who goes #1 in the NFL draft?

[jbmagic]

who goes #1 in the NFL draft?

Reggie Bush RB or Matt Leinart QB

[Raiders Army]

Edit-Vince Young

[Joe]

someone will trade up for Leinart

[Schmidty]

someone will trade up for Leinart

Hopefully that'll be the Lions.

[st.cronin]

Leinart, most likely, depending on who ends up with the pick.

[Izulde]

I hope Leinart tanks.

[Schmidty]

I hope Leinart tanks.

Why?

[GoldenEagle]

DeAngelo!

[MizzouRah]

The Jets would love to have Bush, but I would agree that someone trades up to get Leinart. I just hope he's not like dipshit Eli Manning and refuses to play for a certain team.

[Schmidty]

I thought this for a while too, but, looking at the general shittiness of the Lions' O-line, I think a more mobile guy is in order.

It's going to be another long rebuild and a new coach's system, so I think getting the best overall QB would be best. After that, draft all OL. :)

[timmynausea]

Are you guys kidding? The Lions are a speedy wideout away from the Super Bowl.

[ice4277]

Hopefully that'll be the Lions.
I thought this for a while too, but, looking at the general shittiness of the Lions' O-line, I think a more mobile guy is in order.

[Glengoyne]

I seriously can't imagine taking Lienart over Bush. Bush seems to be a sure thing, and QB is such a hard position to judge.

Bush is obviously special....Lienart is good.

[Schmidty]

I seriously can't imagine taking Lienart over Bush. Bush seems to be a sure thing, and QB is such a hard position to judge.

Bush is obviously special....Lienart is good.

I don't think anyone can say anyone is "special", while another comparable player is "good", until they actually play in the NFL. I can think of a ton of guys that went in the top 3 that people were saying would be "special", but turned out to be "good", "average", or "shitty".

That was a lot of quotes.

[MizzouRah]

Even if that's true, Leinart will still be the pick, because the NFL is a quarterback's league.
Yep, even if FOF would have him go in the second round. :p

[st.cronin]

Bush is obviously special....Lienart is good.

Even if that's true, Leinart will still be the pick, because the NFL is a quarterback's league.

[Eaglesfan27]

It completely depends upon who gets the #1 pick and whether they trade it or not.

[Schmidty]

Timestamp bug is out of control in this thread.

[Crapshoot]

The Jets would love to have Bush, but I would agree that someone trades up to get Leinart. I just hope he's not like dipshit Eli Manning and refuses to play for a certain team.

Eh - I disagree. Why on earth can't you tell an employer that you don't want to work for them ? Why doesn't he get the same rights you or I do ?

[dervack]

Well, the Packers might be in the running. Do they draft Leinart after drafting Rogers last year, or do they get Bush and cut loose Green?

[cthomer5000]

Well, the Packers might be in the running. Do they draft Leinart after drafting Rogers last year, or do they get Bush and cut loose Green?
zero chance they would draft another QB in the 1st. Grabbing Bush is a definitely possibility there, i think.

[Hurst2112]

reminds me of when Couch and Williams were going to be drafted. there was talk for months on how you build a franchise (brown coming back in the league). people were of the opinion that you take a QB because he will be a mainstay in your offence longer than a running back.

now that i think of it, that scenario isn't a good analogy. hehe

[Joe]

Why?

Probably because of jealously. Same reason WrongWay wants to see Wie fail. So lame.

[bhlloy]

The most interesting scenario I think is the Texans... QB and RB are clearly not their biggest needs. I think they take the OT Ferguson, possibly trading down to number 3 if they are sure he will still be there then.

I'm not 100% sure Leinart is an NFL QB and that's coming from a USC fan. To some extent his line and the skill players around him have made him look better than he is I think. He does have the intangibles and the size though, and is not as immoble as people think.

Bush is a franchise running back. Unless he blows his knee out against Texas (God forbid) he's probably the best to come out since LT. I'd take him number one if I had the need, but i don't know how many teams do. RB is kind of a luxury pick for a bad team.

[bhlloy]

Dola - the Packers are also a fascinating scenario. Do you give up on Rodgers already to go for a more highly rated, but by no means sure thing QB. Do you give up on Ahman Green after his injury problems?
I think trading down would be the best way to go. Try to pick up an O-Lineman and an impact defensive player. I would love to see them try to move Rodgers and pick up Leinart as well though.

[st.cronin]

I'm not 100% sure Leinart is an NFL QB ...

Are you serious? Name 10 nfl qbs you'd take over Leinart.

[MizzouRah]

Eh - I disagree. Why on earth can't you tell an employer that you don't want to work for them ? Why doesn't he get the same rights you or I do ?
Lets talk apples to apples. We're talking sports NOT normal blue collar work here.

Maybe we can have the draft and then players can have the right to decline which team picks them? Maybe then the draft can then be non-exsistant as players can just step up to the podium and say, "I will play for X team only".

Give me a break, it's football.. if you get drafted, you get paid and you play.

[Izulde]

Because I think Leinart is the most overrated QB in the country right now... and I despise the city of Los Angeles.

[ice4277]

It's going to be another long rebuild
Man, I missed hearing that about the Lions. Its been at least 2 years http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[ice4277]

Because I think Leinart is the most overrated QB in the country right now... and I despise the city of Los Angeles.
Well, at least it is your unbiased opinion.

[bhlloy]

Are you serious? Name 10 nfl qbs you'd take over Leinart.

There is no such thing as a sure thing college QB. Remember Ryan Leaf?

Leinart has looked great for two years on the best team in college football, with by far the best line and best players around him. Put him on a 2-14 NFL team with poor protection and no running game and we'll see.

I'm not saying he's not a great prospect, and if I had a need at QB I'd take him first overall, but let's not put him in the hall of fame just yet.

[Emiliano]

Reggie Bush

[Havok]

Edit-Vince Young


now thats a waste of a 1st overall pick

[Schmidty]

Because I think Leinart is the most overrated QB in the country right now... and I despise the city of Los Angeles.

So basically you're totally bitter and irrational about a team and it's player. I can relate. :D

[Havok]

I seriously can't imagine taking Lienart over Bush. Bush seems to be a sure thing, and QB is such a hard position to judge.

Bush is obviously special....Lienart is good.

Dola

Peter Warrick was 'special' also

[Antmeister]

Eh - I disagree. Why on earth can't you tell an employer that you don't want to work for them ? Why doesn't he get the same rights you or I do ?

Huh? Then I guess there is not point in having a draft then. Why even have a draft if people can choose where they want to play?

And yes I was pissed off because he did it to my Chargers :mad:

[Glengoyne]

To me Bush is a slam dunk star Running Back in the NFL. Lienart might be a good NFL QB.

As for special....I didn't think Stephen Jackson was special, but I thought he was going to be a solid RB. I thought Marshall Faulk was special. I thought Barry Sanders was special...Right after I thought Thurman Thomas was special. Eric Dickerson was special.

I really believe that Bush will be in the same league as these guys. He's that kind of special.

[gkb]

Are you guys kidding? The Lions are a speedy wideout away from the Super Bowl.

Damn that's funny. :D

[Schmidty]

To me Bush is a slam dunk star Running Back in the NFL. Lienart might be a good NFL QB.

As for special....I didn't think Stephen Jackson was special, but I thought he was going to be a solid RB. I thought Marshall Faulk was special. I thought Barry Sanders was special...Right after I thought Thurman Thomas was special. Eric Dickerson was special.

I really believe that Bush will be in the same league as these guys. He's that kind of special.

So why aren't you either A) a professional scout, or B) a pychic?

[st.cronin]

There is no such thing as a sure thing college QB. Remember Ryan Leaf?

Leinart has looked great for two years on the best team in college football, with by far the best line and best players around him. Put him on a 2-14 NFL team with poor protection and no running game and we'll see.

I'm not saying he's not a great prospect, and if I had a need at QB I'd take him first overall, but let's not put him in the hall of fame just yet.

The question isn't 'should Leinart be in the Hall of fame.' The question is, who would you rather have, Leinart or Bush? Your argument was that you weren't sure if Leinart was nfl material, which is absurd. He's a comparable prospect to Carson Palmer or Peyton Manning. If you'd rather have Bush, fine, just keep the conversation rational.

[gkb]

Dola (my first...I've been reading the WWJD thread).

I'd love to see the Broncos trade their two number 1 picks to move up in the draft and get Leinart, but I don't think that'll happen.

[Crapshoot]

Huh? Then I guess there is not point in having a draft then. Why even have a draft if people can choose where they want to play?

And yes I was pissed off because he did it to my Chargers :mad:

Damn good question - I don't like the draft system - I'm consistent on this.

[Crapshoot]

Lets talk apples to apples. We're talking sports NOT normal blue collar work here.

Maybe we can have the draft and then players can have the right to decline which team picks them? Maybe then the draft can then be non-exsistant as players can just step up to the podium and say, "I will play for X team only".

Give me a break, it's football.. if you get drafted, you get paid and you play.

"Blue Collar Work" Todd ? What is that ? 80% of the US is in work that is not blue collar, and I fail to see how blue collar work has some sort of special claim to labor rights that the rest of us don't.

As it happens, the NFL has told its players that to participate, they have to agree to be drafted. What Eli Manning did is test that out - suggesting that he did not want to play in San Diego, and the team chose to respect his wishes by dealing him. They can (screwed up as it is) draft him and he has every right not to sign - there is no compulsion to go to an organization you do not want to.

And it is football - people get where they are because of their skills, and shouldn't be penalized for it.

[vtbub]

I'll waffle and say it depends on who gets the pick.

[TroyF]

I agree with the consensus, I think you have to take Leinhart #1 if you don't already have a QB.

I also think Bush is without a doubt, "special."

I remember Warrick. I remember Dunn. Hell, I go back to Billy Sims and I'm sure there are many here who can remember back further.

All I know is that Bush is in a different league than any back I've ever seen in college. It's not just the stats either. It's the smoothness, the acceleration, the way he runs a pass route. He just looks better than everyone else on the field everytime he sets foot on it.

The knock on him is going to be durability. Can he take the pounding of an every down running back in the NFL. I'm not psychic, I have no idea. But I think he's as close to a "sure" thing as I've ever seen in an NFL draft.

I can only remember watching three other players and getting that feel. . . Peyton Manning and Champ Bailey. Derrick Johnson is the third. Two are probowlers and among the best at their positions in the game. The third is a rookie leading his team in tackles and someone I think is going to be a monster once he figures the NFL out. Again, I'm not a scout. Not even close. But Bush is an amazing player. I'd be stunned if he failed in the NFL because of anything other than injury.

[IMetTrentGreen]

this draft is so deep in tackles that houston could trade down a couple times and still end up with a guy who can play right away. hard to pass up bush but i think thats what they have to do

[GrantDawg]

The question isn't 'should Leinart be in the Hall of fame.' The question is, who would you rather have, Leinart or Bush? Your argument was that you weren't sure if Leinart was nfl material, which is absurd. He's a comparable prospect to Carson Palmer or Peyton Manning. If you'd rather have Bush, fine, just keep the conversation rational.

I really don't see him in the league of Peyton or Carson. I don't even think he is as good as Eli (who I am not completely sold on). Just an opinion. He might be a good starter, but I don't see him being the second coming of Joe Montana.

[Buccaneer]

I go back to Billy Sims and I'm sure there are many here who can remember back further.

I can go back to remembering when OJ was drafted.

[Eaglesfan27]

There is no such thing as a sure thing college QB. Remember Ryan Leaf?

Leinart has looked great for two years on the best team in college football, with by far the best line and best players around him. Put him on a 2-14 NFL team with poor protection and no running game and we'll see.

I'm not saying he's not a great prospect, and if I had a need at QB I'd take him first overall, but let's not put him in the hall of fame just yet.
Actually, he's looked great for 3 years. Even though he didn't win the Heisman, he had a great sophomore year. He is 37-1 as a starter. His stats speak for themselves. He's completing well over 60% of his passes, he guides an offense, he makes plays. He is going to prove himself as a very good NFL QB just as Carson has.

[Havok]

To me Bush is a slam dunk star Running Back in the NFL. Lienart might be a good NFL QB.

As for special....I didn't think Stephen Jackson was special, but I thought he was going to be a solid RB. I thought Marshall Faulk was special. I thought Barry Sanders was special...Right after I thought Thurman Thomas was special. Eric Dickerson was special.

I really believe that Bush will be in the same league as these guys. He's that kind of special.


your probally right... but he just seems alittle to tall and not 'thick' enough to be an NFL RB, seems more like a reciever to me. I just can't seem him hadling the ball 20 times a game in the NFL

[MizzouRah]

"Blue Collar Work" Todd ? What is that ? 80% of the US is in work that is not blue collar, and I fail to see how blue collar work has some sort of special claim to labor rights that the rest of us don't.

As it happens, the NFL has told its players that to participate, they have to agree to be drafted. What Eli Manning did is test that out - suggesting that he did not want to play in San Diego, and the team chose to respect his wishes by dealing him. They can (screwed up as it is) draft him and he has every right not to sign - there is no compulsion to go to an organization you do not want to.

And it is football - people get where they are because of their skills, and shouldn't be penalized for it.
Penalized? You make more money than 90% of the population and you're penalized for a team wanting to pay you to play for them? Pay you according to the slot in which you are drafted? Give me a break.. lets cry a river for these players who only want to play for X team, instead of being happy they are allowed to be a part of an elite organization.

It just ticks me off. I respect your opinion though.

[Havok]

All I know is that Bush is in a different league than any back I've ever seen in college.


Then i guess you never saw Barry Sanders play in college???? It wasn't even fair when he played at Oklahoma State.

Heres some stats.....

The year: In 1988, Sanders came out of relative obscurity to set NCAA records with 2,628 rushing yards, 3,249 total yards, 39 touchdowns and 234 points. To put this in perspective, to compare Sanders' yards to teams in 2001, Sanders would be 8th behind Nebraska, Rice, Air Force, Indiana, Kansas State, Colorado and Ohio. (BYU amassed 2,832 yards in 13 games.) As a scorer, Sanders holds the record for most consecutive games scoring two or more touchdowns rushing with 12.

[st.cronin]

Leinart makes me think of Roethlisberger, although I think he'll be better.

Bush doesn't remind me of anybody. I have no frame of reference for how he'll do in the NFL. He doesn't really look like a RB. He's obviously incredibly fast and elusive, a hard worker and a bright kid.

[AgustusM]

too many RB's drafted high have been busts with far too many mid-low rounders turning into pro bowlers

at QB you have the same bust factor, but it seems far fewer stars from low rounders (yes I know Tom Brady and Joe Montana - but beyond that most pro bowl QB's are first rounders)

having said all that I hope my team (the Niners) loses out and then pulls the highway robbery the chargers pulled on the Giants a couple years back and gets tons of extra picks for moving down a couple spots and then starts to rebuild thier horific offensive line.

[dervack]

There is no such thing as a sure thing college RB. Remember Curtis Enis?

Bush has looked great for two years on the best team in college football, with by far the best line and best players around him. Put him on a 2-14 NFL team with poor protection and no passing game and we'll see.

I'm not saying he's not a great prospect, and if I had a need at RB I'd take him first overall, but let's not put him in the hall of fame just yet.

Fixed

[General Mike]

Leinart makes me think of Roethlisberger, although I think he'll be better.

Bush doesn't remind me of anybody.


Tiki Barber.

[Craptacular]

If the Packers get the pick, it HAS to be Bush. I could see the Texans trading down to someone who wants Bush or Leinart.

Anyone know of a good site to get updated strength of schedule numbers (for tie-breaking)??

[TroyF]

Then i guess you never saw Barry Sanders play in college???? It wasn't even fair when he played at Oklahoma State.

Heres some stats.....

The year: In 1988, Sanders came out of relative obscurity to set NCAA records with 2,628 rushing yards, 3,249 total yards, 39 touchdowns and 234 points. To put this in perspective, to compare Sanders' yards to teams in 2001, Sanders would be 8th behind Nebraska, Rice, Air Force, Indiana, Kansas State, Colorado and Ohio. (BYU amassed 2,832 yards in 13 games.) As a scorer, Sanders holds the record for most consecutive games scoring two or more touchdowns rushing with 12.


Actually, I'm a grad of Oklahoma State. I saw Barry in person on a trip where I visited there.

He was special. Really, really special. But it always concerned me that he constantly looked for the big play. I wasn't sure he could be a dominant back in the NFL because I was worried he couldn't get the tough yards. If the line was blocked up front, he wouldn't take the three yeards, he'd either bounce it outside or he'd fall down.

Well, in college, there was a lot of bouncing outside and very little falling down.

I was partially right and partially wrong. He had a terrific career as an NFL back. And he was clearly better than I thought he'd be. Yet he lost yards on like 1/4 of his career carries and I still feel that he was part of the reason the Lions struggled against good teams. The 90 yard runs are great. And the anklebreaker moves were awesome. But those lost yards turned 2nd and 7 into 2nd and 12. If you study statistics, you know just how big of a difference that is in an NFL game.

I've seen Bush take some tough 2-5 yard runs up the middle. He's also a much bigger overall weapon than Barry, in terms of his receiving skills. (notice I didn't say returning, Barry was an All American kickoff returner as a freshmen at OSU, he could return the ball, but the coaches didn't want him to, and understandably so)

[Schmidty]

Yet he lost yards on like 1/4 of his career carries and I still feel that he was part of the reason the Lions struggled against good teams. The 90 yard runs are great. And the anklebreaker moves were awesome. But those lost yards turned 2nd and 7 into 2nd and 12. If you study statistics, you know just how big of a difference that is in an NFL game.

You might have seen Barry in person, but I literally saw every single game that he played in the NFL. My dad sent me video tapes of the games when I lived in Florida for a few years. He DID try to break big ones and lost yards on occasion, but the vast majority was because of missed blocks by his awful offensive lines. The ONLY year Barry had a decent line, was in 1991 when they went to the NFC Championship, but even that year, they lost a key O-Lineman - Mike Utley. The next year, they lost one of their other best linemen - Eric Andolsek. After that, they had Lomas Brown, and that was it. Barry NEVER really had protection. The fact that he gained so many damned yards, and single-handedly won so many games for the Lions is a credit to his amazing talent.

If Barry had EVER had even an above-average line (other than part of 1991), the Lions would have likely won at least one, maybe two Super Bowls, and would have passed Payton in like 1997 or 1998.

[MizzouRah]

You might have seen Barry in person, but I literally saw every single game that he played in the NFL. My dad sent me video tapes of the games when I lived in Florida for a few years. He DID try to break big ones and lose yards on occasion, but the vast majority was because of missed blocks by his awful offensive lines. The ONLY year Barry had a decent line, was in 1991 when they went to the NFC Championship, but even that year, they lost a key O-Lineman - Mike Utley. The next year, they lost one of the other best linemen that had - Eric Andolsek. After that, they had Lomas Brown, and that was it. Barry NEVER really had protection. The fact that he gained so many damn yards, and single-handedly won so many games for the Lions is a credit to his amazing talent.

If the Barry had EVER had even an above-average line (other than part of 1991), the Lions would have likely won at least one, maybe two Super Bowls, and would have passed Payton in like 1997 or 1998.
Amen. If him and Emmitt could have traded OL's, it would have been scary to see what Barry's numbers would have been.

[21C]

Anyone know of a good site to get updated strength of schedule numbers (for tie-breaking)??
hxxp://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/draftorder.html

As of Week 12 - I assume they update it every week.

[Swaggs]

I can go back to remembering when OJ was drafted.

What about Jim Thorpe?

[Havok]

Actually, I'm a grad of Oklahoma State. I saw Barry in person on a trip where I visited there.

He was special. Really, really special. But it always concerned me that he constantly looked for the big play. I wasn't sure he could be a dominant back in the NFL because I was worried he couldn't get the tough yards. If the line was blocked up front, he wouldn't take the three yeards, he'd either bounce it outside or he'd fall down.

Well, in college, there was a lot of bouncing outside and very little falling down.

I was partially right and partially wrong. He had a terrific career as an NFL back. And he was clearly better than I thought he'd be. Yet he lost yards on like 1/4 of his career carries and I still feel that he was part of the reason the Lions struggled against good teams. The 90 yard runs are great. And the anklebreaker moves were awesome. But those lost yards turned 2nd and 7 into 2nd and 12. If you study statistics, you know just how big of a difference that is in an NFL game.

I've seen Bush take some tough 2-5 yard runs up the middle. He's also a much bigger overall weapon than Barry, in terms of his receiving skills. (notice I didn't say returning, Barry was an All American kickoff returner as a freshmen at OSU, he could return the ball, but the coaches didn't want him to, and understandably so)



i just gotta disagree, Barry is the best running back i've ever seen, hands down, no one is close. Now im only 26 so i didn't see Jim Brown and Gayle Sayers play, but the numbers he put up on a horrible Lions team are amazing. If Bush has half the career Barry had he should be thankful.

[NoMyths]

I'll chime in as well: having watched Sanders during his prime, and a lot of other backs since, I've not seen a one that brought what he did. A truly unbelievable back. I've never seen anyone move like him.

[Antmeister]

Being a Chargers fan with a great back like Thomlinson, I have to say that I have never seen a back like Barry Sanders.
I watched Walter Peyton play.
I watched Emmit Smith play.
I watched Thurman Thomas play.
I watched Bo Jackson play...
But no one could touch Barry Sanders.
He only lost yards because he had a bad offensive line and you also forget he had terrible coaches for years. He rushed better than any runningback that I have seen with 8 men in the box. I mean he was basically the only threat on the team and the other teams always planned against it and yet he was still able to put up phenomenal numbers. I don't see how anyone can say that he wasn't anything but.

[NoMyths]

Imagine Barry with the Cowboys during their run. Imagine Barry with the 49ers during their run. Heck, imagine Barry with the current Patriots.

There's not a back I'd rather have running the ball. I can't think of a close second.

(It's partly why I teased so much in a distant thread comparing Portis to Sanders).

[cthomer5000]

(It's partly why I teased so much in a distant thread comparing Portis to Sanders).
That was *ahem* Quentin Griffin.

I told you that kid was the real deal! http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/frown.gif

[NoMyths]

That was *ahem* Quentin Griffin.

I told you that kid was the real deal! http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/frown.gifHeh...sorry, got confused with a back that was actually worth a damn. :D

[TroyF]

I'm sorry guys, I loved watching Barry break off the big runs more than anyone. I watched every Lions game I could because of Barry. And I respect what he did.

But I dont' think it'd have been any different with ANY other line. Barry's style was the big play. That's what he was. It sounds like I'm bashing him but I'm not. He was one of the greatest backs to ever play the game.

But those lost yards weren't always because of "poor" offensive lines. Barry was not an easy guy to block for. You could give him a hole but he was always looking for the big play. Always. (and hell, if I had that ability I probably would have as well) Well, just like a QB holding onto the blal for to long because he's looking for the play downfield, Barry passed up many 3 yard gains in search of the 30 yard gains. That's fine, I have no problem with that.

But don't assume a new line changes anything there. Barry was always going to look for that big gain. It's what made him who he was and it's what made him so exciting to watch. But sometimes those gains aren't there to be had. Sometimes you need a back to gut you out a 25 carry 80 yard performence with the long gainer being 5 yards. That's what Emmitt Smith was designed for. As was Walter Payton. Ditto Jim Brown.

I know my take on Barry isn't a popular one, but that's life. Give me the Anwoine Smith, Roger Craig, Emmitt Smith, John Riggins, Terrell Davis three yards every play and the occasional big burst or give me the LT, Marshall Faulk, Edge, Ricky Watters type guys who get me the three yards every play and catch the ball 70+ times out of the backfield. I think those are guys you can win with. I don't think it's possible to win when your starting RB is faced with a decision, he falls to the ground and takes the two yard loss as opposed to sticking his head down and gettint two positive yards.

FWIW, I think the Seahawks will have trouble going deep into the playoffs with Alexander. Does it a little less than Barry, but still does it a lot. (no, I'm not comparing the two RB's, only their styles) I just think 2nd and 12 in the playoffs is suicide. And that's something Barry was going to give you 15-20% of the time no matter what line blocked for him.

Flame away. :) :)

[Cringer]

If the Packers get the pick, it HAS to be Bush. I could see the Texans trading down to someone who wants Bush or Leinart.

Anyone know of a good site to get updated strength of schedule numbers (for tie-breaking)??

I wouldn't be so sure just yet. I would want him to be their pick, but I would not be surprised to see the Packers trade down. They have cap concerns still, and Thompson is a Ron Wolf guy which makes me think he would try to trade down if a decent deal is there.

[Julio Riddols]

I happen to think that Vince Young will be a more accurate Quarterback than Vick, and with his athleticism, he immediately presents a challenge to defenses gome-plan wise.. A quarterback like that on a decent team can make a huge difference.. If he goes in the mid first round to a team that could have been a contender.. (Arizona, Miami, Baltimore, or the New York Jets would be a good place..) He could be a difference maker. I'm sure there will be a learning curve, but he seems to have much more success passing the ball and still has the ability to run and keep defenses on their heels all by himself with his mobility. There is also a good depth at the Running Back position, but Reggie Bush is a gamebreaker.. I could see him with a team like Green Bay, The Jets, Cleveland, Arizona or San Francisco (Who needs to realize Kevan Barlow is not a starting Running Back).. I think Arizona is the best fit.. He could potentially turn that offense into the next greatest show on turf (or grass).. I see him as the type that carries the ball 15-20 times a game and catches it another 5-8.. He would be a matchup problem for any linebacker with his receiving skill.. And speaking of receiving skills.. Is it just me, or are running backs with great hands ever really a bust? I can't think of one right off hand, but I admit I could be wrong..

For Leinart, I think it all depends on how well his leadership skills and demeanor hold up if he is on a bad team. (Which is an inevitability) He seems to have a similar mental makeup to a Carson Palmer or a Peyton Manning, and he came back for a senior season at USC when he really had no reason to other than the fact that he wanted to prepare himself even better for the NFL and try to repeat as National Champs.. That alone tells me a lot about his makeup, and I think the argument can be made that all skills aside, that is the biggest determinant of a Quarterbacks success.

Just my 55 cents.

[Grammaticus]

Are you serious? Name 10 nfl qbs you'd take over Leinart.

1. Manning, Payton
2. Manning, Eli
3. Brady, Tom
4. McNabb, Donovan
5. Favre, Brett
6. Bledsoe, Drew
7. Roethlisberger, Ben
8. Plummer, Jake
9. Brees, Drew
10. Carr, David

[st.cronin]

1. Manning, Payton
2. Manning, Eli
3. Brady, Tom
4. McNabb, Donovan
5. Favre, Brett
6. Bledsoe, Drew
7. Roethlisberger, Ben
8. Plummer, Jake
9. Brees, Drew
10. Carr, David

Drew Bledsoe? Brett Favre?

Maybe 5 years ago.

[timmynausea]

I don't know if there are 10, but Carson Palmer should be on the list.

[st.cronin]

I don't know if there are 10, but Carson Palmer should be on the list.

agree

I would say Palmer, Manning, Manning, Brady, McNabb and Brees are the only ones I would for sure rather have than Leinart.

[Grammaticus]

Drew Bledsoe? Brett Favre?

Maybe 5 years ago.
They are still great quarterbacks that can lead a team very well. I think any club would be happy to have either one for a run this year. If you are talking about building a team over the next four to five years, then no.

[JeeberD]

David Carr?

[TroyF]

1. Manning, Payton No doubt about it
2. Manning, Eli I personally think Leinhart will be better, far more accurate
3. Brady, Tom Again, no doubt
4. McNabb, Donovan no doubt
5. Favre, Brett one year? Maybe. But not long term
6. Bledsoe, Drew see Favre, Brett
7. Roethlisberger, Ben agreed
8. Plummer, Jake I live in Denver and am a huge Broncos fan. Jake's job is to NOT LOSE the game. Sorry, I'd love Leinhart over Jake, would do it in a second
9. Brees, Drew Agreed, but he makes some REALLY dumb plays
10. Carr, David Could not possibly disagree more with this one, this guy sucks


I'm sorry, but the list doesn't have a ton of logic. Why Favre and Bledsoe but not Trent Green, Matt Hasselbach, or Jake Delhomme?

And how can you list Carr, but not Palmer (who is 200x the QB Carr is), Leftwich, or Vick? (I know Vick isn't a great pocket passer, but he does win a lot of football games)

If you are answering the question name top ten QB's you'd want over Leinhart next year, you could probably list 20. If you are talking long term, I can only think of a handful.

[MizzouRah]

Where in the * is Vick? or Hasselbeck? or Green?

[Grammaticus]

1. Manning, Payton No doubt about it
2. Manning, Eli I personally think Leinhart will be better, far more accurate
3. Brady, Tom Again, no doubt
4. McNabb, Donovan no doubt
5. Favre, Brett one year? Maybe. But not long term
6. Bledsoe, Drew see Favre, Brett
7. Roethlisberger, Ben agreed
8. Plummer, Jake I live in Denver and am a huge Broncos fan. Jake's job is to NOT LOSE the game. Sorry, I'd love Leinhart over Jake, would do it in a second
9. Brees, Drew Agreed, but he makes some REALLY dumb plays
10. Carr, David Could not possibly disagree more with this one, this guy sucks

I'm sorry, but the list doesn't have a ton of logic. Why Favre and Bledsoe but not Trent Green, Matt Hasselbach, or Jake Delhomme?

And how can you list Carr, but not Palmer (who is 200x the QB Carr is), Leftwich, or Vick? (I know Vick isn't a great pocket passer, but he does win a lot of football games)

If you are answering the question name top ten QB's you'd want over Leinhart next year, you could probably list 20. If you are talking long term, I can only think of a handful.

I almost put Trent Green on my the list and would agree I’d take him over Leinart. I just put 10 quick ones up there. I feel about Hasselbach and Delhomme, like you do about Plummer. I would rather take a chance on Leinart than those two. I also think Plummer does a better job of directing the offense then Hasselbach and Delhomme..

I put Carr on because I think he is not a bust yet and could be good today on a better team. I don’t think Palmer is that great, but maybe I would take him over Leinart.

Vick is not a good QB, he can run great, but cannot throw accurately and command an offense. He is the most over hyped player in the history of the NFL. Plus, his attitude is detrimental to building a strong team. He has that TO and Moss bull-crap me over the team focus. Anyone who creates issues like the Ron Mexico thing, is not good for an organization. There is going to be more where that came from.

I don’t see Leftwich as ever developing into a top tier QB. But, I can see the argument of him versus Carr. It is just a guess as to who will be a better in the long run.

[MizzouRah]

I almost put Trent Green on my the list and would agree I’d take him over Leinart. I just put 10 quick ones up there. I feel about Hasselbach and Delhomme, like you do about Plummer. I would rather take a chance on Leinart than those two. I also think Plummer does a better job of directing the offense then Hasselbach and Delhomme..

I put Carr on because I think he is not a bust yet and could be good today on a better team. I don’t think Palmer is that great, but maybe I would take him over Leinart.

Vick is not a good QB, he can run great, but cannot throw accurately and command an offense. He is the most over hyped player in the history of the NFL. Plus, his attitude is detrimental to building a strong team. He has that TO and Moss bull-crap me over the team focus. Anyone who creates issues like the Ron Mexico thing, is not good for an organization. There is going to be more where that came from.

I don’t see Leftwich as ever developing into a top tier QB. But, I can see the argument of him versus Carr. It is just a guess as to who will be a better in the long run.
You definitly have a right to your opinion, but I'd take Vick anyday over Leinart right now as we speak. I might change my mind down the road, but for now, Vick would be an easy choice.

[Grammaticus]

You definitly have a right to your opinion, but I'd take Vick anyday over Leinart right now as we speak. I might change my mind down the road, but for now, Vick would be an easy choice.

A lot of people like Vick. To your point of "right now", Leinart's rookie year will likely not be pretty. But I still think Leinart has stronger essential QB tools to run the offense. He also seems to be free of destructive behavior traits.

[Glengoyne]

I'm with Troy on Sanders. He was awesome, and could move like no one. A great runner.

Not a great running back in terms of doing the things that win games. His stat line might have read 25 carries for 100 yards at the end of the day, but its pretty likely that at some point it read 12 carries for 10 yards. That makes it tough to win ball games.

[ISiddiqui]

Now you can say Vick doesn't throw accurately enough (though I think the last 4 weeks have proved those people wrong), but can't command an offense?! WTF?

[Havok]

Now you can say Vick doesn't throw accurately enough (though I think the last 4 weeks have proved those people wrong), but can't command an offense?! WTF?


spoken like a true Atlanta fan

[ISiddiqui]

spoken like a true NFL fanFixed

[Havok]

Fixed


yes... cause 4 decent passing games with the best running attack in football (which helps ALOT)makes up for 3 seasons of bad passing. All im saying is don't jump the gun. But you are bais since your an Atlanta fan (i think). I'd be the same way with a Redskin player.

[ISiddiqui]

I would think that 4 weeks where Vick has thrown very well indicates that he can be accurate in the offense when he gets time to throw the ball and is allowed to get into a rhythm. And in the game today, his completion % is pretty good as well.

[bhlloy]

I put Carr on because I think he is not a bust yet and could be good today on a better team. I don’t think Palmer is that great, but maybe I would take him over Leinart.


Gulp... Carr over Palmer? Even my logic isn't that bad :p

Going back to what I was saying about Leinart earlier, I will agree St. Cronin you have a point. Leinart is a great NFL prospect. I won't agree he's on Manning's level, and a lot of people around USC will tell you that Palmer was marginally the better NFL prospect coming out but he's still damn good.

I still maintain the key word is "prospect". Everything about Leinart tells me he's going to be good, but I can't honestly say he's a lock. Too many great college QB's have busted in the pros. Just my opinion.

Running backs generally (and I do appreciate the point about Enis, but I think Bush is on a whole different level) are much easier to predict. I'd put a lot of money on Bush being a very good NFL running back.

[dervack]

Running backs generally (and I do appreciate the point about Enis, but I think Bush is on a whole different level) are much easier to predict. I'd put a lot of money on Bush being a very good NFL running back.

I don't disagree that Bush is going to be a good back, but your "reasons" why you think Leinart might not be as good can also apply to Bush, since they do both play behind the same line. For as many QB's that flame out in the first round, I would bet there is as many, if not more RB's.

[Young Drachma]

your probally right... but he just seems alittle to tall and not 'thick' enough to be an NFL RB, seems more like a reciever to me. I just can't seem him hadling the ball 20 times a game in the NFL

I thought this too and when I first heard of him, thought he had the look of a wideout. That said, I dunno. Leinart is surely gonna break the bank, but...I'd have to say that Bush seems like a better bet to me.

I will say that especially in college, the difference between a good QB and a bad one is really easy to tell. Because a team with all the talent in the world can't produce when the guy behind center isn't a big game player.

Case in point, the 2005 Wyoming Cowboys season. Their defense kept them in most of their games after going on a 4-game win streak, but their QB single-handedly lost 4 games on his own with 4th quarter, redzone interceptions or fumbling. The coach refuses to remove the kid and so, team goes down with their field general.

I think Leinart has proven he's got the head to be a QB in the league and so, it's just a matter of him being on the right team and I doubt he'll want to go play for some crappy team. Hopefully, the people surrounding him will give him good advice about his future marketablity and such.

I too, think players have the right not to play for the teams that draft them, provided the team goes along with it. It's all part of bargaining, because even the draft is just a function of the business of sports.

[st.cronin]

Bush actually reminds me of John Taylor more so than any RB I can remember.

[Tom E]

To me Bush is a slam dunk star Running Back in the NFL. Lienart might be a good NFL QB.

As for special....I didn't think Stephen Jackson was special, but I thought he was going to be a solid RB. I thought Marshall Faulk was special. I thought Barry Sanders was special...Right after I thought Thurman Thomas was special. Eric Dickerson was special.

I really believe that Bush will be in the same league as these guys. He's that kind of special.

It takes a real football mind to watch those RB's play and think that they're special...Are you related to Bill Walsh...

[bhlloy]

I don't disagree that Bush is going to be a good back, but your "reasons" why you think Leinart might not be as good can also apply to Bush, since they do both play behind the same line. For as many QB's that flame out in the first round, I would bet there is as many, if not more RB's.

Fair point. I guess I've just seen Reggie pull off too many amazing runs, but I do see the double standard there.

[bhlloy]

Dola - your point about running backs vs qb's flaming out did interest me. So I took a look at the past few drafts.

1999
Ricky Williams
Edgerrin James

2000:
Jamal Lewis
Thomas Jones
Ron Dayne (bad)
Shaun Alexander
Trung Canidate (bad, but last selection of the first round and a pretty dodgy pick at the time I seem to remember)

2001:
Ladanian Tomlinson
Deuce McAllister
Michael Bennett

2002:
William Green (bad)
TJ Duckett (semi bad - pretty useful situational player, but not first round value)

2003:
Willis McGahee
Larry Johnson

2004:
Steven Jackson
Chris Perry (semi bad, hasn't seen much time. Could produce elsewhere)
Kevin Jones

2005:
Cadillac Williams
Cedric Benson (too early to tell)
Ronny Brown

So really, 5/20 bad picks (possibly six depending on how bad Benson bombs) and that's being quite harsh. Only Dayne and possibly William Green are spectacular flame outs. I'm no expert but that seems a very decent percentage, compared to other positions like Defensive Line and Defensive Back.

Now for the QB's:

1999
Tim Couch (bad)
Donovan McNabb
Akili Smith (baaaad)
Daunte Culpepper
Cade McNown (bad)

2000:
Chad Pennington

2001:
Michael Vick

2002:
David Carr (Not a good pick given the circumstances, but I think he can produce elsewhere)
Joey Harrington (Bad. Surely been given enough opportunities now?)
Patrick Ramsey (Bad pick for Washington. Could produce elsewhere)

2003:
Carson Palmer
Byron Leftwich
Kyle Boller (Bad. He's getting replaced after this year, possibly by Leinart)
Rex Grossman

2004:
Eli Manning
Phillip Rivers (who the hell knows yet?)
JP Losman (borderline, give him another year)

I didn't even bother to include 2005, because we haven't seen enough of Smith and anything of Rodgers. I make that 6/17, or 7 depending on how you feel about David Carr.

Sample size is too small to make anything of that, but my instinct was a first round running back was a bit safer and this may back it up a little. Of course take out 1999 and those three abysmal QB's and the numbers are about the same. So sue me :)

[Grammaticus]

Now you can say Vick doesn't throw accurately enough (though I think the last 4 weeks have proved those people wrong), but can't command an offense?! WTF?
At this point in the 2005 Season Following are throwing comparisons for Vick and Carr

Name- Att- Cmp- Pct- Yds- YPA- TD- Int- Rating
Vick- 247- 141- 57.1- 1612- 6.53- 12- 7- 81.2
Carr- 287- 177- 61.7- 1739- 6.06- 11- 8- 79.9

Vicks Career rating is 77.8 and Carr’s is 73.9. Vick’s highest qb rating in his career for a season is an 81.6 and Carr’s is an 83.5. Basically, they are not that far apart. Vick adds some with his running, but it can be argued that tendency also hurts his overall game, i.e. running when you should be throwing and contributes to being injury prone. It can also be argued that Carr plays on a much worse team with the worst line in football. Neither one has yet become a great qb. Which one has the most potential to break out? I say Carr

Currently for the 2005 season, Vick is #23 and Carr is #22 for all qb’s in passing yards. For passer rating, Vick is #17 and Carr is #20. Meaning, out of 30 passers with enough attempts to qualify, there are more passers ranked higher than both of them, then below them.

Palmer is one that I may well be wrong about over time. He is obviously having a really good year in 2005. But, so is Kerry Collins and no one generally talks about Collins as a great nfl qb.

[henry296]

bhlloy,

You also forgot about Big Ben as a first round pick in 2004. So far, so good despite the interceptions today.

[bhlloy]

Doh :)

[st.cronin]

I had no idea Ben Wallace was drafted by the NFL. What team holds his rights?

[Rizon]

If the 49'ers get the first pick and choose Reggie Bush, they'll have RBs named Gore and Bush. I wonder if they'll get along. I wonder if there will be lockboxes.

[SFL Cat]

If you're going to say Lineart looks like a better QB than he actually is because of the players around him, then you would have to say the same thing about Bush. It's hard not to look awesome when you're six yards down the field before a player from the other team actually touches you.

That said, I'd rather have Bush. :D

[oykib]

At this point in the 2005 Season Following are throwing comparisons for Vick and Carr

Name- Att- Cmp- Pct- Yds- YPA- TD- Int- Rating
Vick- 247- 141- 57.1- 1612- 6.53- 12- 7- 81.2
Carr- 287- 177- 61.7- 1739- 6.06- 11- 8- 79.9

Vicks Career rating is 77.8 and Carr’s is 73.9. Vick’s highest qb rating in his career for a season is an 81.6 and Carr’s is an 83.5. Basically, they are not that far apart. Vick adds some with his running, but it can be argued that tendency also hurts his overall game, i.e. running when you should be throwing and contributes to being injury prone.

It can also be argued that Carr plays on a much worse team with the worst line in football. Neither one has yet become a great qb. Which one has the most potential to break out? I say Carr


Vick doesn't add "some" with his running. Vick's running wins ballgames. Vick's running adds fifty yards a game over an average QB. And those yards don't come at the expense of plays that go for nothing 40% of the time.

As to the overall production of the offense that Vick works with, I think we can agree that it's better than Carr's supporting cast. But how much of that is that they're inherently more talented and how much is that Vick creates such matchup problems that everyone performs better. Or do you think Warrick Dunn is the third-best back in the NFL?

[SFL Cat]

Amen. If him and Emmitt could have traded OL's, it would have been scary to see what Barry's numbers would have been.

:rolleyes:

Barry was a shiftier runner than Emmitt, but nobody was better than Emmitt going up the middle. No doubt, with all things being equal Barry could break more 90+ yard runs than Emmitt could, but Barry also lost a lot of yardage in the backfield if he couldn't juke his tackler. You rarely saw Emmitt go down when hit by the first player attempting to tackle him. Also, Barry tended to disappear in playoff games. I remember one game against the Packers where he was held to single digit yards.

[dervack]

If you're going to say Lineart looks like a better QB than he actually is because of the players around him, then you would have to say the same thing about Bush. It's hard not to look awesome when you're six yards down the field before a player from the other team actually touches you.

That said, I'd rather have Bush. :D
I guess people must have me on ignore. :D

I'd rather have Leinart if I was starting a team, but if I have a serviceable QB already, I wouldn't pass up Bush #1.

[SFL Cat]

Sorry, I replied before reading all the posts. :D

You know what they say...great minds think alike!

[Chubby]

:rolleyes:

Barry was a shiftier runner than Emmitt, but nobody was better than Emmitt going up the middle. No doubt, with all things being equal Barry could break more 90+ yard runs than Emmitt could, but Barry also lost a lot of yardage in the backfield if he couldn't juke his tackler. You rarely saw Emmitt go down when hit by the first player attempting to tackle him. Also, Barry tended to disappear in playoff games. I remember one game against the Packers where he was held to single digit yards.
Barry also had a crappy OL and was forced to do all that juking since there was often defenders in the backfield before he even got the ball.

[SFL Cat]

Well, it's a mute point, because Jimmy Brown was the best running back ever. Depending on what mood he was in, he could either outrun you or run over you. In one game where the Browns were playing the Cowboys, Bob Lilly came steaming in to tackle Brown. Without much apparent effort, Jimmy simply ran over the HOF defensive tackle. If he hadn't retired in his prime, I doubt anyone could have ever caught him, yardage-wise.

[Craptacular]

hxxp://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/draftorder.html

As of Week 12 - I assume they update it every week.
Cool, thanks. Considering that going in to today, the Packers remaining opponents had a combined record of 32-23 (.582), they are likely going to be picking last in their winning percentage group. :( I was rooting for the 49ers and Texans, and they both blew it. At least they play each other in Week 17, so one of them has to win at least once. The Jets play Oakland, Buffalo, and Miami yet, so they might get lucky enough to win one.

[dervack]

:( I was rooting for the 49ers and Texans, and they both blew it. At least they play each other in Week 17, so one of them has to win at least once.

[Lee Corso]

Not so fast, my Friend. With how bad both of those teams offenses are, I wouldn't be surprised if they played to a 0-0 tie.

[/Lee Corso]

[Craptacular]

[Lee Corso]

Not so fast, my Friend. With how bad both of those teams offenses are, I wouldn't be surprised if they played to a 0-0 tie.

[/Lee Corso]
touche

[Craptacular]

Of course, a tie could still be good, as one team would increase their winning percentage. :)

[dervack]

Of course, a tie could still be good, as one team would increase their winning percentage. :)
yeah, but 1-14-1 is still worse than 2-14

[Grammaticus]

Vick doesn't add "some" with his running. Vick's running wins ballgames. Vick's running adds fifty yards a game over an average QB. And those yards don't come at the expense of plays that go for nothing 40% of the time.

As to the overall production of the offense that Vick works with, I think we can agree that it's better than Carr's supporting cast. But how much of that is that they're inherently more talented and how much is that Vick creates such matchup problems that everyone performs better. Or do you think Warrick Dunn is the third-best back in the NFL?

Oh, I definitely think that Vic’s 43.4 yards per game help out as do the 4 rushing touchdowns on the year. Car has rushed for 25.6 yards per game and 1 touchdown. So that is 17.8 yards per game advantage to Vic and 3 more touchdowns on the year or .3 per game. As you look at the stats, it shows there is not a lot separating the two, but Vic is hyped as awesome and Carr is on most people’s “not making it” list.

As for supporting cast, Vic has Warrick Dunn and TJ Duckett for rushing. He has Alge Crumpler and Brian Finneran for receiving. Carr has Domanick Davis and Jonathan Wells for rushing. He has Andre Johnson and Jabar Gaffney for receiving. The offensive line and defense overwhelmingly go to Atlanta.

I’d say it is almost shocking how bad Vic’s stats are for someone who is so hyped. Just look at this thread. Any comments were “where is Vic” or “what about Vic” and the only one on Carr was about how horrible that logic is. I really think both are on the seesaw of either making it or not. The only thing giving Vic a slight edge in stats is a much stronger team.

[Craptacular]

I'm hoping for 2-13-1 or better. :) The Texan's remaining schedule is much poorer than the Pack's, so Houston would win the tiebreaker. No matter what, the Texans have to win a game before Week 17 (they do have Tennessee and Baltimore).

[st.cronin]

Trust me: the Packers will find a way to screw up the draft, no matter where they pick. Their draft record in recent years is embarrasing.

[oykib]

Oh, I definitely think that Vic’s 43.4 yards per game help out as do the 4 rushing touchdowns on the year. Car has rushed for 25.6 yards per game and 1 touchdown. So that is 17.8 yards per game advantage to Vic and 3 more touchdowns on the year or .3 per game. As you look at the stats, it shows there is not a lot separating the two, but Vic is hyped as awesome and Carr is on most people’s “not making it” list.

As for supporting cast, Vic has Warrick Dunn and TJ Duckett for rushing. He has Alge Crumpler and Brian Finneran for receiving. Carr has Domanick Davis and Jonathan Wells for rushing. He has Andre Johnson and Jabar Gaffney for receiving. The offensive line and defense overwhelmingly go to Atlanta.

I’d say it is almost shocking how bad Vic’s stats are for someone who is so hyped. Just look at this thread. Any comments were “where is Vic” or “what about Vic” and the only one on Carr was about how horrible that logic is. I really think both are on the seesaw of either making it or not. The only thing giving Vic a slight edge in stats is a much stronger team.

I doubt you'd find a scout or coach employed anywhere that sees Carr as having a better future than Vick.

Again, Atlanta is better than Houston. But a lot of that is Vick. Vick makes the running game more effective, and not only when he's got the ball in his hands.

[Grammaticus]

:rolleyes:

Barry was a shiftier runner than Emmitt, but nobody was better than Emmitt going up the middle. No doubt, with all things being equal Barry could break more 90+ yard runs than Emmitt could, but Barry also lost a lot of yardage in the backfield if he couldn't juke his tackler. You rarely saw Emmitt go down when hit by the first player attempting to tackle him. Also, Barry tended to disappear in playoff games. I remember one game against the Packers where he was held to single digit yards.

In that 1994 Packers game, Sanders had 13 attempts for minus 1 yards. On a more positive note, in the 1993 playoff game against the packers, he had 27 rushing attempts for 169 yards. Of course, the Lions lost both games by 4 points or less.

[Craptacular]

Trust me: the Packers will find a way to screw up the draft, no matter where they pick. Their draft record in recent years is embarrasing.
Well, with Thompson in control now, you can have some hope. 10 of their 11 picks from this year are either on the roster or on I.R. Obviously, the draft will be judged by what becomes of Aaron Rodgers. Nick Collins could be good, and we'll have to wait and see on Terrence Murphy. Despite his recent demotion, Whitticker has been great for a 7th rounder.

[Glengoyne]

Well, it's a mute point, because Jimmy Brown was the best running back ever. ...

I beg to differ. Not one chance of Jim Brown being selected before either Lienart or Bush in this year's draft.

[dervack]

I beg to differ. Not one chance of Jim Brown being selected before either Lienart or Bush in this year's draft.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jim Brown is 60. I think the Lions would be the only team to give him a shot.

[SFL Cat]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jim Brown is 60. I think the Lions would be the only team to give him a shot.

Nah! You know Al Davis would probably give him a shot.

[AgustusM]

I wonder if there will be lockboxes.

"Actually, I don't think he messed with Texas"

[AgustusM]

of course the RB debate has and can go on ad naseum:

I will say this about Sanders - he was the most entertaining back I have ever seen - as far as the best back IMO it has to be Walter Payton.

Backs have more responsibility then to just run the ball and he could do it all - break the big run, get the tough yards, throw a lead block, pickup the blitzing LB's and catch the ball out of the backfield - I am a Niners fan, not a Bears fan but Walter Payton is the single greatest complete football player I have ever seen play.

Back to the draft - I went to today's Niners-Cardinals game and if Reggie Bush was on the Niners today he would have had about 40 yards on 20 carries - No RB past, future or present could be productive behind THAT line - truly the worst OL in the entire league by a long shot. I still think the Niners best bet is to trade down and start rebuilding the OL first.

[st.cronin]

of course the RB debate has and can go on ad naseum:

I will say this about Sanders - he was the most entertaining back I have ever seen - as far as the best back IMO it has to be Walter Payton.


agree

Most underappreciated in my opinion is Dickerson.

[Dunleavy]

Reggie Bush

i concur, Reggie Bush


equally interesting is who picks #1, Houston has almost been winning, and if they ever do it could be a 3 or 4 team tie.

p=probable q=questionable d=doubtful
1 Houston 1-11 Qb D Rb Q
2 New York Jets 2-10 Qb P Rb D
3 San Francisco 2-10 Qb D Rb P
4 Green Bay 2-10 Qb D Rb Q
5 Tennessee 3-9 Qb P Rb Q
6 New Orleans 3-9 Qb Q Rb D

all 6 teams have invested alot in their Qb's, the Jets seem mostly likely to cut theirs but you never know

[Samdari]

I agree with the consensus, I think you have to take Leinhart #1 if you don't already have a QB.

I agree. Now, you are the Texans. The tough question is, do you fit into this category or not?

I just don't see the Texans taking Bush. The best player on their team is running back, which also happens to be their deepest. They have very good depth there too, with Wells, Morency and Hollings. They are a team without NFL caliber players at many positions, how do they draft a position where they have at least 3 NFL players. I think they decide between Lineart and trading down to #3 and taking D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

[Blade6119]

i concur, Reggie Bush


equally interesting is who picks #1, Houston has almost been winning, and if they ever do it could be a 3 or 4 team tie.

p=probable q=questionable d=doubtful
1 Houston 1-11 Qb D Rb Q
2 New York Jets 2-10 Qb P Rb D
3 San Francisco 2-10 Qb D Rb P
4 Green Bay 2-10 Qb D Rb Q
5 Tennessee 3-9 Qb P Rb Q
6 New Orleans 3-9 Qb Q Rb D

all 6 teams have invested alot in their Qb's, the Jets seem mostly likely to cut theirs but you never know

Green bay wont pick another QB after rodgers last year, and i how to doubt san fran would with so much money is smith. The jets, tenn, and new orleans all could though

As for texas, i think they either take bush if he comes out or ferguson, even at #1 and even with bush in draft...Everything ive heared says this team is drooling over ferguson

[Blade6119]

Back to the draft - I went to today's Niners-Cardinals game and if Reggie Bush was on the Niners today he would have had about 40 yards on 20 carries - No RB past, future or present could be productive behind THAT line - truly the worst OL in the entire league by a long shot. I still think the Niners best bet is to trade down and start rebuilding the OL first.

What happened to Kwame Harris, the guy that stonewalled freeney way back as a frosh in college when freeney was a senior? You guys picked him first round a few years back...did he just bust?

[TroyF]

I agree. Now, you are the Texans. The tough question is, do you fit into this category or not?

I just don't see the Texans taking Bush. The best player on their team is running back, which also happens to be their deepest. They have very good depth there too, with Wells, Morency and Hollings. They are a team without NFL caliber players at many positions, how do they draft a position where they have at least 3 NFL players. I think they decide between Lineart and trading down to #3 and taking D'Brickashaw Ferguson.


The Texans have two choices:

1) Take Leinhart
2) Trade the pick

IMHO, they MUST trade the pick. They need talent everywhere. Even a franchise QB isn't going to help them now. They need to swing a deal for multiple first round picks this year and some picks next year.

If Denver decides they want Leinhart and are willing to give up this years 2 #1's, next years #1 and a couple of low round picks, the Texans must do the deal.

[Samdari]

What happened to Kwame Harris, the guy that stonewalled freeney way back as a frosh in college when freeney was a senior? You guys picked him first round a few years back...did he just bust?

They entered the NFL one year apart - never played in college....

In 2000 & 2001 (the years Freeney was a stud in college) SU did not play Stanford. I cannot ever remember them playing Stanford.

[TroyF]

Oh, I definitely think that Vic’s 43.4 yards per game help out as do the 4 rushing touchdowns on the year. Car has rushed for 25.6 yards per game and 1 touchdown. So that is 17.8 yards per game advantage to Vic and 3 more touchdowns on the year or .3 per game. As you look at the stats, it shows there is not a lot separating the two, but Vic is hyped as awesome and Carr is on most people’s “not making it” list.

As for supporting cast, Vic has Warrick Dunn and TJ Duckett for rushing. He has Alge Crumpler and Brian Finneran for receiving. Carr has Domanick Davis and Jonathan Wells for rushing. He has Andre Johnson and Jabar Gaffney for receiving. The offensive line and defense overwhelmingly go to Atlanta.

I’d say it is almost shocking how bad Vic’s stats are for someone who is so hyped. Just look at this thread. Any comments were “where is Vic” or “what about Vic” and the only one on Carr was about how horrible that logic is. I really think both are on the seesaw of either making it or not. The only thing giving Vic a slight edge in stats is a much stronger team.


You are missing some very important facts here. Vick runs for 45 yards a game with defenses geared to stop him. Carr gets his 25 because teams don't give a crap.

Vick's bread and butter isn't the pocket passing game, that's just a bonus. He doesn't always have to be 100% accurate with every pass. He doesn't have to have the pretty passer rating to do anything. He impacts the game in a ton of different ways.

Carr? He is the pocket passer. He needs to make plays from the pocket. If he can't, he's damned near worthless. He doesn't impact the game in any other meaningful way. If Carr and Vicks passer ratings are identical, he's the superior QB.

As for your post above saying Palmer is having a good year, but so is Kerry Collins. . . ummmm, are you smoking something? Collins is completing 54% of his passes and has a rating of 79.6. He's averaging 6.99 yards per pass attempt.

Palmer is completing 69% of his passes, has a QB rating of 106.6, and is averaging 7.89 yards per pass attempt.

You put freakin Eli Manning at #2 on that list based off of a very average second year and Carson Palmer doesn't make it when he's having a pro bowl calibur year?

Sorry, that doesn't add up.

Oh, one last thing. . . Plummer sucks. Ok? Hasselbeck is a superior QB to Jake. Again, in Denver, we simply pray that Jake doesn't lose the game in any given week. It's like Rick Mirer out there. Please Jake, just don't screw up and we can win. Yesterday, he screwed up. An idiotic pass INT'd in the end zone. An even more moronic pass (if that's even possible) on a 3rd and 20 from inside our own twenty he throws an INT on an 8 yard curl pattern over the middle.

Not only would I take Leinhart over Plummer, I'd take Hasselbeck, Vick, Green, Vince Young, Brady Quinn, and maybe even David freakin Carr.

[Blade6119]

They entered the NFL one year apart - never played in college....

In 2000 & 2001 (the years Freeney was a stud in college) SU did not play Stanford. I cannot ever remember them playing Stanford.

Who was the tackle that dominated freeney when freeney was a senior and the tackle was a frosh? If it wasnt harris it was another tackle taken in recent drafts

[Samdari]

Who was the tackle that dominated freeney when freeney was a senior and the tackle was a frosh? If it wasnt harris it was another tackle taken in recent drafts

Bryant McKinnie (of Miami) was the guy who notoriously silenced Freeney. But he was not a freshman.

[Blade6119]

Bryant McKinnie (or Miami) was the guy who notoriously silenced Freeney. But he was not a freshman.

There has gotta be another one, as i distinctly remember hearing this many times during a recent draft....afterwars he was highly touted and over the 4 years fell to a average to mediocre at best prospect if i remember correctly

[Blade6119]

DOLA, found it...it was Rob Petitti of pitt...heres the section on his draft profile talking about freeney..sorry for confusion

Petitti's best game so far was ... in the 42-10 loss to Syracuse in 2001. It's always hard to put statistics to an offensive lineman since knockdowns and pancakes are always a bit subjective. It wasn't about the numbers that Petitti put up in the loss to Syracuse as it was about the numbers that didn't go up. A freshman playing in only the fifth game of his career, Petitti had to face All-America sack master Dwight Freeney. Thanks to Petitti, the future Indianapolis Colt star didn't register a sack marking the first time in 15 games that he didn't get to the quarterback.

[Ryche]

If the status quo holds as it is now, my guess is the Texans will trade down with the Jets so the Jets can draft Bush and the Texans get Ferguson.

Houston HAS to draft an offensive lineman and Ferguson would be a good start. Bush and Leinart do nothing for the team if they don't upgrade that line.

The Jets came into the season thinking they were at least a playoff team. If they add Bush and get Pennington healthy (big if) they would be looking like a major threat again.

I'm not sure where Leinart lands. I don't see Green Bay taking him. San Francisco is set with Smith. Tennessee is a possibility, but they have a cheap option available in Volek if McNair doesn't come back. It looks like the teams that really could use a quarterback (Miami, Baltimore, Detroit, New Orleans and Arizona) are all bunched in the 6 through 12 spots in the draft right now. I'd guess one of those will jump up to a top 3 pick to grab him.

[Samdari]

If the status quo holds as it is now, my guess is the Texans will trade down with the Jets so the Jets can draft Bush and the Texans get Ferguson.

I think the Jets need a QB more than an RB. I think if they get their choice, they take Lineart.

In any case, if the Texans are 1 and the Jets 2, I don't see the Jets trading up at all. Take whoever is left between Bush and Lineart.

[Ryche]

I think the Jets need a QB more than an RB. I think if they get their choice, they take Lineart.

In any case, if the Texans are 1 and the Jets 2, I don't see the Jets trading up at all. Take whoever is left between Bush and Lineart.

Actually I'd agree that they should grab Leinart. But most of the draft info I've read indicates they are more interested in Bush.

[rkmsuf]

Houston vs San Fran in week 17 should be interesting.

Here, you take the ball...no here you take the ball. Ok, anyone scoring gets fined!

[Havok]

Well, it's a mute point, because Jimmy Brown was the best running back ever. Depending on what mood he was in, he could either outrun you or run over you. In one game where the Browns were playing the Cowboys, Bob Lilly came steaming in to tackle Brown. Without much apparent effort, Jimmy simply ran over the HOF defensive tackle. If he hadn't retired in his prime, I doubt anyone could have ever caught him, yardage-wise.


Jim Brown was a man playing with boys.... he was ahead of his time. The guy was bigger and stronger then half the linebackers in the NFL at the time. If JB played now, he wouldn't be nearly as dominate. No runnign back is running over a 320 pound D-Lineman now a days.

Now Barry would dominate in any era.

[dacman]

Houston vs San Fran in week 17 should be interesting.

Here, you take the ball...no here you take the ball. Ok, anyone scoring gets fined!
I'm already LOL thinking of what a flere-diagram for that game would look like.

[Vince]

What happened to Kwame Harris, the guy that stonewalled freeney way back as a frosh in college when freeney was a senior? You guys picked him first round a few years back...did he just bust?
I can't tell you how absolutely horrible Kwame Harris is. It's absurd. The dude gets whistled four times a game for penalties, and it seems that every time you turn around, he missed a block on a run, or allowed a sack on a pass. It is super frustrating.

[SackAttack]

Far as the Jets go, I know Pennington is kind of a question mark right now, but he's still young. Curtis Martin, on the other hand, is apparently due a $6m roster bonus in February, and he's on the back nine of his career as it is. I think I'd take Bush, thanks to the fact that he can have such a profound impact on both the passing and the running games, see where Pennington is at, and if you have to, go for one more season with Bollinger.

Take a QB maybe in the later rounds, see if you can find a gem, and if Pennington isn't 100% next year, start looking for his replacement.

[AgustusM]

I can't tell you how absolutely horrible Kwame Harris is. It's absurd. The dude gets whistled four times a game for penalties, and it seems that every time you turn around, he missed a block on a run, or allowed a sack on a pass. It is super frustrating.

I can verify this - I have seen every 49er game since 1976 and he is the single worst tackle I have ever seen play - even the loser FA's they have thrown in when they have injuries have been better then him.

every time I play any NFL sim game like FOF. TPF or even Madden the first thing I always do is dump Harris.

If anyone is wondering why the Niners are so bad you need look no further then the really bad first round picks made by Terry Donahue:

2004 - Rashawn Woods - complete and total bust - guys off the street are higher on the depth chart then this guy - what a waste of a pick they could have had Vince Wilfork

2003 - Kwame Harris - enough said on him

2002 - Mike Rumph - equal opportunity toast - he can't cover at CB or FS

2001 - Andre Carter - decent enough player, but certainly not worthy of the #7 overall pick

2000 - Julian Peterson - the one "star" player in the entire list
2000 - Ahmed Plummer - decent like Andre Carter - always hurt

1999 - Reggie McGrew - yeah, that'll be great

1998 - R.W. McQuarters - he was OK, for the Bears

1997 - Jim Druckenmiller - Ryan Leaf without all the poor dealings with the press

1996 - Israel Ifeanyi - will it ever end?

[miami_fan]

First off the best running back I ever saw was Walter Payton. Bad lines, bad teams, bed weather etc. made no difference to him. No disrespect to any of the other backs I have seen but Payton was and still is the guy IMO. As far as the #1 pick goes, I would go with Bush myself. I'll be honest. Something about Leinart scares me. I honestly have no rational reason for it. Actually it is not Leinart I am so concerned about. I am more concerned with the ability of the team that picks him to put him in a position to succeed.

[Logan]

If anyone is wondering why the Niners are so bad you need look no further then the really bad first round picks made by Terry Donahue:

2004 - Rashawn Woods - complete and total bust - guys off the street are higher on the depth chart then this guy - what a waste of a pick they could have had Vince Wilfork

I don't understand how Woods busted. I was ecstatic when it looked like the Niners would get him in the 16-20 range (whatever pick they had). Then they traded down and I was pissed. But he was still there. Great! Then they traded down again. Also, very pissed. But he was still there. They made two trades and still ended up with their guy. How the hell did this guy suck? He was fantastic in college. Size, speed, everything. Out here in NJ, I don't get to see all Niner games. Was it a lack of work ethic? I just can't comprehend how he is so bad as a pro. This was one pick I could never complain about.

[Cuckoo]

I don't understand how Woods busted. I was ecstatic when it looked like the Niners would get him in the 16-20 range (whatever pick they had). Then they traded down and I was pissed. But he was still there. Great! Then they traded down again. Also, very pissed. But he was still there. They made two trades and still ended up with their guy. How the hell did this guy suck? He was fantastic in college. Size, speed, everything. Out here in NJ, I don't get to see all Niner games. Was it a lack of work ethic? I just can't comprehend how he is so bad as a pro. This was one pick I could never complain about.

I'm no SF fan so I don't know for sure, but the buzz in Oklahoma was that he has had a ton of injury problems and that seriously set him back. He never had a reputation for anything other than being a hard worker when he was at OSU, so I doubt it's that.

[AgustusM]

what is so bizarre - is that there is next to no discussion of him or this pick in the media out here.

he hardly played last year, and the one thing that was reported was that he was having trouble grasping the offense (which is surprising because the niners offense is run up the middle, run up the middle, pass incomplete and then punt - what is so hard about that? ;) )

and then this year had season ending thumb surgery???? what the hell is that? guys blow out their knees and come back in a couple weeks and this guy can't play with a hurt thumb???

[Dunleavy]

THIS IS A JUST A RUMOR, but...

There is increasing speculation in league circles that the Houston Texans will lay down for the rest of the regular season, in the hopes that the franchise will land the No. 1 overall pick in the draft, with which they would then draft USC running back Reggie Bush.

Yeah, the Texans signed tailback Domanick Davis to a long-term deal earlier this year and, yeah, they burned (wasted) a second-round supplemental pick on Tony Hollings a couple of summers ago. But Bush widely is regarded as a once-in-a-generation talent, and the buzz is that the Texans aren't inclined to win one or two meaningless games and blow their shot at becoming a team that can contend in a tough division in a tough conference.

[miami_fan]

THIS IS A JUST A RUMOR, but...

There is increasing speculation in league circles that the Houston Texans will lay down for the rest of the regular season, in the hopes that the franchise will land the No. 1 overall pick in the draft, with which they would then draft USC running back Reggie Bush.

Yeah, the Texans signed tailback Domanick Davis to a long-term deal earlier this year and, yeah, they burned (wasted) a second-round supplemental pick on Tony Hollings a couple of summers ago. But Bush widely is regarded as a once-in-a-generation talent, and the buzz is that the Texans aren't inclined to win one or two meaningless games and blow their shot at becoming a team that can contend in a tough division in a tough conference.

That would explain the next four games. What is the explanation for laying down the first 12?

[scooper]

That would explain the next four games. What is the explanation for laying down the first 12?
My response was going to be along the lines of why lay down? They can obviously lose them by trying.

[Samdari]

THIS IS A JUST A RUMOR, but...

There is increasing speculation in league circles that the Houston Texans will lay down for the rest of the regular season, in the hopes that the franchise will land the No. 1 overall pick in the draft, with which they would then draft USC running back Reggie Bush.

Yeah, the Texans signed tailback Domanick Davis to a long-term deal earlier this year and, yeah, they burned (wasted) a second-round supplemental pick on Tony Hollings a couple of summers ago. But Bush widely is regarded as a once-in-a-generation talent, and the buzz is that the Texans aren't inclined to win one or two meaningless games and blow their shot at becoming a team that can contend in a tough division in a tough conference.

That would be moronic. As good as Bush is (and I think he probably will be) selecting a running back gives them by far the least marginal improvement.

[rkmsuf]

I think it's funny that the Texans feel like they have to lay down to lose games.

[scooper]

Come to think of it...how do you lay down? The players have to be on board. I won't argue that the Texans have put forth great effort this season, but I can't imagine a calculated decision by any players to lose games on purpose. Wanting to lose is a far extreme from simply not caring if you win or not. I'm sure quite a few players don't know if they will be in Houston or not next season. Some may even be playing for NFL survival.

So how exactly can a team purposly lay down without it being blatantly obvious? Play calling? Benching certain players? That would be a bit too transparant.

[rkmsuf]

Come to think of it...how do you lay down? The players have to be on board. I won't argue that the Texans have put forth great effort this season, but I can't imagine a calculated decision by any players to lose games on purpose. Wanting to lose is a far extreme from simply not caring if you win or not. I'm sure quite a few players don't know if they will be in Houston or not next season. Some may even be playing for NFL survival.

So how exactly can a team purposly lay down without it being blatantly obvious? Play calling? Benching certain players? That would be a bit too transparant.

See what happens is Dom Capers calls all the players around and says "Fellas, just keep doing what you are doing. Now go get them!"

Brilliant strategy!

[Cuckoo]

what is so bizarre - is that there is next to no discussion of him or this pick in the media out here.

he hardly played last year, and the one thing that was reported was that he was having trouble grasping the offense (which is surprising because the niners offense is run up the middle, run up the middle, pass incomplete and then punt - what is so hard about that? ;) )

and then this year had season ending thumb surgery???? what the hell is that? guys blow out their knees and come back in a couple weeks and this guy can't play with a hurt thumb???

Yes, I agree. News (or major lack thereof) on Woods has been really strange. I'm in Oklahoma and rarely hear anything on him. There was something mentioned at the beginning of the season that he was way down on the depth chart (in Nolan's dog house or something), then the injury, then nothing. I'm with you; it's strange.

[DeToxRox]

I can verify this - I have seen every 49er game since 1976 and he is the single worst tackle I have ever seen play - even the loser FA's they have thrown in when they have injuries have been better then him.

every time I play any NFL sim game like FOF. TPF or even Madden the first thing I always do is dump Harris.

If anyone is wondering why the Niners are so bad you need look no further then the really bad first round picks made by Terry Donahue:

2004 - Rashawn Woods - complete and total bust - guys off the street are higher on the depth chart then this guy - what a waste of a pick they could have had Vince Wilfork

2003 - Kwame Harris - enough said on him

2002 - Mike Rumph - equal opportunity toast - he can't cover at CB or FS

2001 - Andre Carter - decent enough player, but certainly not worthy of the #7 overall pick

2000 - Julian Peterson - the one "star" player in the entire list
2000 - Ahmed Plummer - decent like Andre Carter - always hurt

1999 - Reggie McGrew - yeah, that'll be great

1998 - R.W. McQuarters - he was OK, for the Bears

1997 - Jim Druckenmiller - Ryan Leaf without all the poor dealings with the press

1996 - Israel Ifeanyi - will it ever end?


You might as well add Alex Smith too the list.

He wasn't even the guy they wanted but Leinart didn't come out and I've never seen such indecision on a #1 pick in recent memory.

Sure it's early and his team sucks but when I see him play I don't see anything special.

And as a Lion fan I have some history, he reminds me of Harrington his rookie year.

[AgustusM]

way to early to tell on Alex Smith - though I agree I wasn't all that fired up that they got him - talk about the wrong year to have the #1.

having said that Peyton Manning, or Joe Montana is his prime would look lousy behind this OL with these players to get the ball to.

[VPI97]

Vick is not a good QB, he can run great, but cannot throw accurately and command an offense. He is the most over hyped player in the history of the NFL. Plus, his attitude is detrimental to building a strong team. He has that TO and Moss bull-crap me over the team focus.You're a moron.