Pat Tillman's brother speaks out against war

[Rabeled]

Looks like we've got another Cindy Frackin' Sheehan on our hands.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday

After Pat’s Birthday

Posted on Oct 19, 2006

By Kevin Tillman

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we got out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman

[JonInMiddleGA]

Whiny little bitch.

[cartman]

Whiny little bitch.

What quality insight about someone who actually enlisted after 9/11 and was on the battlefield. But, that's about the reply I'd expect from you.

[CraigSca]

Meh. People have the right to speak their mind in this country. I have no problem with this.

[Joe]

was the thread starter banned for posting this?

[sabotai]

was the thread starter banned for posting this?

Look at his posting history. If Jesse got banned for only talking politics, than this banning is a no-brainer.

[st.cronin]

Meh. People have the right to speak their mind in this country. I have no problem with this.

"

[Galaxy]

Is this the same brother who fought with him?

[JonInMiddleGA]

But, that's about the reply I'd expect from you.

Then I assume you also know that if I find myself needing any shit from you, I'll squeeze your head. In the meantime, you can take a running jump as you go fuck yourself.

[BucDawg40]

Is this the same brother who fought with him?

Yes.

[cartman]

Then I assume you also know that if I find myself needing any shit from you, I'll squeeze your head. In the meantime, you can take a running jump as you go fuck yourself.

Have you been studying the "Bubba Wheels Book of Internet Debating"? You've been slipping as of late.

[Galaxy]

Yes.

So how does he compare to Cindy then?

[k0ruptr]

wow. I'm glad to see someone write this, I just had a friend visiting for 2 weeks from Afghanistan. He feels the same way. I think a lot of them do. I hope we get out of this Bullshit soon and bring the troops home.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Have you been studying the "Bubba Wheels Book of Internet Debating"? You've been slipping as of late.

My original post was meant to be read with a sort of Bugs-Bunny-looks-into- the-camera voice. It wasn't obvious I'm sure, as the correct phrasing would have been "Whiny little bitch, ain't he?" But I wasn't in the mood to field the inevitable back-and-forth about "no he ain't / yes he is / no he ain't" that the full quote would have prompted. Still, the abbreviated version summed up my feelings on the post provided by our latest troll pretty well, so I ran with it.

As for my second post, that really wasn't a matter for debate, it was a simple statement of fact.

[Tekneek]

I wouldn't say I am qualified to tell somebody they cannot speak out against the government/military that his brother was killed while serving in. I would say that someone who HAS served in combat AND lost a brother in combat can say whatever they want to say about it. I can't see how anyone could even begin to question his qualifications.

[larrymcg421]

Guys, you don't understand. Jon is a REAL MAN and tougher than any of the people stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan. And any of those people who are frustrated with the war effort should just shut up and wait for the next suicide bombing because they don't understand the kind of sacrifices Jon makes on a daily basis as he protects the world with his awesome manly toughness.

[st.cronin]

I wouldn't say I am qualified to tell somebody they cannot speak out against the government/military that his brother was killed while serving in. I would say that someone who HAS served in combat AND lost a brother in combat can say whatever they want to say about it. I can't see how anyone could even begin to question their qualifications.

They have just as much right as anybody else, but, having served in some hot spots myself, I don't think it automatically grants any special wisdom.

[Tekneek]

They have just as much right as anybody else, but, having served in some hot spots myself, I don't think it automatically grants any special wisdom.

If some tree hugging, anti-war activist says the same sort of stuff they would instantly be called out as not knowing anything about it and told to shut up and let people defend their freedom. Yet, when someone who HAS been there and HAS defended those freedoms questions the war effort, somehow they are still not qualified to have a dissenting view on the situation. I suppose that for those who are pro-war, only others that agree with them have a valid opinion on the matter?

[molson]

I would say that someone who HAS served in combat AND lost a brother in combat can say whatever they want to say about it.

The first part might make him more qualified or knowlegeable to speak on certain matters, but the second part doesn't. Yet these victims and family of victims continue to be trotted out, their messages placed on a pedestel. I don't disagree with everything he said, but the politicalization of these people continues to just feel wrong.

[st.cronin]

If some tree hugging, anti-war activist says the same sort of stuff they would instantly be called out as not knowing anything about it and told to shut up and let people defend their freedom. Yet, when someone who HAS been there and HAS defended those freedoms questions the war effort, somehow they are still not qualified to have a dissenting view on the situation. I suppose that for those who are pro-war, only others that agree with them have a valid opinion on the matter?

There are all sorts of rhetorical devices used by both sides. One of which is to say "he's a soldier, therefore he knows better than somebody else."

[BucDawg40]

So how does he compare to Cindy then?

The OP made that claim, not me.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

The first part might make him more qualified or knowlegeable to speak on certain matters, but the second part doesn't. Yet these victims and family of victims continue to be trotted out, their messages placed on a pedestel. I don't disagree with everything he said, but the politicalization of these people continues to just feel wrong.

Oh, yeah, I agree. Those who have actually sacrificed during the war should just shut the f&ck up!:rolleyes:

[molson]

Oh, yeah, I agree. Those who have actually sacrificed during the war should just shut the f&ck up!:rolleyes:

Some people read what they want to read - I have no idea how you came up with this from what I said.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't see how anyone could even begin to question his qualifications.

Bzzt. He's as "qualified" to speak as anybody else. But once he spoke, it became clear that he was a friggin idiot. Just because he wore a uniform doesn't mean he's immune from being dismissed for cause.

And, just to avoid an unnecessary dola post -- Larrymcg, be careful that you don't bump into cartman while you get that running jump.

[Bubba Wheels]

Have you been studying the "Bubba Wheels Book of Internet Debating"? You've been slipping as of late.

You're obsession with me is really quite funny...kinda reminds me of the one Olbermann has with Bush, since 'Bush' is usually every third word out of his mouth. That being said...

While I disagree with some of the listed points in Tillman's message, the basic thrust of it is pretty much along the lines of my own post earlier. Middle-class America fighting and dying while the ruling class profits and parties. Just don't see it any different than that.

And yes, even though Tillman made a few million playing football his roots were solidly middle-class. Which begs another question: Is patriotism being used as an instrument to bamboozle those needed to fight?

In other words, is 'patriotism' some quaint, out-of-date concept used to manipulate the middle-class by the ruling class? I would say so.

Some years ago George Will wrote a piece in the back of Newsweek magazine talking about how corporations were moving off-shore to save 2% in taxes. This was before it all became standard practice. And his point was that he didn't want to bear the cost of protecting and defending a corporation whose 'patriotism' was only 2% deep. Will is a conservative and hardly anti-capitalist.

But again, exactly what I meant in my previous post about the middle-class being the feudal peasants of today.

[Galaxy]

Bzzt. He's as "qualified" to speak as anybody else. But once he spoke, it became clear that he was a friggin idiot. Just because he wore a uniform doesn't mean he's immune from being dismissed for cause.

And, just to avoid an unnecessary dola post -- Larrymcg, be careful that you don't bump into cartman while you get that running jump.

Just curious,
How is he a "friggin" idoit?

[Jonathan Ezarik]

While I disagree with some of the listed points in Tillman's message, the basic thrust of it is pretty much along the lines of my own post earlier. Middle-class America fighting and dying while the ruling class profits and parties. Just don't see it any different than that.

While I don't get that from this article, I do agree with some of your statement. However, I would say that it's more of the lower class fighting and dying while the rich make money hands over fists. Nothing new there, though.


And yes, even though Tillman made a few million playing football his roots were solidly middle-class. Which begs another question: Is patriotism being used as an instrument to bamboozle those needed to fight?

Yes. Welcome to what those of us on the left have been saying for years.

How is he a "friggin" idoit?

Don't you know by now? Anyone who disagrees with Jon is an idiot.

[PineTar]

Whiny little bitch.

[Michael Jackson] I'm looking at the man in the mirror [/King of Pop]

[cougarfreak]

Just curious,
How is he a "friggin" idoit?

I'd like to know too. Seems like most of his points are pretty spot on to me.

[Glengoyne]

My thoughts is that he is certainly entitled to his own opinion. He is, without a doubt, free to make his opinion publicly known. He is undoubtedly closer to the situation, and more knowledgable than most of the public, and therefore added weight should be given to his opinions on that set of particular knowledge that he possesses.

That special knowledge doesn't extend to many of his assertions. That dillutes, in my opinion, his message.

I agree with some of his points, but much of what he states as fact is merely partisan political dogma.

[Bubba Wheels]

While I don't get that from this article, I do agree with some of your statement. However, I would say that it's more of the lower class fighting and dying while the rich make money hands over fists. Nothing new there, though.

Not to quibble, but there is a significant difference between what I said and what you did here. Fact is, your way is almost Marxist. Rich and poor. Bugeousie and Proliteriate. Old and inaccurate, IMO.

Fact is, nothing wrong with making money and raising your 'status.' Its the American way and its why capitalism works. Fact is, most Americans consider themselves part of the 'middle class.' And being middle class is the American dream. Being rich is nice too, but less likely.

But its not the rich I'm aiming at so much as the powerful. Those running things, making decisions, making policy. Sometimes they are the rich, often they are career politicians that reach a point where it becomes profitable above and beyond the office held itself and allows them to align themselves with international interests in conflict with American ones.

Remember Clinton's role in the Dubai ports deal? The 'ruling class.' Those whose personal interests are no longer aligned with those of average Americans. NAFTA, CAFTA and SHAFTA. And to those people, the 'ruling class', patriotism is just a tool to further their own ends. I do not mean to disparage the true patriotism of real Americans that really love their country and seek the best for it.

And, btw, its a complete myth that the brunt of fighting in the military is born by the 'lower class.' Not true. Middle class (surprise) makes up the majority of the military.

[flere-imsaho]

I agree with some of his points, but much of what he states as fact is merely partisan political dogma.

Or, you know, strongly held personal beliefs, shaped by personal experience.... Are people not allowed to have those anymore?

[ISiddiqui]

Or, you know, strongly held personal beliefs, shaped by personal experience.... Are people not allowed to have those anymore?

Not unless they are right wingers ;).

[Oilers9911]

Bzzt. He's as "qualified" to speak as anybody else. But once he spoke, it became clear that he was a friggin idiot. Just because he wore a uniform doesn't mean he's immune from being dismissed for cause.

And, just to avoid an unnecessary dola post -- Larrymcg, be careful that you don't bump into cartman while you get that running jump.

What makes him an idiot? That he dares question the motives and decision making of the Bush administration about the war? Why does his thoughts on the war make him any more of a friggin idiot than your thoughts make you? As you said he is as qualified as any of us but yet he is an idiot and somehow you are not. Please point out what he said that makes him an idiot and why.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Not to quibble, but there is a significant difference between what I said and what you did here. Fact is, your way is almost Marxist. Rich and poor. Bugeousie and Proliteriate. Old and inaccurate, IMO.

Fact is, nothing wrong with making money and raising your 'status.' Its the American way and its why capitalism works. Fact is, most Americans consider themselves part of the 'middle class.' And being middle class is the American dream. Being rich is nice too, but less likely.

I'm not sure where you got the Marxist ideas from, but that's not what I was going with at all. I do believe there is a middle class (although I think it's much smaller than most people consider, just because you think you're middle class doesn't mean you are) and not a society of only rich and poor. I also have nothing against people making money (as long as they are ethical about it).

But its not the rich I'm aiming at so much as the powerful. Those running things, making decisions, making policy. Sometimes they are the rich, often they are career politicians that reach a point where it becomes profitable above and beyond the office held itself and allows them to align themselves with international interests in conflict with American ones.

Again, our views on what's considered rich cloud the discussion. To me, those career politicians are rich. Not Bill Gates rich, but rich nonetheless. Wealth and power go hand in hand.

[Groundhog]

I have to say that I agree with most of what Bubba Wheels has written in this thread. He's summed up my thoughts on the points he's raised much clearer than I could myself.

[stevew]

was the thread starter banned for posting this?

It wasn't the first time this dude has gotten banned either I'm sure.

[Glengoyne]

Or, you know, strongly held personal beliefs, shaped by personal experience.... Are people not allowed to have those anymore?

They certainly are. I just don't think I should lend any special value to them, being that there are obviously some of his statements that are over reaching. Whether or not he believes them or not doesn't really weigh in to my assessment of his views.

[Galaxy]

I have to say that I agree with most of what Bubba Wheels has written in this thread. He's summed up my thoughts on the points he's raised much clearer than I could myself.

I never thought I would say this in my lifetime, but I have to agree.

If you read an article I posted about the sale of rent-controlled housing in Manhattan, it kinda demonstrates the rich vs. poor ideology.

[Galaxy]

I'm not sure where you got the Marxist ideas from, but that's not what I was going with at all. I do believe there is a middle class (although I think it's much smaller than most people consider, just because you think you're middle class doesn't mean you are) and not a society of only rich and poor. I also have nothing against people making money (as long as they are ethical about it).



Again, our views on what's considered rich cloud the discussion. To me, those career politicians are rich. Not Bill Gates rich, but rich nonetheless. Wealth and power go hand in hand.

This is a scary problem we are facing in the future. The problem with politicans, for the most part, aren't wealthy in terms of being entreprenuers or obtaining wealth through hard work, ect.. Kerry was the "richest" candidate ever, but married to a woman who got the Heinz fortune from her late husband. Look at the Kennedy family. People always point to the Bill Gates and Buffetts and tell them they are hoarding all the wealth (and they are only paper rich until they sell the assets and stocks), but you see what they are doing, they still get painted as bad guys.

Our country is built on entreprenuership, free-market and a low-tax environment. I would hate to see this ever change. I hope to an entreprenuer one day.

[Kodos]

JIMG is a great moral compass. All you have to do is believe the opposite of whatever he believes, and you should be doing okay.

[Oilers9911]

The one thing I will give JIMGA credit for is that he doesn't flip flop. You pretty much know what you are getting and he makes no apologies for it and I respect that. However his opinions are so far right that he makes Attila the Hun look warm and fuzzy. I agree with some of what he says but he takes it that extra 8 steps further. I think all that needs to be said about him is said in his signature....because I guess to him tolerance is a terrible sign of weakness.

[Hammer755]

Something does not smell right about that 'open letter'. I would be surprised if Kevin Tillman actually authored it. I wouldn't be surprised if those were his true feelings, just that he would choose to display them in that manner.

Obviously I don't know him, but I read the article about the Tillman brothers and their buddy in SI last month (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/09/05/tillman0911/), and it just gave me the feeling that this would be exactly the kind of thing that both Pat & Kevin Tillman would be opposed to. Snopes shows it as 'Undetermined' at this point.

[Butter]

I think Rabeled has got to be a previously banned poster resurrected.

[stevew]

I think Rabeled has got to be a previously banned poster resurrected.

Spell his name backwards and you'll figure out which prick he was.

[Desnudo]

who is delebar?

[Butter]

Spell his name backwards and you'll figure out which prick he was.

Apparently it doesn't take much to fool me.

[GoldenEagle]

JiMGA has been turning his trolling up lately.

[Oilers9911]

I wouldn't say he is trolling, however I would say he's got a bug up his behind about something because whereas he usually makes intelligent points, lately he has been resorting to childish name calling.

[Kodos]

It'd be nice to see his head explode if the Dems take over one or both sides of Congress. :)

[Subby]

Then I assume you also know that if I find myself needing any shit from you, I'll squeeze your head. In the meantime, you can take a running jump as you go fuck yourself.
These used to be funny, but Jon needs some new material. :)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Some people read what they want to read - I have no idea how you came up with this from what I said.

Ok, I will apologize if you can cite me one instance where someone close to the war criticized it and then they weren't criticized for making it political (or being "trotted out" as you say). Because your complaint/concern is used every time when this happens, it can't be anything less than a condemnation of the criticism in its entirety.

Rather than feel uncomfortable when a family member speaks out, I feel comfortable because I am hearing someone with a personal stake not a blabber mouth from the sidelines.

[Joe Canadian]

I came in here wondering what nugget of insight JIMGA would unveil to the world... I wasn't disappointed.