player on the national team a transfer market dollar value
2) Add all these up
3) Get a very, very rough estimate of the talent on that team.

It's not perfect, but it is what it is. In this case, the USA is probably 20 or more times lower than Italy & Ceska. We're certainly lower than Ghana, maybe by less of a margin.


Now, it seems like Crapshoot (prototypical Eurosnob), wants to use this as a criteria for evaluating team quality. I'm saying it simply doesn't work and he couldn't be more wrong.

No, you're an idiot who doesn't know any football, and is the stereotypical ugly American who talks shit about things he doesn't understand. And for what its worth, I'm not fucking European. Nice try.

[Crapshoot]

In fact,
lets look at a probable Italian lineup, assuming Lippi sticks with his favored 4-3-1-2. At the back, you have Buffon, who's one of the 5 best goalkeepers in the world (and yes, this means he is better then Keller). In defense, you go Zambrotta, Nesta, Cannovaro, and either Oddo or Zaccardo - certainly, someone with extreme pace might give this line some trouble. IN midfield, you have Daniel De Rossi (soon to be starring at Juventus, Madrid, or Man U) with Gattuso and Pilro, with Perrotta or Camorenesi on the bench. Totti goes in the hole tucked behind the strikers. Up front, you have Toni and Iaquinta - to say nothing of Inzaghi and Del Piero on the bench. Now, you probably know nothing about half these players - but that is some top level talent, and that's the team Lippi has spent a couple of years developing - they could probably throw bigger names out there (Vieri, though he injured), but its pretty impressive.

[RPI-Fan]

No, you're an idiot who doesn't know any football, and is the stereotypical ugly American who talks shit about things he doesn't understand. And for what its worth, I'm not fucking European. Nice try.

Being European isn't a prerequisite for being a Eurosnob.

[ISiddiqui]

Being European isn't a prerequisite for being a Eurosnob.

I'd rather be a eurosnob than an ignorant American. To say the US team has even close to the talent of Italy or Czech Republic squads is utterly, batshit crazy! Note: THAT IS NOT SAYING THE US WON'T GO FORWARD. They may indeed get lucky and do so. However, the talent is not there for the US to be favored or to be considered one of the top 2 squads in the group. Now, if you want to say the 'team' outlook of the US squad will allow them to play beyond their talent and, may, with luck get them into the top 2, that is an entirely different story.

I think you need to stop spending time at Bigsoccer since you believe the US has the talent level of Italy or Czech Republic and like to bandy around 'eurosnob' like you think it is some sort of major insult.

In fact,
lets look at a probable Italian lineup, assuming Lippi sticks with his favored 4-3-1-2. At the back, you have Buffon, who's one of the 5 best goalkeepers in the world (and yes, this means he is better then Keller). In defense, you go Zambrotta, Nesta, Cannovaro, and either Oddo or Zaccardo - certainly, someone with extreme pace might give this line some trouble. IN midfield, you have Daniel De Rossi (soon to be starring at Juventus, Madrid, or Man U) with Gattuso and Pilro, with Perrotta or Camorenesi on the bench. Totti goes in the hole tucked behind the strikers. Up front, you have Toni and Iaquinta - to say nothing of Inzaghi and Del Piero on the bench. Now, you probably know nothing about half these players - but that is some top level talent, and that's the team Lippi has spent a couple of years developing - they could probably throw bigger names out there (Vieri, though he injured), but its pretty impressive.

You don't even have to go that far, IMO. Guiseppi Rossi who is in the ManU reserves is a dual national. He can pick Italy or the US to represent. He'd basically walk onto the starting lineup for the US team. Italy doesn't even invite him to the U-20 team (though there is some Serie A bias there, I admit).


That all being said, I think the US has a chance at finishing 2nd and even tying, if not beating, Italy... but I'm not going to delude myself by thinking it is very high chance. I hope they can tie Italy or Czech and beat Ghana, but even that may not lead to the US going through.

[RPI-Fan]

Ok, why do people think I said the US has more talent than Italy or Ceska?

I've said EXACTLY the opposite over and over again on this page of the thread.

[AlexB]

The one area RPI has let himself down in is his statement that the USA will continue to be succesful in WCs - lets be honest, this phrase should be followed with a qualifier, such as compared to expectations, etc.

Yes USA beat England in 1950, yes they reached the QF in 2002, being successful in WC means winning regularly - given this USA haven't been successful (and no, neither have England), and as such cannot continue to be somthinng that they haven't started yet.

That said, RPI is right in as much as his argument has been misprepresented in this thread - at the same time if the USA were to reach the 2nd round it would be an achievement. Despite the world ranking, most teams in the top 20 would fancy their chances against USA. Certainly if England, for example, (#10) were to meet USA (#5), there would be a national outcry similar to that of 1950 if we didn't win ;)

[Critch]

Certainly if England, for example, (#10) were to meet USA (#5), there would be a national outcry similar to that of 1950 if we didn't win ;)

That's because they are Eurosnobs.

[RPI-Fan]

By the way, here's my argument one more time:

The USA has WAY less talent than Italy and Ceska (and possibly Ghana).

We play as a team WAY better than any of them.

[AlexB]

RPI - I hear your argument: FWIW I think it's a decent one, look at Greece two years ago for example. However, history will also tell you the wins for workmanlike teams are outweighed by those of talented teams...

[RPI-Fan]

RPI - I hear your argument: FWIW I think it's a decent one, look at Greece two years ago for example. However, history will also tell you the wins for workmanlike teams are outweighed by those of talented teams...

I agree -- certainly, we would get laughed off the field against Brazil.

Italy and Ceska should be interesting because they are about as high of a level team that "excellent teamwork" might be effective against.

I guess we''ll just have to watch to find out. :)

[Critch]

Is there any actual proof of this "Superiour teamwork" theory? Because looking back at the US's record against European teams in World Cups, and looking at even challenge matches over the last 6 years, the record is pretty poor.

[AlexB]

I agree -- certainly, we would get laughed off the field against Brazil.

Italy and Ceska should be interesting because they are about as high of a level team that "excellent teamwork" might be effective against.

I guess we''ll just have to watch to find out. :)

Indeed - the beauty of the game :) I would guess though that of the top 20, only Mexico would be pissed about being drawn against USA in a knockout tie, as you seem to have a good record against them. I think every other country would fancy their chances

[MIJB#19]

I've spent 3 or 4 posts very clearly articulating my arguments which you still have twisted and misrepresented.

Now, you choose to outright ignore them.
You chose to use that stupid word, again (and it really doesn't matter whether it was towards me or someone else). I PMed you about it a before, but YOU chose to not reply. Not me. I know it's just a message board on the internet, but I also come here to talk about soccer, learn about US soccer and exchange thoughts about the upcoming tournament. You show up and can't use common sense and instead use your foul mouth. To me that's end of discussion.

[AlexB]

Is there any actual proof of this "Superiour teamwork" theory? Because looking back at the US's record against European teams in World Cups, and looking at even challenge matches over the last 6 years, the record is pretty poor.

There are examples of teamwork working (from my knowledge, recently Greece, Bolton, hell, even my team Leicester going back a few more years)

But yes, Team USA's record against the European powers is pretty horrible - IIRC it's along the lines of 0-9, and 4-26 goals for/against. But quoting this destoys the fun in egging RPI along ;)

[Critch]

There are examples of teamwork working (from my knowledge, recently Greece, Bolton, hell, even my team Leicester going back a few more years)

But yes, Team USA's record against the European powers is pretty horrible - IIRC it's along the lines of 0-9, and 4-26 goals for/against. But quoting this destoys the fun in egging RPI along ;)

Yes, I was meaning proof of the US having superiour teamwork. Greece show that anything can happen in a tournament. (Almost anything, Trinidad and Tobago suck, they're going straight home.)

[tanglewood]

RPI, why do you use Ceska for the Czech Republic but not Italia for Italy? Get some consistency man! ;)

[ISiddiqui]

Ok, why do people think I said the US has more talent than Italy or Ceska?

Because you've blasted Crapshoot for saying exactly that.

Now if you thought he said something different, that isn't his fault.

[Chief Rum]

Because you've blasted Crapshoot for saying exactly that.

Now if you thought he said something different, that isn't his fault.

I would say call him on being inconsistent in his argument, then, not accuse him of saying something he didn't. In fact, I remember him makign the argument that all three teams in the U.S.'s group might have much better talent than the U.S. (and I'm not talking about just the post a few posts up from this one).

I don't know that RPI should be throwing around "Eurosnob" (or that anyone should be accusing him of being stereotypical ugly American, which, BTW, insults me, among others I am sure). Nor am I sure his argument is all that solid.

That said, he is dead on that what he has been trying to say has been misrepresented and twisted around several times by those arguing against him.

[MIJB#19]

That said, he is dead on that what he has been trying to say has been misrepresented and twisted around several times by those arguing against him.Then it's a pot-kettle situation (which I don't think it is). I disagree with that I twisted his words, whereas he's been twisting my words for months. He's been accusing me of anti-American sentiments every time I try to mingle in the discussion about team USA. He and I go way back with talking about soccer, but what he's been showing the past few months doesn't even closely resemble the exchange of knowledge we had years back. But right now, I'm done with it. Throwing his favorite Euro**** word around, to me was that last straw.

[Chief Rum]

Then it's a pot-kettle situation (which I don't think it is). I disagree with that I twisted his words, whereas he's been twisting my words for months. He's been accusing me of anti-American sentiments every time I try to mingle in the discussion about team USA. He and I go way back with talking about soccer, but what he's been showing the past few months doesn't even closely resemble the exchange of knowledge we had years back. But right now, I'm done with it. Throwing his favorite Euro**** word around, to me was that last straw.

Hmm...well, I can't speak to how the two of you have related over the past few months. I can only speak to what I read in the past few days of posts, most of which I read for the first time tonight.

And when I say twisting/misrepresenting, that is aimed at several individuals, not just yourself, and I don't believe any of it is malicious or intentional on anyone's parts. I just think people need to read his posts a little more carefully before responding.

Eventually, his main point seemed to finally be understood (that the team concept the US national team has in place elevates its game to higher than the sum--whatever value you use--of its parts and thus competitive with the Italy's and Czech Republics of the world). Whether or not that is true I leave to people who follow the game even more closely than I do (which is decent for an American, but nowhere near to the level a truly dedicated fan would).

[Flasch186]

BTW maybe Im a little late but who was the ref for the UEFA championship game? IS that typical for him?

[SirFozzie]

Goddamn, the Revs took the first 25 minutes of the game off againt FC Dallas, and they got hided for it, 4-0. :/

[RPI-Fan]

RPI, why do you use Ceska for the Czech Republic but not Italia for Italy? Get some consistency man! ;)

Because I like using one word instead of "Czech Republic", and somehow doing "Ceska" justifies that for me. :)

[Critch]

For the 99.9% of you who don't have Setanta you've just missed a good, if one-sided, playoff game to decide who gets the last promotion place to the English Premier League. And an American scored the first goal too!

It's going to be tough for Watford next year, but good luck to them. I'm sure their fans will enjoy being back in the top division even if they are favorites to go straight back down.

[Critch]

Dola...

Steven Gerrard says to look out for a darkhorse to challenge for the World Cup.

"You also have to look out for teams such as Denmark, ourselves and Germany"

[tanglewood]

Because I like using one word instead of "Czech Republic", and somehow doing "Ceska" justifies that for me. :)

Well you should be using either Czechia (English) or Cesko (Czech).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Czech_Republic

Here to help. :)

[Crapshoot]

I don't know that RPI should be throwing around "Eurosnob" (or that anyone should be accusing him of being stereotypical ugly American, which, BTW, insults me, among others I am sure). Nor am I sure his argument is all that solid.



FWIW, I don't think anyone else here neccessarily fits into that description - but RPI fan has demonstrated no knowledge of football outside the US team - your Boro obsession shows that's not a problem for you. :D

[RPI-Fan]

Dola...

Steven Gerrard says to look out for a darkhorse to challenge for the World Cup.

"You also have to look out for teams such as Denmark, ourselves and Germany"

Isn't everyone that's not Brazil a darkhorse?

[Critch]

Isn't everyone that's not Brazil a darkhorse?

If he's including Germany and England as darkhorses, seems like that's what he's going for.

It's the fact that he picked Denmark, despite them not qualifying, that is the main talking point though :)

[ISiddiqui]

If he's including Germany and England as darkhorses, seems like that's what he's going for.

It's the fact that he picked Denmark, despite them not qualifying, that is the main talking point though :)

Yeah, he's on top of the ball ;).

If Denmark did manage to somehow win, then, man, that'd be the greatest upset of all time! :D

[SirFozzie]

hey they already won one international tournament they failed to qualify for.. what's a 2nd?

[Crapshoot]

Well, In 1992, Denmark didn't qualify for Euro 1992. However, when Yugoslavia was kicked out, they came in, and won the whole tournament. You never know what might happen. :D

[SirFozzie]

ha Beat ya! :D

[Critch]

It was Ukraine and Turkey that finished above Denmark. Is there any likelyhood of them both descending into civil war in the next three weeks to let in Denmark? I suppose they could declare war on each other, that might work but seems unlikely too.

So I'll carry on thinking Gerrard predicted Denmark because he's stupid and all those white Northern Europeans look alike to him :)

[ISiddiqui]

Turkey didn't qualify this go around... and are behind Norway in case one of the Euro countries gets booted.

[Critch]

Turkey didn't qualify this go around... and are behind Norway in case one of the Euro countries gets booted.

It was Ukraine and Turkey that finished above Denmark in their group, so I'd guess Turkey would get the place if Ukraine withdrew. That's why I added Turkey to the list, not because I don't know the teams that qualified like what Gerrard doesnt.

No idea what wrinkles the playoff game losers would add, but it's pretty unlikely at this late stage so I guess it's not worth looking into :)

[Coffee Warlord]

Heh. As a side, I'm now in a cash pool for next year's Premier & the World Cup, with several hundred people playing and over a thousand dollars to the top finishers.

One of exactly 2 Americans in the pool. :)

[law90026]

BTW maybe Im a little late but who was the ref for the UEFA championship game? IS that typical for him?

if you're talking about the Champion's League final, no idea. But he was abysmal :( Of course, the referee's association has defended him but he really ruined the finals IMO.

This of course follows on from the fact that one of the linesmen for the finals took a photo in a Barca jersey ... then was replaced just before the finals.

[Cringer]

Goddamn, the Revs took the first 25 minutes of the game off againt FC Dallas, and they got hided for it, 4-0. :/

Way to go, Houston could have used a Dallas loss there.

I was at the Chicago-Houston game. I think I now understand why people riot in Europe. That was the most frustrating sporting event I have ever been to. IMO Houston controlled most of that game. A fuck up on defense allows a 'break away' on goal for Chicago and they get te 1-0 lead. Houston just can't finish anything the whole game despite getting the shots.

And that finish. Oh crap that ending just about killed me. A crap disallowed goal that would have tied it up. End then the header off the crossbar in stoppage time. :(

[Cringer]

Dola-

A couple more things about that game. Dynamo could have used Ching. Moreno and Cerritos had a hard time against the bigger Chicago defenders. I know size isn't everything in this sport, but it seemed to make a difference here. The Dynamo had their best play from the midfielders and defenders coming up.

De Rosario made me a fan of his in this game.

I don't know, that was the impression I got at the game. Maybe it came off different on TV.

[Chief Rum]

Wow, the Gunners reportedly turned down not one, but two $94 M (73M Euro) offers for Henry. The offers came from Barca and Real (what a shock).

Look, I know Henry is a good to Arsenal fans, but seriously, if you're skirting the edge of Champions League play as they were this year, I say thanks for the memories, Thierry, and bonne chance en Espagne.

[Critch]

Wow, the Gunners reportedly turned down not one, but two $94 M (73M Euro) offers for Henry. The offers came from Barca and Real (what a shock).

Looks like Arsenal are flashing about the cash to get ready for the new stadium. Turning down silly money for Henry, now it seems they've stepped in and are ready to snatch Tomas Rosicky after his move to Atletico Madrid hit a snag. Apparently he's already passed a medical.

Rosicky would be a great addition for them, could mean the end for another midfielder though. Maybe Reyes back to Spain?

Sol Campbell to Fenerbache for a final payday is rumored too, big money to pad out his retirement fund.

[SirFozzie]

Way to go, Houston could have used a Dallas loss there.


well, if we play that way this weekend when you guys are up here, it'll even out :/

[ISiddiqui]

Wow, the Gunners reportedly turned down not one, but two $94 M (73M Euro) offers for Henry. The offers came from Barca and Real (what a shock).

Look, I know Henry is a good to Arsenal fans, but seriously, if you're skirting the edge of Champions League play as they were this year, I say thanks for the memories, Thierry, and bonne chance en Espagne.

At some point though, no matter how much is offered, you have to keep the face of your franchise. Its more than just getting a ton of great players in return, but dealing a fan favorite as you move into a new stadium (and are seen as having more than enough money) just doesn't sit well with the base.

[Fighter of Foo]

Rosicky will take Bergkamp's spot and play more as a withdrawn striker/attacking midfielder. Pires is gone to Villareal, so Reyes will play more out on the wing.

[Cringer]

well, if we play that way this weekend when you guys are up here, it'll even out :/

I meant to mention this weekends game between Houston and the Revs. I am thinking I will break down and get mls.tv when I get home at the end of the week.

[daedalus]

Wow, the Gunners reportedly turned down not one, but two $94 M (73M Euro) offers for Henry. The offers came from Barca and Real (what a shock).

Look, I know Henry is a good to Arsenal fans, but seriously, if you're skirting the edge of Champions League play as they were this year, I say thanks for the memories, Thierry, and bonne chance en Espagne.Sentimentality can cloud your judgement and, perhaps, cause you to make financially unsound decisions. I would have made the same one as Peter Hill-Wood and Arsene Wenger (in their shoes).

On the other hand, as Isiddiqui, Henry IS the face of the franchise. I don't know what kind of financial ramification having him lead the team out at Ashburton Grove is or would be but it is huge for the name, face and reputation of the club. Especially one that seeks to be on the same level as the United and Real of the G-14 world. Additionally, with Henry on board, the club has a shot at making that money back in the Champion's League in, probably, 2-3 years. Last, but not least, is the inability to use that money to replace him. The likes of Sheva or Ronaldinho are going nowhere which leaves Wenger trying to buy young (and hope to develop) to replace Henry* or splash the cash unnecessarily for names like a Torres.

*I consider this to be different than spending money on a Walcott as I would consider it an investment in the future to "improve" the team (assuming he pans out) rather than spending to try to prevent sliding backward.

Of course, I am bias as I enjoy watching Henry score his video game goals in Arsenal red-and-white. And even yellow. Ugh, yellow.

On that topic, Arsenal fans on the BigSoccer boards seem to prefer the yellow to the blue as they say that we have had better seasons in the yellow. Ugh, yellow.

[RPI-Fan]

I meant to mention this weekends game between Houston and the Revs. I am thinking I will break down and get mls.tv when I get home at the end of the week.

I bought this a while ago and really enjoy it. Absolutely no quality problems this past weekend.

[tanglewood]

On that topic, Arsenal fans on the BigSoccer boards seem to prefer the yellow to the blue as they say that we have had better seasons in the yellow. Ugh, yellow.

I like the yellow Arsenal shirt. Arsenal have always worn a yellow away shirt as far as I can remember, apart from a few seasons in the early 00s where they wore that shocking blue/grey kit.

[ISiddiqui]

On the other hand, as Isiddiqui, Henry IS the face of the franchise. I don't know what kind of financial ramification having him lead the team out at Ashburton Grove is or would be but it is huge for the name, face and reputation of the club. Especially one that seeks to be on the same level as the United and Real of the G-14 world. Additionally, with Henry on board, the club has a shot at making that money back in the Champion's League in, probably, 2-3 years. Last, but not least, is the inability to use that money to replace him. The likes of Sheva or Ronaldinho are going nowhere which leaves Wenger trying to buy young (and hope to develop) to replace Henry* or splash the cash unnecessarily for names like a Torres.

Well said! There are too many variables with selling Henry. There may indeed be an initial drop in merchandise sales and perhaps a load of angry fans who's favorite player just got dealt. And who replaces him? Which top tier striker are you going to get? And while we do like the 'team' concept to be thought of as "BIG TIME", you have to have a superstar. Someone that can be considered identical to 'the club'. When you think Arsenal, you think Henry. Considerations like that make it very difficult to sell Henry.

[Chief Rum]

Well said! There are too many variables with selling Henry. There may indeed be an initial drop in merchandise sales and perhaps a load of angry fans who's favorite player just got dealt. And who replaces him? Which top tier striker are you going to get? And while we do like the 'team' concept to be thought of as "BIG TIME", you have to have a superstar. Someone that can be considered identical to 'the club'. When you think Arsenal, you think Henry. Considerations like that make it very difficult to sell Henry.

I understand completely what you and daedalus are saying. But, sheesh, that is a lot of money, and as I pointed out, the Gunners flirted with not even making the CL next year, despite their success in it this year. That has to worry management abit. Maybe if I didn't go in with a plan, I wouldn;t do it, but if I identified some targets beforehand, why not? With that kind of money, you could go out and get someone like Torres, someone who could be on the receiving end of Cesc and Reyes passes for a decade, and still have money left over to nab the next young Vieira, whom they really missed last season, and a good young CB to prepare for Campbell's departure.

But that's off of the top of my head, and from a completely unattached point of view.

[daedalus]

I like the yellow Arsenal shirt. Arsenal have always worn a yellow away shirt as far as I can remember, apart from a few seasons in the early 00s where they wore that shocking blue/grey kit.Recently, they seem to have been alternating the alternate (tee-hee!) kit each year. With the 49 games unbeaten and this year's CL run coming in yellow kit years supporting some people's claim that the yellow kit is better for the club.

I rather like the look of the blue.

[daedalus]

I understand completely what you and daedalus are saying. But, sheesh, that is a lot of money, and as I pointed out, the Gunners flirted with not even making the CL next year, despite their success in it this year. That has to worry management abit. Maybe if I didn't go in with a plan, I wouldn;t do it, but if I identified some targets beforehand, why not? With that kind of money, you could go out and get someone like Torres, someone who could be on the receiving end of Cesc and Reyes passes for a decade, and still have money left over to nab the next young Vieira, whom they really missed last season, and a good young CB to prepare for Campbell's departure.

But that's off of the top of my head, and from a completely unattached point of view.I think that for some team, not making the Champion's League is a complete disaster. Leeds being a very good example of this unfortunate situation. Happily, through Wenger's vision and planning, I believe we could have survived being out of Champion's League competition (and, more importantly, money) for one year. (Living with the Spuds being in instead of us is an entirely different issue.) Obviously, competing in and receiving money from Champion's League is preferrable. And having Henry would give us a better chance to be back into the top 4 and making money afterward.

And, of course, it does not hurt that I am completely and utterly biased and am a big fan of Henry. :D

I do not get to watch La Liga very much and rarely ever get to watch Torres. I would wonder if he would be the best choice for a replacement, given the difficult transition from La Liga to the premiership.

We missed out on the current "next Vieira" when Yaya could not get his permit. But I think we had another in Abou Diaby . . . at least until that USELESS, TALENTLESS, BRAINLESS AND WORTHLESS PIECE OF DAY OLD DRIED UP DEAD GOAT FECES from Sunderland wrecked his ankle (prior to fading into oblivion). No, no, I'm not bitter or anything. I'm quite calm.

Regardless, I think we need a defensive midfielder/ball winner to partner with Cesc (and, in any case, Diaby was not it) but I am not sure Le Boss sees it the same way. Gilberto Silva is a good "invisible wall" when we are in our 4-5-1 (I'm pretending that his giveaway that caused Jens' red card does not exist) but he does not make a good partner for Cesc in the 4-4-2.

I am relatively okay with our centreback situation given Kolo's ability to partner with Senderos and Djourou progressing well (our 3rd teenager at the World Cup, I believe we are the only club able to make that claim). Obviously, I would not mind Curtis Davies or, less likely, Vincent Kompany thrown in the mix but I am okay to go into next season with what we have.

[FrogMan]

I am relatively okay with our centreback situation given Kolo's ability to partner with Senderos and Djourou progressing well (our 3rd teenager at the World Cup, I believe we are the only club able to make that claim). Obviously, I would not mind Curtis Davies or, less likely, Vincent Kompany thrown in the mix but I am okay to go into next season with what we have.

Not only would I not mind him but I'd find it kind of sweet because, you know, he's a former Luton Town Hatter :)

FM

[law90026]

I understand completely what you and daedalus are saying. But, sheesh, that is a lot of money, and as I pointed out, the Gunners flirted with not even making the CL next year, despite their success in it this year. That has to worry management abit. Maybe if I didn't go in with a plan, I wouldn;t do it, but if I identified some targets beforehand, why not? With that kind of money, you could go out and get someone like Torres, someone who could be on the receiving end of Cesc and Reyes passes for a decade, and still have money left over to nab the next young Vieira, whom they really missed last season, and a good young CB to prepare for Campbell's departure.

But that's off of the top of my head, and from a completely unattached point of view.

One thing to bear in mind is that this was a transition year for Arsenal. Anyone who thought otherwise was being unrealistic. With the sale of Viera before the season starting and no replacement being brought in, it was little wonder Arsenal started in shaky fashion. Quite frankly, the Arsenal in the last third of the season was slowly getting back into its previously awesome form and, if it continues, Arsenal will be right back there challenging for the title.

The other thing about selling the star player (Henry in this case) is that it leads to new problems. First, can a replacement be found? Sure, there are always "name" players out there that can be acquired but these players would be equally over-priced, especially since the club would know that Arsenal had tons of cash to spend. Look at how Chelsea has to overspend when they want a player as an example.

Second, there is never any real guarantee that a "name" player will settle down. There have been sterling examples over the past years. Look at Bergkamp during his Inter years, Kuivert at Newcastle, Drogba at Chelsea (arguable but I don't think he justifies his price). The risk of losing your best player (one of the best in the world btw) for another player ... not worth it in this case.

Third, there's no such thing as the next "young" player. So much of this is hype. Sure, some players may appear to have tons of potential but it isn't always fulfilled. Look at Sinima-Pongolle in Liverpool, who was regarded as the next big thing when he played in the U16s. He hasn't panned out at all.

I think Arsenal did the right thing. They kept one of the best players in the world and they have a huge stadium in place. The future looks bright :)

PS: Arsenal fan here, so I may be a tad biased :P

[Marc Vaughan]

Wow, the Gunners reportedly turned down not one, but two $94 M (73M Euro) offers for Henry. The offers came from Barca and Real (what a shock).

Look, I know Henry is a good to Arsenal fans, but seriously, if you're skirting the edge of Champions League play as they were this year, I say thanks for the memories, Thierry, and bonne chance en Espagne.

Not worth the risk to sell him imho - with Henry Arsenal have been consistently achieving a place in the Champions League, this nets them on average around £30m a year ... as such unless they could guarentee his replacement was going to be consistent enough to ensure that this continued (and strikers are notoriously hot/cold at times when settling into new clubs, something Arsenal can't afford to happen realistically - they were already touch and go for the CL this year).

(also remember that transfer money isn't 'pure profit' for a club, there are tax ramifacations etc. to transfers (and yes these are modelled in FM thanks for asking ;) ))

[Chief Rum]

heh heh well, I guess I'm in the minority. :D

Glad to see some serious discussion, though, about top league footy.

Okay, who wants to take a crack on what Boro should do to get back to Europe? :)

[bulletsponge]

(also remember that transfer money isn't 'pure profit' for a club, there are tax ramifacations etc. to transfers (and yes these are modelled in FM thanks for asking ))

so the damn tax man gets us in the game too :mad:

for nearly 100m i would sell henry. hes getting up there in age and thats a sh*t load of dough. for 100m they can buy several young promising players and groom them to be stars. hopefully one or 2 will become great players (thinking of Ben Arfa). they can fill several holes in their lineup while making 1 hole, but with the additions of other players they will offset.

i should note that im not an expert in soccer, but in almost every sport my answer would be the same. except more so in soccer cause there all more peeps who play it. as long as you dont expect one man to replace all Henry does and get several to carry the load it can work and make you a nice pile of money, which is what the business is about.

[Crapshoot]

heh heh well, I guess I'm in the minority. :D

Glad to see some serious discussion, though, about top league footy.

Okay, who wants to take a crack on what Boro should do to get back to Europe? :)

Realistically ? Prayer. :D

[law90026]

so the damn tax man gets us in the game too :mad:

for nearly 100m i would sell henry. hes getting up there in age and thats a sh*t load of dough. for 100m they can buy several young promising players and groom them to be stars. hopefully one or 2 will become great players (thinking of Ben Arfa). they can fill several holes in their lineup while making 1 hole, but with the additions of other players they will offset.

i should note that im not an expert in soccer, but in almost every sport my answer would be the same. except more so in soccer cause there all more peeps who play it. as long as you dont expect one man to replace all Henry does and get several to carry the load it can work and make you a nice pile of money, which is what the business is about.

Yeah, the same problem will arise. You're essentially praying that one of the young players will eventually be as good as Henry is at this time, which is exceedingly unlikely, considering how good Henry is.

Arsenal is, in fact, a great example of what selling a great player can do for a team, the player in question being Patrick Viera. Yes, he was getting a bit older, yes he didn't play as well last season, but he is still regarded as one of the best central midfielders in the world.

After his sale, the entire team clearly didn't play well for a long stretch of time. Near the end of the season, Arsenal finally got it together, mainly because of the emergence of Cesc Fabregas IMO. But it was a struggle and that's what the sale of Henry would do for Arsenal. The question is whether there is a player out there that could replace Henry and what he does for Arsenal.

One thing to remember is that football clubs are exceedingly dependent on their performances in various competitions. If they don't do well, it can spiral quickly into financial disaster (see Leeds United). Unlike American sports, where there is no relegation concept, football clubs fear being relegated because of the loss of TV revenue and gate receipts. For top-tier clubs, this also means qualification for Europe. Loss of revenue can be disastrous for football clubs.

As an example, I think the latest financial reports indicated that Arsenal earned a huge amount because of their extended run in the Champions League, more than double what Spurs earned (if I remember correctly it was in the vicinity of 20+ million pounds difference). So a bad season actually means significant dip in profits, which escalates into the inability to purchase new players and to refresh the team, which means a widening gap between you and other top teams. There is no salary cap in football.

So the question to be asked is whether 100 million is sufficient to off-set against all these factors. In this case, I would say no, simply because Henry is one of the best players in the world. You don't give up such a proven player for a chance of a youngster making it bid.

[ISiddiqui]

And Pires... is gone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/5015814.stm

[daedalus]

Too bad. Super Bob was a great player for us. Too bad he wants his 2-year deal instead of being willing to accept the yearly. Can't say I blame him, it's his business. The only bad part is that he left on such a sad note (coming off in the 18th minute). But I think he is leaving on good feelings from Arsenal fans.

Don't know that the same thing can be said about Sol when he leaves.

[daedalus]

As an aside, some have speculated that Rosicky will be replacing Bergkamp but I'm note so sure I agree with that. I have a feeling Rosicky will be replacing Pires instead. I know that Rosicky has been a central player but Wenger has a tendency to move players around. If I understand correctly, I believe Ljungberg was a central attacker before he moved to Arsenal. I believe Hleb is making the same conversion. Rosicky will probably drift into the center of the pitch where he is used to operate which will, basically, be the same way that Pires used to operate and leave the left-side channel open to Henry with Coles overlapping.

Assuming Cole stays, otherwise replace his name with Clichy.

[daedalus]

As an aside, I always thought it was odd for Barça to have been chasing Henry when I think Cole would fit their need much better. They don't need another striker where they could really use attacking fullbacks to provide more width to their attacks.

[Critch]

As an aside, some have speculated that Rosicky will be replacing Bergkamp but I'm note so sure I agree with that.

I agree that Rosicky isn't a replacement for Bergkamp as Bergkamp hasn't started in a league game since October, so a replacement for Bergkamp is going to sit on the bench. Maybe a replacment for Bergkamp's replacement? :)

If you take away the 4 defenders and the Gilberto/Diaby holding role, you're left with 5 vaguely attacking positions with Hleb, Fabregas, Reyes, Rosicky, Ljungberg, Henry, Walcott, Van Persie, Adebayor to fill them, plus Lupoli and maybe Bendtner are ready for first team experience too. That's more of a logjam of talent for attacking positions than even Chelsea have, so I still think somebody will be on the way out. Hleb was rumored to be unhappy earlier in the season, but I'd guess he got happier when he settled in and was starting every game, so my money is still on Reyes. He hasn't been the same player since the "I want to play for Real Madrid, people are horrible here" bit, although a chunk of that is down to injury I guess.

Compared with the midfield and attack, the defence looks good but not deep. With Campbell on the way out you've got to think they're lining up somebody for central defence, the aforementioned Kompany would be great. Strengthen central defence and keep Cole and they'll be back next year.

I'll just be glad when they get back to their proper colors and in a new stadium. I always hated the tv camera angle at Highbury, too low for me. It was also the only ground in the UK that I'd ever been thrown out of, so I'm glad it's gone :)

p.s. Hope the Arsenal fans caught the 1971 Arsenal v Liverpool cup final on FSC last night, great to see those old names again. What a player Charlie George was, when he was on his game.

[Desnudo]

The hairstyles in the 78 or 79 Arsenal-Man U final were horrific.

[law90026]

I agree that Rosicky isn't a replacement for Bergkamp as Bergkamp hasn't started in a league game since October, so a replacement for Bergkamp is going to sit on the bench. Maybe a replacment for Bergkamp's replacement? :)

If you take away the 4 defenders and the Gilberto/Diaby holding role, you're left with 5 vaguely attacking positions with Hleb, Fabregas, Reyes, Rosicky, Ljungberg, Henry, Walcott, Van Persie, Adebayor to fill them, plus Lupoli and maybe Bendtner are ready for first team experience too. That's more of a logjam of talent for attacking positions than even Chelsea have, so I still think somebody will be on the way out. Hleb was rumored to be unhappy earlier in the season, but I'd guess he got happier when he settled in and was starting every game, so my money is still on Reyes. He hasn't been the same player since the "I want to play for Real Madrid, people are horrible here" bit, although a chunk of that is down to injury I guess.

Compared with the midfield and attack, the defence looks good but not deep. With Campbell on the way out you've got to think they're lining up somebody for central defence, the aforementioned Kompany would be great. Strengthen central defence and keep Cole and they'll be back next year.


Of the 5 attacking positions, there really are only 3 available IMO. Henry and Cesc are locks as starters, unless bad things happen during the world cup.

But as for Cole, if rumours are true (which is vehemently denied), he has a minimun release clause for 15 million pounds. If Real Madrid were to come in with such an offer, I think Cole should go, simply because Arsenal have 2 decent replacements for him in Clichy and Flamini. This is a sale that would make sense IMO and those funds could be used to either splash out on another big name (apparently Arsenal are after Owen, though we seem to hear that every year) or some youngsters for the future.

The one concern I have about Arsenal is that the youngsters nearly never get an opportunity to play, Fabregas and Van Persie being an exception. Lupoli has hardly ever featured, Upson left for Birmingham, Quincy left for Moscow ... I wonder if it's because:
1) the first team is so awesome that no youngster could step in unless said youngster was equally awesome;
2) so much pressure to win that the youngsters can't be fielded; or
3) the youngsters simply aren't good enough.

[condors]

The one concern I have about Arsenal is that the youngsters nearly never get an opportunity to play, Fabregas and Van Persie being an exception. Lupoli has hardly ever featured, Upson left for Birmingham, Quincy left for Moscow ... I wonder if it's because:
1) the first team is so awesome that no youngster could step in unless said youngster was equally awesome;
2) so much pressure to win that the youngsters can't be fielded; or
3) the youngsters simply aren't good enough.

I am no fan of the Gooners or Whiner but the guy has an eye for young talent and if they are good enough they are in the first time so i think its mostly 3. If i running thing i would do whatever it takes to open the new stadium with the best team possible i would not sell Cole but maybe one of the other left backs, and put in an offer for RVN Manutd have a little bit a surplus up front. Although i doubt Manutd would sell to Arsenal it could get other teams in the mix and get RVN out of the EPL which would be good for Arsenal.

[daedalus]

I agree that Rosicky isn't a replacement for Bergkamp as Bergkamp hasn't started in a league game since October, so a replacement for Bergkamp is going to sit on the bench. Maybe a replacment for Bergkamp's replacement? :)Well, as a full-time partner for Titi, Dennis was never replaced. [If indeed an incredible player as he *can* be.] Van Persie looked really good until he got hurt -- check out latestgoals.net for his goal against Blackburn on November 26th where he does the anti-JAR, took some kicks and scored from the right. Adebayor seemed to have formed a really good partnership with Henry once he came over -- check out Henry's goal against Aston Villa on April 01st where Adebayor brought the ball down and just dropped it off for Henry. I expect those two to battle it out for that spot with Reyes being the darkhorse to win it outright. A number of Sevilla follower have said that, in spite of occasionally playing on the left, Reyes' best position is as the support striker where he has room to roam left or right as situation dictates. He was a significant investment and I fully expect him to get any and all chances he needs to succeed and I don't think Le Boss is done with the notion of him partnering Henry. I just think he needs to let him be the support striker instead of being the mirror image of Henry. He did send Henry on great runs a number of time this past season. Lupoli seems to be higher up in the food chain -- and his scoring record in the reserves supports it -- but is FAR from being physically ready where Bendtner is apparently beginning to impress, especially at the U-21 tournament [YouTube apparently has the highlight of his goals at hxxp://youtube.com/watch?v=8A6K49WRVPE&search=bendtner but I have not seen it as I do not have the connection for it]. If you take away the 4 defenders and the Gilberto/Diaby holding role, you're left with 5 vaguely attacking positions with Hleb, Fabregas, Reyes, Rosicky, Ljungberg, Henry, Walcott, Van Persie, Adebayor to fill them, plus Lupoli and maybe Bendtner are ready for first team experience too. That's more of a logjam of talent for attacking positions than even Chelsea have, so I still think somebody will be on the way out. Hleb was rumored to be unhappy earlier in the season, but I'd guess he got happier when he settled in and was starting every game, so my money is still on Reyes. He hasn't been the same player since the "I want to play for Real Madrid, people are horrible here" bit, although a chunk of that is down to injury I guess.Diaby does not really seem to be a holding midfielder and is out until at least next January, at the minimum, thanks to that asshole at Sunderland. Hleb's best position is said to be in the middle but he is adapting to the right-side very well, I absolutely love his work rate tracking back to help the right-back and I think he has a great partnership with Eboue. I love Ljungberg's combativeness and heart but he's more brittle than . . . well, he's brittle, but I expect him to flop back and forth between the left and right wing until Wenger switches to the 4-5-1 in the Champion's League where he probably will move toward the middle. It would be nice if Wenger would use Rosicky in the middle some to spell Fabregas so he does not have to keep logging 50+ games but he's the anti-Ranieri and I don't expect him to sit terribly often so I expect Rosicky on the left-side more -- in similiar style to how Hleb was brought along this season -- and take over the role that Pires filled so well for so long in linking Cole with Henry. Given these scenarios, unless Reyes wins the support striker spot, I can see Reyes leaving as you said. The only problem is I don't think he'll bring back nearly as much as we spent on him. Bendtner and Lupoli will likely be restricted to Carling Cup and, maybe, an FA Cup appearance or two.

A HUGE position of need, in my opinion, is a defensive midfielder/ball winner. Gilberto Silva is currently the ONLY option there. Behind him are Flamini (who filled in wonderfully last season but seems to be more of a scrappy hustler than a midfield boss), Alexandre Song (who is apparently talented but incredibly raw and is nowhere near ready for the pace of the Premiership) and, perhaps, Sebastian Larsson (who seems to have a tough time getting on the pitch). Fabrice Muamba is highly rated and apparently did well in a Cup appearance but have not been heard from since. If it were up to me, this is where Lauren would be next season but I cannot see it happening with Wenger.Compared with the midfield and attack, the defence looks good but not deep. With Campbell on the way out you've got to think they're lining up somebody for central defence, the aforementioned Kompany would be great. Strengthen central defence and keep Cole and they'll be back next year.With Campbell leaving, I see a definite need for a buy. However, buy or not, as long as Pascal Cygan does not get more than 3 starts (and preferrably none), I'm happy. Djourou seems like he's on his way to being a good player and I would rather have him on the pitch over the Mighty Cybot any day. As you say, as long as Cole stays, we will be in GREAT shape at fullbacks.I'll just be glad when they get back to their proper colorsI'm so torn. I hate the red currant kit but I feel the need to save up money to make an attempt to get a #10 Bergkamp Red Currant kit.

[daedalus]

The one concern I have about Arsenal is that the youngsters nearly never get an opportunity to play, Fabregas and Van Persie being an exception. Lupoli has hardly ever featured, Upson left for Birmingham, Quincy left for Moscow ... I wonder if it's because:
1) the first team is so awesome that no youngster could step in unless said youngster was equally awesome;
2) so much pressure to win that the youngsters can't be fielded; or
3) the youngsters simply aren't good enough.Upson is probably the only youngster that Arsenal probably regret no longer having. But, it's Wenger's style to let players go to persue their career if he does not feel they can/will get to start at Arsenal soon. Upson was behind Campbell and Keown at the time, I believe. He did the same for Volz who was stuck behind Lauren with Hoyte breathing down his back. Another is Steve Sidwell who was not going to start ahead of Vieira, Edu, Gilberto and Ray Parlour and has gone on to become a very good player with Reading. To the detriment (in my opinion) of Arsenal, he even did the same for Parlour who was able to get a more lucrative contract because Arsenal released him. Bentley, I am led to believe, started believing his own ink and never had the work ethics or dedication to ever have been able to harness his talent and/or impress the boss. Which is ashame because he's darn talented and could yet develop into a very good Premiership-calibur player.

Quincy left because he apparently was beginning to frustrate coaches and teammates. He had speed to spare and plenty of on-ball skill but could not seem to progress past the tricks. His finishing was also said to be far from ready. Lupoli has not featured because he was simply not physically ready to play yet. The few times he has started, he has simply been pushed off the ball too easily. He has too much talent to not succeed but it will take time for him become physically ready. And I don't think it's that far away. There was a game toward the middle of the season (yet another loss) when he came on as a substitute and was able make some runs while being pushed.

I expect Aliadiere to be gone eventually, if not soon. He has simply been injured too often and is now stuck between Adebayor/Van Persie and Bendtner/Lupoli. I would also not be surprised to see Hoyte move on. He was said to have impressed last year on loan but will now be stuck behind Lauren, Eboue and, probably, Gilbert. He does have the added versatility of being able to play on the left as well, though. But, like with Volz, I can see Wenger let him move onto a starting place elsewhere. Possibly coming up on this (unfortunate) list is Ryan Smith who has a lot of talent but needs to start showing that he has progressed enough to start earning playing time.

So, uhhh, as condors said, it's mostly 3's with a few 1's thrown in. Jermaine Pennant is a category all on his own.

[Critch]

I hate the red currant kit but I feel the need to save up money to make an attempt to get a #10 Bergkamp Red Currant kit.

Go get one right now, it could save your life:

hxxp://xrl.us/mr23

[Desnudo]

A couple of questions I hope the Brits on the board can help answer: 1. When did they change the rule of the keeper not being able to pick-up a back pass? 2. Did David Seaman always have either a porn mustache or a ponytail? Thanks.

[ISiddiqui]

A1. When did they change the rule of the keeper not being able to pick-up a back pass?

A while ago. I want to say 1998, but I'm not sure.

[Critch]

2. Did David Seaman always have either a porn mustache or a ponytail? Thanks.

As far as I remember he's always had the porn-tache. The ponytail though didn't appear until fairly late in his career when he was old enough to know better.

[Cringer]

Looks like Houston wasted plenty of opportunities once again today. Atleast they got the draw on the road I guess.

[Critch]

almost a dola:

Here's a thing from the BBC website, David Seaman's career in pictures:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/photo_galleries/3394471.stm

Porn-tache is present and correct in the photo of him as a 23 year old.

[Cringer]

almost a dola:

Here's a thing from the BBC website, David Seaman's career in pictures:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/photo_galleries/3394471.stm

Porn-tache is present and correct in the photo of him as a 23 year old.

I really am glad that the short short's went away in all areas of life........

[Katon]

A while ago. I want to say 1998, but I'm not sure.

Before that, I think. I got hooked by the '94 world cup, and I'm pretty sure the rule had just changed fairly recently.

[ISiddiqui]

All I know is that its been around a long while ;).

[FrogMan]

I last refereed a soccer match in 1992 or 93 and I remember it being talked that it would a new rule, so Katon's estimate is about right to me...

FM

[RPI-Fan]

I last refereed a soccer match in 1992 or 93 and I remember it being talked that it would a new rule, so Katon's estimate is about right to me...

FM

It became a new rule right when I started playing travel soccer, around 9 years old or so. So 1994 or thereabouts.

[FrogMan]

It became a new rule right when I started playing travel soccer, around 9 years old or so. So 1994 or thereabouts.

yeah, thanks for making me feel sooooo old. When I stopped being a referee is when you started playing... sigh...

FM

[RPI-Fan]

yeah, thanks for making me feel sooooo old. When I stopped being a referee is when you started playing... sigh...

FM

And I stopped being a referee when you started lamenting about being old... :p

[MIJB#19]

A1. When did they change the rule of the keeper not being able to pick-up a back pass?1992.

[Northwood_DK]

Ronaldo reportedly turned down a recent $120 million, 10-year offer to play for the New York Red Bulls in Major League Soccer.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/soccer/specials/world_cup/2006/05/29/bc.soc.ronaldo.us.ap/index.html

[Cringer]

They expected him to retire at 29? ;)

[MIJB#19]

They expected him to retire at 29? ;)
Kinda like my first thought: "Are they crazy or something, expecting a player like Ronaldo to even concider playing in the MLS?" Then, after a good night of sleep, it makes sense. If the MLS really wants to compete with (in terms of being as good as) second tier European leagues, they have to work on trying to get other players than 35yo's or 2-caps and done international players.

[ISiddiqui]

That and it may be a PR move, indicating to European players that there is more money in the MLS than they may think.

[Cringer]

I agree with both of you ISiddiqui and MIJB, it really was a tongue in cheek statement from me. No the MLS is not a top world league, but it does have much more respect then it did 10 years ago obviously and I guess these kinds of moves are on the horizon if MLS is going to take that next step.

[Butter]

Not to harp too much, but Bobby Convey needs to be on the field for the USA in the World Cup somehow.

[Crapshoot]

I agree with both of you ISiddiqui and MIJB, it really was a tongue in cheek statement from me. No the MLS is not a top world league, but it does have much more respect then it did 10 years ago obviously and I guess these kinds of moves are on the horizon if MLS is going to take that next step.

I disagree actually - I think US soccer is helped more by investing that $120 million in young South Americans and American talent, keeping them here. The US has significant advantages over Europe for many of these talents (location, a larger melting pot with a strong South American community), and bringing them in would raise the level of the play significantly. Ronaldo would have been a publicity stunt, and I don't think it would have done well.

[Cringer]

I disagree actually - I think US soccer is helped more by investing that $120 million in young South Americans and American talent, keeping them here. The US has significant advantages over Europe for many of these talents (location, a larger melting pot with a strong South American community), and bringing them in would raise the level of the play significantly. Ronaldo would have been a publicity stunt, and I don't think it would have done well.

Hopefully this doesn't sound contradicting (of what I already said), but I agree with this too. Making sure someone like a Freddie Adu plays most of his career in the US should be a top priority, along with all the top regional talent they can get their hands on. But moves like a Ronaldo signing probably are on the horizon a bit, as a big superstar is hard to resist in any sport if a team can get a guy to come play for them. It builds excitement for fans, and brings more attention to the team/sport from those 'on the fringe' fans who all of the sudden start to here about someone who is one of the best in their sport.

[MIJB#19]

That and it may be a PR move, indicating to European players that there is more money in the MLS than they may think.It's interesting that Ronaldo didn't quite deny the rumors and said it's something to think about for the coming years, while his agent said it's stupid to think Ronaldo will ever play in the MLS.

Money is just half of the story, prestige seems to be important too. Just look at Michael Ballack's move to Chelsea, which is the place to be right now. Star players want to be where the other star players are, either on that team or in that league. The addition of a player like Ronaldo could make a bigger trend of star players moving to the USA, but right now there's a long way to go when the most familiar names are a 38yo (Djorkaeff) and a 16yo (Adu). And in the end the biggest problem for the MLS to really stand a chance is the lack of UEFA Champions' League football, as that appears to be the #1 decission for most of the players theses days.

Although, I also know from reading interviews with Dutch players, the MLS is an interesting league for players with a taste for adventure, it appears to already have reached the status just below the European big5 (Spain, Italy, England, Germany, France). two-time Dutch international Dave van den Bergh is moving from FC Utrecht to the KC Wiz in July, he'll be 'only' 30 when he's moving. I'm not sure how much of an improvement he would be for the Wizards, but I guess he should be. I honestly think he's on the talent level of an average team USA starter.

[Desnudo]

Bringing in people on big money contracts would be a huge, huge mistake. Unless there's TV money backing up such moves, it's a downward spiral financially.

[ISiddiqui]

Well the MLS just had its first TV deal with rights fees. So they apparently will have a lot more money than before.

[Desnudo]

How much though? Surely not enough to support $10 million contracts. I realize Red Bull is the one offering the cash, but I think it would set a bad standard.

[condors]

Ask the New York Cosmos how it worked out... :mad:

[ISiddiqui]

Well that's because the entire league went crazy. If they have it controlled, it could work. I don't think they expected Ronaldo to accept the offer. It was just to send a signal. I'm sure they are discussing that offer in some circles in Europe.

[Desnudo]

I agree that at some point, the salary structure will need to be looked at. Making a profit should be the priority first though.

[bulletsponge]

im curious, how much is Ronaldo paid now? and whos the highest paid soccer player? im talking playing contract not endorsments

[AlexB]

Iain Dowie resigned as manager of Crystal Palace last week due to family reasons (his sons are in the north of England, Palace are a London side) - Simon Jordan, the Palace chairman, released him from the £1m handcuff clause on compassionate grounds.

Today Iain Dowie was in a press conference being introduced as Charlton Athletic manager, another London club!

To be fair, Charlton is apparently about 7 miles further north than Crystal Palace, but Simon Jordan didn't think too much of this fact, and the press conference was interrupted by an attempt to serve a writ on Dowie issued by Jordan and Palace, citing misrepresentation in order to gain release from a binding contract!

Quality scenes, and while Jordan is a grandstander by nature, I do feel he has a point on this. His Sky Sports interview was lively to say the least :D

[Cringer]

Iain Dowie resigned as manager of Crystal Palace last week due to family reasons (his sons are in the north of England, Palace are a London side) - Simon Jordan, the Palace chairman, released him from the £1m handcuff clause on compassionate grounds.

Today Iain Dowie was in a press conference being introduced as Charlton Athletic manager, another London club!

To be fair, Charlton is apparently about 7 miles further north than Crystal Palace, but Simon Jordan didn't think too much of this fact, and the press conference was interrupted by an attempt to serve a writ on Dowie issued by Jordan and Palace, citing misrepresentation in order to gain release from a binding contract!

Quality scenes, and while Jordan is a grandstander by nature, I do feel he has a point on this. His Sky Sports interview was lively to say the least :D

He has a good point in trying to fight it I think. Seems like BS to me.

[Katon]

He has a good point in trying to fight it I think. Seems like BS to me.

Especially given that he let Dowie get away without paying a million because he thought "north" actually meant leaving the city.

In other news, it seems Chelsea have signed some Ukrainian or other (http://www.chelseafc.com/article.asp?hlid=391444&m=5&y=2006&nav=news&sub=latest+news). :D

[ISiddiqui]

30 million pounds... wow!

[Critch]

30 million pounds... wow!

If Shaun Wright-Philips is worth 22mil, then that's the bargain of the century :)

[Desnudo]

I bet Kalou is real excited to have signed now.

[Katon]

If Shaun Wright-Philips is worth 22mil, then that's the bargain of the century :)

Or Drogba, or Essien . . .

How often do you see a player at Sheva's level move when they're still near their peak? The last time I can think of was Zidane, and he went for an even higher fee. Given how inflated our transfer fees have usually wound up being, 30 million is surprisingly reasonable.

[ISiddiqui]

I bet Kalou is real excited to have signed now.

He had to know that was coming.

[ISiddiqui]

Or Drogba, or Essien . . .

How often do you see a player at Sheva's level move when they're still near their peak? The last time I can think of was Zidane, and he went for an even higher fee. Given how inflated our transfer fees have usually wound up being, 30 million is surprisingly reasonable.

You misinterpreted by 'wow'. I didn't say 'wow that was a high price'. Hell, Rooney was 25 mil when he was mostly potential.

[Katon]

You misinterpreted by 'wow'. I didn't say 'wow that was a high price'. Hell, Rooney was 25 mil when he was mostly potential.

Oops. Just so used to people saying we're overpaying (and to be fair, they're usually right).

[MIJB#19]

I bet Kalou is real excited to have signed now.
Muhahahaha. Serves mister Kalou right. I hope he'll sit out the season as the 8th stringer.

I agree with ISidiqqui, that transfer had been hanging in the air for months. This case was simple, Shevchenko's wife wanted to move to London and Milan wasn't a pain in the bottom.

Ballack and Shevchenko in, likely some over the top expensive guys out. Chelsea is turning even more into the Real Madrid of the 21st Century.

[tanglewood]

Muhahahaha. Serves mister Kalou right. I hope he'll sit out the season as the 8th stringer.

I agree with ISidiqqui, that transfer had been hanging in the air for months. This case was simple, Shevchenko's wife wanted to move to London and Milan wasn't a pain in the bottom.

Ballack and Shevchenko in, likely some over the top expensive guys out. Chelsea is turning even more into the Real Madrid of the 21st Century.

Except Real Madrid used to buy just one superstar per year.

[Katon]

Except Real Madrid used to buy just one superstar per year.

If a player at Ballack's level had been available on a free, they would've bought two.

Anyway, Ballack and Sheva are really the first superstars we've signed - at least the first stars on the level of Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo & Beckham. Robben and Cech aren't there yet, Crespo's always been just the next level down (though in any context where he isn't being compared to Sheva and Ronaldo he's a wonderful player), and Makelele's too limited to quite reach that level.

[moriarty]

Man, as a Liverpool fan this gets sort of depressing. I'm desperately hoping we sign one decent striker and so far we've sent Morientes packing for a fraction of what we paid, looks like Cisse is on the way out as well ... w/ no one coming in yet. And meanwhile Chelsea signs Ballack, Sheva, and Kalou .... ahhhhgh. I just hope they implode under their own weight ala Real Madrid.

PS - whatever happened to Chelsea trying to become profitable by 2008?

[Katon]

PS - whatever happened to Chelsea trying to become profitable by 2008?

I think that was just Peter Kenyon trying to sound impressive. The financial situation should improve by 2008 - we're already at the stage where unless a real superstar comes on the market our transfers will just be replacements for people leaving & young prospects like Kalou, so we might actually run a profit in the transfer market one of these years - but expecting an overall profit is, er, slightly optimistic.

In addition, Sheva's meant to be Roman's favorite player, so he's probably not going to worry about profitability quite as much as usual (whatever usual is) in this case.

[daedalus]

I believe someone on BigSoccer made an interesting observation that this was an Abramovich move and not a Mourinho move. That supposedly Shevchenko's wife wanted to move to England (shades of Gretzky?) and, since she is friend with Abramovich's wife, he made it happen.

A couple of ways to approach this transfer, really. For sheer talent, 30M is probably a darn good price for a striker of this magnitude. For value, it's probably not the best deal, given that he's approaching 30 already. On the other hand, for all that Chelsea generally get flacks for, if you consider spending 30M and ending up with Shevchenko and Ballack, it REALLY isn't a bad offseason nor is it bad spending.

I don't think Kalou will really suffer the same fate as Wright-Phillips as, if Chelsea really does integrate the 4-4-2 into their gameplan more as some speculate, then Kalou will likely be the 3rd striker behind the Drogba-Shevchenko with Cole, Crespo and Gudjonsson likely gone. And, even in the 4-3-3 they played before, he should be able to get spot starts as one of the outside forwards since Duff and Robben have the same durability as Kerry Wood.

As for SWP and his choice to go to Chelsea to "improve" his chance with the national team . . . HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Say hello to Aaron Lennon. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No, I'm not bitter. I have no idea why anyone would think that.

I'm curious about their central defense, however. Huth is pretty much gone, Carvalho seems about gone and Gallas wants out (and has been wanting to). I'm not sure where they go from there if or when they ever need to rest starters.

[MikeVick7]

I thought I heard on FSC yesterday that Shevchenko was Abramovich's favorite player?? I could be wrong on this.

[bulletsponge]

No, I'm not bitter. I have no idea why anyone would think that.


the laughing gave you away

[Crapshoot]

Man, as a Liverpool fan this gets sort of depressing. I'm desperately hoping we sign one decent striker and so far we've sent Morientes packing for a fraction of what we paid, looks like Cisse is on the way out as well ... w/ no one coming in yet. And meanwhile Chelsea signs Ballack, Sheva, and Kalou .... ahhhhgh. I just hope they implode under their own weight ala Real Madrid.

PS - whatever happened to Chelsea trying to become profitable by 2008?

Like you - I'm a Liverpool fan and yeah - I share your sympathies. Man, even Madrid didn't burn money the way Chelsea is doing - to put it in perspective - Chelsea has spent more this year than the rest of the premier league combined, and its not even close. Hell, I bet that's true since Roman took over. I'm starting to seriously dislike this team - almost as much as I dislike ManU. 20 million pounds for a backup right winger (SWP) ? Over 10 million for another backup striker (Kalou) ?

[Katon]

I believe someone on BigSoccer made an interesting observation that this was an Abramovich move and not a Mourinho move. That supposedly Shevchenko's wife wanted to move to England (shades of Gretzky?) and, since she is friend with Abramovich's wife, he made it happen.

I think Mourinho had some input on the decision - that is, if he'd strongly objected to Sheva then Sheva wouldn't be here. So the fact that this was one of the options was down to Jose, even if Roman decided that it was the one we'd take.

A couple of ways to approach this transfer, really. For sheer talent, 30M is probably a darn good price for a striker of this magnitude. For value, it's probably not the best deal, given that he's approaching 30 already. On the other hand, for all that Chelsea generally get flacks for, if you consider spending 30M and ending up with Shevchenko and Ballack, it REALLY isn't a bad offseason nor is it bad spending.

Yeah. He's probably about two years off actually being worth 30M on the pitch, but that's still better than most of the deals Kenyon's negotiated recently. Plus signing someone like Sheva has a noticeable impact on our brand image - not something I'd want to be the primary reason for signing someone (that way Galacticos lie), but it's a nice bonus.

I don't think Kalou will really suffer the same fate as Wright-Phillips as, if Chelsea really does integrate the 4-4-2 into their gameplan more as some speculate, then Kalou will likely be the 3rd striker behind the Drogba-Shevchenko with Cole, Crespo and Gudjonsson likely gone. And, even in the 4-3-3 they played before, he should be able to get spot starts as one of the outside forwards since Duff and Robben have the same durability as Kerry Wood.

As for SWP and his choice to go to Chelsea to "improve" his chance with the national team . . . HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Say hello to Aaron Lennon. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No, I'm not bitter. I have no idea why anyone would think that.

Whereas if he'd gone to Arsenal, he wouldn't need to play to go to the World Cup :D . Seriously, signing a fourth winger was important mostly because, as you pointed out, only an idiot would bet on Duff and Robben both being fit all season. Guess what wound up happening? The decision backfired, sure, but not for reasons anyone should've expected beforehand.

I'm curious about their central defense, however. Huth is pretty much gone, Carvalho seems about gone and Gallas wants out (and has been wanting to). I'm not sure where they go from there if or when they ever need to rest starters.

I doubt we'll sell both Gallas and Carvalho. Beyond that, I'm not sure what's happening here. I suspect we'll sign a younger player for backup to replace Huth, but no idea who.

[Butter]

I doubt we'll sell both Gallas and Carvalho. Beyond that, I'm not sure what's happening here. I suspect we'll sign a younger player for backup to replace Huth, but no idea who.

If I were betting, I would say a central defender who shines in the World Cup.

[Katon]

Like you - I'm a Liverpool fan and yeah - I share your sympathies. Man, even Madrid didn't burn money the way Chelsea is doing - to put it in perspective - Chelsea has spent more this year than the rest of the premier league combined, and its not even close. Hell, I bet that's true since Roman took over. I'm starting to seriously dislike this team - almost as much as I dislike ManU. 20 million pounds for a backup right winger (SWP) ? Over 10 million for another backup striker (Kalou) ?

Er, are you sure Kalou was 10 million? Most of the figures I've seen quoted were much lower than that.

And Kalou's signing is as much about the future as the present, so describing him as a backup doesn't really tell the whole story.

[Katon]

If I were betting, I would say a central defender who shines in the World Cup.

I hope not. That doesn't usually work very well.

[Crapshoot]

Er, are you sure Kalou was 10 million? Most of the figures I've seen quoted were much lower than that.

And Kalou's signing is as much about the future as the present, so describing him as a backup doesn't really tell the whole story.

Fair enough - I'm not sure about Kalou and that was one of the numbers I'd seen. Its just getting ridiculous, as far as I'm concerned - they can pay so much over the top that once they declare interest in a player (seriously) - they can get him. Marcotti once made the point that they can't get the great ones - citing Shevchenko as an example. So much for that.

[MIJB#19]

Andrei Shevchenko will turn 30 in late September.

For Salomon Kalou it's a big question whether he'll even get a work permit. Afterall, he's not playing for any national team yet. For publicity reasons, I don't understand why Chelsea would want another troublemaker, though. I thought Drogba and Robben were already given enough bad publicity as divers, even that migh be more due to the anti-Chelsea hype because they have money that the rest of the world doesn't have.

[Critch]

I read something earlier that put the Shevchenko into perspective. He's Abramovich's favorite player, so he used his money to get him.

Shevchenko cost 30mil pounds, Abramovich earns 37mil pounds per day. Small change to him, really :)

[Critch]

dola.....

According to Sporting Life Chelsea are trying to sign both Roberto Carlos and Ashley Cole before the start of next season. Why have one of the best leftbacks in the world when you can afford two of them?

[Katon]

dola.....

According to Sporting Life Chelsea are trying to sign both Roberto Carlos and Ashley Cole before the start of next season. Why have one of the best leftbacks in the world when you can afford two of them?

And why afford two of them when you can afford one of them and Roberto Carlos? I don't pretend to understand this.

[moriarty]

I hope not. That doesn't usually work very well.

Yeah, see Liverpool's pickups of Salif Diao, and Diouf after the last world cup. Thanks Hollier.

[Katon]

Fair enough - I'm not sure about Kalou and that was one of the numbers I'd seen. Its just getting ridiculous, as far as I'm concerned - they can pay so much over the top that once they declare interest in a player (seriously) - they can get him. Marcotti once made the point that they can't get the great ones - citing Shevchenko as an example. So much for that.

Well, once we declare interest in a player we can get him if he plays for a club that are fairly insecure financially. Or if his wife wants to move to England and makes him ask for a transfer. We've only signed four players from the really big clubs - Makelele & Geremi from Real, Ballack, and Shevchenko. Ballack was a free, so we didn't have to negotiate with Bayern, Sheva and Makelele both asked for transfers, and Geremi isn't really the type of player most people complain about.

Apart from that, we've been getting people from clubs like Athletic Bilbao, Rennes, Porto when they were having their big sale, Blackburn, West Ham, and Manchester City. World-class players are at the Milans and Madrids of the world a lot more often than they are at West Ham. The level of player we're looking at now to improve the team is generally happily settled at a club which can ignore just about any bid if it wants to and potentially match our wage offers, which means it's going to be hard to keep building the starting lineup further. It's not completely impossible - just look at Sheva - but it's not nearly as easy as most people suggest. Which is why it hasn't happened much.

[Critch]

We've only signed four players from the really big clubs - Makelele & Geremi from Real, Ballack, and Shevchenko.

Can kind of make it five now, Chelsea have paid Man Utd 12mil pounds to finally end their claim to John Obi Mikel. It'll be 16mil pounds in total as Lyn of Norway will get 4mil.

I'm not a fan of Arsenal/Man Utd/Liverpool, but I hope one of them wins the EPL next season, Chelsea are just wrecking the competition.

Ok, maybe not Liverpool. I hope they fail :)

[Katon]

Can kind of make it five now, Chelsea have paid Man Utd 12mil pounds to finally end their claim to John Obi Mikel. It'll be 16mil pounds in total as Lyn of Norway will get 4mil.

I'm not a fan of Arsenal/Man Utd/Liverpool, but I hope one of them wins the EPL next season, Chelsea are just wrecking the competition.


You mean as opposed to the time Man U won seven titles in nine years? I agree that more of a title race would be a very good thing, but England's had a lot of teams dominate for longer than we have so far without permanently harming the league.

I suppose technically you could argue Mikel makes five, but that whole mess has been so odd I'm reluctant to include it in a discussion of general Chelsea transfer policy. At least, I hope we're not going to do that again.

For 16 million, the kid had better be a seriously special player. It'd be too ironic if after all this fuss he winds up busting.

[Crapshoot]

Can kind of make it five now, Chelsea have paid Man Utd 12mil pounds to finally end their claim to John Obi Mikel. It'll be 16mil pounds in total as Lyn of Norway will get 4mil.

I'm not a fan of Arsenal/Man Utd/Liverpool, but I hope one of them wins the EPL next season, Chelsea are just wrecking the competition.

Ok, maybe not Liverpool. I hope they fail :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/5043096.stm

This is getting fucking absurd. Is there no limit to the funds of this team ? They can ManU an extra 12 million pounds for a prospect who hasn't played for a season ?

[Critch]

You mean as opposed to the time Man U won seven titles in nine years?

There's no comparison. Man Utd picked up good players for good bargain amounts (Schmeichel for 500k, Cantona for 1.2mil, Bruce for 700k, Irwin for 600k), they relied heavily on products of their own youth team (Scholes, the Nevilles, Beckham, loads of other bit players). The only expensive signing I remember that was part of the Man Utd peak was Keane for about 3.5mil.

Ferguson took years to build his team up to dynasty standard, he didn't just outspend everybody.

If there's any hope for non-Chelsea fans it's that Mourinho's transfer record is less than sparkling. Of the expensive signings you can't say Drogba for 24mil, Essien for 24mil, Carvalho for 18mil or Ferreira for 14mil were great bargains. Wright-Philips for 21mil has been disappointing, Del Horno has been poor, Jarosik failed quickly, Maniche was awful. All the players that the team is built around (Cech, Terry, Lampard, Robben, Cole, Makelele) were signed by previous managers.

[Katon]

There's no comparison. Man Utd picked up good players for good bargain amounts (Schmeichel for 500k, Cantona for 1.2mil, Bruce for 700k, Irwin for 600k), they relied heavily on products of their own youth team (Scholes, the Nevilles, Beckham, loads of other bit players). The only expensive signing I remember that was part of the Man Utd peak was Keane for about 3.5mil.

Ferguson took years to build his team up to dynasty standard, he didn't just outspend everybody.

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification, but fine (Andy Cole? Dwight Yorke?). I don't see how it's relevant to the topic at hand, though, since they were just as dominant however they were put together. No matter how much money we've spent, we still haven't dominated the league for nearly as long as that team did, so it's not at all clear that our dominance will be much worse for the league.

If you want some other examples, though, then let's try Real & Barca. Between them, they've won about two out of every three Spanish titles for the past three-quarters of a century, and yet the Primera Liga is thriving. Real's great team that won the first five(?) European Cups was based in large part on getting one of the top three players ever in a way that's actually kind of similar to how we just got Mikel. In Spain you've even got the shady financing; did Real earn the right to sell their training ground to the government and then borrow it back? We're not completely unique in the history of European football, and predictions of unprecedented doom aren't really justified by previous history.

If there's any hope for non-Chelsea fans it's that Mourinho's transfer record is less than sparkling. Of the expensive signings you can't say Drogba for 24mil, Essien for 24mil, Carvalho for 18mil or Ferreira for 14mil were great bargains. Wright-Philips for 21mil has been disappointing, Del Horno has been poor, Jarosik failed quickly, Maniche was awful. All the players that the team is built around (Cech, Terry, Lampard, Robben, Cole, Makelele) were signed by previous managers.

Jarosik and Maniche were signed to be backup midfielders. Jarosik is good enough to be cover in the Premiership; just look at how he did for Birmingham. Far from a great player, but calling him a major failure overstates what we were expecting from him. Maniche . . . well, it was worth a gamble given what he can do when he's not hopelessly overweight, and on a loan as a backup there was really not much risk. Of the bigger signings, Drogba, Carvalho and Ferreira have all been good enough to justify their presence at the club. The fees were silly, but it's not clear how much Jose deserves the blame for that as opposed to Kenyon and the general Chelsea tax. Talent judgement is certainly Jose's weak spot - he's better at motivating players and training them, much like Ferguson - but he hasn't shown any signs of committing really major blunders.

[Critch]

Chelsea starting to clear some of the deadwood. Robert Huth off to Middlesbrough for 5.5mil pounds and a 30k a week salary according to Sky TV in the UK.

[daedalus]

Isn't it kind of harsh to call Huth "deadwood"? I am under the impression that he is pretty well thought of (but have never seen him play).

[Critch]

Yeah, calling him deadwood is harsh. I was meaning more in a Chelsea clearing the boards sense than actually meaning Huth was useless.

It'll be interesting to see Huth as a full time player, not just the 5th defender who comes on late to hold a lead. He's looked big, strong, but fairly immobile so far. We'll get a better idea next season.

[moriarty]

Isn't it kind of harsh to call Huth "deadwood"? I am under the impression that he is pretty well thought of (but have never seen him play).

"Deadwood" for Chelsea = 1st String Centerback for most EPL squads.

5.5 Mil sounds a bit high though for someone Chelsea was long rumored to be getting rid of doesn't it?

[Katon]

Someone who's going to start for Germany at the World Cup?

Huth's big problem at Chelsea has been that he's the wrong type of centre-back to play for us. He's a big, strong defender whose relative weaknesses are pace and technical ability; the one thing Terry most needs in a partner is pace - which is part of why he and Gallas work so well together - so he can't get any kind of regular time without displacing Terry. He's not good enough to do that, but he's a pretty good defender, especially for a 21-year-old.

I'll be interested to see who we get in to replace him.

[moriarty]

Someone who's going to start for Germany at the World Cup? .

Not saying he's not good ... I wouldn't mind having him as a back up at Liverpool. Just seemed like Chelsea was going to get rid of him no matter what ... and outside of a bidding war (not sure if anyone else was bidding) 5.5 seemed a bit steep.

[Critch]

Someone who's going to start for Germany at the World Cup?

Is he going to start? He hasnt started any of the Germany friendlies since their disaster against Italy, and he didn't feature at all in their final friendly v Columbia at the weekend which was supposed to be the first choice team. He was an unused sub.

5.5mil pounds seems a good deal for Chelsea, but if he works out it will be a good deal for Middlesbrough too :)

[Katon]

Is he going to start? He hasnt started any of the Germany friendlies since their disaster against Italy, and he didn't feature at all in their final friendly v Columbia at the weekend which was supposed to be the first choice team. He was an unused sub.

5.5mil pounds seems a good deal for Chelsea, but if he works out it will be a good deal for Middlesbrough too :)

Oops. I need to be more careful about tossing stuff like that off. He used to start, though he doesn't seem to be in line to start at the World Cup. In any case, he's never going to be a superstar, but he's good enough to start for a lower-level Premiership team right now and he's only 21. That's the key, really; he's still young enough for age to add quite a bit onto the cost. Definitely a good deal for Chelsea, but I don't think it's horribly out of line.

[Chief Rum]

I'll be interested to see who we get in to replace him.

No offense, but I hope it's not Gooch. I don't want a terrific young American defneder to sit on the bench at Stafford Bridge when he could start for other EPL squads.

As a Boro fan, I like the Huth move, although I agree the amount seems a little high. I'm still wondering if anyone is still going to try to offer tons for Downing. I hope Boro is smart enough to keep him.

[SirFozzie]

No offense, but I hope it's not Gooch. I don't want a terrific young American defneder to sit on the bench at Stafford Bridge when he could start for other EPL squads.

As a Boro fan, I like the Huth move, although I agree the amount seems a little high. I'm still wondering if anyone is still going to try to offer tons for Downing. I hope Boro is smart enough to keep him.

Funny you say that Chief, cuz Sky Sports had it that Gooch was at Boro today for a physical prelude to a transfer.

[Katon]

No offense, but I hope it's not Gooch. I don't want a terrific young American defneder to sit on the bench at Stafford Bridge when he could start for other EPL squads.


He could start for Boro, in fact, or so the rumour goes. I suppose with Ehiogu getting old and Southgate trying to take up management, they need quite a few centre-backs.

Honestly, I think which type of player we go for depends on whether or not Gallas goes. If he stays, we probably won't need more than occasional cover, in which case I could see us going for a journeyman rather than trying to find a hot prospect. If he goes, on the other hand, signing a major talent (more likely Kompany than Gooch, if we're looking in Belgium; Gooch hasn't established himself at the same level) would make more sense.

[Chief Rum]

I hate to say it, but Ugo isn't just old and damaged. He's already been replaced in my mind by Riggott. That's too bad, because there was a time (even when Boro wasn't trying for Europe every year, but fighting off the drop) that Ugo and Southgate formed one of the better centreback pairs in the league.

I just read the rumors about Gooch to Boro as well. Wow, Gooch and Huth would be a nice pair of additions, I think.

As for Southgate, holy crap! I hadn't been watching any football news wires (outside of Cup stuff) the past few days, and I didn't realize it was a serious thought to turn the skipper into the boss. When I saw the report today at soccer.net, I nearly flipped my lid.

I love Southgate, and I know he will command respect from the squad just from being who he is, but this is a bit much. Can he really handle a position like this at this level? I hope so, but I'm not sure. I'm not so concerned about the action on the pitch, the training, or relations with players. I'm more thinking about dealing with the media, being savvy with transfers and player movement, and, if he is asked to handle this, dealing with contract issues.

[BreizhManu]

Ok so Djibril Cissé broke his leg during the friendly France-China, Giuly already said he won't replace it so it might be Anelka.

This is also a bad news for liverpool since they were about to sell him...

[moriarty]

This is also a bad news for liverpool since they were about to sell him...

Very bad, we need the cash. :mad: Besides, I just plain feel bad for the guy. Coming back from two broken legs ... well, that's potentially career ending stuff. Guy needs to drink some more milk.

[Critch]

Note - not for the squeamish, it's a photograph of Cisse from a French newspaper:

hxxp://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cisse8pn.jpg

[Critch]

Ok so Djibril Cissé broke his leg during the friendly France-China, Giuly already said he won't replace it so it might be Anelka.

It's Sidney Govou. I guess Giuly and Anelka should have kept their mouths shut.

[Critch]

If he goes, on the other hand, signing a major talent (more likely Kompany than Gooch, if we're looking in Belgium; Gooch hasn't established himself at the same level) would make more sense.

It's not going to be Kompany, he's apparently signed for Hamburg today. Hamburg moved van Buyten onto Bayern Munich for $12mil to make way for him.

edit to save a dola - Some reports that Man Utd have signed Michael Carrick from Spurs for 14mil pounds too. I love this part of the season :)

[Critch]

This is probably of interest to about two people on this board, but one of them is me so I'm going to post about it.

For anybody with the Sports Pack on DirecTV, Fox Sports en Espanol has apparently been added to the pack. This will mean even more soccer next season for your viewing delights, the main features being the Copa de Libertadores (The South American Champions League), a better choice of European Champions League games, and Mexican soccer. They might have Dutch soccer too, but I can't remember if that's them or ESPN Espanol.

The good things about the Copa de Libertadores are that it starts up again in early July to fill the post-World Cup downtime, and FSE last season broadcast them with an alternative English commentry soundtrack on the SAP button.

So I'm happy.

[SirFozzie]

what channel is FSeE?

[Critch]

616

[BreizhManu]

Daedalus must be happy, Rennes is trying to buy Cygan from Arsenal :)

[daedalus]

Is it legal with FIFA to pay Rennes to take Cygan from Arsenal?! :)

I'm probably overly harsh on the fellow. He's not THAT bad, really. I just don't think he's really up to dealing with the upper tier of the premiership and the Champion's League and the quicker forwards that can show up. And, worse, Wenger's blind faith in him. If the Cybot had been healthy, Flamini would not have been at left-back and we would have flamed out in the first few rounds of the Champion's League (resulting in Titi leaving). And more than likely, Djourou would not have been on the Swiss team.

As an aside, I thought Rennes had more talent on their squad than to try to pick up the Cybot? I thought they were an up-and-coming side with all the talent they were amassing. But, then again, Kallstorm (sp?) is leaving this year. What's going on with your team, Manu?

[BreizhManu]

Many people are leaving this season : the coach (Boloni to Monaco), Kallstrom (Lyon), Gourcuff (AC Milan), Frei (Dortmund) and Ouaddou (Olympiakos).

Arriving : Moreira (Toulouse), Br. Cheyrou (Bordeaux via Liverpool)


Kallstrom will probably be replaced by a youngster from the club (Mvuemba or M'Bia or Bourillon), Frei was replaced with Moreira and Gourcuff with Cheyrou so the only problem left is to replace Ouaddou and that is when Cygan comes into play.
The guy still has a good reputation in France and he is of the same profile as Ouaddou so he could fit in well, there also trying to Get Karim Hagui the tunisian central defender from Strasbourg.

The team still has a lot of talent but not that much in defense and I think Cygan would improve it.

[MJ4H]

Can anyone give me a link to a site that has some information on player salaries in lower leagues, such as League One in England?

[daedalus]

Many people are leaving this season : the coach (Boloni to Monaco), Kallstrom (Lyon), Gourcuff (AC Milan), Frei (Dortmund) and Ouaddou (Olympiakos).Not familiar with Ouaddou but the other three seems to be highly rated by most. That will hurt a bit. At least the replacements for Kallstrom are well thought of as well (we really need to, uhhh, go there to nab one of them if they're the defensive sort . . . my apologies).

What do you think of the replacement of Frei with Moreira?

The Cybot isn't really as bad as most Arsenal fans and I make him out to be, in my opinion. Especially if you have 1) a defensive boss to let him know where to go and 2) someone with enough speed to cover his oops.

[BreizhManu]

What do you think of the replacement of Frei with Moreira?

I think it is a great move, Frei was a typical goalscorer but was quietly replaced in the scoring duties by Utaka last season so he became expendable.

While moreira is really fast and with Utaka that would probably be the fastest pair of strikers in France, and if you add Briand, all that could make some damage.