S.F Giants fans

[bbor]

can you guys tell me more about Cain and Linceman?

The Blue jays seem to be ready to deal Alex Rios for either of these guys and i just can't see it.

[MikeVic]

I thought it was that Lincecum pitcher that was talked about on here this past season. Supposed to be good.

[bbor]

I thought it was that Lincecum pitcher that was talked about on here this past season. Supposed to be good.

Ya that's his name...my bad.

[Travis]

Oh would that suck hugely. Am I missing some information on Rios that has them continually looking to move him?

[sooner333]

They are both really good pitchers...would be bad to lose either one, but I guess since the Giants don't have very many guys who can hit right now, it might be a good needs deal.

[Crapshoot]

No frigging way. They deal Cain or Lincecum for Rios, and I become an A's fan. 5 years of service time (4 left for Cain) vs 3 for Rios? Rios is a very good player, but not a great one - and makes no sense for the Giants in this deal. I'd gladly give up Lowry and spare parts/prospects - but not the big 2.

[Fighter of Foo]

They're both fantastic. I have no idea why the Giants are considering giving up either of them for Rios. Cain is a flyball power pitcher, think Kerry Wood pre-injury. Lots of K's and flyballs, though not as extreme as Wood. Probably not going to improve past his current level which is very, very good.

Lincecum was only drafted 2? years ago and got to the majors very very quickly. Unorthodox delivery led many teams to see him as an ijury risk and he dropped to 10th? in the draft whatever year it was. Excellent control, over a K an inning and the potential to be better than Cain. Only downside is the supposed injury risk.

Giants are supposedly asking for someone like Janssen or Marcum to be included which I guess would make it passable from the Giants side.

[Fighter of Foo]

Answering my own questions here...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7528844

"Rios, three years away from free agency, plays right field for the Jays. The Giants view him as a franchise-type center fielder. He is coming off a season in which he hit .297 with 24 home runs and 85 RBI. He also stole 21 bases and drew 55 walks against 103 strikeouts."

The Giants are wrong, btw.

[SackAttack]

Speaking as a Dodger fan, this would be the greatest trade ever if it happens, and I would dance in the streets for weeks. :D

[dawgfan]

Unorthodox delivery led many teams to see him as an ijury risk and he dropped to 10th? in the draft whatever year it was. Excellent control, over a K an inning and the potential to be better than Cain. Only downside is the supposed injury risk.
Funny thing about his "unorthodox delivery" - baseball people must have real short memories, because Lincecum's delivery was patterned to a large extent on Sandy Koufax. It's not a perfect match, but they both have very long strides, tremendous upper body/hip separation creating a lot of torque, and high angle arm slots. Lincecum's front leg is more controlled than Sandy's, and he doesn't dip his pitching side shoulder down as far as Sandy leading into his stride, but the deliveries are otherwise very similar.

Both of the guys I've seen that do pitching mechanics analysis on the web agree that they like Lincecum's mechanics (actually, Gomez positively gushes about him while O'Leary is a little more cautious):

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ThePitchingMechanic/Archive/ThePitchingMechanic_200704.html#Tim%20Lincecum:%20Analysis%20Analysis
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/mechanics/discussion/controlled_fury_tim_lincecum/

With any pitcher you have to worry about strain to their shoulders and elbows - it's just the nature of the beast. But with respect to Lincecum, he uses his whole body to generate his velocity, appears to have good timing and doesn't get his elbow too high leading up to his release point.

Maybe his shoulder and elbow won't be able to hold up to the torque he puts on them with his high-energy delivery, and maybe his size really will make him more likely to break down sooner, but at this point the biggest issue with Lincecum is his control.

[Travis]

Answering my own questions here...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7528844

"Rios, three years away from free agency, plays right field for the Jays. The Giants view him as a franchise-type center fielder. He is coming off a season in which he hit .297 with 24 home runs and 85 RBI. He also stole 21 bases and drew 55 walks against 103 strikeouts."

The Giants are wrong, btw.

I seriously beg to differ on your appraisal of Rios' potential. I'm not disputing how good the proposed guys coming back are, but given how many guys really stepped up last year, the Jays really don't need pitching right now (unless they're replacing Burnett in which case they'd need a proven #1 or 1b type guy). Losing what he brings in the field and at the plate (I'd say his speed on the base paths, but they don't utilize him enough that way) would far outweigh the gains made on the mound given the arms that could be put out there out of their currently signed players.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If the Giants actually made a deal like that I would have to think that the front office had either gone insane or was trying to get fired.

[Atocep]

1.) Lincecum isn't going anywhere. If there Giants were to even consider trading one of the two it would be Cain and I don't see it happening. Both are legit #1 guys with Lincecum having best pitcher in baseball potential.

2.) Rios is at least 15 years too young to play center for a Sabean team. Even Randy Winn still has 2-3 years before he reaches his prime.

[Crapshoot]

If the Giants actually made a deal like that I would have to think that the front office had either gone insane or was trying to get fired.

Jon,
I don't believe you're familiar with Brian "I'm a Fucking Idiot" Sabean - he of the famous AJ deal, as well as the guy who traded Jeremy Accardo for Shea Hillenbrand, gave up a 1st round pick intentionally for Michael Tucker, and gave Zito $126 million to be our 4th best SP.

[Crapshoot]

1.) Lincecum isn't going anywhere. If there Giants were to even consider trading one of the two it would be Cain and I don't see it happening. Both are legit #1 guys with Lincecum having best pitcher in baseball potential.

2.) Rios is at least 15 years too young to play center for a Sabean team. Even Randy Winn still has 2-3 years before he reaches his prime.

I don't doubt 1, but the scary thing is that the rational Giants sources (ie, not the national ones) are saying Lincecum is on the table. I've already purchased my rifle.

[sooner333]

I think Brian Sabean is still living off of the deal to rent Alvarez, Hernandez, and Darwin for half a season to get to the playoffs and lose to the Marlins in '97. The more I think about this trade potential, the worse I feel about it. It's going to be a long year for a Giants fan anyway next season, why trade one of our two best pitchers.

[TroyF]

I got a chance to see Linceecum live last year. If they trade him, they are simply out of their minds.

[Vince]

Yeah, Rios is just not nearly good enough to consider trading one of these guys. TINSTAAPP and all, Lincecum has amazing written all over him, and Cain was phenomenal last year. Sure, we need offense...but we better get a hell of a lot more return than Rios if we're trading one of these guys.

Honestly, now that Cabrera is off the market, I don't want to see either of them move at all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Brian "I'm a Fucking Idiot" Sabean -

Well, you do raise a valid point here.

What's kind of scary is that Lincecum for Rios might very well top all of the examples you mentioned.

[MikeVic]

Yeah, Rios is just not nearly good enough to consider trading one of these guys. TINSTAAPP and all, Lincecum has amazing written all over him, and Cain was phenomenal last year. Sure, we need offense...but we better get a hell of a lot more return than Rios if we're trading one of these guys.

Honestly, now that Cabrera is off the market, I don't want to see either of them move at all.

On TSN here at least, they were talking to some analyst and Glaus was brought up... so a trade like Rios and Glaus for Lincecum. The analyst didn't think something like that would happen because then the Jays would lose too much offense. I haven't heard about Cain in a deal until I read this thread.

[Crapshoot]

Well, you do raise a valid point here.

What's kind of scary is that Lincecum for Rios might very well top all of the examples you mentioned.

Yup.

As of right now, I'm emailing Cam to see what kind of loopholes the NRA has so I can acquire something quickly...... :D

[Crapshoot]

I got a chance to see Linceecum live last year. If they trade him, they are simply out of their minds.

I love Matt Cain, but Tim Lincecum is a guy I go to the park to watch, you know? I bought tickets for his debut, and made an effort to go to every Timmah game I could. Sabean has abso-fuckinglutely no clue on how to build a team, and I worry that he doesn't get that Cain and Timmah are the two people Giants fans are exciting about. I would have bitched and moaned to kingdom come about a Cabrera trade, but at least you're getting a HOF talent there - here, you're getting a solid, above-average OF.

[TroyF]

I'd pay to watch him pitch again. Whoever said he has the stuff to be the best pitcher in the game is dead on. Doesn't mean he'll develop it, but it'll be fun as hell watching to see how far he takes it.

The game I saw was his second start I think. He threw a solid 7 innings that night, but I really didn't care about the actual numbers. He's young and is going to be a bit up and down for a bit. What I saw was his stuff and his composure on the mound. The kid can flat out play. You don't trade guys like that until you determine you can't pay him. (like Santana)

You don't even think about trading that kid now. Were I a GM, he'd be untouchable.

[Crapshoot]

Troy,
I figured you might have seen the Rockies game where he stuck out 13 - it was just amazing watching him pitch - his curveball seemed to be on a yo-yo, and he was hitting 97 in the 7th. That motion ads to the appeal - how the hell do you pick up the ball from that?

[Maple Leafs]

OK, see now I want this trade to happen, and I'm going to end up disappointed.

Thanks, jerks.

[Mr. Sparkle]

What worries me most is, given the apparent lack of interest in Lowry, Sabean will get all antsy in his pantsy and make this deal. I really like Rios, but not nearly enough to give up Cain or Lincecum. As others have said, Lincecum is captivating-when you sit down to watch one of his starts, you know there is a good possibility of seeing something amazing happen. And Cain like the proverbial bulldog on the mound. Plus, he's even younger than Lincecum.

Dammit Sabean, you'd been saying all the right things this offseason. I know Bochy admires Rios from afar, and I understand that you always have to kick the tires on a deal, but at the end of the day, DON'T DO IT!!!!!!

[ISiddiqui]

Holy crap... the Giants are thinking of trading Cain and Lincecum? Minaya get on the phone!!! Give Sabean whatever prospect you can find down there!

[SackAttack]

I don't think they're trading them for prospects, ISiddiqui.

Maybe you can convince 'em to part with one of them for Ryan Church!

[Young Drachma]

This would make me a very happy Jays fan.

[Rizon]

The Giants only look for hitters who strike out a ton and walk never.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think they're trading them for prospects, ISiddiqui.

Maybe you can convince 'em to part with one of them for Ryan Church!

DONE! ;)

[clintl]

Just to echo what the others said - the Giants would be idiots to trade either Cain or Lincecum.

[BishopMVP]

Reportedly right now it's straight up Lincecum for Rios. Jays want Cain instead of Rios, but will leave it up to the Giants to pick which one. This is ridiculous. If this happens, the AL East will be stacked. The Jays rotation will be very good and even Tampa will have pitching to match the young hitters that should develop by the time they move into that sailboat stadium of theirs. The Orioles.... well, the first 4 teams will be good!

[SackAttack]

Where's my dancing shoes?

[Crapshoot]

Must. kill. Sabean.

I'm not even joking - I simply won't give a fuck about the Giants anymore if this goes through. I explained my fandom with the Giants to a friend tonight, and suggested the word "abusive relationship" is perhaps the most accurate.

[Atocep]

I've read a little bit about this. John Heyman at cnnsi says Sabean would much rather keep Cain than Lincecum and said there's serious discussion about Rios for Lincecum straight up. BP confirmed it, but didn't have anything to add.

[Atocep]

Alex Rios is also the type of player I can see Sabean overvaluing. He has really pretty traditional stats, but when you dig a bit deeper you see that he's a nice player, but nothing to build a team around.

[PilotMan]

The Giants have fans?

[Vince]

The Giants have fans?
We prefer the term masochists, but yes.

[Logan]

At least you guys are getting an all star outfielder for your stud, can't miss pitching prospect. I got Victor Zambrano.

[sooner333]

The one question I have about Lincecum is whether his delivery is one that is hard to play against the first couple times around but he loses effectiveness after that. I mean, Willis was a beast his first half season in the bigs and the Marlins won the WS. Since then he's been a decent, but not great pitcher and got rocked last season for over an over 5 ERA. That being said, I really hope this trade doesn't go down...I'd rather have Lincecum and see what Davis can do. Or Lewis.

[stevew]

Are the Giants that poor? I mean, you could sign a guy like Rowand who'll probably produce 90% of Rios, and still get to keep Lincecum. This trade sucks for the Giants bad.

[Fighter of Foo]

Well you don't want Rowand, but yeah.

Pitch F/X article on Lincecum...

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/anatomy-of-a-player-tim-lincecum/

[jeheinz72]

I'll echo the sentiments of becoming an A's fan if Sabean does this deal.

[Crapshoot]

We prefer the term masochists, but yes.

I was going to say sadomasochists, but the point is the same. I cannot think of a Giants fan who thought bringing back Sabean was a good idea.

[dawgfan]

The one question I have about Lincecum is whether his delivery is one that is hard to play against the first couple times around but he loses effectiveness after that. I mean, Willis was a beast his first half season in the bigs and the Marlins won the WS. Since then he's been a decent, but not great pitcher and got rocked last season for over an over 5 ERA. That being said, I really hope this trade doesn't go down...I'd rather have Lincecum and see what Davis can do. Or Lewis.
While I haven't stepped into the batter's box to face him, I'm pretty sure Lincecum's effectiveness is primarily about the velocity on his fastball (consistently around 95+, up to 99), the large speed difference between his fastball and his changeup (10+ MPH) and his big breaking curveball. There's certainly some deceptiveness to his delivery as he hides the ball well into his delivery, but he's also delivering outstanding quality pitches.

While part of the issue with Willis may be batter familiarity with his funky delivery, he's also lost some arm speed. His delivery appears slower, and it's resulting in a drop in his velocity and less break on his breaking balls.

[IMetTrentGreen]

Not a Giants fan, but I can say that I've gone out of my way to watch Giants baseball twice: anytime during Barry Bonds' three year streak where he was crushing everything at which he swung, and to see Lincecum pitch. If Sabean approves this he should be fired on the spot.

[MikeVic]

According to the Jays, nothing has really happened on this:

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071204&content_id=2317267&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor

[Atocep]

The Giants are asking the Yankees about Matsui now. This is type of player I'd expect Sabean to after. No word on what they're offering but I'm willing to bet it involves Lowry.

I think Sabean is in denial about needing to rebuild. Either that or he realizes that he has no clue how to rebuild a team is simply going to keep doing the same thing until he's fired.

[Glengoyne]

I'm a season ticket holder for the Grizzlies, the Giants' Tripple A team in Fresno, and I'm a big fan of both Lincecum and Cain.

I can't say I'd be behind this.

[Rizon]

I'll echo the sentiments of becoming an A's fan if Sabean does this deal.

It's not any better over here. We love guys with insane OBP, but who can't hit worth a lick. And we love utility OFs and IFs, so much so that we use them as starters.

[clintl]

It's not any better over here. We love guys with insane OBP, but who can't hit worth a lick. And we love utility OFs and IFs, so much so that we use them as starters.

Yeah, but at least you have a farm system.

[Rizon]

Yeah, but at least you have a farm system for the rest of the league.

Correct. :D

[kingfc22]

Just to echo what the others said - the Giants would be idiots to trade either Cain or Lincecum.

YES! Please do not trade either of these guys.

[sooner333]

Well, Sabean says Cain and Lincecum are off the block after the Rowand signing. That much is good news.

[sooner333]

For the record: Thank God.

[JeeberD]

Since when does bbor start BASEBALL threads?

[bbor]

College football is next :D