NFL Week 17

[TazFTW]

It looks like the Raiders' offense, defense, and special teams have taken the night off.

[Rizon]

It looks like the game isn't on TV either. I was looking forward to rooting against the Faiders.

[Pumpy Tudors]

It looks like the Raiders' offense, defense, and special teams have taken the night off.
Why should the final week be any different from the rest of the season?

[terpkristin]

It looks like the game isn't on TV either. I was looking forward to rooting against the Faiders.I've got it on ESPN....

/tk

[TazFTW]

Hmm, maybe the Raiders offense has shown up.

A Giants loss is in one of the scenarios for the Cowboys to make the playoffs.

Dallas (http://nfl.com/teams/news/DAL) can clinch playoff berth with:
1) DAL win + WAS loss or tie OR
2) DAL win + CAR loss OR
3) DAL win + TB loss + NYG loss + NYG and DAL clinch strength of victory tiebreaker over TB OR
4) DAL tie + WAS loss

[Rizon]

I've got it on ESPN....

/tk

I've got ESPN News and poker. It must be blacked out due to the NFL's policy of trying to lose as many fans as possible.

[Lorena]

Well, a dissapointing season ends for the San Diego Chargers. We lost far too many close games... 7 losses for 49 points. The last 2 losses were a combined 29 points... ho hum, always next year I guess.

Phillip Rivers played a horrific game, but who can blame him, he never takes any snaps. There's lots of teams out there in desperate need of a QB, so hopefully the Chargers get some good offers to trade him so we can keep Drew Brees.

[Solecismic]

Here's the guide to Week 17 viewing. I'll be updating during the afternoon as results come in.

Carolina at Atlanta, 1:00

Line: Carolina by 4.

Carolina: A win guarantees a playoff spot.
Atlanta: A win keeps them above .500.

Carolina Fans: None.
Atlanta Fans: DALLAS, Tampa Bay, Washington.


Baltimore at Cleveland, 1:00

Line: Balt by 3.

Baltimore: A win ends the season on a three-game winning streak.
Cleveland: More opportunity to evaluate Charlie Frye.

Baltimore Fans: Oakland, Houston, New Orleans.
Cleveland Fans: New York Jets.


Arizona at Indianapolis, 1:00

Line: Indy by 7.

Arizona: Just playing for jobs.
Indianapolis: Just trying not to get hurt.

Arizona Fans: Dallas, Houston, Tennessee.
Indianapolis Fans: Tampa Bay, New Orleans, New York Jets, San Francisco.


Cincinnati at Kansas City, 1:00

Line: Even.

Cincinnati: Some incentive to play for 3-seed, but secretly know they don't want to face Pittsburgh again.
Kansas City: A win keeps faint playoff hopes alive. I really question this line.

Cincinnati Fans: Pittsburgh, Carolina, Tampa Bay, New York Jets, Oakland.
Kansas City Fans: New York Giants, Dallas, Houston, New Orleans, Green Bay, Tennessee.

Miami at New England, 1:00

Line: NE by 5.

Miami: A chance to stay above .500 and wind up with a six-game winning streak, which would tie for the fourth-longest in the NFL this season.
New England: A chance at the 3-seed, but probably are better off in the 4-seed, so here's another line I question - even at home and with some new snow on the ground.

Miami Fans: New York Giants, Tampa Bay.
New England Fans: Carolina, Dallas, Tennessee.


Buffalo at New York Jets, 1:00

Line: Buff by 3.

Buffalo: Playing out the string.
New York Jets: Losing may well mean #2 pick.

Buffalo Fans: Tampa Bay.
Jets Fans: Dallas, New Orleans, San Francisco, Green Bay.


Detroit at Pittsburgh, 1:00

Line: Pitt by 17.

Detroit: One last gasp for Joey Harrington, and maybe some momentum heading into next season. I'm sure the 17-point spread made the locker-room wall.
Pittsburgh: Win, and they're in the playoffs.

Despite the spread, this is the game I'd want to watch if I had a choice. This is also the biggest game when it comes to deciding the Bush Bowl.

Detroit Fans: KANSAS CITY, Carolina, Houston, Tennessee.
Pittsburgh Fans: New York Giants, New Orleans, Green Bay.


New Orleans at Tampa Bay, 1:00

Line: TB by 14.

New Orleans: Losing just about locks up the #2 pick, with a very good shot at #1.
Tampa Bay: Winning locks up the division and the #3 seed.

New Orleans Fans: Carolina, New York Giants, San Francisco, Houston, New York Jets, Green Bay.
Tampa Bay Fans: None.


Seattle at Green Bay, 1:00

Line: GB by 3.

Seattle: Shaun Alexander has some hardware he wants to win, that should keep the team motivated for awhile.
Green Bay: Brett Favre's last game?

Seattle Fans: New York Giants, Dallas, New Orleans.
Green Bay Fans: Carolina, Tampa Bay, Houston, San Francisco, Oakland.


Tennessee at Jacksonville, 4:05

Line: Jax by 3.

Tennessee: They played Jacksonville tough a few weeks ago, but I think they're only paying lip-service to this meaning a lot right now.
Jacksonville: They have more reason to rest people than anyone. Nothing is at stake here. This should be a lousy game.

Tennessee Fans: New York Jets.
Jacksonville Fans: Oakland.


Houston at San Francisco, 4:05

Line: Houston by 2.

Houston: The players, at least, feel they're set at quarterback and running back. Houston has lost several close games recently, and I think making it to only a tie for the worst record and not getting the first pick means a lot to them.
San Francisco: Injuries have crushed this team. I think people would like to see Alex Smith throw his first touchdown pass, but basically they just want the season to end. The 49ers can not win the first pick, only the #2 with a lot of help.

Houston Fans: Carolina, Tampa Bay, New Orleans.
San Francisco Fans: New York Giants, Dallas, Green Bay, Oakland.


Chicago at Minnesota, 4:15

Line: Minn by 3.

Chicago: One last chance for Kyle Orton to impress people, but the rest of the team just wants to stay healthy.
Minnesota: A chance to stay above .500, but I doubt Mike Tice has any chance of staying.

Chicago Fans: New York Giants, Dallas, New York Jets, Green Bay.
Minnesota Fans: Carolina, Tampa Bay, San Francisco.


Washington at Philadelphia, 4:15

Line: Wash by 3.

Washington: A win clinches a playoff spot. Otherwise, they're staying up late watching Dallas.
Philadelphia: The veterans here will be very motivated just so they and the fans don't have to watch Washington celebrate a playoff spot on their home field.

Washington Fans: Tampa Bay (believe it or not), Green Bay
Philadelphia Fans: DALLAS, CAROLINA, New York Giants, San Francisco, Oakland, New York Jets.


St. Louis at Dallas, 8:30

Line: Dallas by 12.

St. Louis: Time to end a disappointing season.
Dallas: A win and some help garners a playoff spot.

St. Louis Fans: CAROLINA, WASHINGTON, Tampa Bay, New York Jets, Green Bay, Oakland.
Dallas Fans: Houston, New Orleans, San Francisco, Tennessee.


Playoff Rundown

AFC:

Indianapolis: Has clinched 1-seed.

Denver: Has clinched 2-seed.

Cincinnati: Has clinched division; Needs win or New England loss for 3-seed.

New England: Has clinched division; Needs win AND Cincinnati loss for 3-seed.

Jacksonville: Has clinched 5-seed.

Pittsburgh: Clinches 6-seed with win OR with Kansas City loss.

Kansas City: Clinches 6-seed with win AND Pittsburgh loss.

NFC:

Seattle: Has clinched #1 seed.

Chicago: Has clinched #2 seed.

Tampa Bay: Clinches #3 seed with win; if loses, then wins division and #4 seed if Carolina loses; if loses and Carolina wins, holds #5 seed unless Washington loses, Dallas wins and Dallas holds SoV over Tampa Bay. In that case, is #6 seed.

New York Giants: Clinched Division; Clinches #3 seed with Tampa Bay loss; takes #4 seed with Tampa Bay win.

Carolina: Clinches Division and #4 seed with win AND Tampa Bay loss; Clinches #5 seed with win and Tampa Bay win; if lose, takes #5 seed with Washington loss AND Dallas loss, and #6 seed with Washington loss OR Dallas loss. If lose, and Dallas AND Washington win, out of the playoffs.

Washington: Clinches WC if wins OR Dallas loses; With win, takes #5 seed with Carolina loss; takes #6 seed with Carolina win; if loss, takes #6 seed with Dallas loss, otherwise out of the playoffs.

Dallas: Clinches WC with win AND Carolina loss OR Washington loss; Clinches #5 seed if Carolina AND Washington lose; Clinches #6 seed with Carolina OR Washington loss.

[TazFTW]

Vermeil retires. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2276661

Parcells talks to Darren Woodson about a playoff comeback. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2276586 :eek:

[Dutch]

I forgot football was on TV yesterday and missed the Giants win. That removes the doubt that Tampa gets to move on to the playoffs.

Tampa Bay being in the playoffs this year is somewhat remarkable considering many people (including myself) assumed a crippling collapse once Chris Simms took the helm.

EDIT: Oh, and Jim, in case it needs to be re-iterated, you should be paid by NFL coaches to have your weekly memo sent to them for the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season.

[cthomer5000]

Phillip Rivers played a horrific game, but who can blame him, he never takes any snaps. There's lots of teams out there in desperate need of a QB, so hopefully the Chargers get some good offers to trade him so we can keep Drew Brees.
It makes very little financial sense to trade him. Rivers rides the pine again in '06.

[Eaglesfan27]

I actually get to watch the Eagles today. I hope Jim's prediction is right (I expect it to be.)

[cthomer5000]

So what's everyone rooting for? I want the Cowboys in the playoffs badly, because I'm a huge fan of Parcells and a number of his guys that are down there now.

I also want my Jets to lose, since it should make a huge difference in where they draft.

[TroyF]

Well, a dissapointing season ends for the San Diego Chargers. We lost far too many close games... 7 losses for 49 points. The last 2 losses were a combined 29 points... ho hum, always next year I guess.

Phillip Rivers played a horrific game, but who can blame him, he never takes any snaps. There's lots of teams out there in desperate need of a QB, so hopefully the Chargers get some good offers to trade him so we can keep Drew Brees.


The Chargers are a scary, scary team. Only two things i don't like about them (assuming Marty leaves, which would be a third if he stays. OK, as a Bronco fan, I LIKE Marty being with them. . .)

1) The secondary. Despite a great pass rush and a dominating run stopping defensive line, the secondary is prone to huge mistakes.

2) Drew Brees under pressure. No, I understand every QB is going to struggle if they are getting hit all day. But Brees doesn't seem to be able to adjust at all to heavy pressure and makes some incredibly horrific decisions.

That said, they do have to keep him and trade Rivers. They also have to be careful with LT. He's a special back, but I'm not sure even he can keep this up. Over 380 touches for five consecutive years.

They have a chance to be special next year. Early on, I'd put them as a top five team for The Super Bowl next year.

[Greyroofoo]

Jake Delhomme ripped his pants

[tucker rocky]

Nice comeback drive for a TD by the Lions, after Pitt returned a punt for a TD.

[Lorena]

It makes very little financial sense to trade him. Rivers rides the pine again in '06.

Alright, Antmeister just explained it to me. Information overload, to say the least, but okay. I get it... sucks for the Chargers to be in this position... should be an interesting off-season for sure.

I just hope they do the right thing and KEEP Drew Brees... the Chargers have done some pretty stupid things in the past, so I hope they're smart about this one.

[st.cronin]

Isn't it much more likely that Brees gets traded?

[Rizon]

The Chargers are a scary, scary team. Only two things i don't like about them (assuming Marty leaves, which would be a third if he stays. OK, as a Bronco fan, I LIKE Marty being with them. . .)



What, you don't care for his 5-12 career playoff record? :D

[Rizon]

Jake Delhomme ripped his pants

Why do they keep showing it??? :(

[st.cronin]

Why do they keep showing it??? :(

I guess you don't know that women are the fastest growing demographic of NFL fans.

[Lorena]

Isn't it much more likely that Brees gets traded?

Ahhhh... my ears! Nope, this is not a scenario I wanna see.

[Coffee Warlord]

Isn't it much more likely that Brees gets traded?

Dunno how his contract is set up, but he's almost certainly easier on the Chargers to trade from a cap perspective. Thing is...I can't see em doing it. Brees has shown he's a very competant QB, and I can't fathom any team trading a good starting quarterback. It's just not a position you wanna shake up if you have someone good already there.

...unless someone wants to *really* overpay for him.

[Greyroofoo]

Joey Harrington with 2 TD passes in the 1st qtr? WTF!?!?!?!??!!

[Coffee Warlord]

Joey Harrington with 2 TD passes in the 1st qtr? WTF!?!?!?!??!!

He's due for his annual "I'll look competant this one game so some sucker keeps me around next season" play.

[ice4277]

Joey Harrington with 2 TD passes in the 1st qtr? WTF!?!?!?!??!!
I think that was the best quarter of football he's played in the NFL.

[st.cronin]

Joey Harrington = John Friesz

[cthomer5000]

Dunno how his contract is set up, but he's almost certainly easier on the Chargers to trade from a cap perspective. Thing is...I can't see em doing it. Brees has shown he's a very competant QB, and I can't fathom any team trading a good starting quarterback. It's just not a position you wanna shake up if you have someone good already there.

...unless someone wants to *really* overpay for him.
He has no contract. He'll presumably be franchised again.

And here are the financial ramifications of trading rivers:

Clarification on Philip Rivers...

The Chargers gave him a 14.25 million dollar bonus on a 6 year deal. That leaves 9.5 million of cap charge hanging out there.

If they traded him before June 1st, they would take a 9.5 million cap hit in 2006.
If they traded him after June 1st, they would take a 4.75 million cap hit in 2006, and a 4.75 cap hit in 2007.


Realistically, what could they even get for him at this point? I see him riding the pine again in 2006.
Also, his base salaries are so low that it's not really too big an issue. The bonus money is already spent, so I say keep him around as the backup. And Brees has played too well for you to let him walk or trade him. I think you keep him at #1, keep Rivers at #2, and let Rivers pout. It's what's best for your team.

[Rizon]

I guess you don't know that women are the fastest growing demographic of NFL fans.

I'm going to draw the line at Fabio becoming a sideline reporter.

[cthomer5000]

I can't see the game, but I guess Carlolina isn't screwing around today, eh?

[cthomer5000]

BY the way, I think I'd pay about $500 out of my own pocket to see Shaun Alexander come up 1 yard short of the rushing title again.

[Axxon]

Well, a dissapointing season ends for the San Diego Chargers. We lost far too many close games... 7 losses for 49 points. The last 2 losses were a combined 29 points... ho hum, always next year I guess.

Phillip Rivers played a horrific game, but who can blame him, he never takes any snaps. There's lots of teams out there in desperate need of a QB, so hopefully the Chargers get some good offers to trade him so we can keep Drew Brees.

If it helps you feel better, last season Tampa Bay lost 11 games by 80 points or virtually the same margin of loss as San Diego this season.

Of course they lost 9 the season before by a combined 65 points for the same margin so it may take a couple of seasons. :D

It's weird to think about losing 20 games over two seasons by a margin of 145. You can't consider yourself a good team when you lose that many of course but it shouldn't shock people when they turn it around fairly easily.

I'm not saying that Simms, Cadillac, Smith and Buenning aren't crucial additions for us this season, only that there was a pretty solid team there for these guys to add too.

Don't mind me, the bucs are up 14-3 and are just a tad over 30 minutes away from the NFC South division title. I'm celebrating just a little bit this new year. :)

For the heck of it, in the 9 loss season we lost 1 by 2 pts, 4 by 3 points, and 2 by 7. Only two games were we outscored by more than a touchdown. That is the perfect example of a horrible season.:(

[Rizon]

I can't see the game, but I guess Carlolina isn't screwing around today, eh?

Up until they couldn't punch it in 1st and goal from the 1. Then they screwed around.

[General Mike]

I also want my Jets to lose, since it should make a huge difference in where they draft.

What does it matter where they draft? That idiot GM you have will just trade the pick for another Doug Jolley type player.

[Solecismic]

Dunno how his contract is set up, but he's almost certainly easier on the Chargers to trade from a cap perspective. Thing is...I can't see em doing it. Brees has shown he's a very competant QB, and I can't fathom any team trading a good starting quarterback. It's just not a position you wanna shake up if you have someone good already there.

...unless someone wants to *really* overpay for him.

Brees has been one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL for the last two seasons. I can't imagine him being traded. Brees was the team's franchise player this season, so he's a free agent unless they franchise him again. There's no cap impact from franchising and trading him, however the team he's traded to would have to have room for that franchise salary (nearly $10 million).

Trading Rivers would be about a $9 million future cap impact, depending on the timing. I don't have his salary in much detail, but I believe the base gets pretty high. If San Diego doesn't intend to start him, it's starting to make a lot of sense to trade him. However, the cap impact on the team trading for him is starting to get large, and there's little incentive for Rivers to renegotiate.

It's expected Rivers will fetch a very high first-rounder in trade, so I'd be surprised if the Chargers weren't active during the draft. If the Saints have the number-one pick, I can see some sort of three-way deal developing, where the Chargers wind up with an impact player and a third team winds up with Bush.

[Axxon]

I forgot football was on TV yesterday and missed the Giants win. That removes the doubt that Tampa gets to move on to the playoffs.

Tampa Bay being in the playoffs this year is somewhat remarkable considering many people (including myself) assumed a crippling collapse once Chris Simms took the helm.

EDIT: Oh, and Jim, in case it needs to be re-iterated, you should be paid by NFL coaches to have your weekly memo sent to them for the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season.

Hehe, read my last post and you'll know why the Bucs turnaround didn't surprise me. :) As for Simms, I'll admit I was worried but at that point in the season, despite the 5-1 record, I was beginning to tire of Griese. His last 16 games he hadn't looked that good and was throwing stupid picks that were being returned for TD's ala Dilfer.

I was worried more because we were going to an untested qb than that we were losing a good one if you know what I mean. Plus, I really thought Simms was going to be a good qb one day but I expected him to have a harder trial by fire behind our pathetic Oline.

[cthomer5000]

Go Jets! Blow that lead! Pleassssssseeeeeeee~!

[General Mike]

Is this Herm Edwards last game as coach of the Jets?

[cthomer5000]

Is this Herm Edwards last game as coach of the Jets?
I reallly hope, but i dont think so.

[gottimd]

BY the way, I think I'd pay about $500 out of my own pocket to see Shaun Alexander come up 1 yard short of the rushing title again.
So ESPN posts that he broke the record and all, and you gotta love the last sentence...Alexander hasn't lost a fumble all year.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2277221

[Hurst2112]

congrats to Shaun.

[Hurst2112]

So ESPN posts that he broke the record and all, and you gotta love the last sentence...Alexander hasn't lost a fumble all year.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2277221

holiday for staff writers. they give the nfl to a bunch of interns i bet. :D

[Solecismic]

Gotta love the Lions today. If they just removed all the punt plays from the game, they're destroying Pittsburgh.

Baltimore is one of the top ten teams in the league right now.

Buffalo wanted to give Kelly Holcomb one more game to show if he's worth starting next season. Three interceptions against the Jets already in a game the Jets have no incentive to win.

With the three-seed on the line, which probably means facing Pittsburgh instead of Jacksonville in the playoffs, both New England and Cincinnati removed their starting quarterbacks in the second quarter of their respective games.

Larry Johnson is in that zone right now - he's impacting the game every time he touches the ball.

If Mike Vick is going to remain a starting quarterback in this league, he needs a receiver like Randy Moss and a downfield passing game.

[Honolulu_Blue]

He's due for his annual "I'll look competant this one game so some sucker keeps me around next season" play.
Indeed. He does this every so often. He did it a few years back in the last game against St. Louis. He looked fantastic and won the game. He is still wildly inconsistent. If the Lions do end up hiring Saunders from KC, it is likely Joey will stay on for one more year. Even if not, Garcia is a goner for sure, so Joey may stick around.

There is no real hope for next year.

[st.cronin]

Gotta love the Lions today. If they just removed all the punt plays from the game, they're destroying Pittsburgh.

Baltimore is one of the top ten teams in the league right now.

Buffalo wanted to give Kelly Holcomb one more game to show if he's worth starting next season. Three interceptions against the Jets already in a game the Jets have no incentive to win.

With the three-seed on the line, which probably means facing Pittsburgh instead of Jacksonville in the playoffs, both New England and Cincinnati removed their starting quarterbacks in the second quarter of their respective games.

Larry Johnson is in that zone right now - he's impacting the game every time he touches the ball.

If Mike Vick is going to remain a starting quarterback in this league, he needs a receiver like Randy Moss and a downfield passing game.

Vick/Mexico looks totally lost today. I wonder if he was out partying last night.

[ISiddiqui]

Vick/Mexico looks totally lost today. I wonder if he was out partying last night.Yeah, he's only 14/21 for 112 yards. I wish he was this 'lost' in the passing game most games ;).

Though he hasn't run at all.

[Hurst2112]

Gotta love the Lions today. If they just removed all the punt plays from the game, they're destroying Pittsburgh.



Now that's what i call celebrating mediocrity!

[Hurst2112]

dola....Just as Im celebrating the mediocrity of the Steeler D. christ!

[st.cronin]

Cassell in the game for the Pats. He's the guy they drafted after riding the bench his entire Pac 10 career.

[Solecismic]

The news department is now projecting winners in two contests:

Carolina, with a 34-3 lead late in the third quarter, is projected to beat Atlanta.

Kansas City, with a 30-3 lead at the end of the third quarter, is projected to beat Cincinnati.

Here are the updated playoff scenarios:

AFC

Indianapolis: Has clinched 1-seed.

Denver: Has clinched 2-seed.

Cincinnati: Has clinched division; Needs New England loss for 3-seed.

New England: Has clinched division; Needs win for 3-seed.

Jacksonville: Has clinched 5-seed.

Pittsburgh: Clinches 6-seed with win.

Kansas City: Clinches 6-seed with Pittsburgh loss.

NFC:

Seattle: Has clinched #1 seed.

Chicago: Has clinched #2 seed.

Tampa Bay: Clinches #3 seed with win; if loses, holds #5 seed unless Washington loses, Dallas wins and Dallas holds SoV over Tampa Bay. In that case, is #6 seed.

New York Giants: Clinched Division; Clinches #3 seed with Tampa Bay loss; takes #4 seed with Tampa Bay win.

Carolina: Clinches Division and #4 seed with Tampa Bay loss; Takes #5 seed with Tampa Bay win.

Washington: Clinches #6 seed if wins OR Dallas loses.

Dallas: Clinches #6 seed with win AND Washington loss.

[Rizon]

Wow, Favre hasn't thrown a pick today. Miracles do happen.

[Desnudo]

With the three-seed on the line, which probably means facing Pittsburgh instead of Jacksonville in the playoffs, both New England and Cincinnati removed their starting quarterbacks in the second quarter of their respective games.


Personally I'm happy with the Pats in the 4th seed. I'd much rather see a Jaguars-Colts scenario than a Steelers-Broncos. I think the Pats have proven they can beat the Steelers, but, the miracle take a safety game aside, they have a lot of trouble playing in Denver. I actually like their chances in Indy more, if they beat the Jaguars of course.

[Desnudo]

25-13 Miami. Looking good. I think the Steelers beat the Bengals next week too.

[Desnudo]

Wow, Favre hasn't thrown a pick today. Miracles do happen.

There you go. Q for GB fans, why isn't Rodgers playing?

[st.cronin]

Doug Flutie with the extra point!!!!!

[TazFTW]

A freakin' drop kick.

[Solecismic]

Flutie just drop-kicked an extra point. Perfectly. I don't think I've ever seen one before.

[cthomer5000]

Doug Flutie with the extra point!!!!!
http://www.fof-ihof.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif (javascript:emoticon(':shock:'))

[st.cronin]

I was sitting here doing math, trying to figure out why they were going for 2. That was awesome.

[Radii]

so who will carolina face in the playoffs? @ Tampa?

[Radii]

dola, oops, i hadn't seen solecismic's last post on the 1st page. Carolina @ NY barring a late saints comeback.

[henry296]

Steelers are in!!!!

[Ben E Lou]

Good night. This team didn't even show up today. Pathetic. I'm glad I had to miss most of this one.

And, to follow up from our conversation last week...

Q: Why didn't you or some staff member nearby have the tie-scenario/playoff ramifications at hand against Tampa?

A: "We did. Rich McKay and [vice president of football communications] Reggie Roberts researched all the possible scenarios in case of a tie as we went into overtime. Up until the last 2 minutes of overtime we were focused on a win. When we got the ball back at 1:52 and a tie looked like a real possibility I wanted confirmation of the playoff possibilities now that the Dallas and Washington games had ended. When you play on the road you don't have a direct phone line from the bench to the press box like you do at home, therefore I had [football communications manager] Ted Crews call upstairs to double check before we went onto the field for our last series."Geez. THAT is an explanation????? It is beyond belief that no one in the organization had thought about or bothered to research the possibility of a tie prior to the beginning of overtime.





Just damn. :(

[st.cronin]

Cassel actually looks pretty good. He's got some major zip on his ball, and he's pretty athletic.

[DaddyTorgo]

cept for that 2pt conversion. other than that i liked the look of him though

[Solecismic]

Going into the afternoon games...

AFC:

Indianapolis: Has clinched 1-seed.

Denver: Has clinched 2-seed.

Cincinnati: Has clinched 3-seed.

New England: Has clinched 4-seed.

Jacksonville: Has clinched 5-seed.

Pittsburgh: Has Clinched 6-seed.


NFC:

Seattle: Has clinched #1 seed.

Chicago: Has clinched #2 seed.

Tampa Bay: Has Clinched #3 seed.

New York Giants: Has Clinched #4 seed.

Carolina: Has Clinched #5 seed.

Washington: Clinches #6 seed if wins OR Dallas loses.

Dallas: Clinches #6 seed with win AND Washington loss.

[Axxon]

Good night. This team didn't even show up today. Pathetic. I'm glad I had to miss most of this one.

And, to follow up from our conversation last week...

Geez. THAT is an explanation????? It is beyond belief that no one in the organization had thought about or bothered to research the possibility of a tie prior to the beginning of overtime.





Just damn. :(

True that I'm a bit biased but the really galling thing is that the cochairman of the NFL competetion committe would break an NFL rule in order to get an unfair advantage in a game. If a person can't be bothered to follow the rules then they shouldn't be on a rules committee IMHO.

That makes it much more enjoyable watching their implosion today. The team deserves nothing more than ridicule when they can't win out even with McKay's influence which allows them to blatantly cheat even when it doesn't help them.

[Solecismic]

Bush Bowl Update:

If Houston loses to San Francisco, they pick first.

If Houston wins, New Orleans picks first.

More when the Baltimore game ends...

[TazFTW]

Go Eagles!

[Axxon]

Bush Bowl Update:

If Houston loses to San Francisco, they pick first.

If Houston wins, New Orleans picks first.

More when the Baltimore game ends...

Go 49ers!!!!!!!!

[cthomer5000]

Flutie just drop-kicked an extra point. Perfectly. I don't think I've ever seen one before.
First once since December 1941 according to CBS.

[st.cronin]

True that I'm a bit biased but the really galling thing is that the cochairman of the NFL competetion committe would break an NFL rule in order to get an unfair advantage in a game. If a person can't be bothered to follow the rules then they shouldn't be on a rules committee IMHO.

That makes it much more enjoyable watching their implosion today. The team deserves nothing more than ridicule when they can't win out even with McKay's influence which allows them to blatantly cheat even when it doesn't help them.

What cheating are you talking about?

[General Mike]

Go Eagles, Go Mike McMahon.

[cthomer5000]

Baltimore is one of the top ten teams in the league right now.
Are you still feeling the same way about this?

[gstelmack]

Flutie just drop-kicked an extra point. Perfectly. I don't think I've ever seen one before.
I think that's the first time I've seen Bellichik smile during a game that wasn't a Super Bowl victory...

[gstelmack]

What cheating are you talking about?
No use of cell phones on the sidelines.

[st.cronin]

No use of cell phones on the sidelines.

lol

that hardly seems worth getting bent out of shape over.

[SackAttack]

First once since December 1941 according to CBS.

So that's what caused the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor!

[henry296]

Are you still feeling the same way about this?

If they are playing at home then they might be a Top 10 team. The Ravens were 6-2 at home and 0-8 on the road.

[Axxon]

What cheating are you talking about?

The use of cell phones on the side line are prohibited by the NFL according to Greg Aiello, NFL spokesman.

Ok, so he should be penalized for doing it, period. Second, he did it in order to try and gain an advantage in a football game. That's cheating, breaking a rule to gain an advantage. The dude should be fined but of course, McKay is cochair of the NFL rules committee. Conflict of interest IMHO.

[Axxon]

lol

that hardly seems worth getting bent out of shape over.

Chalk up another believer in relative morality. :D

[Tekneek]

I love the Miami - New England score. So much for all the hype I've been hearing from Patriots fans that I know. Maybe this will help put a cap on all this "Everyone is afraid of the Patriots right now" and "Nobody can beat the Patriots now that they are healthy" bullshit they've been throwing around.

[Solecismic]

I love the Miami - New England score. So much for all the hype I've been hearing from Patriots fans that I know. Maybe this will help put a cap on all this "Everyone is afraid of the Patriots right now" and "Nobody can beat the Patriots now that they are healthy" bullshit they've been throwing around.

Matt Cassel says hi. The Pats were removing starters by the end of the first quarter. The Dolphins played it like it was their playoff game, which it really was.

As much as I enjoyed the drop-kick, it had to be insulting to the Dolphins.

[TroyF]

Gotta love the Lions today. If they just removed all the punt plays from the game, they're destroying Pittsburgh.

Baltimore is one of the top ten teams in the league right now.

Buffalo wanted to give Kelly Holcomb one more game to show if he's worth starting next season. Three interceptions against the Jets already in a game the Jets have no incentive to win.

With the three-seed on the line, which probably means facing Pittsburgh instead of Jacksonville in the playoffs, both New England and Cincinnati removed their starting quarterbacks in the second quarter of their respective games.

Larry Johnson is in that zone right now - he's impacting the game every time he touches the ball.

If Mike Vick is going to remain a starting quarterback in this league, he needs a receiver like Randy Moss and a downfield passing game.


Maybe my eyesite needs checked or something, but I think Joey Harrington is a decent starting QB.

As for the Ravens, as long as Boller is at the helm, they will not be one of the top ten teams of anything. He's one of the most inaccurate passers I've ever seen. He may get it together for a two or three week period, but it'll never last.

15/36, are you kidding me? :)

Larry Johnson is a horse. The AFC West is going to be incredibly tough again next year. All three teams are going to be difficult.

On yeah, there is a fourth team. . . The Raiders will likely be the same. They'll start the year 2-2 or 2-3 and everyone will say "this is the best 2-2 team in football, they are going all the way". That'll be followed by seven consecutive losses, more pictures than anyone wants to see of Al Davis in sweats and some nice "what's wrong with the Raiders" stories for NFL countdown.

[Solecismic]

Are you still feeling the same way about this?

They were playing very well. Then Boller reverted to form and threw a key pick to help throw the game away. I guess I'm still over-impressed by a team that can play great defense. Cleveland only gained 232 total yards at home today.

Baltimore's quarterback controversy just got much more heated.

[ice4277]

Maybe my eyesite needs checked or something, but I think Joey Harrington is a decent starting QB.

I would like to see him get another chance in a system that plays a bit more to his strengths next year.

[Solecismic]

Maybe my eyesite needs checked or something, but I think Joey Harrington is a decent starting QB.


He is every other game or so. If Harrington were consistent, he'd be a very good quarterback in the NFL. But you're not going to reach the playoffs if you have three or four games every year that your quarterback single-handedly loses.

[SirFozzie]

Love the Patriotz Haterz trying to claim that the subs losing by 2 points to a fired up Miami team (this was their playoff game) means they are DOOMEDEDEDEDEDEDED.

At least a couple miami fans on the board will be happy that they finished with a winning record.

[Greyroofoo]

nt

[Greyroofoo]

Baltimore is one of the top ten teams in the league right now.


Are you kidding me?

[Eaglesfan27]

Going into the afternoon games...




Washington: Clinches #6 seed if wins OR Dallas loses.

Dallas: Clinches #6 seed with win AND Washington loss.
This is a huge dilemma for me. I never root against my Eagles, but I HATE Dallas. They are my most hated team in the league. What do I do?

I guess I hope Washington and Dallas both lose today.

[TazFTW]

This is a huge dilemma for me. I never root against my Eagles, but I HATE Dallas. They are my most hated team in the league. What do I do?

I guess I hope Washington and Dallas both lose today.
NFL.com has updated the scenarios.

Dallas (http://nfl.com/teams/news/DAL) can clinch playoff berth with:
1) DAL win + WAS loss or tie OR
2) DAL tie + WAS loss
Washington can clinch playoff berth with:
1) WAS win OR
2) DAL loss OR
3) WAS tie + DAL tie
How about rooting for a Dallas tie and a Redskins loss? :D

[Axxon]

This is a huge dilemma for me. I never root against my Eagles, but I HATE Dallas. They are my most hated team in the league. What do I do?

I guess I hope Washington and Dallas both lose today.

Root for Dallas. I feel more comfortable matching up with them as opposed to Washington and what would be sweeter another NFCS team knocking them out of the playoffs? :D

Come on, you know you would if Darian was still with them. ;)

[st.cronin]

Chalk up another believer in relative morality. :D

You really think cell phones on the sidelines is a moral issue?

:confused:

[st.cronin]

Love the Patriotz Haterz trying to claim that the subs losing by 2 points to a fired up Miami team (this was their playoff game) means they are DOOMEDEDEDEDEDEDED.

At least a couple miami fans on the board will be happy that they finished with a winning record.

I had the sound off but I imagine the announcers were in that goofball mentality where they have to convince the viewers how important the game is to each team ... how the Patriots were battling hard for that #3 seed...

[Desnudo]

I love the Miami - New England score. So much for all the hype I've been hearing from Patriots fans that I know. Maybe this will help put a cap on all this "Everyone is afraid of the Patriots right now" and "Nobody can beat the Patriots now that they are healthy" bullshit they've been throwing around.

If meaningless final regular season games indicate future success, then the Bengals are really screwed.

[Thomkal]

I'd like to congratulate my beloved Cardinals for being in the Top 10 both for offense and defense. Only one other team managed that-their opponent today, the Colts. So how come the Cards didn't go 13-0 too? :( God it just sucks being a Cards fan.

[Solecismic]

Okay, here's the draft order.

Houston: #1 if loses to San Francisco, #2 if beats San Francisco.

New Orleans: #1 if Houston beats San Francisco, #2 if San Francisco beats Houston.

San Francisco: #3 if loses to Houston, see 4-12 discussion if beats Houston.

New York Jets, Green Bay, Oakland: see 4-12 discussion.

Tennessee: see 4-12 discussion if loses to Jacksonville.


4-12 Discussion (starts with #3 or #4, depending on HOU/SFO result):

#3 or 4: Tennessee (if 4-12).
#3 or 4 or 5: New York Jets.
#4-6: Green Bay (Washington beating Philadelphia would help a lot, though they hold definite edge over SFO and OAK).
#4-7: San Francisco (Dallas beating St. Louis would help).
#4-7: Oakland (St. Louis beating Dallas would help).

5-11 discussion (starts with #7 or #8, depending on TEN/JAX result):

#7 or 8: St. Louis (if loses to Dallas).
7-10: Buffalo.
7-10: Arizona.
7-11: Detroit.
9-11: Tennessee (if beats Jacksonville).

[cthomer5000]

If meaningless final regular season games indicate future success, then the Bengals are really screwed.
The Bengals are screwed, meaningless game or not.

[TazFTW]

w00t! Go Eagles!

[Tekneek]

Matt Cassel says hi. The Pats were removing starters by the end of the first quarter. The Dolphins played it like it was their playoff game, which it really was.

As much as I enjoyed the drop-kick, it had to be insulting to the Dolphins.

I didn't know what had happened at the time, only after I had made that post did I look to find out. Oh well. Did the Patriots really have nothing to play for?

[Eaglesfan27]

Awesome Play-Action TD pass from McMahon to Reggie Brown! 10-7 Eagles!

[Axxon]

You really think cell phones on the sidelines is a moral issue?

:confused:

I think deliberately cheating is a moral issue yes.

Is it a huge one, no, but I only said they should be fined.

How you can honestly consider any deliberate breaking of a rule that you are aware of not a moral issue is the real question. Is cheating, no matter how minor, not an issue?

I mean, come on, we won and we're division champs. I'm not bitching. I'm just saying...

[Solecismic]

Are you kidding me?

Like I said the first time I was called out on that comment, Boller looked like he had turned a corner recently. I was wrong and he had a terrible game. But Baltimore's defense is playoff-caliber.

[cthomer5000]

Awesome Play-Action TD pass from McMahon to Reggie Brown! 10-7 Eagles!
I'm very much rooting for the Eagles. So far, so good.

[st.cronin]

I didn't know what had happened at the time, only after I had made that post did I look to find out. Oh well. Did the Patriots really have nothing to play for?

If they had won they would have jumped ahead of the Bengals, but my understanding is they didn't want the #3 seed anyway - something about not liking the matchup. Apparently both them and Cincy were tanking pretty hard.

[Tekneek]

If meaningless final regular season games indicate future success, then the Bengals are really screwed.

Considering all the hype I heard from Pats fans started after the Colts lost a meaningless game against San Diego (considering they already had home field wrapped up at the time) on the 18th, it is about the same to me. Pats fans seemed to think that as long as the Colts didn't go undefeated they would be frightened to play New England.

[Eaglesfan27]

Root for Dallas. I feel more comfortable matching up with them as opposed to Washington and what would be sweeter another NFCS team knocking them out of the playoffs? :D

Come on, you know you would if Darian was still with them. ;)
Rooting for Darian had me so conflicted. At least I don't have that problem anymore :)

[Solecismic]

I didn't know what had happened at the time, only after I had made that post did I look to find out. Oh well. Did the Patriots really have nothing to play for?

Not only that, but they may well have wanted a loss. No one really wants to face Pittsburgh in the first round of the playoffs. Cincinnati went to Kitna early in the second quarter as well.

[Axxon]

Rooting for Darian had me so conflicted. At least I don't have that problem anymore :)

Happy holidays my friend. :)

[st.cronin]

I think deliberately cheating is a moral issue yes.

Is it a huge one, no, but I only said they should be fined.

How you can honestly consider any deliberate breaking of a rule that you are aware of not a moral issue is the real question. Is cheating, no matter how minor, not an issue?

I mean, come on, we won and we're division champs. I'm not bitching. I'm just saying...

I wasn't even aware of the rule, to be honest. It seems sort of pointless - there's about a bazillion ways to get data without a cell phone.

Of course cheating is a moral issue, I just am not sure that this is cheating.

[Solecismic]

Considering all the hype I heard from Pats fans started after the Colts lost a meaningless game against San Diego (considering they already had home field wrapped up at the time) on the 18th, it is about the same to me. Pats fans seemed to think that as long as the Colts didn't go undefeated they would be frightened to play New England.

What was encouraging is that San Diego, which uses its linebackers in a very similar fashion, played tether-ball with Peyton Manning's body in that game. Going into the last four weeks of the season, Indy had allowed nine sacks all year. That total has doubled since.

Pats fans have infinite confidence in Belichick. What the Charger game showed was that Manning could be pressured, so naturally Belichick will devise a scheme to apply that pressure.

[Tekneek]

You guys think cheating is a moral issue in sports? Do you feel the same when players hold? Even if they get away with it? The commonly held belief in sports has been that cheating is perfectly fine as long as you do not get caught. There is really NO morality in professional sports.

[Axxon]

I wasn't even aware of the rule, to be honest. It seems sort of pointless - there's about a bazillion ways to get data without a cell phone.

Of course cheating is a moral issue, I just am not sure that this is cheating.

It is against the rules. That much is true. Should it be? I don't know but I don't think so.

Still, it is. It's what they used to justify fining Joe Horn which is why he was so heated about it.

Now, is it cheating? They used it in order to be able to make a crucial game decision that had huge post season implications. It's up to each individual to decide whether that was cheating but for sure they knew it was illegal. Due to the Horn situation they had to.

I call that cheating and I'd like to think I'd call it cheating no matter who did it but I did preface the entire thought on the fact that I'm biased. What do you call it?

[Honolulu_Blue]

You guys think cheating is a moral issue in sports? Do you feel the same when players hold? Even if they get away with it? The commonly held belief in sports has been that cheating is perfectly fine as long as you do not get caught. There is really NO morality in professional sports.
Like Vladimir Konstantinov once said, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

[Axxon]

You guys think cheating is a moral issue in sports? Do you feel the same when players hold? Even if they get away with it? The commonly held belief in sports has been that cheating is perfectly fine as long as you do not get caught. There is really NO morality in professional sports.

No, we accept a lack of morality in sports but it's not always been that way. Christy Matthewson used to be asked by the umpires how he saw close plays when he was pitching and he was honest.

Rare? Of course but it's only that rare because we as fans allow it and don't complain since it works both ways. I don't like it. I can't root for a good wrestler when he cheats. I want to win badly but not at any cost. I don't like cheating but even worse, when the leader of the committee charged with enforcing the leagues rules is the one cheating and doesn't even throw a penalty flag after the foul.

[Desnudo]

Considering all the hype I heard from Pats fans started after the Colts lost a meaningless game against San Diego (considering they already had home field wrapped up at the time) on the 18th, it is about the same to me. Pats fans seemed to think that as long as the Colts didn't go undefeated they would be frightened to play New England.

If it was meaningless they wouldn't have played starters the whole game. They were playing for an undefeated season. Maybe not the tension of playing for a playoff spot, but still something to focus on.

What San Diego showed, against the Colts starters, is what the Pats have already proven, if you disrupt Manning's timing and force him to improvise, you can beat the Colts. I do think the Colts would much rather play the Bengals than the Pats, although I doubt they'll be scared to play either. Concerned would be a good word though, I think.

[Rizon]

What happened at the end of the ARI-IND game? I left for brunch after Yahoo had them scoring a last second TD to win. I come back and aRIZONa lost 13-17?

[Solecismic]

Afternoon viewing guide:

Tennessee at Jacksonville, 4:05

Line: Jax by 3.

Tennessee: They played Jacksonville tough a few weeks ago, but I think they're only paying lip-service to this meaning a lot right now.
Jacksonville: They have more reason to rest people than anyone. Nothing is at stake here. This should be a lousy game.

Tennessee Fans: New York Jets, Green Bay, San Francisco, Oakland.
Jacksonville Fans: None.


Houston at San Francisco, 4:05

Line: Houston by 2.

Houston: The players, at least, feel they're set at quarterback and running back. Houston has lost several close games recently, and I think making it to only a tie for the worst record and not getting the first pick means a lot to them.
San Francisco: Injuries have crushed this team. I think people would like to see Alex Smith throw his first touchdown pass, but basically they just want the season to end.

Houston Fans: Tennessee, New York Jets, Green Bay, Oakland.
San Francisco Fans: None.


Chicago at Minnesota, 4:15

Line: Minn by 3.

Chicago: One last chance for Kyle Orton to impress people, but the rest of the team just wants to stay healthy.
Minnesota: A chance to stay above .500, but I doubt Mike Tice has any chance of staying.

Chicago Fans: Green Bay, Oakland.
Minnesota Fans: San Francisco.


Washington at Philadelphia, 4:15

Line: Wash by 3.

Washington: A win clinches a playoff spot. Otherwise, they're staying up late watching Dallas.
Philadelphia: The veterans here will be very motivated just so they and the fans don't have to watch Washington celebrate a playoff spot on their home field.

Washington Fans: Green Bay
Philadelphia Fans: DALLAS, San Francisco, Oakland.


St. Louis at Dallas, 8:30

Line: Dallas by 12.

St. Louis: Time to end a disappointing season.
Dallas: A win and some help from Philadelphia garners a playoff spot.

St. Louis Fans: WASHINGTON, Green Bay, Oakland.
Dallas Fans: San Francisco, Tennessee.

[Axxon]

Like Vladimir Konstantinov once said, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

Of course, he's talking hockey, I'm talking real sports. :D

[cthomer5000]

If it was meaningless they wouldn't have played starters the whole game. They were playing for an undefeated season. Maybe not the tension of playing for a playoff spot, but still something to focus on.

What San Diego showed, against the Colts starters, is what the Pats have already proven, if you disrupt Manning's timing and force him to improvise, you can beat the Colts. I do think the Colts would much rather play the Bengals than the Pats, although I doubt they'll be scared to play either. Concerned would be a good word though, I think.
So the Colts lost 1 meaningful game this year... How many did the Pats lose?

[Solecismic]

Matt Mauck starting for Tennessee today. Wow. They have more to lose by winning than any team - they pick 3rd or 4th if they lose, and 9th-11th if they win.

[TazFTW]

Alex Smith throws a TD pass!

[Desnudo]

So the Colts lost 1 meaningful game this year... How many did the Pats lose?

My point was simply that there is a formula to beating the Colts and the Chargers showed that it is still applicable and that the Colts are not an unstoppable juggernaut. This isn't an argument over who has been the better team in the regular season, it's obviously the Colts. Actually this is way off on a tangent from the my initial point which was just that you can't draw conclusions from watching a team's subs lose.

[Eaglesfan27]

Rutgers Power! McMahon with a long pass (48 yards) to L.J. Smith gives the Eagles great field position.

[duff88]

Of course, he's talking hockey, I'm talking real sports. :D

:mad:

[TazFTW]

Go Eagles!

[Tekneek]

If it was meaningless they wouldn't have played starters the whole game. They were playing for an undefeated season. Maybe not the tension of playing for a playoff spot, but still something to focus on.

It still didn't make or break their entire season. The same week the Patriots poured it on against an awful Buffalo Bills team and some of their fans thought it made them the favorites to win the Super Bowl all of a sudden. I really have no problems with the Patriots themselves, it is the antics of some of the fans that drive me crazy.

[Eaglesfan27]

McMahon to Reggie Brown for their second TD pass today. Reggie has really impressed at times this year. 17-7 Eagles lead.

[cthomer5000]

EAGLES!

[General Mike]

Go Rutgers Eagles!

[SirFozzie]

Am I the only one eagerly anticipating the flere week in review post where he tries to break down all this bickering? :D

"Well if we lose and they win and they win and they win and they win.. we can pick.. #13!"

[Desnudo]

It still didn't make or break their entire season. The same week the Patriots poured it on against an awful Buffalo Bills team and some of their fans thought it made them the favorites to win the Super Bowl all of a sudden. I really have no problems with the Patriots themselves, it is the antics of some of the fans that drive me crazy.

Yes, I'm sure there are some Pats fans out there that developed unrealistic expectations based on three wins. I believe most Pats fans were wishing the media would be quiet since they really drove the story from a national awareness standpoint. As soon as they beat TB, the media haven't shut up about it. I guess they always need a story. Any true fan would much prefer that they sneak quietly into the playoffs without any hype or expectations.

[stevew]

Alex Smith appears to have gotten a TD pass finally. Quite impressive.

[st.cronin]

It is against the rules. That much is true. Should it be? I don't know but I don't think so.

Still, it is. It's what they used to justify fining Joe Horn which is why he was so heated about it.

Now, is it cheating? They used it in order to be able to make a crucial game decision that had huge post season implications. It's up to each individual to decide whether that was cheating but for sure they knew it was illegal. Due to the Horn situation they had to.

I call that cheating and I'd like to think I'd call it cheating no matter who did it but I did preface the entire thought on the fact that I'm biased. What do you call it?

Without knowing all of the associated rules and the wording/reasoning of the rule, I would consider it more like a dress code - something which protects the image/integrity of the league, but which serves no real point in making the game more fair.

[st.cronin]

It still didn't make or break their entire season. The same week the Patriots poured it on against an awful Buffalo Bills team and some of their fans thought it made them the favorites to win the Super Bowl all of a sudden. I really have no problems with the Patriots themselves, it is the antics of some of the fans that drive me crazy.

You honestly think anybody has a chance to beat the Patriots????

[Tekneek]

Rare? Of course but it's only that rare because we as fans allow it and don't complain since it works both ways. I don't like it.

Every week there are penalties that don't get called. You have fans who claim that everything is ok unless there is a flag thrown. I think the intention in sports is not to play within the rules. The intention is to see just how far you can push your violations before they start being called.

When a player goes and begs a ref to throw a flag because he interfered on a passing play and didn't get called for it, that poor honest player will be hounded by the fans and probably released by his team. Especially if he does something like that in a crucial point of a Super Bowl. Most people seem to be more interested in winning than being honest.

[Tekneek]

You honestly think anybody has a chance to beat the Patriots????

Oh, of course not. A 10-6 record finishing one game ahead of the Dolphins is very intimidating. Why should anyone be more intimidated of a 10-6 Patriots team than a 10-6 Chiefs team (that did not make the playoffs because they did not have cupcake Bills and Jets teams in their division)?

[yabanci]

Go Tennessee, Houston, Chicago, Philadelphia, and St. Louis!!!

[st.cronin]

Oh, of course not. A 10-6 record finishing one game ahead of the Dolphins is very intimidating. Why should anyone be more intimidated of a 10-6 Patriots team than a 10-6 Chiefs team (that did not make the playoffs because they did not have cupcake Bills and Jets teams in their division)?

Thank you for confessing their superiority. They are armed with the greatest coach in the history of organized sports (although his 'prevent injury' rating is very poor), and their quarterback is the greatest football thrower of all time (although it's sad he was forced to attend a sub-par university). :cool:

[ISiddiqui]

Thank you for confessing their superiority. They are armed with the greatest coach in the history of organized sports (although his 'prevent injury' rating is very poor), and their quarterback is the greatest football thrower of all time (although it's sad he was forced to attend a sub-par university). :cool:HAHA HAHA HAHA

Oh, you weren't joking?

[Tekneek]

Thank you for confessing their superiority. They are armed with the greatest coach in the history of organized sports (although his 'prevent injury' rating is very poor), and their quarterback is the greatest football thrower of all time (although it's sad he was forced to attend a sub-par university). :cool:

I especially like how I answered your question, but you didn't answer mine...unless you think your sensationalist bullshit jock-sniffing was an answer. ;)

[st.cronin]

HAHA HAHA HAHA

Oh, you weren't joking?

I actually was, at least in my own eccentric way.

[TazFTW]

Is Carr injured or is Houston playing to lose (Tony Banks is playing)?

[TazFTW]

Well shit. Tony Banks throws for a TD.

[Axxon]

Every week there are penalties that don't get called. You have fans who claim that everything is ok unless there is a flag thrown. I think the intention in sports is not to play within the rules. The intention is to see just how far you can push your violations before they start being called.

When a player goes and begs a ref to throw a flag because he interfered on a passing play and didn't get called for it, that poor honest player will be hounded by the fans and probably released by his team. Especially if he does something like that in a crucial point of a Super Bowl. Most people seem to be more interested in winning than being honest.

Agreed that most have no use for honesty and it's one of the reasons I hate people. We will kill for our "moral code" but can't even follow it with the little things. It's bs and I do hate anyone who preaches but won't practice.

Your example though is flawed. This wasn't a missed penalty not called. This is on film and the guy admitted doing it and why. He didn't even have to bother to justify it or anything. He cheated, admitted it, and was not censured. Period.

Joe Horn does the same thing and is fined $30k and he wasn't even trying to gain an unfair advantage. He was fined after the game and it should have set a precident. It was the justification of his fine. He broke a rule, it was on film and he payed the price.

Mora broke the rule, it was on film, it was done in order to gain an advantage that a rule following coach wouldn't have, his coach is the head of the competition committee and he didn't pay any penalty.

If that sits well with the majority then fine. So be it. Don't mind me when I think most people are full of shit when they talk about how moral they are and how their enemies aren't. No one takes their own morality seriously and yet we have some people on this board who thump their chests and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts who won't agree with me since it was their team which blatantly got away with it.

Keep in mind, in football terms, all I called for was a fine which is the proper and already established flag for this penalty and you're telling me that it isn't deserved, not because it wasn't seen since it was but rather ....

actually, I really don't know why you don't think it's deserved. :(

[ISiddiqui]

I actually was, at least in my own eccentric way.Yeah, I realized that, but, frankly, you sound like quite a few Pats fans. After the first SB win, they were shocked and fairly decent folks, but with the 2nd and 3rd they (not all) have become insufferably arrogant, IMO, to the point where what you joked about is something they may say seriously (and yes, I have actually heard a Pats fan claim Belichek is the greatest coach in the history of the game).

[st.cronin]

Agreed that most have no use for honesty and it's one of the reasons I hate people. We will kill for our "moral code" but can't even follow it with the little things. It's bs and I do hate anyone who preaches but won't practice.

Your example though is flawed. This wasn't a missed penalty not called. This is on film and the guy admitted doing it and why. He didn't even have to bother to justify it or anything. He cheated, admitted it, and was not censured. Period.

Joe Horn does the same thing and is fined $30k and he wasn't even trying to gain an unfair advantage. He was fined after the game and it should have set a precident. It was the justification of his fine. He broke a rule, it was on film and he payed the price.

Mora broke the rule, it was on film, it was done in order to gain an advantage that a rule following coach wouldn't have, his coach is the head of the competition committee and he didn't pay any penalty.

If that sits well with the majority then fine. So be it. Don't mind me when I think most people are full of shit when they talk about how moral they are and how their enemies aren't. No one takes their own morality seriously and yet we have some people on this board who thump their chests and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts who won't agree with me since it was their team which blatantly got away with it.

Keep in mind, in football terms, all I called for was a fine which is the proper and already established flag for this penalty and you're telling me that it isn't deserved, not because it wasn't seen since it was but rather ....

actually, I really don't know why you don't think it's deserved. :(


I honestly had never heard of the rule before this thread. If it's a real rule that actually gets enforced and serves a real purpose, I'm all for appropriate punishment. It's just that your first post was quite a bit over the top in calling it 'blatant cheating.'

[Tekneek]

Keep in mind, in football terms, all I called for was a fine which is the proper and already established flag for this penalty and you're telling me that it isn't deserved, not because it wasn't seen since it was but rather ....

actually, I really don't know why you don't think it's deserved. :(

I never actually commented on that specific situation. I was speaking in general terms. If what you said happened is what actually happened, then I agree that the result should have been what you are asking for. I was just arguing that there really is very little interest in honesty and integrity in professional sports.

[WVUFAN]

Oh, of course not. A 10-6 record finishing one game ahead of the Dolphins is very intimidating. Why should anyone be more intimidated of a 10-6 Patriots team than a 10-6 Chiefs team (that did not make the playoffs because they did not have cupcake Bills and Jets teams in their division)?
10-6 is pretty good considering they lost a majority of those games when well over 50% of their starting defense was injured. Once they got heathy, they began winning.

I'm absolutely amazed that people still doubt the 2 time defending Super Bowl Champions. You would think people would have learned by now.

[st.cronin]

Yeah, I realized that, but, frankly, you sound like quite a few Pats fans. After the first SB win, they were shocked and fairly decent folks, but with the 2nd and 3rd they (not all) have become insufferably arrogant, IMO, to the point where what you joked about is something they may say seriously (and yes, I have actually heard a Pats fan claim Belichek is the greatest coach in the history of the game).

I have never been interested in describing an entire fan base. I think Boston is the worst city in America, and has the highest ratio of cranky bastids that could use a crack in the jaw of anyplace I've ever lived, but those are the teams I root for.

[Tekneek]

I'm absolutely amazed that people still doubt the 2 time defending Super Bowl Champions. You would think people would have learned by now.

Oh, is this more of the 'The Patriots are the team to beat' rhetoric? If so, you can spare your fingers from typing out more of it because I am sure I've heard and read it all before.

[Axxon]

I honestly had never heard of the rule before this thread. If it's a real rule that actually gets enforced and serves a real purpose, I'm all for appropriate punishment. It's just that your first post was quite a bit over the top in calling it 'blatant cheating.'

I didn't either honestly until after the game when the NFL spokesman said it was. I'm not calling McKay the antichrist but he had to know it was illegal since it was only weeks ago that they'd fined someone for breaking the rule.

Personally, I think the rule is stupid as are a lot of them and would support it being changed but it hasn't been and it's a rule and one of the heads of the rule committee did it and that's why I call it blatant cheating. If another coach/GM combo had done it, not so much. They might not have known the rule either though they should. Gruden offhandedly called it illegal in his post game press conference and laughed and said no more of it. He wasn't mad, he'd won but he knew.

[SirFozzie]

Oh, is this more of the 'The Patriots are the team to beat' rhetoric? If so, you can spare your fingers from typing out more of it because I am sure I've heard and read it all before.


Really? I thought that your fingers were tired from all the "OMGTHEPATRIOTSSUXORZLOLOLOLOLOWTFBBQ!" bullshit that you were typing.

[Tekneek]

Really? I thought that your fingers were tired from all the "OMGTHEPATRIOTSSUXORZLOLOLOLOLOWTFBBQ!" bullshit that you were typing.

Already been addressed earlier in the thread.

[st.cronin]

I will say this: If the Patriots start Matt Cassel in the playoffs, and the Colts start Jim Sorgi, the Patriots will absolutely win. By 3 touchdowns.

[Axxon]

I never actually commented on that specific situation. I was speaking in general terms. If what you said happened is what actually happened, then I agree that the result should have been what you are asking for. I was just arguing that there really is very little interest in honesty and integrity in professional sports.

I understand and agree with you but even in those situations I feel bad. I want my team to win because it did, not because it was given to them. I honestly still feel a tiny bit bad because we beat washington.

I'd like to believe Alstott was in. I want to believe Alstott was in. I honestly don't know that I do believe that he was in and it makes me feel a bit put off by the win. Honestly.

I'm glad we won the division though, we deserved it and these things do balance out. That game, not so much. I guess I'm not the normal fan.

[st.cronin]

By the way, I am only posting in this thread to torture the haters, amuse myself, and bore the rest of you.

Pats 20, Colts 3

[molson]

The Patriots have announced that their playoff game v. Jacksonville will be next Saturday, 8PM - the very early forecast calls for some show showers, lows around 20.

[WVUFAN]

More fodder for the Colts fans:

New England 20, St. Louis 17 (Super Bowl Victory #1)
New England 32, Carolina 29 (Super Bowl Victory #2)
New England 24, Philadelphia 21 (Super Bowl Victory #3)

How many does Indianapolis have again?

[Tekneek]

Pats 20, Colts 3

Is that the Sorgi vs Cassel score prediction? I'd actually be more interested in your Pats/Jags prediction.

[st.cronin]

Is that the Sorgi vs Cassel score prediction? I'd actually be more interested in your Pats/Jags prediction.

Tom Brady is a very good looking man, isn't he?

[WVUFAN]

Is that the Sorgi vs Cassel score prediction? I'd actually be more interested in your Pats/Jags prediction.
No, that was the playoff score between the "invincible" Colts and the Patriots last year.

[st.cronin]

No, that was the playoff score between the "invincible" Colts and the Patriots last year.

Nice job! I wasn't sure anybody would get that.

[DaddyTorgo]

pats v. jags...early prediction off the top of my head...pats by 10. although i think they may only win by 7. regardless, JAX won't score more than 1 TD.

[WVUFAN]

I remember that game very well, wearing my Bruschi jersey in a roomfull of Colts fans.

Good times. GOD I hate the Colts.

[Tekneek]

More fodder for the Colts fans:

New England 20, St. Louis 17 (Super Bowl Victory #1)
New England 32, Carolina 29 (Super Bowl Victory #2)
New England 24, Philadelphia 21 (Super Bowl Victory #3)

How many does Indianapolis have again?

Baltimore 16, Dallas 13 (Super Bowl Victory #1)

As if this is a clear indication of who is going to win. New England has never beaten a previous Super Bowl winning team in the Super Bowl. They beat Carolina, Philadelphia, and St. Louis who have never won one. That's about how meaningful that sort of talk is.

[st.cronin]

I didn't even know Jacksonville HAD a football team. What are their colors?

[Tekneek]

No, that was the playoff score between the "invincible" Colts and the Patriots last year.

Only the most idiotic of fans would say any team is "invincible."

[st.cronin]

Only the most idiotic of fans would say any team is "invincible."

Do you remember what the line was for that game last year?

[Tekneek]

Do you remember what the line was for that game last year?

No. When did this turn into a trivia game?

[st.cronin]

No. When did this turn into a trivia game?

Well, trivia contests are more fun than morality debates, aren't they?

[Tekneek]

Well, trivia contests are more fun than morality debates, aren't they?

Not really.

[WVUFAN]

Baltimore 16, Dallas 13 (Super Bowl Victory #1)

As if this is a clear indication of who is going to win. New England has never beaten a previous Super Bowl winning team in the Super Bowl. They beat Carolina, Philadelphia, and St. Louis who have never won one. That's about how meaningful that sort of talk is.
Since the favorite to go to the Super Bowl in the NFC is Seattle, and they've never been there before, sounds like par for the course.

[st.cronin]

iirc the line for last year's afc title game was Colts -4. Meaning bettors thought the Colts were a touchdown better than the Patriots (home field advantage is considered to be worth 3 points).

[timmynausea]

Baltimore 16, Dallas 13 (Super Bowl Victory #1)

As if this is a clear indication of who is going to win. New England has never beaten a previous Super Bowl winning team in the Super Bowl. They beat Carolina, Philadelphia, and St. Louis who have never won one. That's about how meaningful that sort of talk is.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but didn't the Rams just beat the Titans in the Super Bowl a couple years before the Patriots beat them?

[Pumpy Tudors]

New England has never beaten a previous Super Bowl winning team in the Super Bowl. They beat Carolina, Philadelphia, and St. Louis who have never won one.
Say what?

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/6948/jonessbtacklestl0zv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Axxon]

Ok, since this is a hot issue :) I'll discuss rule breaking vs cheating. The rules call for a code of conduct ( not a moral code ) and a penalty for breaking that code.

A defender bumps a receiver so he can't catch a td pass. It's against the rules but it's not unethical to do since you'll pay a preagreed penalty for the action. The action isn't immoral it's against the rules and that's covered by the rules.

The receiver who traps the ball but pretends not to hoping it wasn't seen is cheating. He knows the rules and is trying to break them and not pay a penalty. I don't like it.

Most of them quickly realize they're busted and they smile and we all laugh with them. They're just scamps not cheaters. I don't like it.

[Tekneek]

Say what?

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/6948/jonessbtacklestl0zv.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Heh. ;) That's how much attention I've been paying the whole time in this thread. Bullshit finally got called out completely. I was trying to kill time hoping the morality issue would be debated.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Heh. ;) That's how much attention I've been paying the whole time in this thread. Bullshit finally got called out completely. I was trying to kill time hoping the morality issue would be debated.
I have no interest at all in the discussion that was going on, so I wasn't trying to call out bullshit. Honestly, I've thought the whole Patriots-Colts talk for the past few years has been bullshit. :)

[WVUFAN]

Heh. ;) That's how much attention I've been paying the whole time in this thread. Bullshit finally got called out completely. I was trying to kill time hoping the morality issue would be debated.
Um ... dude, you STARTED this thread with your asinine comments. Let me refresh your memory:


I love the Miami - New England score. So much for all the hype I've been hearing from Patriots fans that I know. Maybe this will help put a cap on all this "Everyone is afraid of the Patriots right now" and "Nobody can beat the Patriots now that they are healthy" bullshit they've been throwing around.



<!-- / message -->

[Tekneek]

I have no interest at all in the discussion that was going on, so I wasn't trying to call out bullshit. Honestly, I've thought the whole Patriots-Colts talk for the past few years has been bullshit. :)

Sometimes it seems like those are the only two teams you are allowed to be a fan of. If you don't like one, you must be a fan of the other.

[Tekneek]

Um ... dude, you STARTED this thread with your asinine comments. Let me refresh your memory:





<!-- / message -->

Which I explained later. Maybe you could read more of the thread. We moved on from that a long time ago, smartguy. I'm sorry if it makes you angry that I was just trying to stir the pot. I admit I didn't make it that obvious.

[Tekneek]

A defender bumps a receiver so he can't catch a td pass. It's against the rules but it's not unethical to do since you'll pay a preagreed penalty for the action. The action isn't immoral it's against the rules and that's covered by the rules.

So, it isn't immoral to try and hurt the quarterback because they have that covered with the 'roughing the passer' penalty? It is ok to try twist a guy's head around by the facemask because they have a 15-yard facemask penalty in the game? What about a guy who does those things and then tries to claim they were clean plays after the game? Does that guy then reveal he is immoral when he lies about his actions?

[WVUFAN]

Which I explained later. Maybe you could read more of the thread. We moved on from that a long time ago, smartguy.
Funny. I DID read the whole thread, including this:


Oh, of course not. A 10-6 record finishing one game ahead of the Dolphins is very intimidating. Why should anyone be more intimidated of a 10-6 Patriots team than a 10-6 Chiefs team (that did not make the playoffs because they did not have cupcake Bills and Jets teams in their division)?
Which is yet another asinine comment. It's funny how you profess to not dislike the Pats but you go out of your way to insult them. You MUST be a Colts fan.

[Tekneek]

Funny. I DID read the whole thread, including this:

[/i]
Which is yet another asinine comment. It's funny how you profess to not dislike the Pats but you go out of your way to insult them. You MUST be a Colts fan.


I never said I loved either team. The Dolphins are my favorite team. Anything else?

EDIT... I don't like the Patriots, but it has everything to do with them being a divisional rival of the Dolphins and less to do with the Colts or anyother team on the planet.

[JeeberD]

Come on, Eagles, we need you to put this one away! (Ugh, it feels so WRONG rooting for them...why did the Falcons have to lay an egg this afternoon?)

[Desnudo]

Yeah, I realized that, but, frankly, you sound like quite a few Pats fans. After the first SB win, they were shocked and fairly decent folks, but with the 2nd and 3rd they (not all) have become insufferably arrogant, IMO, to the point where what you joked about is something they may say seriously (and yes, I have actually heard a Pats fan claim Belichek is the greatest coach in the history of the game).

Why is that such a crazy argument? Not many coaches have won three SBs. If he wins a fourth, it will be hard to argue against him.

[Tekneek]

Come on, Eagles, we need you to put this one away! (Ugh, it feels so WRONG rooting for them...why did the Falcons have to lay an egg this afternoon?)

The Falcons, as a franchise, simply cannot put together two winning seasons in a row.

[WVUFAN]

I never said I loved either team. The Dolphins are my favorite team. Anything else?

EDIT... I don't like the Patriots, but it has everything to do with them being a divisional rival of the Dolphins and less to do with the Colts or anyother team on the planet.Sure. New England Patriots -- AFC East Champions for the third straight year.

EDIT: I'm not angry. I am, however, a little tired of the Pats not getting the respect they deserve. :-)

[st.cronin]

I never said I loved either team. The Dolphins are my favorite team. Anything else?

EDIT... I don't like the Patriots, but it has everything to do with them being a divisional rival of the Dolphins and less to do with the Colts or anyother team on the planet.

Imagine how cranky you'd be if your team had LOST to a 10-6 divisional rival led by their 3rd string qb (who, by the way, didn't start a single game in college).

[Desnudo]

I never said I loved either team. The Dolphins are my favorite team. Anything else?

That explains the underlying Patriots hatred. You should have said that up front, it would have saved a lot of posting.

The reason the Colts and Patriots fans seem to dominate these discussions is that you rarely see another storyline that has lasted as long as this one. Or it ends up in its own thread, which Lions fans seem to prefer doing.

[Tekneek]

Sure. New England Patriots -- AFC East Champions for the third straight year.

In a division that pretty much sucked. Pardon me for being underwhelmed by the accomplishment.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Sometimes it seems like those are the only two teams you are allowed to be a fan of. If you don't like one, you must be a fan of the other.It really does seem that way sometimes. The Colts are a great team, and the Patriots have won those recent Super Bowls, but there are a lot of Broncos fans (like me), Bengals fans, Jaguars fans, and Steelers fans who are looking forward to the AFC playoffs, too. As much as I like the Colts as people, I don't like them as a football team because of what they've done to the Broncos in the playoffs recently. I'm pretty sick of the Patriots and would really rather see any AFC team besides them or the Colts win the Super Bowl this year.

Even with all that said, I don't have anything against the fans of either team, and maybe I'm just not fanatic enough, but I don't get why people lose their minds over comments that have been made a hundred times before. Patriots fans say that the Colts can't win the big games. Colts fans (and others) say that they're tired of the Patriots being called unbeatable. So what? Why all the rage?

[Tekneek]

Imagine how cranky you'd be if your team had LOST to a 10-6 divisional rival led by their 3rd string qb (who, by the way, didn't start a single game in college).

Even if the Dolphins had lost today, I never expected that good of a record for this season. I only thought the win was meaningful when I figured the Patriots wanted to win the game. Once I discovered that they did not care, it meant nothing to me. A loss, regardless of who was QB, would have meant little for this season.

[TazFTW]

Freakin' Eagles.

[Eaglesfan27]

Just disgusting.

[Tekneek]

So what? Why all the rage?

It helps kill the time. It's why the NFL makes a lot of money.

[Senator]

You know, everything inside of me was saying, "cheering for this miserable Eagle team is a recipe for defeat". They win when I don't want them to, and lose when I want them to win. God, I hate this team.

[TazFTW]

I love John Hall.

[Axxon]

So, it isn't immoral to try and hurt the quarterback because they have that covered with the 'roughing the passer' penalty? It is ok to try twist a guy's head around by the facemask because they have a 15-yard facemask penalty in the game? What about a guy who does those things and then tries to claim they were clean plays after the game? Does that guy then reveal he is immoral when he lies about his actions?

Well, I'll admit that the first thought crossed my mind but there needs to be a level beyond merely breaking the rule and deliberately attempting to injure someone and that level needs a much harsher enforcement and I believe there already is.

I was simply covering a specific situation. Your adding your own addendum, ie the attempt to injure, while interesting, is a totally different situation to the one I described.

The answer to part two is yes, if he lies about what he did it's immoral. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean since that sounds like too simple a question.

[Pumpy Tudors]

http://www.gribblenation.net/personal/jp/2005wk17-cbs.gif

Thanks to the blowout in Jacksonville, we folks here in the Pittsburgh area have been switched to the Houston-San Francisco game. :D I'm probably the only person in the country who's actually WATCHING this right now.

[WVUFAN]

It really does seem that way sometimes. The Colts are a great team, and the Patriots have won those recent Super Bowls, but there are a lot of Broncos fans (like me), Bengals fans, Jaguars fans, and Steelers fans who are looking forward to the AFC playoffs, too. As much as I like the Colts as people, I don't like them as a football team because of what they've done to the Broncos in the playoffs recently. I'm pretty sick of the Patriots and would really rather see any AFC team besides them or the Colts win the Super Bowl this year. Well, I'm a diehard Pats fan, and have been since I was 7 (I'm 34), so one of the reasons us Pats fans celebrate and are fanatical about them is the many years we endured as the bottom feeders of the league (1991 Pats are considered one of the 10 worst teams in NFL history by many pundits). We have some success now and we will live it up while we have it. If the Pats were to lose, I'd rather see the Steelers or the Broncoes take it. I'm loyal to the AFC taking the title -- except the Colts.

My dislike of the Colts stem not from the Pats/Colts feud, but from my intense dislike of Peyton Manning. When the Pats lose (or when the Broncos lose), you don't see the QB's actively blaming other players, but when Manning throws a pick, (at least I) get a distinct impression he immediately blames someone else for the pick. That sort of self-indulgent egoism irritates me, and I delight when he loses.

[JeeberD]

Fuckin' Eagles are fuckin' imploding! :mad:

[Senator]

McMahon reminds me of Gene Wilder trying to play quarterback. And Jon Runyan is a lard ass.

[Tekneek]

The answer to part two is yes, if he lies about what he did it's immoral. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean since that sounds like too simple a question.

Ok. I thought you were saying that if there is an established penalty in the game for a particular action then it is not immoral to commit that act, if I follow correctly. I'm just wondering if it is possible that there are immoral acts 'within the game' that became so prevalent that a penalty had to be created to deal with them. That they are not just "a part of the game" but rather something had to be done to deal with it instead of just waiting for them to be fined on Monday/Tuesday.

[Philliesfan980]

We're in big trouble for a few years. (from an Eagles Fan).

[Philliesfan980]

Dola

Who gives a shit about your penalties/moral crap. I came to this thread expecting talk about Week 17 football. Please start a new thread.

[st.cronin]

We're in big trouble for a few years. (from an Eagles Fan).

I disagree. I think you'll be back in the playoffs next year.

[TazFTW]

Oh boy. Koy Detmer is in.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Well, I'm a diehard Pats fan, and have been since I was 7 (I'm 34), so one of the reasons us Pats fans celebrate and are fanatical about them is the many years we endured as the bottom feeders of the league (1991 Pats are considered one of the 10 worst teams in NFL history by many pundits). We have some success now and we will live it up while we have it. If the Pats were to lose, I'd rather see the Steelers or the Broncoes take it. I'm loyal to the AFC taking the title -- except the Colts.
Oh, I can understand all of that. I loved it when the Broncos finally won a Super Bowl, and I was ecstatic when they won another. My comments aren't exclusive to Patriots fans, but I just get amazed at how angry people get over someone insulting their favorite team. When I lived in New Orleans, I used to get into it with Saints fans. Sure, the Saints are an easy target, but I don't think I knew anybody who got upset when I poked fun at them. I didn't get mad when they came back at me because the Broncos haven't won a playoff game since Elway retired.

Sorry, I don't claim to be better than anybody else. I just think it's funny to see people get all bent out of shape with anger over this kind of stuff. I don't know any Raiders or Chiefs fans personally, but I don't think I'd get into a heated argument with any of them just because we hate each other's teams. Like I said, maybe I'm just not fanatical enough, but I just don't get it. If it's fun for everybody else, though, enjoy. :)

[Pumpy Tudors]

Texans and Niners are going to overtime!

[st.cronin]

Oh, I can understand all of that. I loved it when the Broncos finally won a Super Bowl, and I was ecstatic when they won another. My comments aren't exclusive to Patriots fans, but I just get amazed at how angry people get over someone insulting their favorite team. When I lived in New Orleans, I used to get into it with Saints fans. Sure, the Saints are an easy target, but I don't think I knew anybody who got upset when I poked fun at them. I didn't get mad when they came back at me because the Broncos haven't won a playoff game since Elway retired.

Sorry, I don't claim to be better than anybody else. I just think it's funny to see people get all bent out of shape with anger over this kind of stuff. I don't know any Raiders or Chiefs fans personally, but I don't think I'd get into a heated argument with any of them just because we hate each other's teams. Like I said, maybe I'm just not fanatical enough, but I just don't get it. If it's fun for everybody else, though, enjoy. :)

I don't get bent out of shape - I was actually trying to mock the very thing you're describing. I agree with you.

[Philliesfan980]

Oh boy. Koy Detmer is in.

We should have had him in there all along. Mike looks like he has no clue how to play the QB position in general. Sure Koy throws like a girl, but at least he has an understanding of this offense.

[Desnudo]

My dislike of the Colts stem not from the Pats/Colts feud, but from my intense dislike of Peyton Manning. When the Pats lose (or when the Broncos lose), you don't see the QB's actively blaming other players, but when Manning throws a pick, (at least I) get a distinct impression he immediately blames someone else for the pick. That sort of self-indulgent egoism irritates me, and I delight when he loses.

I think you summed up my feelings on the subject pretty nicely. I think Tony Dungy and the Colts are a class act, besides Manning. If Manning were an officer in the Army, I picture him getting wounded by "accidental" friendly fire. It's kind of a unique rivalry in the sense that I don't think many Pats fans actively root against the Colts so much as they root against Manning (see the "cut that meat" taunt last season). Like if Carson Palmer QB'd them, I don't think you'd see half as much ire.

[cthomer5000]

Even I've never like Mike, even while he was at Rutgers. Fuck em, go Koy!

[Tekneek]

My dislike of the Colts stem not from the Pats/Colts feud, but from my intense dislike of Peyton Manning. When the Pats lose (or when the Broncos lose), you don't see the QB's actively blaming other players, but when Manning throws a pick, (at least I) get a distinct impression he immediately blames someone else for the pick. That sort of self-indulgent egoism irritates me, and I delight when he loses.

Have you felt that way for this entire career, or just since the rivalry started to heat up? He has thrown 130 INTs in his career. Do you think he has really tried to blame other players for all of them? Just half of them?

I am not saying this is the case for you, but I think most fans see what they want to see. When you already have a bias, you look for things that reinforce your position. Most people seem to think Peyton is a great guy and Tom is one too. Unfortunately, that just isn't good enough to accept for fans caught up in the hype/rivalry.

[Solecismic]

In a division that pretty much sucked. Pardon me for being underwhelmed by the accomplishment.

Because of the schedule, New England actually had an above-average strength of schedule. Nothing like San Diego's, but a hell of a lot tougher than Indianapolis' schedule.

Right now, Indianapolis is sitting tied at 3rd to last in strength of schedule, mainly because they played Tennessee and Houston a lot. So, are they that good? Probably, because they met the challenge when they did play good teams.

But New England has played well this season, too. While Indy would be favored by a lot at home, you can't deny New England has a decent chance.

[Axxon]

Ok. I thought you were saying that if there is an established penalty in the game for a particular action then it is not immoral to commit that act, if I follow correctly. I'm just wondering if it is possible that there are immoral acts 'within the game' that became so prevalent that a penalty had to be created to deal with them. That they are not just "a part of the game" but rather something had to be done to deal with it instead of just waiting for them to be fined on Monday/Tuesday.

Oh no, I'm not saying that an act isn't immoral simply because there's a penalty for it. Not at all. Murder is still an immoral act even though there's a penalty for it. I'm simply saying there's no intrinsic moral issue with bumping a receiver for example or any other example of merely breaking a football established rule. Trying to injure someone doesn't fit this bill.

When you act dishonestly though, and assuming that you consider immoral, then it's immoral. I do consider dishonesty immoral so I have a problem with it in general.

I'd never consider someone immoral for talking on a cell phone but when you are in charge of the rules and you fine a player on a division rival for trivially breaking it but you willingly engage in the same behaviour with your own coach in a situation with playoff implications and then due to your position duck the penalty that's immoral.

To answer the rest of the post, I'd say yes. The head slap rule, the rules to protect qb's etc are rules that are in place less for competetive reasons but for safety and as a discouragement to committing certain acts which would give you an advantage but are immoral to do ie injure someone.

[Pumpy Tudors]

FWIW, I've never been a Saints fan, but I am hoping that the Texans pull this game out so they can get the first draft pick down there in New Orleans. As bad as the Texans and 49ers have been this year, I find it absolutely hilarious that they could both blow their chance at the #1 pick (well, the Niners have already blown it). To me, the Saints have fairly quietly gone 3-13 while the Texans and 49ers have basically been running gags all year. For teams that haven't done anything right all year, this would just completely cap it off.

GO TEXANS GO!

[Philliesfan980]

I disagree. I think you'll be back in the playoffs next year.

Could be with the way the NFL is today. But nonetheless, I don't like this team in many different ways. The defense has progressively gotten worse each year, and we will be without a #1 WR next year. Brian Westbrook is NOT a #1 NFL back, and it makes me sick that he'll be our go to guy for the next few years because of the contract he got. Man, I really wish they saved that money, and gave it (and then some) to Shawn Alexander next year.

[cthomer5000]

But New England has played well this season, too. While Indy would be favored by a lot at home, you can't deny New England has a decent chance.
They're going to have to get through Jacksonville and Denver first, because Pittsburgh is a lock to beat the Bengals next week.

[Pumpy Tudors]

The 49ers get booed on their first possession in overtime. Now the Texans are starting from their own 30. Tony Banks is in and will try to lead the Texans to victory! Of course, they'll probably get to the red zone and then Kris Brown will miss another field goal. I think Brown has missed a couple on purpose this year.

[WVUFAN]

I think you summed up my feelings on the subject pretty nicely. I think Tony Dungy and the Colts are a class act, besides Manning. If Manning were an officer in the Army, I picture him getting wounded by "accidental" friendly fire. It's kind of a unique rivalry in the sense that I don't think many Pats fans actively root against the Colts so much as they root against Manning (see the "cut that meat" taunt last season). Like if Carson Palmer QB'd them, I don't think you'd see half as much ire.
Yup. I have a lot of respect for Dungy and for Marvin Harrison, whom I believe is the 2nd best WR in the league (I think Hines Ward is the best pure WR in the bunch due to his toughness and willingness to take one for the team), but Manning really irks me. Oddly enough, I don't feel the same about Eli. Eli seems to have a much more team-oriented attitude than Manning.

[cthomer5000]

It's getting late early in Dallas....

[st.cronin]

Could be with the way the NFL is today. But nonetheless, I don't like this team in many different ways. The defense has progressively gotten worse each year, and we will be without a #1 WR next year. Brian Westbrook is NOT a #1 NFL back, and it makes me sick that he'll be our go to guy for the next few years because of the contract he got. Man, I really wish they saved that money, and gave it (and then some) to Shawn Alexander next year.

If you mean that running back in Seattle, he has got to be the most overrated guy in the NFL. That offensive line deserves most of the credit he gets.

[Pumpy Tudors]

In overtime, the "go-to guys" for Tony Banks are Marcellus Rivers and Vernand Morency. This is comedy at its finest.

[Axxon]

Dola

Who gives a shit about your penalties/moral crap. I came to this thread expecting talk about Week 17 football. Please start a new thread.

Sorry, but I see no reason to honor this request. I don't even know you nor do I give one half a worthless crap about what you expect.

No offense but if you expect FOFC to remain specifically on topic you need to shut the fuck up and read more. Most threads don't remain even marginally on topic like this one has and hear those crickets chirping sparky??

No one else has their panties in a bunch over a handfull of posts talking about week 16 of the NFL season.

Don't blame us because your miserable excuse of a team is tanking the season and this week in particular. If they weren't maybe there'd be less off week discussion hmm.

[st.cronin]

In overtime, the "go-to guys" for Tony Banks are Marcellus Rivers and Vernand Morency. This is comedy at its finest.

Is there anybody actually in the stadium? Other than the players and the coaching staff?

[Philliesfan980]

Somewhere the GM/Owner of Houston is going nuts. Hell, If I were him, I'd throw some extra cash at Capers to purposely blow this game.

[WVUFAN]

Have you felt that way for this entire career, or just since the rivalry started to heat up? He has thrown 130 INTs in his career. Do you think he has really tried to blame other players for all of them? Just half of them? Good question. My dislike of Manning began in his first playoff loss to New England in 2003, so you may have a good point there. That's the first time I really began to notice his attitude.


I am not saying this is the case for you, but I think most fans see what they want to see. When you already have a bias, you look for things that reinforce your position. Most people seem to think Peyton is a great guy and Tom is one too. Unfortunately, that just isn't good enough to accept for fans caught up in the hype/rivalry.No, you have a good point, and you may be completely correct, I hadn't considered that before. Probably not gonna change my opinion of him, but you're probably right.

[Philliesfan980]

Sorry, but I see no reason to honor this request. I don't even know you nor do I give one half a worthless crap about what you expect.

No offense but if you expect FOFC to remain specifically on topic you need to shut the fuck up and read more. Most threads don't remain even marginally on topic like this one has and hear those crickets chirping sparky??

No one else has their panties in a bunch over a handfull of posts talking about week 16 of the NFL season.

Don't blame us because your miserable excuse of a team is tanking the season and this week in particular. If they weren't maybe there'd be less off week discussion hmm.


You sir, are a piece of shit.

[Tekneek]

Because of the schedule, New England actually had an above-average strength of schedule. Nothing like San Diego's, but a hell of a lot tougher than Indianapolis' schedule.

On a glance, Indy has 5 wins against playoff teams and New England has 2. Does that not mean anything?

But New England has played well this season, too. While Indy would be favored by a lot at home, you can't deny New England has a decent chance.

No doubt they have a decent chance. Some say playing out the rest of the playoffs are a technicality, though.

[JeeberD]

Come on, Koy, do it for your home state!

[JeeberD]

Dola-

fuck

[Tekneek]

You sir, are a piece of shit.

I didn't read this thread to see profanity. Please start a new one for that kind of talk.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Texans WR Corey Bradford and 49ers SS Keith Lewis had a hugfest at midfield, only moments after Lewis broke up a third-down pass attempt. Instead of Bradford being upset that he didn't catch the ball or Lewis being happy to force a punt, the players take the time to have a laugh with each other in overtime. I'm telling you, this is the funniest game in the NFL all year!

[Axxon]

Somewhere the GM/Owner of Houston is going nuts. Hell, If I were him, I'd throw some extra cash at Capers to purposely blow this game.

Ah, now I get why discussing morals would bother you so much.

Didn't know you posted here Pete. Loved you with the Reds.

[TazFTW]

WTF!

[Philliesfan980]

If you mean that running back in Seattle, he has got to be the most overrated guy in the NFL. That offensive line deserves most of the credit he gets.

Fair enough, but that case can be made for a lot of guys around the league. Just how good is Larry Johnson, he does run behind one of the best lines in recent memory.

It should be interesting to see what Bush does next year running behind someone's terrible line.

[Eaglesfan27]

Sheesh, the Eagles' quarterbacks can't hold onto the ball.

Just disgusting.

[Rizon]

I'm really proud of my Dolphins. I was hoping for a 5 win season and thought 6 wins would be a miracle. 9-7 is a gift from Santa, and I would surely blow him for it.

[st.cronin]

Fair enough, but that case can be made for a lot of guys around the league. Just how good is Larry Johnson, he does run behind one of the best lines in recent memory.

It should be interesting to see what Bush does next year running behind someone's terrible line.

I think Larry Johnson is better than Alexander. I think Tiki Barber is better than Alexander. I think Bush will do very well - better than McGahee in Buffalo.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Is there anybody actually in the stadium? Other than the players and the coaching staff?
The 49ers cheerleaders are having a Sapphic orgy in the south end zone. Not outside the end zone. IN the end zone. All sixteen fans in attendance are now seated in the south end zone seats. The ball is currently on the north end of the field.

[Axxon]

You sir, are a piece of shit.

But I've never claimed to be anything else nor did I try and enforce my will arbitrarily against someone I didn't know. Nor do I support paying coaches to tanking games.

Yes sir, I'm a piece of shit. I'll grant you that, but I'm not Philliesfan980 so considering the alternatives, I'll thank my lucky stars to be what I am.

[Philliesfan980]

Ah, now I get why discussing morals would bother you so much.

Didn't know you posted here Pete. Loved you with the Reds.

The NFL is a business. Would I want my team to throw the game to get possibly the best draft pick in recent memory? YES! Now the players of course won't feel this way, because nothing is certain in terms of job security in the NFL, but if I'm the GM or Owner, yeah, I'd want to lose this game. The drop off between 1 and 2 is huge this year. Do I really want D Bricksaw Fergison or whatever his name is (I believe the T out of Virginia).

[Pumpy Tudors]

Overtime is half over in San Francisco. The 49ers have had two possessions. The Texans have had one. Neither team has crossed midfield with the ball yet. The Niners are about to punt toward the orgy.

[WVUFAN]

The NFL is a business.
This isn't a business discussion. Please start a new thread.

[RendeR]

Say goodnight the Parties over, Dallas' playoff hopes are dead and gone......



Yeehaaa.....

How bout them redskins *lol*

[Solecismic]

On a glance, Indy has 5 wins against playoff teams and New England has 2. Does that not mean anything?

Of course. But you're changing the argument. You said New England's crappy divisional schedule meant their record is invalid, when they in fact played in a division with the same record from the other three teams (if Houston loses).


No doubt they have a decent chance. Some say playing out the rest of the playoffs are a technicality, though.

I didn't. Indy should be favored for many reasons.