Can people learn or change their minds?

[Kodos]

It seems like, for the most part, people get entrenched in their viewpoints somewhere in their teens or early twenties, and once their views are set, they will never budge from those viewpoints, no matter what evidence or argument against their view(s) they are presented with. One need only to look at the various political or religious threads on this board to see this phenomenon. Perjury is either totally acceptable (even commendable) or utterly unacceptable depending on the political leanings or the perjurer. All one needs is a convenient rationalization to make it so. A football player can be a total asshole off the field, but if he's on your team and can perform great athletic feats, he's suddenly a great guy.

Aren't we supposed to be smarter than this? Why do we refuse to change our ideas with changing information?

[Dr. Sak]

Aren't we supposed to be smarter than this? Why do we refuse to change our ideas with changing information?

This is just the first thing that pops into my head...But for the most part people do not like to admit when they are wrong.

[albionmoonlight]

The increasing availability of various types of media/blogs/message boards/etc. makes it easy to surround yourself with people who think just like you (whether it be fans of the same team, or people who share the same politics, or people who like the same game console, or whatever).

Spending hours and hours every day in these echo chambers hearing the same ideas repeated forever and ever amen makes it much harder to conceive of a world in which your ideas are not true.

[albionmoonlight]

dola

Also, political folks have gotten very good at attacking the source of ideas and the conduits through which the information flows as hopelessly biased, which helps to add to the echo chamber. For example:

You beleive X is true.
[Someone] presents you with information suggesting Not X.
You do notchallenge your belief of X, but instead run to your echo chamber to report that [Someone] is biased against your position.
The echo chamber echos your report.
You remain convinced that X is true.

I think that that middle step--of first attacking the source of information as opposed to the information on its merits--has always been around, but has increased recently.

[Honolulu_Blue]

It seems like, for the most part, people get entrenched in their viewpoints somewhere in their teens or early twenties, and once their views are set, they will never budge from those viewpoints, no matter what evidence or argument against their view(s) they are presented with. One need only to look at the various political or religious threads on this board to see this phenomenon. Perjury is either totally acceptable (even commendable) or utterly unacceptable depending on the political leanings or the perjurer. All one needs is a convenient rationalization to make it so. A football player can be a total asshole off the field, but if he's on your team and can perform great athletic feats, he's suddenly a great guy.

Aren't we supposed to be smarter than this? Why do we refuse to change our ideas with changing information?

I've changed my mind on a number of things between the ages of say (18-33). My musical tastes changed considerably when I got to college as one example. I also tweaked my views on affirmative action over the last few years. Over the last five years, my views on religion have changed drastically, having gone from a Catholic and to an athiest. I've gone from "nurture" over "nature" guy, to a "nature" over "nurture" (for the most part) belief.

I don't think it's easy for people to change their views. Obviously there is the "admitting you were wrong" hurdle, which is hard to over come, but it takes some real effort to really sit down and try to explore why you think about something the way you do.

To be honest, I don't think I would have done it for a lot of things, if it wasn't for my wife. She really thinks about things and studies things carefully. Her opinions are usually very well researched and considered. If I have an opinion that's a result of sloppy thinking, she'll often challenge me on it and force me to re-consider. I love it. Without her, I doubt I would have really thought too deeply about why I thought about things the way I did and wouldn't have taken the time to really examine them.

[Ksyrup]

I think there's a fundamental issue with appearing weak, and I think changing your position on an issue - particularly one in which you argued so vociferously on a previous occasion - tends to show weakness, in that you are, in essence, admitting you're wrong. And I think most people would rather rationalize the differences between two seemingly incongruous positions than to admit they were wrong, or that they are treating them differently.

[rkmsuf]

vociferously

nice. that's a word I love.

didn't used to so yes I can change my mind.

[Rizon]

Believe in nothing!

[RedKingGold]

Personally, I believe that opinions can change as people age. However, learned behaviors, attitudes, and biases are much harder to crack for many of the reasons stated by albion and HB.

[JeeberD]

¡uʍop-ǝpısdn ʇsod uɐɔ ı ʇnq 'ou

[nilodor]

¡uʍop-ǝpısdn ʇsod uɐɔ ı ʇnq 'ou

:eek:

[nilodor]

Dola:

I think as you get older it takes alot more momentum to get you to change your mind. I guess the most recent movement would be the whole global warming issue. I think when the issue first came out it was more so a cause taken up by younger people. Then around early last year the issue seemed to reach a tipping point where all of a sudden global warming became fact and it seemed that a large portion of the populus believed where just a few months prior the opposite was true. What happened in those months was the environmental issue became hot button, more and more news reports and Al Gore's movie, this seemed to give enough momentum to sway the balance of the argument.

This is a very general statement, but I think the main reason is the older you are the chances are that you have thought a certain way for a long time.

[nilodor]

I think there's a fundamental issue with appearing weak, and I think changing your position on an issue - particularly one in which you argued so vociferously on a previous occasion - tends to show weakness, in that you are, in essence, admitting you're wrong. And I think most people would rather rationalize the differences between two seemingly incongruous positions than to admit they were wrong, or that they are treating them differently.

Then you'd be a flip-flopper and who would want that? :rolleyes:

[Buccaneer]

The increasing availability of various types of media/blogs/message boards/etc. makes it easy to surround yourself with people who think just like you (whether it be fans of the same team, or people who share the same politics, or people who like the same game console, or whatever).

Spending hours and hours every day in these echo chambers hearing the same ideas repeated forever and ever amen makes it much harder to conceive of a world in which your ideas are not true.

The most perfect post possible. No way I could have said it better myself.

[NoMyths]

I consider myself to be an open-minded person to new information, and certainly have adjusted my beliefs and approaches to the world as I've learned more about it. Heck, I used to be a Republican once upon a time. :)

I believe it's dangerous for a person to feel that they know enough about the world to think their ideas are 100% correct. Especially in the Information Age, every person has the ability to know more than any human in history has known. You can tell a lot about a person by how willing and able they are to adapt to new information. If a person just seeks out information that reinforces their own positions, they're not learning -- they're just representing an era of understanding that will inevitably pass.

[John Galt]

I used to be ideologically very libertarian. Now, I have some libertarian leanings, but I abandoned a lot of the ideas that just silly, IMO. I change my mind a lot about things all the time.

I think the most important thing for people changing their minds when it comes to politics is to not be ideologues. Ideology is the enemy of intellectual honesty. Ideology presumes an answer to a question that hasn't even been asked. Unfortunately, modern debate is taken to be a battle of ideologies instead of a battle of arguments.

[Fidatelo]

I change my mind on stuff all the time. Quite frankly I'm pretty easily swayed.

[Ksyrup]

Then you'd be a flip-flopper and who would want that? :rolleyes:

Exactly. Of course, when you're talking about politicos, very often a position is taken not because the person believes it or thinks it is right, but for political gain. So changing that position later, when there is a shift in public sentiment, is a legitimate thing to point out. But for most of us, it's still pointed out as a sign of weakness, something like the standard cross-examination line - "Were you lying then, or are you lying now?"

[Honolulu_Blue]

I change my mind on stuff all the time. Quite frankly I'm pretty easily swayed.

No you're not. You are very set in your ways.

[Fidatelo]

No you're not. You are very set in your ways.

I am?

[Celeval]

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/Celeval/jeebs.png

Hmmm...

[TroyF]

I change my views. I love a good debate because it makes me think. Someone who goes against me and makes great points will cause me to think a lot more deeply about a subject.

Now on some things? They are set in stone. I don't think lying to grand juries is acceptable behavior. Will that ever change? Probably not.

I'm also a person who spends A LOT of time in making my decisions on something. I'll read everything I can get my hands on about certain subjects. I'll look at both sides of them and spend hours doing so. That most certainly makes it more difficult to change my mind about a subject, because I've spent time trying to look at both sides already. (if you don't understand the opposing viewpoint to yours, I'm not sure how strong any belief can be anyway)

[Karlifornia]

Why even come to a message board if you are unable to ever have a change of heart? Sometimes I think I'm right, and it stays that way. Many times, though, I think I'm right, and then someone makes a point that I either never considered, or had never been explained to me in a certain way. And then I think "Huh...I see."

I personally think that it's insecurity. It's like people who go out of their way to brag about anything they possibly can. It's like they want to prove to people that they have some sort of worth, but it just comes off terribly.

[Kodos]

Have I ever mentioned my exceptional hygiene? It really separates me from the lower animals.

[sterlingice]

¡uʍop-ǝpısdn ʇsod uɐɔ ı ʇnq 'ou

He's a witch! Burn him!

SI

[Glengoyne]

¡uʍop-ǝpısdn ʇsod uɐɔ ı ʇnq 'ou

Do I need twenty thousand posts to do that?

It might be worth the effort,

...although you'd probably all get tired of me and have me banned before I got to that point.

[oliegirl]

I have changed my mind about some things, but not things that I consider to be "core beliefs", but I do think it's possible. I just think it takes something "life changing" to make you see that the way you thought isn't necessarily the only way to think. The only example I can think of involves my father.

I was 23 when I got pregnant with my son, not a perfect situation and certainly not what a father wants for his daughter. The first thing he said to me when I told him was "You know what I think you should do", meaning have an abortion. He knew it was something I would never consider, but he said it anyway. 2 or 3 years ago we were talking, and he told me that he regretted saying that every day because my son is such a huge part of his life, and such a wonderful part of his life, that he feels guilty that his first reaction to me being pregnant was to abort it. He's not pro-life, but he's not nearly as pro-choice as he used to be either, and to those that know him, it's a big change.

For him to have ever said that to me, I knew it was something he had thought about, alot...and mulled over before he decided to discuss it. It changed him at a core level, it adjusted his way of thinking and impacted his life on an everyday basis. Aside from something like that happening, I really don't think people ever truly change who they are.

[Drake]

No. I firmly and unequivocally believe that people do not change their minds on anything.

But I'm open to debate on the topic.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I've done it. It's not that hard really. Last month I was a leg man, the month before a tit man, this month it's all ass, baby.

[Izulde]

I'd say I'm fairly malleable all in all, but in my case, changing of beliefs is more a reflection of my being what I like to call the double whammy... bipolar archetypal Gemini ;)

And as a result, I'm going to be much more fluid than most people.

That being said, even I have one or two things I will not ever alter my belief on, barring a miracle.

[Dutch]

It seems like, for the most part, people get entrenched in their viewpoints somewhere in their teens or early twenties, and once their views are set, they will never budge from those viewpoints, no matter what evidence or argument against their view(s) they are presented with. One need only to look at the various political or religious threads on this board to see this phenomenon. Perjury is either totally acceptable (even commendable) or utterly unacceptable depending on the political leanings or the perjurer. All one needs is a convenient rationalization to make it so. A football player can be a total asshole off the field, but if he's on your team and can perform great athletic feats, he's suddenly a great guy.

Aren't we supposed to be smarter than this? Why do we refuse to change our ideas with changing information?

According to the responses in this thread, most people do change their minds. So you're wrong. But will you admit it?

[bignej]

I think most people say they are open-minded but I firmly believe they are wrong

[Lorena]

I change my mind on stuff all the time. Quite frankly I'm pretty easily swayed.

Yup, me too.

I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong either. If I'm wrong, alright, no biggie.

[Fidatelo]

Yup, me too.

I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong either. If I'm wrong, alright, no biggie.

I'm wrong on stuff all the time, and perhaps most importantly (in my eyes), I'm not afraid to just admit I don't know something. It drives me nuts at work (or anywhere really) when clowns can't just say "I don't know" and end up spewing bullshit or double-speak.

I'm still curious why H_B thinks I'm so set in my ways though? Or was that a joke I didn't get?

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'm wrong on stuff all the time, and perhaps most importantly (in my eyes), I'm not afraid to just admit I don't know something. It drives me nuts at work (or anywhere really) when clowns can't just say "I don't know" and end up spewing bullshit or double-speak.

I'm still curious why H_B thinks I'm so set in my ways though? Or was that a joke I didn't get?

It was a lame attempt at a joke that you should be happy for not getting.

You could have said "You're right, I am set in my ways." (Showing you are easily swayed as you said), or you could have said "No, I am not set in my ways. I am easily swayed." (Which would have "proved" your earlier statement wrong).

:)

[TroyF]

I'm wrong on stuff all the time, and perhaps most importantly (in my eyes), I'm not afraid to just admit I don't know something. It drives me nuts at work (or anywhere really) when clowns can't just say "I don't know" and end up spewing bullshit or double-speak.

I'm still curious why H_B thinks I'm so set in my ways though? Or was that a joke I didn't get?

When I was a supervisor in a tech support call center, I always made sure I asked a question the person couldn't get in an interview. If they were really smart, I'd continue asking more difficult questions until they hit one they didn't know.

If they said "I'm not sure, I dunno, Not a clue, etc." they were hired. If they started making crap up, the walked out the door without a job. It was important for me to know that the tech wouldn't make up crap to a customer on the line. Doing that can have really negative effects on an operating system. :)

[Kodos]

According to the responses in this thread, most people do change their minds. So you're wrong. But will you admit it?

I can be wrong sometimes.



Eh, who are we kidding?!? I'm always right!!! :cool:

[Dutch]

Of course, you're not human, so I'm buying it! :)

[Mac Howard]

It bugs me no end (as my signature reveals). It seems to be about the perceived loss of self esteem that goes with admitting that your wrong. I think the process used is selective focus - the moment the incoming info challenges our views we switch off and refuse to hear.

Astonishing really because the philosophy that has transformed our world immeasurably over the last 300 years is essentially "eliminate the error" which you'll never do if you refuse to recognise the error. The philosopher Karl Popper advises that we should "embrace error" but that seems to be beyond most of us at least for the time being.

[Andiamo]

A football player can be a total asshole off the field, but if he's on your team and can perform great athletic feats, he's suddenly a great guy.

Nope, TO will always be an asshole no matter what he does on the field :)

Otherwise, I absolutely believe than people can change if they want to. No pressure or help can make anyone change if the desire doesn't come from that person. Once someone decides to make a change and that person seeks out the help needed, I think that makes changing possible.