CIV4 Pitboss game --- gauging interest

[Runtheball]

I'm considering starting a pitboss game for Civ4 this weekend.
For those that have never played Civ4 via Pitboss, its very simple. You don't need to have Pitboss installed. You just select Multiplayer, then Direct IP, then enter my IP address and the game name and password, then take your turn. I can provide more info as needed if you're unsure of how it works.

Here are some specifics of how the game will be run:

- Online/realtime for the first hour (concurrent turns with all players online at the start of the game). This should allow us to take multiple turns at the start of the game (when there is only 1 unit for each player to move anyway). We should be able to take the first 25 to 35 turns within that hour and get the game well underway before the turn clock starts.

- After the initial hour of concurrent play (by then we should have a few units to move and more decisions to make) we'll switch to an 18-hour turn clock.

- settings will be "standard" map size, fractal map, temperate, medium sea level, ancient start. I'm thinking about having one computer civ and as many human civs as we can get.

- Tentative start time will be 7:00 PM EST friday June 23rd.

If you're interested and available this friday at 7:00 PM EST, then respond with your preferred civ and leader. I'll provide connection info to everyone by email or PM.

[Franklinnoble]

Can't do 7:00 PM EST, or I'd be all over that.

[JeeberD]

I would, but I'll be out of town this weekend...

[saldana]

Can't do 7:00 PM EST, or I'd be all over that.
ditto, still at work until 10

[Yossarian]

what time is that UK side?
just now its 18.21 - what time is it just now in EST?

[JeeberD]

EST is 1:24 pm...

[Runtheball]

what time is that UK side?
just now its 18.21 - what time is it just now in EST?

Looks like you're 5 hours ahead of EST

[Bisbo]

Never tried this before, but I'm game.

[WVUFAN]

If you make that Sunday or Monday as a start, I'm in. I'm working on Friday, though.

The big problem with this is the difficulty in getting everyone in the same place at the same time for the amount of time it would take to do 23 to 30 turns. One of the good things about Pitboss is that we all don't need to be on at the same time -- when you do your turn is up to your own schedule.

[Franklinnoble]

I could do late night just about any night. Weekends might work.

If you wanna have an hour or two online, the best way might be to have it late at night...

[Runtheball]

There's no concensus here about when to start. I imagined that would be very difficult to arrange, but frankly thought there would be more interest. Since WVUFan has mentioned this idea in another thread, I thought I'd bump this thread for those interested in this type of game.

I still feel that we're likely to maximize the number of people that can play by starting on a weeknight. Obviously 7:00 PM EST is too early. Perhaps 10 EST would work better for some of the folks farther west?

Express your interest and suggestions for starting times and dates here, and we'll see where it leads.

[Yossarian]

i'll play if I can do the 'initial surge' - i'm not able to say when i'm free for an hour or two just now so plan it without me and if there's a gap and I can do it, i'll play.

[spleen1015]

I can play if it is after 9pm EST on any night.

[Franklinnoble]

Needs to be later than 8:00 pacific. Or on a weekend. Maybe.

[Vince]

I'd be up for it, but I work at night (and am on the West coast), so finding a time when everyone else is available will be down that 'impossible' path.

[Runtheball]

I'd be up for it, but I work at night (and am on the West coast), so finding a time when everyone else is available will be down that 'impossible' path.

Do you work Sunday night?

[Runtheball]

So far it looks like the following could play for an hour or so at approximately 10:00 pm EST on either Saturday or Sunday:
Bisbo
Franklinnoble
WVUfan
Spleen1015
Sharon
and me, so that's 6. If Yossarian is crazy enough to stay up till 4 a.m. that'd be 7. I'm hoping for 8 or more.

[Franklinnoble]

So far it looks like the following could play for an hour or so at approximately 10:00 pm EST on either Saturday or Sunday:
Bisbo
Franklinnoble
WVUfan
Spleen1015
and me, so that's 5. If Yossarian is crazy enough to stay up till 4 a.m. that'd be 6, and if Vince has Sunday nights off that'd be 7. I'd want at least 8 and preferrably 10. No maximum here, but we'd be pretty lucky to get more than 8.

FYI... Sharon's interested in playing, too.

[Vince]

Do you work Sunday night?

Yeah. I typically work Thursday-Monday (all nights), and have Tuesday and Wednesday off.

[Runtheball]

deleted. See post below.

[Runtheball]

I've created a test game; it's up now. If someone could log-in to the game, take a turn, log out, then log back in after about an hour or more and then post here to let me know if you were able to successfully log onto the game both times. PM me for the IP address and password.

If this works, I'd be up for a Saturday night kick-off.

[Runtheball]

As you might expect, coordinating everyone's availability is a challenge. But the feedback I'm receiving is pointing to one of two possible start times for the game: Saturday (the 8th) at either 1:00 PM EST or at 10:30 PM EST.

We would play online for one hour, but it might take another half hour to get everyone together and advance from turn 1 to turn 2 (what with stragglers and the potential for connectivity issues.

If anyone is interested but unavailable at the start time, I believe I could reserve their civ and leader, and let the AI run things for them until they can connect. If anyone is willing to adopt an AI civ, let me know and I'll try to reserve it for you.

[Franklinnoble]

I'll take Kublai Khan.

Sharon would like Catherine.

I think the 10:30 PM EST time would be better... but we might be able to do the 1:00 as well.

[JeeberD]

Ah, crap...the times I was giving you was Central. I doubt I would be able to make 1030EST...

[spleen1015]

I'm in at 10:30.

1 is bad for me.

I don't need to be any special civ. Can I just pick one when I join the game?

[Runtheball]

OK, I got more committments for the Saturday 10:30 PM EST time, so that's our start.

There is still room for others to join. In fact I'm going to use at least 4 computer players to save room for anyone that wants to join after Saturday night. (If no one takes over the computer AI civs by Monday night, I can kick them from the game if that's what the other players want).

Bisbo will determine our exact start time: he says he will be ready between 10:30 and 11:00. I'd like to get everyone logged-in at 10:30 so we can resolve any issues and be ready to go as soon as Bisbo logs-in.

If there are any other requests for specific civs or rulers, get them to me soon.

I'll provide the IP in this thread on Saturday. Game name will be CivEarth. Password "fofc"

[Yossarian]

For the hard of thinking, what is 10.30 est in uk time? it's 16:15 right now for me.

[Runtheball]

You're 5 hours ahead of us in EST. It's 11:15 here.
Game would start at 3:30 in the morning for you.

[Yossarian]

well, i'll make it a day-call. If I'm out Saturday, I might be stumbing home at that time.

[Runtheball]

That's the spirit!
:-)

[JeeberD]

If I get out early I'll be there, but it's not likely...

[Bisbo]

Bisbo will determine our exact start time: he says he will be ready between 10:30 and 11:00. I'd like to get everyone logged-in at 10:30 so we can resolve any issues and be ready to go as soon as Bisbo logs-in.

I will do my best to be home in time to log on at 10:30.

[Runtheball]

Just a reminder that this game will start Saturday night at 10:30PM Eastern time. I'll post here when the game is up and running, and will then provide the IP address and a summary of how to get connected.

Lots of space available in this game. See above for details.

[Runtheball]

The game is up and running! We will not begin playing until 10:30 PM EST (possibly a bit later as Bisbo warned me he might not be online until a little after 10:30). But you can log-in now, select your civ, and take your first turn. We'll all be online together for about an hour, and should be able to finish at least 25 or 30 turns in that amount of time (I suspect it may be 40 or more).

Please make sure you have the latest patch (1.61) installed.

Here is the info to get you into the game:
- Start Civ4
- Select Multiplayer
- Select Direct IP
- Under the "Join Game" area, enter my network IP address 24.98.171.207
- Enter the password fofc
When you select your ruler, know that FranklinNoble has requested Kublai Khan, and Sharon has requested Catherine, and Yossarian has requested Mansu Musa. The other civs have not been reserved by anyone.

That should get you into the game. I will have this thread open while I'm waiting for the game to start, and even after the game has started, so message me here if you have any questions or if you can't get in. I may be away from the computer for short periods, but will check back frequently.

Also note that I've decided on Large map, as we may have as many as 9 civs. I'd prefer standard, but the manual suggests that standard is only good for up to 8 civs. I've also decided against Fractal map, as I believe that gives a random map setup, and we don't want something like islands or archipelago. I've decided to use Continents instead.

[Runtheball]

having a little trouble configuring civstats. It'll be up in a few minutes.
(edit: OK, it's ready now. Everything looks OK).

[spleen1015]

I am unable to connect.

"The connection attempt to the host has timed out."

This is my first time ever doing this so I am wondering if there is something I haven't done. I know for sure I am running version 1.61. Other than that, is there any requirements? I believe I have my firewall open so that I can connect.

[spleen1015]

I have tried from 2 different computers with no luck.

[Runtheball]

Please double check the IP address and try again.
I have zonealarm, and I'm pretty sure that it is not blocking anyone.
Do you by chance know what your IP address is? If you tell me that, I might be able to note if zonealarm actually is blocking you, but I doubt it.

[spleen1015]

I have made sure that I am entering the right IP.

192.168.1.103 is my IP.

[Runtheball]

That is not your true IP address. I can't explain this well, but that address is behind your firewall, not the one that actually connects to the internet. Wish I could explain it better. I'll try to find someone here that can give a clear explanation and help you configure the router/firewall so you can play.

[Yossarian]

I'm just back from being out.

tried to connct

no luck .

I hosted a game earlier - no probs. but it timed out connecting to yours

[Yossarian]

my ip is
86.16.111.204

it is my 'true' ip because my bro could connect into it today

[Yossarian]

you can probably get your ip by going to http://www.whatismyip.com/

[spleen1015]

My IP is 74.132.165.174

[Yossarian]

re: 192.168.1.103 not being your real ip

the way it works is your 'house' has one internet connection via cable or whatever.

the ip address that you have on 'the internet' is owned by your router

inside your own network, each pc gets a local ip address that means nothing to the real internet but seperates all your 'internal network' machines.

anything htat starts 192.168 is a local ip address that isn't on the real intenret

[spleen1015]

Is there any configuring I need to do to my router in order to play?

[Runtheball]

Hmmmmm. Well I don't think it's zonealarm. Zonealarm records the source IP of any blocked connections, and it isn't listing yours Yossarian. Also I'm sure I've listed the right IP address for myself. Not sure what to check next.

Thinking....
Thinking....

[Yossarian]

@spleen
probably not - you usually only need to configure for letting people into your network

86.16.111.204 is my address, try a direct connection there (no pass)

[Runtheball]

My IP is 74.132.165.174

Now we're getting somewhere. Zonealarm DID block that IP address.

OK, give me a few more minutes to find out WHY

[Yossarian]

runtheball - have you checked windows firewall isn't on?

[Runtheball]

runtheball - have you checked windows firewall isn't on?
I know nothing about windows firewall. But since zonealarm DID block Spleen at least once, I'm guessing that's the problem. I'm looking into zonealarm, but in case it is windows firewall, what do I do about that?

[Yossarian]

look in your control panel for Windows Firewall

You don't need to run both windows firewall AND zonealarm (and heck, if you're behind a router, you don't need to run either but that's another story)

[WVUFAN]

With ZoneAlarm and if you have a router, you have to open the port Civ4 uses for Pitboss. I don't use Windows Firewall, so I'm not sure how that works.

But make sure you have port 2056 open in your router and your firewalls.

[Runtheball]

I dont have a router.
I think I've given zonealarm more permission, so if someone could try to connect again....

[Runtheball]

Windows firewall is off (has always been off apparently)

[Yossarian]

timed out for me

[Yossarian]

make sure the port you are opening is UDP not TCP

[spleen1015]

Yossarian, timed out trying to get to you too.

[Yossarian]

i closed mine to get to his try now (and leave a message if you do get in)

[Runtheball]

Whatismyipaddress.com says my IP is 24.98.171.207,
but zonealarm says it's 24.98.171.0

Its worth a try

[spleen1015]

Do we need to use the 2056 port to connect as well?

[Runtheball]

Eric, can you connect to me?

[WVUFAN]

Runtheball: a few questions:

what version of ZoneAlarm do you have? Free or Bought?
Do you have Civ4 on it's list of accepted programs?

[Runtheball]

2056 sounds like the port that was blocked when you tried to connect

[WVUFAN]

Eric, can you connect to me?

I'm at work, and don't have access to Civ4 from my work laptop.

[Runtheball]

Runtheball: a few questions:

what version of ZoneAlarm do you have? Free or Bought?
Do you have Civ4 on it's list of accepted programs?

Its zonealarm Antivirus. Bought.
List of programs actually has two entries for civ4, both entries have green checks for all but the "send mail" category

[Runtheball]

IM wondering if it's pitboss that is being blocked, but I don't see pitboss on the list of programs in ZA

[Yossarian]

I can help 'prove' whether or not your IP address is what you think it is but you'd need to have an open tcp/ip port for me

[WVUFAN]

Do you have security settings set to "High"? If so, set it to "Medium"
Then go to your security settings and open up 2056 to UDP. But from my limited experience, Pitboss and Zonealarm hate each other.

Everyone else -- you should not have to have that port open to access his game.

[Yossarian]

also, this page here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=149874

shows a list of ports to open

[WVUFAN]

also, this page here

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=149874

shows a list of ports to open

Good list, although most are used for Gamespy access. Couldn't hurt to open those ports, though.

[Runtheball]

Security is set to Medium. I dont know how or where to open ports. I've never done that and thought it could only be done if you have a router.

[Yossarian]

zonealarm blocks all ports coming in.

how to open ports:
http://nh3.nohold.net/noHoldCust25/Prod_1/Articles55646/OpenBlockPorts.html

[Runtheball]

I found the answer.
try to reconnect

Internet zone security was set to High (now its medium)
Program control was set to Medium, and that's what I was looking at when Eric asked if the security was set to high or medium. Ok, so I'm a dope.

Eric, did you ever know that you're my heeeeeroooooo?

[spleen1015]

I got in!

[WVUFAN]

:p

Good stuff.

[Franklinnoble]

24.98.171.207 works for me. :D

[spleen1015]

Should the first turn be played already?

[spleen1015]

Someone tell me how to chat, please. :)

[WVUFAN]

Press TAB and the chat window pops up.

[spleen1015]

Guys, look at my start...

hxxp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/spleen1015/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

[spleen1015]

My second civ's start...

hxxp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i225/spleen1015/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

[Runtheball]

Sharon still having trouble connecting. Like our first game. How did we resolve that?

[WVUFAN]

I reset the game, if I remember correctly.

[Franklinnoble]

Tell Bisbo we're gonna wait two minutes and let him try again.

[Runtheball]

Bisbo is on

[Franklinnoble]

I can't connect to Bisbo, either.

[Franklinnoble]

I still think there's something wacky with his config... he's not liking our IP's.

[Runtheball]

Bisbo is offering to leave the game.....

[Runtheball]

I still think there's something wacky with his config... he's not liking our IP's.
I'm far from a network expert, but he's liking everyone elses config, and you and sharon are on the same router (?)

[WVUFAN]

The first game's issue wasn't with Franklin or Sharon's connection it turned out -- the game was popping out of sync. It was happenstance that she was on when it happened. Usually by saving, then resetting Pitboss, it fixes the sync errors.

[Franklinnoble]

We're both using 66.81.170.34 as our IP because we're both on the same router... Wonder if that's pissing him off...

[WVUFAN]

dola -- FWIW, I was part of another attempt at a Pitboss accellerated game this morning that ended in disaster. It might be an issue with Pitboss and how it's designed, and not with anyone's connection.

[Franklinnoble]

Yes, but with everyone but Bisbo connected, we both connect fine

[Franklinnoble]

And spleen connected and re-connected twice with both of us on

[Runtheball]

and bisbo was on during one of spleens reconnects...
Hey, its a mystery, but I'm resetting pitboss so lets all give it 5 mintues and try again.

[Runtheball]

going to do a full shutdown of my system too

[Runtheball]

try again

[Franklinnoble]

Sharon is on, but I can't connect to Bisbo

[Franklinnoble]

REstarting Civ...

[Franklinnoble]

Screw it. I'll just drop out. This is too much of a pain in the ass.

[Runtheball]

The game is (finally) going at full speed (has been for about 40 minutes now). We're in 2000 BC already!
Unfortunately, Franklin's router and Bisbo's router do not seem to get along.

[Runtheball]

Played alot more than one hour online. We're past 1000 AD now. Probably not too appealing to join in at this point if you missed the 'accelerated' start. But we may do this again soon.

[Franklinnoble]

I dunno.... I think taking the Germans would be a good consolation prize... even though they're an AI civ, they're in first place at the moment...

[Franklinnoble]

Waiting for Bisbo...

[Runtheball]

Bisbo said he was going to wait for the next game, since we're so far along in this one. Maybe someone else adopted his civ? I'll check, and if I can't ID the owner I'll set it to AI (but it was on AI last night, not sure how else it would have changed.)
[Edit: looks like he may have logged in this morning to have a look at his civ...didn't take a turn...logged out. But that reset his civ to human control. Since his last message to me was that he would not rejoin this game, I'll reset his civ to AI. Bisbo, if you want back in just let me know...that would be no problem at all.]

[Franklinnoble]

I'm really starting to get antsy being stuck on this island alone. I know I'm lagging in the tech race at this point. Must get a caravel in the water...

[Runtheball]

If I had a galleon, I'd send it to you so you could bring your army over and help me fight the Egyptians. They are beating their heads against a wall vs my defense, but eventually, if they break enough heads, they will get through. I wonder what tech they are developing that will tilt the balance in this stalemate.

[Franklinnoble]

I have my first caravel in the water... I can't send you much help with it at this point, but maybe I can use other diplomatic means to assist. Of course, I haven't invented the calendar yet, so I really have no idea where I am, from a global perspective.

[spleen1015]

I am trying to register for the game on civstats, but it tells me the 'king' isn't the registration password.

What should it be?

[Yossarian]

nah - the register password is not the game password nor your civ password

it is a third password that was set by game admin purely for civ stats

he told me mine via email I think (might have been pm)

[Franklinnoble]

So, I've got my caravel heading east... and I see the Americans right off the bat (I'd say less than 7 tiles of ocean).

Where are you at Runtheball?

How do we feel about just kicking the AI out of the game completely?

[spleen1015]

Gandhi has a massive melon.

[Runtheball]

So, I've got my caravel heading east... and I see the Americans right off the bat (I'd say less than 7 tiles of ocean).

Where are you at Runtheball?

How do we feel about just kicking the AI out of the game completely?

The Americans are directly below me. Picture the country of Italy (the boot). The americans are at the foot of the boot, I'm in the middle, and the Egyptians are blocking me at the top of the boot. Its a sucked position to be in, but at least the Americans are friendly and worship the Buddha. So, land those forces, have them head north, and send the ship back for more. (If you have a tank or two, that'd really help).

As for kicking the AI out completely, that's something I thought I could do...but now I'm not sure I can. I can kick players, but then the AI assumes control of their civs. Even if I could kick the AI, I think it would really screw-up the game at this point. The time to do it would have been before they got their second cities.

I'm planning to run another game someday soon (I owe that to Bisbo) and I'm learning alot about how to set it up this time around. Next time I'd use either Terran or Pangaea map, maybe only one AI civ (depending on how many players we have) and set that civ to one step below Noble. That way they wouldn't be much of a threat, but would add a nice random element into the mix.

[spleen1015]

(If you have a tank or two, that'd really help).

I know I'm not all that good at this game, but if someone has tanks already, I'm fucked.

[spleen1015]

I am just messing aroung with PitBoss.

Could some of you guys try to connect to me and play a turn?

74.132.165.174
jared

I think I have this figured out. I may host a game in the future.

[Franklinnoble]

The Americans are directly below me. Picture the country of Italy (the boot). The americans are at the foot of the boot, I'm in the middle, and the Egyptians are blocking me at the top of the boot. Its a sucked position to be in, but at least the Americans are friendly and worship the Buddha. So, land those forces, have them head north, and send the ship back for more. (If you have a tank or two, that'd really help).

As for kicking the AI out completely, that's something I thought I could do...but now I'm not sure I can. I can kick players, but then the AI assumes control of their civs. Even if I could kick the AI, I think it would really screw-up the game at this point. The time to do it would have been before they got their second cities.

I'm planning to run another game someday soon (I owe that to Bisbo) and I'm learning alot about how to set it up this time around. Next time I'd use either Terran or Pangaea map, maybe only one AI civ (depending on how many players we have) and set that civ to one step below Noble. That way they wouldn't be much of a threat, but would add a nice random element into the mix.

I'll head north along the coast, then... maybe I can diplomatically convince the Egyptians to back off.

I know I'm not all that good at this game, but if someone has tanks already, I'm fucked.

Funny. I don't even have the calendar or alphabet yet. I have no perspective of the global scale, and I can't trade technology. All I have on the American coast is an empty caravel, because I was desperate to meet somebody.

So, no... no tanks.

[Franklinnoble]

I am just messing aroung with PitBoss.

Could some of you guys try to connect to me and play a turn?

74.132.165.174
jared

I think I have this figured out. I may host a game in the future.

I'm connectected. :D

[Franklinnoble]

Ok... took one turn as Roosevelt.

[Franklinnoble]

Oh... if you wanna get a game going, I'd like to play as the Americans (either leader) this time... and Sharon wants to try the French as Louis...

[spleen1015]

Oh... if you wanna get a game going, I'd like to play as the Americans (either leader) this time... and Sharon wants to try the French as Louis...

Thanks for giving it a try. That seemed pretty easy. I downloaded, installed, and had a game up in about 10 minutes. It helped that I already had the ports open, but it was pretty easy.

I will write you guys down. I will look to start a game soon.

[Franklinnoble]

Awesome. I'm a certified Civ junkie... I'm going to have to keep a rolodex with all the IP addresses of my PitBoss games. That's probably the best app to come to TBS games since, well, TBS games.

[spleen1015]

Awesome. I'm a certified Civ junkie... I'm going to have to keep a rolodex with all the IP addresses of my PitBoss games. That's probably the best app to come to TBS games since, well, TBS games.

I agree. I'm surprised we haven't seen anything like it before.

[spleen1015]

I am unable to get to the game. Can anyone else?

[Runtheball]

We got that out-of-sync thing. I saved and rebooted. *hopefully* we won't have to retake the turn. I'll let you know in a minute

[Runtheball]

Its working again, and the save worked, so no need to re-take your turn. Just waiting on Spleen to advance the turn.

[WVUFAN]

Hey, Spleen -- I'd love to be in a game (outside of the ones I run); if you're starting one.

[spleen1015]

Its working again, and the save worked, so no need to re-take your turn. Just waiting on Spleen to advance the turn.
On the way!

[spleen1015]

I took my turn, then it froze. Now I can't get back in. I broke it! :D

[Franklinnoble]

I've contacted the Egyptians. Sadly, I am not presently able to compel them to make peace with you. :-(

As soon as I can build galleons, I'll send you some swordsmen. But I don't know exactly how long that will take... I'm one turn from Calendar now...

[Runtheball]

I appreciate your efforts! Sadly, they're wearing me down.

[Yossarian]

if you declare war against the egyptians mibbe they'll be distracted from attacking runtheball?

[Runtheball]

Anyone have influence with the Americans? They're "pleased" with me, but not pleased enough to sacrifice their boys in my defense.

[Franklinnoble]

Anyone have influence with the Americans? They're "pleased" with me, but not pleased enough to sacrifice their boys in my defense.

I'll talk to them on my next turn, but I doubt it...

[Franklinnoble]

if you declare war against the egyptians mibbe they'll be distracted from attacking runtheball?

Not a bad idea... do they have galleons yet? Can they even invade if they want?

[Runtheball]

I havent seen any galleons. And I can't see much of the world due to them blocking my way off this peninsula. I believe they are connected to other lands to the west...not sure.
I doubt that they have galleons, and I believe their tech level is about the same as mine...but that situation is bound to change in their favor soon.

[spleen1015]

It doesn't seem like the Egyptian starting spot was all that bad, eh? :D

[Franklinnoble]

Alright... I'll talk to America, and go to war with Egypt. I have nothing to lose. Even with Galleons, I am confident I can repel any invasion (my cities are all fairly mature with my tech level, and can produce crossbowmen and swordsmen in short order, if needed).

Hopefully, that will be enough to give you a little breathing room.

Do we have tech trading turned on in this game? I don't have alphabet yet... so I can't anyway... but if I had paper, I could exchange maps. I have 3-4 caravels in the water, so I should be able to make some progress towards giving us a global picture soon.

[Runtheball]

tech trading is on (all options are on). I don't think I can trade techs or maps yet either.
If you are able to launch a sneak attack on her flank or rear, that would be huge help. I've been able to get into her territory just a bit, and do a little pillaging, so I think any distraction of her forces would allow me to get farther in there and do some real pillaging damage. I'm also working on converting her to Buddhism, and that might bring some peace as well.

[Franklinnoble]

All I've done at this point is declare war. I'm researching alphabet, so I can trade techs. Astronomy would take me 49 turns. I'll need paper next, so I can build libraries, trade maps, etc. After that, I'll look into Astronomy... but this could be a very long war. Caravels can't carry any military, so I'm pretty much stranded still.

[spleen1015]

I think I broke it again. It doesn't like it when I am the last person to end my turn apparently. It has done this twice when I have been the last person to end my turn.

[Franklinnoble]

So take your turn sooner. ;)

[Franklinnoble]

As for kicking the AI out completely, that's something I thought I could do...but now I'm not sure I can. I can kick players, but then the AI assumes control of their civs. Even if I could kick the AI, I think it would really screw-up the game at this point. The time to do it would have been before they got their second cities.


And montezuma declares war on Sharon. If anyone else on the continent wants to lend a hand, it would be appreciated...

You sure you don't wanna try to kick the AI out? It would give everyone else a little more breathing room, I think...

[spleen1015]

Heck no! I want the AI to kick some of you guys out!

[Yossarian]

yeah, let's not be wimpish about it. natural selection n all :-p

[Franklinnoble]

Yeah, well, at this difficulty level, it's the AI or us. I think we'd better stick together until we mitigate the threat.

[spleen1015]

We're playing Noble, right?

[Runtheball]

Right, Noble. I would never have put so many AI players in the game, except that several people said they wanted to play but couldn't start with the rest of us, and said they would adopt an AI civ the following day. I guess since we played so long that first night, no one wanted to join the game at such an advanced stage. Now there's nothing I can do about them.

I'm all in favor of allying against them and defeating them that way. So far the Americans are pretty amicable, but the Aztecs and Egyptians have got to be carved-up.

Spleen - can you give a better description of what happens when the game is giving you trouble?
I recall WVUfan saying that the game gets funny at the end of each turn, and you may need to wait a minute or two to take your next turn if you're online at the end of a turn.

[spleen1015]

I hit enter to go to the next turn and it is like the game freezes. I can still click on thing and they become active, but nothing will move.

[spleen1015]

I just ending another turn. I will give it a few minutes to see if I can do anything.

[spleen1015]

You are correct. I have to wait a few seconds.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Yossarian]

any chance we can rename the two AI Spleen1015's?

[WVUFAN]

Runtheball has given me permission to take over one of the open civs. Any one in particular y'all would suggest I take over?

[Galaxy]

Not to threadjack, but is the e-mail "multiplayer" version good?

[Franklinnoble]

Runtheball has given me permission to take over one of the open civs. Any one in particular y'all would suggest I take over?

You could take over Egypt, and end the war. Or the Aztecs, and end that war, too.

[Franklinnoble]

Not to threadjack, but is the e-mail "multiplayer" version good?

Yeah, the PBEM works. It's slow, due to the nature of PBEM, but it's solid.

[WVUFAN]

There has been an overthrow of the current government of the Egyptian people. There is a new ruler.

The People of Egypt offer to end all hostilities toward the peoples of Mongolia and Arabia in exchange for the same.

[Runtheball]

Woohooo!
Well, actually, I was hoping that in a few hundred years, with Franklin's help, I might expand into the Egyptian lands. Oh well, welcome to the neighborhood.

[Franklinnoble]

Woohooo!
Well, actually, I was hoping that in a few hundred years, with Franklin's help, I might expand into the Egyptian lands. Oh well, welcome to the neighborhood.

Who says that still can't happen? ;)

Now we just need to smack down the Aztecs... And something tells me Germany is going to become a problem.

[Runtheball]

Does anyone even know where Germany is? The world looks pretty small from where I'm at.

[Yossarian]

germany is on our continent.

[Franklinnoble]

Anyone seen WVUFan around? His other two games have been offline for two days, and his turn timed out here...

[Yossarian]

I think this:

Originally Posted by WVUFAN
Starting now until tomorrow afternoon, the game will be down while I do some work on the systems here. Expect the game to be back up mid-day tomorrow. The progress of the game thus far has been saved.

Is still the case ('mid-day tomorrow' not withstanding)

[spleen1015]

He mentioned he was working on his computer in his game's thread.

[Franklinnoble]

My rush to Optics has paid off. The mighty Mongols (who probably never set foot on a boat in actual history) are the first to circumnavigate the globe.

Now we have a better chance of outrunning our bigger rivals. :D

[Runtheball]

Any objections to shortening the turn clock from 18 to 15 hours?

[spleen1015]

I don't have any.

[Yossarian]

go for it

[Franklinnoble]

Yeah... more turns are better. :D

[Runtheball]

Well danged if I can find a way to change the time limit. Should be easy to do. I took down the game, reloaded pitboss, and thought that would allow me to change settings, but no. Did a search on Apolyton web site, couldn't find the answer there.

We may be stuck with an 18 hour limit. The good thing is, we rarely go past about 12 hours anyway (until this week).

WVUfan has not been taking his turns, so the game has kinda dragged lately. He's got alot of other stuff going on lately, so has asked me to put Egypt back on AI control until he can return. He says he should be back in a few days.

Everyone start pimping SimCiv so we can generate more interest. I've postponed the start of that game, but if there's significant interest I could start it next week. I'll set that one to a 12 hour turn clock.

[Franklinnoble]

I wanna know what Yossarian's strategy is... he's kicking ass in this game.

What's with all the 1GPT "gifts" to Montezuma?

[Runtheball]

Sorry folks, but I had to reboot my computer, and the save file I made prior to the reboot didn't work. We will need to re-do the current turn.

[Runtheball]

I wanna know what Yossarian's strategy is... he's kicking ass in this game.

What's with all the 1GPT "gifts" to Montezuma?

That's strange. Never heard of this before. How did you find out that he's doing this?

[Franklinnoble]

That's strange. Never heard of this before. How did you find out that he's doing this?

Diplomatic advisor screen shows all your ongoing trade arrangements with other players (doesn't show one-time deals, just stuff like "silks to montezuma for 1GPT).

Anyhow, he has three separate 1gpt deals to Montezuma, with nothing in return. Either he's paying him to do something, or it's some sort of diplomatic strategy.

My suspicion is that he's paying Montezuma to harass Sharon, keeping her from expanding north towards his territory while the Aztec threat exists to the south. :mad:

[Yossarian]

I say noooooottthhhiiinnggggggg

except that im afraid of the dark and suspect (wthout any real evidence) that multiple small gifts might impress the AI (and keep away 'the dark') more than one big gift.

But i'm kinda just guessing that

Plus, I'm not top of the game anyway - are you not second behind Frederick?

[Franklinnoble]

I say noooooottthhhiiinnggggggg

except that im afraid of the dark and suspect (wthout any real evidence) that multiple small gifts might impress the AI (and keep away 'the dark') more than one big gift.

But i'm kinda just guessing that

Plus, I'm not top of the game anyway - are you not second behind Frederick?

You're at the top of the research ladder (well, except for maybe Frederick). I think my score is only higher because ... I have no idea why my score is higher, actually.

[spleen1015]

You're at the top of the research ladder (well, except for maybe Frederick). I think my score is only higher because ... I have no idea why my score is higher, actually.

More troops, maybe?

[Franklinnoble]

More troops, maybe?

I doubt it. I slashed military spending a little while ago because my initial land grab left my empire too expensive to manage. Maybe I get brownie points for my navigational prowess.

[Yossarian]

you're at top at least in part because you had your own island and have thus expanded much more than anyone else - you've got tonnes of cities compared to me. also, you had a bit spike jump. I'm guessing you met a lot of civs and got some badass trading or something...

[Franklinnoble]

Maybe. Like I said, the expansion has been costly, as I don't really have the infrastructure to support all the cities I have now.

I've met just about everyone thanks to all the caravels I have cruising around, and I've made a few tech trades, but I still think you have a substantial edge with gunpowder right now.

[Yossarian]

I'm going to show all you americans my USA inspired 'foreign policy' :-p

[Franklinnoble]

I'm going to show all you americans my USA inspired 'foreign policy' :-p

You're going to give a ton of aid to your less privileged neighbors?

[Yossarian]

good retort :-)

[Franklinnoble]

And now Germany declares war on Sharon.

I would advise Yossarian and Spleen to take up arms against the Germans.

Look at the map of your continent, fellas. Germany is already the dominant force. There's no chance she can hold them off alone. Imagine what the map will look like if Russia becomes German territory.

Think you have a chance of stopping them after that happens?

[spleen1015]

Yossarian, will you give me open borders?

[Yossarian]

Open borders granted.

I'm happy to join in a multinational anti german force but i'll need a decent number of turns to reinforce my own cities and create enough of an army to make it worthwhile. I'm thinking, realistically, like 10 turns or maybe even more.

[Franklinnoble]

Open borders granted.

I'm happy to join in a multinational anti german force but i'll need a decent number of turns to reinforce my own cities and create enough of an army to make it worthwhile. I'm thinking, realistically, like 10 turns or maybe even more.

It will take at least that long for me to invent and build the galleons to send troops from mongolia.

The sooner you declare war, the better. It will split Frederick's focus. In my experience, the AI doesn't fight on multiple fronts very well, anyway, and if your border cities already have musketmen, there is almost zero chance he'll be able to capture them right now.

[Yossarian]

my border cities (um.. ALL my cities) have warriors in them if anything. I have invented gunpowder... i dont' actualyl have any units. check the power graph.

[spleen1015]

my border cities (um.. ALL my cities) have warriors in them if anything. I have invented gunpowder... i dont' actualyl have any units. check the power graph.

:eek:

I have swordsman and axeman all over the place. I should have came after you!

:D

[spleen1015]

Tell Sharon:

"GANDHI TO THE RESCUE!"

[Franklinnoble]

my border cities (um.. ALL my cities) have warriors in them if anything. I have invented gunpowder... i dont' actualyl have any units. check the power graph.

Umm... Sharon sees a musketman of yours parked right outside the barbarian city of Scythian. :confused:

[Franklinnoble]

Tell Sharon:

"GANDHI TO THE RESCUE!"

Awesome... thanks! :D

Ever seen "UHF"?


Next week, on U-62, he's back! And this time, he's mad.

Gandhi II!

No more Mr. Passive Resistance. He's out to kick some butt. This is one bad mother you don't want to mess with.

[Yossarian]

i'm not saying idon't have ANY units - but compare my power graph to sharons and everyone else without gunpowder - i'm roughly the same. I'm building gun dudes and i have two or three but in 3 or 4 of my 6 cities, i have a warrior, or skirmisher guarding them them so i'll help, but the first part of that is defending the homeland.

Looking at the power charts and 'score graph' it doesn't look like sharon's actually suffered any losses so i don't think we need to panic to be honest.

i'm all in favour of expandnig into german territory trust me.

[Franklinnoble]

No, she hasn't suffered any losses (to Germany yet - Montezuma took out a horse archer), and nobody's panicking (it's just a game ;)). I'm just looking at the world map I have and particularly one of that continent, and Germany looks like a real threat. So, I'm just humbly asking for help. Sharon is doing everything she can - slave-rushing new units (costing population points), and generally fighting a really good defensive war at this point - but with two fronts to fight on, she can't take the battle to them.

I've just declared war on Germany. Best I can do at this point is use my caravels to pick off any galleys they have on the coast. I am researching Astronomy right now, and will move troops to the battle as soon as possible.

[spleen1015]

I have 9 swordsman I can spare heading that way.

[Franklinnoble]

I have 9 swordsman I can spare heading that way.

Nice! That ought to get Frederick's attention. :D

[Runtheball]

Franklin, thanks for the trade offer. I think I blew the acceptance of it. I re-made the offer so hopefully you can accept it.

I have a great scientist now, and am only two turns away from having calendar, so that will help me to catch up a bit technologically. Right now I'm struggling to avoid bankruptcy while I rush to complete some markets. My economy is a mess after that long war with Egypt.

I wish I could offer some support to Sharon, but we're a very pathetic civ right now, and if WVUfan doesn't come back soon I still have Egypt to worry about. I'm also worried that if I can't convert the Americans with culture (a very real possibility it seems) then they'll soon attack as I'm much weaker than they are. Being sandwiched between two AI civs sucks!!!

[Franklinnoble]

Fortunately, I don't think Washington is going to be much of a problem right away. I'd worry more about Egypt.

[Franklinnoble]

Man, Yossarian... you're impossible to trade with, dude.

Sharon says you're "stingy mean"

:D

[Yossarian]

ha ha ha funny

i keep trying to message you guys with alternative trades but i'm not sure if you're getting the text.

The tech that I have costs like 2000 beakers, drama and the other one you guys were offering cost like 500 each or something...

Just holding out for fair offers y'know :-)

[Franklinnoble]

I wanna know how you're so far ahead, technologically and monetarily... your strategy is clearly much better than what I'm using. :)

[spleen1015]

I wanna know how you're so far ahead, technologically and monetarily... your strategy is clearly much better than what I'm using. :)

The dude plays on Monarchy level solo! I expected to get my ass kicked.

[Franklinnoble]

The dude plays on Monarchy level solo! I expected to get my ass kicked.

Clearly, he needs a handicap or something. I've never played above noble... and even at that level, I generally lose.:D

[Yossarian]

"Clearly" I'm being handicapped by being singled out. I had hoped to slide under the radar.

Anyway, no secret to my "success" to be honest. Founded two religions, spreading the love (for gold). Used lots of cotteges to get lots of dough.

[Franklinnoble]

That must be my problem. I have no religion. I am a godless pagan primate. :D

[Lonnie]

Sounds like this game is getting interesting. Hope the others get going again soon.

[Franklinnoble]

I say noooooottthhhiiinnggggggg

except that im afraid of the dark and suspect (wthout any real evidence) that multiple small gifts might impress the AI (and keep away 'the dark') more than one big gift.

But i'm kinda just guessing that

Plus, I'm not top of the game anyway - are you not second behind Frederick?

You're a lying, sneaky bastard, is what you are.

Here's why he's giving 1gpt to the AI... it's an exploit:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173468

Oh, and a little more research (which, admittedly, I should have done a LONG time ago) reveals that YOU started the war with Sharon by proxy of the AI:

http://www.noblebrown.com/images/sneakybastard.jpg

You're a liar and a cheat, and unless the Pitboss kicks you out of the game for it, I will resign immediately. I have no interest in playing with anyone who plays like this. It's no fun. If you think you're being clever and crafty and all that - fine. But I'm trying to enjoy the game, not deal with some snake who's going to lie, backstab, and exploit the hell out of the AI in order get ahead.

[Franklinnoble]

The bottom line here is that were there no AI players in the game, Yossarian would not be able to do any of this. But he is clearly exploiting the AI.

[Yossarian]

I'm exploiting nothing.

I did bring in a war ally against sharon though.

[Franklinnoble]

Liar. You're clearly using the GPT exploit.

[Yossarian]

The 1gpt trades are because Montezuma is perpetually 'annoyed' with me.

I've just logged in to check the trade screen.

Having read that threat at civfanatics, I see what you're saying, but that's purely circumstantial. It's difficult to prove from my point of view but i have two trades with Monte just now - adding up to 5gpt coming to me in exchange for two resources to him. These trades are legit and if they WERE subsidised by me giving him 1gpt then that's purely chance and was never my intention.

I would happily void both of those trades if the group deems that a fair move, however ignorance of that exploit means that there was no exploititive intention in my trades.

Montezuma hates me mainly due to me having another religion I think. I've been bribing him on and off forever.

If you can see my relations with Frederick you'll see that I have positive relations with him due to sharing resources and technology.

This is because it is true that I have been sucking up the AI ass in order to give myself space to grow.

I've even been sucking up to the english - although not in as big a fashion.

It is also true that I have been bribing the AI to keep things nasty with an opponent to the south but that isn't cheating in any way. That's just nasty diplomacy. Think of it as a cold war if you will.

Wrt "exploit the hell out of the AI in order get ahead." that's not why my finances are ahead (think 5gpt makes any real difference in this game?)

IF you really really need to know (having asked a number of times already), the reason I am ahead is that I pulled off an opening gambit called the Civil Service Slingshot. This is where you pull out all your resources to reasearch code of laws whist completing the oracle. This allows you to select civil service as a free tech which in turn allows you to go to beurocracy as your govermental civic. That civic gives a big boost to yoru capital city, both in finance and production.

If you go for the Civil Service Slingshot, you leave your cities weak because you don't build anything really for the first X turns. This is why my army is relatively weak (despite me having advanced tech) and this is why I have been bribing the AI's to keep away. I'd have been bribing my human neighbours too if I felt there was an immediate military threat from anyone.

[WVUFAN]

Not taking anyone's side here, but I have used the Slingshot before. It's highly effective.

[Franklinnoble]

Bottom line is, with no AI civs in the game, none of these trades happen. You're exploiting the AI, plain and simple. This has nothing to do with the "Civil Service Slingshot."

Playing stupid about your intentions earlier just pisses me off even further. You wanna go to war, go to war. I'd have no problem with that. But you're playing dirty, and I don't want anything to do with it. Ultimately, it's up to Runtheball to decide if he wants anything to do with it.

[Yossarian]

You have a problem with two of my behaviours.

1. You believe I have been using an exploit.

I didn't know about it. Even if I did - it'd be seriously stupid to try to use an exploit featured on the main civ board's forum. I know Spleen reads that site. I'm not the kind of guy who cheats in online games but I don't think I can prove anything beyond ignorance.

2. You really dislike my bribing the AI against Sharon.

I 'get' this. I would be pissed if someone had used the AI against me, but not because they did it - because I didn't think of doing it.

The AI (especially Monte) is an agressive guy in this game. If I get the AI bothering someone else, it gives me time to expand and I choose to go to war with the human player being bothered (as I was considering doing) then I get diplomacy bonuses from the AI in doing so.

Now.. I don't view that as cheating in any shape or form. It's normal diplomacy with the AI and nowhere did we state anything about not doing this kind of thing with the AI. I Think you'll find it normal behaviour in a multiplayer game to trade with ai to your advantage.

[Franklinnoble]

You've already established yourself as a liar. There's no reason to think you're NOT using the exploit.

Why else would you make the multiple 1GPT trades with Montezuma? Who cares if he's annoyed with you? He's no threat to you, on any level, and he's on the opposite end of the continent from you. Are you going to give me tribute like that because I'm annoyed with you?

No. You're exploiting the AI. Don't insult my intelligence. You've acted stupid, naive, and innocent earlier in this thread, and I'm not falling for that b.s. anymore.

[Runtheball]

A few observations:
1. There is nothing wrong with Yossarian bribing an AI civ into attacking Sharon. If there were no AI civs, we'd be at each others throats eventually anyway. It was a mistake on my part to include so many AI civs, but I thought they would be adopted by others that wanted to join the game.
2. I was totally unaware of this exploit until this morning (thanks for bringing it to my attention)
3. I don't know whether Yoss intended to exploit the AI...I will look into the record of his actions later today. In the meantime, he's offered to cancel his AI deals, and that would be a good-faith measure that would go a long way to resolving this in my opinion.
4. I've spent way too much time reading the Apolyton forums this morning, and should be working.

[Yossarian]

Excuse me, I haven't established myself as anything like a liar.

The only thing i've been anything less than honest in this thread is my 'strategy' where i mentioned the cottages and religions but neglected to mention the slingshot.

You say why bother to pay tribute to AI because they're on the other side of the island - I wasn't sure exactly where they were until recent map trades. I'm consistant in my relations with AI.

My AI strategy is as follows in this game:

Meet them, keep them sweet, kill them after i have my own island.

I consider human opponents to be a much greater threat. So I play AI against human opponents to keep them busy while I get ready. Nothing cheaty about that IMO. A bit ruthless perhaps and not 'nicey nicey' but not cheating either.

As the game has played, people are playing 'nice' with each other and because of that, there is a troop of seven units travelling through sharon's land to kill monezuma. I chose montezume because I think he is of less use to me than fred. Additionally he is of less threat and I can kill him AND keep in everyone's favour whilst planning to take over the world.

I've not 'played naive' either. I did not know of this exploit until your message. BTW, to keep things in perspective, I'm making next to nothing financially from trades with AI - I make (off the top of my head) 150+gpt from my economy. Aside from the 'trust me' issue, there's almost NO incentive to try to pull a fast one there, it's a negligable, insignifacant chunk of change.
I haven't opened the SDK. I don't know how diplomacy works on an intimate level. I know that 'giving stuff' to AI keeps them happy. I suspect that multiple trades has a greater impact than single trades. I repeatedly have gifted numerous trades to fred - one by one rather than two or three at a time because of this.

Ok, so maybe i was playing a sneaky game. Paying the AI to war with sharon without declaring war myself - but that's not outwith legal play IMO and like I said, I have been in the process of getting ready to help sharon's plight with an army over the last few turns due to the 'mood' of the game.

Are you going to give me tribute like that because I'm annoyed with you?

No - but I would if I thought it would stop you attacking me and I didn't want to go to war. I have been conducting diplomacy with non-ai players too, trying to wrangle a situation that I can use to my advantage but I haven't deliberately used cheats or exploits - just normal diplomacy.

The only BS here is you jumping all over my ass with almost no basis to do so. The exploit you are accusing me of using would be of next to no use to me EVEN IF i was using it (which I am not). The other stuff (bribing AI etc) is fair game if you're including AI in the game (unless otherwise noted).

[Yossarian]

I have cancelled all trades with all AI players including open borders.

If everyone is ok with it, I will make new trades next turn.

[Runtheball]

First, guys, you're dealing with an inexperienced player as your game host. I admit to making mistakes in how I set up the game (too many AI civs, inability to kick AI civs out of the game, inability to change the turn time limit), and I'm learning as I go. This is my second online Civ game, the first being FOFC Global, which is still in the stone age. I naively thought that I'd just start a game and a few people would join and we'd all play fair, have fun, and act like adults. I didn't think I'd have to arbitrate a catfight like this. Like I said, I'm learning.

I knew nothing of exploits for this game until this morning. I knew that exploits and cheats are available for probably every game, but I have no interest in cheating, and it never occured to me when I started this game that I'd have to be on the lookout for cheating players.

So Franklin provided the link to the discussion of an exploit and says that Yoss is using it. He says that Yoss has been lying and playing dirty. I have no problem with him playing the role of a pariah state (ie playing dirty). His act to start a war between Monty and Sharon was, in my opinion, pretty slick. I'd be willing to join an alliance against him, and wipe his civ off the map (if I had any ability to project power across the ocean, and didn't have Egypt to worry about). That's how you handle devious rulers in this game. But once we carved up his pie, that'd leave only 4 human players, and it'd be like that Survivor show...who gets voted off the island next? At least in regards to his actions against Sharon, I kinda admire the way he pulled it off. So he want's to the this games "bad guy"...let him.

Now, if he's used an exploit against the AI, that's a different story altogether. I should have been more vigilant and able to spot the use of an exploit myself, but again I've never hosted a game like this before, never got this far in a multiplayer civ game before, and never really thought about cheaters in this game. Now I have the very unpleasant task of trying to determine if Yoss is cheating and if he is, I will kick him out of the game. As to the debate about the exploit not being 'cheating', that's BS. The GPT exploit causes the AI to do something incredibly stupid, that no human player would ever do. Its a cheat! Did Yoss do this? I don't know yet.

Since I have no contact with Yoss, Montezuma, Frederick, England, etc...I have access to very little info with which to decide if Yoss is using the exploit. As I was typing this, it occured to me that I could log-in as Monty and that would give me more info about Yoss to make a determination of what he's doing. As Monty, I could see the statistics and graphs for Yoss. I notice that his GNP jumped ALOT close to 1000 BC, and went ballistic a couple hundred years later. Yoss built the Oracle in 1040 BC, and then got Civil Service, and that might account for alot of that. He also has ALOT of hamlets and towns, AND founding a religion for which he has that special building that gets you one gold for each city that shares the religion, AND he hasn't been at war with anyone....all that spells alot of income to me. I'm probably not a good judge of what is possible to achieve without cheating, but it sounds plausible to me.

The one strange thing I saw when logged-in as Monty is that his GNP dropped to zero around 1270 AD, and had been dropping steadily since 900 AD. That could be a result of the GPT exploit. It could also be because he has a crappy civ and appears to have little source of income. I've been running a deficit ever since the war with Egypt, and had as little as 4 GP in my treasury just a few turns ago...that doesn't mean someone has used an exploit on me! I just suck. If I learn that the exploit has been used, Yoss is out of the game, but at this point I can't tell for sure, and I suspect he's just better at the game than the rest of us.

I'd appreciate it if Franklin could post some good evidence to support his claim that Yoss is using the GPT exploit. If I can't find any sure way to prove it from Apolyton (and I'm not going to spend the entire night pursuing this), or if Franklin can't prove his case, then Yoss will stay and (I suppose) Franklin and Sharon will bail. That would suck. But Franklin, you've got to back up your accusations if you want me to label Yoss a cheater and boot him.

[Franklinnoble]

Here's the problem - Yossarian's already removed the evidence by canceling his deals with the AI. Not that it should matter - I called him out earlier (before I knew about the exploit) on the bizarre 1GPT trades he was making with Montezuma.

If you read the thread on Civfanatics, this is exactly how the exploit works. You offer incremental 1GPT trades to the AI and then see how much he is willing to offer for your resource in return. You do this until you reach the "cap" of how much the AI will offer. As long as he's got your 1GPT tributes as income, he'll think he has that money to spend.

After ten turns, you can cancel the tribute deals. But the resource trade keeps going on. Even if it means the AI is now spending at a deficit.

I don't have a screencap, but you can read up earlier in this thread where I point this out, and you can see that he doesn't even deny doing it.

As far as I know, there's no other logging going on to see this, and unless you have some autosaves to re-load and look at, I doubt we'll get much more information.

My mistake was calling him out publicly before telling Runtheball privately. If I had done it differently, he could have logged in as Montezuma before Yossarian canceled the deals, and a lot more evidence would be available. Like I said, if you have a save from a turn or two ago, you can maybe still see this.

[Runtheball]

My mistake was calling him out publicly before telling Runtheball privately. If I had done it differently, he could have logged in as Montezuma before Yossarian canceled the deals, and a lot more evidence would be available. Like I said, if you have a save from a turn or two ago, you can maybe still see this.

That's a good idea, I do have at least one old manual save (not that old). I'll load it later today or tonight and have a look.

[Yossarian]

I've never denied trading 1gpt trades to Monte - neither have I denied getting trades back for gold.

But there was never any cheating / exploiting. My '1gpt' trades were for diplomatic reasons.

Again, let me put this in perspective for you. My economy is bringing in around 150 gpt - a bit more or less depending on what rate I set my tax meter (libraries / markets etc).

The entirity of my trades with Monte were bringing in FIVE gold per turn until I cancelled last turn. I can't remember what my trades with other AI civs were bringing in but overall it was a tiny tiny fraction of my income. What would be the point of exploiting this bug?

I think Franklin is making a big deal of this because I'm playing the AI against Sharon instead of attacking her myself.

I've played several multiplayer games of Civ, nobody has ever accused me of cheating and I've never wanted to.

Look at this objectively, without the vitriol muddying the waters. I have a cottage based economy (would be happy sharing screenshots with anyone who wants to see how much I'm bringing in) that brings in a tonne of gold (top in game when i set tax to 100). There would be no reason for me to use this cheat even if I was lame enough to do so.

My method of diplomacy (and again, I have been engaging in diplomacy with human players with the same goal as the AI diplomacy) coupled with an angry husband means I'm more a victim of this stupid bloody bug than anyone.

[spleen1015]

Is the game down for anyone else?

[Runtheball]

Sorry the game was down. For some reason my bookmark to the forum wasnt working, (it kept saying that the website was re-directing my connection in a way that couldn't be completed???? Never saw that message before, and thought the website was having problems).

I loaded up 3 saved games for periods from the past 100 years. Yossarian was gifting 1GP X3 to Monte for part of that period (at least between 1380-1410) and that stopped by 1450. He was also trading pigs for 2gpt and copper for 3gpt during this period and up until he cancelled the deal a turn or two ago. During this time Monte was operating his economy at a deficit, which continues today. All of this is exactly what we would see if someone was using the GPT exploit.

Reading Yossarian's post #222 (two posts above this one), I agree with everything he says there. If he was intentionally using this exploit (as it appears) he's gained very little from it, and I believe the game would look almost exactly the same at this point if he had not traded this way with Monte. He doesn't need the extra 5 gpt as his economy is strong enough without it. I have gifted one GPT to AI civs many times in my single player games, to gain their favor, but I've never offered them one GPT incrementally as Yoss has done. That point, as well as the deficit that Monte has been running under both during and after trading with Yoss, suggest to me that the exploit has been used. Can anyone show me any info that verifies the AI sometimes does operate in a deficit (and continue buying goods while in a deficit) for more than one or two turns during a game (without the GPT exploit of course)? I'm sure the game is programmed for the AI to avoid prolonged deficits.

There are a few options here:
I could do nothing, and Franklin and Sharon may quit (game over),
I could kick Yossarian, and we'd be left with another (strong) AI civ,
I could invite WVUfan to take over Germany and try to enforce a lasting peace in the region, and still run the risk that Franklin and Sharon would quit because Yoss is "too far ahead",
I could just say I'm tired of dealing with cheating, lying, personal assaults, and threats to quit the game if some people don't play the way others expect them to play...and just dissolve the game. It's become decidedly "not-fun" for me, and I suspect I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Honestly I don't know what to do here. I don't see any option that will allow us to continue to enjoy playing a game together.

Comments?

[spleen1015]

I don't want to lose Franklin and Sharon. If he is proven to be cheating then he should be booted from the game, period. Has it been proven that he cheated? I dunno. That is for someone else to decide.

I'm enjoying the game, but if all parties involved aren't having fun then it would't bother me if the game died. If Franklin and Sharon quit, I see this happening anyway.

[Yossarian]

Well, what can I say?

During this time Monte was operating his economy at a deficit, which continues today.

His deficit continues today - a 3gpt subsidy wouldn't be enough to fix / cause his problems (because even though i've cancelled 5gpt worth of trades, he's still losing dough).

Even the exploit thread states that you don't subsidise someone who's operating at a loss. I must have traded at a time where he was making money. Lucky (or not) I guess.

This is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. I haven't deliberately done anything wrong but I'm hitting refresh all the time on the forum because of the accusations / animosity.

Runtheball says he has gifted 1gpt to AI to keep sweet. I have gifted seperate 1gpt trades for the same purpose. It just so-happens that there is a bug where that can be exploited. Not my bad. Just bad luck or Karma or something.

If there is a general concensus that you want my ass outta here then so be it. I haven't tried to do anything but play a ruthless (but legal) game here but I would understand that decision (and would take revenge on ALL your sorry asses in another game if permitted).

[WVUFAN]

To interject if I may:

To me, there would be two questions:

One: Do you feel as the Pitboss that there was an INTENT of cheating on the part of Yossarian? If not, it's entirely possible he was "using" the exploit without realizing it, especially if he received no real gain from doing so, which he apparently hasn't.


Two: How far are you willing to let players take you? Also to me (since I don't have the "benefit" of being in the middle of this, I could be wrong) you have one person (Yossarian) who seems to have been up front this entire time about what he may have done and offered to cancel trades and do what he can to make up for any issues he may have accidentally caused. On the other, you have FN, who is threatening to quit if Yossarian isn't booted. One is seemingly willing to compromise, the other is not.

I like FN as much as anyone -- he's in all of my Pitboss games, but I honestly think he's more upset over Yossarian's COMPLETELY LEGAL tactic of duping an AI to war against another player.

Looking at this from the outside, I see one person who is willing to do what it takes (including being booted) to continue the game, and one who seems to be willing to let the game die if he doesn't get his way.

[Runtheball]

To interject if I may:

To me, there would be two questions:

One: Do you feel as the Pitboss that there was an INTENT of cheating on the part of Yossarian? If not, it's entirely possible he was "using" the exploit without realizing it, especially if he received no real gain from doing so, which he apparently hasn't.


I don't know. I had no knowledge of this cheat until last week, and have never played this thing online before. He does not 'seem' to be a cheater, but what little I understand about the exploit matches what I've seen him do by reloading the saved games. Like I said, it "appears" that he's used the exploit, but I've stopped short of calling him a cheater --that would have resulted in him being booted. Frankly, if he wanted to cheat an AI civ, Germany would be a much more lucrative target than Monte...in fact any of the AI civs would have netted him more cash than Monte.


Two: How far are you willing to let players take you? Also to me (since I don't have the "benefit" of being in the middle of this, I could be wrong) you have one person (Yossarian) who seems to have been up front this entire time about what he may have done and offered to cancel trades and do what he can to make up for any issues he may have accidentally caused. On the other, you have FN, who is threatening to quit if Yossarian isn't booted. One is seemingly willing to compromise, the other is not.

I like FN as much as anyone -- he's in all of my Pitboss games, but I honestly think he's more upset over Yossarian's COMPLETELY LEGAL tactic of duping an AI to war against another player.

FN has admitted that to me. Either the cheating, or the tactics Yoss is using, would be enough to make him want to leave the game. Personally, I think that the proper course for Franklin (and Sharon, as they're allied by marraige) to follow is to mount a diplomatic campaign against Yoss and try to smack him down that way. If he had a smile on his face I might think he was in the process of doing that right now. I even offered to join the alliance as soon as my backward nation can figure out how to sail the seas. Its in no ones interest to see one nation run away with the game. But I don't think that Yoss's tactics are anything to get upset about. His willingness to be the bad-guy adds interest to the game IMO.

Another thing that no one has mentioned so far is that when I was fighting Egypt and barely holding her off, WVU fan asked to join the game and we mentioned that he "might consider" joining as Egypt and bringing that war to a close. He did that, then kinda dropped-out and Egypt is back on AI and relatively peaceful. Now I'm saying that I'd help fight Yoss as soon as I can, but I might be over-run by now if the war with Egypt was still going on. Was there cheating in any of this?

I'd love to have us all just sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya for awhile, and get back to trying to enjoy a game. Yoss will certainly be more careful to avoid any appearance of using exploits from here out, he's taught us alot about how to play the game, and we're gonna gang-up on him (if possible) and try to even the score a bit.

Now if only we could find someone interested in adopting the role of Frederick...this game might achieve more balance and be more "fun" for everyone.

[spleen1015]

Is the game down again? This and Soylent Green are down for me.

[Runtheball]

I just now took my turn.
And Civstats suggests everything is in order.

[spleen1015]

Hmm. I will give it another try when I get home.