What planet is France on?

[Buccaneer]

I don't know but after reading the news about the latest riots in France, I just wonder whether they are on the same planet as the rest of us. Do other countries of EU and Europe have similar labor rules? If so, what's Frances' problem but if not, can't we just deport to another planet or something?

[ISiddiqui]

IIRC, the law allows France to fire young people in the first 2 years on the job without reason, while everyone else gets protections. Its blatently discriminatory. I can't blame young people for getting pissed.

[Dutch]

IIRC, the law allows France to fire young people in the first 2 years on the job without reason, while everyone else gets protections. Its blatently discriminatory. I can't blame young people for getting pissed.

What about old people in the first 2 years on the job?

[Glengoyne]

What about old people in the first 2 years on the job?

I guess old people's jobs are protected to the degree that they wouldn't be entering the workforce in a new position. They can't be fired already...and if you can't be fired, why would anyone quit?

My understanding is that the proponents of the law are claiming that it will help younger workers find jobs. Admittedly while making those jobs less reliable. Two years seems like a stretch, but then again I don't know how difficult it is now to fire someone after 90 days.

[Franklinnoble]

Remulak?

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have a very basic understanding of some of this. In Belgium and France (and probably some other European countries) it's incredibly hard to fire people. You have to fuck pretty seriously in oder to get fired. If not, it's just not worth the hassel and money to fire people. So people have a lot of job security.

Typically, people are initially hired on a 6 month trial basis. This gives employers the opportunity to see if they want to hire the person. If the employee is a fuck up the company just doesn't hire them at the end of the trial period. It's a clean break. But once someone is hired as a permanent employee, the rules change pretty drastically.

We had secretaries and legal assistants at the firm I worked at in Belgium who were absolutely useless. Not just useless, but actually a detriment to the job. They could do little and the little they could do they'd often mess up. But still, they lingered and lingered... it was really hard to fire them. I don't know the specifics as to why, but it was made pretty clear.

I think the Under 26 cut off is a bit of a joke. I can see where the French youths are pissed about that. Basically, I think they should institute this law for people of any age. It'd be a step in the right direction, I think.

I am sure there are more nuissances than this. Well, then again, maybe there aren't. The French people love to riot and march and protest. A few years ago while Lady H_B was living in France, the homeless people went strike to protest a law that cut their wellfare or some such.

It's what they do.

[ISiddiqui]

I think the Under 26 cut off is a bit of a joke. I can see where the French youths are pissed about that. Basically, I think they should institute this law for people of any age. It'd be a step in the right direction, I think.

Yeah, I'd imagine we'd see much less protesting if it was universally applicable instead of just against young people. It's blatantly discriminatory against young people, and I know something like that in the US would piss me off to no end (even though I'm turning 26 in a month and a half).

[Solecismic]

When I was at IBM, the company was not doing well, and Louis Gerstner was hired as CEO to make changes.

He decided to close the offices in France, because they were completely unproductive. About two months later, management realized it was impossible to close that division, because French labor laws essentially meant they'd have to provide for the laid-off workers for such a long time that it would be cheaper to keep the offices open and just let them play all day (which is apparently what they were doing, from what I heard from a couple of people in my department who spent a year there on an assignment).

So he made the cuts in America instead, including eliminating the product I was working on. Which is, more or less, what made Solecismic Software possible. I received excellent training straight out of college from a world-class group of programmers, and then a very profitable layoff. I then moved to Seattle, where I met my lovely wife a year later.

All thanks to French labor laws. I owe the socialists big-time. But I'd hate to see those laws in our economy. They have double-digit unemployment in France, and apparently if you're young and from a poor neighborhood, it's close to 50% unemployment because there's just zero incentive to hire anyone given these laws.

The 26-and-under idea, I agree, is utterly ridiculous. That's what they come up with because they don't have our society's focus on equality. And that's why the Muslim immigrants aren't vested in their society one bit, the way they are here.

But we're kidding ourselves if we think we're entirely out of the woods. At some point, Social Security will break under its own weight. Right about when the last Baby Boomer hits 65.

[AlexB]

As an Englishman I'm not supposed to say this, but I admire the French when it comes to public reaction to laws/working practices.

We English find out EU membership takes away our sovereignty and ability to define our own laws, mumble and grumble, say how poor it is, but essentially just moan and then follow the new rules. Or we make a point before they come in and try and change it in advance, but we do generally follow whatever rule/law is brought in after a good moan.

The French have the right idea - they just say yeah, whatever to EU laws, and if they don't like them, they just ignore the rules and carry on as before. However, if they really don't like something, and there is no way of ignoring it, the protests they pull out are impressive - truck drivers, dockers, now students: the French know how to protest, and more importantly when to protest.

We English can learn a lot from them.

[WVUFAN]

The French live on Planet Froggie. I hear it's very nice there this time of the year.

[Havok]

If your looking at a flat map of the universe, France is the little ity bity useless planet on the far left side of the map.

[MIJB#19]

The same planet where person A in country B pays 1,000 times for a shoe that person C in country D gets for making that shoe.

The same planet where one war seeking leader of a country is put in court for mass murder and another isn't.

The same planet where 10% of the population in some country votes on a dead person because they feel sorry for him to die.

The same planet where some people eat dogs and find cow-eaters sinners while others eat cows and find dog-eaters sinners.

There's so much more to add, but I have no willingness to come up with more.

[Ksyrup]

So basically, it's like having private enterprise with workers as motivated as those who work for the government? Yikes!

[Buccaneer]

Basically, I think they should institute this law for people of any age. It'd be a step in the right direction, I think.


I think that was my reaction as well. There shouldn't be any labor laws like these in the first place and they wonder why unemployement and other labor issues mar their country? Are they too stubborn ot learn from other countries?

[FrogMan]

The French live on Planet Froggie. I hear it's very nice there this time of the year.

hey, don't you say anything bad about Planet Froggie. It's a nice place to live indeed. :mad:

:D

FM

[GrantDawg]

Are they too stubborn ot learn from other countries?


Yup, much like us.

[Dutch]

Yup, much like us.

Close, but not actually the "Blame Bush!" post I'm looking for to win the bet. :)

[GrantDawg]

Close, but not actually the "Blame Bush!" post I'm looking for to win the bet. :)


This isn't a "Blame Bush" thing. I think we Americans are every bit as arrogant as France. It is the pot calling the kettle black.

[Crapshoot]

This isn't a "Blame Bush" thing. I think we Americans are every bit as arrogant as France. It is the pot calling the kettle black.

Its Dutch - expecting an intelligent response is asking for too much.

[Passacaglia]

Earth.

[Crapshoot]

On topic, the main problem with the French labor system is that it sets up a perverse incentive system, where a company will not hire unless its sure an economic upswing is there for good - which conversley lowers the chance of such an upswing, since consumer spending is stifled. The rigidity of the system does lend itself to problems.

Overall, the French system has its plusses and minuses - on the one hand, you have people who make no effort to seek work living of the public trough, but on the other hand, the income disparity is nowhere near what it is here, and you don't have quite the same poverty at the lower end. Its a different model - take it for what its worth.

[Buccaneer]

On topic, the main problem with the French labor system is that it sets up a perverse incentive system, where a company will not hire unless its sure an economic upswing is there for good - which conversley lowers the chance of such an upswing, since consumer spending is stifled. The rigidity of the system does lend itself to problems.

Overall, the French system has its plusses and minuses - on the one hand, you have people who make no effort to seek work living of the public trough, but on the other hand, the income disparity is nowhere near what it is here, and you don't have quite the same poverty at the lower end. Its a different model - take it for what its worth.

From my understanding, they have quite the problem on the lower end - 50+% unemployement among youths on the lower end.

How does this compare to UK and Germany?

[pompey]

UK has very low unemployment - somthing like 2%. Basically, if you want a job you can get one just as long as you are happy to do manual labour / supermarket jobs.

[Logan]

UK has very low unemployment - somthing like 2%. Basically, if you want a job you can get one just as long as you are happy to do manual labour / supermarket jobs.

Sounds pretty much the same as America. Except the statistic.

[Dutch]

Its Dutch - expecting an intelligent response is asking for too much.

Fuck you, ya dumb whore.

[GrantDawg]

Fuck you, ya dumb whore.


You kiss your mother with that mouth?

[pompey]

yeah, but in the UK we have a fairly decent minimum wage (instigated by Blair) that makes these jobs worthwhile for many. Thatcher destroyed the trade union power and Blair introduced a reasonable centre-left social reform so we have a nice balance at the moment. Of course, we also pay a s*&t load of taxes compared to the US to be in such a position.

[Dutch]

You kiss your mother with that mouth?

Good one.

[Crapshoot]

From my understanding, they have quite the problem on the lower end - 50+% unemployement among youths on the lower end.

How does this compare to UK and Germany?

The UK labor market is far more flexible than the French one - think of it as a compromise between the American one (allowing, something closer if not at-will employment) and the French system (a fairly generous safety net system) - perhaps one of our British colleagues can clarify this. The Germans are up there with the French in the classic European system, albeit with perhaps a little more flexibility.

And yeah, unemployment is a significant problem - at national levels, its around 10% or whereabouts. In one sense, the problem with this is its the first step in taking on the state workers who are guarenteed their jobs pretty much for life - Villepin needs baby steps to get there. Anytime you attempt to change the market wholeheartedly, some will have to sacrifice before the others - but eventually, the reforms will need to reach there. I'm pretty firmly on the side of the at-will employment model, but the French are trying to change to preserve (strange as it sounds) a socialistic state perspective that has served their needs well, even as the world around them makes it so much harder. At some level, I can sympathize with that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I guess old people's jobs are protected to the degree that they wouldn't be entering the workforce in a new position.

And what planet is that on?

They can't be fired already...and if you can't be fired, why would anyone quit?

Or is the situation really THAT different in France/Europe/wherever than in the U.S.? (clarifying: different with regard to the now common instability in employment that has the average U.S. worker changing employers pretty often over their working years)

[Franklinnoble]

Remulak?



...




Nothing? Nothing at all?

[Shkspr]

Nothing? Nothing at all?

Dude. Dan Ackroyd's been dead for five years now. Let it go.