PING: SI, Havoc, ppl like that :)

[Hobbes-]

Now I am currently entering the next stage of my plan to dominate the world! I mean.. training plan, etc.

So this week I finally was able to do two things:
1. Promote from IV.19 after 10 seasons!
2. Finish off PM'ing training

I now am making a switch to defense training and have purchased 7 of 9/10 trainees.

My current starters are:
Keep: 16k
Def(trainees): 12d,11d,11d,10d
Wing: 16w/15pm
Mids: 16+9pm/9pass,16pm/10pass,16pm/9pass
Strike: 14sc/10pass,14sc/8pass

Right now my team is set to run a 4-4-2. My new III.15 series seems to be filled with midfield trainers or high midfield teams (110-135 hatstats in mid). I should have about 4mil in cash after I purchase my last 2 trainees and was considering one of three options:
1. Buy an extra striker (to run a 3-4-3 when appropriate)
2. Buy an extra winger (to run a 3-5-2 when approriate)
3. Sit on the cash for a few weeks until I determine if I need to make a move or not.

I suppose if I collected enough money, I could do both but I wasn't sure which would be better. Is this basically preference? I'm thinking the extra striker may be favored because of the ability to sub for 2 guys instead of just 1. My current #3 striker is a$$ and my current #4 middie could easily sub in as a winger so this seems to make the striker buy even more appealing.

Havok, I know you suggested that I sell my high passing midfielders before. Do you think things have turned out better for me than you originally imagined or do you think that would still be ideal? My idea is to keep the 16+9 to be a future coach anyway, so there is really no need to train him the extra week to pop. I suppose I could sell the xIM 16pm/9pass NonAmerica (the other two are USA) and make a decent coin off that but would that limit my flexibility and central attack?

SI, my wages should be about 400k +-. Seems to be more than we were both hoping to put together teams with, but still low enough that I wouldn't be near the top in wages. I'm not sure I could cut wage costs in any area without giving up a large amt. of skill.

Others, I'm always open to suggestions/feedback/discussion regarding the economics part of HT and wages and such. I just know that Havok and SI like this stuff :)

-Hobbes

Oh and who will be going to Chicago? My plane ticket has been booked!

Just another thing I've noticed lately that brxnivy also said he noticed. When you promote into II or III it seems like the teams aren't as good as what you originally thought the division was supposed to be. Maybe that's because my IV was so difficult or just because promoting up past IV is harder than sticking around with a little luck.

EDIT: My strikers are 14, not 13 (fixed). Also I was just thinking maybe I should try and find a titanic/excellent striker somewhere or ET/excellent striker.. that could improve attack

[Hobbes-]

If people want, we can broadin this idea and suggest ways to "get ahead". For example:
- lower wages
- more secondaries
- maximizing skill per position
- etc

[KevinNU7]

Just another thing I've noticed lately that brxnivy also said he noticed. When you promote into II or III it seems like the teams aren't as good as what you originally thought the division was supposed to be. Maybe that's because my IV was so difficult or just because promoting up past IV is harder than sticking around with a little luck.
Word. I jsut won the IV8 (3rd toughest in IV) and I have to play a qualfier in to get into the #6 III, I was looking and I think I could be competivie for Top 4 immediately (assuming I promote on the road with lowish TS)

[Havok]

overall i like your team Hobbes.... you've done well. The passing training was the best thing you could have done. Im still working on mine and will be done in a season and a half. Im also gonna be buying a divine goalie here anyday now, so when its all said and done, i should have divine ratings(or utopian) just about everywhere.... we'll see :)

The only problem that i see with your team is.... well....... midfield! Now i know your thinking "i have 3 ET middies, Havok's an idoit!". Trust me when i say, it ain't enough. (unless your one of the lucky few who always have 3 middies in soild form, im not one of those lucky few).

Now if you were running a 3-5-2 with those middies, your uber winger and a WTM, you would rock. But in a 4-4-2 with 1 winger missing and the other offensive, your midfield is gonna be lower then you think. Actually, your midfield will be just about the same as SI's. Now thats still dam good and SI won his/our divison and all, but he also has a great defense and got some amazing breaks to do it. But its certainly not Div. II quality(and i think thats what we're talking about right?).

Now if i were you i would only train 8 guys and run a 3-5-2 with a WTM in league games. Its the best formation in HT for a reason. That way even road games you will be able to pull nice midfield ratings, probally magical with a normal and a magical at home with a pic. That 1 extra trainee sounds great, but whats more important to you? Winning and maybe making it to Div. II over the next few seasons? or winning but staying in div. III for the next few seasons and making an extra 2 million over 3 1/2 - 4 seasons?

I gotta go with option 1, for me personally im never happy staying put. I REALLY REALLY thought i had our divison won this season and i would have made a real push to go to Div. II. With a utopian/divine goalie(which im shopping for now), i could survive there no problem. But the bad luck bug kicked me in the nuts again(all season long actually) like usual and i got second place.

Anyway, i've rambled on again :) Thats what i would do, screw the 4-4-2, 3-5-2 for teh win!

[Hobbes-]

Havok, you're training short passes correct? What do you project your mids/strikers/wingers passing level to be at in 1.5 seasons when you're done with the training? Also, you think you'll be able to afford this divine keeper or do you need to shop for an older one that can slowly TURN affordable?

As far as that WTM you suggested. What level PM'ing do you think he should be? Titanic/ET?

I see what you're saying though and I suppose you're mostly right. Ideally I would get another Uber Winger and run both offensive. But those are not only hard to find, but cost 8+ mil.

I'm sure I'll notice a small dropoff in midfield level and much higher D stats than I need using a 4-4-2 so I can see your point. I guess I was hoping to survive a little with the 4-4-2 and then switch accordingly. My approach as of lately has been that I need to move up when I have the opportunity because my highly trained front/middle will become too old if I sit around and pick my nose. Eventually, I may also need to pull the trigger with either a Keeper or Striker whos wages cancel out my training profits or at least part of them.

[Havok]

Havok, you're training short passes correct? What do you project your mids/strikers/wingers passing level to be at in 1.5 seasons when you're done with the training?

When im done, i should have a ET forward with outstanding passing(or close), a SN forward with brillant passing(or close). Now my middy's won't be all that great since they all started at weak passing. Hopfully i'll have 2 Mythical middy's with solid passing and one ET middy with excellent passing who i'll probally sell since he's not american and find a american mythical with so sort of passing.

That should be enough to get me a divine central attack with my forwards wages only being 65k a week, pulling a mythical in passable form now.


Also, you think you'll be able to afford this divine keeper or do you need to shop for an older one that can slowly TURN affordable?

Yeah, shouldn't be a problem. My wages right now are 370K, probally 380K at the to start next season. So with a utopian/divine american keeper it will probally be 430-440k. Thats managable.


As far as that WTM you suggested. What level PM'ing do you think he should be? Titanic/ET?

I'd honestly find a WC pm with no passing since it means nothing for a WTM. Make SURE he is quick, that will net ya 2-4 goals a season easy. Anything higher then WC and your wages are gonna start to hurt.

I see what you're saying though and I suppose you're mostly right. Ideally I would get another Uber Winger and run both offensive. But those are not only hard to find, but cost 8+ mil.

2 uber wingers would be great, but its not economical at all.

I'm sure I'll notice a small dropoff in midfield level and much higher D stats than I need using a 4-4-2 so I can see your point. I guess I was hoping to survive a little with the 4-4-2 and then switch accordingly. My approach as of lately has been that I need to move up when I have the opportunity because my highly trained front/middle will become too old if I sit around and pick my nose. Eventually, I may also need to pull the trigger with either a Keeper or Striker whos wages cancel out my training profits or at least part of them.

Nothing is set in stone either, you might walk thru your divison next season in a 4-4-2. Who knows, there are some weakass divison III's out there. But very rarly does a 4-4-2 team make it up to Div. II.

I agree with your assessment about going to Div. II. When your at the level we are at, having the best team in your divison doesn't mean you'll win it and promote. So many other factors are involved, so when/if i get a chance for Div. II, im going for it.

Also, i don't think you need a striker at all, your pulling a divine attack with cheap ass wages. A goalie would be better, A magical USA goalie is only like 65k a week in wages i think, that ain't shit considering what he brings to the table.

[MrBigglesworth]

Now if i were you i would only train 8 guys and run a 3-5-2 with a WTM in league games.
Why train defense if you are only going to train 8 peopl?

[Havok]

Why train defense if you are only going to train 8 peopl?


alot of guys do it, alot of higher level teams only train 6 defenders during the cup and 8 after the cup. Take a look around div. II.

Midfielders are hard to train at higher levels since it kills your cup runs.

Forwards are ok, but the 3-4-3 is inferior to the 3-5-2 unless you want unbelieveably high wages.

Goaltending sucks... period.

Wingers are good, solid money and overall, wingers are probally the 2nd least important players on the field(minus 40 billion dollar uber wingers) behind defenders. So even if you have some young wingers playing in your cup games, as long as your kickass middies, forwards, and goalie are on the field, you should beat weaker teams easy. Plus wingers train fast as hell so if you plan it right, you won't have any real week wingers during your important cup games.

Defenders are good for higher levels also, if you have a good goalie, who cares how weak your defenders are, you'll still get a respectable defense in cup games. Plus you have your starting middies, forwards and wingers on the field also. The profit won't be that great, but when your that high its not all about profit anymore, its about staying up and winning.

So Hobbes can train 8 defenders for the first 3-4 weeks. Then 6 defenders when his cup games get a bit harder, then back to 8 when he's out of the cup.

[Masked]

Why train defense if you are only going to train 8 peopl?

Because otherwise you turn a 2nd place team into one facing a qualifier to stay in div III. Not that I would know...

[sterlingice]

Thoughts at first blush:
1) Extra guys are cute, but, really, how many formations are you going to be able to keep up at a decent rate. Probably 2- your training formation and your "serious" promotion. That other money is just being thrown away as it could be spent improving "key" positions rather than "just in case".
2) That's not to say you shouldn't have "ok" backups- Havok and I constantly muse at a couple of teams in our series who have miserable backups. Why in the world, if you have a $30M roster, can't you afford a couple hundred K each to get a backup formidable with good experience at def, midfield, striker, and keeper (well, the 3 you aren't training)? That way when you have an injury, you aren't throwing in the passable pm'ing towel boy.

Ok, to the other points, Havok's right- I've got Titan/ET/ET midfield with my wc/wc winger and I'm looking to upgrade. I've even started kicking around the idea of running a 3-5-2 in series because my midfield is kindof low. If not for all the 3-4-3's in series, I'd be toast a lot more often.

SI

[Hobbes-]

Okay, I see the points on the 3-5-2 and getting a WC (or close to) guy to play WTM..

I currently have this player:

Chris Pratt (48452681) http://www51.hattrick.org/common/images/icons/interface/bookmarks.gif (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/bookmarks.asp?actionType=AddConfirm&BookmarkTypeID=2&ObjectID=48452681) 21 years, passable (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skillshort&ll=6#skillshort) form, healthy A nasty fellow (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=gentleness&ll=0#gentleness) who is temperamental (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=aggressiveness&ll=3#aggressiveness) and honest (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=honesty&ll=2#honesty).
Has wretched (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=2#skill) experience and inadequate (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skillshort&ll=5#skillshort) leadership abilities.

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nationality: </td> <td>http://www51.hattrick.org/common/images/8flag.gif USA (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/menu.asp?action=changeLeagueSystem&leagueSystemID=8) </td> </tr> <tr> <td nowrap="nowrap">Total Skill Index (TSI): </td> <td>28 230</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Wage: </td> <td> 3 880 US$/week </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Owner: </td> <td> Fockers (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/teamDetails.asp?teamID=71987)Matches (http://www51.hattrick.org/Common/matches.asp?actionType=view&TeamID=71987)
Players (http://www51.hattrick.org/Common/players.asp?TeamID=71987)
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Warnings: </td> <td> 0 </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Injuries: </td> <td> Healthy </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr> <td>Stamina: </td><td>solid (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=7#skill) </td> <td> Goalkeeping: </td><td>disastrous (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=1#skill) </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Playmaking: </td><td>brilliant (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=11#skill) </td> <td> Passing: </td><td>formidable (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=9#skill) </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Winger: </td><td>inadequate (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=5#skill) </td> <td> Defending: </td><td>inadequate (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=5#skill) </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring: </td><td>wretched (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=2#skill) </td> <td> Set Pieces: </td><td>weak (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=4#skill) </td></tr></tbody></table>
He's brilliant+6 or something. I can look when I get home from work.

I found a player like this:

Matthew Hooks (34296921) http://www51.hattrick.org/common/images/icons/interface/bookmarks.gif (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/bookmarks.asp?actionType=AddConfirm&BookmarkTypeID=2&ObjectID=34296921) 23 years, solid (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skillshort&ll=7#skillshort) form, healthy A pleasant guy (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=gentleness&ll=2#gentleness) who is balanced (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=aggressiveness&ll=2#aggressiveness) and honest (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=honesty&ll=2#honesty).
Has weak (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=4#skill) experience and poor (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skillshort&ll=3#skillshort) leadership abilities.

Speciality: Quick

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Nationality: </td> <td>http://www51.hattrick.org/common/images/8flag.gif USA (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/menu.asp?action=changeLeagueSystem&leagueSystemID=8) </td> </tr> <tr> <td nowrap="nowrap">Total Skill Index (TSI): </td> <td>38 860</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Wage: </td> <td> 8 808 US$/week including 20% Bonus </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Owner: </td> <td> Mlekadzije (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/teamDetails.asp?teamID=273268)Matches (http://www51.hattrick.org/Common/matches.asp?actionType=view&TeamID=273268)
Players (http://www51.hattrick.org/Common/players.asp?TeamID=273268)
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Warnings: </td> <td> 0 </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Injuries: </td> <td> Healthy </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr> <td>Stamina: </td><td>excellent (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=8#skill) </td> <td> Goalkeeping: </td><td>disastrous (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=1#skill) </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Playmaking: </td><td>world class (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=13#skill) </td> <td> Passing: </td><td>solid (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=7#skill) </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Winger: </td><td>poor (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=3#skill) </td> <td> Defending: </td><td>passable (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=6#skill) </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring: </td><td>weak (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=4#skill) </td> <td> Set Pieces: </td><td>weak (http://www51.hattrick.org/common/gameRules.asp?find=labels&lt=skill&ll=4#skill) </td></tr></tbody></table>
Selling for 3.2.. no bids. Another guy is at 3.0 with similar stats but no passing or defending. I was thinking it was worth 200k for that on resale if nothing else. Also, he could be the #9 defense trainee as an OCD if I had a week or two where I had a spot. Pratt could also be the WTM guy or will he not contribute enough? Should I sell Pratt or just hold onto him as a #10 trainee/wing sub/midfield sub?

I have 5.6mil with 7 trainees. So it's not like I'm pressed for cash right now. The 8th trainee would cost under a mil (I wanted a formidable defender). The guy sells this afternoon.

I'm thinking of buying the guy and keeping Pratt as a nice replacement. I mean eventually I could have the 2nd guy at OCD and Pratt at WTM right?

[Havok]

im sort of a cheap skate... so i personaly wouldn't buy Hooks. I'd find a WC guy with the quick skill and nothing else for what.... 2.7 - 2.8 maybe?? Been awhile since i looked. Doesn't need to be american either since the 20% bonus will only equal an extra 4k-5k a week, which is nothing at our level.

I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a guy you train at the OCD spot sometimes... but that guy will be 24 next week. Thats like what.... 12-14 weeks to level up? If your lucky you'll level him up once over the next few seasons. And honestly, in a few seasons he's gonna lose his resale value because of age anyway, that 1 extra level of defense will add very little.

But again, its your call. He is a nice player and if you lose a middy for a few weeks he can step in and do a great job. Always nice to have a very good back-up middy.