Administrative boards and drug use

[Poli]

Yesterday, I was at an administrative board. I was requested as a character witness for a sailor that lives in my barracks. The sailor had tested positive for drugs (cocaine, I think, though honestly I've tried to avoid knowing the full story) in January, and has been trying to fight the Navy's policy of Zero Tolerance. Zero means everyone who pops positive for drugs is discharged, though I've seen sailors who somehow got around it.

The setting was very much like a courtroom, with three board members instead of one judge. The sailor had his own legal counsel and Navy counsel as well, while the Navy had a legal chief petty officer presenting their case.

Obviously, being a character witness I was asked about my own background and how I knew the sailor. The cross examination was simple, asking if I was with the sailor when he took the drugs. Uhh, no.

The judges then asked me a few questions. Did I know him very well before the incident. Not really. I was then asked a hypothetical question.

Seaman Schmuckatelli just came up to you and told you he was afraid he may have somehow taken drugs. Would you counsel him? Sure, I'd talk to him, but I'd let him know he had to turn himself in, or I'd have to.

That lit up the legal chief. She wanted to know if I fully understood the duties of a petty officer and my responsibilities to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Sure I do. I have to report it.

Why would I wait to let the sailor do it himself? So he could have the opportunity to do the right thing. If he didn't, I would.

The question was rephrased. How about if the sailor was someone who worked for me, and was, in my opinion, a good sailor? I said I'd hate to do it, but I would have to.

I really didn't see where the line of questioning was coming from, though I found out later. One of the other witnesses said he wouldn't turn in a sailor that had confided in him about drug use.

My question is, if you were in my shoes, would you turn in a sailor that admitted to drug use?

To me, I have to say I give him a chance to do the right thing, but I would turn him in. It's the rules. I'm just as wrong if I let the sailor slide by.

By the way, the board's decision was 2-1 against keeping the sailor in the Navy.

[Mustang]

My question is, if you were in my shoes, would you turn in a sailor that admitted to drug use?


What's his job? If it could in any way endanger others, yes, you turn him in.

If he is pushing papers, you give him the opportunity first.

[Franklinnoble]

You did the right thing. The military doesn't function if it allows gray areas in the enforcement of discipline.

[Poli]

One of the puzzling parts of this story is that the sailor denies taking the drug knowingly, ala Bonds.

He even took a lie detector test, which confirmed his story.

[vex]

I was sure this had something to do with Skydog and his drug use.:p

[Wolfpack]

If it's cocaine, that's a helluva jedi mind trick he pulled then in terms of convincing others he didn't knowingly do it. It isn't like you spoon cocaine into your coffee instead of sugar by accident....

[Mustang]

If it's cocaine, that's a helluva jedi mind trick he pulled then in terms of convincing others he didn't knowingly do it. It isn't like you spoon cocaine into your coffee instead of sugar by accident....

Could have got really drunk one night and just doesn't remember it.

[Desnudo]

If it's cocaine, that's a helluva jedi mind trick he pulled then in terms of convincing others he didn't knowingly do it. It isn't like you spoon cocaine into your coffee instead of sugar by accident....

Maybe he thought he was injecting heroin and it turned out to be coke. ;)

[duckman]

I agree with your way of handling of the line of questioning. Give the guy a chance to do the right thing, but turn him in if he didn't go through with it.

[QuikSand]

Parody thread opportunity!

[JonInMiddleGA]

My question is, if you were in my shoes, would you turn in a sailor that admitted to drug use?

IIRC, you're under oath to do exactly that, so I'm amazed that there's even a question about it. (Okay, "amazed" is probably the wrong word, hardly anything surprises me these days, maybe "bewildered" would be better).

Now THIS on the other hand ...
One of the other witnesses said he wouldn't turn in a sailor that had confided in him about drug use.

The stupidity of saying that to a trio of people who even might be in a position to torpedo your career ... that does border on amazing.

[flere-imsaho]

The military doesn't function if it allows gray areas in the enforcement of discipline.

Ha ha.

[JS19]

I agree with what you did, give him the opportunity or do it yourself. I don't know if this was all rumors or actually legit, but from stories i've heard is that if you are discharged due to drugs, something like 6 months or so afterwards you can put in some type of paperwork which will eventually make it an honorable discharge. Ever heard of something like this?

[duckman]

Ha ha.

He's right to a degree.

[flere-imsaho]

He's right to a degree.

I agree, the theory is absolutely correct. In practice, however, the military operates somewhat differently.

[Franklinnoble]

I agree, the theory is absolutely correct. In practice, however, the military operates somewhat differently.

A breakdown in discipline is how things like Abu Gharib happen... which you liberals are so happy to shout about... so, make up your damned mind already.

[duckman]

I agree, the theory is absolutely correct. In practice, however, the military operates somewhat differently.

It's subjective. Some people think the military is too soft on our troops while others think they are not strict enough. One thing is certain during my time in is that it got a whole lot stricter when "the shit hits the fan" (i.e. conflicts, inspections, etc.). Of course, the Air Force is never viewed as the most disciplined bunch. :D

[flere-imsaho]

so, make up your damned mind already.

I did, quite clearly. Basic english eludes you again I see.

[stevew]

My question is, if you were in my shoes, would you turn in a sailor that admitted to drug use?

Hell yeah, no point in you getting in trouble if you weren't doing it.

[flere-imsaho]

It's subjective.

You bet.

One thing is certain during my time in is that it got a whole lot stricter when "the shit hits the fan" (i.e. conflicts, inspections, etc.).

Maybe, maybe not. Look, the military's a huge organization, and like any huge organization, I don't think it's realistic for every member of that organization to follow all the rules of that organization strictly every single minute of every single day. Mistakes, lapses, etc... will happen. Obviously given the potential disastrous consequences of these mistakes in the military (as opposed to other large organizations), it behooves them to try and keep these to a minimum.

To contend, however that "the military doesn't function if it allows gray areas in the enforcement of discipline" seems a bit hard to substantiate. Clearly the military right now allows gray areas in the enforcement of discipline. That's how we got Abu Gharaib (and that particular gray area came from Rumsfeld himself, when he started mucking about with the Geneva Conventions), a lot of it shows up with Pat Tillman, and you talk to almost any soldier currently serving over there and they'll tell you the same thing. So, are the armed forces currently "not functioning"?

[Poli]

The sailor has now requested to see the commanding officer, but the admin board was his last chance. I suspect he'll be out of the Navy in a week or two.

I suppose the best I can do is offer to be a reference for him. He did very good work for me while he was waiting for the results of this problem.

[Poli]

We actually got into discussion about this at work today...a lot of my coworkers were not happy with me for going to the admin board as a character witness.

Based on my experience with the sailor, I went. I wasn't basing my opinions of him by what others said about him. In the end, I told my chief that I'm going to do the right thing, and it's a shame more people don't.