Next Season Updates

[saintjo]

12/21/2005 Next season updates
Next season, a number of adjustments will be made to the match engine in order to balance the game, to encourage developing players with a broader set of skills, as well as to create more tactical options for managers. Read more about it in our editorial (http://www47.hattrick.org/Common/editorials.asp).

Personally, I am very happy about these changes. They seemed to greatly help defense trainers in that defense seems to be based more on defenders skills vs being able to cover the crappy defenders with one stud one or the keeper.

biggest change people will over look in my opinion is defensive wingback now provide less defense to the center defense. 90% of the people i see play their defenders defensively, therefore they are going to see a small hit in their center defense ratings

biggest change that affects everyone is that repositioned players FINALLY are considered to be played in the middle of that position instead of being towards the side they came from. also if you pull a center defender as an inner midfielder, the remaining defender covers the entire middle instead of just the side he is on.

biggest change i personally wanted was that you can now make a winger a repositioned inner midfielder! woohoo! seriously, i hated that.

[sterlingice]

I like most of them. Going to make shopping for that defender a bit tougher. Oh well.

SI

[Alf]

I like most of them. Going to make shopping for that defender a bit tougher. Oh well. What do you mean by that ?

[sterlingice]

I'm going to have to be a bit more choosy in my wingback selection since they don't really add to central defense any more. I was thinking I may have to grab a stronger one and move my current CD to wingback since he's "only" world class. I'm going to need something to go against teams that stack the middle and a world class defender may not cut it since wingbacks played defensively no longer help the middle.

SI

[JFiz]

So what is the benefit of a WB played defensive then, I guess I'm just not understanding? A winback covers that wing defense. Playing him defensive made him drift much more to central. Why would I play them defensive now then?

[saintjo]

So what is the benefit of a WB played defensive then, I guess I'm just not understanding? A winback covers that wing defense. Playing him defensive made him drift much more to central. Why would I play them defensive now then?their wing defense is still boosted some, but yes, i agree in this. there is now very little reason to play a wingback defensive. im predicting a small rush on defenders with winger ratings. because if they arent being played defensive, they might as well add to the winger ratings.

[tucker rocky]

Next season, a number of adjustments will be made to the match engine in order to balance the game, to encourage developing players with a broader set of skills, as well as to create more tactical options for managers.

This is good news, I always thought in my mind to training other skills on players, but never pursued it.

Defense to take the ball away, PM to possess or control the ball, to passing the ball to another teammate, to scoring a goal.

The ultimate player should possess a combination of these skills, to get the most out of him.

What use is a player with Os in Pm and Ex in Stam, when the player has almost nothing in passing, defense, or scoring?

Just my 2 cents on this topic.

[tucker rocky]

I'll have to be more patient in training those other skills, when that time comes.
Right now I'm training PM, after that I'll go with passing for a season, then maybe scoring or defense.

[tucker rocky]

Another thing is Winger training, since forwards now gain from playing that side.
Tough decisions to make on this matter.
I guess I could train all the primaries, before going with secondaries. Don't know.

[tucker rocky]

If I train PM, passing could be next to train, then defense.
Forwards, scoring first, next winger, then passing.
Defenders, defense, next passing, then pm
Wingers, wing, pm next, defense, finally passing.

[tucker rocky]

I'll stop talking to myself, 'cause I'm beginning to ramble in no direction.

I'll train what's best for my team.

[PilotMan]

I believe that a quadruple dola, without stating a dola, is grounds for immediate bannination.

[Havok]

Holy 'Quadruple dola' Bat Man!!



Edit = 3,000 post!

[Raven Hawk]

I personally believe that HT is always trying to make the game as 'realistic' as possible. If you continue to chase the changes, you will never catch up with them.

Play the game like you're running a real soccer team and HT will eventually catch up to you . . .

Unfortunately there are some limitations to this as there are certain things that you need to do to be competitive. On the whole however, you can keep ahead of the curve. I like the changes that are being made. I think that my team will benefit greatly from these changes.

[PilotMan]

I personally believe that HT is always trying to make the game as 'realistic' as possible. If you continue to chase the changes, you will never catch up with them.

Play the game like you're running a real soccer team and HT will eventually catch up to you . . .

Unfortunately there are some limitations to this as there are certain things that you need to do to be competitive. On the whole however, you can keep ahead of the curve. I like the changes that are being made. I think that my team will benefit greatly from these changes.
You = great
Me = Not so much

[sterlingice]

I personally believe that HT is always trying to make the game as 'realistic' as possible. If you continue to chase the changes, you will never catch up with them.

Play the game like you're running a real soccer team and HT will eventually catch up to you . . .

Unfortunately there are some limitations to this as there are certain things that you need to do to be competitive. On the whole however, you can keep ahead of the curve. I like the changes that are being made. I think that my team will benefit greatly from these changes.
I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'll offer up the counterpoint that if you ran a soccer team as you would run a real soccer team, you'd want middies who are magnificent pm'ers and solid passers over supernatural pm, disastrous passers. Same with defenders- you'd rather have good playmaking and good passing or wing ones because the strengths make up for the weaknesses. In hattie, I'll take the supernatural team and beat you 10 times out of 10.

That's a blown-out-of-proportion example but it really highlights the fallacy that they are trying to make the game realistic. In the end, you can't do that because ultimately, the more important need of hattrick is to make the text-based-sim part of the game fair and fun with realism as secondary. That's not to say you shouldn't strive for realism but if you have a fundamental disagreement in a decision where you sacrifice a lot of good gameplay for some realism, if you're a HT dev, you have to not make that call. Good game creators have figured this out. Bad ones haven't.

SI

[Raven Hawk]

I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'll offer up the counterpoint that if you ran a soccer team as you would run a real soccer team, you'd want middies who are magnificent pm'ers and solid passers over supernatural pm, disastrous passers. Same with defenders- you'd rather have good playmaking and good passing or wing ones because the strengths make up for the weaknesses. In hattie, I'll take the supernatural team and beat you 10 times out of 10.

That's a blown-out-of-proportion example but it really highlights the fallacy that they are trying to make the game realistic. In the end, you can't do that because ultimately, the more important need of hattrick is to make the text-based-sim part of the game fair and fun with realism as secondary. That's not to say you shouldn't strive for realism but if you have a fundamental disagreement in a decision where you sacrifice a lot of good gameplay for some realism, if you're a HT dev, you have to not make that call. Good game creators have figured this out. Bad ones haven't.

SI
Point taken. HT is a entity unto itself and should be developed that way. You are correct about sacrificing realism for gameplay. It has to be done. A great example is TCY - Jim gives you the option to run BCS or Playoff style postseasons. BCS is the realistic way, although it isn't very good. Playoff style, in my belief, is much more fun. However, I also believe that a good game creator, when trying to emulate a real-life sport, has to marry the realism with the gameplay. In the sports genre, good game play without realism can be fun, but it gets tired really quick. On the other hand, good realism without good gameplay, absolutely sucks. So, yes, you're right, gameplay is more important than realism. Yet, I still want the ability to have my cake and eat it, too. Both are necessary for a sports sim to be successful.

That said, my own strategies more reflect Hattrick as a game than Soccer as a sport. The biggest example is that it is impossible to be successful without a good economic model in HT. You can't buy a bunch of new players with ticket sales. In the end, you have to have a good training program, because that is the bread and butter of your economic strategy. Since I train scoring, that means that I'm limited to the formations that I play. Technically I can only run a 3-4-3 or a 4-3-3, but may forgo training for 1 player to run a 3-5-2 in an important game. This is something that I cannot break, because it needs to be done to be successful.

Where you can break form is with secondaries. I'll give you that in today's HT world that a SN with 0 secondaries > a Magnificent with good secondaries. But HT has slowly been trying to swing this pendulum the other way. Over the seasons, you have seen changes to the game to reflect this. They amped up the effect of experience; they have amped up defense to bring it more in line with a realistic model (still not where it needs to be); one or two seasons ago, they shortened training times for secondary skills in hopes of promoting secondaries; everything that the developers have done point to changing the axiom that "Midfield is everything and secondaries are nothing."

Right now, at midfield, I'd argue that SN + 0 secondaries = WC + passable secondaries. This means that I'd buy a WC midfielder w/passable passing or passable defending for the same amount that I'd buy a SN with no secondaries (poor or worse). There is no data behind this, just a gut check. As you get to higher levels, the secondaries become very important because it's a way of adding skill to your team without much effect on your salaries. An ET forward with Solid passing is more desirable than a Mythical forward with Inadequate passing because they'll give you the same output, but the ET forward will cost you less on a weekly basis.

Point being: The developers have clearly outlined that they think secondaries are important. At higher levels, this is far truer.

[sterlingice]

(excellent post, btw)

SI

[the_meanstrosity]

I've read a few similar opinions to that of Raven Hawk's. That a lower primary skill coupled with a good secondary skill is preferable to a higher primary skill with a much lower secondary. The players are usually more affordable plus they'll be equivalent with regards to their field rating.

I haven't seen any research to back this up yet though. I'm hoping to do some experiments of my own with my next trainees.

I'm also considering the multiple training plans which is a new fad that I've seen discussed alot recently. I'm still not certain if I buy it though. You really have to micromanage the training in order to make certain not to waste more than a week's worth of training and that's a bit bothersome to me.

I'm a little confused with the discussion regarding the central defender and wingbacks no longer counting towards the middle. Is that going to diminish the wing value now? It almost sounds as if you'd want to flood the middle now since there is little help from the wingbacks. Or am I reading that wrong?

[saintjo]

in regards to the center defender and wingbacks, i personally think it should do the opposite. most people will want to play normal now to get a spread of the defense ratings, and if they are playing a wingback normal, they might as well have some winger rating as well. therefore you would be better off looking for a true wingback as opposed to a center defender just thrown out on the wing.

[MrBigglesworth]

What do you mean by a 'spread of the defense ratings'?

[saintjo]

so that the wingback contributes to the center defense rating

[MrBigglesworth]

so that the wingback contributes to the center defense rating
Maybe I don't understand the changes, but from what I gather the defensive wingback will still contribute to CD, just contribute 10% less than before.

[sterlingice]

Well, it's more than that: 20% +


5. The contribution to wing defense from CDs is reduced by 8% and the contribution to central defense from them (CDs) is increased by 8%.

7. Wing-Back with Defensive orders will lose 20% of his contribution to central defense.So, not only is there 8% off the top, but 20% after that if you play him defensive.

SI

[saintjo]

Exactly, it still contributes a small bit, but a lot less

[the_meanstrosity]

So now that the Wingbacks contribute less to the central defense, won't it be easier to attack the central defense or is there something I'm missing here?

[sterlingice]

No, that's pretty much it- it'll be easier to attack the middle or there will be people who stack the middle so you can attack the side. That said, you could never play central defenders toward wing before because it gave a negligible boost to the wing so you couldn't help cover a wing that way. Looks like you can do a little of that now.

SI

[Chubby]

Well, it's more than that: 20% +

So, not only is there 8% off the top, but 20% after that if you play him defensive.

SI
Not exactly, it's 20% less than what they were giving before as defensve so all we know is they are giving less to central D. If they weren't giving a lot towards central before, 20% of a tiny amount is still a tiny amount :)