How do you define spousal abuse?

[Passacaglia]

I feel like I've always thought it should be pretty easy to tell when spousal abuse has occurred, and always thought that if I knew someone who had been abused, I'd freak out. But I'm being confronted with a situation that seems more like a gray area -- maybe it's because it's the first time I've actually been close to potential abuse. Anyway, I'd like to hear some definitions of abuse, see how many of the definitions this case fits, then get some more discussion going. How would you define it?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I feel like I've always thought it should be pretty easy to tell when spousal abuse has occurred, and always thought that if I knew someone who had been abused, I'd freak out. But I'm being confronted with a situation that seems more like a gray area -- maybe it's because it's the first time I've actually been close to potential abuse. Anyway, I'd like to hear some definitions of abuse, see how many of the definitions this case fits, then get some more discussion going. How would you define it?

I can't see how there's even a grey area regarding physical abuse. If one spouse hits another spouse, that's spousal abuse. People may give reason to justify striking another person, but there's really no justification.

Now, if you're talking about verbal abuse, then there's some form of grey area as they're causing mental anguish, but I'm not sure that's any less hurtful than physical abuse. If anything, it could be argued that it's can be even worse.

[KWhit]

If a spouse hits another spouse, then it's abuse.

Unless the bitch deserved it.

[Drake]

Don't even get me started on "psychological", "emotional" and "verbal" abuse. Yes, these can exist, but I'm convinced that 95% of the time, they're really catchphrases (mostly women) use to get out of relationships.

Why are guys so much more comfortable with saying, "You know what? I just don't dig you as much as I used to. I'm out of here." without having to come up with a reason how/why the chick mistreated them to the point where they *had* to leave.

And yes, I realize that there are tons of folks with Family of Origin issues that tend to get them stuck in "abusive" relationships that they "can't" end because of unhealthy relationship modeling during their formative years. All I can say is this: if the relationship is toxic and you can't put your big boy/girl pants on and get out of it -- or get yourself healthy enough to find the strength to get out of it -- stop blaming everyone but yourself for your ongoing unhappiness.

Bottom line is that we teach people how to treat us by what we accept. The boundaries you set with others determine how they'll interact with you.

[Drake]

dola...

I want to stress that I'm also talking about relationships between adults here. I don't doubt the validity of psychological/emotional/verbal abuse in some parent-child relationships.

[JeeberD]

Run, lurker, run!

[BrianD]

Defining abuse by example is difficult because it can take so many forms. Striking another person is an easy example, but it ignores plenty of pushing, grabbing, twisting and other forms of contact. Any contact done in anger could constitute abuse.

The verbal component is very real and it is also hard to define by example. Constant yelling, degrading and mocking can be classified as abuse too. In general, it is a "I know it when I see it" type of thing.

[Noop]

If she bleeds then its abuse.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Don't even get me started on "psychological", "emotional" and "verbal" abuse. Yes, these can exist, but I'm convinced that 95% of the time, they're really catchphrases (mostly women) use to get out of relationships.

Why are guys so much more comfortable with saying, "You know what? I just don't dig you as much as I used to. I'm out of here." without having to come up with a reason how/why the chick mistreated them to the point where they *had* to leave.

And yes, I realize that there are tons of folks with Family of Origin issues that tend to get them stuck in "abusive" relationships that they "can't" end because of unhealthy relationship modeling during their formative years. All I can say is this: if the relationship is toxic and you can't put your big boy/girl pants on and get out of it -- or get yourself healthy enough to find the strength to get out of it -- stop blaming everyone but yourself for your ongoing unhappiness.

Bottom line is that we teach people how to treat us by what we accept. The boundaries you set with others determine how they'll interact with you.

Thanks, Dr. Phil!

[st.cronin]

I think defining it is not the problem - some mixture of cruelty and narcissism in a partner yields abuse. I guess the problem is recognizing it, because witnesses are always on the outside of a relationship, not privy to the real workings of what's going on.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If a spouse hits another spouse, then it's abuse.

Unless the bitch deserved it.

If she bleeds then its abuse.

Ah, good ole spousal abuse humor... Shit never gets old!

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm pretty much on the same train of thought that Mizzou rolled out I think.
I'll probably only add that mental abuse almost certainly extends beyond verbal to include non-verbal emotional abuse; i.e. psychological abuse like use of intimidation, fear, guilt, etc. as a means of manipulation.

As to how to define the difference, I'd either have to go with the old quote about porn ("I'll know it when I see it") or defer to more learned minds for a more technical determination of when the line is crossed between "normal" back & forth in a relationship versus something that qualifies as "abusive".

[Eaglesfan27]

I think anyone who doesn't believe there is psychological or mental abuse between adults is naive. I've seen couples where there was clear psychological abuse in which the wife (and I've seen one case of the wife psychologically abusing the husband) was terrified by a variety of things her husband did, but he never laid hands on her. I don't think there is any clear pat answer you can give to define psychological abuse, as every situation is different.

As far as physical abuse or sexual abuse, those are much easier and I think BrianD hit it on the head: Any contact that is the result of anger is a form of physical abuse. Obviously, there is a huge spectrum of severity of physical abuse, but people usually escalate up the scale if they don't recognize it as a problem and take steps to rectify the problem.

[Drake]

Thanks, Dr. Phil!

Am I missing something, or are you just being a dick?

[RendeR]

Am I missing something, or are you just being a dick?


You're missing a lot based on your posts. See Eagles' post for some confirmation that you may wish to rethink your position on abuse beyond the physical range.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Am I missing something, or are you just being a dick?

Nope!

But, if you want, please read EaglesFan27's post above for a more detailed explanation. Thanks.

[RendeR]

And Pass:

Without knowing the situation you're referring to and the context that it was in its really hard to define a situation for you. Honestly anytime one person is intimidating, controlling or injuring another person in a relationship its pretty much abuse.

It can be verbal, body language, or even mere eye contact sometimes depending on the overall relationship between the two people.

[Drake]

I didn't say they don't exist. I just sincerely believe that normal patterns of disagreement and/or failing relationships are often categorized as as forms of "abuse" where no abuse is actually occurring.

Edit to add: I should probably supply some context for my opinions. My wife is bipolar. For much of our marriage, her bipolar disorder was characterized by periods of instantaneous, extreme rage. She'd flare up, say the most cruel and insensitive things, rant, slam doors, stomp around...and then an hour later, apologize for her behavior, be completely contrite, etc. It was very intimidating behavior, and I spent a long time feeling like I was walking on eggshells around her to keep her from exploding.

By most definitions, her behavior was textbook psychological/emotional/verbal abuse, and vis-a-vis her relationship with our children, I *did* finally tell her that I thought her behavior constituted abuse and she needed to get some help, because I was tired of cleaning up the messes she left behind.

But for me? Her ability to be abusive stopped where my willingness to accept abuse began. When I stopped accepting abusive behaviors (i.e., stopped walking on eggshells for her benefit), it stopped being abuse, because I stopped integrating her behaviors into my worldview. I realized that I had the option to walk out the door any time I'd had enough. The moment I started standing up for myself was the moment her behavior toward *me* started to change.

Now, when she goes into an explosive rage toward me, I walk out of the room (which really, really pisses her off :) ) or I stop her in mid-rant and say something like, "Would you like to try that again in a more respectful tone?"

[DanGarion]

Did you go to an S&M party with close friends?

[RendeR]

Perhaps, and I understand wht you're saying, but I have a hard time believing people would cry "abuse" frivolously knowing just how ostricizing that label can be for people in this country/world.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic of Human nature, who knows.

[Drake]

I tried to add this to my post above, but the board hung on my update.

Edit to add: I should probably supply some context for my opinions. My wife is bipolar. For much of our marriage, her bipolar disorder was characterized by periods of instantaneous, extreme rage. She'd flare up, say the most cruel and insensitive things, rant, slam doors, stomp around...and then an hour later, apologize for her behavior, be completely contrite, etc. It was very intimidating behavior, and I spent a long time feeling like I was walking on eggshells around her to keep her from exploding.

By most definitions, her behavior was textbook psychological/emotional/verbal abuse, and vis-a-vis her relationship with our children, I *did* finally tell her that I thought her behavior constituted abuse and she needed to get some help, because I was tired of cleaning up the messes she left behind.

But for me? Her ability to be abusive stopped where my willingness to accept abuse began. When I stopped accepting abusive behaviors (i.e., stopped walking on eggshells for her benefit), it stopped being abuse, because I stopped integrating her behaviors into my worldview. I realized that I had the option to walk out the door any time I'd had enough. The moment I started standing up for myself -- rather than just sucking it up and being quietly resentful in the name of marital harmony -- was the moment her behavior toward *me* started to change.

Now, when she goes into an explosive rage toward me, I walk out of the room (which really, really pisses her off :) ) or I stop her in mid-rant and say something like, "Would you like to try that again in a more respectful tone?"

[RendeR]

Drake, I understand what you're saying but what you describe is in essence "overcoming abuse" you found a way to stop letting it affect you and took control of the situation.

People trapped in an abusive relationship cannot or HAVE not reached that point where they mentally and emotionaly hit the "this has gone far enough" wall. Sometimes the people you say are using it as an excuse to get out of a relationship are doing just that, they're finding that the only way they can escape it is to end the relationship altogether.

[Drake]

I think that's valid, RendeR. I guess I just know too many people who describe their ex-boyfriend/husband or ex-girlfriend/wife as "abusive" for reasons like "he didn't pay enough attention to me, and I felt neglected...it was emotional abuse" or "sure, I cheated on her, but when she started calling me really shitty names when she found out, she was verbally abusing me, and that's where I drew the line".

Not all expressions of anger or disagreement constitute abuse. Sometimes anger that makes one party feel like crap because of their actions/behavior is perfectly appropriate. I think that emotionally mature people grasp the difference...but there are a great many emotionally immature folks wandering around the planet.

And sometimes, I think people misconstrue the behaviors of others as abusive because they don't like the way that behavior feels toward them, when the behavior isn't *about* them at all. If you can empathize with the other, sometimes what seems like abuse in expression (i.e., inappropriately outward directed anger) really isn't abuse because the person who "feels" like they're receiving it comprehends that they're not really the target. KWIM?

In other words, in my ideal world, folks like EF27 apply labels like "psychological abuse" after studying a relationship's dynamics rather than folks lightly tossing off "abuse" as shorthand for "unhappy or unfulfilled in my relationship".

[BrianD]

There are plenty of people that do throw around the word "abuse" as shorthand for any number of unhappy situations. People tend to use hyperbole quite often...just ask any teenager who "hates" their parents because they aren't allowed to go to a certain party. All this really does is cloud the issue and desensitize people to the word "abuse". It is still a very real thing and a very real danger, but you are right in that calling something abuse and acting on it should be done carefully. It is very easy to claim abuse and get people in all kinds of trouble that never completely goes away even if claims of abuse turn out to be false.

[chesapeake]

A couple of points. Your real world example, Drake, much better frames your objections. I'm glad you added it. But I think it is important to note the genders involved here. I am making the assumption that you are physically bigger and stronger than your wife and thus have significant power to mitigate any physical harm she may attempt against you. If that is correct, then your own situation is better than what most women experience.

Powerlessness in an abusive situation happens in cases with women that do not typically happen in cases with men because the threat of physical force -- whether explicit or implied -- is usually there and they do not have the physical ability to defend against it. Further, the threat of force is often backed by a threat to hunt down the woman and kids should she try and leave. So, not only does the woman have to find the opportunity and courage to escape and seek help, she has to have absolute confidence that once she does escape, her support system will be able to give her protection against the abuser.

Given the regularity with which you see husbands killing their estranged spouses on the news, that sort of confidence is understandably tough to find.

Anyway, Pass, if you have any concerns, you should talk (anonymously if you wish) with a domestic violence professional that can help you get a grasp of what is going on and what you can really do about it. I recommend the national domestic violence hotline: www.ndvh.org (http://www.ndvh.org). There is a page on that site that gives a little information on how friends and family can be helpful in this situation. You can talk to a live body at 1-800-799-SAFE.

[Honolulu_Blue]

A couple of points. Your real world example, Drake, much better frames your objections. I'm glad you added it.

+1

[Drake]

I hear you, chesapeake. I want to note one more time, however, that I'm only talking about psychological/emotional/verbal abuse -- essentially, behavioral patterns where physical abuse has not been perpetrated or directly implied. (If the potential abuser hasn't ever implied that they'd resort to physical violence, then I think it should be off the table. If they've made threats, then bring it into the conversation, by all means.) But choosing not to act for your own psychological health because you're *afraid* your spouse *might* turn into a bunny boiling nut job creates an unfair climate. The potential abuser can't prove something they wouldn't have done.

I've seen both of my wife's nieces accuse their estranged fathers of abuse -- one of physical abuse, and one of sexual abuse. Both accusations were false. Both accusations ruined these poor guys after they'd spent six months in jail awaiting trial before the girls admitted that they were lying about it.

I look at anecdotes like that and just have to think that in the absence of evidence to support it "I was afraid that he might threaten me" shouldn't have a place in consideration of an abuse cycle, because it too often says more about the "victim" than the "abuser".

But if threats have been made and/or physical abuse has been established in the past (even in a previous relationship), then everything I've argued up this point should be nullified. Then the victim is concerned over a credible threat.

In the absence of a credible threat, the "victim" should be looking closely at themselves to ask why they're letting their fear run their lives, what exactly it is that they're afraid of, and why they need the overarching fear of being physically abused to prevent themselves from improving their situation.

I'm not saying this is easy. Again, I'm fully recognizing that some people have familial histories that make it incredibly difficult for them to deal with their relationship dynamics in a healthy way. But that's why God made guys like EF27 -- to teach people without the proper toolset what *is* healthy and normal.

[Drake]

dola...

It occurs to me that if I'd added all of these caveats to my original post, people probably wouldn't have been so confused.

:D

[Raiders Army]

I can't see how there's even a grey area regarding physical abuse. If one spouse hits another spouse, that's spousal abuse. People may give reason to justify striking another person, but there's really no justification.

I'd add that intent to harm or an intent to "punish" would have to be there...just to be more specific.

However, isn't there a gray area in physical abuse? What about pushing? That's not striking another person but it could be physical abuse (beyond the whole pushing down the stairs thing).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'd add that intent to harm or an intent to "punish" would have to be there...just to be more specific.

However, isn't there a gray area in physical abuse? What about pushing? That's not striking another person but it could be physical abuse (beyond the whole pushing down the stairs thing).

Still black and white to me. Any contact with negative intent is physical abuse. I have a temper, but I also have a wife that firmly draws the line regarding any type of contact. I've never touched her in a negative manner and she's never touched me in a negative manner in 14 years (8 married). Good spouses respect each other.

[BrianD]

However, isn't there a gray area in physical abuse? What about pushing? That's not striking another person but it could be physical abuse (beyond the whole pushing down the stairs thing).

Like most things...it depends. I still think most forms of contact when done in anger could be qualified as abuse. Even if it isn't physical abuse, it could still be considered psychological abuse. The push may not cause any physical harm or damage, but it is a pretty solid threat of more to come.

I'm not sure how to quantify this next statement either, but I think there should be some level of repeated action before things qualify as abuse. People do make mistakes and should have the ability to correct them. Naturally that ability to correct mistakes depends on the severity of the mistake...

[DanGarion]

Surprised there isn't a "How do you defend spousal abuse" parody thread yet....

[st.cronin]

I would have gone with "how do you define self-abuse?"

[Lathum]

My sister was physicaly and emotionaly abused by her ex-husband who is now dead.

IF you are close enough to this person you will know it is abuse, the problem with abuse is the victim is usualy the last one to realize there is a problem.

[Raiders Army]

I'm not sure how to quantify this next statement either, but I think there should be some level of repeated action before things qualify as abuse. People do make mistakes and should have the ability to correct them. Naturally that ability to correct mistakes depends on the severity of the mistake...

I'd agree with that. If the same thing happened over and over again, it may not be construed as physical abuse but definitely psychological abuse.

On a different sort of train of thought, I know that abuse is abuse period but when is it "okay"? As an extreme example, let's say a father sexually molests his child. Is it okay for the mother to take a baseball bat to him? It's still spousal abuse, but I'd say it's justified. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that, but it would be "okay" to commit spousal abuse in this instance.

Then again, is it really spousal abuse or is it simple assault and battery? Or does the assault and battery fall underneath the vast umbrella of spousal abuse?

[Passacaglia]

Thanks for all the posts, PMs, and IMs.

I guess it sounds like by most definitions, it seems that he abused her last week, but she'd been abusing him for at least the almost three years they've been married, and probably longer.

RA made a good point when he asked about pushing -- that's what happened, he pushed her. But it was into a wall. But the wall was lined with suitcases. But then he picked her up and "placed" (her word) her on the bed.

When she was telling me about it, I was starting to get worked up, and was thinking that that's not okay at all. But she said she hits him all the time. That kind of dazed me a little -- I've always felt that this kind of thing shouldn't be gender-specific (and kudos to everyone who threw out a definition without mentioning gender). But when actually being near a situation, it's hard to stick with that idea, especially since he's like a foot taller than her.

As for verbal/emotional abuse, I'm sure there's a ton of that going on, but it's hard to know about that, since, like many mentioned, I'm not really there to witness any of it. And my hunch is that she's doing more of it than he is.

So given that she's probably more emotionally abusive, and admittedly more physically abusive, is it okay to get freaked out about HIM being physically abusive?

[Drake]

What you're saying is that she deserved a good beat down? ;)

My wife used to hit me -- early on when we got married. Not with the intent to hurt me, but if I said something she didn't like or embarrassed her in public, she'd slug me in the arm as hard as she could. (I'm 6'2" 200lbs. She's 5'1", 125 lbs.)

Still, the way she did it seemed disrespectful to me, so I asked her to stop. She said that hitting me shouldn't matter because she couldn't hurt me. I countered with, "Men hit one another when they're angry -- we even do it sometimes when we know that the other guy is bigger than us and will likely kick our ass. If you want to get angry and act like a man, you need to accept the consequences of being a man, which is that if you hit someone bigger than you first, you need to be prepared physically and emotionally to get hit back. Equal rights come with equal responsibility. So if it's okay for you to hit me to express your dissatisfaction, it's okay for me to hit you."

It took some time and my repeating that boundary, but she did eventually stop hitting me.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So given that she's probably more emotionally abusive, and admittedly more physically abusive, is it okay to get freaked out about HIM being physically abusive?

They desparately need to work with a professional to deal with the situation. It's not going to get better if they don't address the situation quickly. It will only escalate. They're both at fault, but the husband just by his larger physical size, is more likely to do something that could cause more problems. The worst part is that both of them are likely to be very resistant to seeking help as they both probably don't think there's anything abnormal with the situation.

[RendeR]

Thanks for all the posts, PMs, and IMs.

I guess it sounds like by most definitions, it seems that he abused her last week, but she'd been abusing him for at least the almost three years they've been married, and probably longer.

RA made a good point when he asked about pushing -- that's what happened, he pushed her. But it was into a wall. But the wall was lined with suitcases. But then he picked her up and "placed" (her word) her on the bed.

When she was telling me about it, I was starting to get worked up, and was thinking that that's not okay at all. But she said she hits him all the time. That kind of dazed me a little -- I've always felt that this kind of thing shouldn't be gender-specific (and kudos to everyone who threw out a definition without mentioning gender). But when actually being near a situation, it's hard to stick with that idea, especially since he's like a foot taller than her.

As for verbal/emotional abuse, I'm sure there's a ton of that going on, but it's hard to know about that, since, like many mentioned, I'm not really there to witness any of it. And my hunch is that she's doing more of it than he is.

So given that she's probably more emotionally abusive, and admittedly more physically abusive, is it okay to get freaked out about HIM being physically abusive?


From what you're describing pass I'd seriously talk to her about the fact that perhaps she's pushed him far enough that his frustration with her antics over the years is hitting its limit and she needs to really think carefully about things going forward. I don't think its really the best thing to get in the middle of it, but if she's coming to you with all this then maybe its a good sign that she's looking for some outside opinion.

Situations like this bother me because it seems like something so minimal, but if in fact he's hitting a subconscious "I've had enough" line then it could escalate badly on both sides very easily.

Good luck with it man.

[chesapeake]

Based on your brief story, they need professional counseling more than anything else right now. I'd try to encourage them to move in that direction.

[Radii]

On a different sort of train of thought, I know that abuse is abuse period but when is it "okay"? As an extreme example, let's say a father sexually molests his child. Is it okay for the mother to take a baseball bat to him? It's still spousal abuse, but I'd say it's justified. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that, but it would be "okay" to commit spousal abuse in this instance.

Unless you're talking about a situation where the mother catches the father in the act, and is acting in self defense or immediate protection of herself/child, this isn't ok or justified at all. If the mother finds out that this is going on and takes a baseball bat to the guy when he comes home from work, no one in the world will feel sorry for him, but she's still committed a crime.

[Radii]

So given that she's probably more emotionally abusive, and admittedly more physically abusive, is it okay to get freaked out about HIM being physically abusive?


The short answer to that seems a very obvious yes. Realizing that her emotional abuse may be leading to a breaking point that caused this seems important at some point, but in the end that doesn't justify him becoming physically abusive as a response.

Its obviously a very tough situation and will be tough to navigate through for you as a friend, and for them as a couple. As RendeR mentioned, from your description this sounds like an extraordinarily volatile situation that could easily escalate into something really bad. Good luck, I'm certainly not qualified to offer any sort of real advice past that, I sympathize with you though.

[BrianD]

So given that she's probably more emotionally abusive, and admittedly more physically abusive, is it okay to get freaked out about HIM being physically abusive?

It is OK to get freaked out about him being physically abusive, but you really should be freaked out by her being physically abusive as well. People tend to be more concerned when a bigger man is doing the abusing, but it really should be equal. If the big man knows that hitting his wife is wrong even if she starts something, he is still facing some major psychological issues. He will have to deal with getting beat up by a woman because he is unwilling to physically put a stop to it. He might be able to do more physical damage, but she will be able to do a lot more psychological damage.

This situation should scare you for the likelihood of escalation and for the damage that will be done physically and emotionally to the kids - if there are any. They certainly aren't learning the proper way to exist in an adult society.

[KWhit]

Pass,

Sorry about my earlier attempt at lame humor. Clearly in poor taste, and sorry for that.

It sounds like there is a situation that has been building for a while and could be starting to boil over. It's tough to tell from your post the intent and force of the actions on either side.

When she says she hits him, what does that really mean? Does she wail on him with all of her might in anger or is it a semi-playful a slap on the shoulder when he annoys her? It's surely somewhere in between so as you say the issue is grey.

And when he pushed her, was he pushing her away to get distance between them because she was in his face screaming at him or hitting him at the time? Sometimes a push can be a great defensive measure simply to put distance between two people in order to avoid something escalating even higher. And the statement that he placed her on the bed sounds like he was trying to diffuse a situation rather than being an aggressor. But that could be all wrong, too.

Based on the info given, the only thing that is clear is that this is a situation that could escalate fairly quickly. It sounds like they definitely need to talk to a counselor to work through some issues.

But simply based on the posts you've made, I think it would be inappropriate to assume abuse here - or if so, that he was the primary abuser.

[Noop]

Should it matter if she means it or not? Him being a man he is expected to accept this from his wife while if he gives back the same treatment his life is over, because of the stigma attached to being a wifebeater. I believe what Drake said is very true, "Equal rights come with equal responsibility." I wish the courts would catch up with this line of thinking personally.

[Karlifornia]

I don't know, but from his posts, I'm getting the feeling Honolulu_Blue was a spousal abuse victim.

[chesapeake]

Should it matter if she means it or not? Him being a man he is expected to accept this from his wife while if he gives back the same treatment his life is over, because of the stigma attached to being a wifebeater. I believe what Drake said is very true, "Equal rights come with equal responsibility." I wish the courts would catch up with this line of thinking personally.

Again, in the vast majority of cases, it gets back to the issue of powerlessness. In almost all cases, a man is physically able to defend himself against physical abuse and avoid any serious harm. The average man is substantially bigger, stronger and faster than the average woman.

In most cases, a woman is not physically able to prevent herself from being harmed. She simply isn't strong enough.

I do not dismiss the responsibility of women that act violently against their spouses; but the legal system rightfully differentiates between the two.

Think of your friends that are married or in serious relationships. How many of the women could you see being able to seriously hurt their spouse/bf with just their fists or by kicking? One, maybe two, and they'd pretty much have to get "lucky" to have that much of an effect. Conversely, how many of the men could kill their spouses with their hands or feet in a matter of a few moments? Deeply disturbing thoughts, but there is your difference.

[Marc Vaughan]

Again, in the vast majority of cases, it gets back to the issue of powerlessness. In almost all cases, a man is physically able to defend himself against physical abuse and avoid any serious harm. The average man is substantially bigger, stronger and faster than the average woman.
I have one word for you - testicles ... any woman can disable a man using a swift foot to the relevant area, the bigger they are the harder they fall and all that ;)

PS - One thing which hasn't been mentioned here is that women actually have a huge powerful hold over men generally if you have children together, its a known fact that the woman will get custody in most countries and as such you're on a hiding to nothing as a man if you leave a relationship .... something which various pressure groups in the UK have been trying to bring to light (v. badly on most occassions).

[Suburban Rhythm]

Again, in the vast majority of cases, it gets back to the issue of powerlessness. In almost all cases, a man is physically able to defend himself against physical abuse and avoid any serious harm. The average man is substantially bigger, stronger and faster than the average woman.

In most cases, a woman is not physically able to prevent herself from being harmed. She simply isn't strong enough.

I do not dismiss the responsibility of women that act violently against their spouses; but the legal system rightfully differentiates between the two.

Think of your friends that are married or in serious relationships. How many of the women could you see being able to seriously hurt their spouse/bf with just their fists or by kicking? One, maybe two, and they'd pretty much have to get "lucky" to have that much of an effect. Conversely, how many of the men could kill their spouses with their hands or feet in a matter of a few moments? Deeply disturbing thoughts, but there is your difference.

I don't know about "rightfully differentiates". That is punishing the result, rather than the intent.

[molson]

Should it matter if she means it or not? Him being a man he is expected to accept this from his wife while if he gives back the same treatment his life is over, because of the stigma attached to being a wifebeater. I believe what Drake said is very true, "Equal rights come with equal responsibility." I wish the courts would catch up with this line of thinking personally.

There's no question that courts are comparability VERY kind to women charged with domestic battery (at least at the misdemeanor level), but it's absolutely amazing how one-sided the serious violence in marriages is in this country. There's very few "true" female batterers, most have been battered themselves.

It's very difficult to prosecute a female dv defendant for hitting her husband, when the husband has an extensive history of violence (which is usually the case). The husband may have gotten out of many prior dv charges because of his wife's unwillingness/fear to testify, and the second she acts back, he's all ready to portray himself as the victim and seeks out punishment for her. It's all about power. This is a VERY common scenario.

I'm very suspcious of cases where the woman claims that she does most of the hitting. Women will defend their husbands and boyfriends.

[lurker]

Well, I'm closer to the person in question than Pass is, so I'll offer some more details. Having been on the receiving end of her temper many times, I'm sure she seriously hits her husband and it's not in any way playful. It probably doesn't hurt him since he's much larger than her, but she has a lot of anger when she loses her temper. She sounds a lot like Drake's wife -- I have to constantly walk on eggshells to make sure I don't say anything to make her temper flare. I can't imagine what it would be like to living with that.

The pushing incident happened when they were fighting and she yelled something really hurtful to him in the other room -- he then came into the room she was in, pushed her against the wall, picked her up and put her on the bed, then swore at her. Since I've had to hear about practically every fight they've had throughout their relationship, I'm sure this is the first time he's touched her in anger. That obviously doesn't make it right, but it just means I wouldn't characterize him as an abuser. I might characterize her as one, though. Either way, I don't think they should be in the relationship. I think at this point, it doesn't really matter who the bigger abuser is, they just need to know that they're bringing out the worst in each other.

Anyway, since this incident she's now convinced that all they need is marriage counseling (not independent therapy). At first he refused to see a counselor, but when she spent a couple nights away from him, he said he would and she went back. I really doubt they have yet and in the meantime I'm trying to figure out how to make them see someone or get them away from each other.

[Drake]

Does she own her behavior at all? Or is she using his recent action to manipulate him into getting more of what she wants?

Honestly, she's starting to sound more and more like a Borderline Personality to me. (And 'cuz I'm not EF27, I can toss around lay diagnostic hypotheses without breaking the law. :) )

I met lots and lots (and lots!) of BPD women when I worked in drug treatment. You know the best way to deal with a BPD chick? Run away as far as you can.

[Eaglesfan27]

Does she own her behavior at all? Or is she using his recent action to manipulate him into getting more of what she wants?

Honestly, she's starting to sound more and more like a Borderline Personality to me. (And 'cuz I'm not EF27, I can toss around lay diagnostic hypotheses without breaking the law. :) )

I met lots and lots (and lots!) of BPD women when I worked in drug treatment. You know the best way to deal with a BPD chick? Run away as far as you can.

I find this post very interesting.

[Drake]

Yes, yes, but how does it make you feel?

[Eaglesfan27]

I think the whole phenomenon of people with Borderline Personality Disorder being incorrectly called Bipolar Disorder is interesting.

[Drake]

I didn't say she was bipolar. I think she's borderline.

My wife is bipolar. She is not borderline.

I'm not as think as you confused I am. :)

ETA: I think BPD frequently gets lumped in and/or misdiagnosed as Bipolar (or the other way around) because the initial presentations, especially with Bipolar 2, can be strikingly similar, at least when looking through the lens of the increased agitation/aggressiveness of a hypomanic episode.

From my lay perspective, having dealt extensively with both, borderlines just "feel" different. I will reiterate that I am completely unqualified to differentiate between the two, unlike you. But the advantage of being unqualified is that I get to go with my gut feeling and react accordingly. I have no stake in diagnosing someone correctly.

ETA 2: What I'd like to see is a standard abbreviation that everyone agrees on to differentiate Bipolar from Borderline. I've seen "BPD" used for both (granted, on the interwebs), and it really frustrates my googlizing sometimes. On the other hand, mistakenly reading up on techniques for how to deal with a borderline spouse has given me good insights into dealing with some aspects of having a bipolar spouse. From a caregivers perspective, some of the techniques for dealing with conflict inside the relationship are useful regardless of the diagnosis.

[Eaglesfan27]

Yeah, I wasn't saying anything about your wife who I've never met.

My point was that even lay people with some knowledge can't diagnose someone either way over the internet as the two diagnoses are often confused even when one actually has the benefit of an interview in person. I think it's somewhat silly to try to do so.

[Drake]

Sure, it's silly. But lay folk have the benefit of a more limited knowledge set, which makes it more fun. We don't have to care about all the layers of the onion.

I'll also freely admit that that having a mentally ill spouse has made "mental illness" my hammer (i.e., every odd behavior set looks like a mental illness nail). When I worked in drug treatment, I spent the first few months freaking out every time one of my friends got drunk three weekends in a row.

She still sounds borderline to me, though. ;)

[Subby]

Hey look Drake is projecting his singular experience onto other people again!

[Drake]

Yeah, me and everyone else on the planet.

Interpreting the world through the lens of your own experience? Hmm. What a novel concept!