So Kobe has 72 points....

[MrBug708]

...incredible

[MrBug708]

27-43 no less

[lighthousekeeper]

yeah i'm watching this on espn gamecast. here's the shots taken by the current LAL lineup:

vujacic: 1/3
odom: 1/7
brown: 1/5
walton: 0/1
bryant: 28/45


ball hog.

[Deattribution]

And like noone on his team has more then 5 shots... It's great when it works, not so great when it doesn't...

Nice job either way.

[st.cronin]

Watching him play, I don't think he's gotten laid all year.

[Deattribution]

Watching him play, I don't think he's gotten laid all year.

Have they played Denver yet? :)

[stevew]

The Raptors are pretty awesome.

[MrBug708]

yeah i'm watching this on espn gamecast. here's the shots taken by the current LAL lineup:

vujacic: 1/3
odom: 1/7
brown: 1/5
walton: 0/1
bryant: 28/45


ball hog.

Considering the lineup with him, do ya blame him?

[hoopsguy]

It is interesting that people would complain about shot distribution when his team is winning by 13 and he has hit 62% from the floor. I understand some people hate Kobe, but give the man his due on a night like this.

[duckman]

81 points now.

[stevew]

At least he managed 2 assists today.

[ThunderingHERD]

2nd highest scoring game of all time.

[lighthousekeeper]

so when was the last time someone scored over 80?

[Deattribution]

At least he managed 2 assists today.

TWO career highs in one game!

[MrBug708]

Considering his team was down by 14 at halftime, this makes it much more incredible

[stevew]

so when was the last time someone scored over 80?

The last time Michelle Wie golfed.

[Deattribution]

Considering his team was down by 14 at halftime, this makes it much more incredible

When he does it against the Spurs, Pistons, or maybe even the Heat I'll be amazed.

It's an awesome individual performance and I'll definitely pat him on the back when he's watching the playoffs in the stands with me.

[MrBug708]

When he does it against the Spurs, Pistons, or maybe even the Heat I'll be amazed.

It's an awesome individual performance and I'll definitely pat him on the back when he's watching the playoffs in the stands with me.

So if he did it against Detroit, it's no longer an individual achievement? :confused:

[Deattribution]

So if he did it against Detroit, it's no longer an individual achievement? :confused:

It still is, it's just not so amazing when you consider given a similiar amount of attempts Charles Barkley could put up 60 on the Raptors and he hasn't played in like a decade.

[stevew]

Kobe Bryant is the greatest player in the history of the NBA, and along with that a model citizen, a loving father, and a great husband. I only wish that I had a son so that I could teach him how to be as good as Kobe in all facets of life and game.

[kingfc22]

Wow. Huge round of applause for Kobe.

[lighthousekeeper]

so when was the last time someone scored over 80?

it's scary that when you're researching the answer to this on wiki, you not only come across this quote on the kobe page: "Kobe Bryant scored a career high 81 points on January 22,2006 in a game which the Lakers defeated the Raptors 122-104 in Los Angeles", but you come across this quote on the wilt page: "Chamberlain's 78-point triple overtime game against the Lakers also remained as the second-highest single game point total until 2006 when the Lakers' Kobe Bryant scored 81."

This all within 5 minutes of the game ending.

[ISiddiqui]

Holy crap!

That's amazing... I believe only Wilt has had a better game (the 100 pointer).

[MrBug708]

As for shot selection by his teammates

Odom - 12%
Brown - 20%
Sasha - 20%
George - 0%
Mihm - 60%
Smush - 45%

I'd say that the Lakers are easily the worst team in the NBA if you take off their top two players. Hell, I'd say top player at this juncture.

[Karlifornia]

81 points. I'm not a Kobe fan, but I gotta give it up to him. Only Wilt's 100 is better for one game. Crazy.

[kingfc22]

When he does it against the Spurs, Pistons, or maybe even the Heat I'll be amazed.Give me a break. http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif NOBODY has ever scored more than 80 other than Wilt and he was center. He shot 28/46 (61%) from the floor and over 50% from 3 pt. range (7/13) and pulled his team back from 15 down.

[Deattribution]

Give me a break. http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif NOBODY has ever scored more than 80 other than Wilt and he was center. He shot 28/46 (61%) from the floor and over 50% from 3 pt. range (7/13) and pulled his team back from 15 down.


Sure, I'll give you a break - I said it was a awesome individual achievement, one he could have already accomplished (sat out a 4th quarter with what? 60 something?)

And it's also something others could have accomplished but didn't - cause it wasn't necessary - by the time they scored 40 or 50 they also let their team take a few shots (more then 1 apiece) and the game is a blowout.

[ThunderingHERD]

It still is, it's just not so amazing when you consider given a similiar amount of attempts Charles Barkley could put up 60 on the Raptors and he hasn't played in like a decade.

What a retarded statement. Toronto may be one of the worst teams in the league, but the <i>average</i> team gave up more points than they do back then.

[hoopsguy]

Lakers will move to 23-19 with a win tonight.

Coming into the game Kobe was averaging 34.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg, and 4.3 apg. He plays better defense than just about any of the young stars in the league. He hits his foul shots. He makes big plays at the end of games.

Dude just scored 81 points in a 20 point win, where he rallied his team from down double-digits at halftime, and people can't acknowledge that this was a great game by a great player?

[Deattribution]

dola

And I guess it would be a 15 point deficit when one guy has taken %95 of your shots.. he has to sit sometime.

[st.cronin]

As for shot selection by his teammates

Odom - 12%
Brown - 20%
Sasha - 20%
George - 0%
Mihm - 60%
Smush - 45%

I'd say that the Lakers are easily the worst team in the NBA if you take off their top two players. Hell, I'd say top player at this juncture.

Who, exactly, *is* the Lakers 2nd best player? Lamar Odom? Chris Mihm? Phil Jackson?

[Groundhog]

I dislike Kobe as much as the next guy, but yes, incredible performance. I can give him his dues after a game like that.

[Karlifornia]

Sorry Deattribution, but when someone does something that has only happened one other time EVER, then you can't say "many others could have done it"

[clintl]

Who, exactly, *is* the Lakers 2nd best player? Lamar Odom? Chris Mihm? Phil Jackson?

Jack Nicholson

[st.cronin]

I hate the Fakers almost as much as I hate the Yankees, and I loathe Kobe. But I think he's easily the MVP of the League, and one of the 10 best players I've ever seen.

[hoopsguy]

And it's also something others could have accomplished but didn't - cause it wasn't necessary - by the time they scored 40 or 50 they also let their team take a few shots (more then 1 apiece) and the game is a blowout.
And Kobe left a game earlier this year where he had 62 (against Dallas, who rates as a better opponent) after 3 quarters. Where he was outscoring the other team just with his points. I'm not all things KB, but he has done the "good guy" thing in blowouts before. Heck, Bill Simmons wrote a one-page article in ESPNMag killing him for not going after the 80+ game during that game.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm not a Kobe fan either, but I admit this was a very impressive game. Of course, I'd rather have Lebron, Dwyane, and at least a few other young superstars who actually make their teammates better rather than just score.

[ThunderingHERD]

Sure, I'll give you a break - I said it was a awesome individual achievement, one he could have already accomplished (sat out a 4th quarter with what? 60 something?)

And it's also something others could have accomplished but didn't - cause it wasn't necessary - by the time they scored 40 or 50 they also let their team take a few shots (more then 1 apiece) and the game is a blowout.

What exactly is your point? That if he wasn't such a ball hog it wouldn't have been close? Michael Jordan scored his career high in an OT game. Wilt Chamberlain's previous record for 2nd highest was scored in triple OT. What kind of argument is "other people could have, but didn't." Couldn't you use that to belittle just about every sporting record ever?

[Deattribution]

Good grief, some of you people would think I said Kobe sucks and his game tonight sucked.

Just because I'm not giving him a verbal blowjob (I did say (for the third time) AWESOME INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE), but in this day and age it's not as special to me.

[MrBug708]

And Kobe left a game earlier this year where he had 62 (against Dallas, who rates as a better opponent) after 3 quarters. Where he was outscoring the other team just with his points. I'm not all things KB, but he has done the "good guy" thing in blowouts before. Heck, Bill Simmons wrote a one-page article in ESPNMag killing him for not going after the 80+ game during that game.

Phil Jackson said that he asked Kobe if he wanted to come out in that game and Kobe said that the game was well out of hand but when he sat down he had second thoughts about coming out, but he figured it was time to sit for the game.

IYou would think that teams would have figured out how to stop Kobe completely since he never passes....

[kingfc22]

Chamberlain's statline from his 100 pt. game was 36-of-63 (57%) on field goals and 28-of-32 on free throws. And the final score was 169-147. Those type of games don't exist anymore. Just look at the SEA/PHX game tonight where it took 2 OT's to break 300 (1st time since 1995 that happened in the NBA)

[hoopsguy]

Eagles, just curious - do you really think that if Kobe and LeBron (or Wade, or take your pick) swapped places with Kobe that they would have the Lakers with more than 23 wins this year?

I can see where this criticism arose last year. I understand that Kobe has always looked out for Kobe, to the detriment of the Lakers dynasty team. But I'm really struggling to see how someone can think that Kobe is holding back the 2005-2006 Lakers through selfish play. Right now they are the #6 seed in the West. Do you think the Lakers have better talent than this?

[Deattribution]

What exactly is your point? That if he wasn't such a ball hog it wouldn't have been close? Michael Jordan scored his career high in an OT game. Wilt Chamberlain's previous record for 2nd highest was scored in triple OT. What kind of argument is "other people could have, but didn't." Couldn't you use that to belittle just about every sporting record ever?

My remark about Barkley was in jest, but my point was that in the regular season, against one of the worse teams in the league and involving your team zero - I'm not amazed.

I never said he wasn't a great player, he is, I just never cared for his style of play. I never said it wasn't a great performance, it was. and I never said anyone could do it.

[st.cronin]

Eagles, just curious - do you really think that if Kobe and LeBron (or Wade, or take your pick) swapped places with Kobe that they would have the Lakers with more than 23 wins this year?

I can see where this criticism arose last year. I understand that Kobe has always looked out for Kobe, to the detriment of the Lakers dynasty team. But I'm really struggling to see how someone can think that Kobe is holding back the 2005-2006 Lakers through selfish play. Right now they are the #6 seed in the West. Do you think the Lakers have better talent than this?

I can't speak for anybody else but I think Kobe's been unbelievable this year. His season has been a performance for the ages.

[SackAttack]

And Kobe left a game earlier this year where he had 62 (against Dallas, who rates as a better opponent) after 3 quarters. Where he was outscoring the other team just with his points. I'm not all things KB, but he has done the "good guy" thing in blowouts before. Heck, Bill Simmons wrote a one-page article in ESPNMag killing him for not going after the 80+ game during that game.

And I was just griping about this to Bug and somebody else. Look, he sat out against Dallas rather than go for 80+ because he didn't want to show the Mavericks up. Dallas, incidentally, is 31-10.

Toronto? 14-26, and Kobe apparently thought the Lakers were in severe enough danger of losing that he played all the way (despite the fact that the Lakers were up 6 after 3 quarters. Yes, they were losing at halftime, but c'mon).

So what's the deal here? Is he insulting Dallas by insinuating that they're such an easy opponent that his team can beat them without him playing for 25% of the game, or is he insulting Toronto by not showing them the same courtesy he showed Dallas?

Either way, at best he shows a disingenuous character by throwing up 80 tonight. Either you're a classy guy who wants to "do the right thing," or you're showing a public face that doesn't at all match what your character really is.

I know which one I think is the case here.

[MrBug708]

Eagles, just curious - do you really think that if Kobe and LeBron (or Wade, or take your pick) swapped places with Kobe that they would have the Lakers with more than 23 wins this year?

I can see where this criticism arose last year. I understand that Kobe has always looked out for Kobe, to the detriment of the Lakers dynasty team. But I'm really struggling to see how someone can think that Kobe is holding back the 2005-2006 Lakers through selfish play. Right now they are the #6 seed in the West. Do you think the Lakers have better talent than this?

Wade's team is much more talented this year but hasn't had the greatest season. They still own the Lakers but that team is about to become the next Knicks with cap hell. I dont think LeBron would be doing better because the Lakers are winning because Kobe scores.

The Lakers havent won a game where Odom takes more then 14 shots

[Deattribution]

Eagles, just curious - do you really think that if Kobe and LeBron (or Wade, or take your pick) swapped places with Kobe that they would have the Lakers with more than 23 wins this year?


Wade practically already did it with Odom, and Butler as his main players... It was in the East, so that has some affect on the outcome but still he made them better players... Kobe makes noone better but Kobe.

[ThunderingHERD]

My remark about Barkley was in jest, but my point was that in the regular season, against one of the worse teams in the league and involving your team zero - I'm not amazed.


He shot 61% from the field. Do you think his teammates would have done better? Is this about winning or conforming to your silly notions of how basketball should be played? Do you find Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game unimpressive for the same reasons?

[st.cronin]

Some of you people are NUTS.

[hoopsguy]

OK, so he had 26 at half, then 27 in the 3rd and 28 in the 4th.

With his big 3rd quarter he was at 53 with his team up 6. Of course he isn't sitting the quarter at this point. What point was enough? Not sure, as I didn't see the game. But at some point in the 4th quarter it became all about putting up a huge number.

Would you hold this against Wade or LeBron if one of them was putting up this kind of number? I don't use Iverson as the example because I know that some people would ...

[Deattribution]

He shot 61% from the field. Do you think his teammates would have done better? Is this about winning or conforming to your silly notions of how basketball should be played? Do you find Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game unimpressive for the same reasons?

I know we'll never find out, will we? We never will the entire season either...

[MrBug708]

Wade practically already did it with Odom, and Butler as his main players... It was in the East, so that has some affect on the outcome but still he made them better players... Kobe makes noone better but Kobe.

And what seed did they get that year?

[cmp]

Well, I am quite amazed at that game tonight. If you're not amazed at what Kobe did than I don't know what else you would like to see. What he did was incredible.

[Deattribution]

And what seed did they get that year?

A higher seed then Kobe and Lakers have assured right now.

[Groundhog]

And I was just griping about this to Bug and somebody else. Look, he sat out against Dallas rather than go for 80+ because he didn't want to show the Mavericks up. Dallas, incidentally, is 31-10.

Toronto? 14-26, and Kobe apparently thought the Lakers were in severe enough danger of losing that he played all the way (despite the fact that the Lakers were up 6 after 3 quarters. Yes, they were losing at halftime, but c'mon).

So what's the deal here? Is he insulting Dallas by insinuating that they're such an easy opponent that his team can beat them without him playing for 25% of the game, or is he insulting Toronto by not showing them the same courtesy he showed Dallas?

Either way, at best he shows a disingenuous character by throwing up 80 tonight. Either you're a classy guy who wants to "do the right thing," or you're showing a public face that doesn't at all match what your character really is.

I know which one I think is the case here.

I think he simply decided to "go for it". Hell, what would any of us do? If I had scored 60+ points in 3 quarters I'd want to shoot for a record too, and that doesn't make it any less worthy of being called an achievement - It's not like he missed a shot off his own basket to pick up a rebound for a triple double.

I didn't see the game, so I don't know if Toronto actually did much to try stop him (flashback to that final game of the season where the Clippers basically allowed David Robinson to score at will in a blowout that led to him beating out Shaq for the leading scorer), but this is an awesome achievement for any professional basketballer and I see nothing wrong with him deciding to play the 4th Q this time around.

[MrBug708]

I dont think pitchers should be allowed to complete a no hitter if their team is up by more then 3 runs.

[st.cronin]

I dont think pitchers should be allowed to complete a no hitter if their team is up by more then 3 runs.

Especially not if he's Roger Clemens or somebody and we all hate him and think he's selfish.

[MrBug708]

A higher seed then Kobe and Lakers have assured right now.

4th seed but the 5th seed was the Hornets....

[Oilers9911]

Kobe is a disingenuos, lying, cheating, possibly criminal sack of crap. But the man can play ball. Awesome performance.

[kingfc22]

I can't believe I'm actually in a sports thread where I'm on the same side as MrBug. It feels so wrong. ;)

[Eaglesfan27]

Eagles, just curious - do you really think that if Kobe and LeBron (or Wade, or take your pick) swapped places with Kobe that they would have the Lakers with more than 23 wins this year?

I can see where this criticism arose last year. I understand that Kobe has always looked out for Kobe, to the detriment of the Lakers dynasty team. But I'm really struggling to see how someone can think that Kobe is holding back the 2005-2006 Lakers through selfish play. Right now they are the #6 seed in the West. Do you think the Lakers have better talent than this?
Yes, I think Lebron could set up Lamar and Kwame (as well as all the other Lakers) much better than Kobe does. Yes, Kwame has been a disappointment in Washington. Yes, he is a disappointment in LA too, but I bet Lebron could get him some sweet looks and make him useful. I think Lamar was thrive with Lebron.

[hoopsguy]

Deattribution, let me correct my question: do you think they would be better than 23-19 at this point (instead of would they have 23 wins all year, which was not what I intended to ask).

Wade did win with Odom and Butler as teammates ... lets pull up the rosters from that Heat team and this Lakers team:

2005-2006 Lakers
PG Parker, Vujacic
SG Bryant, McKie, D. Green, Wafer
SF Odom, George, Walton, Profit
PF K. Brown, Cook, Medvadenko
C Mihm, Bynum

2003-2004 Heat
PG: Wade, Alston, Coles
SG: E. Jones
SF: C. Butler, Beasley, R. Butler, J. Wallace
PF: Odom, Haslem, S. Walker, M. Allen
C: B. Grant, Zhizhi, L. Woods

I'm guessing I don't have all the positions exactly right on the Heat roster so please feel free to reference the following link if you want to validate this team:
hxxp://airtom24.free.fr/ChicagoBulls/Saison0304/Roster/Miami.php (http://airtom24.free.fr/ChicagoBulls/Saison0304/Roster/Miami.php)

But I'm pretty confident I would rather have that Heat team if you take Kobe and Wade off their respective teams. Different people would have different opinions on how much better one team is than the other, but that Miami team finished 42-40.

[MrBug708]

I can't believe I'm actually in a sports thread where I'm on the same side as MrBug. It feels so wrong. ;)

It's LA sports, no worries...:)

[ThunderingHERD]

Wade practically already did it with Odom, and Butler as his main players... It was in the East, so that has some affect on the outcome but still he made them better players... Kobe makes noone better but Kobe.

With Wade in Miami, Caron Butler averaged 9.2 PTS 4.8 and shot only 38% from the field. With Kobe in LA, Butler averaged 15.5 PTS 5.8 REB and shot 45%. Yeh, Wade definately made him better. Lamar Odom's numbers were virtually identical, except that he takes less shots, but better ones. His average is down 2 points and his FG% is up 3-4%.

How does that play into your theory? If they were playing on a team centered around one selfish player, shouldn't their FG% fall as they had to create their own shots? The fact is that even though his assist numbers are down sharply this year, Kobe is still among the top SG in the league in assists. Your argument is completely uninformed.

[hoopsguy]

Eagles, your argument for Lebron would work better for me if the Cavs had made the playoffs in his first two years. Or if they had a better record than 21-17 this year. Or if his defense was on par with Kobe's - or at least his defensive intensity gave the impression that it would get to Kobe's level.

But Lebron does hit about 4% higher on his field goal attempts and average about two more assists per game. And his next game-winner will be his first.

[Deattribution]

Deattribution, let me correct my question: do you think they would be better than 23-19 at this point (instead of would they have 23 wins all year, which was not what I intended to ask).

Wade did win with Odom and Butler as teammates ... lets pull up the rosters from that Heat team and this Lakers team:

2005-2006 Lakers
PG Parker, Vujacic
SG Bryant, McKie, D. Green, Wafer
SF Odom, George, Walton, Profit
PF K. Brown, Cook, Medvadenko
C Mihm, Bynum

2003-2004 Heat
PG: Wade, Alston, Coles
SG: E. Jones
SF: C. Butler, Beasley, R. Butler, J. Wallace
PF: Odom, Haslem, S. Walker, M. Allen
C: B. Grant, Zhizhi, L. Woods

I'm guessing I don't have all the positions exactly right on the Heat roster so please feel free to reference the following link if you want to validate this team:
hxxp://airtom24.free.fr/ChicagoBulls/Saison0304/Roster/Miami.php (http://airtom24.free.fr/ChicagoBulls/Saison0304/Roster/Miami.php)

But I'm pretty confident I would rather have that Heat team if you take Kobe and Wade off their respective teams. Different people would have different opinions on how much better one team is than the other, but that Miami team finished 42-40.


And I'd probably agree, the Heat team might have been better... but Kobe is also better then Wade was at that point... He's still probably a better player, but Wade is a better team player.

Since you asked, I just answered - but to clarify some, obviously Kobe is responsible in almost full for their record as it stands.. But I don't think Odom (Butler gone?) and some of the other players they have are being properly utilized by their key player.

Like I said, it's great when he scores 50 and they win, and it's the teams biggest glaring flaw and eventual downfall when he scores 50 and they lose.

[Eaglesfan27]

Eagles, your argument for Lebron would work better for me if the Cavs had made the playoffs in his first two years. Or if they had a better record than 21-17 this year. Or if his defense was on par with Kobe's - or at least his defensive intensity gave the impression that it would get to Kobe's level.

But Lebron does hit about 4% higher on his field goal attempts and average about two more assists per game. And his next game-winner will be his first.
I would argue that Lebron's teammates haven't been as good as Kobe's. LeBron's numbers are more impressive overall, and he has made his teammates look better than in years before Lebron arrived. I agree that Kobe is better defensively, but Lebron sets up his teammates much better than Kobe does. He makes his teammates better offensively.

[ThunderingHERD]

Like I said, it's great when he scores 50 and they win, and it's the teams biggest glaring flaw and eventual downfall when he scores 50 and they lose.

No, it isn't. All that's changing is your perception of it. Your uninformed perceptions seem to be all that your opinions are based on.
"Everybody knows Kobe's a ball hog!" "Wade's a real team player!" "With Randy Moss out of the picture, it's going to be smooth sailing for Minnesota."

[SackAttack]

I think he simply decided to "go for it". Hell, what would any of us do?

I don't have a problem with him going for it.

I have a problem with him talking out of both sides of his mouth.

I'm incredibly disappointed that, at first glance, the media didn't have the balls to confront him with his statement after the Dallas game and ask him what changed.

[st.cronin]

No, it isn't. All that's changing is your perception of it. Your uninformed perceptions seem to be all that your opinions are based on.
"Everybody knows Kobe's a ball hog!" "Wade's a real team player!" "With Randy Moss out of the picture, it's going to be smooth sailing for Minnesota."

lol

[hoopsguy]

You really think the Cleveland roster isn't as good as the LA roster?

Cleveland: Snow and D. Jones at PG, Larry Hughes at SG (yes, he has missed 10 games), Gooden at PF and Big Z at center, with Donyell Marshall and Eric Snow pulling down minutes - I honestly don't think that LA has as much talent.

Given that the Lakers and Cavs essentially have the same record, I guess the next area I look is at home games: 19/19 home vs road for Cleveland and 20/22 home/road for the Lakers. Again a push.

Short of a strenght of schedule rating that indicates Cleveland has played a killer schedule while LA has gotten cupcakes, I'm having a hard time justifying James generating more value on the basketball court than Bryant. But I do understand that measuring something like this is subjective.

[Deattribution]

No, it isn't. All that's changing is your perception of it. Your uninformed perceptions seem to be all that your opinions are based on.
"Everybody knows Kobe's a ball hog!" "Wade's a real team player!" "With Randy Moss out of the picture, it's going to be smooth sailing for Minnesota."


Yeah my perception has really changed when almost all my post have identical points with more elaboration.

You say that Butler was playing better and Odom was playing the same, how many games did the Lakers win? There's obvious plenty of other things that fit into that other then just Kobe, but if he's doing better or the same with Wade's former players why were the Lakers picking 10th in the draft?

[MikeVic]

Hats off to Kobe. I hate him, but respect him.

[ThunderingHERD]

Yeah my perception has really changed when almost all my post have identical points with more elaboration.

That wasn't my point at all.

You say that Butler was playing better and Odom was playing the same, how many games did the Lakers win? There's obvious plenty of other things that fit into that other then just Kobe, but if he's doing better or the same with Wade's former players why were the Lakers picking 10th in the draft?

Because there are more than 3 players on a basketball team? And the east was god awful that year. Hell, even last year with the east much improved the Lakers record was significantly better against eastern teams.

[cmp]

For people that don't like that Kobe kept playing in the 4th and kept scoring I really don't see what the big is. The Lakers only started the 4th up by 6 points. Of course Kobe is going to be in the game and trying to build the lead. They ended up winning by 18, its not like it was some 30 points blowout with Kobe still in the game.

[Deattribution]

Because there are more than 3 players on a basketball team?

A Laker fan that admits there is more then just Kobe on the team?

Won't that get you kicked out of the KB fan club? :)

[MrBug708]

Yeah my perception has really changed when almost all my post have identical points with more elaboration.

You say that Butler was playing better and Odom was playing the same, how many games did the Lakers win? There's obvious plenty of other things that fit into that other then just Kobe, but if he's doing better or the same with Wade's former players why were the Lakers picking 10th in the draft?

Seeing as how the original coach had given up, I'd say that there really wasnt much fight in the Lakers under Hamblen

[ThunderingHERD]

A Laker fan that admits there is more then just Kobe on the team?

Won't that get you kicked out of the KB fan club? :)

I'm not a Lakers fan nor do I consider myself a Kobe fan. But thanks for failing to respond to the points once again.

[Deattribution]

I'm not a Lakers fan nor do I consider myself a Kobe fan. But thanks for failing to respond to the points once again.

What point would you like me to respond to? the fact that I already said the East was different and the fact that I already said there were plenty other circumstances?

Care to repeat me a few more times and say I'm not covering your point?

Another fact is Wade had more assist last year then KB has ever had in any season, ever. So obviously he's not got an issue with being a team player. He didn't play a full season, he also had a coach that quit on him (sound familiar?) and he had a less then spectacular team that never did anything in years and still took them to the playoffs.

I'm not saying Kobe should have taken them to the finals last year, or even the playoffs, but they were wretched.. and they look better this year, but there are too many games where he scores all those points with his team standing around watching for naut. He's not a team player.

[cmp]

I'm the furthest thing from a Lakers fan but right now Kobe is the best player in the League. What he has been doing over the last few months has just been amazing. People will discredit him because he takes so many shots but he is still shooting 45% which is not too bad. Everyone knows he will be the one taking all the shots yet they still cannot stop him. He is on another level from anyone else right now.

[Deattribution]

And nobody has said he isn't the best player in the league, individually he plays better then anyone, but like ThunderingHERD said - there's more then 3 (1 in this case) players on a team (thanks for certifying my point btw).

[cmp]

Another fact is Wade had more assist last year then KB has ever had in any season, ever. So obviously he's not got an issue with being a team player. He didn't play a full season, he also had a coach that quit on him (sound familiar?) and he had a less then spectacular team that never did anything in years and still took them to the playoffs.


Wade was not the only reason that team got into the playoffs. If it wasn't for Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom there's not a chance that team would have gotten in the playoffs. Put Kobe in Wade's place and that team wins 50 games.

[dervack]

Another fact is Wade had more assist last year then KB has ever had in any season, ever. So obviously he's not got an issue with being a team player.
Not really too sure since I really stopped following basketball a few years ago, but shouldn't a PG always have more assists than a SG? I mean the SG does stand for Shooting Guard, right?

[Eaglesfan27]

You really think the Cleveland roster isn't as good as the LA roster?

Cleveland: Snow and D. Jones at PG, Larry Hughes at SG (yes, he has missed 10 games), Gooden at PF and Big Z at center, with Donyell Marshall and Eric Snow pulling down minutes - I honestly don't think that LA has as much talent.

Given that the Lakers and Cavs essentially have the same record, I guess the next area I look is at home games: 19/19 home vs road for Cleveland and 20/22 home/road for the Lakers. Again a push.

Short of a strenght of schedule rating that indicates Cleveland has played a killer schedule while LA has gotten cupcakes, I'm having a hard time justifying James generating more value on the basketball court than Bryant. But I do understand that measuring something like this is subjective.
Yeah, I really do. Snow is not nearly as good as he was with Philly (at least in the Cleveland games I've watched.) Damon Jones is decent, but I think his numbers have been inflated by Dwyane and now Lebron. Donyell Marshall is not as good as Lamar. Gooden is better than Kwame, but I think LeBron could make Kwame look as good as Gooden. I don't think Gooden would look as good with Kobe as his running mate. As far as the Big Z, he is good when his health is at 100%, but that seems to be rare.

[ThunderingHERD]

And nobody has said he isn't the best player in the league, individually he plays better then anyone, but like ThunderingHERD said - there's more then 3 (1 in this case) players on a team (thanks for certifying my point btw).

Really? YOur point was that there are more than three players on a team? Well, you should have stated it more clearly to begin with and saved everyone some time.

Were you not impressed with Michael Jordan either? Jordan averaged more shots per game in his prime than Kobe has. I guess neither of them understand the game of basketball like you do.

I'm done with this argument unless you plan to provide some sort of support for your inane statements.

[Deattribution]

Not really too sure since I really stopped following basketball a few years ago, but shouldn't a PG always have more assists than a SG? I mean the SG does stand for Shooting Guard, right?

Yeah but Wade isn't playing PG.

[DeToxRox]

C'mon, Kobe is taking all sorts of shots, but the team is over .500 and in the playoff hunt. Everyone predicted this team would be a lottery team before the season started, and now they're a potential playoff team.

It's all because of Kobe, so I'd cut the guy a little slack.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm not trying to say that Kobe isn't having a great season. I'm just saying I'd rather build a team around Lebron.

[Deattribution]

Really? YOur point was that there are more than three players on a team? Well, you should have stated it more clearly to begin with and saved everyone some time.

Were you not impressed with Michael Jordan either? Jordan averaged more shots per game in his prime than Kobe has. I guess neither of them understand the game of basketball like you do.

I'm done with this argument unless you plan to provide some sort of support for your inane statements.

Haha, and what is your point?

That Kobe is MJ? that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread? what?

I didn't think it'd lite such a fire under you to say he isn't a team player and individual accomplishments in a team game (esp like the NBA) while stellar and a nice feat aren't what makes a player great.

Since the example was used, I know everytime Roger Clemens pitches a perfect game that the team is gonna win. Can you honestly say with all certainy that everytime Kobe scores 80 his team is gonna get the W?

[dervack]

Haha, and what is your point?

That Kobe is MJ? that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread? what?

I didn't think it'd lite such a fire under you to say he isn't a team player and individual accomplishments in a team game (esp like the NBA) while stellar and a nice feat aren't what makes a player great.

Since the example was used, I know everytime Roger Clemens pitches a perfect game that the team is gonna win. Can you honestly say with all certainy that everytime Kobe scores 80 his team is gonna get the W?
Sorry, but that's a stupid arguement. You going to tell me that every time Wade has 10 assists, his team will win?

[DeToxRox]

Kobe gets the league max to score, not to pass. Yeah he's supposed to be a team guy but if you shell out that kind of dough, you better be ready to bring in guys to play around him, and not guys for him to play with, because it's not gonna' happen. And I think what he's doing now is spectacular, but we'll see what the future holds.

[Deattribution]

Sorry, but that's a stupid arguement. You going to tell me that every time Wade has 10 assists, his team will win?


I think it was Bug earlier who tried to make the comparison of perfect game vs Kobe's 80, so I was just using that as a reference.

I wasn't saying anything about assist but yeah you're going to see a guy win more with a triple double while you hear about a guy scoring 50 (or there abouts) every night on sportscenter in a loss,

Individual excellence for a pitcher pays off alot more in the MLB than individual excellence in the NBA.

[sterlingice]

As for shot selection by his teammates

Odom - 12%
Brown - 20%
Sasha - 20%
George - 0%
Mihm - 60%
Smush - 45%

I'd say that the Lakers are easily the worst team in the NBA if you take off their top two players. Hell, I'd say top player at this juncture.Man, if those were my passing options, I guess I wouldn't pass the ball either ;)

Damn, amazing freaking performance.

SI

[ThunderingHERD]

Since the example was used, I know everytime Roger Clemens pitches a perfect game that the team is gonna win. Can you honestly say with all certainy that everytime Kobe scores 80 his team is gonna get the W?

Huh? Where the hell did that come from? I'm cracking up just trying to figure out how you might have considered this to be a good point before you posted it. If a guy gets 25 assists in a game, can you "say with all certainty" that his team is gonna get the W?

But yes, I can "honestly say with all certainty" that every time Kobe has scored 80 his team has got the W.

Haha, and what is your point?

That Kobe is MJ? that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread? what?

I didn't think it'd lite such a fire under you to say he isn't a team player and individual accomplishments in a team game (esp like the NBA) while stellar and a nice feat aren't what makes a player great.

My point is that Kobe's great play contributes to wins just as much as any other player of his caliber--regardless of your opinions of him which are based on nothing substantive. Until you come up with something substantive to support your laughable positions, I'm just gonna duck out and revel in not being you, k?

[Deattribution]

Huh? Where the hell did that come from? I'm cracking up just trying to figure out how you might have considered this to be a good point before you posted it. If a guy gets 25 assists in a game, can you "say with all certainty" that his team is gonna get the W?

But yes, I can "honestly say with all certainty" that every time Kobe has scored 80 his team has got the W.



My point is that Kobe's great play contributes to wins just as much as any other player of his caliber--regardless of your opinions of him which are based on nothing substantive. Until you come up with something substantive to support your laughable positions, I'm just gonna duck out and revel in not being you, k?

You only further support what I'm saying about you being an obvious Laker fan by constantly making this a personal issue, and if anything I revel in not taking this so seriously that I'm pathetic enough to personally attack someone.

Have fun not returning to the thread in 3 minutes.

If you actually read the thread, instead of making statements about what I'm saying (apparently you aren't reading those either) you'd realize where my reference came from.

[Schmidty]

Regardless of all of your ridiculous arguments about Kobe Fraudyant, I would love to see him get 81 points against the Pistons or Spurs. If he ever did that, it would be because he took 95% of the shots. The Fakers would get blown out of the water in a game like that.

Jordan (who I despise, but respect) scored a LOT, but he made the players around him better; all Kobe does is leech shots and glorify himself. He is a joke. He has the most talent of anyone in the NBA and the least amount of heart and desire/understanding as to how to win. The only reason he has his rings is because of two things: Shaq (who I hate), and intelligent teamates. Phil Jackson (who I hate), knew how to win and how to use the players he had to win. Kobe has forgotten that and become like Elvis in Las Vegas - Glitz with zero substance.

Kobe will never again be more than a bludgeon-point-scoring-non-winner until he realizes that he is a part of the team, not THE team. He will score 10,000,000 points when it doesn't matter, and get beat when it does.

[MrBug708]

Regardless of all of your ridiculous arguments about Kobe Fraudyant, I would love to see him get 81 points against the Pistons or Spurs. If he ever did that, it would be because he took 95% of the shots. The Fakers would get blown out of the water in a game like that.

Jordan (who I despise, but respect) scored a LOT, but he made the players around him better; all Kobe does is leech shots and glorify himself. He is a joke. He has the most talent of anyone in the NBA and the least amount of heart and desire/understanding as to how to win. The only reason he has his rings is because of two things: Shaq (who I hate), and intelligent teamates. Phil Jackson (who I hate), knew how to win and how to use the players he had to win. Kobe has forgotten that and become like Elvis in Las Vegas - Glitz with zero substance.

Kobe will never again be more than a bludgeon-point-scoring-non-winner until he realizes that he is a part of the team, not THE team. He will score 10,000,000 points when it doesn't matter, and get beat when it does.

On the rag?

Obviously Shaq didnt make Kobe better as Kobe is playing much better now :)

[Chief Rum]

It's amazing to me when you can hate an athlete so much, you can't even give him a shred of credit on an incredible night like tonight. Some people really need to take a step back from their hatred and acknowledge the amazing when it happens, even if their personal Satan (for Heaven knows what reasons) is the one doing it.

For instance, I could not stand Steve Young or John Elway, but that doesn't stop me from including them both in the top ten QBs I have ever seen play.

[Karlifornia]

Schmidty, I don't understand why you hate Shaq, Jordan, or Phil Jackson. Is it like a respect kind of hate?

[Deattribution]

It's amazing to me when you can hate an athlete so much, you can't even give him a shred of credit on an incredible night like tonight. Some people really need to take a step back from their hatred and acknowledge the amazing when it happens, even if their personal Satan (for Heaven knows what reasons) is the one doing it.

For instance, I could not stand Steve Young or John Elway, but that doesn't stop me from including them both in the top ten QBs I have ever seen play.

Who hasn't said it was a great achievement? or that Kobe wasn't a great player?

Just because everyone isn't dancing in the streets over it doesn't mean they aren't giving him a 'shred of credit'.

[Schmidty]

Schmidty, I don't understand why you hate Shaq, Jordan, or Phil Jackson. Is it like a respect kind of hate?

Oh, it's a respectful hate. I despise them, but think they are great at what they do.

I am a Detroit fan through and through. If you are my enemy, you are my enemy forever. That doesn't mean that I'm foolish enough to dismiss your skill, but it also doesn't lesson my disdain and "hatred" toward you, my foe.

[Chief Rum]

Who hasn't said it was a great achievement? or that Kobe wasn't a great player?

Just because everyone isn't dancing in the streets over it doesn't mean they aren't giving him a 'shred of credit'.

Don't quibble over word choice. We all know you don't give a flyin' rat's butt about what Kobe did tonight, and that it's because you view the NBA through Kobe-hate-colored glasses.

[Silence 32]

This might be a pretty good article for everyone that thinks Kobe "doesn't make his teamates better".

http://www.82games.com/pelton13.htm

[Deattribution]

Don't quibble over word choice. We all know you don't give a flyin' rat's butt about what Kobe did tonight, and that it's because you view the NBA through Kobe-hate-colored glasses.

Sarcasm, right?

Or it's fine if I'm riding his jock-strap and saying he does everything perfectly but not so okay if I question popular opinion, and also the mighty Kobe's team ability?

Not like this is a message board, and this thread would have been on page 2 by now if it weren't for some actual discussion instead of every post being 'great game' rinse and repeat.

Get real if you're serious.

[Schmidty]

Sarcasm, right?

Or it's fine if I'm riding his jock-strap and saying he does everything perfectly but not so okay if I question popular opinion, and also the mighty Kobe's team ability?

Not like this is a message board, and this thread would have been on page 2 by now if it weren't for some actual discussion instead of every post being 'great game' rinse and repeat.

Get real if you're serious.

Dude, don't question CR. He'll spend all night writing a 10 page diatribe about how wrong you are, and then in the middle of that will call you "morally corrupt". You just don't want to piss of the beast. ;)

[Deattribution]

Dude, don't question CR. He'll spend all night writing a 10 page diatribe about how wrong you are, and then in the middle of that will call you "morally corrupt". You just don't want to piss of the beast. ;)

lol, thanks for the advice :)

it just seems a little whacky to question someones opinion and merit of their statement when I'm making thoughtful responses not just 'DOOD KOBZ SUXXORZ BUT HE WAS GREET 2NITE'.

Anywho, I'm off to bed anyway so ya'll have fun.

[Schmidty]

Dude, don't question CR. He'll spend all night writing a 10 page diatribe about how wrong you are, and then in the middle of that will call you "morally corrupt". You just don't want to piss of the beast. ;)

Uh oh, I feel it coming........in

3....2.....1.....

:D

[Schmidty]

lol, thanks for the advice :)

it just seems a little whacky to question someones opinion and merit of their statement when I'm making thoughtful responses not just 'DOOD KOBZ SUXXORZ BUT HE WAS GREET 2NITE'.

Anywho, I'm off to bed anyway so ya'll have fun.

He's actually an awesome guy. The "morally corrupt" part was an inside joke regarding my trading habits in the RWBL. :)

[Chief Rum]

Sarcasm, right?

Or it's fine if I'm riding his jock-strap and saying he does everything perfectly but not so okay if I question popular opinion, and also the mighty Kobe's team ability?

Not like this is a message board, and this thread would have been on page 2 by now if it weren't for some actual discussion instead of every post being 'great game' rinse and repeat.

Get real if you're serious.

No sarcasm at all.

I'm no Kobe apologist. I'm not even a Lakers' fan. I'm that rare creature--a Clippers fan. So I don't like mad man-love for Kobe, anymore than hatin' on him unreasonably.

You can question popular opinion all you want. But makes you think you get a free "say what I want and don't get ripped" card? Questioning the opinions of others, especially from the apparent perspective of a personal bias, is going to get you called out. You see, your right to question popular opinion is the same that allows others to question your opinion. So deal with it.

I just don't think you're giving his achievement tonight its just due, and by a long shot. And I have to wonder why. It's obvious you can't stand the man, and you're letting your bias cloud your judgment.

And, oh I see, you're doing a great service by "providing discussion" and thus enlivening the board? I should have seen it. Thank you, oh great one. Please allow me be the first to give you a blowjob, and the forum line starts right behind me! (now that's sarcasm)

[sterlingice]

You Cali fans are so fun. Not as fun as Giants/Dodgers arguments. But this is amusing

SI

[Chief Rum]

He's actually an awesome guy. The "morally corrupt" part was an inside joke regarding my trading habits in the RWBL. :)

lol...thanks, Schmidty. I tried to keep it short. Looks like he went too bed. Bummer. I was about to begin my treatise.

[Schmidty]

lol...thanks, Schmidty. I tried to keep it short. Looks like he went too bed. Bummer. I was about to begin my treatise.

Ahh, next time I hope for a novel ;)

Seriously though, get back into the league soon. We need more fire. :D

[ThunderingHERD]

Looks like he went too bed. Bummer. I was about to begin my treatise.

You didn't miss much--he would have just repeated himself while ignoring everything you said. If you were lucky, he might have thrown in an absurd analogy.

[Deattribution]

No sarcasm at all.

I'm no Kobe apologist. I'm not even a Lakers' fan. I'm that rare creature--a Clippers fan. So I don't like mad man-love for Kobe, anymore than hatin' on him unreasonably.

You can question popular opinion all you want. But makes you think you get a free "say what I want and don't get ripped" card? Questioning the opinions of others, especially from the apparent perspective of a personal bias, is going to get you called out. You see you're right to question popular opinion is the same that allows others to question your opinion. So deal with it.

I just don't think you're giving his achievement tonight its just due, and by a long shot. And I have to wonder why. It's obvious you can't stand the man, and you're letting your bias cloud your judgment.

And, oh I see, you're doing a great service by "providing discussion" and thus enlivening the board? I should have seen it. Thank you, oh great one. Please allow me be the first to give you a blowjob, and the forum line starts right behind me! (now that's sarcasm)

Just because..

If you hadn't noticed, I wasn't talking to myself in this thread - so obviously you're already real big on giving out individual props even for things a single person isn't accomplishing.

I never said *I* created the discussion, I leave such over-confident and arrogant remarks to other people and obviously you know what I'm thinking, so I shouldn't really even be responding.

As far as 'I'm not giving his due' the Suns and the Sonics set the record for 3 pointers tonight in a double overtime 152 149 Sonics victory, Ray Allen scored the winner...

Did you start a thread about that? no. Do I care that you didn't? no. Am I going to say you don't care? no. Know why? Cause I don't really care, though I could accuse you of drinking Ray Allen Haterade if I just wanted to hear myself talk too.

You saying you don't think I'm not giving him enough props, yeah, it's your opinion, but I obviously cared enough to post in this thread, and about 25 post at that... So I'd take another route if I were going to attack what I was saying.

[Schmidty]

You didn't miss much--he would have just repeated himself while ignoring everything you said. If you were lucky, he might have thrown in an absurd analogy.

Regardless, Kobe is not a winner. He was just a passerby.

[Deattribution]

You didn't miss much--he would have just repeated himself while ignoring everything you said. If you were lucky, he might have thrown in an absurd analogy.

So absurd (the pitcher analogy) that I wasn't the first to say it, and that's why I brought it up.

I dont think pitchers should be allowed to complete a no hitter if their team is up by more then 3 runs.

Especially not if he's Roger Clemens or somebody and we all hate him and think he's selfish

Like I said, atleast read the thread if you're going to call out something I say in it.

[Schmidty]

Regardless, Kobe is not a winner. He was just a passerby.

By the way, I have no reason to hate. My team owned the Lakers the last time they won a Championship, and we are the best team in the NBA now (after going to game 7 last seaon). I'm not cracking on him for anything other than pure honesty.

[ThunderingHERD]

So absurd (the pitcher analogy) that I wasn't the first to say it, and that's why I brought it up.

Like I said, atleast read the thread if you're going to call out something I say in it.

Oh my lord. I was letting you slide on that the first time you brought it up because I felt that I had embarrassed you enough already. How can you not realize that was a sarcastic analogy jabbing at the people calling out Kobe for finishing the game?

[rexallllsc]

If you're ranting against Kobe tonight you simply didn't see the game. The Lakers were getting punked by 10-15 until Kobe turned it on, and then they won going away.

[Deattribution]

Oh my lord. I was letting you slide on that the first time you brought it up because I felt that I had embarrassed you enough already. How can you not realize that was a sarcastic analogy jabbing at the people calling out Kobe for finishing the game?

No shit, really?

:rolleyes:

What part of the comparison did you not comprehend?

It's still a comparison of noteworthy individual achievements and the difference between a individual performance that never hinders a team, and one that can.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand but apparently it is for some people.

Sad, really...

[Chief Rum]

Just because..

If you hadn't noticed, I wasn't talking to myself in this thread - so obviously you're already real big on giving out individual props even for things a single person isn't accomplishing.

I never said *I* created the discussion, I leave such over-confident and arrogant remarks to other people and obviously you know what I'm thinking, so I shouldn't really even be responding.

As far as 'I'm not giving his due' the Suns and the Sonics set the record for 3 pointers tonight in a double overtime 152 149 Sonics victory, Ray Allen scored the winner...

Did you start a thread about that? no. Do I care that you didn't? no. Am I going to say you don't care? no. Know why? Cause I don't really care, though I could accuse you of drinking Ray Allen Haterade if I just wanted to hear myself talk too.

You saying you don't think I'm not giving him enough props, yeah, it's your opinion, but I obviously cared enough to post in this thread, and about 25 post at that... So I'd take another route if I were going to attack what I was saying.

Never said you were the only one here, and if you want to refer to my original post, you'll note I mention no one by name--you merely the one who took the bait.

No, you didn't say you "created" the discussion, you suggested you're the reason this thread is so popular, and implying that you are contributing to some great cause toward the furthering of the FOFC forum. Forgive me for laughing at your own magnanimity.

As for the double overtime game, I also thought that would have been an amazing game to catch (I didn't unfortunately), but it has nothing to do with this. I don't know much about it, so I won't comment too much on the three-point record, although I will note that it's probably a little less amazing to break such records when you have an extra ten minutes with which to do it, no? (and not to mention in a game involving two back-and-forth teams like the Sonics and Suns)

I can't sit here starting a thread for every amazing achievement, and in fact, I didn't start this one other. I'm not generally inspired to start threads like this, but I guess I am occasionally inspired when I see someone with such obvious dislike for a player try to expound on that player's accomplishment without acknowledging his own bias beforehand.

As for why you posted, is that supposed to show how much you care for Kobe? Gimme a break. You care to hate him, and that's what inspires you to respond.

[ThunderingHERD]

No shit, really?

:rolleyes:

What part of the comparison did you not comprehend?

It's still a comparison of noteworthy individual achievements and the difference between a individual performance that never hinders a team, and one that can.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand but apparently it is for some people.

Sad, really...

The point of the analogy in its initial use was to show the hypocrisy of criticizing Kobe for staying in the game. No one would fault a pitcher for going for a no-hitter or a perfect game, even if the game were well out of hand. Yet you and others were criticizing Kobe for doing essentially the same thing, even though he was gunning for a performance even rarer than a perfect game.

The manner in which you used the analogy had no relation to its initial application. If indeed you understood it, your hilarious misuse of it still indicates a staggering lack of reasoning skills.

[Deattribution]

Never said you were the only one here, and if you want to refer to my original post, you'll note I mention no one by name--you merely the one who took the bait.

No, you didn't say you "created" the discussion, you suggested you're the reason this thread is so popular, and implying that you are contributing to some great cause toward the furthering of the FOFC forum. Forgive me for laughing at your own magnanimity.

As for the double overtime game, I also thought that would have been an amazing game to catch (I didn't unfortunately), but it has nothing to do with this. I don't know much about it, so I won't comment too much on the three-point record, although I will note that it's probably a little less amazing to break such records when you have an extra ten minutes with which to do it, no? (and not to mention in a game involving two back-and-forth teams like the Sonics and Suns)

I can't sit here starting a thread for every amazing achievement, and in fact, I didn't start this one other. I'm not generally inspired to start threads like this, but I guess I am occasionally inspired when I see someone with such obvious dislike for a player try to expound on that player's accomplishment without acknowledging his own bias beforehand.

As for why you posted, is that supposed to show how much you care for Kobe? Gimme a break. You care to hate him, and that's what inspires you to respond.


I didn't think it'd take a brain surgeon to realize I don't like Kobe, so I mean, if I really had to point that out in the beginning then whoever needed that comfirmation might as well give up on this thread. I said several times what he did was a great individual achievement, even comparing it to a perfect game.. Would you rather me go ahead and start a Kobe MVP thread? No thanks.

And let's not even go into contributing to anything when this has become not even about Kobe and about what I'm saying and how I feel so let's avoid that hypocrisy.

So Dr.Phil, when you get your PH.D and I setup an appointment, then you can start analyzing why I'm doing what I'm doing, and what I say and it's reasoning. I said crap about being why this thread is so popular, I simply said discussion kept it alive, and that's a no brainer.

If you want to refute WHAT I'm saying about Kobe as what Thunder was doing until he opted to just say stupid shit without even understanding what I was saying, then that's fine...

Otherwise this is really a waste.

[Deattribution]

The point of the analogy in its initial use was to show the hypocrisy of criticizing Kobe for staying in the game. No one would fault a pitcher for going for a no-hitter or a perfect game, even if the game were well out of hand. Yet you and others were criticizing Kobe for doing essentially the same thing, even though he was gunning for a performance even rarer than a perfect game.

The manner in which you used the analogy had no relation to its initial application. If indeed you understood it, your hilarious misuse of it still indicates a staggering lack of reasoning skills.

Nobody critisized Kobe for going for the 80. What are you reading?

It was a special ocassion, as shown by the fact it's 2nd most points ever in a game.

I said others could have achieved it (MY opinion), yeah, but I never said he was wrong for doing it.

[ThunderingHERD]

Nobody critisized Kobe for going for the 80. What are you reading?

It was a special ocassion, as shown by the fact it's 2nd most points ever in a game.

I said others could have achieved it (MY opinion), yeah, but I never said he was wrong for doing it.


And it's also something others could have accomplished but didn't - cause it wasn't necessary - by the time they scored 40 or 50 they also let their team take a few shots (more then 1 apiece) and the game is a blowout.

That is what I am reading. You are clearly saying that his continuing to play the game in the same manner he had all night was both unnecessary and selfish. I'd call that a criticism.

[Deattribution]

That is what I am reading. You are clearly saying that his continuing to play the game in the same manner he had all night was both unnecessary and selfish. I'd call that a criticism.

No that's me critisizing the manner it was done in, but that's either what he or the team felt was necessary. Not the fact that he went for it. I don't like the way the NBA is anymore, it's not a team game..

You telling me with all those shots he was taking that he didn't get any double or triple teaming?

And you telling me his wide-open teammates (if he's getting double/triple) who are NBA players can't make a open shot?

I specifically said by the time they have 40 or 50, it isn't necessary cause other teammates have taken a few shots too

Take it how you want, that's all I got to say.. you can refute My opinion all you want, it's not like youre gonna change it - so I have no idea why you give two shits to try.

Edit - to clarify it isn't for the fact he went for it, just the fact his teammates weren't involved at all. It's less a statement on him and more on the game.

[ThunderingHERD]

No that's me critisizing the manner it was done in, but that's either what he or the team felt was necessary. Not the fact that he went for it. I don't like the way the NBA is anymore, it's not a team game..

You telling me with all those shots he was taking that he didn't get any double or triple teaming?

And you telling me his wide-open teammates (if he's getting double/triple) who are NBA players can't make a open shot?

I can tell you that he shot 61% from the field, including 7-11 in the 4th quarter when, according to your once again uninformed opinion, he was taking bad shots.

I specifically said by the time they have 40 or 50, it isn't necessary cause other teammates have taken a few shots too

This is a completely arbitrary line you are drawing. If he's by far the best scorer on the team, and he shooting much better than anyone else, why shouldn't he take the shots? If he's hitting the shots, how does that not help the team?

Take it how you want, that's all I got to say.. you can refute My opinion all you want, it's not like youre gonna change it - so I have no idea why you give two shits to try.

I have no designs on changing your opinion--it's quite evident that you have resolved to believe stupid shit with no justification. It's just that I have trouble sitting by and watching people say stupid shit.

[Blade6119]

No that's me critisizing the manner it was done in, but that's either what he or the team felt was necessary. Not the fact that he went for it. I don't like the way the NBA is anymore, it's not a team game..

You telling me with all those shots he was taking that he didn't get any double or triple teaming?

And you telling me his wide-open teammates (if he's getting double/triple) who are NBA players can't make a open shot?

I specifically said by the time they have 40 or 50, it isn't necessary cause other teammates have taken a few shots too

Take it how you want, that's all I got to say.. you can refute My opinion all you want, it's not like youre gonna change it - so I have no idea why you give two shits to try.

Edit - to clarify it isn't for the fact he went for it, just the fact his teammates weren't involved at all. It's less a statement on him and more on the game.

I agree with everything he says, except for the last comment. i think kobe believes he has to do it himself, and whether you accept it or not he doesnt. Especially not against the raptors. His teamates are in the NBA for a reason...and to think, they want this guy to play team ball for team USA

[rexallllsc]

Again, to those saying he's being selfish, watch the game. Until Kobe took over, the Lakers were losing by 10-15 points.

[bbor]

I think what's lost in all this is just how bad the Rap's suck.

I think they will move out of Toronto before they get any better:(

[Fouts]

So much hate in this thread. Amazing performance, I don't care who it is.

[miami_fan]

Well I did not see the game but 81 points in an NBA game is absolutely amazing. I hate Kobe's actions as a person but if he would have came out of the game with his team only up by 6 at the beginning of the 4th quarter, I would have lost all respect for him as a player and would have labeled him as a quitter. I have a question for someone who actually saw the game. Based on the highlights I have seen so far, the Raptors seemed be playing off of him giving up the jump shot, rarely doule teamed him, and when the double team did come it was rather soft. Is that an accurate description of the entire game?

[SFL Cat]

Do the Lakers even bother to send four other players out on the wood with Kobe any more?

[Neon_Chaos]

Kobe Bryant kicks ass.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AosKz18bAj1d_dpP6L6CjEK8vLYF?slug=dw-kobe012206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=yspsctnhdln>One-man Showtime</TD></TR><TR><TD height=7><SPACER type="block" width="1" height="1"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>By Dan Wetzel (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/expertsarchive?author=Dan+Wetzel), Yahoo! Sports
January 23, 2006

<TABLE id=ysparticleheadshot cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 align=left border=0 hspace="5" vspace="5"><TBODY><TR><TD class=ysptblbdr2><TABLE class=yspwhitebg cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE class=yspwhitebg cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/cn/headshots/dan_wetzel_4.jpg (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/expertsarchive?author=Dan+Wetzel)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Kobe Bryant ("]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/p/yse_lo_70x24_2.gif[/url]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Los Angeles Lakers[/color] (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/lal/) were getting pounded by the Toronto Raptors (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/tor/) (down 16 at one point) until Kobe looked at his bad teammates and decided to try to win the game – which the Lakers did, 122-104.

<TABLE cellPadding=1 align=right border=0 hspace="10" vspace="5"><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>ADVERTISEMENT
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SCRIPT type=text/javascript>if (window.yzq_a == null) document.write("<scr\" + \"ipt type=text/javascript src=""http://us.js2.yimg.com/us.js.yimg.com/lib/bc/bc_1.7.2.js></scr" + "ipt>");</SCRIPT><SCRIPT type=text/javascript>if (window.yzq_a){yzq_a('p', 'P=jfHBK0LaR9G_VdTOQ9S7MA8V0tW9FEPU3wcADulo&T=13rloicl1%2fX%3d1138024200%2fE%3d96191722%2fR%3dsports%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d1.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d1881791654%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dBCA849D1');yzq_a('a', '&U=139kmape8%2fN%3dvd1mB0LaRZE-%2fC%3d391743.7812840.8662028.1414694%2fD%3dLREC%2fB%3d3166113');}</SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT>http://bc.us.yahoo.com/b?P=jfHBK0LaR9G_VdTOQ9S7MA8V0tW9FEPU3wcADulo&T=140av9lrg%2fX%3d1138024200%2fE%3d96191722%2fR%3dsports%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3d8%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d3017071361%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dBCA849D1&U=139kmape8%2fN%3dvd1mB0LaRZE-%2fC%3d391743.7812840.8662028.1414694%2fD%3dLREC%2fB%3d3166113</NOSCRIPT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>"It just happened," Bryant said afterward. "For me, it was all about the W. I thought we were lethargic. I wanted to ride the wave and demoralize our opponent."

And people want to criticize that?

You know, even if a few of those points were unnecessary – and because the game was in doubt until late in the fourth quarter, not many of them were – who cares? Really, what is wrong with trying to make history? Don't the Raptors get paid, too?

If a baseball player hits a home run in his first three at-bats, does anyone blame him for swinging for the fences his next time up? Does anyone complain when a manager doesn't even think to take a tiring pitcher out of a no-hitter, even if it is the best move for the team to win?

When Peyton Manning is trying to set a single-season touchdown record and calls for pass plays on first-and-goal from the 1, does anyone care?

Of course not, you expect it. You demand it, even.

So why in basketball does it matter? Is it because the players are mostly black? Is it because they are prone to preening?

Is it because in basketball you have to play both offense and defense on every single possession you are in the game, and as a result your weaknesses are up for double exposure? Is it because Kobe Bryant can be rather unlikable – be it the [url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/847/"]Shaquille O'Neal (http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12hei26nl/M=391743.7812840.8662028.1414694/D=sports/S=96191722:LREC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1138031400/A=3166113/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=11a3mcbrb/*http://answers.yahoo.com?fr=ad-on-ron-a1) thing, or the Eagle, Colo., thing, or so many other things?

Is it because there remains this "Hoosiers"-inspired purity to the game, even if coach Norman Dale would have wanted Jimmy Chitwood to keep shooting?

Maybe it is all of that above. I don't know.

I do know that back in the 1960s and '70s it wasn't like this. The gunner was celebrated. Pete Maravich, David Thompson, even Larry Bird (in the 1980s) all admittedly were selfish on some nights. It was fun. It was part of the show.

Now, no one even tries to put up big numbers. Prior to Sunday, of the top 25 highest-scoring (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=50pointsinagame&prov=st&type=lgns), non-overtime games in NBA history, only one occurred after 1978 – the 1994 season finale when David Robinson scored 71 to make the case for MVP.

Why have we sucked the fun right out of the game?

Kobe Bryant scored 66.4 percent of his team's points. Wilt, in scoring 100 in his Philadelphia Warriors' 169-147 victory, managed just 59.2 percent. So maybe Kobe's performance was better, especially since he didn't enjoy Wilt's advantage of being 7-foot-1 and 275 pounds in an era of no one else being even close.

By the way, that Warriors score also should end all the other predictable talk about how nobody plays defense in the NBA anymore. Who was playing defense on Wilt's night?

NBA players play defense. They play a ton of defense. One of the great fallacies of basketball is the idea that college guys play harder defense than the pros. Apparently, the sight of a slow guard slapping the floor in a show of "intensity" has clouded reality.

If you think the Raptors wanted Bryant to hang 81 on them, you didn't see the game. They just couldn't stop him. They tried everything, every defender.

Kobe was that on. He was that great. It was that much fun. Yet there will be critics who claim that 81 points in a game isn't sports, that it isn't basketball. But if you think sending chills down fans' spines isn't sports, then you need to lighten up – and tune in Friday to see if Kobe can hang 101 on Golden State.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[ISiddiqui]

I think this thread is interesting because we can see just how big of a hole Deattribution can dig for himself. He should cut his losses now.

[MrBug708]

The bastard stole my analogy!

It took Wilt 20 more shots to score 19 more points. Kobe was that on

[MrBug708]

I agree with everything he says, except for the last comment. i think kobe believes he has to do it himself, and whether you accept it or not he doesnt. Especially not against the raptors. His teamates are in the NBA for a reason...and to think, they want this guy to play team ball for team USA

Cant believe you don't want the best player in the NBA on the US team

[stevew]

Cant believe you don't want the best player in the NBA on the US team

Yeah, Lebron already signed up.

[jeff061]

Cant believe you don't want the best player in the NBA on the US teamYeah, because his type of attitude worked out so well on the USA team the last time around.

[Young Drachma]

Kobe is really crazy...that's nuts and the guy keeps turning heads. This time, in a good way.

[Butter]

Yeah, Lebron already signed up.
SCORE!

But 81 points... that's crazy. I guess that's what happens when you don't watch ESPNEWS one night. Someone goes out of their head and I miss the damn highlights. Oh well.

[MrBug708]

Yeah, because his type of attitude worked out so well on the USA team the last time around.

Well, they could have used someone with his ability to hit a shot

[MrBug708]

Yeah, Lebron already signed up.

If by best you inferred most hyped, then you are correct sir

[Ksyrup]

I hate the NBA, and even I wished I could have seen this. I think this was the perfect game for Kobe to have after the game a month or so ago when he took himself out. He took criticism for that from a number of people. Then he had this game, and what's even better is that it wasn't a blowout that he decided to stay in for (although it looks like they pulled away toward the end). I think it's ridiculous that the guy took 46 shots, but he hit 28 of them, and in my less-than-great basketball thinking, that's pretty damn good. It's not like he took 46 shots, made 30% of them, and finished with 55 point or something.

Frankly, I have far less respect for what David Robinson (and his teammates and probably the other team) did on the last day of the regular season during Shaq's rookie year, when the players were determined not to let Shaq win the scoring title as a rookie, so they continually fed Robinson the ball in a meaningless game and allowed him to score 71 just to spite Shaq. That's the kind of crap that I don't like to see. This, I have no problem with.

[st.cronin]

Kobe Bryant is every bit as unappreciated as Scottie Pippen was, and a better player. How many titles has Shaq won without Kobe?

[Easy Mac]

It still is, it's just not so amazing when you consider given a similiar amount of attempts Charles Barkley could put up 60 on the Raptors and he hasn't played in like a decade.
Just to kill the already dead horse.

Wilt put up 100 against the Knicks. The Knicks finished 29-51, next to last in the NBA (8/9). Chamberlain and his Warriors were firmly in second place by that time in the season, they had 3 games left and were assured of their spot in the playoffs. They had a 19 point lead entering the 4th quarter. Wilt also had only 2 assists, and 4 other players scored in double figures in spite of this, with 3 teammates shooting >50% (so he could have passed more). So it was an the game was of no consequence, it was already decided when he had 69 through 3 quarters, yet its considered a great achievement.

Contrast that with Kobe, his team up 6 heading into the 4th. The Raptors are better than 4 teams in the NBA (25/30). So they are tougher competition than the Knicks against Wilt. Only 2 players had double figures, with only Chris Mihm shooting >50%. So Kobe's teammates were playing worse than Wilt's. Kobe score 28 in the 4th quarter to Wilt's 31, again the game not decided.

So which is a greater achievment.

[st.cronin]

The best thing about this thread is the criticism of Kobe for saying it was all about the win - trying to make that out to be hypocrisy.

I hate Kobe as much as anybody, and wish he would just go away, but I think that has to be on the short list for best performances in the history of the game.

[PackerFanatic]

81 f'n points...just insane.

[Neon_Chaos]

Kobe Bryant's Statline for the season afer that ridiculous comeback win and 81 points:

40.5 mpg, 36.0 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.3 spg, 3.0 topg

He's averaging nearly a point a minute... AND is getting about 4 assists each game. The bastard is putting up a career season.

1 minute left in the game, you're team is down by 6 points. Which single NBA player would you want to be on your team? Kobe Bryant, hands down.

[Ksyrup]

So which is a greater achievment.Wilt's achievement is greater, because he didn't have to force the thousands of women whom he reportedly screwed to sleep with him.

Wait, what were we comparing again? :cool:

[SFL Cat]

Kobe Bryant is every bit as unappreciated as Scottie Pippen was, and a better player. How many titles has Shaq won without Kobe?

The same number Kobe has won without Shaq -- Zero.

[jeff061]

But every team Shaq has been on has been a contender. Which leads us to the Shaqless Lakers era....

[rexallllsc]

1 minute left in the game, you're team is down by 6 points. Which single NBA player would you want to be on your team? Kobe Bryant, hands down.

BUT HE MIGHT NOT PASS IT TO LAMAR ODOM*!!!!


*Who can single-handedly lose 4 point leads in 20 seconds.

[sterlingice]

Damn, this needs to make it onto ESPN Classic as an instant classic but I'm not seeing it there :(

SI

[Eaglesfan27]

But every team Shaq has been on has been a contender. Which leads us to the Shaqless Lakers era....

Exactly. I'm willing to bet that Kobe doesn't even make it to the Finals for at least 5 years. Maybe by that point, he'll realize that he needs to make his teammates better, and not just go for personal glory.

[rexallllsc]

Exactly. I'm willing to bet that Kobe doesn't even make it to the Finals for at least 5 years. Maybe by that point, he'll realize that he needs to make his teammates better, and not just go for personal glory.

What the hell? Did you guys even see the game or watch the Lakers?

The team was DOWN 15 last night when Kobe was trying to "make his teammates better" - when Kobe took over the Laker won going away.

Does anyone know what happens when Kobe defers to Lamar? Laker fans do.

[SFL Cat]

What the hell? Did you guys even see the game or watch the Lakers?

The team was DOWN 15 last night when Kobe was trying to "make his teammates better" - when Kobe took over the Laker won going away.

Does anyone know what happens when Kobe defers to Lamar? Laker fans do.

Of course, if Kobe is playing in a game that matters and is facing a decent team that plays good defense and isn't just going through the motions, he faces a double team most of the evening, still takes his usual "Kobe" share of shots, hits maybe 20-25% of his field goal attempts, and the Lakers lose by double digits. I don't care how great a player you are, one against five is a loser every time.

[jeff061]

Well I guess I didn't realize that game won the championship for them or put them in the top 7 in the western conference. My bad.

If Kobe had left instead of Shaq the Lakers would still be amongst the best in the league.

[rexallllsc]

Well I guess I didn't realize that game won the championship for them or put them in the top 7 in the western conference. My bad.

There are lots of games that are played every night by teams in the same position and no one scores 81. Sorry, but you guys are just haaaateerrrs.

If Kobe had left instead of Shaq the Lakers would still be amongst the best in the league.

Doubtful. Shaq is having the worst year of his career this year, and this is after he got all excited and "in shape" to play for the Heat last year. I shudder to think what he'd be like if he came in out of shape last year.

Sorry, but Shaq sealed his fate after yelling at the owner of the team.

[SFL Cat]

Lets see

L.A. Lakers (03-04 -- with Shaq & Kobe) 56-26
L.A. Lakers (04-05 -- minus Shaq) 34-48
Difference = -22 games

Miami Heat (03-04 -- pre Shaq) 42-40
Miami Heat (04-05 -- with Shaq) 59-23
Difference = +17 games

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

[Butter]

I think there is a middle ground to be had here.

81 points is an incredible feat. Incredible. No question about it. I don't know if any other player in the NBA could match that today.

But does being the best scorer in the league make one the best player? Not necessarily. And Kobe is the quintessential me-first player. And those of you who are failing to realize that either have yellow-colored glasses on, or are not looking at the stats. And the stats show that the Lakers aren't a very good team. They are a mediocre team with one world class player.

Kobe can have had a remarkable, unbelievable, possibly unmatchable game where he single-handedly brought his team back and won a game for them... and still be a selfish, me-first player who doesn't make his teammates better.

He is a great player, no doubt. Just a great player. But this is a discussion thread about Kobe Bryant, so those who dislike him will let themselves be heard as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... let's all give it a friggin' rest. Amazing feat... and Phil Jackson is no dummy. He is maximizing this team's chance at success by giving Kobe free rein.

[jeff061]

There are lots of games that are played every night by teams in the same position and no one scores 81. Sorry, but you guys are just haaaateerrrs.I'm not a hater and I don't see your point of view. I just realize all that matters is the wins, and since Shaq left they have been far less abundant. So congrats to Kobe on all his points, I'm not sure why people prefer Kobe's points over Lakers wins.

[rkmsuf]

I'm not a hater and I don't see your point of view. I just realize all that matters is the wins, and since Shaq left they have been far less abundant. So congrats to Kobe on all his points, I'm not sure why people prefer Kobe's points over Lakers wins.

What I don't get is why it's a knock on either guy. You put these two together and of course they win. You split them up and it's a function of who is around them to complement them. Look at the teams. Wade is Kobe light. Who is Shaq light?

I'm not Kobe guy. He's an asshat. Talent wise he's great.

[SFL Cat]

I think there is a middle ground to be had here.

81 points is an incredible feat. Incredible. No question about it. I don't know if any other player in the NBA could match that today.

But does being the best scorer in the league make one the best player? Not necessarily. And Kobe is the quintessential me-first player. And those of you who are failing to realize that either have yellow-colored glasses on, or are not looking at the stats. And the stats show that the Lakers aren't a very good team. They are a mediocre team with one world class player.

Kobe can have had a remarkable, unbelievable, possibly unmatchable game where he single-handedly brought his team back and won a game for them... and still be a selfish, me-first player who doesn't make his teammates better.

He is a great player, no doubt. Just a great player. But this is a discussion thread about Kobe Bryant, so those who dislike him will let themselves be heard as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... let's all give it a friggin' rest. Amazing feat... and Phil Jackson is no dummy. He is maximizing this team's chance at success by giving Kobe free rein.

Well said.

It may be another 40-50 years before we see another player get close to what Bryant did on the scoreboard. However, until Kobe learns that there is no "I" in team or retires, I don't think the Lakers will see another championship.

[Deattribution]

I'm not a hater and I don't see your point of view. I just realize all that matters is the wins, and since Shaq left they have been far less abundant. So congrats to Kobe on all his points, I'm not sure why people prefer Kobe's points over Lakers wins.

Talking to the wrong crowd.

Some people will never understand the team concept and that you don't build any momentum for your team by taking all the shots - no matter how successful you are at scoring.

Right now Kobe has momentum, yeah, big whoop, but when he lays an egg against a decent team and his teammates can't bail him out cause they haven't played a full game all season (you know, more then 2 or 3 shots apiece), they'll be blamed as shitty teammates anyway.

[Raiders Army]

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

[timmynausea]

4 pages about the NBA? I think that might be more amazing than Kobe's 81 points.

[PackerFanatic]

4 pages about the NBA? I think that might be more amazing than Kobe's 81 points.

Quoted for truth.

How sad that football is almost over :(

[Eaglesfan27]

I think there is a middle ground to be had here.

81 points is an incredible feat. Incredible. No question about it. I don't know if any other player in the NBA could match that today.

But does being the best scorer in the league make one the best player? Not necessarily. And Kobe is the quintessential me-first player. And those of you who are failing to realize that either have yellow-colored glasses on, or are not looking at the stats. And the stats show that the Lakers aren't a very good team. They are a mediocre team with one world class player.

Kobe can have had a remarkable, unbelievable, possibly unmatchable game where he single-handedly brought his team back and won a game for them... and still be a selfish, me-first player who doesn't make his teammates better.

He is a great player, no doubt. Just a great player. But this is a discussion thread about Kobe Bryant, so those who dislike him will let themselves be heard as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... let's all give it a friggin' rest. Amazing feat... and Phil Jackson is no dummy. He is maximizing this team's chance at success by giving Kobe free rein.

Good post. As is the post above your post. The bottom line is winning.

[MrBug708]

Lets see

L.A. Lakers (03-04 -- with Shaq & Kobe) 56-26
L.A. Lakers (04-05 -- minus Shaq) 34-48
Difference = -22 games

Miami Heat (03-04 -- pre Shaq) 42-40
Miami Heat (04-05 -- with Shaq) 59-23
Difference = +17 games

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Stupid arguement. If Shaq was the only player to leave then you could have something to talk about. Lakers lost Phil Jackson, Karl Malone, Shaq, Derek Fisher, Gary Payton amoung others. 3 HOF's besides Shaq as well as a fan favorite and proven player

[Easy Mac]

I'm not a hater and I don't see your point of view. I just realize all that matters is the wins, and since Shaq left they have been far less abundant. So congrats to Kobe on all his points, I'm not sure why people prefer Kobe's points over Lakers wins.You realize that the Lakers are only 2 games worse than the Heat this season, splitting thier series 1-1 so far. Only 1 team in the Laker's division is worse than the teams in the Heat's division. The Lakers are 2-4 in their division, the Heat 5-1. Switch their places and who knows which team has the better record.

[rexallllsc]

Lets see

L.A. Lakers (03-04 -- with Shaq & Kobe) 56-26
L.A. Lakers (04-05 -- minus Shaq) 34-48
Difference = -22 games

Miami Heat (03-04 -- pre Shaq) 42-40
Miami Heat (04-05 -- with Shaq) 59-23
Difference = +17 games

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

And in their second year apart from each other, the teams are about even because Shaq is out of shape and having his worst season ever. The Lakers made the right move (this wasn't going to be worked out).

[rexallllsc]

Talking to the wrong crowd.

Some people will never understand the team concept and that you don't build any momentum for your team by taking all the shots - no matter how successful you are at scoring.

Right now Kobe has momentum, yeah, big whoop, but when he lays an egg against a decent team and his teammates can't bail him out cause they haven't played a full game all season (you know, more then 2 or 3 shots apiece), they'll be blamed as shitty teammates anyway.

Again, did you watch the game?

The Lakers stunk last night until he took over. Then they won going away.

As far as them bailing him out - who on the Lakers even has the talent to bail him out? There is no Pippen. Anyone who consistently watches this team cans ee that Lamar Odom should be a third option, not a second. He lost a 4 point lead in 12 seconds a few nights back v. the Kings.

[kingfc22]

Heat against the East 12-8.
Lakers against the East 13-5. You really think the Lakers would be anything less than the #4 seed in the East I don't think so.

So don't try and use the W/L record as a comparison for the Heat and Lakers. The East SUCKS other than Detroit.

[SFL Cat]

Stupid arguement. If Shaq was the only player to leave then you could have something to talk about. Lakers lost Phil Jackson, Karl Malone, Shaq, Derek Fisher, Gary Payton amoung others. 3 HOF's besides Shaq as well as a fan favorite and proven player

In addition to his feud with Shaq, I seem to recall insinuations about Kobe having a hand in Karl Malone AND Phil Jackson leaving as well after the 03-04 season. Also, I don't think too many would argue that Payton was only a shadow of the player he was in his prime (this was especially evident in the playoffs).

Besides, how many quality players (who tend to have their own massive egos) are going to want to join the Lakers and be forced to play second-fiddle to a ball-hog like Kobe?

[MrBug708]

In addition to his feud with Shaq, I seem to recall insinuations about Kobe having a hand in Karl Malone AND Phil Jackson leaving as well after the 03-04 season. Also, I don't think too many would argue that Payton was only a shadow of the player he was in his prime (this was especially evident in the playoffs).

Besides, how many quality players (who tend to have their own massive egos) are going to want to join the Lakers and be forced to play second-fiddle to a ball-hog like Kobe?

I guess it remains to be seen til the Lakers get some cap space. How many bigtime FA's are out there?

[rexallllsc]

In addition to his feud with Shaq, I seem to recall insinuations about Kobe having a hand in Karl Malone AND Phil Jackson leaving as well after the 03-04 season. Also, I don't think too many would argue that Payton was only a shadow of the player he was in his prime (this was especially evident in the playoffs).

Besides, how many quality players (who tend to have their own massive egos) are going to want to join the Lakers and be forced to play second-fiddle to a ball-hog like Kobe?

Shaq is gone in part because he publicly embarrassed Jerry Buss, and secondly because his body was obviously breaking down.

Man, I sure do wish the Lakers had a $30 mil/year Shaq who was averaging 18 and 9.

[MrBug708]

In addition to his feud with Shaq, I seem to recall insinuations about Kobe having a hand in Karl Malone AND Phil Jackson leaving as well after the 03-04 season. Also, I don't think too many would argue that Payton was only a shadow of the player he was in his prime (this was especially evident in the playoffs).

Besides, how many quality players (who tend to have their own massive egos) are going to want to join the Lakers and be forced to play second-fiddle to a ball-hog like Kobe?

Also, the arguement you made was that Kobe didn't make his surrounding players better. And I pointed out the Lakers lost a lot which explains why they werent the same team.

[SirFozzie]

Interesting article comparing Wilt's 100 to Kobe's 81:

It seems at first glance that Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point night in 1962 is far superior to Kobe Bryant's 81-point game Sunday. After all, Bryant still needed 19 more points -- roughly Pau Gasol's average -- just to catch the Dipper.

But if you stack the two games side by side, you'll come to the startling realization that Bryant's performance was actually far superior. Breaking the two games down by the numbers, it quickly becomes apparent what a dominant night Kobe had. Consider the facts:

Bryant was more efficient. Bryant needed 46 shot attempts and 20 free throws to get 81 points. Chamberlain needed 63 field-goal attempts and 32 free-throw tries to get his 100. Bryant's true shooting percentage for the night was 73.9 percent; Chamberlain's was only 63.9 percent.

Bryant's performance was more real. In Chamberlain's game, the Warriors intentionally fouled the Knicks in the final minute of play to get the ball back for another Chamberlain try at the century mark. Only on his third try did he get to 100. At the time, his team was comfortably ahead, as it was for the entire second half, and it won 169-147. Bryant, on the other hand, got almost all his points when they were desperately needed, as his team trailed by 18 early in the third quarter.

Bryant needed fewer minutes. If you want to really be amazed, consider the fact that Kobe sat out for six minutes in the second quarter. So Bryant scored his 81 points in only 42 minutes, while Wilt played the full 48 in his 100-point effort. Had he played for an additional six minutes and scored at the same rate (hardly an unreasonable assumption, given how much gas he appeared to have at the end), Kobe would have finished with 93 points. Yes, 93.

The game was different. Of all the differences between Bryant's game and Chamberlain's, this one is perhaps the biggest. Chamberlain's game ended up 169-147, Bryant's 122-104. Obviously, there was a huge difference in the speed of play, and that meant Chamberlain had far more opportunities to score than Bryant did.

Chamberlain's game featured 233 field-goal attempts versus 164 for Bryant's, and 93 free-throw attempts to 60 for Bryant's. We have no data on turnovers and offensive rebounds for Chamberlain's game, but based on the numbers I just mentioned, we can estimate there were 46 percent more possessions in the Chamberlain game than in the Kobe game.

If that's the case, we need to inflate Kobe's numbers by 46 percent to get an accurate idea of what it equates to in Chamberlain's era. The answer? An unbelievable 118 points. And if we add in six extra minutes for Bryant, we end up with the mind-boggling total of 135. By one player. In one game.

Another way to look at it is by deflating Chamberlain's numbers by a similar amount. If we change his currency into "2006 points," so to speak, the Stilt ends up with 68 points -- still an awesome performance, but clearly not on a level with Kobe's 81-point outburst. And once you adjust for the 48 minutes Chamberlain played vs. Kobe's 42, you end up with 60 points for Wilt -- or just a bit more than Kobe rang up in the second half.

So when our Marc Stein says this is the most amazing performance ever, believe it. Once you adjust for the differences in pace between the two eras and the fact that Bryant sat out for six minutes, even Chamberlain's monumental 100-point game pales by comparison. For basketball historians, Bryant's effort is now the scoring effort against which all others should be measured.

[SFL Cat]

Shaq is gone in part because he publicly embarrassed Jerry Buss, and secondly because his body was obviously breaking down.

Man, I sure do wish the Lakers had a $30 mil/year Shaq who was averaging 18 and 9.

I'm sure Buss does too. That way when good defensive teams neutralize Kobe or he has one of his occassional stinkeroo performances, the Lakers still might have a chance to actually win the game.

[ThunderingHERD]

But does being the best scorer in the league make one the best player? Not necessarily. And Kobe is the quintessential me-first player. And those of you who are failing to realize that either have yellow-colored glasses on, or are not looking at the stats. And the stats show that the Lakers aren't a very good team. They are a mediocre team with one world class player.

Kobe can have had a remarkable, unbelievable, possibly unmatchable game where he single-handedly brought his team back and won a game for them... and still be a selfish, me-first player who doesn't make his teammates better.


What evidence do you have to suggest that Kobe is a me-first player? Shaq's whining? What evidence do you have that he "doesn't make his teammates better"? YOu mention the stats, I haven't seen one stat brought up in this thread that lends itself to your point of view. In fact, all the stats have pointed the other way.

Who is this player that is so much better than Kobe and "makes his teammates better" leading to so much more wins? LeBron? His team couldn't make the playoffs in the eastern conference last year and, despite adding an all-star caliber player in the offseason, their record is virtually indentical to the Lakers this season. Dwyane Wade? Miami barely has a better record than LA right now but, without Shaq, Wade's team is only 9-9.

Please, tell us to who, exactly, you are comparing Kobe?

[SFL Cat]

Comparing the top performers from the 03-04 Lakers and 04-05 Lakers (based on minutes played)

GUARDS

In 03-04 Kobe averaged 24 points-per-game on 21.5 field goal attempts per game (includes 2pt and 3pt) He shot .438 from 2-point range and .327 from 3-point range. He averaged 5.1 assists-per-game.

In 04-05 Kobe averaged 27.6 points-per game on 25.9 field goal attempts per game. He shot .433 and .339 and averaged 6.0 assists per game.

In 03-04, Gary Payton averaged 14.6 points per game on 14.5 field goal attempts per game. His percentages were .471 and .333.

In 04-05, Chucky Atkins averaged 13.6 points per game on 16.6 field goal attempts per game. He shot .426 and .387.

Analysis: About even -- A little more production from Bryant in 04-05 to offset a little less production from Atkins, who replaced Payton.

FORWARDS

In 03-04, forwards Karl Malone and Devean George combined for 20.6 points per game on 16.9 field goal attempts per game. Malone took more of those shots (averaging 9.5 attempts per game).

Suprisingly, in 04-05 Caron Butler and Lamar Odom averaged 30.7 points per game on 28.4 field goal attempts per game. Both took about the same number of shots per game. Butler and Odom also averaged 7.8 boards per game compared to the 03-04 starters' 5.6.

Analysis: The 04-05 Lakers actually got more production from their forwards than did the 03-04 squad.

CENTER

In 03-04 Shaq averaged 21.5 points per game on 14.2 field goal attempts per game. He pulled down 11.5 rebounds and shot .584.

In 04-05 Chris Mihm average 9.8 points per game on 7.4 field goal attempts per game. He averaged 6.7 rebounds per game and shot .505.

Analysis: Is it really necessary?

So you tell me, what component from 03-04 to 04-05 would you say played a major role in the Lakers going from 56-26 to 34-48?

[ThunderingHERD]

Comparing the top performers from the 03-04 Lakers and 04-05 Lakers (based on minutes played)

GUARDS

In 03-04 Kobe averaged 24 points-per-game on 21.5 field goal attempts per game (includes 2pt and 3pt) He shot .438 from 2-point range and .327 from 3-point range. He averaged 5.1 assists-per-game.

In 04-05 Kobe averaged 27.6 points-per game on 25.9 field goal attempts per game. He shot .433 and .339 and averaged 6.0 assists per game.

In 03-04, Gary Payton averaged 14.6 points per game on 14.5 field goal attempts per game. His percentages were .471 and .333.

In 04-05, Chucky Atkins averaged 13.6 points per game on 16.6 field goal attempts per game. He shot .426 and .387.

Analysis: About even -- A little more production from Bryant in 04-05 to offset a little less production from Atkins, who replaced Payton.

FORWARDS

In 03-04, forwards Karl Malone and Devean George combined for 20.6 points per game on 16.9 field goal attempts per game. Malone took more of those shots (averaging 9.5 attempts per game).

Suprisingly, in 04-05 Caron Butler and Lamar Odom averaged 30.7 points per game on 28.4 field goal attempts per game. Both took about the same number of shots per game. Butler and Odom also averaged 7.8 boards per game compared to the 03-04 starters' 5.6.

Analysis: The 04-05 Lakers actually got more production from their forwards than did the 03-04 squad.

CENTER

In 03-04 Shaq averaged 21.5 points per game on 14.2 field goal attempts per game. He pulled down 11.5 rebounds and shot .584.

In 04-05 Chris Mihm average 9.8 points per game on 7.4 field goal attempts per game. He averaged 6.7 rebounds per game and shot .505.

Analysis: Is it really necessary?

So you tell me, what component from 03-04 to 04-05 would you say played a major role in the Lakers going from 56-26 to 34-48?

Huh? What is your point? That Shaq is good? Congratulations on winning that one.

But how is it relevant at all?

[SFL Cat]

My point is that Shaq was just as responsible, if not more so, for the Lakers' success during the championship run as Kobe Bryant was.

[ThunderingHERD]

Ok, I agree with that. I don't know that anyone war arguing otherwise.

[jbmagic]

how many championship Shaq won with Orlando and Miami? ZERO

[Eaglesfan27]

how many championship Shaq won with Orlando and Miami? ZERO

How many Conference Finals and NBA Finals has he been to? Quite a few more than Kobe has been without Shaq. Unless Kobe learns to share the ball, I doubt Kobe will ever even that tally.

[sterlingice]

how many championship Shaq won with Orlando and Miami? ZEROThat's an awfully high standard any an incomplete one, to boot.

How many Super Bowl rings does Dan Marino have? Steve Bono? I think we all know who was better and more valuable to their team.

SI

[SFL Cat]

Shaqs gotten a lot closer than Kobe ever will by himself unless he changes his "me-first" ways.

[MrBug708]

Shaqs gotten a lot closer than Kobe ever will by himself unless he changes his "me-first" ways.

So if Kobe gets to one within thte next 3 years, is that because he changed? Or had better teammates?

[SFL Cat]

Both.

[jbmagic]

Jordan shot a lot in his early years in Chicago.

When he got better teammates, is win he won a lot of championships.

[rexallllsc]

My point is that Shaq was just as responsible, if not more so, for the Lakers' success during the championship run as Kobe Bryant was.

Yes. Not to mention Shaq was (rightfully) the MVP in their back-to-back-to-back run.

That doesn't say anything about Kobe other than he's not a 7'2 dominant Center.

[Julio Riddols]

What I'm getting is this..

Point 1. Shaq needs a guy like Kobe, Kobe needs a guy like Shaq.

Point 2. Regardless of how much a "team player" Kobe is, scoring 81 points against ANYONE and shooting well above 50 percent while doing so in a game where his team was on the low end of a 15 point deficit means he CARRIED the team on this night. Kobe does as much to make his team better as Jordan ever did for Chicago. Jordan had a much stronger supporting cast in his championship years, but there were undoubtedly games for him where he chucked 30 plus shots and only connected on 8 or 10 of them. He was lucky to have a team around him that could help out a little more when he had bad nights. I really hate both of them for their roles in knocking my Pacers out of the playoffs every single year they ever had a chance to take the title.

Point 3. All this argument over people hating and giving credit where its due.. To me it comes down to this. Either you watch sports to see a specific set of standards met, or you watch sports to see someone defy those standards. I, for one, would much rather see someone just completely lose it and score 81 points to bring his team back from behind in a game that obviously matters (considering the Lakers playoff hopes are in danger on a game by game basis) than watch a game where a team wins because they played as a team and everybody did their part. That is not to say that I wouldn't want to see that "team game" be played, but seeing someone go berserk to take their team on their backs and win it for them is something rare and special.

point 4. I don't understand why deattribution missed his bedtime last night. I may not have had to read so much "non-point non-counterpoint" and could have just said "Great game by Kobe, I wish I could have seen it, because that will probably not happen again until I'm 50 or so."

point 5. (points to the right) I'm out.

[Neon_Chaos]

Statistical analysis of the myth that Kobe detracts from his team-mates when he is on the court.

http://82games.com/pelton13.htm

[QuikSand]

http://82games.com/pelton13.htm


Nice work, toad.

[Senator]

I miss football season.

[miami_fan]

I am not questioning the message one single bit. However, I literally laughed out loud where I heard who said it.

http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1138084541202810.xml&coll=1

Nets notes: Carter -- scoring 81 not all good
Tuesday, January 24, 2006
BY DAVE D'ALESSANDRO
Star-Ledger Staff
Kids, don't try this at home.

That was one of the first thoughts that hit Vince Carter in the aftermath of Kobe Bryant's 81-point party Sunday night -- that while it is an attention-grabber for the NBA at large, it may also influence talented young players to place individual pursuits ahead of team goals.

"The only bad thing about it is that younger kids, whose minds are easily warped, are going to think, 'Ohhh! I am going to go out there and do it instead of (honoring) the team concept first,'" Carter said yesterday. "That is what is missing in the game, guys understanding how to play as a team.

"I think it is great for (the NBA): They want scoring, they want ratings, and you are going to get that. You are definitely going to get them now with the amount of 50-point games, 60-plus games. I just hope that kids and young guys understand that (only) special guys can do that. Yeah, the (other Lakers) were trying to get Kobe the ball, they wanted to see a special night. But they all know their roles.

"Guys understanding their roles is probably the hardest thing to accept in the NBA right now. Everybody wants to prove they are a professional, wants to be a star in this league. You can still become a star in your own right if you just play your role."

[st.cronin]

Vince Carter should have his larynx surgically removed. What a jackass.

[MrBug708]

Last year Vince Carter took 20.0 shots per game. Kobe took 20.1 shots per game. Kobe is shooting the ball over 27 times, but the Lakers are playing better.

Of course, if the Lakers tank, Kobe can become a jackass , fake an injury, and demand out of town

[Fouts]

"Guys understanding their roles is probably the hardest thing to accept in the NBA right now. Everybody wants to prove they are a professional, wants to be a star in this league. You can still become a star in your own right if you just play your role."

Hilarious. What was Vince's role in Toronto?

[Karlifornia]

Hilarious. What was Vince's role in Toronto?


His role was actually Sir Kay. He would bring the entertainment throughout, but at the end, he was nowhere to be found.