Chicago cafe owner takes a stand against boisterous children

[ISiddiqui]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html?incamp=article_popular_1

At Center of a Clash, Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops
By JODI WILGOREN

CHICAGO, Nov. 8 - Bridget Dehl shushed her 21-month-old son, Gavin, then clapped a hand over his mouth to squelch his tiny screams amid the Sunday brunch bustle. When Gavin kept yelping "yeah, yeah, yeah," Ms. Dehl whisked him from his highchair and out the door.

Right past the sign warning the cafe's customers that "children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven," and right into a nasty spat roiling the stroller set in Chicago's changing Andersonville neighborhood.

The owner of A Taste of Heaven, Dan McCauley, said he posted the sign - at child level, with playful handprints - in the hope of quieting his tin-ceilinged cafe, where toddlers have been known to sprawl between tables and hurl themselves at display cases for sport.

But many neighborhood mothers took umbrage at the implied criticism of how they handle their children. Soon, whispers of a boycott passed among the playgroups in this North Side neighborhood, once an outpost of avant-garde artists and hip gay couples but now a hot real estate market for young professional families shunning the suburbs.

"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

Mr. McCauley, 44, said the protesting parents were "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement." In an open letter he handed out at the bakery, he warned of an "epidemic" of antisocial behavior.

"Part of parenting skills is teaching kids they behave differently in a restaurant than they do on the playground," Mr. McCauley said in an interview. "If you send out positive energy, positive energy returns to you. If you send out energy that says I'm the only one that matters, it's going to be a pretty chaotic world."

And so simmers another skirmish between the childless and the child-centered, a culture clash increasingly common in restaurants and other public spaces as a new generation of busy, older, well-off parents ferry little ones with them.

An online petition urging child-free sections in North Carolina restaurants drew hundreds of signers, including Janelle Funk, who wrote, "Whenever a hostess asks me 'smoking or non-smoking?' I respond, 'No kids!' "

At Mendo Bistro in Fort Bragg, Calif., the owners declare "Well-behaved children and parents welcome" to try to stop unmonitored youngsters from tap-dancing on the 100-year-old wood floors.

Menus at Zumbro Cafe in Minneapolis say: "We love children, especially when they're tucked into chairs and behaving," which Barbara Daenzer said she read as an invitation to cease her weekly breakfast visits after her son was born.

Even at the Full Moon in Cambridge, Mass., a cafe created for families, with a train table, a dollhouse and a plastic kitchen in a carpeted play area, there are rules about inside voices and a "No lifeguard on duty" sign to remind parents to take responsibility.

"You run the risk when you start monitoring behavior," said the Full Moon's owner, Sarah Wheaton. "You can say no cellphones to people, but you can't say your father speaks too loudly, he has to keep his voice down. And you can't really say your toddler is too loud when she's eating."

Here in Chicago, parents have denounced Toast, a popular Lincoln Park breakfast spot, as unwelcoming since a note about using inside voices appeared on the menu six months ago. The owner of John's Place, which resembles a kindergarten class at recess in early evening, established a separate "family friendly" room a year ago, only to face parental threats of lawsuits.

Many of the Andersonville mothers who are boycotting Mr. McCauley's bakery also skip story time at Women and Children First, a feminist bookstore, because of the rules: children can be kicked out for standing, talking or sipping drinks. When a retail clerk at the bookstore asked a woman to stop breast-feeding last spring, "the neighborhood set him straight real fast," said Mary Ann Smith, the area's alderwoman.

After a dozen years at one site, Mr. McCauley moved A Taste of Heaven six blocks away in May 2004, to a busy corner on Clark Street. But there, he said, teachers and writers seeking afternoon refuge were drowned out not just by children running amok but also by oblivious cellphone chatterers.

Children were climbing the cafe's poles. A couple were blithely reading the newspaper while their daughter lay on the floor blocking the line for coffee. When the family whose children were running across the room to throw themselves against the display cases left after his admonishment, Mr. McCauley recalled, the restaurant erupted in applause.

So he put up the sign. Then things really got ugly.

"The looks I would get when I went in there made me so nervous that I would try to buy the food as fast as I could and get out," said Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting A Taste of Heaven with her two children. "I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"

Ms. Miller said that one day when her son, then 4 months old, was fussing, a staff member rolled her eyes and announced for all to hear, "We've got a screamer!"

Kim Cavitt recalled having coffee and a cookie one afternoon with her boisterous 2-year-old when "someone came over and said you just need to keep her quiet or you need to leave."

"We left, and we haven't been back since," Ms. Cavitt said. "You go to a coffee shop or a bakery for a rest, to relax, and that you would have to worry the whole time about your child doing something that children do - really what they're saying is they don't welcome children, they want the child to behave like an adult."

Why suffer such scorn, the mothers said, when clerks at the Swedish Bakery, a neighborhood institution, offer children - calm or crying - free cookies? Why confront such criticism when the recently opened Sweet Occasions, a five-minute walk down Clark Street, designed the restroom aisle to accommodate double strollers and offers a child-size ice cream cone for $1.50? (At A Taste of Heaven, the smallest is $3.75.)

"It's his business; he has the right to put whatever sign he wants on the door," Ms. Miller said. "And people have the right to respond to that sign however they want."

Mr. McCauley said he had received kudos from several restaurant owners in the area, though none had followed his lead. He has certainly lost customers because of the sign, but some parents say the offense is outweighed by their addiction to the scones, and others embrace the effort at etiquette.

"The litmus test for me is if they have highchairs or not," said Ms. Dehl, the woman who scooped her screaming son from his seat during brunch, as she waited out his restlessness on a sidewalk bench. "The fact that they had one highchair, and the fact that he's the only child in the restaurant is an indication that it's an adult place, and if he's going to do his toddler thing, we should take him out and let him run around."

Mr. McCauley said he would rather go out of business than back down. He likens this one small step toward good manners to his personal effort to decrease pollution by hiring only people who live close enough to walk to work.

"I can't change the situation in Iraq, I can't change the situation in New Orleans," he said. "But I can change this little corner of the world."

Gretchen Ruethling contributed reporting for this article.
Good for him!! I know most of the parents are going to go hrumphing off somewhere else, but somewhere along the way it seems people have forgotten to teach their kids manners in public places.

[JonInMiddleGA]

From what's described here, you'll get no harrumphing from me.

The action of the owner seems wholly appropriate AFAIC, the whining from the parents quoted down the article borders on the absurd.

Worth noting, though, is the opening scene -- child behaves inappropriately & the mother removes him from the scene. My point being, not every parent has lost the ability to handle the situation.

[Huckleberry]

The only harumph you'll get from me is the fact that this article is an example of a journalist trying to create confrontation when it appears there is none.

The proprietor put up a sign and made a decision on how his business would be run. There is an example of a woman who brings her child and complies, and multiple examples of parents that have decided to take their business elsewhere. Included are examples of other restaurants in the area that cater to kids.

This is the way the market is supposed to work. So why the long story? Ridiculous.

As for teaching kids how to behave, yes it's an art that is being lost. But at the same time kids will still be louder than adults. Screaming while throwing a fit and physically obstructing other people is one thing, but two kids talking very loudly because they're having fun together isn't an issue to me. It is to this owner and his customers, so they did the right thing. I'm thankful for places that allow children more leeway because it enables me to instruct and teach without having to leave before I'm done eating. When my kid screams (rarely) or starts acting up too much, I can discipline her and then bring her back in to the restaurant so she can try again.

Places like that are what enable me to help my children get to the point where they're able to go to a restaurant like this guy's place.

[ISiddiqui]

From what's described here, you'll get no harrumphing from me.

The action of the owner seems wholly appropriate AFAIC, the whining from the parents quoted down the article borders on the absurd.

Worth noting, though, is the opening scene -- child behaves inappropriately & the mother removes him from the scene. My point being, not every parent has lost the ability to handle the situation.
Well I was talking about the harrumphing from the guy's parent clientele in the story.

[Butter]

The restaurant worker who was rolling their eyes at a 4 month old seems a tad bit over the line.

But it was especially silly to read about the person who came to the cafe to relax with toddlers in tow.... with toddlers around, there's almost never a good time to relax, unless they're buckled in a car seat or stroller... and even then you've got to be wary.

[Ragone]

It does get old to go out to eat.. movie.. etc.. and hear nothing but children acting out.. whining.. complaining.. etc.. and the parents doing nothing but a "well, he/she is just a kid" kinda shrug.. and letting them go

[Ksyrup]

Climbing poles and hurling themselves at display cases is one thing - the occasional outburst/loud speaking is another. Two year olds are not going to act like adults 100% of the time, even if the child has been raised properly.

That said, I have no problem with restaurants doing this. I don't grab my kids and take them out of a place the minute they make a noise, but if it repeats and goes beyond what I consider to be typical child behavior, then I will do so. If a restaurant owner doesn't even want that kind of parent's business, than fuck him. And if patrons expect kids to be quiet for an entire meal, they are nuts. I will go elsewhere if my business is not wanted. But if the kids are obviously crossing the line and repeatedly creating problems, I would think everyone would want the parent to do something about it - even other parents. There's a difference there that I don't think this article really brings out.

The other thing that really bothers me about this article is not just the restaurant owner's comments about the parents being "former cheerleaders and beauty queens with a sense of entitlement" - he's knee-deep in the argument and is obviously emotionally attached to his opinion - but the fact that the writer made this comment: "...a culture clash increasingly common in restaurants and other public spaces as a new generation of busy, older, well-off parents ferry little ones with them." WTF? Even misbehaving children in restaurants is a class warfare issue? The poor single mom's kids are perfect, but the accountant and his executive wife who decided to have kids in their late 30s are the ones with out of control kids? I'm not sure what the writer was trying to say there, or whether she was just parrotting the owner's comments, but that one line seemed way out of line to me.

[flere-imsaho]

Having lived in that specific area of Chicago, and frequented Taste of Heaven, I'd just like to clarify that it's not a restaurant, but a cafe/bakery. Yes, they serve some sandwiches too, but you know what I'm talking about - this isn't a sit-down restaurant.

So, the situation is not one of having kids stay still for a <1hr meal, but having kids stay still while their parent(s) drink coffee and read for a few hours in the afternoon.

[ISiddiqui]

Good point, flere. While I do like the sentiment for some restaurants (or some areas of a restaurant), this is a coffee house, where it isn't just have a meal and leave. It's usually take your coffee and go, or take your coffee and read for a while. And, of course, kids of those parents are going to get bored while the parents are perusing the paper.

[Klinglerware]

The other thing that really bothers me about this article is not just the restaurant owner's comments about the parents being "former cheerleaders and beauty queens with a sense of entitlement" - he's knee-deep in the argument and is obviously emotionally attached to his opinion - but the fact that the writer made this comment: "...a culture clash increasingly common in restaurants and other public spaces as a new generation of busy, older, well-off parents ferry little ones with them." WTF? Even misbehaving children in restaurants is a class warfare issue? The poor single mom's kids are perfect, but the accountant and his executive wife who decided to have kids in their late 30s are the ones with out of control kids? I'm not sure what the writer was trying to say there, or whether she was just parrotting the owner's comments, but that one line seemed way out of line to me.

That's a good point. It probably points to the old stereotypes that poor people are more likely to beat down and deprive their kids while rich people indulge their kids and let them run wild. So the expectation of a lot of people is that poor people will be more likely to scold or hit their kid in public, while more well to do parents are expected to be more laid back.

Obviously these stereotypes are ridiculous--you see different parenting styles in all socio-economic classes.

[albionmoonlight]

At Mrs. A and my wedding, we made sure to secure the services of her no-nonsense, kiss-my-ass-if-you-don't-like-me friend (picture JonInMiddleGA's personality in a big gay guy and you get the idea of the dude) to be the designated hard-ass usher--the "baby bouncer," if you will.

So we were up front of the church nuptiualizing, and, of course, my cousin's baby started crying. The Baby Bounder went over and told my cousin to take care of it. When the kid kept crying, he showed her the door. Awesome. Some bitching later from the small segment of the family obligated to stick up for the cousin. Much, much thanks from the happy couple and the other wedding guests who didn't want to listen to kids being bad while there was a wedding going on.

I recommend to anyone getting married--don't just use your ushers to hand out programs. Find your most no-nonsense friend and let him be your bouncer. You will thank him later if his services become necessary.

[Ksyrup]

At the two weddings we went to this summer, we stuffed our baby's face with cheerios to keep her quiet. Worked quite well.

[ISiddiqui]

At Mrs. A and my wedding, we made sure to secure the services of her no-nonsense, kiss-my-ass-if-you-don't-like-me friend (picture JonInMiddleGA's personality in a big gay guy and you get the idea of the dude) to be the designated hard-ass usher--the "baby bouncer," if you will.
Brilliant! I wonder why more people haven't thought of this... especially at a wedding where the husband and wife to be are exchanging their vows.

[Subby]

It really is beyong irritating when someone who doesn't have kids tries to tell you how to raise them or what "correct" behavior should be.

These aren't miniature adults. They are kids. They are a completely different animal - chemically imbalanced and prone to fits of freakiness. They are going to do things that young adults or childless adults are going to find "off-putting" simply because in their self-focused worlds they are rarely exposed to children.

Kids cry. They have trouble sitting still. They have no filter. People need to be a little more tolerant of kids being kids and a little less protective of their tiny little adults-only world.

That said - parents need to be just as sympathetic to those around them. If your kid is acting unreasonably, you need to discipline them or get up and leave. Use good judgement. Stop being so indulgent.

As with most things, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

[rkmsuf]

If it's worth it for this guy to mess with his business over a little noise that's his choice.

Personally the guy sounds like a big baby to me.

[Subby]

At the two weddings we went to this summer, we stuffed our baby's face with cheerios to keep her quiet. Worked quite well. At my brother's wedding, my sister didn't have anything to give her one and two year olds and they were crying during the ceremony. So she grabbed a bottle of Mountain Dew and put it in their bottles.

She was asked to remove them 5 minutes later.

[JonInMiddleGA]

(picture JonInMiddleGA's personality in a big gay guy and you get the idea of the dude)

Okay, I'm frightened by this image.

[Ksyrup]

especially at a wedding where the husband and wife to be are exchanging their vows.As opposed to a wedding where the couple gets a divorce?

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

"The looks I would get when I went in there made me so nervous that I would try to buy the food as fast as I could and get out," said Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting A Taste of Heaven with her two children. "I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"
This selfish woman is exactly why that cafe owner put the sign up. Nothing you can do about screaming kids? Sure, nothing you can do that wouldn't interrupt your good time. Heaven forbid you actuall have to deny yourself something to take care of your kids, like all the other responsible parents.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... like all the other responsible parents.

The shortage of which is pretty much why signs like this are neccessary.

Here's a funny prediction for you -- you're going to notice the lack of parental control more now than you used to.

(I think that's probably backwards of conventional wisdom, but having BTDT,
I bet it'll be the case for you guys too)

[Fonzie]

It really is beyong irritating when someone who doesn't have kids tries to tell you how to raise them or what "correct" behavior should be.

These aren't miniature adults. They are kids. They are a completely different animal - chemically imbalanced and prone to fits of freakiness. They are going to do things that young adults or childless adults are going to find "off-putting" simply because in their self-focused worlds they are rarely exposed to children.

Kids cry. They have trouble sitting still. They have no filter. People need to be a little more tolerant of kids being kids and a little less protective of their tiny little adults-only world.

That said - parents need to be just as sympathetic to those around them. If your kid is acting unreasonably, you need to discipline them or get up and leave. Use good judgement. Stop being so indulgent.

As with most things, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Hey! You just stole what I was going to post.

I'm telling.

[gstelmack]

Yup, there are two bits here. There are family-friendly places to take your kid, and there are quiet places to go if you don't want to be around loud kids. And there should be. If the business owner doesn't want loud kids there because he wants to create a nice, relaxed atmosphere for his other clients, that's his business. It also leaves an opening for someone else to create a coffee house that caters to the kids.

One thing I love about the area around here: almost all businesses have some sort of a small play area set up for the kids. The community is FULL of families, so the businesses cater to them. Even if it is just a few kids books or a stack of legos, there's usually SOMETHING to help entertain the kids. That helps tremendously in keeping the kids occupied.

[rkmsuf]

Here's another interesting thought. Perhaps if you have kids you don't need to be sitting in a f-cking bakery with them for hours if that is what is going on.

[Subby]

Here's another interesting thought. Perhaps if you have kids you don't need to be sitting in a f-cking bakery with them for hours if that is what is going on. Yeah - if I take my kids to Starbucks and sit down with them, we have a 15-minute window, tops, before I have to hightail it out of there.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Here's a funny prediction for you -- you're going to notice the lack of parental control more now than you used to
I was just thinking that. I was just thinking about all the kids I enjoy being around (which is not many, never really liked kids). Those kids have parents that I consider to be good parents. The kids that I couldn't stand had parents that were too selfish and involved with themselves to be concerned about their kids (my sister comes to mind here).

[Fonzie]

Here's another interesting thought. Perhaps if you have kids you don't need to be sitting in a f-cking bakery with them for hours if that is what is going on.
People who do that are morons and deserve all the grief that they get from the owner or other patrons.

I cannot imagine taking my 2 year-old to a bakery for multiple hours. That would be torturous for him, me, and every customer there. I can see taking him there for a 15-30 minute snack or somesuch, but toddlers are simply not built to sit still. They've gotta move, and common decency dictates that that's best done at home/outside/playgrounds etc. and not in a bakery.

[Coffee Warlord]

Here's another interesting thought. Perhaps if you have kids you don't need to be sitting in a f-cking bakery with them for hours if that is what is going on.

No shit. Now, I'm no parent yet, but Eating With Young CW involved a very simple dogma: Eat And Go. No sitting around and yapping for hours after dinner, Eat And Go.

My folks would have had zero tolerance for me running around yellling like I see nowadays. Woulda packed up and left right there had I stirred up shit.

Eat. Go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Here's another interesting thought. Perhaps if you have kids you don't need to be sitting in a f-cking bakery with them for hours if that is what is going on.

I know this isn't your point, but it seems like as good a place as any to throw it in here.

Out to dinner last night, nothing fancy, just your standard meat-and-three kind of place. I notice my wife watching ... something ... intently behind me. I get shifted around a little so I can see what has her attention drawn & then I get it.

There's this cute little girl, maybe 5-6 years old. She appears to be taking part in some sort of formal ball with some of her imaginary friends (i.e. dancing, curtsies, etc). Not a sound, not a peep, just off in her own little world & the place is slow enough that she's not anywhere near anyone else's table or anything.

Disturbing part was that this went on for 30 minutes or more, and not once did any of the half dozen adults at the table so much as acknowledge she was even there. (That's what my wife was watching so intently, not the little girl but the oblivious self-absorbed adults). Not a word, not so much as a glance as far as we saw. The child wasn't bothering anybody, it was just very sad to see the whole scene.

[rkmsuf]

I know this isn't your point, but it seems like as good a place as any to throw it in here.

Out to dinner last night, nothing fancy, just your standard meat-and-three kind of place. I notice my wife watching ... something ... intently behind me. I get shifted around a little so I can see what has her attention drawn & then I get it.

There's this cute little girl, maybe 5-6 years old. She appears to be taking part in some sort of formal ball with some of her imaginary friends (i.e. dancing, curtsies, etc). Not a sound, not a peep, just off in her own little world & the place is slow enough that she's not anywhere near anyone else's table or anything.

Disturbing part was that this went on for 30 minutes or more, and not once did any of the half dozen adults at the table so much as acknowledge she was even there. (That's what my wife was watching so intently, not the little girl but the oblivious self-absorbed adults). Not a word, not so much as a glance as far as we saw. The child wasn't bothering anybody, it was just very sad to see the whole scene.


That's kind of sad. I hate people who don't treat their kids like people and don't talk to them like they'd talk to anyone else. It's more important to talk to the kids than adults for crying out loud.

[Mustang]

It really is beyong irritating when someone who doesn't have kids tries to tell you how to raise them or what "correct" behavior should be.

These aren't miniature adults. They are kids. They are a completely different animal - chemically imbalanced and prone to fits of freakiness.

That said - parents need to be just as sympathetic to those around them. If your kid is acting unreasonably, you need to discipline them or get up and leave. Use good judgement. Stop being so indulgent.



Do you want to clarify what you mean by your first statement? I don't have kids and I think it is beyond irrating when people who do have kids make this statement.

Yes, I'm well aware of some of the behaviors of children are normal. I'm not talking about the crying or fussing or things of that nature. If a child is crying, I sure am not going to go over to the parent and make any parenting comments (These are the cases you probably are referring too..)

But, if you are including any case, I'm sorry, I think I can make comments and think a parent is lacking common sense. You don't let your children run full ass throughout a store, you don't let your children take a restaurant tray and go table to table banging on each table while people eat (ultimately knocking over someone's soda), you don't let your child go up to someone and kick them in the shin. Do these things just happen with kids.. of course but, in each of those cases the parent did absolutely nothing to either correct their child or take any action whatsoever... I'm sorry but, kids or no kids someone can make comments when in those situations...

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's kind of sad. I hate people who don't treat their kids like people and don't talk to them like they'd talk to anyone else. It's more important to talk to the kids than adults for crying out loud.

I probably serve as an example of going to the other extreme. I pretty much talk to babies like adults, I figure they'll catch up sooner or later ;)
(and they seem to understand normal-speak as well as baby-talk anyway)

[rkmsuf]

Do you want to clarify what you mean by your first statement? I don't have kids and I think it is beyond irrating when people who do have kids make this statement.

Yes, I'm well aware of some of the behaviors of children are normal. I'm not talking about the crying or fussing or things of that nature. If a child is crying, I sure am not going to go over to the parent and make any parenting comments (These are the cases you probably are referring too..)

But, if you are including any case, I'm sorry, I think I can make comments and think a parent is lacking common sense. You don't let your children run full ass throughout a store, you don't let your children take a restaurant tray and go table to table banging on each table while people eat (ultimately knocking over someone's soda), you don't let your child go up to someone and kick them in the shin. Do these things just happen with kids.. of course but, in each of those cases the parent did absolutely nothing to either correct their child or take any action whatsoever... I'm sorry but, kids or no kids someone can make comments when in those situations...




HAHA, you got kicked in the shin by a toddler!

pwned

[rkmsuf]

I probably serve as an example of going to the other extreme. I pretty much talk to babies like adults, I figure they'll catch up sooner or later ;)
(and they seem to understand normal-speak as well as baby-talk anyway)

That's what I meant as well. I never, never engaged in baby talk. Makes me sick. People don't talk like that so why would I talk to my kid like that. Nausiating.

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, I'm well aware of some of the behaviors of children are normal. I'm not talking about the crying or fussing or things of that nature. If a child is crying, I sure am not going to go over to the parent and make any parenting comments (These are the cases you probably are referring too..)
On that subject, I REALLY hate when a kid is crying and the parent just doesn't care. The parent acts like, he'll cry it out. It isn't just unfair to the kid, but also to the other patrons in the establishment.

[Mustang]

HAHA, you got kicked in the shin by a toddler!

pwned

*L*

Actually, my friend's daughter.. they started her in Tai Kwan Do. (or however you spell it) and she has this desire to show new kicks off.

Wanting to show new things = Good.. interesting.

Showing them on me = Ahh.. not good.

She also finds it extremely entertaining to knock her Dad in the bean bag..

[Klinglerware]

I probably serve as an example of going to the other extreme. I pretty much talk to babies like adults, I figure they'll catch up sooner or later ;)
(and they seem to understand normal-speak as well as baby-talk anyway)

Agreed. Most kids can tell if you are being patronizing. I always talk to kids as though they are normal human beings--they do have some capacity for normal conversation, certainly more than some adults I know...

[wade moore]

HAHA, you got kicked in the shin by a toddler!

pwned
I don't laugh out loud at message boards too much, but this one got me...

[Subby]

Do you want to clarify what you mean by your first statement? I don't have kids and I think it is beyond irrating when people who do have kids make this statement. I don't know how to make it any more clear. People who don't have kids have no idea how hard raising kids is. None. Having to listen to someone who doesn't have kids prattle on about what is and isn't proper behavior is annoying. It doesn't even matter if they are right or wrong. Or if their reasoning is grounded in "common sense". I don't know how else to explain it. I don't think it is possible to "get it" until you actually have a kid or two or nine.

[Glengoyne]

Okay, I'm frightened by this image.
I figured he was actually talking about you.http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[ISiddiqui]

I don't know how to make it any more clear. People who don't have kids have no idea how hard raising kids is. None. Having to listen to someone who doesn't have kids prattle on about what is and isn't proper behavior is annoying. It doesn't even matter if they are right or wrong. Or if their reasoning is grounded in "common sense". I don't know how else to explain it. I don't think it is possible to "get it" until you actually have a kid or two or nine.
This reasoning sounds supiciously similar to feminists saying that men can't have an opinion on abortion because they don't "get it" because they aren't a woman.

[VPI97]

It really is beyong irritating when someone who doesn't have kids tries to tell you how to raise them or what "correct" behavior should be.

These aren't miniature adults. They are kids. They are a completely different animal - chemically imbalanced and prone to fits of freakiness. They are going to do things that young adults or childless adults are going to find "off-putting" simply because in their self-focused worlds they are rarely exposed to children.

Kids cry. They have trouble sitting still. They have no filter. People need to be a little more tolerant of kids being kids and a little less protective of their tiny little adults-only world.

That said - parents need to be just as sympathetic to those around them. If your kid is acting unreasonably, you need to discipline them or get up and leave. Use good judgement. Stop being so indulgent.

As with most things, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.I agree 100%.

[Glengoyne]

Hey just so this is an on topic post. Once while I was in a Minneapolis restaurant, Chris Carter's kid went running down the aisle, and slammed right into me as I was returning to my table. Chris was very apologetic as he came promptly came over and scooped the little kid up, scolding him.

I call him Chris, ya know cause we talked. I said something along the lines of "No Trouble".

Should I change my board name?

[Crapshoot]

This question comes down fundementally to your perspective of a societal approach, where we treat the kids as part of a larger family and are more forgiving of their "sins", or an individualist approach, where the kids are the parent's responsibility, and nothing more. I think most people moderate in between the two, but clearly some are on either extreme.

[Huckleberry]

Hey just so this is an on topic post. Once while I was in a Minneapolis restaurant, Chris Carter's kid went running down the aisle, and slammed right into me as I was returning to my table. Chris was very apologetic as he came promptly came over and scooped the little kid up, scolding him.

I call him Chris, ya know cause we talked. I said something along the lines of "No Trouble".

Should I change my board name?
Based on your post I think you should change it so we can mock you for misspelling your own board name. :p

[Mustang]

I don't know how to make it any more clear. People who don't have kids have no idea how hard raising kids is. None. Having to listen to someone who doesn't have kids prattle on about what is and isn't proper behavior is annoying. It doesn't even matter if they are right or wrong. Or if their reasoning is grounded in "common sense". I don't know how else to explain it. I don't think it is possible to "get it" until you actually have a kid or two or nine.

Uh.. I think I know exactly how hard raising kids are thank you. That is why I don't have any at this point of my life.

I'm sorry but, some of the things I've seen parents allow their children to do is not proper behavior. And, I don't blame the kids.. kids are kids.. they will do their thing but, there are a whole lot of basic parenting skills that are lacking in some parents.

[Mustang]

Hey just so this is an on topic post. Once while I was in a Minneapolis restaurant, Chris Carter's kid went running down the aisle, and slammed right into me as I was returning to my table. Chris was very apologetic as he came promptly came over and scooped the little kid up, scolding him.

This is the kind of thing I'm referring to. You don't need kids to realize this is something kids will do (go running around) but, in alot of settings this isn't appropriate.

[Subby]

This reasoning sounds supiciously similar to feminists saying that men can't have an opinion on abortion because they don't "get it" because they aren't a woman. Well, that argument discounts a lot of things, including the fact that the man has a biological tie to the child and would be partly responsible for the kid's well-being after he is born.

Childless adults aren't raising a child 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so they really have no idea. They rely on the tiny little snippets they see of children behaving to shape and form their opinions about children and how they should act. Small sample sizes and all that. So, like I said - right or wrong, unless someone has been in the trenches...please save it.

[Subby]

Uh.. I think I know exactly how hard raising kids are thank you. That is why I don't have any at this point of my life. I always laugh when people say this. Get back to me when you have kids.

You have no idea.

[Mustang]

I always laugh when people say this. Get back to me when you have kids.

You have no idea.



You keep saying about how people have no idea. How, under any circumstances, is it ok for the average child to run around a store, running into people and pulling things off the shelves while the adult stands around doing nothing?



edit for blunt wording.. *L*

[Subby]

ehh

I am being too prickly about this. My apologies. You and anyone else are certainly welcome to your opinion on kids. Just understand that it is hard for parents to have to listen to folks proselytize on child-rearing when they aren't faced with the same struggles. Kind of like the whole arm-chair qb phenomenon. :)

[Mustang]

ehh

I am being too prickly about this. My apologies.

*L*

Look, I know what you are trying to say.. believe me.. kids or no kids In my life, I've still been around enough to know when someone is trying to force their ways on you or drop stupid comments (parenting or otherwise).

I'm only noting some parents seem to blow off some unacceptable behavior (items like I've noted) as just 'kids being kids'..

[Solecismic]

We still haven't taken our child to a restaurant together. No point. He won't enjoy it, and he'll never sit still for that long unless they have a truck video playing. You don't put small children in situations where you know they will fail. Why bother everyone else?

If my wife and I feel the need to dine out at a nice restaurant, we'll find a babysitter. There are a lot of things you give up when you have a small child. That's life. Plenty of time to catch up later.

And there are plenty of restaurants where noisy children are welcome. My wife sometimes takes the kid - that's just too much for me to handle.

[Passacaglia]

Well, I've never been to A Taste of Heaven, but I've been to another place mentioned in the article -- Toast in Lincoln Park. Right by my place. Although, while I'm totally fine with these signs, I'd have to say that in that area, the college kids and trixies are much more annoying than the kids.

[sterlingice]

(picture JonInMiddleGA's personality in a big gay guy and you get the idea of the dude)
I would pay to see this :D

SI

[sterlingice]

Never thought I'd side with the hippie and his "positive energy" but here I am. I thought his "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement" quote was way out of line until I read what some of the moms were saying. Jeez: "waaah! I have a right to my coffee and relaxation" or "Kids scream and there's nothing you can do about it".

As for the argument that "someone who doesn't have kids shouldn't be telling you how to raise them", he's not, he's just saying get the eff out of my business if you can't keep them quiet and comments to the contrary are telling him how to run his business yet are strangely lacking a quote of "if you don't have a business, then you have no place telling me how to run mine". It's much more a "it's my business and I'll do as I please and if you don't like it, go elsewhere".

SI

[gstelmack]

We still haven't taken our child to a restaurant together. No point. He won't enjoy it, and he'll never sit still for that long unless they have a truck video playing. You don't put small children in situations where you know they will fail. Why bother everyone else?
My almost-3-year-old LOVES going out, and has since she was 6 months old or so. Of course, she loves to eat, and takes longer than my wife or I to eat, so she stays pretty busy and entertained. She also enjoys watching other people; her favorite pasttime until about 6 months ago was to look around smiling at people, just trying to get someone to smile back.

Now, we don't take her to NICE places either. Golden Corral is a personal favorite of hers, Chili's, Olive Garden, Macaroni Grill, Carraba's, Perkins, etc. All family-friendly places. We'd never dream of taking her to, say, Ruth's Criss or something like that.

[rkmsuf]

My almost-3-year-old LOVES going out, and has since she was 6 months old or so. Of course, she loves to eat, and takes longer than my wife or I to eat, so she stays pretty busy and entertained. She also enjoys watching other people; her favorite pasttime until about 6 months ago was to look around smiling at people, just trying to get someone to smile back.

Now, we don't take her to NICE places either. Golden Corral is a personal favorite of hers, Chili's, Olive Garden, Macaroni Grill, Carraba's, Perkins, etc. All family-friendly places. We'd never dream of taking her to, say, Ruth's Criss or something like that.

the key is going early on like you did at 6 months so the kids are used to being in public places such as restaurants.

[Ksyrup]

Golden Corral is a personal favorite of hers.
Same here. At least 3 times a month.

[vex]

ehh

I am being too prickly about this. My apologies. You and anyone else are certainly welcome to your opinion on kids. Just understand that it is hard for parents to have to listen to folks proselytize on child-rearing when they aren't faced with the same struggles. Kind of like the whole arm-chair qb phenomenon. :)
So when did religion enter this topic? ;)

[Glengoyne]

Based on your post I think you should change it so we can mock you for misspelling your own board name. :p
Damn, Cris Carter. Nice catch actually. I mean I know that, but apparently not well enough for my inline spell checker to throw up a flag. Maybe its that I really don't care, I mean all he did was catch touchdowns.


Randall Cunningham and Jake Reed were there too, maybe I could use their name instead of Chris.

[sabotai]

This article reminded me of a time when em and my girlfriend at the time (back when I was in college....many years ago...*sigh*) went to a diner to get something to eat. There were this group of people at a table some tables over (to the side). And then next to them there was a table full of kids. Didn't take more than a second to realize that the table of adults were the parents, and the table of kids were their children.

And right away I see that the kids are going to be quite loud. They already were. (THey were in a booth). They were standing on the seats, jumping up and down, just going nuts. And not once did any of the parents turn and tell them to stop or to quiet down. Not one time.

This also reminded me of the several times I've gone to my brother's for some holiday or a birthday. My sister-in-law's family would be there and such. About a dozen kids. All but 2 are complete monsters. And, of course, their parents pay no attention to them. At all. Ever. Yeah, I don't have kids, blah, blah, blah. But it really doesn't take insightful knowledge to sepereate the good parents from the really bad ones.

I'm not going to say "you have to do this" or "you need to do that", but if everytime I see you, your kid is acting like a wild animal and I never see you pay any attention to your kids, except to scream at them while even sometimes calling them a "bitch", I think I can make the judgement call that you're a terrible mother or father.

As for the two kids who do not act like animals, they are at the same age (as the rest of the kids, relatively) and are perfect angels. Two very sweet girls. At every get together, I see their mom and dad talking to them and otherwise paying attention to them. When the kids come up to them to say something, they always, at the least act interested, and talk to them. They sit and eat with their kids The rest of them just say "Ok, fine. Now go fuckin' play" like it's a huge inconvience to them..

I may not have kids, but I think I can at least say they are not good parents based on what I've seen of them.

[DanGarion]

No shit. Now, I'm no parent yet, but Eating With Young CW involved a very simple dogma: Eat And Go. No sitting around and yapping for hours after dinner, Eat And Go.

My folks would have had zero tolerance for me running around yellling like I see nowadays. Woulda packed up and left right there had I stirred up shit.

Eat. Go.
Exactly. If I was running around and making lots of noise I would have been slapped across the face, if I continued to misbehave my dad would have taken me outside and gave me a spanking. This is exactly what I will do with my child when I have them. I never ran around places and screamed at the top of my lungs like I see many children do today. I feel parenting and controlling of ones children has become terrible in the last 20 years. Part of it has to do with all this PC crap and all this no spanking crap that people think how they should bring up their children. I didn't fear the spanking or a whoopin but what I did fear was thinking I was going to get spanked or whooped.

Edit for more.

And these parents that bitch saying "you don't know what it's like", and "it's not easy to control 3 kids". Well you should of that about that before you have three kids. Having children brings on a lot of responsibility and if you can't take the heat for having them then you shouldn't have the privaledge of getting your own little mini-me.

[SackAttack]

Just understand that it is hard for parents to have to listen to folks proselytize on child-rearing when they aren't faced with the same struggles. Kind of like the whole arm-chair qb phenomenon. :)

Most of the time, I can buy this.

But when it comes to telling your kid to sit down and shut up (however your particular brand of parenting approaches this), c'mon.

Anybody with two eyes can tell when a kid is being a brat and when a parent isn't doing a damn thing to control the behavior. How "hard" parenting is has exactly squat to do with whether or not those parents are fulfilling their responsibility to society in instructing those children on how to behave.

How you handle, say, a child being violent to another individual? That's one thing. Everybody's going to have a different approach to the violence issue with their kids, and that's fine. As you say, easier to say than to do.

But "settle down and be quiet. This isn't the place for that kind of behavior."

What's hard about that?

If they continue the behavior, you take them home. As others have said, you make sacrifices when you choose to raise kids. One of those sacrifices is that you are responsible for their behavior and for their misbehavior, and if they aren't capable of displaying self-control within a particular environment, you do not have the right to ruin the experience for 30 other people just because you want your double mocha grande.

Not taking aim at you personally, Subby.

Just at the "you don't have kids so you can't know" mantra that seems to come - not from you specifically, but in general - from one direction or another every time the topic of child behavior comes up (either here or in "The Real World"). I applaud the café owner here.

I think parents should be the first line of defense in ensuring that kids are well-behaved in public, but if they can't or won't do the job, I have no problem with private business telling them to get the hell out.

It's maybe the only topic that comes to mind on which I'm in vehement agreement with JiMGA.

And it makes me ill to say that.

[DaddyTorgo]

i agree with Subby. As someone managing in retail I have come to expect a certain level of "kids being kids." It's fine when kids are loud. What is NOT fine is when kids are endangering themselves/other customers in my store. And that is MY legal responsibility if that kid say...runs into a display case and falls over and hurts themselves. I'm liable for that. So it's within my rights then to tell the parents to control their kids in that instance. Or if the kids are lying on the floor and causing other customers to run the risk of tripping over them, then ditto. Kids can be kids sure, but there is acceptable behavior and then unacceptable behavior. And if parents allow their children to be doing unacceptable behavior in a place where the legal repercussions are someone else's, then that person has the right to ensure that the legal repercussions are minimized.

[Subby]

Exactly. If I was running around and making lots of noise I would have been slapped across the face, if I continued to misbehave my dad would have taken me outside and gave me a spanking. This is exactly what I will do with my child when I have them. I never ran around places and screamed at the top of my lungs like I see many children do today. I feel parenting and controlling of ones children has become terrible in the last 20 years. Part of it has to do with all this PC crap and all this no spanking crap that people think how they should bring up their children. I didn't fear the spanking or a whoopin but what I did fear was thinking I was going to get spanked or whooped.

Edit for more.

And these parents that bitch saying "you don't know what it's like", and "it's not easy to control 3 kids". Well you should of that about that before you have three kids. Having children brings on a lot of responsibility and if you can't take the heat for having them then you shouldn't have the privaledge of getting your own little mini-me. No, hitting your kids is not the best way to show them the difference between right and wrong. I have news for you - spanking your children for misbehaving just makes them more prone to act out violently.

I am not saying that corporal punishment shouldn't ever be used. If my kid tries to run into a busy street or tries to grab a boiling pot of water off of the stove, then swift retribution helps get the point across.

Using violence to keep your kids in line might work in the short term, but it is a long term failure in a multitude of ways.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned - it's a perfect example of someone who knows jackshit about what it's like raising kids trying to dispense advice to those who do. I'll just say this...all kids are hard to control unless you have them heavily medicated. They are little people who look for every opportunity to exert control over their lives. Any parent will tell you that raising kids is a constant struggle of wills.

[Subby]

dola

Sack - I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying there, trust me. I don't want to be an apologist for shoddy parenting here. I just think we all need to be a little more tolerant of each other and of kids. I mean...they are freaky little aliens and impervious to reason. :)

[Rockstar]

I am a parent of four young kids (9-2 yrs old.). I can tell ANYONE right off of the bat that kids dont act like adults. That said, Parents just need to get their heads out of their ass. Even if it required a vice and tow truck. Dont take your kids somewhere that is designated for adults. If that means that you dont eat out for a decade, then thats the way if fucking is. I have met the former cheerleaders and beauty pagent moms and they are no where near as bad as the dads who turn their attention to a cell phone while their kid raises hell. Establishments dont really want your business. The other patrons dont want to listen to our kids screaming and crying. Show some backbone and social skills and keep your kids out of places that are not designated for kids. Do you really think that the child will enjoy being at a bagel shop more then a Chucky Cheese? Follow others leads and get a babysitter if you want a nice meal out.
My kids and I go out to eat about once a month. Its a real treat and each child knows that if they want to go out more, then they behave. I leave BIG tips.
Spanking doesnt work. It just doesnt. But if thats what you choose to do, then thats your choice and good luck to you.
Anyone that is sitting around people with kids has every right to weigh in on how parents should discipline their children. If you disagree, then dont listen. Even tell them to fuck off. But dont try to ruin someone elses quite relaxing meal because you WONT keep your offspring out of places that are not "kids places".

[DanGarion]

No, hitting your kids is not the best way to show them the difference between right and wrong. I have news for you - spanking your children for misbehaving just makes them more prone to act out violently.

I am not saying that corporal punishment shouldn't ever be used. If my kid tries to run into a busy street or tries to grab a boiling pot of water off of the stove, then swift retribution helps get the point across.

Using violence to keep your kids in line might work in the short term, but it is a long term failure in a multitude of ways.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned - it's a perfect example of someone who knows jackshit about what it's like raising kids trying to dispense advice to those who do. I'll just say this...all kids are hard to control unless you have them heavily medicated. They are little people who look for every opportunity to exert control over their lives. Any parent will tell you that raising kids is a constant struggle of wills.

I call bullshit on just about everything you said. I'm not violent. I'm not saying hit the kids ass till it bleeds, I'm saying make them remember what is right and wrong. I wasn't heavily medicated, and I was not hard to control when I was a child. I've asked my mom and I was a good kid, my parents kept me in check. Did I get in trouble? Yes, but for little things like breaking something of my sisters, not doing chores, or for riding my bike past the set boundries my parents set. But when my parents told me to go to my room and I talked back I got slapped or spanked and I learned what was right and wrong.

This is another thing wrong with AMERICA today. "all kids are hard to control unless you have them heavily medicated". Everyone wants to medicate and not take the responsibility to care for and correct. Solutions are not in a pill, they are in proper upbring.

Children have to be taught, that there are boundries and that if those boundries are crossed there are reprecussions. This is a basic fact of life. Unfortuantely too many parents set boundries by drawing a line in the sand and when that line is crossed they draw a new one. We've all seen what happens when we do that, take a look at Hitler in WWII.

[Passacaglia]

It's probably hard to keep kids under control in a society that lets kids run wild. They pick it up 'on the street' -- I'd think.

[DanGarion]

It's probably hard to keep kids under control in a society that lets kids run wild. They pick it up 'on the street' -- I'd think.
Yeah, I mean look at those damn kids in France!

[Passacaglia]

I'm just sayin'. When you send your kids to a school that has kids where other parents don't control their kids, they're probably more likely to misbehave. Back when we were all kids, more parents controlled their kids. It's a snowball effect.

[Subby]

I call bullshit on just about everything you said. I am just speaking from experience. Sorry if that upsets you, but I stand by my statement that when you teach your children to resolve conflict through violence you are doing them and yourself a disservice.

I never said not to discipline your kids. I am a firm believer in discipline. Hitting kids is usually just an adult acting out in frustration, however. Its a cycle - that adult was taught as a child to resolve conflict through violence and they are just doing what they know.

[Subby]

I am a parent of four young kids (9-2 yrs old.). I can tell ANYONE right off of the bat that kids dont act like adults. That said, Parents just need to get their heads out of their ass. Even if it required a vice and tow truck. Dont take your kids somewhere that is designated for adults. If that means that you dont eat out for a decade, then thats the way if fucking is. I have met the former cheerleaders and beauty pagent moms and they are no where near as bad as the dads who turn their attention to a cell phone while their kid raises hell. Establishments dont really want your business. The other patrons dont want to listen to our kids screaming and crying. Show some backbone and social skills and keep your kids out of places that are not designated for kids. Do you really think that the child will enjoy being at a bagel shop more then a Chucky Cheese? Follow others leads and get a babysitter if you want a nice meal out.
My kids and I go out to eat about once a month. Its a real treat and each child knows that if they want to go out more, then they behave. I leave BIG tips.
Spanking doesnt work. It just doesnt. But if thats what you choose to do, then thats your choice and good luck to you.
Anyone that is sitting around people with kids has every right to weigh in on how parents should discipline their children. If you disagree, then dont listen. Even tell them to fuck off. But dont try to ruin someone elses quite relaxing meal because you WONT keep your offspring out of places that are not "kids places". Yeah, I am going to stop posting because I think you might be my parallel universe twin. :D

[Huckleberry]

Sad that somone already knows they won't be able to outsmart their kid, or think at a higher level than their kid, so they're already planning on hitting them.

I can't imagine being outfoxed by a 3 year old.

[sterlingice]

Sad that somone already knows they won't be able to outsmart their kid, or think at a higher level than their kid, so they're already planning on hitting them.

I can't imagine being outfoxed by a 3 year old.
Sad that someone already knows they can't come up with a cogent argument to outsmart someone online, or think at a higher level than another poster, so they rely on childish insults.

I can't imagine how you would outfox this type of poster. http://dynamic.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

SI

[Raven]

"We left, and we haven't been back since," Ms. Cavitt said. "You go to a coffee shop or a bakery for a rest, to relax, and that you would have to worry the whole time about your child doing something that children do - really what they're saying is they don't welcome children, they want the child to behave like an adult."


The irony of this p.o.v. is that these parents want to have a good time at the expense of everyone else in the place.

[sterlingice]

The irony of this p.o.v. is that these parents want to have a good time at the expense of everyone else in the place.
Yes, that's pretty much the crux of that argument- "we want time off of our kids" which basically means "we want everyone else to put up with our kids" but they never quite see that side.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'll just say this...all kids are hard to control unless you have them heavily medicated. ...Any parent will tell you that raising kids is a constant struggle of wills.

I agree with the second part, disagree pretty significantly with the first part.

And that's from an Aries (read as: strong-willed) father raising an Aries (read as: strong-willed) son.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dont take your kids somewhere that is designated for adults.

Far too blanket a statement AFAIC. Easy enough for me to say perhaps, since my child generally ly behaves at least as well as I do, sometimes better.

He has, in 7.5 years, had exactly onemeltdown in a restaurant & that was around age 3. (we didn't have Terrible Two's, but the first part of Three was challenging). Less than 60 seconds into it, I took him straight out the door & we had ... let's call it a "little chat" ... the kind where I did all the talking, after I lit his ass up enough to capture his undivided attention.

Since that night, no matter the restaurant, no matter the situation, not a problem. And that's a kid who eats out at least 4 nights a week 52 weeks a year. McDonald's to trendy sushi bar to $100/person venues, no matter - consistent behavior. And dining out is extremely high on his list of things to do, it's as much "entertainment" for our family as "nourishment".

I can't say that he's all that enamored with bagel shops but as for the Chuck E. Cheese thing (aka "proof that Hell is a real place"), he enjoys it quite well on the few occasions we've taken him, but when the meal is 100% his choice (birthdays, for example, although he gets to pick far more often than that) he consistently picks high(er) end stuff, particularly places in the heart of a large downtown area -- for him, video games/ whack-a-mole/etc. doesn't come close to competing with the whole "bright lights, big city" thing.

The "backbone" that's required is to teach the child what behavior is acceptable & what behavior isn't, and then to enforce those boundaries.

[Chubby]

It really is beyong irritating when someone who doesn't have kids tries to tell you how to raise them or what "correct" behavior should be.

These aren't miniature adults. They are kids. They are a completely different animal - chemically imbalanced and prone to fits of freakiness. They are going to do things that young adults or childless adults are going to find "off-putting" simply because in their self-focused worlds they are rarely exposed to children.

Kids cry. They have trouble sitting still. They have no filter. People need to be a little more tolerant of kids being kids and a little less protective of their tiny little adults-only world.

That said - parents need to be just as sympathetic to those around them. If your kid is acting unreasonably, you need to discipline them or get up and leave. Use good judgement. Stop being so indulgent.

As with most things, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Just because your kids are the center of your universe does not mean they need to be at the center of mine.

I don't need kids to be able to recognize bad parenting and I don't think anyone is blaming the kids themselves. After 12 years in retail I can certainly say dumping your spastic kids off in the video department because you don't want to watch them is bad parenting. Letting your kid run up and down aisles unchecked is bad parenting. Letting your kid have prolonged (not just 1 minute) loud outbursts at a restaurant is bad parenting. No one is saying that raising kids isn't hard, of course it is. What people are saying is that there are some places where "kids being kids" simply isn't acceptable. Eating dinner at a reasonable restaurant is one and a coffeehouse (where presumably people go to drink coffee, read the paper and relax) without a kids area is another.

SI's last comment is deadon.

[Rockstar]

What works for me is having control over the things my kids want at this stage in their lives (toys, games, computer time ect....). For us (W and me), this works much better than a spanking would.
And yes, there are times when my kids are brats and we want to both grab belts and spank them. But we dont. We use a different approach and it has been effective.
Dont misunderstand me though. For some parents spanking is their approach and I'm not judging them for it. Theres many roads to the city.

To clarify about eating out, we just dont enjoy it. We only want to go out about once a month.

[JonInMiddleGA]

... and it has been effective.

If that's the case, then you'll get no grief from me about your choice.