Vince Young, revisited

[Solecismic]

There's a rumor making the rounds that Vince Young scored a 6 on his Wonderlic test. A second-grade class might have a higher average on that test.

If this holds up (apparently he might have misunderstood the instructions and they might regrade or retest him, though there's no statement from anyone and it could well be a legitimate score), does this knock him out of the top of the draft?

Based on the USC game and last year's thrashing of Michigan, I think he's a better talent than Mike Vick, but can you run an NFL team with a less-than grade-school education?

This is a rumor, of course. It could be just gossip from someone with an agenda.

[SackAttack]

Jim, what's the scale on the Wonderlic?

[cthomer5000]

Before the combine even started, I would say that Young seems to have dropped to being the #3 QB in the draft. If this Wonderlic stuff is true, that's a damn near guarantee.

Regardless of how poorly he scores, I honestly can't see him past #4 in the draft. I think 3 QBs are going that early, unless the Jets make a major free-agent signing.

[Scoobz0202]

50 is perfect.

[Hurst2112]

ESPN Radio reports that an NFL official came out and denied the rumors.

[Logan]

A. I don't think it's possible to misunderstand the instructions. And even if he did, he would've been the first guy in however many years the test has been running to "misunderstand" it. I doubt that.

B. He'll still go top 4.

[Hurst2112]

There's a rumor making the rounds that Vince Young scored a 6 on his Wonderlic test. A second-grade class might have a higher average on that test.

If this holds up (apparently he might have misunderstood the instructions and they might regrade or retest him, though there's no statement from anyone and it could well be a legitimate score), does this knock him out of the top of the draft?

Based on the USC game and last year's thrashing of Michigan, I think he's a better talent than Mike Vick, but can you run an NFL team with a less-than grade-school education?

This is a rumor, of course. It could be just gossip from someone with an agenda.


Ryan Leaf started a few games. So did Kordell Stewart. ;) :D

[Solecismic]

You have 12 minutes to answer 50 questions, 20 is the average score for the general population.

Dan Marino allegedly scored a 16, but that's not common for a quarterback. I believe Kevin Curtis of the Rams has the highest score of a current NFLer, 48.

[Poli]

I thought I heard the Fitpatrick kid, the backup QB for the Rams aced it last year.

[Scoobz0202]

Here is a sample test.
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228test.html

Here is a quote from the President of Wonderlic Inc.

"A score of 10 is literacy, that's about all we can say."
Word is Leinart scored a 35 and Vanderbilt QB Jay Cutler scored upper-20's before the Combine but his recent attempt at it is unknown.

[Poli]

Ryan Leaf started a few games. So did Kordell Stewart. ;) :DAs did Quincy Carter.

[Scoobz0202]

You have 12 minutes to answer 50 questions, 20 is the average score for the general population.

Dan Marino allegedly scored a 16, but that's not common for a quarterback. I believe Kevin Curtis of the Rams has the highest score of a current NFLer, 48.
I read that FORMER Bengal's Punter Pat McInally is the only player to ever score perfect. So, 48 is probably the highest.

[Poli]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=506053

Link to Fitzpatrick's claim.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

This Wonderlic crap always pisses me off for various reasons. This is probably a dumb rumour and I wonder what it's trying to accomplish......hmmmm. Vince Young is an excellent young quarterback, what the hell does a Wonderlic test have to do with that? I highly doubt this is true anyway.

[Rizon]

How can you score as low as a 6? I thought you get 8 points for spelling your name right.

[Poli]

Vince can be really hard to spell at times, come on.

[Tigercat]

I would think a 2 hour interview with a QB discussing a NFL playbook, checkoffs, and audibles would give a potential team all they need to know about a college QB's "smarts."

[Cap Ologist]

If you ever listened to an interview with Young, it takes 2 seconds to realize he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Buccaneer]

This Wonderlic crap always pisses me off for various reasons. This is probably a dumb rumour and I wonder what it's trying to accomplish......hmmmm. Vince Young is an excellent young quarterback, what the hell does a Wonderlic test have to do with that? I highly doubt this is true anyway.
There you go. It's just a white man's test, so it can't mean anything.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Funny I didnt say that...

[Solecismic]

Here's an interesting article which suggests that the Wonderlic is not a great predictor of NFL performance, but it only grades rookie performance, not how a quarterback develops over time.

http://www.thesportjournal.org/2005Journal/Vol8-No2/mac-mirabile.asp

However, you have to wonder if there's a minimum intelligence (maybe a 10-12) required to grasp an NFL playbook.

[Shkspr]

If the rumor that Vince Young got a 6 on the Wonderlic is accurate, it doesn't mean that he can't read or that he's more stupid than a table or anything like that. What it means is either a) he can miss details when taking direction, or b) he doesn't process unfamiliar printed information very quickly.

It isn't that the questions on the Wonderlic are hard - the 50th question on all the versions I've seen is essentially a pre-algebraic word problem. It's the time that is the issue. When Jim says that the average score is a 20, that's not a 40% success rate on answering the questions, that's more likely a 80+% answer rate on 20-24 questions.

So for an NFL quarterback prospect, what's the REAL meaning of a poor Wonderlic score? Most likely it means that the prospect won't have the skills to rapidly process new information on the field cognitively. His ceiling is determined solely by feel. He won't be able to come in and immediately learn the 500+ pages of a new NFL offense by holding the clipboard or studying it on the sidelines; he'll have to get behind the wheel and take enough reps to push it down into instinct. A complicated offense with new wrinkles in it each game will probably be tough to pick up, so an OC will have to build their offense around whatever the prospect is capable of. New coaching staffs mean new ways of doing things, so it means that the prospect is going to need scheme stability moreso than a smarter prospect.

For Young, that would mean that he is going to need a team that is willing to give him the keys immediately, will stick by him during the learning process, and most importantly give his coaching staff 5-6 years of job security to let him get real good at running it. If he is nurtured in those ways, he can probably learn enough about being an NFL quarterback to adjust his approach as his skills get older. He's still only going to last as long as the athleticism is there. If he changes teams or coaching staffs often, a 6 Wonderlic quarterback will never get enough of an NFL scheme down to the point where it's instinctual.

Tennessee is likely the absolute best place in the NFL to maximize Vince Young's chances for professional success. New Orleans would kill him as a potential star.

[Easy Mac]

I've always had to take the Personnel wonderlic whenever I had a job interview. I've always finished with plenty of time on the clock, and I always got a call back the next day, so I assume I did ok. It's really just a waste of time in my opinion, especially once you've taken it before.

[Buccaneer]

Or one can go the Kordell Stewart route and dumb down the playbook so much that he can only run 3 plays effectively, assuming the defense shows a predictable formation.

[DaddyTorgo]

Here's an interesting article which suggests that the Wonderlic is not a great predictor of NFL performance, but it only grades rookie performance, not how a quarterback develops over time.

http://www.thesportjournal.org/2005Journal/Vol8-No2/mac-mirabile.asp

However, you have to wonder if there's a minimum intelligence (maybe a 10-12) required to grasp an NFL playbook.does this mean Wonderlic scores will be out of FOF6 in favor of something else?

[Hurst2112]

Or one can go the Kordell Stewart route and dumb down the playbook so much that he can only run 3 plays effectively, assuming the defense shows a predictable formation.

I think if a GM could get a shot at the SB 2 times like Kordell did, they would take a guy that stupid.

[Solecismic]

Here are the scores from rookie QBs who played in the NFL last season:

Ryan Fitzpatrick 38
Charlie Frye 38
Dan Orlovsky 30
Kyle Orton 27
Aaron Rodgers 35
Alex Smith 32

Others of note:

Jason Campbell 28
Matt Jones 19
Adrian McPherson 26
Brock Berlin 13

The average of the rookie quarterbacks tested was 27. The only other groups in that range were tight ends and centers, with linebackers and other offensive linemen scoring in the 24 range.

The lowest groups (running backs, receivers) average 18, which is only a little below the average for the general population. By and large, football players are intelligent people.

[Noop]

Bucc = Asshole.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Agreed...

[Galaxy]

I thought I heard the Fitpatrick kid, the backup QB for the Rams aced it last year.

Can you imagine if he did crappy? Would be a black eye to Harvard. They don't even give out athletic scholarships.

[Young Drachma]

Wonderlic is overrated.

[Solecismic]

Wonderlic is overrated.

Actually, it isn't, because the numbers show that it does not play a big role in draft position. It probably plays a small role in deciding between two similar players, but ultimately, coaches want players who can get the job done physically.

If you want overrated, look at the 40-yard dash. Watching the NFL combine coverage this afternoon, the announcers made a big point mentioning how Terrell Owens ran a 4.66.

I do not understand why they don't run the dash in pads. Owens carries his weight so well, that's part of what makes him such a talented receiver.

So, Brian Calhoun ran a 4.65, and a big part of his game is speed, so he will drop off some draft boards. But if you see him play, you know his quickness is devastating. His times in the cone drill and short shuttle are much more indicative of what he can do.

I'm learning far more by watching the drills than looking at the times. Players who refuse to work out are missing out on a big opportunity. From my Michigan bias, I think Jason Avant just made a ton of money today. So did Derek Hagan of Arizona State and Mike Hass of Oregon State.

And, of course, everyone's talking about Jay Cutler.

[SackAttack]

Actually, it isn't, because the numbers show that it does not play a big role in draft position. It probably plays a small role in deciding between two similar players, but ultimately, coaches want players who can get the job done physically.

If you want overrated, look at the 40-yard dash. Watching the NFL combine coverage this afternoon, the announcers made a big point mentioning how Terrell Owens ran a 4.66.

I do not understand why they don't run the dash in pads. Owens carries his weight so well, that's part of what makes him such a talented receiver.

So, Brian Calhoun ran a 4.65, and a big part of his game is speed, so he will drop off some draft boards. But if you see him play, you know his quickness is devastating. His times in the cone drill and short shuttle are much more indicative of what he can do.

I'm learning far more by watching the drills than looking at the times. Players who refuse to work out are missing out on a big opportunity. From my Michigan bias, I think Jason Avant just made a ton of money today. So did Derek Hagan of Arizona State and Mike Hass of Oregon State.

And, of course, everyone's talking about Jay Cutler.

Seems like Cutler is getting similar buzz to Ben Roethlisberger.

[Poli]

My favorite Cutler moment:

During overtime against Florida, Cutler wouldn't look at the referees during the cointoss.

The referees flagged Vanderbilt during their late touchdown celebration for excessive celebration, though Cutler was asking for a timeout. The penalty forced Vandy to go for the tie instead of the win. Cutler was signaling to his players to go for two before the penalty, if I'm not mistaken.

[Klinglerware]

Here are the scores from rookie QBs who played in the NFL last season:

Ryan Fitzpatrick 38
Charlie Frye 38
Dan Orlovsky 30
Kyle Orton 27
Aaron Rodgers 35
Alex Smith 32

Others of note:

Jason Campbell 28
Matt Jones 19
Adrian McPherson 26
Brock Berlin 13

The average of the rookie quarterbacks tested was 27. The only other groups in that range were tight ends and centers, with linebackers and other offensive linemen scoring in the 24 range.

The lowest groups (running backs, receivers) average 18, which is only a little below the average for the general population. By and large, football players are intelligent people.


This also shows how much leaked combine scores are rife with rumor and false info. The Harvard Fitzpatrick perfect score was widely reported until it turned out that his performance, while good, wasn't as good as previously thought...

Past scores:
http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm

[Poli]

This also shows how much leaked combine scores are rife with rumor and false info. The Harvard Fitzpatrick perfect score was widely reported until it turned out that his performance, while good, wasn't as good as previously thought...

Past scores:
http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm
I never heard that his score wasn't an actual 50. I know I sound like a Fitzpatrick apologist, but I never saw a report stating the 50 was fake.

[Klinglerware]

I never heard that his score wasn't an actual 50. I know I sound like a Fitzpatrick apologist, but I never saw a report stating the 50 was fake.

Perhaps, but it could be an outlier. If that's true, it sounds like prospects can take this multiple times (since it looks like some of the players listed in the link have multiple scores associated with them). It also begs the question of how much QB's actually prepare for this--since the format of the test seems to reward speed and the questions aren't ridiculously hard, it sounds like the kind of test that can be drilled princeton review style. If skill position players' representation make them go to institutes and the like to improve their 40 times, I would assume that good agents would have QB's drill on the Wonderlic too...

[Galaxy]

Perhaps, but it could be an outlier. If that's true, it sounds like prospects can take this multiple times (since it looks like some of the players listed in the link have multiple scores associated with them). It also begs the question of how much QB's actually prepare for this--since the format of the test seems to reward speed and the questions aren't ridiculously hard, it sounds like the kind of test that can be drilled princeton review style. If skill position players' representation make them go to institutes and the like to improve their 40 times, I would assume that good agents would have QB's drill on the Wonderlic too...
I believe Akili Smith took the test twice. His first score was horrible, and came back high after studying with a tutor on the second.

[Poli]

Unless you're Vince Young. :)

[QuikSand]

The Sporting News had a mock draft a week or two ago, and had Vince Young being selected with pick #10 overall (and Cutler in the mid-teens, to Miami). Struck me as a pretty bold prediction at the time... maybe they were influenced by these rumors. I would still be very surprised to see him slide anywhere near that far.

[General Mike]

If I'm a Jets fan, there is no way in hell I want VY.

[cthomer5000]

If I'm a Jets fan, there is no way in hell I want VY.
I am and I do. I would gladly take any of the top 3 QBs.

[Raiders Army]

I'd take him, but probably not top 10.

[Crapshoot]

While I hate to interrupt the "Vince Young is an idiot, duh" bit - it seems that all the Wonderlic's were misgraded - apparently, all of them are being regraded.

[Cap Ologist]

While I hate to interrupt the "Vince Young is an idiot, duh" bit - it seems that all the Wonderlic's were misgraded - apparently, all of them are being regraded.

So, when will Vince appeal to the Supreme Court if he doesn't get the results he wants?

[MrBug708]

While I hate to interrupt the "Vince Young is an idiot, duh" bit - it seems that all the Wonderlic's were misgraded - apparently, all of them are being regraded.

Vince Young graded them?

[yabanci]

I'd like to see a monkey take the wonderlick. Just by sheer chance, a chimp should be able to equal VY's rumored score.

[RPI-Fan]

While I hate to interrupt the "Vince Young is an idiot, duh" bit - it seems that all the Wonderlic's were misgraded - apparently, all of them are being regraded.

I'd love if it if, after regrading, Vince's score came back lower.

[Buccaneer]

For a guy who's going to be called upon to read defenses and call audibles and work through a progression of receivers against NFL-caliber opposition, it's downright scary.

Just run, baby, run.

Will we see a time when those QB skills would be less valued?

[Crapshoot]

Just citing the PFT website- they're the guys who broke the "6" score in the first place, and they the entire test is being regraded.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Because running is the only skill that Vince Young has shown on the college level....Bucc other than this "rumoured" Wonderlic score what evidence do you have that Vince Young will have any more difficulty reading defenses than say...Jay Cutler or Matt Leinhart or anyone else in the draft.

[DeToxRox]

Charles Rogers had like a 6.

So it definetly tells you some things.

[Maple Leafs]

Charles Rogers had like a 6.

So it definetly tells you some things.
Wonderlic measures collarbone density?

[kcchief19]

If you ever listened to an interview with Young, it takes 2 seconds to realize he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.I have considered this too. The kid is an awful interview. I could choke it up to nervousness and experience, but he's had enough practice in interviews that he should be a whole lot better than he is. That just leaves the prospect that he's just a dimb bulb.

If the 6 is a true score, I don't think there is anyway I could draft him in the first round. I think there is a minimum intelligence you need to run an NFL team. I think this would work in concert with the fact that Young has excelled at "improvisation" -- that is he is much better playing on instinct than in part of a system. I that that has been a common theme of his college career.

[DeToxRox]

Wonderlic measures collarbone density?

Ha I wish.

Listen to the guy talk. It's a wonder what would've happened to him if he didn't have football. I sometimes think he's mentally retarded.

[Buccaneer]

Because running is the only skill that Vince Young has shown on the college level....Bucc other than this "rumoured" Wonderlic score what evidence do you have that Vince Young will have any more difficulty reading defenses than say...Jay Cutler or Matt Leinhart or anyone else in the draft.
They could bust as well but as you said, at least Jay and Matt have shown other skills at the college level.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Maybe you didnt sense the sarcasm, he did much more than run all season.

[st.cronin]

Are there any examples of QBs who were highly regarded prospects, scored badly on the wonderlic, and have succeeded in the NFL?

[cthomer5000]

They could bust as well but as you said, at least Jay and Matt have shown other skills at the college level. Yeah, Vince can't pass at all. Only the 3rd highest rated QB in the nation this year (ahead of the other two guys).

edit: in case anyone else has forgotten:

<table class="tablehead" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"> <tbody><tr class="stathead" style="background: rgb(239, 115, 33) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><td colspan="6">Texas Passing</td></tr><tr class="colhead" align="right"><td align="left"> </td><td>C/ATT</td><td>YDS</td><td>AVG</td><td>TD</td><td>INT</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Vince Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=135107)</td><td>30/40</td><td>267</td><td>6.7</td><td>0</td><td>0</td></tr><tr class="bi evenrow" align="right"><td align="left">
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td><td>
</td></tr></tbody> </table>
<table class="tablehead" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"> <tbody><tr class="stathead" style="background: rgb(239, 115, 33) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial;"><td colspan="6">Texas Rushing</td></tr><tr class="colhead" align="right"><td align="left"> </td><td>CAR</td><td>YDS</td><td>AVG</td><td>TD</td><td>LG</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left" nowrap="nowrap">Vince Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=135107)</td><td>19</td><td>200</td><td>10.5</td><td>3</td><td>45</td></tr></tbody> </table>

[Buccaneer]

I know that, I saw what he did against Colorado (this first game).

So what kind of QB would he become in the NFL?

[cthomer5000]

I know that, I saw what he did against Colorado (this first game).

So what kind of QB would he become in the NFL?
To me he most closely resembles Randall Cunningham, who had a pretty solid career as a passer as well as runner. But the question your asking is the one every NFL scout wishes he could answer.

[Buccaneer]

I do wonder, though, how much of his last game plays in the mind of scouts and fans? Would a team consider him higher than usual (despite his alleged score) because of wanting to capture that kind of magic again?

[st.cronin]

To me he most closely resembles Randall Cunningham, who had a pretty solid career as a passer as well as runner. But the question your asking is the one every NFL scout wishes he could answer.

I don't think he is close to Cunningham in terms of arm strength. I think he's more like Rich Gannon with a couple extra horses under the hood.

[Buccaneer]

Yeah, Vince can't pass at all. Only the 3rd highest rated QB in the nation this year (ahead of the other two guys).

edit: in case anyone else has forgotten:

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=stathead style="BACKGROUND: rgb(239,115,33) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><TD colSpan=6>Texas Passing</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left></TD><TD>C/ATT</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>INT</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD noWrap align=left>Vince Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=135107)</TD><TD>30/40</TD><TD>267</TD><TD>6.7</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class="bi evenrow" align=right><TD align=left>


</TD><TD>


</TD><TD>


</TD><TD>


</TD><TD>


</TD><TD>


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=stathead style="BACKGROUND: rgb(239,115,33) 0% 50%; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><TD colSpan=6>Texas Rushing</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD align=left></TD><TD>CAR</TD><TD>YDS</TD><TD>AVG</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>LG</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD noWrap align=left>Vince Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=135107)</TD><TD>19</TD><TD>200</TD><TD>10.5</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>45</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
But you also have to balance peak value vs career value

Leinart

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2003</TD><TD>255</TD><TD>402</TD><TD>3556</TD><TD>63.4</TD><TD>8.85</TD><TD>73</TD><TD>38</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>164.46</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>2004</TD><TD>269</TD><TD>412</TD><TD>3322</TD><TD>65.3</TD><TD>8.06</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>33</TD><TD>6</TD><TD>24</TD><TD>156.54</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>2005</TD><TD>283</TD><TD>431</TD><TD>3815</TD><TD>65.7</TD><TD>8.85</TD><TD>67</TD><TD>28</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>17</TD><TD>157.74</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Solecismic]

Are there any examples of QBs who were highly regarded prospects, scored badly on the wonderlic, and have succeeded in the NFL?

Well, Steve McNair scored a 15, but was still drafted third and has had a solid career. Donovan McNabb scored a 12 and a 16 (not sure which was first) and has done very well. Vinny Testaverde scored an 18, Daunte Culpepper a 15, an 18 and a 21 on three tries, Mike Vick scored a 20 and Trent Dilfer scored a 22.

That's the sum total of quarterbacks who scored in the bottom 20% (among quarterbacks), were drafted in the first round and are still in the NFL. The average for the quarterbacks currently in the NFL is 27.

Believe it or not, the highest score among that set is Drew Henson's 42, followed by a tie at 39 from Brian Griese, Eli Manning and Aaron Rodgers. So a superb score doesn't necessarily translate to instant fame - at least if you're from Michigan.

[cthomer5000]

I do wonder, though, how much of his last game plays in the mind of scouts and fans? Would a team consider him higher than usual (despite his alleged score) because of wanting to capture that kind of magic again?
I think he was at worst a Top 15 pick before that game. Obviously having his best game ever against a "dynasty" on such a huge stage doesn't hurt that. Why should it?

[Buccaneer]

I don't think he is close to Cunningham in terms of arm strength. I think he's more like Rich Gannon with a couple extra horses under the hood.
Don't forget that Gannon did rush for more than 500 yds one season (I forget which).

[Buccaneer]

I think he was at worst a Top 15 pick before that game. Obviously having his best game ever against a "dynasty" on such a huge stage doesn't hurt that. Why should it?
Because I think it could be the Vick Syndrome all over again. VY would put fans in the seats anticipating the possibility of having another game like that. And as long as there is that chance, it wouldn't matter how poorly/mediocre/well he would do in the meantime (esp. at his young age). Does that make him more of a risk vs. someone like Leinart who maybe perceived as a safer (if not less exciting) choice?

[st.cronin]

Don't forget that Gannon did rush for more than 500 yds one season (I forget which).

Yeah, Gannon in his Minnesota days was like Cunningham lite. I think VY will be sort of like that, although potentially better than Gannon.

[Buccaneer]

Yeah, Gannon in his Minnesota days was like Cunningham lite. I think VY will be sort of like that, although potentially better than Gannon.
Even if he goes to Tennessee or New Orleans?

[cthomer5000]

Because I think it could be the Vick Syndrome all over again. VY would put fans in the seats anticipating the possibility of having another game like that. And as long as there is that chance, it wouldn't matter how poorly/mediocre/well he would do in the meantime (esp. at his young age). Does that make him more of a risk vs. someone like Leinart who maybe perceived as a safer (if not less exciting) choice?
Who knows. I'm sure the pro scouts don't know. I know I'm not going to find the divine answer on which will be the better pro QB in this thread.

All I know is as a Jet fan, the excitement factor never needs to be an issue. The stadium is sold out to season ticket holders and the wait list is at least 10 years long (I know, becasue that's how long I've been on it). I'm sure it's a simple matter of preferenace among franchises as to who their #1, 2 and 3 QBs are.

I would say the outward perception is that Leinart has a higher floor and lower ceiling. Young probably has better potential as well as a higher volatility rating (to put things in FOF terms). I can admit I've never seen Jay Cutler throw a football, so I have no opinion on the guy.

[finkenst]

Charles Rogers had like a 6.

So it definetly tells you some things.
He rubbed off on Joey Harrington?

[clintl]

This also shows how much leaked combine scores are rife with rumor and false info. The Harvard Fitzpatrick perfect score was widely reported until it turned out that his performance, while good, wasn't as good as previously thought...

Past scores:
http://www.unc.edu/~mirabile/Wonderlic.htm

Nice to see the guy from my alma mater, J.T. O'Sullivan, did well on the test.

[vex]

Just citing the PFT website- they're the guys who broke the "6" score in the first place, and they the entire test is being regraded.
Rumor is that they accidentally doubled all the scores;)

[stevew]

KFFL quoted some reporter as stating that Vince also scored a 6 on his re-test.

[IwasHere]

Can you post some current NFL players that score under 10 on their test? This could be a sign the Young has some type of learning dissability. So, it could be huge.



There are unnaccaptable numbers. Clarrett fell off the board with his 5+ 40yd time. Nobody in their right mind is going to look at a WR running running a 5.45. And, a QB that scores a 6 on his test will never, ever be able to read a pro defense. Young could still play WR with a 6, but not Quarterback.

[yabanci]

We shall see.

GM: Don't buy Internet rumor on Young
Texans' Casserly says reports of low score 'inaccurate'

By D. ORLANDO LEDBETTER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 02/27/06

Indianapolis — Internet reports that Texas quarterback Vince Young scored in the single-digits on the Wonderlic Intelligence Test were labeled as inaccurate by Houston Texans general manager Charlie Casserly.

"I have been told that's inaccurate from a source good enough for me to stand up here and quote it," Casserly told about 100 reporters. "Otherwise, I wouldn't just get up here and say it."

Young is considered one of the top three players in the upcoming draft after leading the Longhorns to a national championship. An extremely low score would send up a red flag to some teams and could lead to a precipitous drop in Young's draft status.

The Wonderlic Test consists of 50 questions that must be answered in 12 minutes. Profootballtalk.com reported that Young answered only six questions correctly.

"We haven't gotten the results," Casserly said. "We don't get them until next week."

The NFL's 32 teams use the results differently.

"I can point to players who have high test scores, but could not necessarily learn football," Casserly said. "We go through a process, and then we evaluate the players' ability to learn our system."

NFL teams look at the Wonderlic as essentially a reading test.

"It's more of an academic orientated test than anything to do with being able to adjust and play on a football field," Casserly said. "We have another test that we use which relates more to football."

If a player were to score in the single-digits, he'd likely be re-tested.

"If the test is below a certain line, we'll re-test players," Casserly said. "It's not uncommon for players to be re-tested."

[Deattribution]

On a somewhat related note

INDIANAPOLIS -- Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush might not land with the Houston Texans after all.

Texans general manager Charley Casserly said Sunday the Texans have been talking to teams about possibly trading the first pick in the 2006 draft.

It has been widely speculated that the Heisman Trophy winning running back out of Southern California would end up with the Texans because they recently gave quarterback David Carr a three-year contract extension.

The Texans, who finished 2-14 last season, have multiple needs that might be filled with one major move.

"There's clearly players at the top of this draft that are marquee players," Casserly said. "Players that are impact players, players that are going to go to the Pro Bowl, players that are going to sell tickets. We're going to get offers for this pick. We've already had discussions with teams. I think there's value in our pick.

"Whether it's Reggie Bush, Vince Young or Matt Leinart, those three players are going to produce trade offers. We are definitely going to have some choices when it comes to draft day."

Doesn't mean alot yet, but it's interesting that they haven't went concrete on selecting Bush afterall.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2346349

[IwasHere]

Yeah, it sounds like they are just going to keep retesting him until he scores above a 10. Go Vince baby.

[Noop]

Seriously Bucc if it was Steve Young you would be ready to suck his dick. But since its vince young you spout of your hate. Fuck You Bitch.

[Cap Ologist]

Can you post some current NFL players that score under 10 on their test? This could be a sign the Young has some type of learning dissability. So, it could be huge.



There are unnaccaptable numbers. Clarrett fell off the board with his 5+ 40yd time. Nobody in their right mind is going to look at a WR running running a 5.45. And, a QB that scores a 6 on his test will never, ever be able to read a pro defense. Young could still play WR with a 6, but not Quarterback.


Clarett ran 4.8's I believe.

[Klinglerware]

I don't think it's the Wonderlic score itself, since taking it and doing reasonably on it is something that could be drilled (much like you can train to shave a couple of points off your 40 time). It's a minor player on the list of measurables, but I can see how GM's would see a poor performance as a "how badly do you want to work to make it in the NFL?" type of indicator.

Listening to ESPN radio, apparently all agents worth their salt have several examples of the Wonderlic test on hand. The large agencies send their prospects to "finishing school" where they work on their measurables and role-play their interviews etc. I would assume that they drill the Wonderlic too. I wonder if Young's agent was doing his job on this front...

[wade moore]

Seriously Bucc if it was Steve Young you would be ready to suck his dick. But since its vince young you spout of your hate. Fuck You Bitch.
wow.

[cartman]

The word out now is that he scored a 16 on the test. Not great, but within the average range.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3687374.html

False score gives Young wrong kind of buzz
UT QB's disputed Wonderlic grade talk of the combine

INDIANAPOLIS - Like his performance in the Rose Bowl, quarterback Vince Young rallied from a huge deficit to pull out a personal victory that might have earned him millions of dollars.

On Saturday, a rumor that Young had scored a 6 on the Wonderlic test sent shock waves through the combine. No coach, scout or general manager surveyed could produce an example of a starting quarterback with a single-digit Wonderlic score.

The test — 50 multiple-choice, non-football questions in 12 minutes — is a barometer that teams use to gauge a prospect's ability to learn.

On Sunday, the combine said the test score of 6 that was being reported by some media outlets was false.

"I've been told it was inaccurate by a source good enough for me to quote it," Texans general manager Charley Casserly said Sunday afternoon.

Young took the test again and scored 16. According to Young's agent, Major Adams, the Sunday test was administered by Jeff Foster, executive director of National Scouting Combine.

"The combine officials assured us that score (6) was false and that the accurate score will be known when the combine results are given to each team," Adams said.

Wonderlic scores are supposed to be confidential and are never confirmed publicly by the NFL. Because they are included in combine results given to teams after the combine, scores leak out.

"The number really doesn't mean anything to us because we go through a process of four or five other ways to evaluate it," Casserly said. "The number's insignificant to us in the end. It's the other areas that we put more weight on."

Prospects can take the Wonderlic tests as many times as they want.

"I heard about the 6," Tennessee general manager Floyd Reese said Sunday morning. "I heard the test was improperly given, and I heard they're going to try and correct it.

"It could be improperly given because of time. It could be improperly given because when you correct it, there are like six or seven different tests. If you correct Test A with a correct sheet for Test C, it's not going to come out very well."

Rose-tinted glasses
Many executives believe the Wonderlic test is culturally biased, which is the reason they administer other tests they believe more accurately test a player's intelligence.

"I've seen players test in single digits and play 10 years, and I've seen some guys test in the 30s that couldn't walk across the street," said Reese, who has been in the NFL since 1975.

Before the combine, many prospects get help to prepare for the test. They take the tests almost every day to get ready for the combine. Young is expected to take the test again before the Longhorns' pro day March 22.

Scores for quarterbacks in the past five drafts vary, according to nfldraftscout.com. For instance, Michael Vick scored a 20, David Carr had a 24 and Eli Manning came in with a 39.

"The Wonderlic is just a red flag," Titans coach Jeff Fisher said. "Before the draft, everybody will sit down with Vince and find out if he can process information. The test has been the standard for decades, but it's only one part of the evaluation process. It's just a first step. There'll be a lot of other tests he'll undergo."

Sean Jones, a member of Oakland's personnel department, put little stock in Young's Wonderlic score.

"All I need to know about Vince Young is that he came up with one of the greatest performances ever in the Rose Bowl," Jones said. "In the fourth quarter, I saw (USC coach) Pete Carroll throw every kind of blitz at Vince. I saw Vince read the blitz and beat the blitz.

"I don't care what his Wonderlic score is. The only score I care about is 41-38."

Defensive tackle Rodrique Wright, Young's teammate at UT, came to the QB's defense.

"I think Vince's decision-making will be missed even more than his athleticism," Wright said about the Longhorns. "We knew all along that Vince was a great athlete who could run and throw, but the biggest improvement he made from his freshman year through his junior year was in the decision-making process.

"You don't lead a team to a national championship if you can't make good decisions."

Interview goes well
While Young's Wonderlic tests created a huge controversy, he was busy interviewing with different teams, including the Texans.

"I thought the interview went well," Young said. "I thought coach (Gary) Kubiak was cool.

"They asked me a lot of questions about offense. At the end, they asked me why I thought I'd be good for the team. I basically told them that I'm a high-character guy that wants to win. I said it's important to be a leader.

"I told them I wanted a chance to lead them to a Super Bowl win."

Kubiak was impressed with Young, too.

"We had a great interview with him," Kubiak said. "I wanted him to tell me why football's important to him. I wanted to talk to him about his leadership qualities. We talked a lot about offense.

"I was very, very impressed with the kid. But I was impressed with Reggie Bush, too."

[RendeR]

Seriously Bucc if it was Steve Young you would be ready to suck his dick. But since its vince young you spout of your hate. Fuck You Bitch.Noop, dude, lay off the angry man routine, thats my racket.

seriously though, you need to ease up. I don't agree with Bucc's BS post about the "white mans test" either, but you're way out of line getting this upset.

[Shkspr]

Seriously Bucc if it was Steve Young you would be ready to suck his dick. But since its vince young you spout of your hate. Fuck You Bitch.

Look, can't we all just agree that Steve Young is a very attractive man, with a raw, sort of feral sexual magnetis...

oh, Wonderlic scores, right. Never mind.

[Ben E Lou]

Bucc played the race card out of left field, and he has pretty much stated his disdain for "black" quarterbacks in the past. While I think Noop over-reacted, when you call the tune...

No punitive measures, as long as it stops here.

[Shkspr]

"We had a great interview with him," Kubiak said. "I wanted him to tell me why football's important to him. I wanted to talk to him about his leadership qualities. We talked a lot about shiny objects. And he kept saying 'ball' a lot and pointing at the football I was carrying.

"I was very, very impressed with the kid. But I was impressed with Reggie Bush, too."

Hmmm.

[Subby]

Seriously Bucc if it was Steve Young you would be ready to suck his dick. But since its vince young you spout of your hate. Fuck You Bitch.Dude - you are so out of your mind wrong it isn't even funny.

The only dick Bucc wants to suck is Angie Harman's....

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[IwasHere]

I still wonder if the score(6) the first time he took the test will ever be officially reported?

Or, will they just have to report the score(16) he achieved on his makeup test?

[cthomer5000]

Bucc played the race card out of left field...

...I think Noop over-reactedAgreed on both counts.

[Huckleberry]

I still wonder if the score(6) the first time he took the test will ever be officially reported?

Or, will they just have to report the score(16) he achieved on his makeup test?
This is why Young's PR team is seriously sucking at damage control. He never made a 6. But they have been so crappy at putting out this fire that this belief will be there forever.

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section=7&screen=news&news_id=48119

And while several reporters said they heard the score was correct and that Young had not done any pre-test preparation for the exam before the Combine, NFL spokesman Steve Alic said the rumors are inaccurate.

“I can tell you absolutely that the score that has been reported on the Internet is inaccurate,” Alic said. “I spoke to the person who graded the test, and he assured me that that number was not correct.”Vince Young isn't the smartest guy ever. But he can tie his own shoes.

[IwasHere]

Then why is everyone, both Young's PR and the NFL, hiding his actual first score?

The NFL has announced that Young scored a 16 on his makeup test, so why not just come out and say what he scored on his first test?

[Deattribution]

This is why Young's PR team is seriously sucking at damage control. He never made a 6. But they have been so crappy at putting out this fire that this belief will be there forever.



Other professional athletes represented by Next Level Sports & Entertainment are the Philadelphia Eagles' Michael Lewis, the St. Louis Rams' Joffrey Reynolds, the Washington Redskins' John Simon and the Titans' Jamal Powell. Those four players are from Texas or Louisiana.

With a talented A-list of football superstars like that how can you go wrong with VY's agent?

Aside from Michael Lewis, I've never heard of any of the other guys...ever.

[wade moore]

With a talented A-list of football superstars like that how can you go wrong with VY's agent?

Aside from Michael Lewis, I've never heard of any of the other guys...ever.
I'm a pretty hardcore Redskins fan...

I've never heard of anyone but Michael Lewis on this list either.

[Huckleberry]

Then why is everyone, both Young's PR and the NFL, hiding his actual first score?

The NFL has announced that Young scored a 16 on his makeup test, so why not just come out and say what he scored on his first test?
Did somebody with the NFL say "makeup" test? I haven't seen it if they have.

Either way, somebody that truly scores a 6 on a Wonderlic exam is not mentally capable of scoring a 16 on a Wonderlic exam 12 hours later. Assuming they weren't high or drunk the first time, which is improbable given that he was at the NFL combine. This means there were problems with either the first exam or the second exam. The problem, as I stated, is that the information coming out of VY's management has been non-existent. Once this rumor came out they should have forgotten the supposed confidentiality of the testing and hit back full force. They didn't, so this is the result.

[Franklinnoble]

http://www.accesswave.ca/%7Ethomson/Race%20Card.jpg

[IwasHere]

Did somebody with the NFL say "makeup" test? I haven't seen it if they have.

What would you call it? He scored so low on the first test, he was allowed to retake the test again? "Makeup" test right? That is what my teachers always called it when the Students that had failed the first test were allowed to retake it later.

Retaking the same test again should almost guarantee some improvement in test scores.

[wade moore]

Did somebody with the NFL say "makeup" test? I haven't seen it if they have.

Either way, somebody that truly scores a 6 on a Wonderlic exam is not mentally capable of scoring a 16 on a Wonderlic exam 12 hours later. Assuming they weren't high or drunk the first time, which is improbable given that he was at the NFL combine. This means there were problems with either the first exam or the second exam. The problem, as I stated, is that the information coming out of VY's management has been non-existent. Once this rumor came out they should have forgotten the supposed confidentiality of the testing and hit back full force. They didn't, so this is the result.
The good news for VY is what matters to the NFL Scouts is what really happened, not what gets spread around the internet.

[Huckleberry]

What would you call it? He scored so low on the first test, he was allowed to retake the test again? "Makeup" test right? That is what my teachers always called it when the Students that had failed the first test were allowed to retake it later.

Retaking the same test again should almost guarantee some improvement in test scores.
It's not a makeup if something was screwed up with the first test. Furthermore, I haven't even seen an official NFL person state that he took the test twice. That is simply more rumormill-type stuff. The only official NFL representative I've seen comment on the matter was what I posted above. He stated that the report of Young's having scored a 6 on the test was completely inaccurate.

Not sure how it would be completely inaccurate if he did indeed score a 6.

[Huckleberry]

dola -

It's a real stretch from "some improvement" to a 167% increase in performance in 12 hours, don't you think?

[Deattribution]

I haven't even seen an official NFL person state that he took the test twice. That is simply more rumormill-type stuff.


Young took the test again and scored 16. According to Young's agent, Major Adams, the Sunday test was administered by Jeff Foster, executive director of National Scouting Combine.

I doubt his agent would lie about him taking it again... not like that is flattering statement... Even if his first test was messed up, it's a bad situation to be in as a top pick with 2 other good QBs on your tail.

[IwasHere]

Check out Cartman's link.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3687374.html


Young took the test again and scored 16. According to Young's agent, Major Adams, the Sunday test was administered by Jeff Foster, executive director of National Scouting Combine.



Oops, too late. Anyway...

dola -

It's a real stretch from "some improvement" to a 167% increase in performance in 12 hours, don't you think?
NOT, if you are retaking the exact same freaking test.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe Mr. Shoop helped Vince with his second test.

[Huckleberry]

Stand corrected on the two tests.

NOT, if you are retaking the exact same freaking test.
One would have to be a 6-on-the-Wonderlic caliber moron to think that the NFL would give the exact same freaking test the second time.

[Poli]

http://www.accesswave.ca/%7Ethomson/Race%20Card.jpgImpressive.

[cartman]

Stand corrected on the two tests.


One would have to be a 6-on-the-Wonderlic caliber moron to think that the NFL would give the exact same freaking test the second time.

Even if it was the same test, do you think someone who scored an actual 6 would be able to remember the questions asked and be able to find the correct answers before retaking the test?

[Klinglerware]

Vince Young scored an 840 on his SAT. That's pretty crappy but that score is still less than one standard deviation below the assumed mean of 1000 (SD on each test is about 100). The Wonderlic has a mean of about 22, with an SD of about 7. So (assuming equivalency) scoring a 15 on the Wonderlic is like scoring an 800 Math + Verbal.

I would tend to believe that a 16 is more in line with what Vince Young can be predicted to score on the Wonderlic, based on his SAT scores.

[Solecismic]

Well, let's apply the common sense test.

We know that there was a problem with the entire sixth group of tests at the Combine.

If it were simply a matter of scoring the test, then the tests would have been rescored.

So, there was a problem with the administration of the test. Perhaps the scores were accurate, but the timer only gave them six minutes instead of twelve. That might result in Young scoring a 6, but that would not be a fair score.

Whatever the problem, it was enough to warrant a retest for all of group six. Since there are several variations of the Wonderlic, you'd hope they'd use another version. Why wouldn't they?

If Young scored a 16, it's probably valid. And while a 16 would place him in the bottom 5-10% among NFL quarterbacks, it's miles and miles ahead of a 6. A coach might have to dumb down the playbook for Young, but not by anywhere near the amount he would for someone who isn't literate.

A 6 would place him in an unprecedented range. A 16 isn't great, and people will talk, but it's not going to affect his draft position.

[Crapshoot]

He scored an 840 ? You get 400 points for spelling your name.

[sooner333]

He probably got a 16, but it was more fun to think he got a 6.

I think VY can be a good NFL QB, but he'll probably have to use his athleticism to do well, and not pull a Michael Vick (saying that he wants to be a pocket passer, etc.), because that won't work, just as it isn't for Vick. VY has all the athleticism and size to go with it, but at Texas he simply had a lot of time to throw the football, in the past when he had been pressured he had been forced into very poor decisions...this year he didn't have to deal with it as much. For example, Ou didn't get great pressure on him this year, so he could afford to just wait until his wideouts got separation from the secondary and lob up the ball to them. Sure, I saw him throw bullets later in the season, and that was impressive, however, I'm going to wait and see to judge his real-time, NFL passing abilities where his line can't hold the other team at bay for as long as Texas could (because lets face it, Texas is going to have a dominant OL over most college football teams' DL's and an NFL team won't have the same advantage).

[Klinglerware]

He scored an 840 ? You get 400 points for spelling your name.

But remember, the SAT scoring system was designed to measure performance based on standard deviations around a mean assuming a normal curve. Each test section is designed to result in 500 as the mean, and every 100 points is one standard deviation away from the mean. With these assumptions, you would expect 68% of the test taking population to score between 800 and 1200.

Remember that the universe of test takers is assumed to be normally distributed, so we can think of the "converse" score of Vince Young to be 1160. I would consider an 1160 as good, but not spectacularly good. Likewise, I would consider the 840 as bad, but not spectacularly bad.

[Huckleberry]

For example, Ou didn't get great pressure on him this year, so he could afford to just wait until his wideouts got separation from the secondary and lob up the ball to them.
What Texas/OU game did you watch this year?

First TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Ramonce Taylor on a fade route as the blitzer closes in on him.
Second TD pass: Called rollout to the left where OU leaves Billy Pittman uncovered.
Third TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Billy Pittman on a go route as the blitzer closes in on him.

On the first and third plays the ball left Young's hand probably within 2 seconds of the snap. The rollout play was a standard roll out, set, and release.

It's definitely true that Young wasn't pressured much this year. No doubt. But neither are lots of QBs on good teams (Leinart for example). Young has a lot of work to do on decision-making but I'm just baffled that you used the OU game as an example.

[IwasHere]

Whatever the problem, it was enough to warrant a retest for all of group six. Since there are several variations of the Wonderlic, you'd hope they'd use another version. Why wouldn't they?


Hey Huck, I guess this is what is the Difference between a Re-Test and a MakeUp-Test.

If it had only been 1 or 2 people re-taking the Test I would of blamed Young, but since they had the entire group re-take the test that would mean some type of testing error had occurred.

[Huckleberry]

Agreed.

Jim - Where did you see the info that all of the sixth group retook it or was told to retake it? I've seen that twice now with no cite.

[sooner333]

What Texas/OU game did you watch this year?

First TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Ramonce Taylor on a fade route as the blitzer closes in on him.
Second TD pass: Called rollout to the left where OU leaves Billy Pittman uncovered.
Third TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Billy Pittman on a go route as the blitzer closes in on him.

On the first and third plays the ball left Young's hand probably within 2 seconds of the snap. The rollout play was a standard roll out, set, and release.

It's definitely true that Young wasn't pressured much this year. No doubt. But neither are lots of QBs on good teams (Leinart for example). Young has a lot of work to do on decision-making but I'm just baffled that you used the OU game as an example.

Used OU game as example because they had an inexperienced secondary...I'm not sure if you noticed the second touchdown but it was basically an incredibly blown coverage by Reggie Smith, a true freshman safety (who probably won't even be playing the position anymore). Even when OU could get pressure on teams this year, the main problem was that the secondary wouldn't hold thier ground. Sure, it worked against many teams who couldn't contain a blitz long enough, but Texas OL was strong enough to isolate the secondary long enough.

Also, the other two touchdowns are "Go" and "Fade" routes, basically a lob the ball up to the guy streaking down the field when you are getting pressured. That was very simplisitic, but still holds pretty much true.

And against that poor secondary, only 14-27 passing and only 2.64 yards per carry. On his behalf he didn't throw an interception (unlike previous years vs. the same opponent), but OU wasn't exactly an interception machine this year. This was probably also either the third best defense he faced this year.

[stevew]

Didn't LT score a 5 when he was at the combine? Granted he is a hell of a RB, but that is an impressively low score. Ah, nevermind, it was a 13.

[Crapshoot]

But remember, the SAT scoring system was designed to measure performance based on standard deviations around a mean assuming a normal curve. Each test section is designed to result in 500 as the mean, and every 100 points is one standard deviation away from the mean. With these assumptions, you would expect 68% of the test taking population to score between 800 and 1200.

Remember that the universe of test takers is assumed to be normally distributed, so we can think of the "converse" score of Vince Young to be 1160. I would consider an 1160 as good, but not spectacularly good. Likewise, I would consider the 840 as bad, but not spectacularly bad.

That's a fair point - though I guess I would consider an 1160 to be mediocre, and a 840 to be shocking. A lot of the lower scoring is because of people taking it as a testing benchmark (CTY camps, soforth), but perhaps I'm misinformed.

[Huckleberry]

And against that poor secondary, only 14-27 passing and only 2.64 yards per carry. On his behalf he didn't throw an interception (unlike previous years vs. the same opponent), but OU wasn't exactly an interception machine this year. This was probably also either the third best defense he faced this year.
That's what I was getting at, though. OU got more pressure on Young than anyone other than Ohio State all year long, and they got about the same as the Buckeyes. 3 sacks and all that pressure meant it was feast or famine in the passing game. Only 14-27 but 241 yards, 3 touchdowns, and no interceptions. Averaged over 4 yards per carry if you take out the sacks.

You're 100% right about Young's shortcomings. I was just perplexed at the use of the OU game as an example of having all day to throw, because it was not that way at all.

[rkmsuf]

RE: Wonderlic scores.

Bishop, Michael
1999
Kansas State
10

:(

[sooner333]

You're 100% right about Young's shortcomings. I was just perplexed at the use of the OU game as an example of having all day to throw, because it was not that way at all.

Haha, okay my distinct memories of this year's game are hazy I guess, but I guess my main point was that Texas outclassed OU enough so that their blitz was more ineffective than it usually was. I guess what I should have said was that he had all day to throw most of the time, and even when he didn't Texas was able to protect him enough so that it didn't matter. I also used the OU game because I was most familiar with that game on the top of my head, plus that I didn't want to use a previous year's game because he got a lot better since the previous OU/TX game, or the year before's.

[Swaggs]

That's a fair point - though I guess I would consider an 1160 to be mediocre, and a 840 to be shocking. A lot of the lower scoring is because of people taking it as a testing benchmark (CTY camps, soforth), but perhaps I'm misinformed.

1160 is well above average.

Over the last 10-15 years, among graduating high school seniors, the average SAT score has been consistently in the 1020-1060 range.

[Solecismic]

It does seem there are a lot of contradictions about the Vince Young test. There's no confirmation that the rest of group six was retested, only that Young was. If the test were improperly adminstrated, then the entire group would get a retest.

If the test were improperly scored, it could be rescored without any contribution from Young.

I don't think we're ever going to know what really happened. The Combine will release his score as a 16, and that's all we'll ever have. The person who leaked the 6 score will probably be fired.

[Passacaglia]

With a guy being as high-profile as Young is, I'm sure teams will take a whole lot more stock in talking to him face-to-face, rather than a standardized test.

[Klinglerware]

That's a fair point - though I guess I would consider an 1160 to be mediocre, and a 840 to be shocking. A lot of the lower scoring is because of people taking it as a testing benchmark (CTY camps, soforth), but perhaps I'm misinformed.

Depends on the context--in selective and semi-selective college admissions I would definitely consider an 1160 to be mediocre. Also, some states abnormally bolster their SAT averages by discouraging all but their best students from taking the SAT in favor of the ACT, contributing to the perception of an 1160 being mediocre.

But the test is supposed to be designed to measure the universe of high schoole students with an expected mean of 1000. The true mean is in fact around a 1000 as well. So, an 1160 would be statistically a little above average, although it is within one standard deviation so the score could still be considered rather ordinary...

[Passacaglia]

Depends on the context--in selective and semi-selective college admissions I would definitely consider an 1160 to be mediocre. Also, some states abnormally bolster their SAT averages by discouraging all but their best students from taking the SAT in favor of the ACT, contributing to the perception of an 1160 being mediocre.

But the test is supposed to be designed to measure the universe of high schoole students with an expected mean of 1000. The true mean is in fact around a 1000 as well. So, an 1160 would be statistically a little above average, although it is within one standard deviation so the score could still be considered rather ordinary...

Also, midwestern states tend to have higher averages, because more people take the ACT. So that might alter your perception, Crappy.

[Buccaneer]

Heh. I didn't realize I obviously played a race card with the thought that perhaps the Wonderlic will become less relevant in the future or will have to change somewhat. There will be more and more QBs like VY coming out and you can't let something like this derail a career. That's all.

For what it's worth, I wsa on record for voting Steve Young out of the HOF and would rather see Angie in his place. :)

[cthomer5000]

I don't think anything that goes on at the combine is designed to be the be-all end-all verdict on a guy. I think it's really only to raise red flags or help out guys who deserve a closer look than they've been getting.

So the question here is "just how big a red flag is Young raising?"

[wade moore]

http://www.pvponline.com/archive/2006/pvp20060227.gif.

[RendeR]

While the cartoon is cute Wade, I don't see the correlation to the discussion? Did you have a point?

[wade moore]

While the cartoon is cute Wade, I don't see the correlation to the discussion? Did you have a point?
Ummm...

Did you read the whole thread with the race card being pulled, etc?

[RendeR]

Yes, and I commented that pulling it was ignorant earlier on as well. I was just wondering why you wanted to be an asshat and continue such idiocy? You're not normally the one doing so, so I found it odd.

[wade moore]

Yes, and I commented that pulling it was ignorant earlier on as well. I was just wondering why you wanted to be an asshat and continue such idiocy? You're not normally the one doing so, so I found it odd.
Oh, thaaaaaaaaat's what you mean...

In all honesty, someone sent me the comic today and I didn't feel it deserved it's own thread, but I wanted to share... so I found a thread where it was somewhat relevent.

But you do have a point, I should have let sleeping dog's (not skydogs) lie...

[Cringer]

I don't think anything that goes on at the combine is designed to be the be-all end-all verdict on a guy. I think it's really only to raise red flags or help out guys who deserve a closer look than they've been getting.

So the question here is "just how big a red flag is Young raising?"

http://www.pickens.k12.sc.us/phsteachers/Band/Big%20Red%20Flag.jpg

[NoMyths]

RE: Wonderlic scores.

Bishop, Michael
1999
Kansas State
10

:(And having talked with the guy, I can attest that the score may have even been high. Yeesh.

[Klinglerware]

I don't think anything that goes on at the combine is designed to be the be-all end-all verdict on a guy. I think it's really only to raise red flags or help out guys who deserve a closer look than they've been getting.

So the question here is "just how big a red flag is Young raising?"

Young's representation should raise a red flag. If Vince Young is at fault for anything here, it's his hiring of a family friend to represent him instead of an experieced agency. An agency would have prepared him for the wonderlic. Hell, the agency probably wouldn't have put Young anywhere near the combine to begin with...



KING SAYS VINCE WASN'T READY FOR TEST


On Monday, Peter King of Sports Illustrated told Dan Patrick of ESPN Radio that Texas quarterback Vince Young was completely unprepared for the Wonderlic test at the scouting combine.

King said (and we're paraphrasing) that Young had no idea that he'd be given the 50-question exam.

If so, then shame on agent Major Adams. And shame on Young for not affiliating with an experienced agent who knows that one of the things that happens at Indy is that the kids take the Wonderlic.

We'd previously heard that agent Bus Cook was working behind the scenes with Young, but that Cook wasn't -- and wouldn't be -- front and center because Cook represents Vanderbilt quarterback Jay Cutler. We're now intrigued by the possibility that Cook might have generally clammed up as Cutler has inched toward a possible leapfrog over Young.

Regardless, someone should have had Young at least aware of the 50-question, 12-minute test that he'd be taking. Hell, when he heard the word "Wonderlic," he probably thought they were serving ice cream for lunch.

Bottom line -- Vince, friends are friends but business is business. It's time to cut the cord on Adams, because when someone doesn't know what they don't know, that's the worst kind of dangerous you can have, especially when you're dealing with a process that translates into millions of dollars for every spot that your name remains on the board.

[jeff061]

Right, I had the Wonderlic sprung on me prior to signing up for some classes a few years back, I wasn't expecting any kind of test at all. I did fine.

The first few questions are kindergarten level, you don't exactly get befuddled by the questions right away. At least you shouldn't.

[cartman]

A copy of VY's test has leaked out. Here is the first page with the score:

http://www.thegreatcornholio.com/images/vinceyoungtest.JPG

[cthomer5000]

well done cringer :D

By the way, me and 4 co-workers took a Wonderlic test this afternoon. It's an old copy, that was included in the Paul Zimmerman's "The Thinking Man's Guide To Pro Football." I think most people on this board could literally beat a 6 in under 2 minutes time. The questions start out ridiculously easy and get a little harder or complex as it goes along.

[Klinglerware]

well done cringer :D

By the way, me and 4 co-workers took a Wonderlic test this afternoon. It's an old copy, that was included in the Paul Zimmerman's "The Thinking Man's Guide To Pro Football." I think most people on this board could literally beat a 6 in under 2 minutes time. The questions start out ridiculously easy and get a little harder or complex as it goes along.

Which is why I believe that the test can be drilled. Anyone, including Vince Young, can score reasonably well on the test once they are aware of the key concepts, and strategize based on the format of the test:
- you have a limited time to take the test
- the questions appear in relative order of difficulty
- the questions are of equal value regardless of difficulty

So, in Vince Young's case, I would have him do a diagnostic test or two to determine what a realistic target score would be. Based on his SAT's, I would say that he would probably be targeting a score between 18-24 (tight around the mean). It would make sense for him to pretend that the last 20-25 questions don't exist and just spend most of his time on the first 20 questions and some time on the middle 10 (which are easier than the final 20). A mean score would not be hard to achieve with proper coaching and strategizing, even for people with below average intellects.

[Young Drachma]

I really wonder who the people these kids hire as their agents are. His agent should've prepared him knowing he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Between him and Clarett's lawyer, who seems hellbent on taking any money this kid ever makes for the rest of his life..I have to wonder about these folks.

It just seems crazy to me that this debacle is costing him a few million bucks and they act as if "oh, it'll be fine."

Whatever man.

[stevew]

From espn

Quarterback Vince Young was timed in 4.58 seconds in the 40-yard dash Wednesday on what is considered a fast track at the University of Texas in Austin, one NFL scout told ESPN's Chris Mortensen. The scout said Young's time was slower than anticipated.
According to the same scout, Young's overall workout was "fairly impressive," but the scout believed that Young was not asked to make certain drops and throws that he would have to perform in a private team workout.
Young's pro workout Wednesday, which was open to all NFL teams, was run by Jerry Rhome, a former NFL quarterback and assistant coach.

Young's projected NFL draft position received a major boost after he led Texas to the BCS Championship in January with one of the great all-time individual performances in college football history.

4.58....damn, that kind of sucks.

[Havok]

He's going to be 1 amazing bust. I wonder if the Browns will draft him?

[IMetTrentGreen]

well, for one, 4.6 is fast for someone the size of an olb.

two, its not his straight line speed that makes him special, its his ability to move side to side with no warning, and his instincts.

three, if he bombs in the nfl, its going to be for the same reason micheal vick did last year, some moron coach tries to fit him into some rhythym passing game

running qbs dont drop back and throw in high school or college. they drop, dance around if they have to, and either take off or throw to an open reciever who had time to get free. they aren't drilled in throwing off their last step because, in the pre-nfl stages anyway, its more productive to let a guy create the time he needs. vince is no exception to this. the first thought i had when i read that the falcons were installing the west coast offense was "why?" seems like they made that move just because, because it certainly wasn't with vick in mind

not to say vick or young can't do it. what i am saying is, the nfl is not the place to learn something like that. greg davis has fucked over every qb he's touched here with not making sure they throw the ball before they actually see the reciever come open. chris simms was particularly bad at this

anyway, if he ends up in houston, with kubiak and that denver broncos offense that is perfect for him, then he'll be a great qb. in tennessee or n.o., then i have my doubts. anyone that takes him and tries to make a dropback/west coast qb out of him is the one who should be out of a job when that little experiment fails

[BishopMVP]

hxxp://michiganzone.blogspot.com/2006/03/m-zone-wonderlic-test.html

Another (fake) Wonderlic. There's obviously no way Maurice Clarett runs a sub-4.5 40.

[miami_fan]

Bump for review purposes

[Joker]

Impressive.
SNL 1977
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=530 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=10></TD><TD class=c1 vAlign=top width=510>
Black Perspective

.....Garrett Morris
.....Fran Tarkenton

<CENTER>http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/line.jpg</CENTER>
Garrett Morris: Good evening, and welcome to "Black Perspective". I'm your host, Garrett Morris. Tonight's discussion concerns the black athlete in pro football. And our guest is the legendary quarterback of the Minnesota Vikings, Fran Tarkenton. Welcome, Fran.

Fran Tarkenton: Well, thank you, it's nice to be here.

Garrett Morris: Yeah, Fran. Aside from your fabulous career on the field, you are also a member of the National Football League's committee on race relations.

Fran Tarkenton: Well, that's true, Garrett. I've been the Chairman since 1971.

Garrett Morris: Yeah, you've been quoted as saying that football is really brotherhood in action, man. What did you mean by that?

Fran Tarkenton: Well, you know, a football team is a family, a family unit consisting of 40 men living and working together toward a goal - winning. And it's a family that counts. The only color that exists is the color of a player's jersey.

Garrett Morris: Well, times certainly have changed, Fran. I mean, we've come a long way.

Fran Tarkenton: Yeah, and it's about time, I say.

Garrett Morris: Right on. right on, man. But still, man, even in 1977, you know, some stereotypes still exist, wouldn't you agree?

Fran Tarkenton: Uh, none that I know of.

Garrett Morris: Well, how about the myth that a black man can not make it as a pro quarterback? There are 28 teams in the league, and only three of them have black quarterbacks, and they all sitting on the bench, you know what I mean?

Fran Tarkenton: Uh.. yeah, yeah.

Garrett Morris: Well, for years there's been this myth that a black's mind is not elaborate enough to read defenses. And he can't call audible from the line, and that he has no leadership qualities. Now, you've been, you know, in the league for sixteen years, and you just said that there is no prejudice, right?

Fran Tarkenton: Uh, yes.

Garrett Morris: Then, what about these myths?

Fran Tarkenton: They're absolutely true, Garrett.

Garrett Morris: I must have missed something. What did you say?

Fran Tarkenton: It's not a myth, it's a fact. Every black I know has trouble with area codes, let alone numbers of plays!

Garrett Morris: Wait, wait, wait.. say that again?

Fran Tarkenton: Well, you know, even the black kids in the summer camp I run don't have it. Sure, they can dance in the end zone, they've got the bomes in their feet. But when it comes to leadership, one black quarterback on the forty yard line ends up in the parking lot with a bucket of chicken!

Garrett Morris: Hey, man, I know what you mean! Yeah, that's true! Yeah, I know what you mean!

Fran Tarkenton: And, Garrett, let's face it - try to be objective. If you were on the offensve line, would you turn your back on a black guy standing behind you? Especially during a night game?

Garrett Morris: No, man.. not me. I've got a wife and kids. Uh.. look, man, thank you for clearing that up, man. I've always had a problem about that. And thank you for watching "Black Perspective". Next week, Mark Spitz explains why there are no black swimmers.

[ zoom out ]

[ SUPER: "Coming Up Next: Pornographic money For Cash Freaks" ]

[ fade ]


<CENTER>http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/line.jpg</CENTER><CENTER>SNL Transcripts (http://snltranscripts.jt.org/)</CENTER></TD><TD width=10></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE>

[Galaril]

I know it is early in his NFL career but I think he is in contention for rookie of the year more for his impact on the field as well as with the teammates around him. Maroney for the Pats will still probably get it but VY is winning with avery young team.

[SackAttack]

What about the WR for the Saints? The one who was a 6th or 7th round pick?

[Hammer755]

I know it is early in his NFL career but I think he is in contention for rookie of the year more for his impact on the field as well as with the teammates around him. Maroney for the Pats will still probably get it but VY is winning with avery young team.

I still don't see it. I know football is less about numbers than pretty much any other sport, but VY has a passer rating of under 70 and a Comp% under 50%. The Titans have been winning because of their running game, not because of Young (with the notable exception of the NYG game). I didn't see Trent Dilfer getting any MVP consideration just because the Ravens won a lot of games with him under center.

[Deattribution]

What about the WR for the Saints? The one who was a 6th or 7th round pick?

I honestly thought this was a Reggie Bush joke at first :)

As far as VY's stats, it's quite obvious he's a big part of why they have been winning lately - If he can keep it up through the rest of the season I could see an argument for it but it wouldn't be a travesty either way.

[Galaril]

I honestly thought this was a Reggie Bush joke at first :)

As far as VY's stats, it's quite obvious he's a big part of why they have been winning lately - If he can keep it up through the rest of the season I could see an argument for it but it wouldn't be a travesty either way.

Yeah, I totally forgot about Bush he is most deserving to say the least.

[SackAttack]

I honestly thought this was a Reggie Bush joke at first :)

I can see that. He's been more effective lining up wide so far this season than in the backfield.

But no, Colston has been a very pleasant surprise considering how late he was drafted. Shouldn't that count for something in the discussion?

[Antmeister]

I still don't see it. I know football is less about numbers than pretty much any other sport, but VY has a passer rating of under 70 and a Comp% under 50%. The Titans have been winning because of their running game, not because of Young (with the notable exception of the NYG game). I didn't see Trent Dilfer getting any MVP consideration just because the Ravens won a lot of games with him under center.

A major reason why his quarterback rating is low is because he is on a young inexperienced team. You don't see a number of all-star receivers there compared to what some other young quarterbacks have (ala. Eli Manning, Matt Leinart, etc.).

I don't see him as rookie of the year, but he definitely has been steadily improving. If you watched any of the Indianapolis game, you would realize that he contributed greatly to that win as well on a number of key 3rd downs. They should not have been in that Indianapolis game, but he had done a number of things to keep drives alive.

He even contributed to that running game. It will still be some time, but if he continues as he has, he will be a great quarterback.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Yeah, plus he's lost star #1 receiver David Givens for the season to injury.

[Passacaglia]

I can see that. He's been more effective lining up wide so far this season than in the backfield.

But no, Colston has been a very pleasant surprise considering how late he was drafted. Shouldn't that count for something in the discussion?

I don't think so. Rookie of the year, not surprise of the year.

[Samdari]

Maroney for the Pats will still probably get it but VY is winning with avery young team.

Why on earth would Maroney get it ahead of Addai, if you were going to give it to an RB?

I think Colston was a shoe in 4 weeks ago, but having not played, he'll have a tough time, especially if Addai makes 1000 yards. Unless he comes back and sets the world on fire, I think 4 or 5 guys have moved ahead of him.

And among QBs, why would Vince Young not be clearly behind Leinart?

[Oilers9911]

Why on earth would Maroney get it ahead of Addai, if you were going to give it to an RB?

I think Colston was a shoe in 4 weeks ago, but having not played, he'll have a tough time, especially if Addai makes 1000 yards. Unless he comes back and sets the world on fire, I think 4 or 5 guys have moved ahead of him.

And among QBs, why would Vince Young not be clearly behind Leinart?

Agreed. Leinart has more yards, a better comp pct and a better passer rating than Young. Addai is over 200 yards ahead of Maroney and has 30 catches to go with it as opposed to Maroney's 18.

[wade moore]

Why on earth would Maroney get it ahead of Addai, if you were going to give it to an RB?

I think Colston was a shoe in 4 weeks ago, but having not played, he'll have a tough time, especially if Addai makes 1000 yards. Unless he comes back and sets the world on fire, I think 4 or 5 guys have moved ahead of him.

And among QBs, why would Vince Young not be clearly behind Leinart?

Agreed... I root for Colston because he comes from Hofstra who is in the I-AA conference I follow, but the injury is going to kill his chances. If he kept up his pace for the whole season, he was a lock.. no it's going to be a tough road without 16 games...

[Ksyrup]

What about the WR for the Saints? The one who was a 6th or 7th round pick?

Granted, I haven't seen many of Bush's games, but he seems to be a potential rich man's Larry Centers, but not much of an actual RB. Is that the case so far?

[wade moore]

Granted, I haven't seen many of Bush's games, but he seems to be a potential rich man's Larry Centers, but not much of an actual RB. Is that the case so far?

Everyone seems confused...

Sack is talking about Marques Colston..

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/408644


<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="bg1" align="center"><td>Year</td><td>Team</td><td>G</td><td>GS</td><td>Rec</td><td>Yds</td><td>Avg</td><td>Lg</td><td>TD</td><td>20+</td><td>40+</td><td>1st</td></tr><tr class="bg3" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td align="left">2006</td><td align="left">New Orleans Saints</td><td>10</td><td>9</td><td>54</td><td>869</td><td>16.1</td><td>86</td><td>7</td><td>13</td><td>3</td><td>41</td></tr><tr id="total_CAREER_RECEIVER" class="bg2" align="right" height="15" valign="middle"><td class="bg4" align="left">TOTAL</td><td class="bg4" align="left"> </td><td class="bg4">10</td><td class="bg4">9</td><td class="bg4">54</td><td class="bg4">869</td><td class="bg4">16.1</td><td class="bg4">86</td><td class="bg4">7</td><td class="bg4">13</td><td class="bg4">3</td><td class="bg4">41</td></tr></tbody></table>

[albionmoonlight]

I also don't know if it hurts Colston that the Saints' offense hasn't really missed a beat since he was hurt. That implies that the numbers have more to do with Brees/the system than it does with his ability.

(Though I will say, having watched every Saints game this season, that Colston certainly plays better than any other WR on the team.)

[wade moore]

I also don't know if it hurts Colston that the Saints' offense hasn't really missed a beat since he was hurt. That implies that the numbers have more to do with Brees/the system than it does with his ability.

(Though I will say, having watched every Saints game this season, that Colston certainly plays better than any other WR on the team.)

Fair points - but when comparing him to Addai and Maroney you can say the same thing to an extent.

[cuervo72]

I think Colston was a shoe in

Going QuikSand here, as this one bugs me a bit.

http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/shoe-in.html

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-sho1.htm

[Ksyrup]

Everyone seems confused...

Sack is talking about Marques Colston..

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/408644


<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg1 align=middle><TD>Year</TD><TD>Team</TD><TD>G</TD><TD>GS</TD><TD>Rec</TD><TD>Yds</TD><TD>Avg</TD><TD>Lg</TD><TD>TD</TD><TD>20+</TD><TD>40+</TD><TD>1st</TD></TR><TR class=bg3 vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD align=left>2006</TD><TD align=left>New Orleans Saints</TD><TD>10</TD><TD>9</TD><TD>54</TD><TD>869</TD><TD>16.1</TD><TD>86</TD><TD>7</TD><TD>13</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>41</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 id=total_CAREER_RECEIVER vAlign=center align=right height=15><TD class=bg4 align=left>TOTAL</TD><TD class=bg4 align=left></TD><TD class=bg4>10</TD><TD class=bg4>9</TD><TD class=bg4>54</TD><TD class=bg4>869</TD><TD class=bg4>16.1</TD><TD class=bg4>86</TD><TD class=bg4>7</TD><TD class=bg4>13</TD><TD class=bg4>3</TD><TD class=bg4>41</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


I know. I was reading the thread backwards, saw the joke reference, and responded to the original post that wasn't meant to be about Bush. Sorry for the confusion.

[Hammer755]

A major reason why his quarterback rating is low is because he is on a young inexperienced team. You don't see a number of all-star receivers there compared to what some other young quarterbacks have (ala. Eli Manning, Matt Leinart, etc.).

I don't see him as rookie of the year, but he definitely has been steadily improving. If you watched any of the Indianapolis game, you would realize that he contributed greatly to that win as well on a number of key 3rd downs. They should not have been in that Indianapolis game, but he had done a number of things to keep drives alive.

He even contributed to that running game. It will still be some time, but if he continues as he has, he will be a great quarterback.

I guess I just don't see the improvement. Yes, he's had a couple of really good games this year, but he has also been wildly inconsistent, which is to be expected from a rookie quarterback.

Here are his passer ratings by game since he took over the starting spot. These obviously don't include his rushing numbers, which have an impact on his value for sure, but I don't see how they point to Young being anything more than just another rookie QB.
DAL - 47.3
IND - 34.4
WAS - 85.6
HOU - 87.4
JAX - 30.2
BAL - 63.9
PHI - 66.7
NYG - 107.9
IND - 72.6

[Warhammer]

The big thing with Young though, and believe me, it pains me to say this, is that he wins. This is a team that was terrible last year with Steve McNair at QB. With many of the same players, Vince Young has led this team to a number of wins. The main reason is he has been able to avoid pressure that would have been sacks of McNair last year.

Yes, his stats haven't been stellar, but he has won more than Leinart has. How many games has Leinart won? What's more important, stellar stats or winning?

[JPhillips]

Hammer: You don't see improvement? How about three of his first five games he was below 50 and in his last four games he's been above 63.

Or, his average in the first five games was 56.98. In the last four its 77.77.

It may not be stellar play, but that's a lot of improvement.

[Samdari]

This is a team that was terrible last year with Steve McNair at QB. With many of the same players, Vince Young has led this team to a number of wins. The main reason is he has been able to avoid pressure that would have been sacks of McNair last year.

McNair was sacked 20 times in 14 starts.

Young has been sacked 14 times in 8 starts.

His passing stats are far worse than McNair's last year too. The Titans are winning now because they are running the ball much better and playing much better defense than they did last year. It is certainly not in any way due to improved QB play.

[rkmsuf]

The only revelation I can see is that Young doesn't flat out stink. That's something I guess.

Beyond that I can't see how anything else can be determined so far.

[cartman]

It's kind of funny. His pro career is starting out a bit like his college career. His freshman season, people were claiming the Longhorns were winning in spite of him being QB. His passing was awful, and his throwing motion was a liability.

I agree that his stats so far this season are not stellar. But if you watch him play, the Titan players are fully on-board with him as their QB. He is the undisputed leader of his team. When he makes a rookie mistake, like the the INT yesterday at the goal line, the team rallies around him, and helps him shake it off. What do they do on their next drive? Go 95 yards for a TD.

[Samdari]

But if you watch him play, the Titan players are fully on-board with him as their QB. He is the undisputed leader of his team.


Are you somehow claiming that this was not the case with McNair? Somehow Young has rallied players around him like one of the 5 most respected players in the league was unable to do?

Seriously, take off the orange colored glasses and look at what is really happening is Tennessee - vastly improved play along both lines, if you were really interested.

[cartman]

Are you somehow claiming that this was not the case with McNair? Somehow Young has rallied players around him like one of the 5 most respected players in the league was unable to do?

Seriously, take off the orange colored glasses and look at what is really happening is Tennessee - vastly improved play along both lines, if you were really interested.

Where did I say that McNair didn't have the full support of his team while he was in Tennessee???

The fact of the matter is that McNair was gone before the start of the season. If anything, that is something that Young had to overcome, the upheaval at the QB position. He was 3rd on the depth charts coming out of training camp, due to the Collins signing. That ended up greatly disrupting team chemistry, led to Volek being traded, and Young getting the starting nod. Based on all of that, it is impressive that he has been able to convincingly get his teammates to rally around him. Orange tinted glasses or not.

[Atocep]

I was a big Vince Young hater when he was at Texas and going into the draft. I thought he was aweful as a sophmore and although he was excellent as a junior he had an offense built to mask his weaknesses.

With that being said, he's impressed me somewhat at the pro level. I wouldn't say he's been good by any means, but what seperates him from Vick at the same age is his willingness to stay in the pocket. I don't know if its from the coaching by Norm Chow or VY just matured as a QB, but he has a better shot at being consistent in the NFL than Vick.

Where he does need to improve (and that goes for every mobile QB entering the NFL) is his accuracy. To have any sort of success in today's NFL you need to be completing around 58%-60% of your passes. He's got a long way to go there but he appears to be willing to work on his passing and accept the offense he's given which gives him an edge on Vick.

[cschex]

I was a big Vince Young hater when he was at Texas and going into the draft. I thought he was aweful as a sophmore and although he was excellent as a junior he had an offense built to mask his weaknesses.


I don't understand this statement. at all. Wouldn't you want to have an offnese built to maximize your QB's - the person who has the ball in his hands on every offensive possession - strengths and minimize his weaknesses? How does that make him a bad quarterback? The Titans are doing a similar thing to what the Horns did - give Vince some freedom to make plays with his legs and arm, and have a good running game to compliment. You can't really argue with the results. UT won a national championship and the Titans are 5-4 (2 of those losses by one point) since Young took over as a starter. Kerry Collins would no doubt have better passing stats if he was still the starter, but if you honestly believe they would have 5 wins with Collins at the helm, then you haven't watched all of the Titans games this year. (They broadcast them all in Austin, unsurprisingly). However, I agree to your point about Vick. To me, the difference is that Young has never considered himself BIGGER than the offense, even if he was providing the majority of it. He has always been good about getting the running game going and trying to spread the ball around. Vick seems to try and do everything himself and doesn't seem to have the demeanor of a good leader. That is why I've never doubted Young will be successful in the NFL.

[Samdari]

Where did I say that McNair didn't have the full support of his team while he was in Tennessee???

You clearly stated that it was because of Young replacing McNair that the Titans were winning more games. Your first guess, that Young was avoiding more sacks, was proven to be wrong, so you played the "intangibles" card. Problem with that is that he replaced one of the better leaders/teammates in the league. The Titans have not gotten better in that regard.

They are winning more games despite the switch from McNair to Young not because of it.

And I am not a Young hater. He has impressed me, and has definitely been getting better since he started. But to suggest improvement at QB is the reason why they are winning is ludicrous, since their QB play is demonstrably worse. They are getting vastly improved play on both lines, and thus winning more. Vince Young is having a decent rookie season and looks like he'll have a fine career. Just stop calling him the catalyst behind their winning more this year.

[Atocep]

I don't understand this statement. at all. Wouldn't you want to have an offnese built to maximize your QB's - the person who has the ball in his hands on every offensive possession - strengths and minimize his weaknesses? How does that make him a bad quarterback? The Titans are doing a similar thing to what the Horns did - give Vince some freedom to make plays with his legs and arm, and have a good running game to compliment. You can't really argue with the results. UT won a national championship and the Titans are 5-4 (2 of those losses by one point) since Young took over as a starter. Kerry Collins would no doubt have better passing stats if he was still the starter, but if you honestly believe they would have 5 wins with Collins at the helm, then you haven't watched all of the Titans games this year. (They broadcast them all in Austin, unsurprisingly). However, I agree to your point about Vick. To me, the difference is that Young has never considered himself BIGGER than the offense, even if he was providing the majority of it. He has always been good about getting the running game going and trying to spread the ball around. Vick seems to try and do everything himself and doesn't seem to have the demeanor of a good leader. That is why I've never doubted Young will be successful in the NFL.

My point there was it made it hard to project him as a pro. You didn't know if he was still as bad as he was as a sophmore, just in a Vince Young friendly offense. You definitely want an offense to maximize his talents, but the spread offense he ran as a junior made it difficult to really get a read on him.

[cartman]

You clearly stated that it was because of Young replacing McNair that the Titans were winning more games. Your first guess, that Young was avoiding more sacks, was proven to be wrong, so you played the "intangibles" card. Problem with that is that he replaced one of the better leaders/teammates in the league. The Titans have not gotten better in that regard.

They are winning more games despite the switch from McNair to Young not because of it.

And I am not a Young hater. He has impressed me, and has definitely been getting better since he started. But to suggest improvement at QB is the reason why they are winning is ludicrous, since their QB play is demonstrably worse. They are getting vastly improved play on both lines, and thus winning more. Vince Young is having a decent rookie season and looks like he'll have a fine career. Just stop calling him the catalyst behind their winning more this year.

You have me confused with someone else. I never said that they were winning more games because they replaced McNair with Young. I never said Young was avoiding more sacks. Please point out the quote where I said either of those things. I was hoping that McNair would stay at Tennessee so that he could mentor Young in person. Make sure you are slamming the right person before slamming them.

In any event, as I did state in my earlier post, Young wasn't the one that was supposed to replace McNair, at least this season. That job was supposed to go to Volek. But because he struggled in preseason, and they didn't think Young was ready yet, they brought in Collins. Collins didn't pan out either, so Young got the nod. That's a pretty chaotic QB situation for anyone to step into, much less a rookie.

[Daimyo]

Maroney for the Pats will still probably get it but VY is winning with avery young team.

Wow... Maroney??? Seriously?
<table><tr><td>Player</td><td>Att</td><td>Yds</td><td>YPC</td><td>TD</td></tr><tr><td>Maroney</td><td>155</td><td>624</td><td>4.0</td><td>4</td></tr><tr><td>Addai</td><td>171</td><td>845</td><td>4.9</td><td>7</td></tr></table>

[rkmsuf]

Wow... Maroney??? Seriously?
<table><tr><td>Player</td><td>Att</td><td>Yds</td><td>YPC</td><td>TD</td></tr><tr><td>Maroney</td><td>155</td><td>624</td><td>4.0</td><td>4</td></tr><tr><td>Addai</td><td>171</td><td>845</td><td>4.9</td><td>7</td></tr></table>

Early conventional wisdom was maroney but he's slowed down and addai has picked it up of late.

One thing in Maroney's favor if it's at all close is he is/was leading the league in kickoff returns.

[Samdari]

You have me confused with someone else.

Yup

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Agreed. Addai has really stepped it up and has surpassed Maroney. We'll have to see how the last 4 games pan out; now that both should be getting the bulk of the carries as the number one guy.

[IMetTrentGreen]

yeah, the titans just started running the ball better when vince went in for no reason. yeah, their offensive line suddenly looks a ton better.

just like at texas in 04.

just like at madison high school in 99.

sure, just a coincidence.

idiots.

ps - that dallas ol sure started playing better when romo went in, didn't they!

[Pumpy Tudors]

I hope that I don't get so, so, so very angry over football one day that I end up ripping the shift keys right out of my keyboard.

[Blade6119]

yeah, the titans just started running the ball better when vince went in for no reason. yeah, their offensive line suddenly looks a ton better.

just like at texas in 04.

just like at madison high school in 99.

sure, just a coincidence.

idiots.

ps - that dallas ol sure started playing better when romo went in, didn't they!
I actually think it has more to do with his reputation then talents...sure, hes good...but defenses suddenly are worried about him scrambling on every play, so the defense hesitates just that second...and that second is all it takes for the o-line to gain momentum, or the RB the hole. Corners and safeties are keeping their eyes on the QB always ready to pounce...that allows the WRs better looks.

Id say thats why they play better, not just beacuse of him.

As for romo, i think its much like Derek Anderson in clevelan. Does anyone think anderson is better? Not really, but the team lost faith is the previous. Now when the new guy comes in, they play harder since they feel they have a better chance to achieve victory.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Huh? Have you seen some of the passes Romo has completed?? Drew Bledsoe never in a million years hits Whitten perfectly down the field for 40 yards in the last minute while rolling to his left under pressure and throwing across his body. Never in a million years.

[Blade6119]

Huh? Have you seen some of the passes Romo has completed?? Drew Bledsoe never in a million years hits Whitten perfectly down the field for 40 yards in the last minute while rolling to his left under pressure and throwing across his body. Never in a million years.

Bledsoe is old, back in his prime he was pretty good...i think Romo will cool down as the season wraps up, but thats just me.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Yes, he was. And he never would have made that pass in his entire career. He's was never mobile enough. Don't get me wrong. I always loved Bledsoe. But sometimes, some QBs are just better and their intangibles raise the level of play of their teammates not the other way around. That's all I'm saying.

[st.cronin]

Vince Young has already exceeded my expectations. And Tony Romo - that guy is going to be a star for a long time. Drew Bledsoe must be the all time king of mentors.

[Wolfpack]

Drew Bledsoe must be the all time king of mentors.

Much to his chagrin, I'm sure.

[st.cronin]

That's an idea for FOF 2009 ... the rare uber-mentor, who, every time he gets benched, his replacement instantly turns into a hall of famer, regardless of what kind of scrub he was before.

Shoot, even JP Loseman is having a solid season.

[mtolson]

If I were selecting, I would have to go with Joseph Addai. Colson would be a very close second but him not playing recently is hurting him. Bush is kind of disappointing, but I think in the long run he will be OK. It seems like he is trying to hard at times. Vince Young has been a suprise, but I still don't think is actual all that good.

Defense, I would have to A.J. Hawk pretty high up on the list as well.

[mtolson]

If I were selecting, I would have to go with Joseph Addai. Colson would be a very close second but him not playing recently is hurting him. Bush is kind of disappointing, but I think in the long run he will be OK. It seems like he is trying to hard at times. Vince Young has been a suprise, but I still don't think is actual all that good.

Defense, I would have to A.J. Hawk pretty high up on the list as well.

[Hammer755]

If I were selecting, I would have to go with Joseph Addai. Colson would be a very close second but him not playing recently is hurting him. Bush is kind of disappointing, but I think in the long run he will be OK. It seems like he is trying to hard at times. Vince Young has been a suprise, but I still don't think is actual all that good.

Defense, I would have to A.J. Hawk pretty high up on the list as well.

DeMeco Ryans has to be the front-runner for Defensive ROY at this point. He's a rookie playing MLB, leads the NFL in solo tackles by a pretty good margin, and is second in total tackles. His peripherals are also either tied with or better than Hawk's.

[DeToxRox]

I'd say Ernie Sims is ahead of AJ Hawk. Ernie has been there for the Lions every week and has been awesome every game.

[DeToxRox]

Dola - I stand corrected. Hawk has turned it up and has more tackles then Sims now. I didn't think he'd caught up.

[IMetTrentGreen]

I actually think it has more to do with his reputation then talents...sure, hes good...but defenses suddenly are worried about him scrambling on every play, so the defense hesitates just that second...and that second is all it takes for the o-line to gain momentum, or the RB the hole. Corners and safeties are keeping their eyes on the QB always ready to pounce...that allows the WRs better looks.

Id say thats why they play better, not just beacuse of him.

so . . . you say the defense is worried about him . . . you say they change what they do because of him . . . but then you say it's not because of him?

good post.

[Blade6119]

so . . . you say the defense is worried about him . . . you say they change what they do because of him . . . but then you say it's not because of him?

good post.
They change what they do becuase of his reputation. I havent seen him warrant that change yet, but it doesnt change the fact the defenses gameplan around it.

Good post:rolleyes:

[IMetTrentGreen]

also, 7 of his 9 runs against indy went for first downs, i think 6 of them were on third down.

plain and simple, they don't win if he's not in there.

the kid hasn't even figured out how to react to what he's seeing in the passing game yet (at a high, nfl level i mean) and he's already beating the best team in the league, and bringing his team back in the 4th.

yeah, the defense is playing better, it's not only vince, but damn, give him some credit.

[Huckleberry]

The Titans RBs averaged 2.9 yards per rush with Collins as the starting QB. They are averaging 4.5 yards per rush with Young as the starting QB.

The Longhorns RBs averaged 5.8 yards per carry with Vince Young as the starting QB last year. They are averaging 4.6 yards per carry this year. They returned both main RBs and three OL that got All-Conference or All-America pub.

There's a trend here, and I'm not just talking about the amazing ability some people have to watch a football game and not realize the impact of limited backside pursuit on an NFL running attack. You guys are right, the hesitation by the backside DE and LB on nearly every Titans running play while they verify Young doesn't have the ball has nothing to do with the Titans' running success.

To be frank, you have to be a football moron to think that the Titans would be 5-7 if they had kept starting Kerry Collins. And that is essentially the argument.

[IMetTrentGreen]

They change what they do becuase of his reputation. I havent seen him warrant that change yet, but it doesnt change the fact the defenses gameplan around it.

oh, i see. they watch hours of tape, ignore it, and go with what they heard about him. ok. you are putting on a master class here, i'm having trouble keeping up, sorry.

[st.cronin]

Vince Young is certainly an attractive man. But he's no Tom Brady.

[bryce]

VY is just a leader and a winner, plain and simple. He just knows how to get it done and steps up in crucial situations. He's always going to have his skeptics, be it for his throwing motion or whatever else, but you can't argue with results, and the kid just wins - he's done it at every level.

Granted, the wins with the Titans aren't quite the grand scale as he was used to in college or high school - YET. There's not a heckuva lot of talent around him in Tennessee, yet he's winning them ballgames. I'd argue Leinart has a lot more talent around him in Arizona, and he's not winning nearly as much as VY. Some players just get everyone else to play better for him and WITH him, on BOTH sides of the ball - VY is one of those players.

edited for typo

[Warhammer]

You clearly stated that it was because of Young replacing McNair that the Titans were winning more games. Your first guess, that Young was avoiding more sacks, was proven to be wrong, so you played the "intangibles" card. Problem with that is that he replaced one of the better leaders/teammates in the league. The Titans have not gotten better in that regard.

They are winning more games despite the switch from McNair to Young not because of it.

And I am not a Young hater. He has impressed me, and has definitely been getting better since he started. But to suggest improvement at QB is the reason why they are winning is ludicrous, since their QB play is demonstrably worse. They are getting vastly improved play on both lines, and thus winning more. Vince Young is having a decent rookie season and looks like he'll have a fine career. Just stop calling him the catalyst behind their winning more this year.

That was me that said McNair got sacked more. Seeing the stats, I'm surprised it was that little. There was a reason why the Titans let McNair go. He was not the same McNair they had in 2000-2003. The games I watched last year, McNair was taking sacks and getting hit far more than he did previously, and he had lost a step when he scrambled.

This year, the offensive line isn't all that much better as you have shown in how many times Young has been sacked. But, Young has been able to buy time for himself to make passes that McNair was making early in his career, but not now. (Note: I am not saying McNair is bad, just that he can't throw on the run as he used to) Young hasn't put up stellar numbers, but he hasn't killed the Titans either. Plus, he has shown the ability to lead the Titans on scoring drives when it came to crunch time. Just look at their last two games.