State of Console Sports Gaming

[RainMaker]

Maybe I'm just getting old, but every year it seems I'm getting less and less enthused about the console sports games. I see less and less advancement from year to year, and the next gen games are nothing more than the old gen with some pretty graphics.

So I'm wondering if it's just me that things that console sports games are in a pretty bad state right now. We see little to no innovation in the games being made, and less and less choices on a yearly basis. Games are more about which athlete is on the cover and what rappers can be heard on the menu than how the game actually plays. I mean one of the big selling points for Madden this year was the ability to make a friggin virtual ring.

But it goes beyond Madden. Almost all the games on the market use the same engine they did 5-10 years ago. Games like FIFA changed it simply because it got so bad that they had to. It feels like these companies are completely milking us from year to year by slick marketing campaigns.

I just feel that sports console gaming is in a bad spot right now. With the billions pouring into the industry, it just feels like a lot of these games should be farther along than they are. That the reason I buy a new version of a game is because they got the Michigan fight song right this time.

[Young Drachma]

I think they're focused on other stuff. Or they invest money in hype and giving kids money to be pro Madden players, than they are worried about the dude who has a real job and who sits at home and plays to escape from real life for a while.

Innovation takes time and costs money, so they'd rather cut corners.

Welcome to Hollywood.

[EagleFan]

I may be getting old but I agree completely with these statements.

I used to look forward to the NHL game but then they seemed to become more like pinball on steroids. Add the extra controls with the right thumbstick and now you need about 5 hands to really play the game.

Madden is the same way. I only like the right thumbstick when I play my HoF career as the defensive lineman (or when blocking as a receiver).

I like the NCAA game because it seems to be a little slower than Madden so you have a little more time to think.



I guess now I know how Bucc feels.... and get off my lawn you damn kids!!! :D

[Deattribution]

I think 2k are a bit more innovative than EA. NBA2k is one of the best frachises around. They have a good hockey franchise, a so so baseball game and a football game that needs work - but generally they seem headed in the right direction.

EA on the other hand seems to have no grasp on their fanbase and very stagnant ( I know, they still sell millions, so what do I know eh)

[oykib]

I haven't played or bought a major console sports game since te last MVP on the Xbox. I check the "alright boyz..." threads and I always find a showstopper on the first page.

[RainMaker]

I think 2k are a bit more innovative than EA. NBA2k is one of the best frachises around. They have a good hockey franchise, a so so baseball game and a football game that needs work - but generally they seem headed in the right direction.

EA on the other hand seems to have no grasp on their fanbase and very stagnant ( I know, they still sell millions, so what do I know eh)

I agree that 2K is miles ahead of EA in terms of simulation style sports. Maybe for a 14 year old kid who wants a dunk fest, EA is the game to go to though.

But still, how far have the games advanced this year. Look at NBA 2K8. It's a great game, but has $60 of improvement gone into the game this year? Sure they improved some of the problems on defense and offense. The gameplay is a bit tighter. But does that and a slam dunk contest really seem like the same value as a game like Halo 3? While I like the direction 2K goes with their games, I guess I'm just expecting more from year to year. With the amount of money being spent on video games, you'd think they'd have dramatic improvements to franchise mode and gameplay. They still have that silly catch-up AI on fast breaks because they can't program angles correctly.

It's one thing if I'm paying $20 for a yearly update on the game, but $60 is the price of a brand new game built from scratch.

[MJ4H]

There is more innovation in the Wii versions of the EA sports games, at least, than the other versions.

[CraigSca]

Well, when you read 90% of the posts on the respective game boards, you realize the majority of players only care about uniforms anyway. So, EA and 2KSports are giving the people what they want, Barbie dress-up for "big" boys.

[Raiders Army]

I agree that 2K is miles ahead of EA in terms of simulation style sports. Maybe for a 14 year old kid who wants a dunk fest, EA is the game to go to though.

But still, how far have the games advanced this year. Look at NBA 2K8. It's a great game, but has $60 of improvement gone into the game this year? Sure they improved some of the problems on defense and offense. The gameplay is a bit tighter. But does that and a slam dunk contest really seem like the same value as a game like Halo 3? While I like the direction 2K goes with their games, I guess I'm just expecting more from year to year. With the amount of money being spent on video games, you'd think they'd have dramatic improvements to franchise mode and gameplay. They still have that silly catch-up AI on fast breaks because they can't program angles correctly.

It's one thing if I'm paying $20 for a yearly update on the game, but $60 is the price of a brand new game built from scratch.

This is what they should do: If you bring in your copy of Madden 08, you should be able to buy Madden 09 at a discounted price...say $20 next year because this version sucks so bad. Same thing with 10, 11, 12, etc. until they actually innovate the game.

Thinking realistically though, I think at most they'd offer a rebate if you sent in your receipt for Madden 09 and the disc for Madden 08...which you would never get.

[Deattribution]

Madden won't see any real change til people stop buying it. Why put in the additional effort when it's going to sell 4-5 million copies anyway?

Also I think because of that they're scared to do anything that really changes the gameplay because they don't want to alienate their current buyers who obviously don't care that it's just a roster update with new bugs.

[RainMaker]

Madden won't see any real change til people stop buying it. Why put in the additional effort when it's going to sell 4-5 million copies anyway?

Also I think because of that they're scared to do anything that really changes the gameplay because they don't want to alienate their current buyers who obviously don't care that it's just a roster update with new bugs.
Their sales have been pretty lackluster the last few years for Madden. They have to be fairly disappointed in it. But still, when you have a monopoly on something, the product usually goes to crap. EA got pushed in the soccer market hard and actually went in and re-built FIFA to what looks like a respectable game this year.

[RainMaker]

Well, when you read 90% of the posts on the respective game boards, you realize the majority of players only care about uniforms anyway. So, EA and 2KSports are giving the people what they want, Barbie dress-up for "big" boys.
Sadly, you're about right. It's funny how people have huge fits over the shoe color of a team but don't care that the blocking formed bigger pockets in Tecmo Bowl. Not to mention the guys on forums that feel if EA crapped in a box and sold it to them, they'd rate it a 9.4. It's crazy how people will trash a small thing in a game like Halo, but give a free pass to a bug in a sports game that has been around for 5 versions.

[Big Fo]

Another problem I see is that although review scores can be iffy with all types of games, sports games are even worse. People discover a ton of bugs within a few days that go unnoticed in 20-30+ reviews. I'm sure that only having a year to work on the game kills innovativeness as well. Didn't Madden skip a year in the late 90s when the series had declined for a few years running? I doubt we'll ever see that again with the increased money in the video game industry and exclusive licensing deals.

[KWhit]

Their sales have been pretty lackluster the last few years for Madden.


Is that true? I was under the impression that Madden was consistently one of the top selling games every year.

[Eaglesfan27]

Is that true? I was under the impression that Madden was consistently one of the top selling games every year.

It still is one of the top selling games each year, but total number of sales have dropped somewhere in the range of 10% each of the past few years. Of course with higher prices on the next gen system, profits haven't necessarily dropped as much.

[wade moore]

Is that true? I was under the impression that Madden was consistently one of the top selling games every year.

I think he's using the term "lackluster" loosely here... You're definitely right, but Madden's sales numbers have dropped I think in the 5-10% range each of the last few years. It's still one of the top selling games, but their sales are down.

[KWhit]

Gotcha.

[MizzouRah]

I still believe sliders has a lot to do with sports games nowdays. It allows companies to test games less and release games "early".

With that being said, I'm having a blast with:

MLB 2k7
APF 2k8
NHL 08
NHL 2k8

As I get older, I'm just looking for a "fun" game to pass time. When I want accuracy and depth, I turn to text sims.

[Kodos]

I think the football genre is really suffering right now. It's been years since the last truly great one, and the NFL license is almost surely the reason. No competition = no real effort. I would think the bosses at EA have to be pissed about the yearly dropoff in sales though. Maybe they will finally shake things up.

Basketball seems to be in better shape, thanks to the 2k series. I can't speak for other sports, because I don't play baseball, hockey, or racing games.

Speaking broadly, sports gaming sucks right now.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I still believe sliders has a lot to do with sports games nowdays. It allows companies to test games less and release games "early".

Couldn't agree more. While the sliders were something that gamers initially wanted to fine tune the games that didn't quite play as they should, they've now turned into a crutch for both developers and publishers as a way to get games out when they're not nearly ready. Also, the ability to patch is available, but rarely used. Even when EA did issue a Madden patch this year, it didn't address the biggest problems reported by gamers. Why even bother?

[sterlingice]

(have been saying this for years, yet tons of people on this and other boards feel compelled to get Madden, NCAA, etc year after year...)

SI

[TroyF]

I know you guys keep bashing sliders, but I just don't buy it. It's not like things were perfect before sliders. Quite the opposite actually. If all-pro was a little to easy and superstar was difficult, you were screwed. If there was an AI flaw where a RB could break 300 tackles in a game, you were stuck with that as well.

Fact is, the games we play on the consoles are LIGHT years ahead of the games we used to play in terms of simming. I look at a game today and see franchise modes, modes where you can play as a single player, multiple uniform options, realitstic stadiums, etc.

I think the garbage you are attributing to sliders is really as simple as the fact that you've grown up. In all likelihood, I'm like most of you. I played Tecmo Bowl until 4 in the morning. When the Genesis came out, I played more hours of Madden NHL and even Bill Walsh College Football than I care to get into. Could I play those games for the same length of time today? Ummm, NO.

NHL 93 is one of my favorite games of all time, but what did I do in it? Played entire games on the penalty kill because my goal was to make the other guys bleed. A realistic game of hockey? Are you kidding me? Screw that. My best friend and I teamed up in co op to give Gretzky a three hit whiplash that had him bleeding on the ice. We rewinded and watched the play for half the night.

Sorry guys, fact is, the games we remember fondly weren't balanced all that well. A handfull of classics were, but the majority were garbage. Even some of the classics weren't balanced well, they were just fun because we were 14.

My biggest, biggest problems with sliders now? The companies like EA that release sliders that are 100% ineffective. Like this year's Madden. When you turn INT's down to 0, you should get 0 INT's. When you turn it up to 100, anytime a DB gets his hands on the ball it shoulld be an INT. Instead, INT's are high no matter what the hell you do. That's horrible game design, but it isn't the sliders fault.

When used correctly in a game, sliders are a Godsend to people who want to balance the game to their style of play. And the companies who do it right most of the time (like you 2K) release some of the best sports games we've ever seen.

[MizzouRah]

I still HATE sliders, period. A game should play relatively decent out of the box. Granted, ithey have made MLB 2k7 much more enjoyable, but for the sports games I play the most, they are NOT tweakfests.

[TroyF]

I still HATE sliders, period. A game should play relatively decent out of the box. Granted, ithey have made MLB 2k7 much more enjoyable, but for the sports games I play the most, they are NOT tweakfests.

Every single sports game I've played in the last 5 years has had at least some slider tweaks. Even a classic like NBA2K7 that played terrific out of the box required a few slider tweaks to get it right for my style of play. Without those minor tweaks, my enjoyment would have been lessoned. Even for an all time great game.

Thank GOD you do no programming for sports console games. A game without sliders would have to be close to perfection for me to even bother renting it.

[Big Fo]

Sliders were a welcome addition to sports games IMO, and EA would rush games out to beat the deadline regardless of their presence. As TroyF said, they are especially nice when your ability level falls right in the middle of two default difficulty levels, or like how on past Maddens the AI couldn't run the ball for crap.

The games disappoint for a host of other reasons.

[Young Drachma]

I like the sliders. It gives the games more lasting value for me.

[MizzouRah]

Every single sports game I've played in the last 5 years has had at least some slider tweaks. Even a classic like NBA2K7 that played terrific out of the box required a few slider tweaks to get it right for my style of play. Without those minor tweaks, my enjoyment would have been lessoned. Even for an all time great game.

Thank GOD you do no programming for sports console games. A game without sliders would have to be close to perfection for me to even bother renting it.

The majority of people love the addition of sliders, I'm in the minority.

FWIW, I don't mind MINOR slider tweaks, but when a game becomes so screwed up that I'm visiting OS to see if the slider guru's have a new set out, the game gets traded in.

[TroyF]

The majority of people love the addition of sliders, I'm in the minority.

FWIW, I don't mind MINOR slider tweaks, but when a game becomes so screwed up that I'm visiting OS to see if the slider guru's have a new set out, the game gets traded in.


That's not a SLIDER problem, that's a developer problem. Without sliders, the same developer would have released a chunk of garbage. How many really good games have you played that have required a complete and total overhaul of the sliders? For me? None. If I have to spend hours tweaking them, the game is a coaster before I figure it out.

You are blaming sloppy, idiotic programming on a tool that is actually helpful. And it isn't like sloppy, idiotic programming wasn't there before the advent of sliders. Sorry mizzou's, I wish it were that simple. I wish we could blame bad game design on one simple thing like you guys seem to want to do. Bad game development existed before sliders and will exist long after them.

If you think I'm advocating someone spend their first thirty days with a game on sliders, you are missing the point entirely. Again, those games don't get playtime even if they get the sliders fixed. They suck. I have a better feature for you guys to blame. Instead of sliders, blame the start button.

[Icy]

The main problem with football games this year is not that they need some slider tweaking to be accurate. I really wish that was the only problem as there are awesome sliders makers that research a lot into the games to make them as sim as possible.

The real problem is that things don't work as advertised and are poorly tested.

Huge amount of turnovers that not any slider can tweak (and i can't understand why setting the INT slider at zero still produces INTs, it at zero should mean that every time a defender is going to caught a pass, it should be dropped, it would look ugly, but that is what INT=zero should mean). A working INT slider would fix this problem, same about fumbles.

But what about the incredible bug of not being enough players available in some positions after 3 or 4 years??? WTF??? nobody in EA played more than one season in franchise mode?? this is inadmissible. Same about progression not working etc.

The problem is lack of interest on anything besides eye dressing stuff, like animations, unis or amber visors. I think also that online gaming killed franchise modes and computer AI programming. Most of Madden players just want to play against their buddies online or in a home party, so why to develop a good AI? Sadly i enjoy way more playing solo vs a good AI than vs another person, as most of the people just cheese to win and doesn't care about realism.

I'm enjoying NBA2k and MLB the show a lot, but i would love a football game as good as those two.

[Eaglesfan27]

Every single sports game I've played in the last 5 years has had at least some slider tweaks. Even a classic like NBA2K7 that played terrific out of the box required a few slider tweaks to get it right for my style of play. Without those minor tweaks, my enjoyment would have been lessoned. Even for an all time great game.

Thank GOD you do no programming for sports console games. A game without sliders would have to be close to perfection for me to even bother renting it.

Completely agree. NBA2k7 is good out of the box. With a few minor slider tweaks, it is a great game. Ditto for College Hoops 2k7. This year's NCAA Football on the 360 comes so close to being a great game for me. If the sliders could just solve the turnover issue, it would be a great game. Recruiting is well done, the sim engine is well within the realm of believability. As it is, it is still the best console football game in at least 3 or 4 years in my opinion and I'm overlooking the flaws and having fun with it.

[Galaxy]

It still is one of the top selling games each year, but total number of sales have dropped somewhere in the range of 10% each of the past few years. Of course with higher prices on the next gen system, profits haven't necessarily dropped as much.

Remeber, EA is paying a fortune for the NFL license. I'm sure the development costs/license fees (to Sony, Microsoft, ect) are the same % as with the past generations. I've wondered if the net profits on the Madden series are lower this year.

I think the problem is the licensing deals. NCAA actually is a great game, with a few expections of the turnovers and option (needs to be re-worked, a QB shouldn't be able to throw it when his body is half-twisted with two defenders on him).

[MizzouRah]

That's not a SLIDER problem, that's a developer problem. Without sliders, the same developer would have released a chunk of garbage. How many really good games have you played that have required a complete and total overhaul of the sliders? For me? None. If I have to spend hours tweaking them, the game is a coaster before I figure it out.

You are blaming sloppy, idiotic programming on a tool that is actually helpful. And it isn't like sloppy, idiotic programming wasn't there before the advent of sliders. Sorry mizzou's, I wish it were that simple. I wish we could blame bad game design on one simple thing like you guys seem to want to do. Bad game development existed before sliders and will exist long after them.

If you think I'm advocating someone spend their first thirty days with a game on sliders, you are missing the point entirely. Again, those games don't get playtime even if they get the sliders fixed. They suck. I have a better feature for you guys to blame. Instead of sliders, blame the start button.

MLB 2k7

Ok, that's the only game I can think of.. but like I said, when sliders are more important than the game, I'm done.

(I agree with you Troy for the most part, but I will always hate sliders - more difficulty settings would be fine with me)

[Calis]

I get excited for the new NBA 2k game and the College Hoops games, but that's about it really. I used to look forward to the newest Winning Eleven more than any other one but I was really disappointed by their last effort and it doesn't sound like this next version is much either.

I'm sadly probably going to buy FIFA the day it comes out, something I've never done before, but I've heard relatively good things so far and I need a soccer game on the 360 one way or the other.

I find myself playing sports games that are 2 and 3 years old over the newest ones anyway. I'm still using NFL 2k5 when I get the football urge, playing the College Baseball game on the Xbox for baseball, and Winning Eleven 9 for soccer, so maybe I am falling behind in the sports console market.

[Galaxy]

I think 2k are a bit more innovative than EA. NBA2k is one of the best frachises around. They have a good hockey franchise, a so so baseball game and a football game that needs work - but generally they seem headed in the right direction.

EA on the other hand seems to have no grasp on their fanbase and very stagnant ( I know, they still sell millions, so what do I know eh)

How long does 2k have the MLB license? The problem with the football game is the lack of a NF/NCAA licnese. It has to be tough to make a game without thoe.

[BradS]

I would count down till NCAA released every year. And I suppose it is still a good series of sorts. But when I found text sims and most I've found are pretty good, I lost all desire for console/video sports games.

Every now and again I think of getting back to it, but I catch myself. Thinking of the Madden tourneys with players posting basketball like scores kills it for me, the ease in which players can and will exploit weaknesses in video games. The incredible graphics can be enticing, but it all boils down to the simulation.

[RainMaker]

I know you guys keep bashing sliders, but I just don't buy it. It's not like things were perfect before sliders. Quite the opposite actually. If all-pro was a little to easy and superstar was difficult, you were screwed. If there was an AI flaw where a RB could break 300 tackles in a game, you were stuck with that as well.

Fact is, the games we play on the consoles are LIGHT years ahead of the games we used to play in terms of simming. I look at a game today and see franchise modes, modes where you can play as a single player, multiple uniform options, realitstic stadiums, etc.

I think the garbage you are attributing to sliders is really as simple as the fact that you've grown up. In all likelihood, I'm like most of you. I played Tecmo Bowl until 4 in the morning. When the Genesis came out, I played more hours of Madden NHL and even Bill Walsh College Football than I care to get into. Could I play those games for the same length of time today? Ummm, NO.

NHL 93 is one of my favorite games of all time, but what did I do in it? Played entire games on the penalty kill because my goal was to make the other guys bleed. A realistic game of hockey? Are you kidding me? Screw that. My best friend and I teamed up in co op to give Gretzky a three hit whiplash that had him bleeding on the ice. We rewinded and watched the play for half the night.

Sorry guys, fact is, the games we remember fondly weren't balanced all that well. A handfull of classics were, but the majority were garbage. Even some of the classics weren't balanced well, they were just fun because we were 14.

My biggest, biggest problems with sliders now? The companies like EA that release sliders that are 100% ineffective. Like this year's Madden. When you turn INT's down to 0, you should get 0 INT's. When you turn it up to 100, anytime a DB gets his hands on the ball it shoulld be an INT. Instead, INT's are high no matter what the hell you do. That's horrible game design, but it isn't the sliders fault.

When used correctly in a game, sliders are a Godsend to people who want to balance the game to their style of play. And the companies who do it right most of the time (like you 2K) release some of the best sports games we've ever seen.

I agree that we are light years ahead of where we were in 1993. But are we light years ahead of where we were in 2002? Sure the graphics are prettier, but not much else has changed. Same engines, same gameplay, same presentation. We have companies pumping more and more into video games these days, yet we are getting less and less improvement from year to year.

All we are getting from year to year is some gameplay tweaks (for better or worse), an updated roster, and a feature that we may or may not use. There is no innovation to the games, no major changes, just the same old crap from year to year. I think sports gaming evolved exponentially from 1997-2002. It seems to be completely stagnant now. These games should be much farther along than they are.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

That's not a SLIDER problem, that's a developer problem. Without sliders, the same developer would have released a chunk of garbage. How many really good games have you played that have required a complete and total overhaul of the sliders? For me? None. If I have to spend hours tweaking them, the game is a coaster before I figure it out.

You are blaming sloppy, idiotic programming on a tool that is actually helpful. And it isn't like sloppy, idiotic programming wasn't there before the advent of sliders. Sorry mizzou's, I wish it were that simple. I wish we could blame bad game design on one simple thing like you guys seem to want to do. Bad game development existed before sliders and will exist long after them.

If you think I'm advocating someone spend their first thirty days with a game on sliders, you are missing the point entirely. Again, those games don't get playtime even if they get the sliders fixed. They suck. I have a better feature for you guys to blame. Instead of sliders, blame the start button.

Ummmm, I think most people are agreeing with you. Sliders aren't inherently bad and certainly aren't being cited as the problem. The problem is that the developers now rely on gamers to fix with sliders what the developers should be fixing on their own. The problem is that even the sliders don't fix some of the problems because the developers have allowed the games to slip so badly.

[TroyF]

Couldn't agree more. While the sliders were something that gamers initially wanted to fine tune the games that didn't quite play as they should, they've now turned into a crutch for both developers and publishers as a way to get games out when they're not nearly ready.

This is your post from above b-ball. No, I don't agree with it AT ALL. Sliders aren't being used as a crutch. I don't think for a second they are a way to get games out early. The games with poor slider implementation and poor balance always had poor play balance. The rushed games were always rushed, long before sliders. (anyone remember Earl Weaver 2 on the PC?)

[TroyF]

I agree that we are light years ahead of where we were in 1993. But are we light years ahead of where we were in 2002? Sure the graphics are prettier, but not much else has changed. Same engines, same gameplay, same presentation. We have companies pumping more and more into video games these days, yet we are getting less and less improvement from year to year.

All we are getting from year to year is some gameplay tweaks (for better or worse), an updated roster, and a feature that we may or may not use. There is no innovation to the games, no major changes, just the same old crap from year to year. I think sports gaming evolved exponentially from 1997-2002. It seems to be completely stagnant now. These games should be much farther along than they are.

I think we are light years ahead of 2002. NBA2K is one of the, if not the greatest graphical sports sim ever made. Ditto for the college version of the series which many on this board play to death. Mizzou loves NHL '07 and I think he'd say it was light years ahead of any NHL game made in 2002. As for baseball, we've had The Show released sinse 2002 and the 2006 version is probably one of the top 2 or 3 baseball games of all time. (console based of course) There has even been innovation in football. The campus legend mode in NCAA this year is worth the price of admission alone. The recruiting is better than it ever has been.

I'm not saying we are close to perfection here. There is a lot of room for improvement. Again, I think it's developer decisions that kill us. And again I'll go back to 2K. Did the engine for NBA2K8 change much? When you look at the videos, not really. Same style. but what were the additions? Being able to see your play as you call it on the floor is HUGE for fans of the series. They tweaked many of the animations and tweaked some of a contact logic. They worked on the rebounding logic. Now, I haven't played the game yet, but if these are the main tweaks they made and they work great? I'm thrilled with it.

Hell, even a lot of the innovations in Madden are actually pretty good. They were just implemented horribly. So do I think we are better than 2002? Hell yes. Much, much better. YMMV.

[wade moore]

Ummmm, I think most people are agreeing with you.Except Mizzourah who I think Troy is talking to directly much of this time...

[MizzouRah]

Except Mizzourah who I think Troy is talking to directly much of this time...

The confusion of the Mizzou's.. :D

Troy and I disagree alot. :p

[Desnudo]

Has EA Sports ever been innovative in advancing realism in their sports games? Ever since the first ambulance ran over a player, it's been about flashy features. At this point, if there's going to be something revolutionary in gameplay, it'll have to come from sport besides NFL football and definitely won't come from a company like EA.

If only the guys who designed the physics for Pro Evo soccer could spend a year on Madden.

[Galaxy]

I think we are light years ahead of 2002. NBA2K is one of the, if not the greatest graphical sports sim ever made. Ditto for the college version of the series which many on this board play to death. Mizzou loves NHL '07 and I think he'd say it was light years ahead of any NHL game made in 2002. As for baseball, we've had The Show released sinse 2002 and the 2006 version is probably one of the top 2 or 3 baseball games of all time. (console based of course) There has even been innovation in football. The campus legend mode in NCAA this year is worth the price of admission alone. The recruiting is better than it ever has been.

I'm not saying we are close to perfection here. There is a lot of room for improvement. Again, I think it's developer decisions that kill us. And again I'll go back to 2K. Did the engine for NBA2K8 change much? When you look at the videos, not really. Same style. but what were the additions? Being able to see your play as you call it on the floor is HUGE for fans of the series. They tweaked many of the animations and tweaked some of a contact logic. They worked on the rebounding logic. Now, I haven't played the game yet, but if these are the main tweaks they made and they work great? I'm thrilled with it.

Hell, even a lot of the innovations in Madden are actually pretty good. They were just implemented horribly. So do I think we are better than 2002? Hell yes. Much, much better. YMMV.

What's The Show? I though 2k had an exclusive license with Major League Baseball (title of the series)?

[Galaxy]

I think we are light years ahead of 2002. NBA2K is one of the, if not the greatest graphical sports sim ever made. Ditto for the college version of the series which many on this board play to death. Mizzou loves NHL '07 and I think he'd say it was light years ahead of any NHL game made in 2002. As for baseball, we've had The Show released sinse 2002 and the 2006 version is probably one of the top 2 or 3 baseball games of all time. (console based of course) There has even been innovation in football. The campus legend mode in NCAA this year is worth the price of admission alone. The recruiting is better than it ever has been.

I'm not saying we are close to perfection here. There is a lot of room for improvement. Again, I think it's developer decisions that kill us. And again I'll go back to 2K. Did the engine for NBA2K8 change much? When you look at the videos, not really. Same style. but what were the additions? Being able to see your play as you call it on the floor is HUGE for fans of the series. They tweaked many of the animations and tweaked some of a contact logic. They worked on the rebounding logic. Now, I haven't played the game yet, but if these are the main tweaks they made and they work great? I'm thrilled with it.

Hell, even a lot of the innovations in Madden are actually pretty good. They were just implemented horribly. So do I think we are better than 2002? Hell yes. Much, much better. YMMV.

What's The Show? I though 2k had an exclusive license with Major League Baseball (title of the series)?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What's The Show? I though 2k had an exclusive license with Major League Baseball (title of the series)?

Just about everyone except EA can publish a baseball game. MLB 07: The Show is published by Sony. A lot of people consider it to be the best baseball series currently available.

[TroyF]

The confusion of the Mizzou's.. :D

Troy and I disagree alot. :p


See the mizzou b-ball quote above. I'm disagreeing with both of you. I don't think we are that far off to be honest, but I don't quite understand how sliders are bad for the genre.

As far as the rest of our disagreements, I used to remember you as someone who cared about the simulation of the game. Somewhere along the line, you've flipped into looking as much at graphics as anything else. Nothing wrong with that, but if that's the focus, we are naturally going to be wildly different in our ideas. I hated NHL '07 and find the 2K baseball game unplayable. One was your sports game of the year and you've played the 2k game to death.

Nothing wrong with that. All an opinion thing. :)

[TroyF]

Just about everyone except EA can publish a baseball game. MLB 07: The Show is published by Sony. A lot of people consider it to be the best baseball series currently available.

I think there is some rule in baseball where only 2K can puplish a cross-console title. Anyone can publish a single system title if they choose to do it.

MLB: The Show is clearly the best of the baseball genre right now. I thought this years was a bit dissapointing, but it was still far better than the 2K game. (IMHO, you will find others who have a differing opinion, but I think the majority side with The Show as being the best)

[Eaglesfan27]

Actually, I believe the rule is no one (except 2k) can make a 3rd party baseball game, but each company can make a 1st party baseball game for its own console. In any case, it was designed to shut down EA's baseball series and was a direct counterstrike for EA signing the NFL exclusivity deal.

[Lathum]

I got Madden 07 last year for christmas and didn't even open it

[Deattribution]

This is your post from above b-ball. No, I don't agree with it AT ALL. Sliders aren't being used as a crutch. I don't think for a second they are a way to get games out early. The games with poor slider implementation and poor balance always had poor play balance. The rushed games were always rushed, long before sliders. (anyone remember Earl Weaver 2 on the PC?)

It's naive to think that sliders aren't used as a crutch and a way to get games out early when in this day and age all the game bugs are released with a 'we will patch it later' mentality.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Actually, I believe the rule is no one (except 2k) can make a 3rd party baseball game, but each company can make a 1st party baseball game for its own console. In any case, it was designed to shut down EA's baseball series and was a direct counterstrike for EA signing the NFL exclusivity deal.

That sounds right. I just couldn't recall the actual agreement.

[TroyF]

It's naive to think that sliders aren't used as a crutch and a way to get games out early when in this day and age all the game bugs are released with a 'we will patch it later' mentality.


Again. . . in those cases, the games aren't worth playing anyway and those same publishers would have published and released dog doo doo before sliders were even considered. Take the turnovers in Madden. the sliders didn't fix the problem. So it clearly wasn't rushed out with the idea that sliders would save them because the sliders do NOTHING to save them.

The patch mentality? That's been around for a long, long time on the PC. It's just now making it's way to consoles and it sucks. That can be attributed to rushing a title out the door.

[TroyF]

Thanks EF, I couldn't remember the exact parameters.

[MizzouRah]

As far as the rest of our disagreements, I used to remember you as someone who cared about the simulation of the game. Somewhere along the line, you've flipped into looking as much at graphics as anything else. Nothing wrong with that, but if that's the focus, we are naturally going to be wildly different in our ideas. I hated NHL '07 and find the 2K baseball game unplayable. One was your sports game of the year and you've played the 2k game to death.

Nothing wrong with that. All an opinion thing. :)

I want "NEXT GEN" and that includes graphics.

NHL 07 was praised by many sports gamers and MLB 2k7 has turned out to be a great game since the patch and a great set of sliders over at OS. (without the sliders it's still a decent game out of the box)

The focus for me is "fun". Am I having fun? I can deal with some goofy stats and what not here and there.

[Galaxy]

I wonder if Microsoft will put a baseball game.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Take the turnovers in Madden. the sliders didn't fix the problem. So it clearly wasn't rushed out with the idea that sliders would save them because the sliders do NOTHING to save them.

You're assuming that the Madden developers knew:

1. That there was a significant turnover issue.

2. That they knew that the sliders would not fully fix the problem.

Both of those are pretty drastic assumptions. IMO, neither of them hold water.

[Eaglesfan27]

You're assuming that the Madden developers knew:

1. That there was a significant turnover issue.

2. That they knew that the sliders would not fully fix the problem.

Both of those are pretty drastic assumptions. IMO, neither of them hold water.


Those are both definitely valid assumptions from a gameinformer interview. They said before the game came out that this was a significant problem that could not be fixed by sliders and that they were working on a patch. I don't have a link readily available right now, but this was talked about on OS.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Those are both definitely valid assumptions from a gameinformer interview. They said before the game came out that this was a significant problem that could not be fixed by sliders and that they were working on a patch. I don't have a link readily available right now, but this was talked about on OS.

If that is the case (and I certainly believe you wouldn't post it otherwise), it's downright deplorable. Knowingly releasing a game that is flawed at best or even broken at some level is simply unacceptable. I'm guessing EA didn't offer a refund to those who purchased a game that they knew was inherently flawed upon release. Interestingly enough, they still don't have the patch out to fix the problem.

[TroyF]

You're assuming that the Madden developers knew:

1. That there was a significant turnover issue.

2. That they knew that the sliders would not fully fix the problem.

Both of those are pretty drastic assumptions. IMO, neither of them hold water.


EF already slammed this one down, but let me add something: the assumption is valid even without a statement from EA saying they knew.

It took less than 2 full games for people to see a turnover problem was occuring. It was so apparant that the only way EA could not have known is if there were ZERO play tests for the game. If that would have been the case, sliders would NOT HAVE BEEN THE PROBLEM. The problem would have been the lack of play testing by a large company. That means the game would have been rushed out the door with/without sliders. That's bad development, not a rush job because sliders could fix the problem.

As it is, EA did know about the problem and admitted it even before the release of the game. (because review copies of the game were cropping up with the problem and people were asking what was going on)

[TroyF]

I want "NEXT GEN" and that includes graphics.

NHL 07 was praised by many sports gamers and MLB 2k7 has turned out to be a great game since the patch and a great set of sliders over at OS. (without the sliders it's still a decent game out of the box)

The focus for me is "fun". Am I having fun? I can deal with some goofy stats and what not here and there.

Don't disagree with all of that. Thing is, for me fun now also = some form of realism. I couldn't have fun with Tecmo anymore. (other than a few hours of retrospection)

The NHL 07 thing showcases the type of gamer I am. Yes, it was praised by many as having a great control scheme and was "fun." The graphics were outstanding. But when I played the game, it didn't feel like hockey at all. Maybe it was one of those games that would have grown on me had I did more than just rent it. It didn't hook me enough to even get that far.

Give me average graphics and make it feel like the real thing and I'll have plenty of fun. Even if a few stats are off base. :)

[RainMaker]

I may be totally wrong on this, but when I play certain games, it almost feels like it's being made by people who don't watch or are fans of the sport. Take Madden for example. It just feels like it was made by someone who was told what football should be like. It doesn't flow right and they miss so many major nuances of the game. It takes playing AP2K for 5 minutes to realize they do pickup those nuances of the game.

It is kind of the feeling you'd get playing the old High Heat back in the day. You just felt the guys making it were passionate about the sport.

[MizzouRah]

Don't disagree with all of that. Thing is, for me fun now also = some form of realism. I couldn't have fun with Tecmo anymore. (other than a few hours of retrospection)

The NHL 07 thing showcases the type of gamer I am. Yes, it was praised by many as having a great control scheme and was "fun." The graphics were outstanding. But when I played the game, it didn't feel like hockey at all. Maybe it was one of those games that would have grown on me had I did more than just rent it. It didn't hook me enough to even get that far.

Give me average graphics and make it feel like the real thing and I'll have plenty of fun. Even if a few stats are off base. :)

I would agree with that first part for sure.

I will say Tecmo Super Bowl didn't feel like a real football game to me, but it was innovative and definitely fun to play. That's all I want from a developer, give me some innovation (swing stick, shot stick, the presentation from NFL 2k5...) and have a fun game to play and I'm happy.

When I use a joystick, I expect a game to be different than real life.. who wants perfect expected results?

EA has become lazy with football because they can. You see what they are doing with hockey and basketball don't you?

[RainMaker]

Another year and really haven't seen much ground made in sports gaming. I did pick up NHL 09 and it is fantastic. Unfortunately we lost the College Hoops series which was by far my favorite. Everything else seems pretty stagnant. Football seems dead still.

[Atocep]

I spent more time with MLB 08 than any console sports game in the past 10 years and I'll be buying 09 the day its released so I wouldn't call baseball on the consoles stagnant. Well, unless you're a 360 owner.

I quit purchasing just about every other sports series on consoles for the reasons stated in this thread, though (lone exception being NCAA Football 09).

[MizzouRah]

360 owners that haven't played MLB 2k7.. should.. It's still fun to play...

[RainMaker]

I spent more time with MLB 08 than any console sports game in the past 10 years and I'll be buying 09 the day its released so I wouldn't call baseball on the consoles stagnant. Well, unless you're a 360 owner.

I quit purchasing just about every other sports series on consoles for the reasons stated in this thread, though (lone exception being NCAA Football 09).

The only reason I picked up a PS3 the other day.

I can remember waiting for release date of all the sports games when I was younger. Now I don't even care. I still play video games, but there are so few sports games that peak my interest these days.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I spent more time with MLB 08 than any console sports game in the past 10 years and I'll be buying 09 the day its released so I wouldn't call baseball on the consoles stagnant. Well, unless you're a 360 owner.

I quit purchasing just about every other sports series on consoles for the reasons stated in this thread.

:+1:

[Icy]

I'm having a good year on console sports games overall.

- MLB08 on PS3 has been really great.
- NHL09 is my worst addiction in years
- FIFA09 is a good game too

I have not played any basketball title this year but i have read good things about 2k offline (online seems to have a lot of problems).

Both madden and ncaa were disappointing with the early bugs, so i just stopped to play them and did not even try them post patch.

My only disappointment this year were the football franchises.

[BrianD]

I spent more time with MLB 08 than any console sports game in the past 10 years and I'll be buying 09 the day its released so I wouldn't call baseball on the consoles stagnant. Well, unless you're a 360 owner.

I quit purchasing just about every other sports series on consoles for the reasons stated in this thread, though (lone exception being NCAA Football 09).

This is the one game that makes me sad I went with a 360 over the PS3. I played the PS2 versions of these games for more hours than I'd care to admit. Sadly I'm not willing to buy a PS3 for basically one game and BluRay isn't enough of a draw for me yet. I will be reading reviews and impressions with envy though.

[Big Fo]

My 2008 in console sports games:

Pro Evo 2008 (Wii) - quite good, love the revolutionary controls. Building up attacks from the back has never been so fun in a soccer game, dragging your players arouned to create space, aiming exactly where you want your through balls to go, etc.

MLB the Show 08 (PS3)- pretty good, great graphics. The games took too long for me though. Sold it soon after Power Pros 2008 came out.

NCAA Football 08 (PS3) - not bad, I had skipped the last few years so this one provided a good amount of fun in dynasty mode. I never played online so the online dynasty bugs didn't bother me. Short passes were too easy and deep balls too hard to pull off IMO. Sold it shortly after Madden/Head Coach game out.

MLB Power Pros 2008 (Wii) - Adding MLB Life mode on top of Success Mode was a great addition to last year's game. I love the hitting, I just wish the AI teams threw more balls so I could draw walks. Sim stats were still bad as well. Better loading times and quicker games than MLB the Show.

Madden/Head Coach 09 package (PS3) - Madden had sick graphics but the gameplay didn't do much for me. I might have played a half dozen games since buying it. Despite a number of quirks and a month or so waiting for the patch I really enjoyed Head Coach 09. I should have just waited for that to be released on its own.

NHL 09 (PS3) - The first hockey game I bought since NHL 98 on the PC or something long ago. I'm really not all that knowledgeable when it comes to hockey so I can't judge how realistic things are compared to baseball/football/soccer but I had a lot of fun with it. Sometimes it was hard to avoid shooting when I wanted to deke and vice-versa though.

It was a pretty good year IMO. I still want to try NBA2k9 but I'd likely get that for the PC due to price/mods anyway.

[Travis]

At one point I was buying NCAA/Madden/NHL/The Show on release day and was willing to take a look at the 2K series.

Now I'm down to just NHL and the Show. I'm really impressed with this year's NHL game (loved superstar mode in Madden/NCAA so seeing it well implemented in NHL was a very nice upgrade to the series). I have the latest in the Fight Night line but if the new UFC game is good (have to figure there'll be a few issues with it given how new the line will be) then that'll be my last venture into the Fight Night series.

Overall though, as others have been mentioned, just finding it harder and harder to justify paying full price for a roster upgrade. I'm guessing at this point I'll likely update my Madden game every 3-4 years and might even drop back to picking up the Show and NHL every other year unless there is some huge upgrade that gets great reviews.

[Sweed]

I only play solo games and I'm pretty much down to a four game rotation that gets me through the year.

The Show and NBA 2k on console. FM and OOTP on the pc.

I did buy Madden again this year and liked the way the game set the level of play for me (can't even recall what they call in off the top of my head). Never had to touch a slider and had good games. However The Show and NBA 2k9 are at a whole different level than Madden when it comes to being realistic.

I also picked up NHL (2k not EA)08 when they were marked down last year and had some fun with it. I've come to realize though that I just don't have time to put into more than the four games at the top of my post. I just end up spreading myself too thin and don't complete anything. Sticking with my main four I find time to actually complete seasons. Sure just one each for NBA 2k and The Show but at 82 and 162 games respectively that's a pretty big accomplishment when you consider the time it takes. While OOTP and FM give me my career fix.

[MizzouRah]

My 360 gets a ton of playing time during the week and especially on weekends.

Besides, NCAA 09, MLB 2k7, and NHL 09.. there's Far Cry 2, Left 4 Dead, GOW 2, and Rock Band 2.. and that's just the tip of what's available.

[Sweed]

My 360 gets a ton of playing time during the week and especially on weekends.

Besides, NCAA 09, MLB 2k7, and NHL 09.. there's Far Cry 2, Left 4 Dead, GOW 2, and Rock Band 2.. and that's just the tip of what's available.

Oh, yeah Rock Band:D It is the one game I play with the wife, and kids if they are home, on the console as kind of a change up to my sports game addiction.

[rjolley]

Right now, CH 2K8 and NBA 2K8 are the only games I play on my 360. I do have plans to pick up NBA 2K9 and NCAA 09 soon, and maybe Madden 09 if I enjoy NCAA enough that I want to see how my players do in the pros.

I do miss having CH around. It and NBA 2K# were the only definite buys every year for the past 4-5 years. I definitely get my money's worth with those games.

[RainMaker]

College Hoops 2K is a huge loss to the sports gaming market. It is the game I've played the most over the years. While the NBA version is good, I enjoyed playing the college seasons more.

[ColtCrazy]

I used to buy Madden the day it came out, year after year. I stopped that in 07 and just played my older Madden. When I got a 360 this summer, I bought the new Madden and recently got NCAA. Graphically, they are a step up, but they are basically the same as the old xbox versions. I won't be getting the 2010 versions I don't think.

I did play a buddy's Wii Madden and I just loved the fact you could draw your own play (but HATED the stupid celebration dances you do after big plays). If they could add that to the 360, I'd be thrilled, but that's too much to ask for I know.

I've done the same with FIFA, just buying a version every few years. I haven't got one for the 360 yet, but the reviews seem good.

[RainMaker]

I used to buy Madden the day it came out, year after year. I stopped that in 07 and just played my older Madden. When I got a 360 this summer, I bought the new Madden and recently got NCAA. Graphically, they are a step up, but they are basically the same as the old xbox versions. I won't be getting the 2010 versions I don't think.

I did play a buddy's Wii Madden and I just loved the fact you could draw your own play (but HATED the stupid celebration dances you do after big plays). If they could add that to the 360, I'd be thrilled, but that's too much to ask for I know.

I've done the same with FIFA, just buying a version every few years. I haven't got one for the 360 yet, but the reviews seem good.

The sad thing is that Madden had a more complex custom playbook system 20 years ago than it does today. I remember building some sweet playbooks and plays back in the day on the computer.

[rjolley]

The sad thing is that Madden had a more complex custom playbook system 20 years ago than it does today. I remember building some sweet playbooks and plays back in the day on the computer.
Yep. It was around '85-'86 because a friend of mine and I built the 46 defense with the Bears.

[RainMaker]

Yep. It was around '85-'86 because a friend of mine and I built the 46 defense with the Bears.

I built some really cool option plays out of some wacky formations. Was a ton of fun.

[moriarty]

I've done the same with FIFA, just buying a version every few years. I haven't got one for the 360 yet, but the reviews seem good.

FIFA 09 is a blast on the 360. The career mode needs some improvements, but gameplay is great and 10 vs. 10 online via xbox live is tremendous fun (even when playing w/ idiots).

I also enjoyed HeadCoach this year for what it was.

Everything else, blah.