The Oklahoma City Marlins?

[Butter]

From ESPN.com:

OKLAHOMA CITY -- Lt. Gov. Mary Fallin said Thursday she has had several talks with Florida Marlins' officials about the possibility of moving the Major League Baseball team to Oklahoma City.

"It's all very preliminary, but I have received some good feedback from the Marlins," Fallin said Thursday.

Marlins owner Jeff Loria once owned the old Oklahoma City 89ers Triple-A team, now the Oklahoma RedHawks of the Pacific Coast League.

Fallin said she wrote to Marlins president David Samson last November after seeing reports that the team was considering leaving the Miami area. The Marlins have not been able to strike a deal for a new ballpark in South Florida.

Samson declined to talk about any discussions with Oklahoma City.

"I'm not going to comment," he said. "We have been contacted by many cities, and we have not really commented until if and when we visit."

This offseason Marlins officials have visited San Antonio and Portland, Ore., and Samson met last week in Miami with representatives of Norfolk, Va.

Fallin said she has spoken by telephone several times to Marlins vice chairman Joel Mael and sent Marlins officials a packet of economic development and demographic information about central Oklahoma.

"The Marlins have asked for some more detailed information, and we are working to put that together for them," she said. "I will be bringing Chamber of Commerce and local and state government leaders together very soon to begin that process.

"Obviously, one strong sales point has been the tremendous success of the NBA Hornets in Oklahoma City this season. We are suddenly on the map for big league sports."

She said she had a meeting tentatively scheduled for next Tuesday with Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce officials, corporate leaders and others to discuss the idea and what can be done to lure the Marlins to Oklahoma.

She said Marlins officials will need to get permission from Major League Baseball to visit the city.

She said Mael was impressed by the changes in Oklahoma City since the early 1990s, when Loria owned the team, including the development of the Bricktown entertainment district, construction of a river canal and other attractions.

Fallin said Oklahoma and Oklahoma City had demonstrated they are great sports venues and every effort should be made to bring the Marlins to the state.

"It will certainly help us down the road, if this doesn't work out, to be on the radar of another major league sport," she said.


So, could this really work?

[Ksyrup]

They've been on a national tour of possible sites for a month or so now.

[CamEdwards]

As a former Oklahoma City resident, I would think not. The Oklahoma Redhawks (Triple A affiliate of the Texas Rangers) doesn't draw particularly well, a new ballpark for them was built within the past 8 years or so with taxpayer money, and the Hornets have been drawing well while having ticket prices far below the league average.

All the same, I like Mary Fallin a lot, and would love to see Oklahoma City get a major league sports team. I just don't think baseball's the sport.

[dixieflatline]

While I think it is possible for a team to move there the redhawks were 22nd in attendance in 2004 in the minors. I would think a team in Memphis, Louisville, or Indianapolis would be more realistic. Those cities AAA teams always draw well and their isn't a big league team to interfer with. Indy espeically has recently built a new stadium right by the RCA dome that appears like it could be expanded to house a MLB team. People keep mentioning portland as well but they have been drawing even worse than Oklahoma. Interestingly enough, a single A team in the chicago suburbs, Kane County, actually had the 16th best attendance with over half a million. It won't happen but I think suburbs of big cities like that could easily support a team as well.

[gottimd]

Does anything good ever come out of Oklahoma City?
*above comment directed at Cuckoo

[finketr]

While I think it is possible for a team to move there the redhawks were 22nd in attendance in 2004 in the minors. I would think a team in Memphis, Louisville, or Indianapolis would be more realistic. Those cities AAA teams always draw well and their isn't a big league team to interfer with. Indy espeically has recently built a new stadium right by the RCA dome that appears like it could be expanded to house a MLB team. People keep mentioning portland as well but they have been drawing even worse than Oklahoma. Interestingly enough, a single A team in the chicago suburbs, Kane County, actually had the 16th best attendance with over half a million. It won't happen but I think suburbs of big cities like that could easily support a team as well.

I would think that the Reds, especially, would have issues with Major League teams in both Indianapolis and Louisville. The cubs might also take issue to a major league team in Indianapolis.

WRT OK City having a major sports team, don't they have the hornets?

[dixieflatline]

I would think that the Reds, especially, would have issues with Major League teams in both Indianapolis and Louisville. The cubs might also take issue to a major league team in Indianapolis.

Sorry my mistake. MLB teams have a "home" territory where no team can be placed Indy and Louisville aren't in anyones territory from what I remember from when the expos moved. The cubs/sox/reds might not be happy about the situation but they wouldn't be able to block the move.

[Cotton]

Oklahoma Marlins. That will go down as one of the more mismatched team names.

'Utah Jazz' is about the silliest. ('Jazz' was bad to start with even before they moved from N.O. But now they're in perhaps the whitest, least jazziest city in the US. Not sure if Coltrane or Charlie Parker made too many stops in the ol' Deseret. I could be quite wrong.)

'L.A. Lakers' is pretty dumb, too. It worked for Minneapolis, sorta.

I don't think teams should necessarily change names, but it does make for some interesting combinations.

[Butter]

They've been on a national tour of possible sites for a month or so now.

Enlighten me... what are the others they've considered? Las Vegas is one, isn't it?

[finketr]

Sorry my mistake. MLB teams have a "home" territory where no team can be placed Indy and Louisville aren't in anyones territory from what I remember from when the expos moved. The cubs/sox/reds might not be happy about the situation but they wouldn't be able to block the move.

no worries.. I didn't mean to come across like it wouldn't happen.. just might not be as wise to place a team in either city...

of course, i live 1/2way between Chicago and STL...bears, cubs, and cards fans all over the place.

i'm from southwestern ohio.

[gottimd]

Oklahoma Marlins. That will go down as one of the more mismatched team names.
What about something original like the Houston Texans? Call them the Oklahoma Okies.:D

[Desnudo]

What's the biggest city currently without a team?

[gottimd]

What's the biggest city currently without a team?
Baseball or any sport?

[finketr]

las vegas

[dixieflatline]

What's the biggest city currently without a team?

I think the northern New Jersey area is the largest if you count them without a team. But but the yanks and mets have that as their "home" territory so no team can move there. Portland, Sacramento, and Vegas are some other large ones (which nobody can block). No real great spot stands out.

[Crapshoot]

What free agent worth his salt will want to go Oklahoma City ? Then again, being the Marlins, this isn't likely to be a problem anytime soon.

[JeeberD]

Isn't San Antonio like in the top ten largest cities in the US? No major league baseball there...

[gottimd]

Isn't San Antonio like in the top ten largest cities in the US? No major league baseball there...
But with the Rangers and Astros around...wouldn't it be too much competition market wise?

[JeeberD]

I'm not sure...the Spurs seem to draw well. How did the Saints do in their San Antonio games?

[GoldenEagle]

I would love to see a team in Memphis. But, due to the local government, the finances in Memphis are in ruin. There is no way they could put together a package to lure a MLB team. Autozone Park could be expanded to seat around 25k (I think it seats 14k now), but it would take some money and creativity. Plus, everyone seems to just like having the AAA team of the Cardinals in town. This is Cardinal country. Another team just would not work.

I would rather the city go after something it could handle like a MLS team.

[GoldenEagle]

The largest cites without a MLB team:

1. San Antonio
2. San Jose
3. Indianapolis
4. Jacksonville (I had no clue it was this big)
5. Columbus
6. Austin
7. Memphis
8. Charlotte
9. El Paso (ha!)
10. Louisville

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

[JeeberD]

9. El Paso (ha!)


We couldn't even keep our AA team... :(

[GoldenEagle]

We couldn't even keep our AA team... :(
Or even a college baseball team!

[gottimd]

(I had no clue it was this big)

ahhhh...brings back fond memories of being single and what the ladies would say.

[JeeberD]

Or even a college baseball team!

That had more to do with school finances than anything else. And now it would be a bitch to bring a team back with Title IX in the way...

[duckman]

What free agent worth his salt will want to go Oklahoma City ? Then again, being the Marlins, this isn't likely to be a problem anytime soon.
Oklahoma City is actually a pretty nice city.

[SFL Cat]

I would love to see a team in Memphis. But, due to the local government, the finances in Memphis are in ruin. There is no way they could put together a package to lure a MLB team. Autozone Park could be expanded to seat around 25k (I think it seats 14k now), but it would take some money and creativity. Plus, everyone seems to just like having the AAA team of the Cardinals in town. This is Cardinal country. Another team just would not work.

I would rather the city go after something it could handle like a MLS team.

Do you think Memphis would support a pro football team playing in the spring (ala the USFL?). I seem to recall the XFL team there didn't do so well, but I know previous teams in other leagues, the WFL's Southmen, Grizzlies and the USFL's Showboats seemed to do ok.

[SFL Cat]

Oklahoma City is actually a pretty nice city.

If they were awarded a pro football franchise, I think OKC would go bonkers (I guess a team would have to play in Norman until OKC could actually build a stadium). However, I'm not sure how much of a baseball town it is. They have a pretty nice ballpark now, but I've heard the minor league team that plays there doesn't get a lot of support.

The Hornets seem to be doing well, especially compared to how they did in New Orleans, but I'm not sure how well they'll do in the long run if they stay. That part of the country seems to be football crazy.

[Crapshoot]

Oklahoma City is actually a pretty nice city.

I'm sure it as, but an FA attraction, would it help at all - heck, wouldn't it hurt ?

[Young Drachma]

I think the northern New Jersey area is the largest if you count them without a team. But but the yanks and mets have that as their "home" territory so no team can move there. Portland, Sacramento, and Vegas are some other large ones (which nobody can block). No real great spot stands out.

They could move to a particular part of the state that's far enough away from both, but...both would oppose. That said, there is a market for it there.

As for OKC, I think it's way better suited for basketball than a long MLB season of not-so-good teams. Indy would be a better fit, I think, but they're not in the running.

They've visited Norfolk, Raleigh, San Antonio and of course, Vegas. Who knows who has the edge, Portland will lobby hard too probably.

I still think they'll stay in Florida, 'cuz what would the Marlins be doing moving when the Devil Rays play in a worse park, in Yankee territory?

[duckman]

If they were awarded a pro football franchise, I think OKC would go bonkers (I guess a team would have to play in Norman until OKC could actually build a stadium). However, I'm not sure how much of a baseball town it is. They have a pretty nice ballpark now, but I've heard the minor league team that plays there doesn't get a lot of support.

The Hornets seem to be doing well, especially compared to how they did in New Orleans, but I'm not sure how well they'll do in the long run if they stay. That part of the country seems to be football crazy.
I was thinking in terms of drawing potential free agents. The city government has done a decent job of making this an enjoyable place to live especially with the buildup in the Bricktown area. There are plenty of things to do and the people are very friendly. It has all the things of a big city, but not the big city feel.

[SFL Cat]

I still think they'll stay in Florida, 'cuz what would the Marlins be doing moving when the Devil Rays play in a worse park, in Yankee territory?

Never overestimate the intelligence of your typical MLB owner. Those guys are determined to sink their own ship.

Personally, I think the Marlins are gone unless they get the retractable roof stadium they want....and it doesn't look like that is going to happen, at least not at tax-payer expense.

[GoldenEagle]

Do you think Memphis would support a pro football team playing in the spring (ala the USFL?). I seem to recall the XFL team there didn't do so well, but I know previous teams in other leagues, the WFL's Southmen, Grizzlies and the USFL's Showboats seemed to do ok.
No. Memphis is a college sports town. The reason the Grizzlies have done ok is because of the city's love affair with basketball and a rather large urban population. Right now, all you are hearing about is Memphis Tiger basketball. When the team is doing well, there is a buzz to the city. The Tigers put up like a 12.3 rating when they are on tv as compared to the 5-6 rating the Grizzlies have.

On a tanget, Memphis has probably been the closest city to landing a NFL team without actually getting one.

[Wolfpack]

They've visited Norfolk, Raleigh, San Antonio and of course, Vegas. Who knows who has the edge, Portland will lobby hard too probably.

I don't think the Marlins went to Raleigh. Charlotte, I believe, but not Raleigh. The Triangle rather likes being a minor league mecca of sorts with the Bulls and Mudcats.

Even then, Charlotte hasn't really shown much interest in landing the Marlins. Their general reaction when Florida first announced their intentions to possibly move and listed Charlotte among the choices was along the lines of, "Really? Hadn't given it a thought."

[SFL Cat]

No. Memphis is a college sports town. The reason the Grizzlies have done ok is because of the city's love affair with basketball and a rather large urban population. Right now, all you are hearing about is Memphis Tiger basketball. When the team is doing well, there is a buzz to the city. The Tigers put up like a 12.3 rating when they are on tv as compared to the 5-6 rating the Grizzlies have.

On a tanget, Memphis has probably been the closest city to landing a NFL team without actually getting one.

Yeah, Memphis has come close several times to landing a NFL team. However, with the Titans in Nashville, I think any chance they might have had in that regard is gone.

[sterlingice]

The largest cites without a MLB team:

1. San Antonio
2. San Jose
3. Indianapolis
4. Jacksonville (I had no clue it was this big)
5. Columbus
6. Austin
7. Memphis
8. Charlotte
9. El Paso (ha!)
10. Louisville

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.htmlYou need to use metro areas, not city population for something like this since they'd draw from the entire area. I'll see if I can find that info.

SI

[dixieflatline]

They could move to a particular part of the state that's far enough away from both, but...both would oppose. That said, there is a market for it there.

As for OKC, I think it's way better suited for basketball than a long MLB season of not-so-good teams. Indy would be a better fit, I think, but they're not in the running.

Yes the new york teams don't control all of NJ but they do control the northern part and I don't think anyone is considering puting a team in the southern section. I completely agree that Indy would be a good fit and I don't understand why they aren't being considered. They seem to have everything going for them: A new stadium in a great location that could easily be expanded, a decent sized population and surrounding population, and a record of drawing good crowds.

Throwing another city into the ring. Nashville has just agreed to build a new stadium for their AAA team. They didn't draw all that well in the last few years but that is partly due to the decrepit old stadium which is in the seedy section of town (who knew there was a seedy section of Nashville?) Seems to me that the Kentucky/Tennesse area would be viable and if Memphis is out and Nashville is already builing a new stadium they might be a decent choice.

[sterlingice]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_markets.shtml
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2004-06-29-expos-analysis_x.htm

3,426,350 Montréal, QC (NHL)
2,265,223 Portland, OR (NBA)
1,986,965 Vancouver, BC (NHL)
1,796,857 Sacramento, CA (NBA)
1,644,561 Orlando, FL (NBA)
1,607,486 Indianapolis, IN (NBA, NFL)
1,592,383 San Antonio, TX (NBA)
1,540,157 Columbus, OH (NHL)
1,499,293 Charlotte, NC (NBA, NFL)
1,337,726 New Orleans, LA (NBA, NFL)
note: Las Vegas is not on the list as they have no major sports teams
1,563,282 Las Vegas (from the other article)

by comparison (3 smallest MLB markets):
1,979,202 Cincinnati Reds
1,776,062 Kansas City Royals
1,689,572 Milwaukee Brewers

So, as much as everyone loves the pipe dream of Las Vegas- it'd be the smallest market, MLB wants nothing to do with there, and it's behind about 8 other cities in terms of population, tho it does have money those cities don't. That said, this is why Portland kindof looks like the best choice.

SI

[dixieflatline]

by comparison (3 smallest MLB markets):
1,979,202 Cincinnati Reds
1,776,062 Kansas City Royals
1,689,572 Milwaukee Brewers

SI

So clearly 1 1/2 million is enough to support a team. The Brewers have been terrible over the past ten years and yet drew over 2 million in each of the past two years. Milwaukee isn't exactly known as a baseball town. Also, the exchance rates have in the past really hurt the canadian clubs (not saying that the expos should have moved).

[sterlingice]

So clearly 1 1/2 million is enough to support a team. The Brewers have been terrible over the past ten years and yet drew over 2 million in each of the past two years. Milwaukee isn't exactly known as a baseball town. Also, the exchance rates have in the past really hurt the canadian clubs (not saying that the expos should have moved).I dunno- those are 3 pretty small market teams that people bitch a lot about. Do you really want another Brewers or Royals?

SI

[Wolfpack]

Heh. Move the Marlins to Montreal. That'd be quite ironic from a number of angles.

[sooner333]

I think Oklahoma City is a great place, but a terrible place for a major league baseball team. The Redhawks have done a lot better in attendance, especially last year breaking their record from the opening season downtown (and the Oklahoma minor league baseball record), but that doesn't mean you can draw the amount necessary for 81 home dates. Basketball is all right because it is 41 home dates with a capacity of 19,500 rather than the 30,000+ needed for baseball. Sure baseball teams don't need the sellout that a basketball team would like, but it would still be hard-pressed to fill it.

I was at a exhibition game last year between the Cards and the Orioles at the Brick, and it was cold, but sold out...I can't see that year round though. I think this is just a ploy to get the name out there and make it look like we are seriously looking for a sports franchise to be bought out by a group led by Clay Bennett (and the other partners currently helping to finance the Hornets).

[dixieflatline]

I dunno- those are 3 pretty small market teams that people bitch a lot about. Do you really want another Brewers or Royals?


The problem is there really aren't that many markets much bigger than milwaukee or KC. Are you in favor of contraction then? I don't see a problem with the marlins relocating to a market of that size.

I don't know about the Royals but the Brewers are making plenty of money. They projected break even last year at around 1.9 million fans and got over 2.2 million. With a potential for an above .500 record and season ticket sales way up I expect them to basically be printing money in the next five years.

I hear people bitching about the royals but most of that has to do with how horribly they are run. Even with the terrible team they put on the field they drew 2.3 million fans in 2004. With their small payroll and revenue sharing I'd be very surprised if David Glass lost money last year.

Baseball has a somewhat imperfect system but most of these small market teams aren't in nearly as bad shape as MLB would like you to believe. Sure they aren't spending as much as the Yankees but nobody is spending that much. The gap between Milwaukee and say Detroit or Philly isn't as much as you would think.

[ISiddiqui]

I've heard Charlotte wants to have a chance at the Marlins, but I don't know if they'll be able to draw them.

[Young Drachma]

Frankly, with Loria running that team, it's a wonder that any city would bow to his demands.

After the whole DC debacle, I have a feeling MLB will talk to one of these cities to keep that team somewhere in Florida.

I still say the Devil Rays ought to move up North, that way, George can have Tampa back as Yankee territory.

As for Jersey not getting a team, it would only take some money to keep the Yanks from whining too hard. And someone with deep pockets willing to buy in. If for no other reason than to have a place to show Yankee games when they come to town.

I wonder if it's be against the rules for the owners of two teams to agree to split profits different for road games than they already do. That could solve it.

[stevew]

I'm suprised they don't at least consider Mexico City. I'm sure the union would be against it.

[Ksyrup]

Enlighten me... what are the others they've considered? Las Vegas is one, isn't it?
Just the ones that have been listed in the article - Portland, San Antonio, Norfolk, and OK City.

[st.cronin]

Las Vegas would be a total disaster, unless tourists go to sporting events. Doesn't seem likely to me.

[Abe Sargent]

The largest cites without a MLB team:

4. Jacksonville (I had no clue it was this big)


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html


Jacksonville is one ofthe largest cities by area in the nation, so it looks bigger than it really is. If you add Wisconsin to Green Bay's market, the Jags have the smallest market of any NFL team. Jacksonville just has most of its suburbs in it.


-Anxiety

[duckman]

Jacksonville is one ofthe largest cities by area in the nation, so it looks bigger than it really is. If you add Wisconsin to Green Bay's market, the Jags have the smallest market of any NFL team. Jacksonville just has most of its suburbs in it.


-Anxiety
Oklahoma City is in the same boat as Jacksonville. OKC is 3rd or 4th largest city by land area in the US while only the 28th in population. The suburbs is what gives the area a decent population. If I remember correctly, the population is just over a million.

[clintl]

The largest cites without a MLB team:

1. San Antonio
2. San Jose
3. Indianapolis
4. Jacksonville (I had no clue it was this big)
5. Columbus
6. Austin
7. Memphis
8. Charlotte
9. El Paso (ha!)
10. Louisville

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html

You need to look at the size of the metropolitan area, not the city. And San Jose doesn't work because the Giants own the territorial rights (that's keeping the A's from moving there, even though they would like to).

Sacramento, Charlotte, and Portland are the largest metropolitan areas without a team (and all are very close). And, by the way, all three have less than half of the Miami metropolitan area's population. Sacramento's AAA team draws very well, but with Oakland only 80 miles away and San Francisco only about 90, it's probably not much of contender.

http://www.demographia.com/db-metmic2004.pdf

[Wolfpack]

When I was down in NC over the holidays, the Marlins had announced they were considering moving. At that time, the discussion in Charlotte centered around getting the Knights out of Fort Mill and back to downtown. To that end, there were articles in the paper discussing a plan to build a new minor league ballpark downtown. Even after the news broke about the Marlins, there was generally a downplaying of the possibility of moving to Charlotte by the locals, things like not considering expanding the planned ballpark to major league seating levels and saying that Charlotte's density won't be able to sustain a team for another couple of decades.

[clintl]

I still can't figure out how it's possible that MLB can't succeed in the Miami market. It's plenty big enough, and with the big Cuban immigrant population, you would think that there should be an enthusiastic fan base.

[Shkspr]

I still can't figure out how it's possible that MLB can't succeed in the Miami market. It's plenty big enough, and with the big Cuban immigrant population, you would think that there should be an enthusiastic fan base.

Crappy stadium lease that gives lots of money to an old owner, which leaves the current owners, whoever they may be, cash poor no matter what they do, right?

I don't know a WHOLE lot about the situation, but IIRC, the original owner of the Marlins kept the stadium when he sold the team and gets a large chunk of the day to day revenue of the team, which goes into his pocket. This means that the team has less revenue coming in in their current stadium, so they can't hold onto good players, which makes it difficult to keep a loyal fan base. THeir response is to try to get a new stadium built to get out of the lease with Huizenga, but a) the public sees that they aren't in a shithole and won't fund it, b) Selig has a vested interest in not letting teams shell out too much of their own money for stadium plans (since that lessens the chances of getting other cities to fund them), and c) the money they'd use to pay off the bonds they raised to build the stadium privately would go to Huizenga anyway.

Add to that that Florida really [i]isn't[i] an easy sell for baseball. Lots of the fans are transplants, which mean they have their own teams they root for. It's darn hot to watch a game in Miami in July. The beach is calling.

As screwed up as their situation is, the success the Marlins have had the past decade is astounding.