Do you remember.....BBCF?

[Toddzilla]

Man, that game was fantastic. I probably played it more than TCY. The playcalling and gameplanning was a blast and I really liked the recruiting engine. The polls were kind of wonky but I used a playoff system so that mitigated those issues. The last I heard long long ago they were working on a big patch - version 1.1? - and I like many players put our dynasties on hold waiting for the patch. Gosh I miss that game. I wonder what happened to it?

[SFL Cat]

Parody thread?

[WSUCougar]

No, sarcasm thread.

[IwasHere]

I think they will be holding off till the start of the college football season. :(

[Young Drachma]

For some reason, none of his games work on my computer. But it's not like I have some ancient machine or anything. But they always have runtime errors and so, oh well. Sucks, because I'd like to play them.

Oh well.

[larrymcg421]

I haven't really complained much because I think Arlie is a good guy doing the best he can, but I am getting a bit irritated.

When the game was first released, I tried the demo and enjoyed it, but I was going to hold off on buying it for a bit. It didn't exactly blow me away yet, and I figured I could wait until there were some improvements. However, while reading the forum Arlie set up for the game, I see him responding to a question about the player editor by stating that the editor would be available when the full version of the game was released.

This convinced me to buy the game. When I bought it, I played around with it for a while trying to figure out how to edit players. I couldn't figure it out. I went back to the board and find out that the editor was actually not included in the final release. Not only that, but we were told that we shouldn't have expected it because it was not listed as one of the official features of the game. I think that's BS. If the developer tells me it's going to be in the finished product, then I expect it to be there.

Arlie has said that 1.1 was nearing completion and going to the testers. That's fine. I'll be happy when it eventually comes out. But I'll still feel ripped off that it wasn't included from the beginning, and it took so long for it to come out.

[Tim Tellean]

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=87758#post87758

[MizzouRah]

I've been patient, but I agree. Now that TCB has consumed my gaming time, I hope I can get back into BBCF before next football season.

[st.cronin]

I was unimpressed with the demo. The layout was way too messy for my taste.

[QuikSand]

There were things about the game that I liked. But I have lost any momentum for playing it, and am back committing my limited idle time at home to other games that seem like a better fit for my own interests. I wasn't convinced that my concerns were a priority for BBCF, and am not that optimistic that even the rumored 1.1 patch will resolve my issues... so it's on the shelf for me, too. Maybe I'll give it another look at some point.

[miked]

I like Arlie but as I said on the OOTP boards, I'm sort of tired of people selling me games, promising things, and then telling me their "real job" or something is getting in the way with delivering. I like the game, but the online portion of it is dead until the HTML part is actually finished.

I mentioned this on the OOTP boards because people were talking about how much slack we should cut David Winter because MF is a "one-man show" and I just think it's getting old, especially when you are charging people $30+ for your game.

[Senator]

and am back committing my limited idle time at home.

Do you change the diapers or do you have the nanny do it?

[QuikSand]

I am a diaper changing champ.

Dynasty thread to follow.

[Eaglesfan27]

I am a diaper changing champ.

Dynasty thread to follow.

No pix plz, k thx.

[Drake]

I mentioned this on the OOTP boards because people were talking about how much slack we should cut David Winter because MF is a "one-man show" and I just think it's getting old, especially when you are charging people $30+ for your game.

Exactly. If you're charging me money, then you get no more or less slack than any other business out there who doesn't deliver. It's *your* job to figure out how much to charge vs. how many people you can afford to hire to put out a product that works as advertised.

[Drake]

dola...

On the other hand, I like the idea of charging people $30 for a novel that's only 75% written with the promise that I'll get them the last few chapters--or make those messy chapters in the middle coherent--two, three or four months in the future.

[Ben E Lou]

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?p=87758#post87758I hadn't heard anything from Arlie in a while. Good to see an update. I'm sure I'll pick it back up to test 1.1.

[MizzouRah]

You do make a good point miked and I thought I've been doing much better at waiting on a game until I was sure it was very stable before buying. Oh well, as baseball is now in my radar, this game just might get shelved for a bit.. even after 1.1.

Actually, I was disappointed with TDCB, didn't buy TPF, and right now BBCF hasn't been all I was hoping it would be.

[KWhit]

I mentioned this on the OOTP boards because people were talking about how much slack we should cut David Winter because MF is a "one-man show" and I just think it's getting old, especially when you are charging people $30+ for your game.
"Maximum Football - It's Minimum Fun!"

[Ben E Lou]

"Maximum Football - It's Minimum Fun!"GOLD!

[Ajaxab]

I really like the recruiting aspect of BBCF, but the gameplanning is an exercise in tedium I just don't have the patience to deal with. Excluding depth chart screens and player personnel formation screens, being anal about FOF's game plan means filling in about 632 boxes total. If I'm counting correctly, BBCF's offensive gameplan screen alone (never mind playing time, depth charts, offensive playbook, offensive strategy, defensive gameplan, defensive playbook and defensive strategy screens) has 960 boxes to fill in just for 'tied game' offensive scenarios alone. Multiply that by other game scenarios and we're looking at filling in nearly 5,000 boxes before we even get to the offensive playbook and strategy screens. Feel free to correct my math as necessary as this is a rough guesstimate.

Combining this number of boxes with a bit of an unwieldy interface and any multiplayer fun evaporates for me. I don't have 1.5-2 hours to come up with game plans and the 'suggest' button won't help my cause a whole lot. The rest of the game is relatively enjoyable, but gameplanning is a torturous exercise. I never thought I'd see the day when I wanted a text sim to be 'simpler', but BBCF's gameplanning needs to be simplified from its excruciating state.

[Bee]

There were things about the game that I liked. But I have lost any momentum for playing it, and am back committing my limited idle time at home to other games that seem like a better fit for my own interests. I wasn't convinced that my concerns were a priority for BBCF, and am not that optimistic that even the rumored 1.1 patch will resolve my issues... so it's on the shelf for me, too. Maybe I'll give it another look at some point.

This is the point I'm at right now as well. At some point, I'll probably return to the game but I don't expect that to be anytime in the near future.

[dubb93]

I really like the recruiting aspect of BBCF, but the gameplanning is an exercise in tedium I just don't have the patience to deal with. Excluding depth chart screens and player personnel formation screens, being anal about FOF's game plan means filling in about 632 boxes total. If I'm counting correctly, BBCF's offensive gameplan screen alone (never mind playing time, depth charts, offensive playbook, offensive strategy, defensive gameplan, defensive playbook and defensive strategy screens) has 960 boxes to fill in just for 'tied game' offensive scenarios alone. Multiply that by other game scenarios and we're looking at filling in nearly 5,000 boxes before we even get to the offensive playbook and strategy screens. Feel free to correct my math as necessary as this is a rough guesstimate.

Combining this number of boxes with a bit of an unwieldy interface and any multiplayer fun evaporates for me. I don't have 1.5-2 hours to come up with game plans and the 'suggest' button won't help my cause a whole lot. The rest of the game is relatively enjoyable, but gameplanning is a torturous exercise. I never thought I'd see the day when I wanted a text sim to be 'simpler', but BBCF's gameplanning needs to be simplified from its excruciating state.

One of the reasons I don't deal with it. I had an idea over at greydog that never got any response, much like my reports on stupid penalty bugs and penaltys still be assigned wrong.

My idea was to fill in 1 page, and then be allowed to set that as default and past it everywhere for the offense. Then, I could easily go in and make minor adjustments for each situation instead of being forced to do all 5 million pages for each yard line from scratch.(like above, feel free to check my math)

[Ben E Lou]

One of the reasons I don't deal with it. I had an idea over at greydog that never got any response, much like my reports on stupid penalty bugs and penaltys still be assigned wrong.

My idea was to fill in 1 page, and then be allowed to set that as default and past it everywhere for the offense. Then, I could easily go in and make minor adjustments for each situation instead of being forced to do all 5 million pages for each yard line from scratch.(like above, feel free to check my math)You can fill in several pages at a time with the "No preference" option. That's what I usually do. I created 5 or 6 different offensive gameplans in about 45 minutes using that option at the right times, and usually let the CPU handle defense.

[Ajaxab]

The help file isn't clear on how the "No preference" option works. Perhaps a stupid question, but how do you get the game to recognize that you want plays called based on "No preference" rather than based on the tied/winning/losing by 3 or less options? Thanks to Skydog, I now understand why the 'no preference' is there, but how do you let the game know you want it to ignore the other options?

I'd appreciate the help as this may salvage the game for me after all. If I only have to worry about "no preference", that's almost 4000 fewer boxes to worry about.

[Ben E Lou]

The help file isn't clear on how the "No preference" option works. Perhaps a stupid question, but how do you get the game to recognize that you want plays called based on "No preference" rather than based on the tied/winning/losing by 3 or less options? Thanks to Skydog, I now understand why the 'no preference' is there, but how do you let the game know you want it to ignore the other options?

I'd appreciate the help as this may salvage the game for me after all. If I only have to worry about "no preference", that's almost 4000 fewer boxes to worry about.I dont' have the game open right now, but it basically works as a Wild Card for type of the situations that ARE picked. In other words, if "No Preference" is picked for all three, then the game plan would apply to every situation there is. If I picked 3rd and 10 and No Preference for Quarter and Behind or Ahead (don't remember the exact titles) then the numbers would apply to all 3rd and 10 situations.

What I did to create my gameplans was selected 1st and 10, then No Preference for the other two to pick my "normal" 1st and 10, then got specific where needed. For the most part, though, I'm sticking with my basic game plans throughout the game, given the options there are. Honestly, I think there need to be more. I think the "behind" options end at like 4 points. I'm going to play very differently down by 5 than I am down by 18.

[Buccaneer]

I had thought the genre would have advanced enough to where one could choose a "macro" gameplan and have the numbers set for you? We are still filling out 600-1000 little boxes???

[Drake]

Because we're text sim dorks. It's either this or play with spreadsheets. :)

[dubb93]

You can fill in several pages at a time with the "No preference" option. That's what I usually do. I created 5 or 6 different offensive gameplans in about 45 minutes using that option at the right times, and usually let the CPU handle defense.

I never realized that. I'll have to check out the no preference option. Thanks Skydog. BTW, since you are on the beta team anyway you can help him fix some the weird penalty bugs such as 10 yard defensive holding and the personal foul bug that has cost me a shot at two games to date. ;)

The personal foul one is weird. Basically I'm on forth down late in the game going for it. The two situations I've had are 4th and 1 and 4th and 5. Both times I got enough for the first down, but was called for a personal foul. Instead of marking the yardage off and giving me the 1st down OR marking the yardage off and still making it 4th down they marked the yardage off after the play and took the ball from me.

For example, on 4th and 1 I got 2 yards. Instead of the 1st down, it played it as a 13 yard loss on 4th down and gave them the ball. Thanks.

[Anthony]

I had thought the genre would have advanced enough to where one could choose a "macro" gameplan and have the numbers set for you? We are still filling out 600-1000 little boxes???

ditto.

[Buccaneer]

It has to be rather in-depth though, to make it feel as if a gameplan mimics what you would have done calling each play. And it has to be situational, which gets back to where we are now. I find it difficult to believe that there couldn't be a series of screens added that's somewhere between detailed siutational tendencies and recommend. I think it would be based on knowing your players (their strengths and weaknesses) and your opponent's tendencies, strengths and weaknesses. From reading BBCF dynasty threads, it does sound like the coaches can recommend a scheme but couldn't that be expanded without having to get into the details, if one chooses?

[thesloppy]

I really enjoyed BBCF for awhile....until it eventually became clear that my recruiting budget had somewhere near zero effect. I pored over my roster and stressed over what positions and regions to put my moneys into, but after multiple years rolled by it dawned on me that it really didn't matter if I put ANY thought into it at all, because the only decent recruits that were going to be interested in my program were always CBs and WRs and getting a RB or QB with a rating over 2-stars was a pipe dream that I should just abandon....no matter though, because the one time I did luck into an 80+ rated QB he was just as awful as the previous (and future) guys in the 40s even though he was throwing to three 70+ receivers. Soon after, it seeped in that all of the recruits had their interest levels set before the season began, and neither my performance nor even subsequent recruiting did much to alter that interest level.

The multi-layered interface, and overwhelming gameplan options, were too much for me to bother with every week, so I left most of that to the computer, but again I got the feeling that it didn't matter, as the AI seemed to ignore my playing-time guidelines and depth-chart on a whim, so why should I believe that the gameplan would be any more effective?

Overall, I enjoyed a lot of the time I spent with BBCF, but every passing hour led to another realization that very little, if any, of my input had an effect on the outcome of any stage of the game. Although the massively convoluted interface gives you the opportunity to sink hours and hours into micro-managing your team throughout the course of the season, the more time I spent with the game only increased the feeling that I was just WATCHING the game play itself, and the interface merely gave me the impression that I was controlling things....and since the interested recruits always seemed identical, the balance of power in my conference NEVER shifted (I had 5 top 25 teams in my conference, every year for ten years), and player ratings seemed to have no correlation to performance on my team, I was basically watching the same season over and over again, just with different names. Yeah, that was the end of that.

[Toddzilla]

Overall, I enjoyed a lot of the time I spent with BBCF, but every passing hour led to another realization that very little, if any, of my input had an effect on the outcome of any stage of the game. Although the massively convoluted interface gives you the opportunity to sink hours and hours into micro-managing your team throughout the course of the season, the more time I spent with the game only increased the feeling that I was just WATCHING the game play itself, and the interface merely gave me the impression that I was controlling things....and since the interested recruits always seemed identical, the balance of power in my conference NEVER shifted (I had 5 top 25 teams in my conference, every year for ten years), and player ratings seemed to have no correlation to performance on my team, I was basically watching the same season over and over again, just with different names. Yeah, that was the end of that.Gee, thanks...way to tear down the 5th wall, sloppy. :rolleyes: I guess I kind of felt the same way, especially after I ran some tests comparing CPU recruiting and human recruiting and found the results to be nearly identical every time with the exception of a player or two.

I understand that there needs to be an element of randomness in these games, otherwise they'd be *too* predictable, but the way randomness is integrated into this game seems to be completley wrong. Point spreads vary wildly when you re-load the game - 7-point favorites become 12-point underdogs. That tells you the game either has no idea how strong a specific team is, or it doesn't care. Your recruiting budget - however meaningless as you describe - seems to be based on some random factor different that how well you meet your expectations. How many times did your budget get cut after getting an A or B? And don't get me started on the polls...having 7 teams from the Big 10 in the top 25 every year, the last 2 teams with .500 records or worse is bad enough.

I think you hit the nail on the head - BBCF is more or less giving us the illusuion that we're controlling a team. You can put 10 hours into gameplanning (or recruiting, or budget, or playcalling, etc.) or let the CPU handle it, either way your team will perform exactly the same 99.9% of the time.

[Coffee Warlord]

You know. The above two posts sums up my feelings about the game perfectly.

Never felt like I had any real influence on my team. Just going through the motions, cross your fingers and pray.

[MizzouRah]

Talk about ruining my gaming pleasure. :)

[Coffee Warlord]

Talk about ruining my gaming pleasure. :)

Go be like me and fire up Crusader Kings. :)

[panerd]

While what thesloppy and Toddzilla describe are not even close to the type of college football sim I would want to purchase would be it sounds like a dead-on simulation of the real NCAA. i.e. The same teams get the top recruits no matter what happens.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

TCY2 will solve all over our problems :)

[astrosfan64]

I really enjoyed BBCF for awhile....until it eventually became clear that my recruiting budget had somewhere near zero effect. I pored over my roster and stressed over what positions and regions to put my moneys into, but after multiple years rolled by it dawned on me that it really didn't matter if I put ANY thought into it at all, because the only decent recruits that were going to be interested in my program were always CBs and WRs and getting a RB or QB with a rating over 2-stars was a pipe dream that I should just abandon....no matter though, because the one time I did luck into an 80+ rated QB he was just as awful as the previous (and future) guys in the 40s even though he was throwing to three 70+ receivers. Soon after, it seeped in that all of the recruits had their interest levels set before the season began, and neither my performance nor even subsequent recruiting did much to alter that interest level.

The multi-layered interface, and overwhelming gameplan options, were too much for me to bother with every week, so I left most of that to the computer, but again I got the feeling that it didn't matter, as the AI seemed to ignore my playing-time guidelines and depth-chart on a whim, so why should I believe that the gameplan would be any more effective?

Overall, I enjoyed a lot of the time I spent with BBCF, but every passing hour led to another realization that very little, if any, of my input had an effect on the outcome of any stage of the game. Although the massively convoluted interface gives you the opportunity to sink hours and hours into micro-managing your team throughout the course of the season, the more time I spent with the game only increased the feeling that I was just WATCHING the game play itself, and the interface merely gave me the impression that I was controlling things....and since the interested recruits always seemed identical, the balance of power in my conference NEVER shifted (I had 5 top 25 teams in my conference, every year for ten years), and player ratings seemed to have no correlation to performance on my team, I was basically watching the same season over and over again, just with different names. Yeah, that was the end of that.

I have to completely disagree with the above post. I've taken a low prestige program and built a power house. It took me close to 20 seasons to move Rutgers up the ranks but I did it. I remember fondly my first four star recruit at OLB. He was a local NJ guy and I had just come off a winning season. I pitched him location first week and sunk the max into him every week. He signed and I picked up some decent three stars that year. My program improved every year and I eventually scored some decent upsets.

I managed to score a three star mobile QB, and changed my offense around so he would run more. I had a fantastic season with him his Junior year and went like 10 and 2. Won a bowl game.

Yes, there are problems with the game but what is listed above is not it. At least to me.

[Solecismic]

TCY2 will solve all over our problems :)

It won't. I promise you that. There is no Direct-X plug-in for your coffee maker.

Seriously, though, a college sim is in many ways tougher than a pro sim because you're dealing with a world that is not equal for every school, and you're dealing with so many more factors.

As a game designer, I found myself making so many more choices than I made with the pro game. I'm sure Arlie had a similar experience.

For example, I chose to make academics a lot more important than they are in real life. That opened up the gaming experience from my perspective, though it annoyed people who cared more about the realism in that arena (hence the infamous "I'm not trying to model the NCAA exactly" comment which will haunt me until about 25 years after my death).

Game-planning is becoming more of a difficult area for the text sim. It's clear from feedback I receive that having more options is necessary. Yet a significant percentage would be happy with less. It's an area that could split the genre, but in a manner that would be otherwise unnecessary. So you have to provide both. How to do so in an intelligent manner (the "no preference" screen is a nice solution) that makes both camps happy is perhaps my biggest concern about this year's release.

[cartman]

How to do so in an intelligent manner (the "no preference" screen is a nice solution) that makes both camps happy is perhaps my biggest concern about this year's release.

Umm....

I think I just had a "special" moment!

[Coffee Warlord]

It won't. I promise you that. There is no Direct-X plug-in for your coffee maker.

I smell partnership, Jim. :)

[JeeberD]

Umm....

I think I just had a "special" moment!

And I think this thread is gonna explode once folks catch on...

[Eaglesfan27]

And I think this thread is gonna explode once folks catch on...
Probably. However, I don't see this as real news given Jim's other recent posts.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

It won't. I promise you that. There is no Direct-X plug-in for your coffee maker.

How to do so in an intelligent manner (the "no preference" screen is a nice solution) that makes both camps happy is perhaps my biggest concern about this year's release.

I can't play TCY2 without the famous Coffee Maker Mod, dang it.. :p A release this year..???? YEA-YA...

[gottimd]

While the last two years have been more family-focused, with no new products seeing release, 2006 will mark several changes for the company. We will release a fully updated version of one of our football games this year, though it will be a few months before a final decision is made as to which one. We will also move our office (and home) to Michigan to be closer to family. That's become more important as our two-year-old son, Gregory, continues to develop in his own manner. We will break ground on our new home in January. Why is this big news, its on the website that something will come up this year......

[RedKingGold]

And I think this thread is gonna explode once folks catch on...

I don't think any earth-shattering news was dropped in Jim's latest post. He didn't give any indication whatsoever on what he is currently working on. As he has said, he is right now looking at both options (as well as others we don't even know about) and will not make a decision for a few more months.

[Solecismic]

Now, if only we could break ground on our new home. I hope it's by the end of this week.

[cartman]

There won't be a "hot coffee" mod for TCY2? Dang, that is going to make recruiting as Colorado that much harder...

:D

[JeeberD]

I was thinking that it was a confirmation of TCY2 coming out this year instead of a new FOF, but I guess the gameplanning model he mentioned could be used on either game...

[gottimd]

He is going to wait til jeeber exceeds the 30K post mark to release a new version......

[RedKingGold]

Now, if only we could break ground on our new home. I hope it's by the end of this week.

So....Jim's new game is going to be..


Front Office Breaking Ground on New House in Michigan While Hundreds of Anonymous People Waiting in Popular Gaming Forum Anticipate Announcements from their Text Sim Christ (not named David Winters) and Dodgeing the Bannings from the Barking Moderator during the Off-Season of Football!

I am a genius

[Bee]

He is going to wait til jeeber exceeds the 30K post mark to release a new version......

So 2 weeks...sweet!

[gottimd]

So....Jim's new game is going to be..


Front Office Breaking Ground on New House in Michigan While Hundreds of Anonymous People Waiting in Popular Gaming Forum Anticipate Announcements from their Text Sim Christ (not named David Winters) and Dodgeing the Bannings from the Barking Moderator during the Off-Season of Football!

I am a geniusFOBGONHIMWHOAPWIPGFAAFTTSCADTBFTBMDTOOF.....

Sounds catchy.

[IwasHere]

Is it too late for me to try and get a refund for this Beta-Game?

[Ben E Lou]

but I guess the gameplanning model he mentioned could be used on either game...I read the section that some are getting jazzed up about as "TCY2 or FOF6, I'm trying to strike a balance in the gameplanning section."

Given the similarities between the games since FOF4, I would assume that the gameplanning subroutines are similar enough that he could even work on a new, improved gameplanning interface without having decided which game it will be used in first.

[Anthony]

reluctantly i've found myself in a position i didn't want to be in - being guaranteed to purchase jim's next game (whatever it may be). certain factors have played a role in me deciding to yet again jump on the Solecismic bandwagon:

1. at this point i still have yet to purchase BBCF.
2. i have liked every Solecismic release i've ever bought, so there's a track record
3. Solecismic has begun implementing features which i deem to be high on my list: MP; dabbling with player personalities (affinities). nothing groundbreaking, but enough to show the company has been listening to what the customer wants.
4. i only buy one game in any one sport. with my having not purchased BBCF (football) yet, and feeling that the next Solecismic product will most likely be a football game of some sort i might as well hold off and wait.

i just don't like rewarding being kept in the closet regarding what products will be released, but hey, can't have it all. i do respect arlie for seemingly make a game that is rather editable (player faces, conference/tourney names, etc), i hope that level of customability, while not on the same level as Maximum Football, that bastion of perfection, will be present in Solecismic's future releases (if it isn't already scheduled to be in the upcoming product).

[st.cronin]

reluctantly i've found myself in a position i didn't want to be in - being guaranteed to purchase jim's next game (whatever it may be). certain factors have played a role in me deciding to yet again jump on the Solecismic bandwagon:

1. at this point i still have yet to purchase BBCF.
2. i have liked every Solecismic release i've ever bought, so there's a track record
3. Solecismic has begun implementing features which i deem to be high on my list: MP; dabbling with player personalities (affinities). nothing groundbreaking, but enough to show the company has been listening to what the customer wants.
4. i only buy one game in any one sport. with my having not purchased BBCF (football) yet, and feeling that the next Solecismic product will most likely be a football game of some sort i might as well hold off and wait.

i just don't like rewarding being kept in the closet regarding what products will be released, but hey, can't have it all. i do respect arlie for seemingly make a game that is rather editable (player faces, conference/tourney names, etc), i hope that level of customability, while not on the same level as Maximum Football, that bastion of perfection, will be present in Solecismic's future releases (if it isn't already scheduled to be in the upcoming product).


fanboy

[Tim Tellean]

so when is tcy2 or fof 7 to be released?

[panerd]

If Jim realeases multi-player TCY we can just make Cartman's BBCF multi-player league a TCY2 league since it looks like the HTML patch is still a still a few years away. :)

[Eaglesfan27]

so when is tcy2 or fof 7 to be released?

From the recent posts and Solecismic's website, it seems like sometime in 2006.

[MizzouRah]

Well, I've offically abandoned this game for now. I know 1.1 is in beta, but now baseball is almost here and well, I'm mostly a seasonal player. Bring on MLB The Show for my ps2 and I'm intrigued on what OOTP will bring this year with SI.

[Joe]

anyone want my copy?

[theclassic]

Arlie was fast to respond to comments and questions about BBCF before it's release. But now he dosn't seem to do so. I have asked or suggested expanding the history section a few times, and he has yet to respond to me. Before the game was released he answered my questions, but now it's like pulling teeth to get him to answer your questions. Unless your skydog or someone else of importance and name in the text sim community, you can't get him to answer you.

[Easy Mac]

I'll go ahead and idly speculate that some of the things that are being added have begun to brake the game, and it's far more difficult to add these things in later. And I'm still not sure why there's such importance placed on a player editor. That's the least of my care. The in game engine is still not very good. Random penaties and weird issues cropped up all the time for me, some I've reported, and it seems to be the attitude that these are acceptable as long as we have html and real players.

[Ben E Lou]

And I'm still not sure why there's such importance placed on a player editor.Because there are a lot of amazingly shallow gamers out there who are demanding it, I'm fairly certain. It is pretty frustrating that so much time and energy is having to go into a feature that I will never use, and is particular superfluous in a college game, where the "real" players that most of these casual observers know will be gone in a couple of seasons, and the entire universe will turn over in five.

As far as the other stuff, I know that there's an extensive fix list for this update. That being said, I'd agree that communication could be better. I guess I shouldn't have used my OTDJ powers to turn Arlie into a f$*(#%* elitist.

[Ben E Lou]

Well, I've offically abandoned this game for now. I know 1.1 is in beta, but now baseball is almost here and well, I'm mostly a seasonal player. Bring on MLB The Show for my ps2 and I'm intrigued on what OOTP will bring this year with SI.Football is still king on my machines. With BBCF on the backburner, I've jumped back into FOF2K4 for the past three or four weeks. If BBCF can come up to snuff, I'm sure to pick it back up. It is *ALWAYS* college football season. I've still got dozens of video clips of Juniors that I've yet to watch.

[MizzouRah]

I'll go ahead and idly speculate that some of the things that are being added have begun to brake the game, and it's far more difficult to add these things in later. And I'm still not sure why there's such importance placed on a player editor. That's the least of my care. The in game engine is still not very good. Random penaties and weird issues cropped up all the time for me, some I've reported, and it seems to be the attitude that these are acceptable as long as we have html and real players.
I agree here. I'm in that boat who wonders why a player editor means squat in a college game... I know people love them (see NCAA football), but I would like the game fixed first.

I can see Arlie's side though. He promised it and for a bit it was on the back burner.

[sovereignstar]

Best post ever..

"Sounds good---but please don't hold up the editor to add more changes--please !"

[Ben E Lou]

He promised it...and I truly hope that this doesn't go down as his biggest mistake, but if this game doesn't reach its full potential soon, that promise will most assuredly be the primary reason.

[Ben E Lou]

Best post ever..

"Sounds good---but please don't hold up the editor to add more changes--please !"Yup. That would be Exhibit "A" of...Because there are a lot of amazingly shallow gamers out there who are demanding it
In case anyone thinks sov is exaggerating: http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88680&postcount=38

[IwasHere]

Any chance we will have a playable game by the end of this month?

[rexallllsc]

I dunno. I mean, I like detail, but I think there's a tad TOO MUCH detail or too much emphasis on certain things in BBCF and TCB. Like, I never spend too much time doing one thing in FM - it takes a long time to play a season, but I never get frustrated.

I seem to get frustrated with certain parts of BBCF and TCB (tho I'm a bit more into TCB).

[Toddzilla]

Hey, is there a way to edit a team's prestige mid-dyansty? I cannot find the file that has the actual up-to-date team information. My league is abbreviated NCAA, and I've checked all the following files:

c:\Program Files\GDS\BBCF\stats.dat
c:\Program Files\GDS\BBCF\pstats.dat
c:\Program Files\GDS\BBCF\saves\NCAA\stats.dat

and none have the current information. There is no pstats.dat in the .\saves\NCAA directory either. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[dubb93]

I dunno. I mean, I like detail, but I think there's a tad TOO MUCH detail or too much emphasis on certain things in BBCF and TCB. Like, I never spend too much time doing one thing in FM - it takes a long time to play a season, but I never get frustrated.

I seem to get frustrated with certain parts of BBCF and TCB (tho I'm a bit more into TCB).

I agree with BBCF, at this point it feels like a waste of money. I'm sure it will be patched by the end of the year and become playable, but TCB has been worth every penny. Great, Great game. So far my initial impression after a few seasons is greater than I've had for any other sim ever.

[Easy Mac]

It seems to have gotten amazing ratings at GCM (http://www.gamechronicles.com/reviews/pc/bbcf/bbcf.htm). 9.1/10, near perfect.

[astrosfan64]

I think you guys are way to critical of BBCF. It is a good game that needs tweaking. It is playable, not sure how you guys can make that statement?

I have no idea why you need a player editor for college football.... Anyway, this next patch is only going to make the game better. Is there things I want fixed in BBCF? Of course there is, but I don't think it was a waste of money.

[Easy Mac]

I don't think I've been over critical. For me, it isn't currently a good game. It looks nice, and I can see why someone may enjoy it, but personally I've found it tedious to try and soldier through a season. Then when I see penalties not enforced correctly, very bad clock management, and lots of other mistakes in the engine, it makes it a poor game for me. I think you're definitely entitled to love the game, but I also feel justified in feeling I haven't gotten my moneys worth in terms of game play, and that the general direction the game is taking is one in which I'm not interested.

[astrosfan64]

I don't think I've been over critical. For me, it isn't currently a good game. It looks nice, and I can see why someone may enjoy it, but personally I've found it tedious to try and soldier through a season. Then when I see penalties not enforced correctly, very bad clock management, and lots of other mistakes in the engine, it makes it a poor game for me. I think you're definitely entitled to love the game, but I also feel justified in feeling I haven't gotten my moneys worth in terms of game play, and that the general direction the game is taking is one in which I'm not interested.

Fair enough.

[cody8200]

The patch is in beta...including the editor which works just fine :) So things are happening and I know that as soon as Arlie is sure the patch is ready to go, he will release it.

[Ben E Lou]

Just noticed this...

<table class="tborder" id="post91703" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td class="thead"> Today, 09:19 AM <!-- / status icon and date -->
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="padding: 0px;"> <!-- user info --> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="6" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td nowrap="nowrap"> Arlie Rahn (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/member.php?u=23) http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif <script type="text/javascript"> vbmenu_register("postmenu_91703", true); </script>
GDS Developer
</td> <td width="100%"> </td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top"> Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 970


</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- / user info --> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> <!-- message, attachments, sig --> <!-- icon and title --> http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
<hr style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> As to the 1.1 update, the BETA team got another copy a few days ago and I will be adding one tonight with some reports and new items. So, the main items have been tested and the patch is nearing completion. I will keep you guys posted here as we get closer. For now, here are the main additions in the patch:

1. Added the Player editor
2. Added an ability to import players from another save game to start a new league with.
3. Added a new set of HTML reports.
4. Fixed some online issues including more checks for imports and an adjustment for non-conference schedule bidding.
5. Changed the poll system to be more realistic.
6. adjusted the sim engine to appear less random in some matchups. This involved a few engine tweaks and should help avoid some of the "awful losses" top teams seemed to have from time to time.
7. Adjusted engine to give more of a penalty to teams that run a play to the direction of a blitz.
8. Completely redid the spread calculation to be more inline with team strengths, health of each time, location and performance level.
9. Adjusted the final grades calculation to be more accurate at the end of each season.
10. Adjusted recruit distributions (Midwest and west too good) by region.
11. Improved the ranking system for overall recruits. There still may be some gaps after 1500 for some positions as he sheer number of recruits at each position make it tough to have a completely uniform setup for 2500 players.
12.Tone down font white-level on a few screens
13. Changed save backup to use a folder called "backup" (with a complete backup of each save file) and not the .old files
14. Ensure "cheaper" coordinators stay in the league longer for smaller schools.
15. Added in a new option to allow people to change the yearly increase/decrease in prestige to a higher or lower level.
16. Fixed in-game bugs involving blocked FGs, safeties, missing plays and some display issues.
17. Fixed an RTE 457 issue.

I will continue to monitor tech support for more bugs. I would also like one or two people that like to play BBCF in play-by-play mode to email me ([email protected]) if they are interested in being added to the final testing team.

I will keep everyone posted as we continue to close on the release of 1.1.
<!-- / message --> <!-- controls --> http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=91703) http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/images/buttons/quickreply.gif (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=91703)
</td></tr></tbody> </table>

[QuikSand]

This patch is starting to take on Maximum dimensions.

[flounder]

I blame the player editor. It's the only thing that had to be built from scratch; everything else was just a tweak. It's sad because I'll bet only 5% of the playerbase ever seriously uses it. I know I won't (except maybe to tweak a player or two.)

[astrosfan64]

This patch is starting to take on Maximum dimensions.

You are so funny. What wit!

[Grammaticus]

I enjoy this game. I also generally agree with most of the short comings mentioned. In the end, the two things that are the most difficult is achieving a realistic game plan (calling realistic plays at the right time) and some of the lopsided upsets. Upsets are good and realistic, but are just a little too frequent.

I still play the game and am happy that I picked it up. I'm also looking forward to the 1.1 patch, but do not expect it to be the silver bullet that fixes all issues.

[MizzouRah]

This patch is starting to take on Maximum dimensions.
Sure is, heck I don't even check anymore. The thread over there that talks about it is quite funny as well.

A f'ing player editor... for what? I know he promised it, but sheesh...

[jbmagic]

A lot of things was not fix in TPF and i have no confident things will get fix for BBCF especially the play by play logs.

The same bugs for play by play bugs in TPF is now popping up again in BBCF.

I will wait and see what people say when patch 1.1 comes out before i think of purchasing this game.

[Toddzilla]

This patch is starting to take on Maximum dimensions.I was going to say something like this a week ago or so, but honestly, where does a n00b like me get off making a comparison like that?

Thanks, Quik, for putting some proverbial weight behind the analogy.

Also, I'd like to point out that I think the GD Forums suck ass. I've posted the same question 3 times (can you edit prestige mid-dynasty?) and have yet to get an answer. Argh.

[Toddzilla]

A month later (almost) and the chances I ever load up BBCF again approach zero.

[DaddyTorgo]

that's harsh. me i know i'll play it again, but it just...irks me that the 1.1 patch is taking so long to come out, cuz it means the life-cycle for this game is just that much shorter (unless we're not going to get BBCF 2 next year, in which case i'm fine with it).

the game has amazing potential...i just want it to get to the point where the pros of playing it outweigh the cons (PBP bugs and such).

[Bee]

A month later (almost) and the chances I ever load up BBCF again approach zero.

I have to agree. This game pretty much has lost it's window of opportunity for me. With some of the other games coming out in the next couple weeks that I've been waiting for I don't see myself playing this game again.

[ice4277]

I have to agree. This game pretty much has lost it's window of opportunity for me. With some of the other games coming out in the next couple weeks that I've been waiting for I don't see myself playing this game again.
Ditto. I never got too into it to begin with, and am now regretting having made the purchase. More of a chore playing it than anything else.

[QuikSand]

A month later (almost) and the chances I ever load up BBCF again approach zero.

You and I are in synch again. Oh, well.

[Coffee Warlord]

Ditto. I never got too into it to begin with, and am now regretting having made the purchase. More of a chore playing it than anything else.

Damn shame, too. Eh, I shoulda known.

[Bonegavel]

I was hoping to be knee-deep in the season that cartman is running and not knee-deep in...

[astrosfan64]

You guys are pretty damn negative. But you are negative about pretty much everything around here, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

[Raiders Army]

You guys are pretty damn negative. But you are negative about pretty much everything around here, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise.Hey pot...

[Coffee Warlord]

You guys are pretty damn negative. But you are negative about pretty much everything around here, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

...

I'll save myself the trouble. Insert flame here.

[Raiders Army]

Oh yeah, I agree this is a wonderful college try, but the game just isn't interesting.

[astrosfan64]

Oh yeah, I agree this is a wonderful college try, but the game just isn't interesting.

LOL that is pretty clever.

[miked]

I haven't fired it up either in a bit. Combination of busy and irritated at the poll stupidity. I'm sure we'll get the standard "my other job has kept me busy" excuse, but it sounds as if it's in the final stages of testing.

[Anthony]

this is Arlie's full-time gig, for the record (unless i'm mistaken) mike.

[MizzouRah]

I'm sure I'll try to get back into it sometime later when football starts back up, but I'm irked to say the least and will NEVER purchase an Arlie game again without waiting it out to see what issues arrive.

[MikeVick7]

You guys are pretty damn negative. But you are negative about pretty much everything around here, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise.
Well, what exactly do you want them to say? Let's see some examples of positive thoughts on this subject.

[Anthony]

to be fair, i haven't sensed any negativity in this thread (see the MF thread for negativity). people are allowed to share their opinions. given that Arlie has good-guy status around here i'd say people have been holding back, if anything.

[DaddyTorgo]

yes the 1.1 patch is taking quite a long time. but i'd be curious to hear from Arlie just what % of that time is being spent on the goddamm player editor that I could really give a rat's ass about and what % of it is being spent on the other issues. because if it's the player editor holding it back then I would be LESS inclined to throw Arlie under the bus for it versus if it's something that he maybe should have been more on top of (say the PBP or something).

regardless, i wouldn't think we'd be seeing BBCF 2 coming out next year anyways, so this game still has a lot of playability for me in the future, especially because it's a college game and thus there are no roster-issues.

whether i can find the time to fire it back up with a lot of other games coming out that i'm playing i guess depends on the quality of the 1.1 patch and how "playable" it makes the game...how much I get immersed in a career the first time that i fire it up post-patch.

[astrosfan64]

Well, what exactly do you want them to say? Let's see some examples of positive thoughts on this subject.

Hmm, the game has received three or four reviews in the 90's. I've been playing it for months and I still enjoy it. Yes, it has some bugs but no more or less then most other games released in this genre. I think you guys are to critical over every game in this genre not just bowl bound. He is working on a patch, I'm not sure what else you want.

Does Todd need to keep updating us on how disappointed he is and how annoyed? I think one post might be enough don't you think? Maybe even two or three, but lets keep bumping up every few days. Great Idea.

[QuikSand]

yes the 1.1 patch is taking quite a long time. but i'd be curious to hear from Arlie just what % of that time is being spent on the goddamm player editor that I could really give a rat's ass about and what % of it is being spent on the other issues. because if it's the player editor holding it back then I would be LESS inclined to throw Arlie under the bus for it versus if it's something that he maybe should have been more on top of (say the PBP or something).

Is there any reason why GDS shouldn't be held accountable for delaying important game play fixes (both those that patch 1.04 knowingly did not fix, and those that it inadequately "fixed") until this player editor is done? Any reason why the game couldn't be fixed and made genuinely playable before the editor is added? Why no patch 1.05 or 1.06, if need be?

[DaddyTorgo]

Hmm, the game has received three or four reviews in the 90's. I've been playing it for months and I still enjoy it. Yes, it has some bugs but no more or less then most other games released in this genre. I think you guys are to critical over every game in this genre not just bowl bound. He is working on a patch, I'm not sure what else you want.

Does Todd need to keep updating us on how disappointed he is and how annoyed? I think one post might be enough don't you think? Maybe even two or three, but lets keep bumping up every few days. Great Idea.
i do agree with astrosfan. have i gotten my money's worth out of the game yet: decidedly no.

do i feel confident that i will: decidedly yes.

it's just taking more time than i WISH it would take, but there is plenty else to keep me occupied, and like i said, with the fairly clear expectation we won't be seeing BBCF 2 this coming year, the life-cycle of this product is such that i should easily get my money's worth

[astrosfan64]

yes the 1.1 patch is taking quite a long time. but i'd be curious to hear from Arlie just what % of that time is being spent on the goddamm player editor that I could really give a rat's ass about and what % of it is being spent on the other issues. because if it's the player editor holding it back then I would be LESS inclined to throw Arlie under the bus for it versus if it's something that he maybe should have been more on top of (say the PBP or something).

regardless, i wouldn't think we'd be seeing BBCF 2 coming out next year anyways, so this game still has a lot of playability for me in the future, especially because it's a college game and thus there are no roster-issues.

whether i can find the time to fire it back up with a lot of other games coming out that i'm playing i guess depends on the quality of the 1.1 patch and how "playable" it makes the game...how much I get immersed in a career the first time that i fire it up post-patch.

One feature, I'm pretty excited about is a prestige slider. This will control how much prestige you gain or lose from season to season. For example, as a small team you can gain prestige faster so recruiting will come easier faster instead of the 20 plus year marathons before you make any real headway.

As a person who enjoys playing with the smaller schools that is a real bonus to me. One thing to note about the play by play is the style that is used. He uses descriptive phrases to try and describe the action on the field. This a difficult method to use, but does increase enjoyment for me. But, it does run the increased risk of phrases not matching up to the action on the field, depending on the mapping involved.

[albionmoonlight]

Count me as one who was/is ready to buy this game when it is patched. Even for Solecismic games, I have a "wait until the first patch or two" mentality about it. One of the things that is too bad, however, is that the length of time that it has taken for a patch has killed a lot of the positive momentum for me.

It has gone from a happy, "This is a cool game and everyone on FOFC seems to like it, so I can't wait to get it" to a somewhat grudging, "I support this genre and want to encourage it, so I will probably buy BBCF now that it is fixed."

And that's too bad from my selfish and narrow perspective.

[DaddyTorgo]

Is there any reason why GDS shouldn't be held accountable for delaying important game play fixes (both those that patch 1.04 knowingly did not fix, and those that it inadequately "fixed") until this player editor is done? Any reason why the game couldn't be fixed and made genuinely playable before the editor is added? Why no patch 1.05 or 1.06, if need be?oh i agree QuikSand. I agree. and really, who are these idiots calling for a player editor? they just want one so they can "break" the game and take the challenge out of recruiting and building their team up. f-them.

[DaddyTorgo]

Count me as one who was/is ready to buy this game when it is patched. Even for Solecismic games, I have a "wait until the first patch or two" mentality about it. One of the things that is too bad, however, is that the length of time that it has taken for a patch has killed a lot of the positive momentum for me.

It has gone from a happy, "This is a cool game and everyone on FOFC seems to like it, so I can't wait to get it" to a somewhat grudging, "I support this genre and want to encourage it, so I will probably buy BBCF now that it is fixed."

And that's too bad from my selfish and narrow perspective.
oh it is a cool game. and you will definately enjoy it more than just in a "i support this genre" type of way.

[astrosfan64]

Is there any reason why GDS shouldn't be held accountable for delaying important game play fixes (both those that patch 1.04 knowingly did not fix, and those that it inadequately "fixed") until this player editor is done? Any reason why the game couldn't be fixed and made genuinely playable before the editor is added? Why no patch 1.05 or 1.06, if need be?

I agree with you 100%. I would rather see smaller patches released over time, then one giant patch. I used to make this same argument with the EA community guy for Battle for Middle Earth.

I think one reason is testing. When using free testers it is hard to get them to constantly start over new careers to test new builds every other week.

The other option is he puts out one big patch and they hammer on that over a few weeks.

Smaller patches require testers to test all the time for months at a time, larger patch means they have to test for two weeks and then they are done.

Public beta for patches are cool and I support them, but with all the negative shit this board drops on games, I can see how a developer would be gun shy about putting out a public beta.

[Ben E Lou]

Why no patch 1.05 or 1.06, if need be?My best guess: because Arlie caved in to the "This-is-just-like-H2H-in-OOTP" crowd and determined that four patches without a promised feature (and OH, how I wish he hadn't promised this one...) was too many to have not delivered said promised feature.

[Ben E Lou]

this is Arlie's full-time gig, for the record (unless i'm mistaken) mike.Just for clarification, you are mistaken.

[astrosfan64]

My best guess: because Arlie caved in to the "This-is-just-like-H2H-in-OOTP" crowd and determined that four patches without a promised feature (and OH, how I wish he hadn't promised this one...) was too many to have not delivered said promised feature.

I agree 100% with you on this. I think that was exactly the problem.

[Crapshoot]

Just for clarification, you are mistaken.

Really ? Interesting - I know that Farah has her accounting gig, but I thought Arlie did this full time.

[Raiders Army]

Really ? Interesting - I know that Farah has her accounting gig, but I thought Arlie did this full time.
Me too.

[Ben E Lou]

Really ? Interesting - I know that Farah has her accounting gig, but I thought Arlie did this full time.No. He has a full-time job. That being said, full-time job or not, once you sell a game for full-time money, I don't think it is THAT unreasonable for people to expect full-time-quality support.

[astrosfan64]

In arlies defense here SI Games which is a full time company with a team of people, usually take months between patches and release their final patch four months or more after the release.

[rexallllsc]

One feature, I'm pretty excited about is a prestige slider.

This isn't really a response to your post, but sliders in General.

I hate them.

I hate having to fine tune a game with sliders because what it says to me is that the game is flawed inherently.

FM is a perfect example of this. There are no sliders. No "easy" or "hard" setting. I shouldn't have to tell the game to be more realistic. I shouldn't have to go to Operation Sports or FOFC to find sliders for a computer game.

Just my thoughts.

[Antmeister]

Really ? Interesting - I know that Farah has her accounting gig, but I thought Arlie did this full time.

Ummm....I could have sworn that Farrah said she is not working anymore. I will have to find the thread, but I believe that is the case.

[WSUCougar]

Bottom line is that many people, myself included, aren't playing it, and any of the initial enthusiasm for the game has worn out. That's not a good sign.

[DaddyTorgo]

AFAIK Farrah is doing full-time mom-hood as her current job. that's what i remember reading.

[BuffaloHuskey]

IIRC, she started her own accounting firm gig so she can work at her own pace.

[Galaril]

This isn't really a response to your post, but sliders in General.

I hate them.

I hate having to fine tune a game with sliders because what it says to me is that the game is flawed inherently.

FM is a perfect example of this. There are no sliders. No "easy" or "hard" setting. I shouldn't have to tell the game to be more realistic. I shouldn't have to go to Operation Sports or FOFC to find sliders for a computer game.

Just my thoughts.


I agree on the sliders.

[Crapshoot]

No. He has a full-time job. That being said, full-time job or not, once you sell a game for full-time money, I don't think it is THAT unreasonable for people to expect full-time-quality support.

No, the point's perfectly valid - I concede. Just a matter of information.

[Groundhog]

This isn't really a response to your post, but sliders in General.

I hate them.

I hate having to fine tune a game with sliders because what it says to me is that the game is flawed inherently.

FM is a perfect example of this. There are no sliders. No "easy" or "hard" setting. I shouldn't have to tell the game to be more realistic. I shouldn't have to go to Operation Sports or FOFC to find sliders for a computer game.

Just my thoughts.

I disagree. People play games for different reasons. I crave realism, whilst others probably love getting the ball in to Shaq in NBA Live and dunking it every possession.

Sliders give you the ability to fine-tune the game to your own tastes.

[WSUCougar]

I could usually hit the slider. It was the high inside fastball that was my K zone.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm not a big fan of sliders, because they're often used by developers to simply be lazy and not have to fine-tune things to reality. However, if things are working they way they are intended to work by the developer (injuries and prestige in BBCF come to mind as two things that do work pretty much exactly how Arlie wants them to now), but a decent number of people still don't like the game that way, then they're a reasonable solution to that problem.

[jbmagic]

I'm sure I'll try to get back into it sometime later when football starts back up, but I'm irked to say the least and will NEVER purchase an Arlie game again without waiting it out to see what issues arrive.


I am so glad i didn't pull the trigger and buy it.

After TPF experience, i will also never buy an Arlie game again too. His last patch for TPB 1.43 still has bugs and similar kind of bugs are in BBCF too like the play by play logs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I am so glad i didn't pull the trigger and buy it.


Idle curiosity I suppose, but WTH, I'll ask anyway: what would you say are your 2 or 3 favorite games ever? Not best potential, not best this or that, just plain old simple "2 or 3 games you would say you've enjoyed the most". I'll even narrow it down to, say, the last 10 years or so.

FTR, I'm not looking to beat you up on your answers or anything, I'm just kind of curious.

[st.cronin]

I could usually hit the slider. It was the high inside fastball that was my K zone.

There was a guy in our league when I was in high school who threw a slider that made my knees buckle, every time he threw it. So, of course, it was the only pitch he ever threw to me. I don't think I ever even got a foul ball off him.

[jbmagic]

Idle curiosity I suppose, but WTH, I'll ask anyway: what would you say are your 2 or 3 favorite games ever? Not best potential, not best this or that, just plain old simple "2 or 3 games you would say you've enjoyed the most". I'll even narrow it down to, say, the last 10 years or so.

FTR, I'm not looking to beat you up on your answers or anything, I'm just kind of curious.

My favorite Sports sim games that i enjoy playing the most so far is FOF, Total Pro Basketball and OOTP 6.5

For RTS i enjoy Rise of Nations, Medieval Total War and Generals at the moment.

[Toddzilla]

I hate having to fine tune a game with sliders because what it says to me is that the game is flawed inherently.I can buy into the premise that sliders are a cheap way to avoid having to hit the target right on the bullseye - that sliders can make up for some flaws - but by and large how in the world can you argue against having them? They allow you to create any kind of custom scenario you'd like within the parameters of the sliders. (I'm trying very very hard here to avoid words like "maximum" and "customization", so bear with me.) In that respect, how is a "slider" different than FOF's ability to adjust the salary cap range or injury frequency? Or OOTP's options for player development? It's not a matter of inherent flaws, it's a matter of allowing the user to define the world in which they want to simulate.

[Toddzilla]

Dola

Given the premise of this discussion, I'd like it if BBCF had all kinds of damn sliders, from controling prestige to stuff like budget changes, recruit quality, conference prestige, injuries, academic influence, etc.

[Toddzilla]

Dola Dola - and to the dude who asked why i bump this thread once in a while? Read the posts between yours and this one.

Pwned. ;)

[jbmagic]

Sliders are ok if the AI can also adjust to them well too.

[Ben E Lou]

In that respect, how is a "slider" different than FOF's ability to adjust the salary cap range or injury frequency? Or OOTP's options for player development? It's not a matter of inherent flaws, it's a matter of allowing the user to define the world in which they want to simulate.IT goes back to my comment about whether or not the game works properly at the default settings. FOF's salary cap range works fine as-is. The default injury frequency, while not NFL-accurate, probably hits where most people want to play. OOTP6.5's player development, on the other hand, is somewhat flawed, and even *with* the ability to make changes, is still off.

[Toddzilla]

IT goes back to my comment about whether or not the game works properly at the default settings. FOF's salary cap range works fine as-is. The default injury frequency, while not NFL-accurate, probably hits where most people want to play. OOTP6.5's player development, on the other hand, is somewhat flawed, and even *with* the ability to make changes, is still off.Given how much time and effort you put into developing the career development adjustments for the last version, has Markus enlisted your input as to how player devleopment is going to work in OOTP7?

[MizzouRah]

Bottom line, why does Gary do so much better in supporting his products than Arlie does?

[Coffee Warlord]

Bottom line, why does Gary do so much better in supporting his products than Arlie does?

I really don't mind the moderately longish wait for the patch. Hell, as was mentioned before, take my favorite sports sim of all time, FM. Takes ages for patches from that to come out, and it's not a big deal to me. Is that because the existing product is plenty good enough? Could very well be. That said though, I think you're (and a couple others) being a wee bit unreasonable here .

Arlie's supporting his game just fine, if you ask me. No problems with him or his support of his product whatsoever. I simply don't like the feel of the game, and I honestly doubt any patch is going to change that. As has been said before, I just never felt like I had much influence in my team. Felt like a lot of work, and not a lot of actual result.

...so yeah. Maybe I'm just laid back about the situation 'cause I'm not real interested. But still, it's been what...a couple months at most since the last patch? If it goes to six months, then there's a problem. 2 months for a big patch is a pittance, though.

[Grammaticus]

Idle curiosity I suppose, but WTH, I'll ask anyway: what would you say are your 2 or 3 favorite games ever? Not best potential, not best this or that, just plain old simple "2 or 3 games you would say you've enjoyed the most". I'll even narrow it down to, say, the last 10 years or so.

FTR, I'm not looking to beat you up on your answers or anything, I'm just kind of curious.
Rome Total War and Front Page Sports Football.

[Passacaglia]

I really don't mind the moderately longish wait for the patch. Hell, as was mentioned before, take my favorite sports sim of all time, FM. Takes ages for patches from that to come out, and it's not a big deal to me. Is that because the existing product is plenty good enough? Could very well be. That said though, I think you're (and a couple others) being a wee bit unreasonable here .

Arlie's supporting his game just fine, if you ask me. No problems with him or his support of his product whatsoever. I simply don't like the feel of the game, and I honestly doubt any patch is going to change that. As has been said before, I just never felt like I had much influence in my team. Felt like a lot of work, and not a lot of actual result.

...so yeah. Maybe I'm just laid back about the situation 'cause I'm not real interested. But still, it's been what...a couple months at most since the last patch? If it goes to six months, then there's a problem. 2 months for a big patch is a pittance, though.

I'm with you, CW. Playing BBCF just makes me want to play TCY -- it moves faster, and it's easier to navigate. Of course, playing TCY makes me want to play FOF 2004 with colleges, but what can you do?

[sabotai]

I usually hit a slider pretty well. In fact, I think it was the pitch I easiest time with.

[Coffee Warlord]

I'm with you, CW. Playing BBCF just makes me want to play TCY -- it moves faster, and it's easier to navigate. Of course, playing TCY makes me want to play FOF 2004 with colleges, but what can you do?

Easy. Play CK until Medieval 2, TCY2, and Spore come out.

At which point you will never see me again. :)

[st.cronin]

I usually hit a slider pretty well. In fact, I think it was the pitch I easiest time with.

I think you guys who say sliders are easy to hit never had to try to hit a GOOD one. I've seen sliders that were very easy to hit. But a good slider would make my scrotum twitch.

[sabotai]

I think you guys who say sliders are easy to hit never had to try to hit a GOOD one. I've seen sliders that were very easy to hit.Probably. I only played until high school (and the teams we faced weren't good and neither was ours). Didn't play in college.

[Passacaglia]

Easy. Play CK until Medieval 2, TCY2, and Spore come out.

At which point you will never see me again. :)

I don't know what CK is, but I've just been playing FM and keeping up my MP leagues.

[WVUFAN]

Rome Total War and Front Page Sports Football.
I wonder how many of us started our love for sports text sim games started out with Front Page Sports? Even though it's not a text sim, it has much of what we all seem to like.

[Coffee Warlord]

I wonder how many of us started our love for sports text sim games started out with Front Page Sports? Even though it's not a text sim, it has much of what we all seem to like.

It was the closest thing we had for a long, long time. And damned fun to boot.

Oh, and Passa - CK == Crusader Kings. Read the PC Trading thread, there's a little info on it there.

[Anthony]

when medieval:total war 2 comes out it will be my new favorite non-text sim game of all time (the first M:TW is my favorite non-text sim game currently) . right now the FOF series are my favorite text sim games. i've got my money's worth and then some with the FOF series. and i played the shit out of M:TW.

[MizzouRah]

I really don't mind the moderately longish wait for the patch. Hell, as was mentioned before, take my favorite sports sim of all time, FM. Takes ages for patches from that to come out, and it's not a big deal to me. Is that because the existing product is plenty good enough? Could very well be. That said though, I think you're (and a couple others) being a wee bit unreasonable here .

Arlie's supporting his game just fine, if you ask me. No problems with him or his support of his product whatsoever. I simply don't like the feel of the game, and I honestly doubt any patch is going to change that. As has been said before, I just never felt like I had much influence in my team. Felt like a lot of work, and not a lot of actual result.

...so yeah. Maybe I'm just laid back about the situation 'cause I'm not real interested. But still, it's been what...a couple months at most since the last patch? If it goes to six months, then there's a problem. 2 months for a big patch is a pittance, though.
The game is not totally unplayable, but as noted by Todd, there are still a few annoying issues which I want fixed. I really don't think I'm being unreasonable as I'm not calling for Arlie's head here, I just wish the patch would have came out awhile back.

Maybe I was spoiled by the first two patches that came out pretty quickly, but I'm just disappointed at Arlie because I do know he has a lot of potential as a sports text sim programmer. .. and I still don't get all the fuss about a player editor, but if I really wanted one, maybe I would see things differently. I just think fixes should come before additions.

Oh well, I'm not going to cry and get in a tizzy.. my motto is, "speak with my wallet". :)

[Toddzilla]

Is that a puff of white smoke rising from GDS?

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12996

[Ben E Lou]

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12996Wow. Talk about not thinking things through.

Just wow.

[QuikSand]

*grrrrr*

[Senator]

I can't believe that.

[QuikSand]

I was going to post something in that thread... but honestly, what can you say?

"Please don't be a jerk" didn't seem to come off quite right, though it was my first impulse. I went with nothing, instead.

[Ben E Lou]

Hey guys, here are like two new minor things added since the last list was published, plus, I think I'll call this the 'official update' thread to make you think that the update is actually released!!!Fixed.

[Senator]

I wish Jim would release a game to give some credibility back to football text sim designers.

[Ben E Lou]

He changed the thread title. Hmmmmm....I wonder why.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh...FWIW, the latest build of the update is looking strong, but there are still a few little bugs to get worked out.

[Toddzilla]

Well I, for one, am not going to let this go.

[Toddzilla]

Dola - just call this Maximum College Football and end the charade.

[Bee]

So I take it they are still testing the Maximum BBCF patch?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Dola - just call this Maximum College Football and end the charade.

Are you freakin kidding.???? You must be wasted or something to think that..

[Toddzilla]

Are you freakin kidding.???? You must be wasted or something to think that..
Hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole) - courtesy of Wikipedia.

[stevew]

Man, that FOF-BBCF league could have been cool. No way am I buying the game now.

[Arles]

I think Tim was a little excited about the state of the latest BETA and wanted to keep people informed. I'll repeat what I posted in the GDS forums:

Yeah, the update is going well. I've really tried to make this update fairly substantial from an engine, polls (and spreads), recruiting, reporting, editor, additional stat tracking, better archive performance, PBP, bug fixes and numerous other areas. It has taken some time to accomplish all this since the scope has really increased.

As I said a while back, I wanted to take some time in 1.1 and really listen to some of the feedback and impliment some of them. Things like additional detailed reports (ie, recruit commit report), changing the format of some emails, modifying the PBP phrases, changes to the engine, spread changes, more team stats tracked and reported, improved archive performance, adding dynamic coach prestige, prestige sliders, modifying team prestige in game and many others are things I hadn't initially scoped into this update but added because of feedback.

I've stated for the past month+ that I am going to try and impliment as many of the good ideas in the 1.1 threads that I could and that has taken some time. In the meantime, we have provided weekly updates on progress/new additions to keep everyone in the loop. Now, I can see how some people wouldn't care about a certain feature and simply want this update broken into a couple ones to get their main issue resolved quicker. But, I chose to try and get as much done as I could to really improve the game for this update.

Again, the initial wording in Tim's email was regretable and it was changed ASAP. But, I can't see how a concerted effort to provide constant updates and feedback to the gamers on the progress of the patch is a bad thing.

[Passacaglia]

I think Tim was a little excited about the state of the latest BETA and wanted to keep people informed. I'll repeat what I posted in the GDS forums:



I've stated for the past month+ that I am going to try and impliment as many of the good ideas in the 1.1 threads that I could and that has taken some time. In the meantime, we have provided weekly updates on progress/new additions to keep everyone in the loop. Now, I can see how some people wouldn't care about a certain feature and simply want this update broken into a couple ones to get their main issue resolved quicker. But, I chose to try and get as much done as I could to really improve the game for this update.

Again, the initial wording in Tim's email was regretable and it was changed ASAP. But, I can't see how a concerted effort to provide constant updates and feedback to the gamers on the progress of the patch is a bad thing.

Why include that last sentence? It's pretty obvious no one is upset about the effort to provide information. Just apologize for the mistake and move on, instead of making it seem like people are complaining about something else.

[Arles]

Why include that last sentence? It's pretty obvious no one is upset about the effort to provide information. Just apologize for the mistake and move on, instead of making it seem like people are complaining about something else.
Fair enough. I reread the replies and it looks like people were just upset on the subject of the post (not the content). We're sorry for misleading anyone and did our best to change the title ASAP to limit the confusion.

[Ben E Lou]

Arlie:

I just want to publicly say that I think you're a stand-up guy and that you're doing everything you can to make the best of the situation and get BBCF up to where it should be.

--Ben

[moriarty]

Why include that last sentence? It's pretty obvious no one is upset about the effort to provide information. Just apologize for the mistake and move on, instead of making it seem like people are complaining about something else.

Mmm... I got the impression that Toddzilla was pretty upset about misinformation (maybe that was from reading the GreyDog forum). Either way, it was an honest mistake. I think most folks here just feel BBCF could be a great game, they are just a bit frustrated by the time it's taking to release the patch (it's taking the momentum out of the thrill of purchasing the game).

Comparing it to Maximum Football though seems really, really unfair IMO. Actually comparing pretty much anything to Maximum Football at this point seems pretty unfair.

[Toddzilla]

I will admit that when I saw Tim Plum's post on the Grey Dog site, I peed in my pants a litte. I was pretty excited because I've been waiting seemingly forever for the patch to come out, and I'm of the sort that thinks that BBCF in it's current form is unplayable. The new patch seems to address every single one of my concerns, so I was pretty peeved that it was a miscommunication. And in light of Tim's comments in the "1.1 ever?" thread, thought his new thread was extremely off-putting.

[Antmeister]

...Comparing it to Maximum Football though seems really, really unfair IMO. Actually comparing pretty much anything to Maximum Football at this point seems pretty unfair.

Agreed. There wasn't 2 year delay of its release. Arlie didn't disrespect other developers. There is actually a demo for this game. And things will most likely be fixed and/or improved with the next patch and not create a slew of new problems.

[Bee]

Hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole) - courtesy of Wikipedia.

For those who missed it...:D

[Antmeister]

For those who missed it...:D

Will you please stop pointing out facts in this thread! You are trying to make my point meaningless.....you bastard. :D

[Blade6119]

when medieval:total war 2 comes out it will be my new favorite non-text sim game of all time (the first M:TW is my favorite non-text sim game currently) . right now the FOF series are my favorite text sim games. i've got my money's worth and then some with the FOF series. and i played the shit out of M:TW.
Rome total war was basically medieval total war 2

[Anthony]

Rome total war was basically medieval total war 2

go look at some of the screenshots of the game and come back to me.

M:TW2 is going to be a very sick game.

[Eaglesfan27]

Arlie:

I just want to publicly say that I think you're a stand-up guy and that you're doing everything you can to make the best of the situation and get BBCF up to where it should be.

--Ben

I completely agree. I'm still looking forward to starting a new dynasty once 1.1 is officially released.

[astrosfan64]

For the record, I would like to state I think Toddzilla is a whiney little bitch.

[CraigSca]

I completely agree. I'm still looking forward to starting a new dynasty once 1.1 is officially released.

Another "agree" here. I haven't touched the game since the first week, but I am still looking forward to giving it a go when the patch it released. It's taking a long time (too long, in my humble opinion), but that's not going to deter me upon final release.

[Toddzilla]

For the record, I would like to state I think Toddzilla is a whiney little bitch.And I think, also for the record, you are a stupid cunt. Nice to meet you.

[MizzouRah]

I'm glad Arlie is taking his time to make it a worthy patch, but the game has went past it's playing time for this year. I'm sure I'll pick it back up when college football rolls around, but it killed my release buzz.