Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays revisited

[albionmoonlight]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601900.html

We had a thread on this general subject just a few days ago, but I wanted to see people's reaction to what I was just reading.

Leaving aside the thrust of the article, which is people's reaction to the White House "Holiday" card, I noted that some Evangelical groups are orgainzing boycotts of stores and companies that wish "Holiday Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas."

First, it is anyone's right to boycott whoever they want for whatever reason they want. In fact, it is free speech at one of its finest moments. Don't like what Wal-Mart is doing? Shout it from the rooftops. I am not arguing that.

And this is different than wanting governmental entities to celebrate Christmas. Though I personally believe that the constitution forbids the government from establishing a religion, I can see why someone would want to present America as a "Christian Nation" and want that reflected in the official acts of the government.

But are there really people who hate the idea of a private company wishing someone "Happy Holidays" so much that they are willing to boycott the store? We are not talking about a store that says "We hate Jesus." We are talking about stores that say "No matter the holiday you are celebrating, we wish you a happy one and hope that our goods and/or services can contribute to spreading the joy of the season."

I don't have a problem with what these people are doing. It's all legal, and it does not seem to be hurting any third party. I just literally cannot understand it. I cannot fathom why it is offensive to wish happiness to a broader group of people than the limited group to which one belongs. It's like getting mad at a teacher who says "good luck to all of you" before an exam because you really don't want one of your classmates to have good luck. Or something like that.

I am just really missing the boat here.

Can someone please explain this to me. Why is it worth boycotting a store that wishes "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas?"

[Cuckoo]

I am just really missing the boat here.


No. In my view, you have a very firm grasp on the boat. It appears it has sailed on some of these people, both the "Everyone must say Merry Christmas" and "Don't ever mention the word Christmas" crowds.

[Ksyrup]

It's quite obviously an overreaction. They are taking such a statement as being anti-Christian, rather than being inclusive of all religions. Which is absurd.

Whether they want to accept it or not, these people run the risk of being thrown in the same catagory as white supremacists - people who took the inclusion of others as an attack on them. I'm not sure what else to do but shake my head in dismay/disbelief.

[gottimd]

No. In my view, you have a very firm grasp on the boat. It appears it has sailed on some of these people, both the "Everyone must say Merry Christmas" and "Don't ever mention the word Christmas" crowds.
My mom is one who gets angry when people say Merry Christmas to her. Being Jewish, I guess she feels that everyone just assumes everyone else is christian, I don't know. I never took offense to it at all. When people say "Merry Christmas" to me, I take it as basically a nice gesture and even though I am Jewish, and I know they that probably don't know that, but what I do know is that they mean basically "Happy Holidays". I guess I am in the minority.

[st.cronin]

I do understand how they feel, as I've had secular friends take offense at being wished a "Merry Christmas." A little common sense is in order, though.

[Ksyrup]

When I worked down in South Florida at a grocery store during "winter break" from college, the saying there was simply, "Have a happy."

[gottimd]

When I worked down in South Florida at a grocery store during "winter break" from college, the saying there was simply, "Have a happy."
Soon it will just be a nod.

[Ksyrup]

That was over 10 years ago. I think you determine what greeting you get nowadays by the caliber of bullet in your ass.

[Daimyo]

I always say "Happy Holidays" because my view is that there is zero reason to take the risk of offending someone when you have nothing to gain by doing so. Having said that, I'm not Christian and I celebrate Christmas. I view it 100% as a secular holiday.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I always say "Happy Holidays" because my view is that there is zero reason to take the risk of offending someone when you have nothing to gain by doing so. Having said that, I'm not Christian and I celebrate Christmas. I view it 100% as a secular holiday.
Agreed.

[Cuckoo]

I always say "Happy Holidays" because my view is that there is zero reason to take the risk of offending someone when you have nothing to gain by doing so. Having said that, I'm not Christian and I celebrate Christmas. I view it 100% as a secular holiday.

Yep. I am a Christian and view it as a religious holiday, but I always say "Happy Holidays" unless I'm well aware the person is a Christian. Of course, being in Oklahoma, it's a bit easier for me. The majority of people are protestant Christians, but I'm careful about it nonetheless.

I read these articles about Christians getting offended by people saying "Happy Holidays," but I've never known one. It's too bad because they only fuel the fire of those who think Christians are only out to convert everyone.

While I'm typically not one of the walk on tippy-toes, "Oh, we can't hurt anyone's feelings" crowd, it just seems like common sense to me to recognize that not everyone believes the same thing.

[GrantDawg]

I always say "Happy Holidays" because my view is that there is zero reason to take the risk of offending someone when you have nothing to gain by doing so. Having said that, I'm not Christian and I celebrate Christmas. I view it 100% as a secular holiday.

I would say "Happy Holidays" not in fear of offending anyone, but because I recognize not everyone celebrates Christmas. It is a time of many different holidays, so I am saying I hope they enjoy whichever they celebrate. I have no problem with "Happy Holidays" ads and such, but I think it is ridiculous when they won't call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree. It is a Christmas tree! Sell it, lighted it, and recognize it for what it is. If it offends, don't have one at all! Why is that so hard?

[GrantDawg]

BTW, I am a Christian, but do not celebrate Christmas as a religous holiday. Those who do don't offend me. Those who say I must offend me greatly.

[gottimd]

I go with the saying "its the thought that counts". When someone is just generally being nice and saying Merry Christmas, rather than yell at them, I'll just say it back to them, because I am a swell guy.

I married into an Italian Catholic family, and I celebrate christmas with them. Some of her family say happy holidays to me, and others just say Merry Christmas.

[KWhit]

Like Daimyo mentioned, I think that Christmas is now so distanced from religion that it is celebrated by most everyone. Most everybody gets the day off from work whether they are Christian or not. :)

But saying "Happy Holidays" could be looked at as just as offensive if you aren't jewish or christian. I mean, if someone truly doesn't recognize Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, etc. then wishing them "Happy Holidays" would still go against their belief system. So changing the phrase doesn't have the desired result in being inclusive of everyone's beliefs. However, I see why retailers/etc. would want to use this phrase to try to cover their bases.

But for someone to boycott a business because they want to include jews (for example) in their holiday wishes is absurd. People like that are what turned me away from religion and they keep reminding me that I made a good decision.

[Glengoyne]

I think anyone offended by someone saying Merry Christmas, regardless of the reason, needs to take a step back and determine what their particular dysfunction is. I'd have ZERO issue with someone wishing me Happy Hannakuh(sp?), or Kwanza, or Ramadan. It is a nice gesture, and no more.

I have no trouble with stores or anyone proclaiming "Happy Hollidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Happy Hollidays is a traditional holliday greeting. Its been around for years. Christians boycotting stores because they say Happy Hollidays are overreacting, but I also think they are fighting the wrong fight. The thing that spawned most of this recently is the movement to rename public displays of Christmas Trees to Holliday Trees, and Christmas events to Holliday Events. It isn't a Holliday Tree, by any stretch of the imagination. It has always been and will always be a Christmas Tree. This is really a fight against Political Correctness, misapplied to the Happy Hollidays greeting.

FWIW. I'm a christian, that believes that Santa is the real reason for the season. The fact that my church celebrates with a religious Christmas Eve service is something I don't mind either. I usually even participate/attend. I'm not offended that people place a religious significance on the Holliday.

[Cuckoo]

People like that are what turned me away from religion and they keep reminding me that I made a good decision.

This is precisely what I think is too bad. Although I don't mean to get into any big religious discussion or challenge your beliefs or anything, I do wish you wouldn't let people like this speak for religion.

[KWhit]

This is precisely what I think is too bad. Although I don't mean to get into any big religious discussion or challenge your beliefs or anything, I do wish you wouldn't let people like this speak for religion.
I probably shouldn't have even included that statement because there are certainly other reasons that I believe what I believe, but as a teenager looking around the church I was a member of and seeing a handful of zealots that were obviously very different than me did make me take a close look at my belief system.

For me, it turned out to be a positive, as I was able to decide on my own what I wanted to believe in instead of just blindly following along with what my parents' beliefs were.

[Cuckoo]

For me, it turned out to be a positive, as I was able to decide on my own what I wanted to believe in instead of just blindly following along with what my parents' beliefs were.

Well then, it's great in that regard. I've always been a proponent of people coming to any beliefs after exploration and questioning. I generally don't have a lot of respect for someone I believe is simply following their parents' beliefs without careful consideration and examination.

I just feel that too often people like the ones mentioned in this article become the "face" of religion. And the positivity of religion is placed on the same "side" as these folks.

[sterlingice]

I think anyone offended by someone saying Merry Christmas, regardless of the reason, needs to take a step back and determine what their particular dysfunction is. I'd have ZERO issue with someone wishing me Happy Hannakuh(sp?), or Kwanza, or Ramadan. It is a nice gesture, and no more.

I have no trouble with stores or anyone proclaiming "Happy Hollidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Happy Hollidays is a traditional holliday greeting. Its been around for years. Christians boycotting stores because they say Happy Hollidays are overreacting, but I also think they are fighting the wrong fight. The thing that spawned most of this recently is the movement to rename public displays of Christmas Trees to Holliday Trees, and Christmas events to Holliday Events. It isn't a Holliday Tree, by any stretch of the imagination. It has always been and will always be a Christmas Tree. This is really a fight against Political Correctness, misapplied to the Happy Hollidays greeting.

FWIW. I'm a christian, that believes that Santa is the real reason for the season. The fact that my church celebrates with a religious Christmas Eve service is something I don't mind either. I usually even participate/attend. I'm not offended that people place a religious significance on the Holliday.Ew, I agree pretty much spot on with Glen on a point. Get it off. The dirt. Can't get clean. Aaargh! :p

Wish me a happy whatever, it's a nice gesture. The Holiday thing is stupid, boycotting because of "happy holidays" is similarly stupid. Santa reason for the season for pretty much everyone in the US, etc. Scary :eek:

SI

[Dutch]

Who is really offended by somebody saying "Merry Christmas" to them? That's a bit melodramatic.

[st.cronin]

Who is really offended by somebody saying "Merry Christmas" to them? That's a bit melodramatic.

I've seen it quite a bit, particularly in very liberal communities like NYC and Madison. I can't really say I understand it.

[Dutch]

I've seen it quite a bit, particularly in very liberal communities like NYC and Madison. I can't really say I understand it.

I don't understand how you can get upset either way when somebody is wishing you good tidings in their traditional way.

[flere-imsaho]

Apparently Bill O'Reilly plans to "bring horror" to anti-Christian forces who oppose Christmas. Which I thought was in the spirit of the season, of course. :)

[GrantDawg]

I don't understand how you can get upset either way when somebody is wishing you good tidings in their traditional way.

People with a chip on their shoulder. Really the same additude your seeing in the O'Reilly extremist on the other side. Like I said, "holiday trees" are stupid, but boycotting any store that says "Happy Holidays" is just as stupid.

[st.cronin]

I don't understand how you can get upset either way when somebody is wishing you good tidings in their traditional way.

well, exactly

I actually am pretty random with my holiday wishes - I'm as likely to say Happy Hanukah or Happy Holidays as Merry Christmas. Personally, Christmas isn't particularly important to me, either theologically or socially, but the holidays that are (Easter and Thanksgiving), I certainly don't expect others (be they of common faith or not) to embrace in the same way that I do.

[Airhog]

F'n Elitists think they are too good for a happy holidays...

[Dutch]

Apparently Bill O'Reilly plans to "bring horror" to anti-Christian forces who oppose Christmas. Which I thought was in the spirit of the season, of course. :)

At some point, you gonna have to stop hating Bill O'Reilly and speak up for yourself. What say you?

[Passacaglia]

I don't understand how you can get upset either way when somebody is wishing you good tidings in their traditional way.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=17568

[Chubby]

At some point, you gonna have to stop hating Bill O'Reilly and speak up for yourself. What say you?
good thing there's no Bill O'Reilly Happy Holidays ornament for sale from Fox News, oh wait...

I could susbtitue Bill Clinton for O'Reilly in the above and it would ring true as well.

[Crapshoot]

At some point, you gonna have to stop hating Bill O'Reilly and speak up for yourself. What say you?

At some point, you're going to need to develop independent thought, as opposed to simply summarizing what Rush Limbaugh told you that morning - what say you ?

[Crapshoot]

I think anyone offended by someone saying Merry Christmas, regardless of the reason, needs to take a step back and determine what their particular dysfunction is. I'd have ZERO issue with someone wishing me Happy Hannakuh(sp?), or Kwanza, or Ramadan. It is a nice gesture, and no more.

I have no trouble with stores or anyone proclaiming "Happy Hollidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Happy Hollidays is a traditional holliday greeting. Its been around for years. Christians boycotting stores because they say Happy Hollidays are overreacting, but I also think they are fighting the wrong fight. The thing that spawned most of this recently is the movement to rename public displays of Christmas Trees to Holliday Trees, and Christmas events to Holliday Events. It isn't a Holliday Tree, by any stretch of the imagination. It has always been and will always be a Christmas Tree. This is really a fight against Political Correctness, misapplied to the Happy Hollidays greeting.

FWIW. I'm a christian, that believes that Santa is the real reason for the season. The fact that my church celebrates with a religious Christmas Eve service is something I don't mind either. I usually even participate/attend. I'm not offended that people place a religious significance on the Holliday.


Yeah, I do think its probably overreacting. A christmas tree is a christmas tree - not a "holiday" tree - but these nutjobs on the right need to get some persptive. FWIW, Christmas isn't even a frigging religous holiday (or its impact isn't limited to that)- its a commerical one. Heck, I celebrate "Christmas". ;)

[Glengoyne]

Ew, I agree pretty much spot on with Glen on a point. Get it off. The dirt. Can't get clean. Aaargh! :p

Wish me a happy whatever, it's a nice gesture. The Holiday thing is stupid, boycotting because of "happy holidays" is similarly stupid. Santa reason for the season for pretty much everyone in the US, etc. Scary :eek:

SI
Laughing uncontrollably here.

[sterlingice]

Even those who disagree completely on some things can agree on many others :)

SI

[Crapshoot]

Without changing this too far off topic - am I off base in the belief that Christmas is now primarily a retail holiday ? I don't know if we have anyone here in their 50's and 60's (Bucc would call thse guys young whippersnappers :D), but were the "Holidays"/ Christmas always this commercialized - the busiest shopping time, by far ?

[Gary Gorski]

What bothers me about all this holiday tree nonsense is that are the people bitching about a "Christmas" tree taking Christmas Day off of work and exchanging gifts with friends and family? If they are celebrating the "holiday" then are they taking time off and participating in the traditional rites of Hannukah, Kwanzaa and any other celebrations that occur during the holiday season? If they are offended by the word Christmas then they should be working on Christmas Day and wait for the government to institute Holiday Day before taking it off.

I agree that its dumb to boycott a store because they are wishing Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas but like a few have mentioned, I think it seems like a reaction to the holiday tree stuff. Our country really needs to draw the line with this PC stuff - what's next? Are people going to complain to radio stations that they should play those timeless holiday hits like "I'm Dreaming Of A White Holiday", "Rockin Around The Holiday Tree" and "Have Yourself A Merry Little Holiday" - aren't people offended by Christmas songs? Where's the outrage? Come on America - unleash your fury!!! To hell with you Bing Crosby! Lets sue the malls for forcing people to listen to Christmas music. And watch out you mall Santa's - better be sure to greet the kiddies with a hearty "Ho Ho Ho - Happy Holidays" or one of their parents will be gunning for your red suit.

Christmas doesn't have to have religious meaning to anyone - it can be all about Santa and the presents and whatever. That's cool. And as far as I can tell nobody in the history of our country has been too traumatized so far with the years of putting up Christmas Trees and greetings of Merry Christmas. It just gets old when people have nothing better to do than complain about things so unimportant as this.

[Passacaglia]

If they are offended by the word Christmas then they should be working on Christmas Day and wait for the government to institute Holiday Day before taking it off.

Oh, come on. Most offices are closed those days. I think that's what determines the day off, more than anything else. I don't know -- I'm not "offended by the word Christmas" but when I worked jobs where it was possible, I always worked Christian holidays.

[MrBigglesworth]

I think anyone offended by someone saying Merry Christmas, regardless of the reason, needs to take a step back and determine what their particular dysfunction is. I'd have ZERO issue with someone wishing me Happy Hannakuh(sp?), or Kwanza, or Ramadan. It is a nice gesture, and no more.
Io, Saturnalia! I celebrate Saturnalia, not because I'm pagan (I'm an apathetic agnostic) but because it always sounded like a cool holiday. With the debauchery that is the hallmark of Saturnalia, I doubt that the uptight O'Reilly Christians would like me wishing them a good one.

The thing that spawned most of this recently is the movement to rename public displays of Christmas Trees to Holliday Trees, and Christmas events to Holliday Events. It isn't a Holliday Tree, by any stretch of the imagination. It has always been and will always be a Christmas Tree.
Actually, the Christmas tree started out during Saturnalia when Romans would decorate evergreens to honor the god Saturn. Saturn is the god of farming, and the evergreen was a symbol for him because it stayed alive and green during the winters. If a store calls it a holiday tree, better for me, because I feel included, so I'd shop there :)

[MrBigglesworth]

I agree that its dumb to boycott a store because they are wishing Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas but like a few have mentioned, I think it seems like a reaction to the holiday tree stuff. Our country really needs to draw the line with this PC stuff - what's next? Are people going to complain to radio stations that they should play those timeless holiday hits like "I'm Dreaming Of A White Holiday", "Rockin Around The Holiday Tree" and "Have Yourself A Merry Little Holiday" - aren't people offended by Christmas songs? Where's the outrage? Come on America - unleash your fury!!! To hell with you Bing Crosby! Lets sue the malls for forcing people to listen to Christmas music. And watch out you mall Santa's - better be sure to greet the kiddies with a hearty "Ho Ho Ho - Happy Holidays" or one of their parents will be gunning for your red suit.
Stephen Colbert asked an interesting question today: what would Jesus boycott? There are two stations that play Christmas music non-stop from Thanksgiving to the New Year. I don't listen to either station during that whole time. Malls play Christmas music, I don't go to malls during the holiday because I find it annoying. It's not a real boycott, I just don't dig it. If there is a good sale I'd still go.

How could saying Merry Christmas be offensive to some people? Well, Christianity as a whole is offensive to a lot of people, and people may hate being beat over the head with the baby Jesus 24/7 during December. Christians (as a group) spend most of the year telling off gay people, non-believers, evolutionists, people with loved ones on life support waiting to die, people that like to have sex, people that believe in dinosaurs, women who want control of their own uteruses, etc. People whose view it is that they would rather not have their lives governed by fairy tales find that offensive, and would rather stay away from the religious side of the holiday.

Myself, I don't take offense to people saying Merry Christmas because I assume they mean well (now that I think about it though, they mean well by telling off the people above, so maybe that isn't a good reason...). I partake in the good side of the holiday, the gift giving, the parties, the good cheer, etc., just as I would on Halloween.

[sabotai]

Without changing this too far off topic - am I off base in the belief that Christmas is now primarily a retail holiday ? I don't know if we have anyone here in their 50's and 60's (Bucc would call thse guys young whippersnappers :D), but were the "Holidays"/ Christmas always this commercialized - the busiest shopping time, by far ? From the little bit I know of the history of the holiday in this country, the timeline looks roughly something like this:

pre-1800's to mid to late 1800's: It was primarily a drunken festival. Think modern day St. Patrick's Day. That was Christmas back in those days. It was made a national holiday for the church would recognize it. They hated the holiday because of what it was (a reason to get shitfaced).

Late-1800's: The church, along with people tired of putting up with drunked idiots every December the 25th, do their best to change the focus of Christmas from getting shitfaced to celebrating family. It works.

Early to mid 1900's: Gift exchanging becomes common for Christmas. Businesses notice and take appropriate oppourtunistist advantage of the situation that has lasted to this day. (At some point, the story of St. Nickolas is morphed into the story of Santa Claus)

Anything more specific than that, then I refer you to the several "history of Christmas" shows that will undoubtly find their way onto the History Channel.

[Samdari]

What I don't understand is Christians being upset by stores/corporations NOT expoliting the name of their lord and savior for the financial gain of their stockholders.

[Gary Gorski]

How could saying Merry Christmas be offensive to some people? Well, Christianity as a whole is offensive to a lot of people, and people may hate being beat over the head with the baby Jesus 24/7 during December. Christians (as a group) spend most of the year telling off gay people, non-believers, evolutionists, people with loved ones on life support waiting to die, people that like to have sex, people that believe in dinosaurs, women who want control of their own uteruses, etc. People whose view it is that they would rather not have their lives governed by fairy tales find that offensive, and would rather stay away from the religious side of the holiday.


And if all the malls had a living manger scene where kids could come pay homage to the Baby Jesus it would be one thing but the last time I checked it was Santa at the mall. Then again shouldn't we do away with jolly old St. Nick because that is a religious reference as well? Very little about Christmas is about Christian beliefs now and I don't see anyone being beat over the head with talk of the Baby Jesus 24/7. It's a commercial holiday that Christians and non-Christians celebrate alike and the name of the holiday happens to be Christmas. It's not called Holiday - it is called Christmas Day. We have pagan holidays that are celebrated like Halloween. I don't see stores telling people to come get their fall holiday decorations. Saying Happy Halloween could be offensive to people as well. Hell, everything is offensive to someone nowadays but that's what I'm talking about. People get offended by anything and everything and it's really starting to get old IMO.

As for your remarks about Christians as a group, you're entitled to stereotype large groups of people however you see fit and I'm not interested in taking this thread down that road.

[Cuckoo]

As for your remarks about Christians as a group, you're entitled to stereotype large groups of people however you see fit and I'm not interested in taking this thread down that road.

Agreed. Biggles comments are exactly the kind of thing I had hoped would be left out of this thread. I think it's just much easier to agree there are idiots and zealots on both sides of the equation.

[ice4277]

How could saying Merry Christmas be offensive to some people? Well, Christianity as a whole is offensive to a lot of people, and people may hate being beat over the head with the baby Jesus 24/7 during December. Christians (as a group) spend most of the year telling off gay people, non-believers, evolutionists, people with loved ones on life support waiting to die, people that like to have sex, people that believe in dinosaurs, women who want control of their own uteruses, etc. People whose view it is that they would rather not have their lives governed by fairy tales find that offensive, and would rather stay away from the religious side of the holiday.

Thanks for ruining an interesting discussion.

[MrBigglesworth]

And if all the malls had a living manger scene where kids could come pay homage to the Baby Jesus it would be one thing but the last time I checked it was Santa at the mall. Then again shouldn't we do away with jolly old St. Nick because that is a religious reference as well? Very little about Christmas is about Christian beliefs now and I don't see anyone being beat over the head with talk of the Baby Jesus 24/7. It's a commercial holiday that Christians and non-Christians celebrate alike and the name of the holiday happens to be Christmas. It's not called Holiday - it is called Christmas Day. We have pagan holidays that are celebrated like Halloween. I don't see stores telling people to come get their fall holiday decorations. Saying Happy Halloween could be offensive to people as well. Hell, everything is offensive to someone nowadays but that's what I'm talking about. People get offended by anything and everything and it's really starting to get old IMO.
I'm sure many evangelicals are offended by people telling them to have a happy Halloween. There is no law against offending someone. Seanbaby once said that he can tell how awesome he is acting by counting the number of people following him with signs.

But here is the thing: I'm not advocating a culture war against stores that say Merry Christmas. Everyone here is getting riled about the people being offended about hearing Merry Christmas, when in fact this issue is coming to a head because people are offended at Happy Holidays. It's not the anti-Merry Christmas crowd that is organizing boycotts, going on national TV every night talking about the war on Happy Holidays, and accusing the other side of a sinister plot funded by a rich Jew to annihilate a holiday. Stores have decided to be all-inclusive, it was an economic decision and not a cultural one. The ACLU is not behind it. I heard that one consevative talk radio guy is organizing a drive to send Merry Christmas cards to the ACLU, as if private free expression of ideas will rile them up!

[MrBigglesworth]

Agreed. Biggles comments are exactly the kind of thing I had hoped would be left out of this thread. I think it's just much easier to agree there are idiots and zealots on both sides of the equation.
Several people expressed an interest in wanting to understand why someone would be upset by hearing Merry Christmas. I provided that perspective, and specifically said 'as a group' to denote that not everyone was like that. But if you look at the polls, everything I said is true. A majority of Christians believe all those things (against gay rights, anti-abortion, etc, except maybe the dinosaur thing, that is just something that always bothered me about my Aunt).

Anyway, people wanted to know how it could be offensive, I gave an answer. If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.

[ISiddiqui]

I can't comprehend how in the world some wackos could think that Walmart and Target are anti-Christmas! They LOVE Christmas! But they want people spending bucks for Hanukkah and Ramadan and all the other holidays as well. They really have missed the boat here.

[Cuckoo]

Several people expressed an interest in wanting to understand why someone would be upset by hearing Merry Christmas. I provided that perspective, and specifically said 'as a group' to denote that not everyone was like that. But if you look at the polls, everything I said is true. A majority of Christians believe all those things (against gay rights, anti-abortion, etc, except maybe the dinosaur thing, that is just something that always bothered me about my Aunt).

Anyway, people wanted to know how it could be offensive, I gave an answer. If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.


Oh, okay. I get it now... Biggles is just trying to show us the other side of the issue. The article in the original post is showing us how stupid some Christians can be, and Biggles is showing us that kind of ignorance can flow on the anti-Christian side as well.

Nicely done, MrBigglesworth. Kudos.

[MrBigglesworth]

Oh, okay. I get it now... Biggles is just trying to show us the other side of the issue. The article in the original post is showing us how stupid some Christians can be, and Biggles is showing us that kind of ignorance can flow on the anti-Christian side as well.

Nicely done, MrBigglesworth. Kudos.
What are you taking issue with? That I am saying that Christianity is anti-abortion? That I am saying that they are anti-gay rights? Is that not the case? Or are you making the contention that being anti-gay or anti-abortion is not offensive to people that are gay or want to have the option to have an abortion? What exactly am I ignorant of?

Premises:

1 - Christians (again, overall as a group, differences between sects and indivuals do exist) are anti-gay rights (simplifying it to one of the things I mentioned)

2 - Some people are offended by people not wanting to allow them certain rights

Conclusion: Christianity is offensive to some gay people.

Which part of the logic is wrong? Is there a fallacy in there that I am not seeing?

[Masked]

People whose view it is that they would rather not have their lives governed by fairy tales find that offensive, and would rather stay away from the religious side of the holiday.I would say that comment is rather offensive, illustrates a complete lack of understanding of the role religion plays in the lives of many people, and undermines the legitimate point you made earlier in the post about the offensive actions of some Christians.

Maybe I am misreading though.

[Glengoyne]

I would say that comment is rather offensive, illustrates a complete lack of understanding of the role religion plays in the lives of many people, and undermines the legitimate point you made earlier in the post about the offensive actions of some Christians.

Maybe I am misreading though.
Giggles again illustrates that Idiocy and bigotry can come from all points of view.

[Cuckoo]

What are you taking issue with? That I am saying that Christianity is anti-abortion? That I am saying that they are anti-gay rights? Is that not the case? Or are you making the contention that being anti-gay or anti-abortion is not offensive to people that are gay or want to have the option to have an abortion? What exactly am I ignorant of?

Premises:

1 - Christians (again, overall as a group, differences between sects and indivuals do exist) are anti-gay rights (simplifying it to one of the things I mentioned)

2 - Some people are offended by people not wanting to allow them certain rights

Conclusion: Christianity is offensive to some gay people.

Which part of the logic is wrong? Is there a fallacy in there that I am not seeing?

I'm not here to defend every single person who affiliates themself with Christianity to you Biggles. I have no desire nor the requisite knowledge. And to be frank, I don't think you're worth it.

What I will say to you is that in a thread that was an otherwise productive discussion, you (as you have done in many other threads) came in with an offensively phrased and short-sighted generalization that essentially halted that discussion in its track.

[Raiders Army]

I agree that it's the intent instead of the actual words that matter.

[Dutch]

At some point, you're going to need to develop independent thought, as opposed to simply summarizing what Rush Limbaugh told you that morning - what say you ?

Hey! I said that first. And my car doesn't even pick up AM radio. ;)

[ISiddiqui]

What I will say to you is that in a thread that was an otherwise productive discussion, you (as you have done in many other threads) came in with an offensively phrased and short-sighted generalization that essentially halted that discussion in its track.Say wha? People ask how ANYONE could be offended by "Merry Christmas" and Bigglesworth gave a good reason why. Then, of course, you couldn't wait to jump on him for 'ruining the discussion' even though he was answering a question people had asked!

Jeez louise... what in the Hell is wrong with you?

[Crapshoot]

Yeah, I'm a little confused here. People explicity asked why anyone would be offended - and Bigglesworth provided an opinion. I happen to disagree with it, but the question was asked.

[Cuckoo]

Jeez louise... what in the Hell is wrong with you?

Edit: Okay, reorganizing my thoughts into one post. I type too fast and make little sense right off the bat. This is now much better. :D



First of all, take a deep breath, Issidiqui. You sound like you could use it. Second, go back and read this thread. It appears you may have missed a couple of posts. Then finally, really read closely the post of mine you quoted. If that doesn't quite do it, read Masked's response again:

I would say that comment is rather offensive, illustrates a complete lack of understanding of the role religion plays in the lives of many people, and undermines the legitimate point you made earlier in the post about the offensive actions of some Christians.

Maybe I am misreading though.


If you think Biggles response was simply answering a question that was asked, then wow. I could ask what in the hell is wrong with you. And something tells me we'll get no further than that.

[MrBigglesworth]

If you think Biggles response was simply answering a question that was asked, then wow. I could ask what in the hell is wrong with you. And something tells me we'll get no further than that.
The first 40 or so posts in the thread are about how people should stop being so PC, how they are 'dysfunctional' for being offended at small things, and I mention that some people think the Bible is nothing more than fairy tales:

2. A fictitious, highly fanciful story or explanation.

...which is a fact (a lot of people do think that), and everybody gets all upset and starts with the 'idiocy and bigotry', 'you're not even worth it', and just generally getting offended. So I guess everyone CAN see how someone could be offended by something as simple as a Merry Christmas. :rolleyes:

And still nobody has said a word about the actual argument made.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Fantastic quote from Jon Stewart last night in response to O'Rielly blaming the Daily Show for attacking Christmas:

I, Jon Stewart, hate Christmas, Christians, Jews, morality–and I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25 together at Osama's Homo-Bortion Pot and Commie Jizzporium.

That shit was just too funny.

He also raised a good, but obvious point about "Happy Holidays." Typically when you (I) say it, I mean the greeting to include both Christmas and New Years. It's a simpler version of trying to say the mouthful "Have merry Christmas and a Happy New Year."

[Cuckoo]

And still nobody has said a word about the actual argument made.

And that's because I have very little problem with the actual argument. I'm well aware that many Christians do and say things that offend people, and I think that's too bad.

I also think that if you took a moment to think about it, you'd realize that you could have phrased your statements much, much better so as not to sound offensive and condescending yourself.

It doesn't bother me in the least that you (and "many people") believe that. I just think that in a civilized conversation, a little tact is called for.

[MrBigglesworth]

I also think that if you took a moment to think about it, you'd realize that you could have phrased your statements much, much better so as not to sound offensive and condescending yourself.

It doesn't bother me in the least that you (and "many people") believe that. I just think that in a civilized conversation, a little tact is called for.
So what you are objecting to is my lack of tact? Because before you called me stupid and ignorant and Blen called me idiotic and bigotted. Was it a stupid and ignorant comment? If so, how was it stupid and ignorant, or idiotic and bigotted? If not, would you be willing to apologize for name calling after getting upset at a lack of 'tact'? I have no problem with being called names, as long as they fit, but people like Blen that attack and run I find to be pretty ignorant themselves.

[st.cronin]

1. It is not at all true that the majority of Christians oppose gay rights or abortion rights. It is possibly true of sub-sets of Christians (Baptists living in Arkansas, for example). It is arguably true of Christians in America, but even then I've seen data putting the numbers at close to 70% in favor of both issues. (belief.net is my source)

2. Even if it were true, those beliefs are not Christianity, are not held by all Christians and are held by many non-Christians, and to be offended by those beliefs is not the same thing as being offended by Christianity. I'm offended by the belief that it's ok to kill innocent Israeli children, but that is not at all the same thing as being offended by Islam. I have a cat named Sufi and have observed Ramadan.

3. Christmas, as has been pointed out, is a national holiday, and only partially a religious holiday, so to take offense at "Merry Christmas" is as much anti-American as it is anti-Christian. Theologically speaking, it is in fact a very minor holiday.

4. I am not at all concerned with stores wishing people Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, and I think it's silly and pointless to try to force stores to endorse Christmas. What I am specifically curious about is how wishing somebody a "Merry Christmas" is offensive when if I wish that same person a "Happy Hanukah" or a "Happy Kwanzaa" that is NOT offensive.

[Cuckoo]

So what you are objecting to is my lack of tact? Because before you called me stupid and ignorant and Blen called me idiotic and bigotted. Was it a stupid and ignorant comment? If so, how was it stupid and ignorant, or idiotic and bigotted? If not, would you be willing to apologize for name calling after getting upset at a lack of 'tact'? I have no problem with being called names, as long as they fit, but people like Blen that attack and run I find to be pretty ignorant themselves.

I have always objected to your phrasing. That is what I called ignorant and offensive. I think you lumping together a large group of people into convenient little categories was also ignorant (perhaps simply stereotypical).

I don't believe I have every called you stupid, or bigotted or an idiot. I do believe you are fairly ignorant as to many Christians (or again perhaps you're just oversimplifying, although either is dangerous in my opinion).

[MrBigglesworth]

1. It is not at all true that the majority of Christians oppose gay rights or abortion rights. It is possibly true of sub-sets of Christians (Baptists living in Arkansas, for example). It is arguably true of Christians in America, but even then I've seen data putting the numbers at close to 70% in favor of both issues. (belief.net is my source)
I was speaking of Christians in this country. From the Pew Forum:
http://people-press.org/reports/images/189-22.gif
http://people-press.org/reports/images/253-4.gif

2. Even if it were true, those beliefs are not Christianity, are not held by all Christians and are held by many non-Christians, and to be offended by those beliefs is not the same thing as being offended by Christianity. I'm offended by the belief that it's ok to kill innocent Israeli children, but that is not at all the same thing as being offended by Islam. I have a cat named Sufi and have observed Ramadan.
They may not be real Christian beliefs, but they are definitely pushed forward by the leadership of the vairous churches. The Pope is definitely anti-gay and abortion. The Fallwells and Robertsons are too, and at least publically Bush is (not a leader of the church obviously, but very influential). It becomes increasingly difficult to dissaciate a belief from Christianity as more leaders come forward procliaming that belief in the name of Christ. Whether or not they are actual Christian beliefs matters less in the forum of public opinion than the perception that they are, and a lot of people see that as the face of the church.

[sterlingice]

Ok, a bit off topic but what the heck is an Evangelical? I've heard of Catholics, Lutherans (*waves*), Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Anglicans, and a couple of other Protestant denominations. But what is considered an Evangelical?

(And the boxes above remind me of a flipping through the stations last night and seeing Dick Morris on Bill O'Reilly's tv show talking about how some poll was being parsed for political aims. And O'Reilly was just sitting there with a dumb look on his face, like this was the first thing he had heard of this. Then he says something about how the evil liberal columnists are misrepresenting things never mind that he does this ever day, the jackass. Not the content of the boxes but just the whole "you can make stats to prove anything" idea. Sorry, off on a tangent.)

SI

[st.cronin]

Well, from what I can tell of those polls, it's the Evangelicals that stand out. I bet, too, that if you add the evangelicals to the other two groups, you end up with not much difference at all. Evangelicals make up a very small percentage of Christians.

[Airhog]

So today was the annual christmas parade. Apparently this whole holiday/christmas thing is happening here in Norman. There were plenty of people that brought signs for some reason. It's ironic that only one float said "Happy Holidays" instead of merry christmas. And everyone around me would shout back "Merry Christmas"

Personally, I think people can be very small minded. The bible says not to judge others, which is what they are doing. I consider myself to be a christian, but that doesnt mean that I look down upon people that do not celebrate the christmas that I do. IMO, there is nothing wrong with saying happy holidays. I think it is like saying "Whatever you celebrate at the end of the year, I hope it is a happy time" Would other christians be unhappy if I said "Happy chanukah, Merry Yule, or Happy Kwanza?" Personally, I think you have the right to say whatever you want as long as it isn't obscene.

[MrBigglesworth]

Ok, a bit off topic but what the heck is an Evangelical? I've heard of Catholics, Lutherans (*waves*), Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Anglicans, and a couple of other Protestant denominations. But what is considered an Evangelical?
Evangelicals are the 'born again' types. Bush I think is an evangelical. They are the hardcore, 'fundamentalist' Christians, as you can see from the graphs I posted earlier. They are also the ones that have the most political power because of their organization (Falwells and Robertsons) and rabidness of their beliefs. As such, they construct much of the public face of Christianity in this country, which is why even though they are a small minority, they still are important to the nation's politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism