The OFFICIAL 2008-09 NHL Thread

[Suburban Rhythm]

I think you have to take the result of the play into consideration here. Bertuzzi is guilty of more than the other guys because of what happened to Steve Moore because of Bertuzzi's cheap shot.

Here's what I want the league to do. If you cheap shot a guy and injury him so that he has to leave the game, you are automatically suspended some number of games plus an option of being suspended indefinitely or as long as the injured player is sidelined as a result of your cheap shot. That's it. I'm not saying the NHL has to do it but I strongly believe that if they tie suspension length to injury length they would see a strong downturn in the number of cheap shots throughout the league.

Adam Graves would disagree with you.


YouTube - 1992 Patrick Division Final Game 2 Rangers VS Penguins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqvxQcnZy2Y)

[Ajaxab]

And this issue comes up again in light of last night's Kotsopolous cheap shot on Van Ryn. Kostitsyn could have been in a heap of trouble for that little nudge on Schenn if Schenn had been seriously injured as well.

[Maple Leafs]

And this issue comes up again in light of last night's Kotsopolous cheap shot on Van Ryn. Kostitsyn could have been in a heap of trouble for that little nudge on Schenn if Schenn had been seriously injured as well.
And that's exactly the point. The Van Ryn hit was bad and should be looked at by the league, but Kostitsyn could have broken Schenn's leg on that play. It was intentional, incredibly dirty, and didn't result in a serious injury only due to dumb luck. Plays like that are exhibit A against the whole "base the suspension on the injury" way of thinking.

[DeToxRox]

Saw this on RWCentral .. from Pierre LeBrun's blog

Latest on Zetterberg talks

Contract talks may be heating up between Henrik Zetterberg and the Red Wings. Both camps have made counteroffers and we're talking long-term deal, anywhere from seven to 10 years in length. Agent Marc Levine and GM Ken Holland met two weeks ago and then spoke again this past Wednesday. They plan to pick up the conversation again this week.

Zetterberg could easily get $9 million to $10 million a year on the open market after July 1, but he won't get that in Detroit. He's got to take less to stay in Detroit. The choice is, do you want win championships with the Wings or make lot of dough elsewhere?

I think the sweet spot is anywhere from $7 million to $8 million a season.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if Zetterberg takes much less than $8 million per year... with that said, how could Hossa possibly take less than that with the way he has been playing? I hate to say it, but there's no way Holland will be able to sign them both (i.e., Hossa's gone). It'll definitley be interesting, though, to see how this plays out...

[samifan24]

And that's exactly the point. The Van Ryn hit was bad and should be looked at by the league, but Kostitsyn could have broken Schenn's leg on that play. It was intentional, incredibly dirty, and didn't result in a serious injury only due to dumb luck. Plays like that are exhibit A against the whole "base the suspension on the injury" way of thinking.

Like I said before, I'm not saying that the only thing the league should do is suspend players that injure other players. I'm saying that should think about adding that in addition to the other suspensions they place on players were the player in question is not injured.

[Fidatelo]

Like I said before, I'm not saying that the only thing the league should do is suspend players that injure other players. I'm saying that should think about adding that in addition to the other suspensions they place on players were the player in question is not injured.

You know, I wouldn't be so against this line of thinking if people didn't take it too far (like you did originally) and say that the offender should be out for the same amount of time as the victim. I could definitely get behind a rule that went something like this:

suspension = (infraction factor + intent factor + severity of injury factor) x repeat offender factor

where

infraction factor is a table listing all possible infractions (obviously with some catch-alls for crazy stunts we can't imagine) and what the base fine should be.

intent factor is a table listing the assumed level of intent (obviously subjective but what can you do) and a value associated with it (so maybe accidental = 0, some intent = 3, malacious intent = 5... this would need to be thought through but you get my point).

severity of injury factor is again a table where the number of games estimated to be missed by the victim is linked to a value (so maybe 0 games = 1, 1-5 games = 2, 6-15 games = 3, 16-25 games = 5, 25-82 = 10, 83+ = 20).

repeat offender factor would just be the number of times the offender has been suspended in the past.

[Pyser]

the devils had 8 regulars out of the lineup on sunday with injuries. talk about ridiculous.

[samifan24]

You know, I wouldn't be so against this line of thinking if people didn't take it too far (like you did originally) and say that the offender should be out for the same amount of time as the victim.

And why do you get to decide what's "too far?" We agree that the league needs to make changes. We differ on how far the league should go in implementing those changes. It's not for you to decide what's "too far."

[Fidatelo]

And why do you get to decide what's "too far?" We agree that the league needs to make changes. We differ on how far the league should go in implementing those changes. It's not for you to decide what's "too far."

Really? I don't get to decide? Well fuck that, then! I quit!

[Suburban Rhythm]

Saw this on RWCentral .. from Pierre LeBrun's blog

Latest on Zetterberg talks

Contract talks may be heating up between Henrik Zetterberg and the Red Wings. Both camps have made counteroffers and we're talking long-term deal, anywhere from seven to 10 years in length. Agent Marc Levine and GM Ken Holland met two weeks ago and then spoke again this past Wednesday. They plan to pick up the conversation again this week.

Zetterberg could easily get $9 million to $10 million a year on the open market after July 1, but he won't get that in Detroit. He's got to take less to stay in Detroit. The choice is, do you want win championships with the Wings or make lot of dough elsewhere?

I think the sweet spot is anywhere from $7 million to $8 million a season.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if Zetterberg takes much less than $8 million per year... with that said, how could Hossa possibly take less than that with the way he has been playing? I hate to say it, but there's no way Holland will be able to sign them both (i.e., Hossa's gone). It'll definitley be interesting, though, to see how this plays out...

Lidstrom's deal is up in 2010, right?

It might be REALLY tight next year, especially if the cap doesn't rise like the past few seasons. And it would absolutely mean Franzen is gone. But, did anyone expect Detroit to end up with Hossa this season? If they both agreed to take about $7.5M, could they possibly pull it off? Essentially one of these deals would replace Lidstrom's (assuming Lidstrom then retires).

[DeToxRox]

Lidstrom's deal is up in 2010, right?

It might be REALLY tight next year, especially if the cap doesn't rise like the past few seasons. And it would absolutely mean Franzen is gone. But, did anyone expect Detroit to end up with Hossa this season? If they both agreed to take about $7.5M, could they possibly pull it off? Essentially one of these deals would replace Lidstrom's (assuming Lidstrom then retires).

Yep. Truthfully I expect Franzen gone. Some team somewhere will overpay the hell out of him. I think what they could do is sign Hossa and Z to cheaper deals next season (6.5 - 7.5) and backend it (9 per) or whatever. It isn't ideal but if you keep those two, with Dats, you have a huge window still to compete at a high level.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Yep. Truthfully I expect Franzen gone. Some team somewhere will overpay the hell out of him. I think what they could do is sign Hossa and Z to cheaper deals next season (6.5 - 7.5) and backend it (9 per) or whatever. It isn't ideal but if you keep those two, with Dats, you have a huge window still to compete at a high level.

Except the cap hit is the average, so without the cap going up, they might get screwed for 09-10. But if they have enough guys who they feel are ready (Helm, Erricsson) and guys also on expiring deals (Draper, Chelios come to mind) they can probably squeeze it for one year.

I guess it would all depend on the idea that Lidstrom definitely will not return in 10-11.

Just thinking in terms of Pittsburgh, they've got 2 guys on big contracts (Sid and Geno both at $8.7M starting next year) and a handful on mid-to-high deals (Fleury at $5M, Gonch at $5M, Whitney at $4M). But after that, next year they'll need a ton of guys at or below $1M. They've got some - Kennedy, Talbot, Letang, Goligoski, Scuderi - and will need a rookie or 2 to step in. Staal is our wild card. They can afford him at $3M, but not at $5M.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Except the cap hit is the average, so without the cap going up, they might get screwed for 09-10. But if they have enough guys who they feel are ready (Helm, Erricsson) and guys also on expiring deals (Draper, Chelios come to mind) they can probably squeeze it for one year.

I guess it would all depend on the idea that Lidstrom definitely will not return in 10-11.

Just thinking in terms of Pittsburgh, they've got 2 guys on big contracts (Sid and Geno both at $8.7M starting next year) and a handful on mid-to-high deals (Fleury at $5M, Gonch at $5M, Whitney at $4M). But after that, next year they'll need a ton of guys at or below $1M. They've got some - Kennedy, Talbot, Letang, Goligoski, Scuderi - and will need a rookie or 2 to step in. Staal is our wild card. They can afford him at $3M, but not at $5M.

Even if Lidstrom does retire after the 09-10 season, the Wings will still be in a jam next season.

According the NHLnumbers.com, for 09-10 the Wings already have 14 players under contract and are at $41.2 million. Even if you get Hossa and Zetterberg to take a "home town discont" and sign at $7.5 million per season each, that brings the Wings to $56 million with only 16 players under contract. Even in the unlikely even the cap goes up by $5 million next year, I can't see how the Wings keep Franzen. Even keeping two of the three could make things tight.

There aren't too many places where the Wings can save money. They could try to move Lilja ($1.2M) and replace him with someone who makes a little less. They could do the same with Draper ($1.5M). Other than that you have Maltby making $800K and then younger guys making less than that. The only other options would be moving Cleary ($2.8M) or Fillpula ($3M), but I don't see that happening.

If Lidstrom retires, which I think he will, the Wings will need to look for another defensemen to do their best to take over for him. Those are incredibly big skates to fill. We had a glimpse of the Lidstromless Wings last year when he was out with the knee injury for a few weeks. It wasn't pretty. At all. The Wings looked completely out of sync and were a mess in their own end. I fear the post-Lidstrom era.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Even if Lidstrom does retire after the 09-10 season, the Wings will still be in a jam next season.

According the NHLnumbers.com, for 09-10 the Wings already have 14 players under contract and are at $41.2 million. Even if you get Hossa and Zetterberg to take a "home town discont" and sign at $7.5 million per season each, that brings the Wings to $56 million with only 16 players under contract. Even in the unlikely even the cap goes up by $5 million next year, I can't see how the Wings keep Franzen. Even keeping two of the three could make things tight.

There aren't too many places where the Wings can save money. They could try to move Lilja ($1.2M) and replace him with someone who makes a little less. They could do the same with Draper ($1.5M). Other than that you have Maltby making $800K and then younger guys making less than that. The only other options would be moving Cleary ($2.8M) or Fillpula ($3M), but I don't see that happening.

If Lidstrom retires, which I think he will, the Wings will need to look for another defensemen to do their best to take over for him. Those are incredibly big skates to fill. We had a glimpse of the Lidstromless Wings last year when he was out with the knee injury for a few weeks. It wasn't pretty. At all. The Wings looked completely out of sync and were a mess in their own end. I fear the post-Lidstrom era.

Not knowing who is a FA in 2010, I don't think they are getting anyone to replace Lidstrom. He's irreplaceable. The best they can hope for is Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart all step up, as well as one ofMeech and Erricsson being able to fill a 2nd pairing role.

I didn't realize Draper was making that little (comparatively to other players), but I guess he's also been taking a discount to stick around. Other 3rd line centers, the Matt Cullens of the world, are getting $3M.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Not knowing who is a FA in 2010, I don't think they are getting anyone to replace Lidstrom. He's irreplaceable. The best they can hope for is Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart all step up, as well as one ofMeech and Erricsson being able to fill a 2nd pairing role.

I didn't realize Draper was making that little (comparatively to other players), but I guess he's also been taking a discount to stick around. Other 3rd line centers, the Matt Cullens of the world, are getting $3M.

Yeah, there is no replacing Lidstrom. It's not going to happen. I have no idea what potential "big name" defensemen will be FAs either.

It will be interesting to see what they do with that money. They may need to finally invest in some goaltending. They really have been doing this on the cheap ever since the cap was put in place. Right now, they are spending only $2.1M on Osgood/Conklin. So, maybe the split it between defense and goaltending or divy it up among all positions. It will be interesting.

The Wings' mid-ranged guys are Cleary, Filpulla, and Holmstrom, who is quite the bargain at $2.5M.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Yeah, there is no replacing Lidstrom. It's not going to happen. I have no idea what potential "big name" defensemen will be FAs either.

It will be interesting to see what they do with that money. They may need to finally invest in some goaltending. They really have been doing this on the cheap ever since the cap was put in place. Right now, they are spending only $2.1M on Osgood/Conklin. So, maybe the split it between defense and goaltending or divy it up among all positions. It will be interesting.

The Wings' mid-ranged guys are Cleary, Filpulla, and Holmstrom, who is quite the bargain at $2.5M.

Actually thinking it through, Gonchar's deal expires the same year. And he'll only be like 36...he'd be good for another 4 years in Detroit! Plus it will give Chelios someone to hit the early bird dinners with.

[johnnyshaka]

And why do you get to decide what's "too far?" We agree that the league needs to make changes. We differ on how far the league should go in implementing those changes. It's not for you to decide what's "too far."

It should be the players union deciding this crap...afterall, they are the ones involved here.

It comes down to how much players value their health and ultimately, their potential earning power. So, if players feel that their potential earning power is severely at risk by "cheap shots" then they should play accordingly. Until players take responsibility for their own actions nothing the league can do will really have an effect nor will there be any buy-in from the players.

Seriously, you would think some of the crap happening on the ice would taken care of in their own dressing rooms. I know I used to be really pissed off a guys on my team for doing stupid shit that resulted in me having to watch my back...but, I guess those were different times.

[Dr. Sak]

Let's Go WINGS!!! ;)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Let's Go WINGS!!! ;)

Welcome back, Dr. Sak.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Let's Go WINGS!!! ;)

Damn you!

[Dr. Sak]

Welcome back, Dr. Sak.

I expect a return Cheer on Thursday...

[Honolulu_Blue]

I expect a return Cheer on Thursday...

You got it.

[Dr. Sak]

This is a fun game to watch

[Dr. Sak]

WOW! Let this one play out...no shootout please!

[DeToxRox]

This has been the best regular season game I've seen in a long, long time.

[Dr. Sak]

What a game.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow. I sure am glad Jordan Staal decided he didn't want to show up during the playoffs. He can be scary good when he's on his game.

[Suburban Rhythm]

If I have one bad thing to say about this game...

My two goalies in my fantasy league...yeah, Fleury and Osgood. I'll punt on the goalie categories this week!

[Hurst2112]

Burke out as Ducks GM? That should make for a couple more pages of good posts. :lol:

[Dr. Sak]

Next stop Toronto?

[Hurst2112]

Under league rules, Burke cannot take a job with another club while still under contract, even if he resigns. That can happen only with the team's blessing, something the Ducks have been reluctant to do. Burke has not been allowed to discuss the Leafs' opening with Toronto officials.

We'll see if the Ducks are generous with their 'blessing'.

[Hurst2112]

Saw this on RWCentral .. from Pierre LeBrun's blog

Latest on Zetterberg talks

Contract talks may be heating up between Henrik Zetterberg and the Red Wings. Both camps have made counteroffers and we're talking long-term deal, anywhere from seven to 10 years in length. Agent Marc Levine and GM Ken Holland met two weeks ago and then spoke again this past Wednesday. They plan to pick up the conversation again this week.

Zetterberg could easily get $9 million to $10 million a year on the open market after July 1, but he won't get that in Detroit. He's got to take less to stay in Detroit. The choice is, do you want win championships with the Wings or make lot of dough elsewhere?

I think the sweet spot is anywhere from $7 million to $8 million a season.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if Zetterberg takes much less than $8 million per year... with that said, how could Hossa possibly take less than that with the way he has been playing? I hate to say it, but there's no way Holland will be able to sign them both (i.e., Hossa's gone). It'll definitley be interesting, though, to see how this plays out...

I can almost guarantee that Gaborik and his crazy agent are sweating this out.

Not taking their delusions of how much Gabby is worth; they may have to go into free agency next year with several teams telling them 'well, Zetterberg signed an extension with the Wings for X amount p/y. You are asking for X+3mil p/y. What has your client brought to the Wild since he was drafted? What can your client give us in terms of leadership and overall talent.

I think Marion missed his boat last year and this off season. His trade value is slowly going down (has only played 2 games this year). His attitude shows that he isn't a leader. Yeah, Jaque's style might not fit his talents but Gabby isn't doing a whole lot to defend his request of a boatload of cash next year. He can go up to western Canada and play with his boyfriend. They can wallow in mediocrity, again, together.

[johnnyshaka]

I'll be amazed when the day comes that a "high profile" free agent doesn't get crazy money...worth it or not.

Bottom line is that there is always somebody willing to pay the price for guys like Gabby and Hossa so I doubt those two have anything to worry about with regards to what Z signs for.

[Hurst2112]

I'll be amazed when the day comes that a "high profile" free agent doesn't get crazy money...worth it or not.

Bottom line is that there is always somebody willing to pay the price for guys like Gabby and Hossa so I doubt those two have anything to worry about with regards to what Z signs for.

true, there are always idiots. But show me a team that has made a move like that and made it work.

can anybody justify 9-10 million per year for Gabby when somebody like zetterberg may sign for 7-9?

[johnnyshaka]

true, there are always idiots. But show me a team that has made a move like that and made it work.

can anybody justify 9-10 million per year for Gabby when somebody like zetterberg may sign for 7-9?

I'm not saying it ever works...but that doesn't stop teams from doing it.

Why does it have to be justified?? Teams overpay for players all the time...that will never stop. If they want somebody bad enough, they'll overpay. And vice versa, if they aren't willing to overpay for players, then you'll be stuck with what's left after everybody's emptied their wallet.

[Hurst2112]

I'm not saying it ever works...but that doesn't stop teams from doing it.

Why does it have to be justified?? Teams overpay for players all the time...that will never stop. If they want somebody bad enough, they'll overpay. And vice versa, if they aren't willing to overpay for players, then you'll be stuck with what's left after everybody's emptied their wallet.

your disdain for contract sizes is waaaaaaaay more passionate than my discussing if Gabby will get his asking price. who burnt your toast? ;)

we are discussing player's contracts which are all over-inflated. doesn't mean we can't look past that and have a debate on whether or not Hank's re-signing will change what Gabby will ask for or be offered.

[Maple Leafs]

I for one welcome our new fat Irish overlord.

(No, seriously I do. I think Burke will be a good fit in Toronto.)

[johnnyshaka]

your disdain for contract sizes is waaaaaaaay more passionate than my discussing if Gabby will get his asking price. who burnt your toast? ;)

we are discussing player's contracts which are all over-inflated. doesn't mean we can't look past that and have a debate on whether or not Hank's re-signing will change what Gabby will ask for or be offered.

Oh, I have no problem with overpaying players...honestly, I'd rather have an owner pay too much and sign "better" players than have one who is unwilling to open the wallet and end up with the scraps.

My beef is when they, the owners, themselves complain about escalating salaries when they, themselves, are the ones at the root of the problem.

As for Z's potential "home town" discount affecting Gabby's earning potential...like I said before, it won't matter one bit because there will be more than one owner willing to pay whatever Gabby wants...that's just the way it is. The day that doesn't happen is the day I commend owners for being responsible...but I'm not sure that day will ever come...even in a salary cap world.

[Pyser]

it only took 16 games for the lightning to realize what everyone else knew: hiring melrose was an awful idea.

[Honolulu_Blue]

it only took 16 games for the lightning to realize what everyone else knew: hiring melrose was an awful idea.

Yeah. His firing is pretty much the Least. Surprising. News. Ever.

Those guys really have no clue how to build a hockey team. They've just made horrible decision after horrible decision. It's too bad to see a great player like LeCavalier wasting away down there.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I am still standing by my pick of Melrose in the FOFC Historical NHL Draft.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I am still standing by my pick of Melrose in the FOFC Historical NHL Draft.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/nm_titanic_smith_070628_ssv.jpg

[TazFTW]

Yay, now ESPN can bring back Melrose and get rid of Barnaby. :banana:

[Wolfpack]

Now let's see...where is that thing...ah, here it is!

*whacks Panic Button*

(What else can be done at this point as Carolina has dropped four of five including getting swept by the Thrashers in a home-and-home set surrounding getting pasted by the Caps--again. If this keeps up, Melrose may not be the only coach on the unemployment line given the somewhat touchy offseason between Rutherford and Laviolette.)

[samifan24]

Yeah. His firing is pretty much the Least. Surprising. News. Ever.

Those guys really have no clue how to build a hockey team. They've just made horrible decision after horrible decision. It's too bad to see a great player like LeCavalier wasting away down there.

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story. He had Tocchet run practice earlier this week after he (Melrose) held a team meeting. It sounds like a lot of people are saying Tampa made bad signings in the off-season. If so, how is that Melrose's fault? I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired but I don't understand why he was fired if some people are saying it was the team's fault for signing a lot of bad players in the name of "building a hockey team."

[Fidatelo]

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story.

I haven't read anything about it yet, but the guys in the locker room at hockey tonight were saying a part of it was because he wasn't playing Lecavalier or Stamkos enough.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story. He had Tocchet run practice earlier this week after he (Melrose) held a team meeting. It sounds like a lot of people are saying Tampa made bad signings in the off-season. If so, how is that Melrose's fault? I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired but I don't understand why he was fired if some people are saying it was the team's fault for signing a lot of bad players in the name of "building a hockey team."

I can't say why Melrose was fired. Given it happened so quickly it had to be some philosophical differences between Melrose and the ownership. While I don't know too much about the owners' philosophy on how to build/coach a team (given what they did during the off-season, it seems to be a pretty bad one), it's not surprising that Melrose would clash with anyone.

He seemed an odd fit from the start and hasn't been coaching in the league for 13 years. It seemed doomed to fail.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Why was Melrose fired? I don't follow the Lightning but it sounds like there's more to the story. He had Tocchet run practice earlier this week after he (Melrose) held a team meeting. It sounds like a lot of people are saying Tampa made bad signings in the off-season. If so, how is that Melrose's fault? I'm not saying he shouldn't have been fired but I don't understand why he was fired if some people are saying it was the team's fault for signing a lot of bad players in the name of "building a hockey team."

Because they can't fire the 12 new players they signed. Well, they can, they won't. So someone needed to go.

I wonder how far this set the team back. I know not all the deals were long term-- Roberts, Recchi, Kolzig etc only getting 1 year. But Vrbata got 3, and Malone got 7 years. Adam Hall got 3 years (though low price).

And they still have no D.

[Hurst2112]

Barry's last coaching game was a loss to the Wings. That's funny.

Now, he'll hate them even more if he goes back to ESPN! hah

[Suburban Rhythm]

Really odd trade that went down early this morning.

Pens get Phillipe Boucher
Stars get Darryl Sydor

On the surface, Pittsburgh gets an older D whose best years happened years ago in Dallas and LA for...an older D whose best years happened years ago in Dallas and LA :confused:

Both are in the last year of their deals. Both making $2.5M.

Sydor had actually played decently the past few games he dressed. But he had also expressed that he wanted traded. He was #7 on the depth chart now, and that's before Whitney (December) and Gonchar (March) return.

Boucher is a RH shot, which the Pens only have one (Letang).

But the deal still makes NO sense.

[DeToxRox]

Wow. Stumbled upon this ... Oiler fans .. wtf is going on? I remember Detroit had interest in Penner. I was never sold, and thankfully we didn't pull the trigger. Is it really that bad?


Dustin Penner will be a healthy scratch for the second consecutive game tonight.

"When we signed Dustin we thought he'd be a top two-line player,'' MacTavish told Edmonton reporters. "We thought the contract was a starting point for him, but he views it as a finish line. I can't watch it for another 2 1/2 years.''

"He's not competitive or fit enough to help us, so why put him back in?'' MacTavish said.

[Travis]

Wow. Stumbled upon this ... Oiler fans .. wtf is going on? I remember Detroit had interest in Penner. I was never sold, and thankfully we didn't pull the trigger. Is it really that bad?

Dustin Penner will be a healthy scratch for the second consecutive game tonight.

"When we signed Dustin we thought he'd be a top two-line player,'' MacTavish told Edmonton reporters. "We thought the contract was a starting point for him, but he views it as a finish line. I can't watch it for another 2 1/2 years.''

"He's not competitive or fit enough to help us, so why put him back in?'' MacTavish said.

Guy has size (maybe too much at times based on the club's comments) and skill, but the biggest question mark is intensity. When he really gets going he can control a game, we just haven't seen it very often since he got here. He's gotten the chances Lupul didn't and hasn't really run with it for a prolonged period at any point and with the young talent on the club now MacT is starting to punish guys with ice time (a tactic he only used to use on guys in his dog house and not for the guys, yes Horcoff I'm looking at you, he likes).

It's going to be a switch Penner has to flip himself and really lay it on the line on the ice once he's back in the lineup. Still has the potential to be an absolutely scary power forward type but is quickly going the way or Torres with inconsistent effort (or consistently poor if you prefer I suppose).

Too bad really as I thought he'd fit in nicely as a finisher on a line with Hemsky, but just another case of the team not being able to find guys who will step it up. Really is too bad Lowe wasn't able to get Vanek.

[johnnyshaka]

Travis, you are alive!! ;)

Penner has been MIA for most of the year...but that was the case for most of the first half of last year, too. Wonder if he just needs a month or two to get it going?

As for Horcoff, at least he's been dropped a line or two. Glad to see Gagne with Hemsky but I'd also like to see Cogs up there, too. Those three could be dazzling with all that speed to burn.

[DeToxRox]

This Wings/Oilers game is a mockery. Put the fucking whistles away.

[Draft Dodger]

Stastny reportedly has agreed to a 5 year 33 million extension

[Draft Dodger]

(that's Paul, not Yan)

[Suburban Rhythm]

Didn't see this added. I guess Frankie Beauchemin tore his ACL, done for the year. So that leaves Neidermeyer, and Pronger and...uh...hmmm...Kent Huskins?

[Travis]

Fernando Pisani likely done for a while. Based on the replays I'd be amazed if he's not gone for a while with some serious damage to his ankle.

And in team related news, can we bench MacTavish for a while? I'm not sure I've ever seen a coach consistently drain the offensive ability out of a team the way he does. There's a lot of skill on this team both up front (albeit young) and on the blue line but they're not even looking close to anything resembling a cohesive unit. Seems like any goals they get are either PP, garbage or amazing (re: Hemsky) individual efforts. There's sure not many good flow sequences or much in the way of give and go's, crisp passing setups/plays, etc. And the PP, well, time to take it off of the slo-mo setting, pretty easy for penalty killers to block shots when there's an 8 second pause between passes and shots.

[DeToxRox]

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/122/pisanibj7.png

Didn't look good.

[Maple Leafs]

Wendel Clark is having his number honored on Saturday night. Should be a great night at the ACC.

If any Leaf fans are interested, we've been counting down the top Wendel moments over at DBG this month: Down Goes Brown: Top 17 Wendel Clark Moments. (http://downgoesbrown.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%2017%20Wendel%20Clark%20Moments)

[Dr. Sak]

Wendel Clark is having his number honored on Saturday night. Should be a great night at the ACC.

If any Leaf fans are interested, we've been counting down the top Wendel moments over at DBG this month: Down Goes Brown: Top 17 Wendel Clark Moments. (http://downgoesbrown.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%2017%20Wendel%20Clark%20Moments)

It's Leaf Fan...by the way...who is this Wydell Clarke you speak of?

[DeToxRox]

It's Leaf Fan...by the way...who is this Wydell Clarke you speak of?

Wydell I believe is a cousin of Red Wing great Wendell Clarke.

[RomaGoth]

He seemed an odd fit from the start and hasn't been coaching in the league for 13 years. It seemed doomed to fail.

Well said, sir.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wydell I believe is a cousin of Red Wing great Wendell Clarke.

Good ole #71.

What a legend...

[Maple Leafs]

You guys are getting his name wrong!

It is making me so angry!

[MikeVic]

But they didn't get the "Red Wing great" part wrong.

[RomaGoth]

You guys are getting his name wrong!

It is making me so angry!

I thought his name was Wendy, now I am being told it is Wydell....:confused:

[DeToxRox]

I'm reading the countdown and I have to assume his trade to a real team is #1.

[Chief Rum]

Wow. Stumbled upon this ... Oiler fans .. wtf is going on? I remember Detroit had interest in Penner. I was never sold, and thankfully we didn't pull the trigger. Is it really that bad?


Dustin Penner will be a healthy scratch for the second consecutive game tonight.

"When we signed Dustin we thought he'd be a top two-line player,'' MacTavish told Edmonton reporters. "We thought the contract was a starting point for him, but he views it as a finish line. I can't watch it for another 2 1/2 years.''

"He's not competitive or fit enough to help us, so why put him back in?'' MacTavish said.

My apologies in advance to Oilers fans, but...


L...M...A...O...!!!

[Chief Rum]

Didn't see this added. I guess Frankie Beauchemin tore his ACL, done for the year. So that leaves Neidermeyer, and Pronger and...uh...hmmm...Kent Huskins?

Huskins is actually pretty good. This will be his chance to step it up and become a major contributor.

The Ducks also have Montador and Hedican, who are solid (and McIver, who is not).

Obviously, losing a solid two way player and terrific hitter in Beauch does us no favors, but this is an area I think we can take a hit on and be fine. We have three basically NHL-ready D-man waiting at Iowa for a chance, and Brett Festerling (who was called up to replace Beauchemin) was insanely good in training camp. I am excited to see him get a chance.

Also, the loss of Beauchemin to injury means a percentage of his salary is now off the cap, which means we got to bring up Bobby Ryan, who should have been on our second line anyway.

It's even possible this awful situation will make the Ducks a better overall team. Go figure.

[Travis]

My apologies in advance to Oilers fans, but...


L...M...A...O...!!!

Take it with a grain of salt, this is coming from Craig MacTavish who regularly benched Hemsky early in his career because his defensive play wasn't as good as MacT figured it should be.

The same coach who refused to play Lupul with Hemsky then watched Lupul put up 20 goals in 56 games for the Flyers last year (after 16 in 82 with Edmonton the season prior). Penner potted 23 last year and I'd be amazed if he's not around 25-30 by the end of this season too.

[Chief Rum]

Take it with a grain of salt, this is coming from Craig MacTavish who regularly benched Hemsky early in his career because his defensive play wasn't as good as MacT figured it should be.

The same coach who refused to play Lupul with Hemsky then watched Lupul put up 20 goals in 56 games for the Flyers last year (after 16 in 82 with Edmonton the season prior). Penner potted 23 last year and I'd be amazed if he's not around 25-30 by the end of this season too.

I actually hope he gets there. I liked Penner when he was here. I think he was a dummy for signing that deal from a career perspective (if not a financial one), but that's just me.

That said, it seems a fitting result given how he ended up there, and all the crap that went on because of it. MacT really does not seem to be all that good of a coach, IMO.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Take it with a grain of salt, this is coming from Craig MacTavish who regularly benched Hemsky early in his career because his defensive play wasn't as good as MacT figured it should be.

The same coach who refused to play Lupul with Hemsky then watched Lupul put up 20 goals in 56 games for the Flyers last year (after 16 in 82 with Edmonton the season prior). Penner potted 23 last year and I'd be amazed if he's not around 25-30 by the end of this season too.

Penner had a strong game tonight. He scored just one goal (of the Oilers' 7), but was driving to the net all night and his presence in front of the net led to two more goals.

[Travis]

I actually hope he gets there. I liked Penner when he was here. I think he was a dummy for signing that deal from a career perspective (if not a financial one), but that's just me.

That said, it seems a fitting result given how he ended up there, and all the crap that went on because of it. MacT really does not seem to be all that good of a coach, IMO.

I can see your point, but counter point could be that he had a chance to jump start his "stardom" by moving to a team where he'd be an immediate top two line (and more than likely top line LW) player, which, for anybody would be awfully tempting, especially when the money was as nice as it was. Not saying it was the right choice in the end, but awfully tempting obviously.

If/when a player or two can step up to match Hemsky's level of play this is going to be a very dangerous team. Unfortunately that's been a search going on for a quite a while and at times MacT seems much more intent on using playing on a line with Hemsky as a reward for one of his guys (re: Horcoff, Moreau, Pisani) rather than finding players that would help elevate Hemsky's play.

Fortunately it appears that there are enough elite type offensive players on the team right now that one or two can't help but develop into those types of players. The potential of what a Penner/Gagner/Hemsky line may look like in a season or two will hopefully make the pain of watching MacT muddle his way through the last few seasons worth it.

[Galaxy]

4-3 Sabres over Bruins after just one period. Vanek retakes the lead in goals with two so far tonight.

[NoSkillz]

4-3 Sabres over Bruins after just one period. Vanek retakes the lead in goals with two so far tonight.

My gosh. What an AWFUL performance tonight defensively.

It's just so tough being a Buffalo sports fan.

[RendeR]

4-3 Sabres over Bruins after just one period. Vanek retakes the lead in goals with two so far tonight.



Woulda been great if the defense flew in with the rest of the team tonight. Seriously, where the fuck did the real defensive players go? This team defense has gone from stout to stupid in about 3 weeks time.

[samifan24]

It looks like Roberto Luongo will be out for a while...

[Maple Leafs]

Leafs deal Carlo Colaiacovo and Alex Steen to the Blues for Lee Stempniak.

[Draft Dodger]

Leafs deal Carlo Colaiacovo and Alex Steen to the Blues for Lee Stempniak.

Don Cherry must be pleased...

[Suburban Rhythm]

So I guess this clears some cap space for Sundin now?

[samifan24]

So I guess this clears some cap space for Sundin now?

I was wondering earlier today if Sundin would return to Toronto if the Leafs hired Brian Burke.

[Johnny93g]

So I guess this clears some cap space for Sundin now?

Definatly not a cap move. The Leafs had about 7.5 mil in cap space, and that goes upto around 8 now

[Maple Leafs]

Man, those Habs have some snipers:
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[Dr. Sak]

Claude Lemieux has signed a tryout contract with the San Jose Sharks in hopes of returning to the NHL after a five-year absence.

The 43-year-old Lemieux is expected to report to the Sharks' AHL affiliate in Worcester this week, San Jose spokesman Scott Emmert said Monday.

[samifan24]

Man, those Habs have some snipers:
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The purse stealer decides to give back this time-- to the Islanders!

[samifan24]

Claude Lemieux has signed a tryout contract with the San Jose Sharks in hopes of returning to the NHL after a five-year absence.

The 43-year-old Lemieux is expected to report to the Sharks' AHL affiliate in Worcester this week, San Jose spokesman Scott Emmert said Monday.

I just saw Worcester play a few weeks ago. Kyle McLaren was there. Now I could see Kyle McLaren and Claude Lemieux in an AHL game? Untold levels of awesomeness.

[yacovfb]

Claude Lemieux has signed a tryout contract with the San Jose Sharks in hopes of returning to the NHL after a five-year absence.

The 43-year-old Lemieux is expected to report to the Sharks' AHL affiliate in Worcester this week, San Jose spokesman Scott Emmert said Monday.

If he returns to the NHL, I doubt it will be with the Sharks. The team's beat writer wrote this on his blog: "Sharks GM Doug Wilson has been traveling the past two days, so I haven’t been able to talk with him. But a team rep said today this is strictly about Worcester, and not San Jose."

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know back-to-back games can be tough but damn.

HTF do the Thrashers shred Toronto last night & then look like an SPHL team tonight against a Washington club missing 8 regulars from the lineup?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Ryan O'byrne having a bad week...

YouTube - Johan Franzen's AMAZING Goal Against The Habs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfAvvq53ls)

Franzen just made him look silly.

Also, for as much as Therrien gets bashed for his mixing of lines, so far this season, it's worked.

Pens down 3-0, beat the Isles 5-3. Malkin with the natural HT and assist.

[Maple Leafs]

HTF do the Thrashers shred Toronto last night & then look like an SPHL team tonight against a Washington club missing 8 regulars from the lineup?
Toronto = bad.

[Suburban Rhythm]

It's unofficially official...or something like that-

The Toronto Maple Leafs and Brian Burke have agreed to terms on a six-year deal to become the team’s next president and general manager, Sportsnet has learned.

The deal is worth about $18 million - the rest of this season and the next five. Also, Burke will report only to the CEO of Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment, which is currently held by Richard Peddie.

An official announcement is expected Saturday.


Burke agrees to six-year Leafs deal - Sportsnet.ca (http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2008/11/27/leafs_burke/)

[Suburban Rhythm]

DOLA

Oh yeah, Wade Belak to Nashville / Nick Tarnasky to Florida

[Buccaneer]

I just saw SI's 2008 Sports Turkeys and it listed Melrose. It said that he had an antiquated system that the co-owner had to diagram plays for the team during games. What's that about?

[samifan24]

I just saw SI's 2008 Sports Turkeys and it listed Melrose. It said that he had an antiquated system that the co-owner had to diagram plays for the team during games. What's that about?

I just read the same thing after you posted it here. The co-owner is Len Barrie, who played in the NHL for a few years. I'm sure there's more to the story but I don't understand why Melrose wouldn't diagram plays for his team.

[bbor]

Calling Len Barrie an nhl'er is a bit of a stretch :D

[Honolulu_Blue]

I just saw SI's 2008 Sports Turkeys and it listed Melrose. It said that he had an antiquated system that the co-owner had to diagram plays for the team during games. What's that about?

I just read the same thing after you posted it here. The co-owner is Len Barrie, who played in the NHL for a few years. I'm sure there's more to the story but I don't understand why Melrose wouldn't diagram plays for his team.

This was first reported about a month or so on Hockey Night in Canada. Apparently some player told Al Strachan about the incident.

Apparently Melrose was never much of an X's and O's coach even back in his LA days. He had an assistant coach who handled that. By all accounts Melrose was always more of a motivator as a head coach. Over the last 10-15 years the game has really progressed in terms of strategies, positioning, etc. You have the dreaded trap, the left wing lock, and a host of other tactics. It's one of the big reasons goals have dropped. As the tactical/strategic aspect of the game became more important Melorse became less effective.

I also really think that the players had a hard time taking him seriously. Over the last 13 years while on ESPN Barry became sort of a cariciature of himself. I'm sure all the players had seen him on TV on many occassions. Between the mullet and all the "old time" hockey talk I think he became pretty easy to dismiss in the locker room.

[bhlloy]

Lucky win for the Ducks this afternoon that easily could have been 4-1 Chicago but Hiller got lucky and got the shutout win. Nice to see us play with some discipline (2 minors) for once.

I don't see any way they can send Bobby Ryan back down with the way he's playing. He's really buying into the system and had 2 or 3 crushing hits, and a nice forechecking play that led to the only goal. In fact, he looked like the best player out there today. Good stuff for a kid who has all the tools to be one of the top 10 forwards in the game. Getzlaf-Perry-Ryan is a line with ridiculous upside.

[Galaxy]

Have you guys notice the officiating is just horrible this year?

[NoSkillz]

Have you guys notice the officiating is just horrible this year?

Heh. I was at the game tonight...just brutal officiating.

Sabres had to beat two opponents tonight ;)

[Galaxy]

Heh. I was at the game tonight...just brutal officiating.

Sabres had to beat two opponents tonight ;)

It was just downright ugly. However, it's been pretty bad for most of the season. I really haven't seen the other teams play, so I haven't seen how poorly those games are officiated.

[DeToxRox]

It was just downright ugly. However, it's been pretty bad for most of the season. I really haven't seen the other teams play, so I haven't seen how poorly those games are officiated.

Mike Babcock has said all year that when a team goes up two goals they miraculously start commiting a lot of penalties.

[bhlloy]

It's ok, the Ducks miraculously commit a lot of penalties whatever the score is :)

(that's mostly tongue in cheek - Ducks are undoubtedly a very undisciplined team, but there are also a lot of reputation only calls I've seen so far this year, and some horrendous no calls as well)

[Suburban Rhythm]

It was just downright ugly. However, it's been pretty bad for most of the season. I really haven't seen the other teams play, so I haven't seen how poorly those games are officiated.

Have you seen the Pens powerplay? I think the officials were actually helping you.

[samifan24]

How 'bout those Bruins!!! What a run!!!

[Suburban Rhythm]

Malkin and Crosby now 1-2 in the scoring race. I know it's early, but I can't see either falling off much.

Last time teammates finished 1-2 for the Hart...96-97, Pittsburgh again.

I get we still aren't a 1/3 of the way through the season, but any worries of a Finals hangover are gone. And they are doing this without 2 of their top 4 D, and Fleury missing 2 weeks.

[Sublime 2]

How 'bout those Bruins!!! What a run!!!

Agreed! What a month for the B's!

[yacovfb]

Agreed! What a month for the B's!

They've got nothin' on the Sharks:)

[Chief Rum]

Lucky win for the Ducks this afternoon that easily could have been 4-1 Chicago but Hiller got lucky and got the shutout win. Nice to see us play with some discipline (2 minors) for once.

I don't see any way they can send Bobby Ryan back down with the way he's playing. He's really buying into the system and had 2 or 3 crushing hits, and a nice forechecking play that led to the only goal. In fact, he looked like the best player out there today. Good stuff for a kid who has all the tools to be one of the top 10 forwards in the game. Getzlaf-Perry-Ryan is a line with ridiculous upside.

They won't send Ryan down again, unless he goes on some Gawd-awful pointless streak. They don't have to send him down for cap reasons anymore (or at least not much) because Beauchemin's injury gives them some sal cap relief. Although they did send down both Ryan and Festerling for a few days this past week in between games to save salary hits against the cap (just to Bakersfield, so they were on quick recall--in fact, I'll bet they didn't even leave Anaheim).

Good win for the Ducks today in Carolina. Now a franchise record eight straight point road game point streak. Wish we were more consistent at home.

BTW, bhlloy, you hear anything more on this weird Jiggy situation? I see he's back now. I have been out of town for the holiday, so I didn't hear a thing about it until I got back in today (or not much, at least).

[bhlloy]

Haven't heard a thing. The way Hiller has been playing certainly helps... I think he's going to be a really good goalie for a long time.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I love HNiC's Satellite Hot Stove. I pretty much record both HNiC games every Saturday night. I watch the games on Sunday morning. I typically just fast-forward through the games, watch the highlights, and then watch all the between period stuff because I enjoy Coach's Corner, the Hot Stove, and Kelly Hrudey (who is probably the best analyst on the show) talk about minor details of seemingly random, totally inconsequential break out plays.

As for the Hot Stove, I really hate Al Strachan and Mike Milbury. Milbury sits there like the smuggest SOB in the room and can't help thinking: "You're Mike Milbury! You were one of the worst GMs ever. Everything you're saying has to be wrong!

As for the Wings, there are a couple of slightly irritating trends.

First, their defensive play and goaltending still haven't been that sound. I can't recall the last time Osgood let in fewer than 3 goals and he was beaten by a shot from the red line in Columbus on Friday. While the Wings won that game, that's the kind of nonsense that happened with Osgood 1.0. Osgood 2.0 - the goalie we've seen since his return to the Wings - really didn't let that kind of stuff in. He really isn't making timely saves at all.

This has led to problem number two. The Wings have been having a very difficult time maintaining leads. They have given up a number of 2 or 3 goal leads in games. The worse was against Pittsburgh a few weeks ago.

Speaking of Pittsburgh, this is problem number 3. The latest troubling trend has been the Wings' play against the other "top" teams in the league. Over the last 2 years, despite the common misconception, the Wings had always faired very well against the better teams in the league. Their record was much better outside of the Central Division than within, despite the fact that the Central was full of bottom feeders like St. Louis, Columbus, and Chicago (until this year). The Wings lost to the other top teams in the West - Anaheim, San Jose - and all the top teams in the East - Pittsburgh, Montreal, and Boston. They lost in overtime against Anaheim and Pittsburgh (but that Pitt game was awful, they were out shot 16-8 in the third period). San Jose pretty much blew them out and Montreal and Boston each won by a few goals.

The Wings have had a tough schedule and it's certainly not panic time, but I would really like to see them compete better against the top teams in the league. They have an opportunity to start tonight with the Ducks in town. They also need to stop relying so heavily on their offense and power play.

[Ajaxab]

I love HNiC's Satellite Hot Stove. I pretty much record both HNiC games every Saturday night. I watch the games on Sunday morning. I typically just fast-forward through the games, watch the highlights, and then watch all the between period stuff because I enjoy Coach's Corner, the Hot Stove, and Kelly Hrudey (who is probably the best analyst on the show) talk about minor details of seemingly random, totally inconsequential break out plays.

As for the Hot Stove, I really hate Al Strachan and Mike Milbury. Milbury sits there like the smuggest SOB in the room and can't help thinking: "You're Mike Milbury! You were one of the worst GMs ever. Everything you're saying has to be wrong!

As for the Wings, there are a couple of slightly irritating trends.

First, their defensive play and goaltending still haven't been that sound. I can't recall the last time Osgood let in fewer than 3 goals and he was beaten by a shot from the red line in Columbus on Friday. While the Wings won that game, that's the kind of nonsense that happened with Osgood 1.0. Osgood 2.0 - the goalie we've seen since his return to the Wings - really didn't let that kind of stuff in. He really isn't making timely saves at all.

This has led to problem number two. The Wings have been having a very difficult time maintaining leads. They have given up a number of 2 or 3 goal leads in games. The worse was against Pittsburgh a few weeks ago.

Speaking of Pittsburgh, this is problem number 3. The latest troubling trend has been the Wings' play against the other "top" teams in the league. Over the last 2 years, despite the common misconception, the Wings had always faired very well against the better teams in the league. Their record was much better outside of the Central Division than within, despite the fact that the Central was full of bottom feeders like St. Louis, Columbus, and Chicago (until this year). The Wings lost to the other top teams in the West - Anaheim, San Jose - and all the top teams in the East - Pittsburgh, Montreal, and Boston. They lost in overtime against Anaheim and Pittsburgh (but that Pitt game was awful, they were out shot 16-8 in the third period). San Jose pretty much blew them out and Montreal and Boston each won by a few goals.

The Wings have had a tough schedule and it's certainly not panic time, but I would really like to see them compete better against the top teams in the league. They have an opportunity to start tonight with the Ducks in town. They also need to stop relying so heavily on their offense and power play.



I think you're in my head on both of your major points here. Milbury is a disaster. Why CBC thinks they need a guy like him to drag the level of their coverage down is beyond me. Milbury was bad on NBC and he's just as bad north of the border. I can't figure out how the guy has a job.

I haven't had a chance to see the Wings too much this year, but it seems Conklin has been getting a decent amount of playing time. Is this because Osgood has been struggling? Or is Babcock rotating goalies to save minutes for the playoffs? Like you say, it is still pretty early in the season, but Holland might have some thinking to do in the next few months. Would they dare put one of the potential FAs out there as trade bait to try get a top tier goalie? I don't know who, if anyone, would be available, but the Wings' existing situation could be better.

I'd love to see Versus swap Col/Min for Ana/Det tonight. Pretty much anything Jacques Lemaire touches turns to zzzzzzz.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Aren't the Wings still the consensus #2 in the West behind SJ?

They are having the season I expected out of the Pens-- good enough, just not great. Make the playoffs, have everyone healthy, when the games are important.

Have the Wings really been severely outplayed in many (any?) games so far?

I can see where Osgood might be a worry, but he's typically been efficient, if not great. He makes the key saves.

[Draft Dodger]

[SIZE=2]I love HNiC's Satellite Hot Stove. I pretty much record both HNiC games every Saturday night. I watch the games on Sunday morning. I typically just fast-forward through the games, watch the highlights, and then watch all the between period stuff because I enjoy Coach's Corner, the Hot Stove, and Kelly Hrudey (who is probably the best analyst on the show) talk about minor details of seemingly random, totally inconsequential break out plays.

As for the Hot Stove, I really hate Al Strachan and Mike Milbury. Milbury sits there like the smuggest SOB in the room and can't help thinking: "You're Mike Milbury! You were one of the worst GMs ever. Everything you're saying has to be wrong!


Yeah, I'm the same way with Milbury. I loved when TSN had him AND Bobby Clarke together - man, what a joke. Strachan is a grumpy old man who seems to hate everything about the NHL. His schtick is entertaining, though, and it's worth pointing out that he was dead right on Melrose. Still, I'd much prefer Morrison, Duhatschek and Lebrun - 3 guys who have a brain and don't feel a need to pimp themselves.

in the same vein, how on earth did PJ Stock get hired? and how does he keep his job?

[samifan24]

in the same vein, how on earth did PJ Stock get hired? and how does he keep his job?

I don't know about PJ Stock the broadcaster but he was a hell of a fighter.

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[Honolulu_Blue]

Aren't the Wings still the consensus #2 in the West behind SJ?

They are having the season I expected out of the Pens-- good enough, just not great. Make the playoffs, have everyone healthy, when the games are important.

I would say they are. I don't think anyone has quite taken over that spot. The playoffs are certainly the key, but some of these are trends I've seen during the regular season - that I didn't see too much of last year. His defense is a bit to blame. There have been a lot more turnovers and a lot more stretches of the Wings running around in their own end.


Have the Wings really been severely outplayed in many (any?) games so far?

Not really. They are still out shooting pretty much everyone, though the are allowing a lot more shots against then in the past. The third period against Pittsburgh really stands out as the one of the few times I've really seen the Wings' dominated. I think Pittsburgh out shot Detroit 16-8, or something, in that period. It's pretty rare the Wings get out shot and I cant' recall the last time they were out shot so badly.


I can see where Osgood might be a worry, but he's typically been efficient, if not great. He makes the key saves.

That sums up Osgood nicely, but he's really slipped in the "key save" department. He just hasn't been making the "key saves" during games this year. That where he was strongest throughout last year's playoffs, this year has been the opposite. He just hasn't been there when the Wings have really needed him.

I still have faith in Osgood. He won two Cups. It's hard to ask for more.

Conklin was getting more playing time becuase of Osgood's struggles. Conklin has looked great at times and not so great at others. He let in 3 goals on 9 shots against Boston.

It's not panic time at all and the "problems" the Wings have been having are nothing too serious at this point. Their record is still great and that's enough for now.

I don't think the Wings will try to make a move in net. I think they will be comfortable with Osgood/Conklin. Even if they were to try and move a forward, I don't think there are any goalies, who would fit within the Wings' salary structure, and are really that much better than Osgood, have more playoff experience, and a better playoff record.

The Wings made their move in July signing Hossa. I'd be really surprised if they made any kind of trade this year, outside of something on the very fringes of their roster.

[Honolulu_Blue]

in the same vein, how on earth did PJ Stock get hired? and how does he keep his job?

I have no idea. He's really not very good at doing highlights. That said, I like him. He seems personable enough locked away in his bubble.

[johnnyshaka]

I have no idea. He's really not very good at doing highlights. That said, I like him. He seems personable enough locked away in his bubble.

Exactly...he's personable and I could see myself sitting down and having a beer with the guy while most of the clowns in broadcasting are sellouts...stiff, boring, and dry guys who read the teleprompter word for word for highlights when I think it should come, somewhat, off the cuff.

Ron MacLean is the perfect example of the kind of guy I want running the show...knowledgeable, sharp wit, and willing to ask the tough question without being a douchebag about it. Now, I know you can't have a whole panel of guys like that, but he should be the model.

[Fidatelo]

Exactly...he's personable and I could see myself sitting down and having a beer with the guy while most of the clowns in broadcasting are sellouts...stiff, boring, and dry guys who read the teleprompter word for word for highlights when I think it should come, somewhat, off the cuff.

Ron MacLean is the perfect example of the kind of guy I want running the show...knowledgeable, sharp wit, and willing to ask the tough question without being a douchebag about it. Now, I know you can't have a whole panel of guys like that, but he should be the model.

I agree 100% on everything you've said here. At first I couldn't understand why PJ had gotten the job, but he grew on me really quickly. He officially had me sold last season when he made fun of a couple of guys who got 'left hanging' when looking for high-fives after goals, it absolutely killed me.

As for MacLean, he is one of a kind, and the CBC should never, ever let him go. I don't care if they have to give him his own territory or maybe even a province.

[Honolulu_Blue]

As for MacLean, he is one of a kind, and the CBC should never, ever let him go. I don't care if they have to give him his own territory or maybe even a province.

Agreed on MacLean. He is a perfect combination of smart, humble, witty, and knowledgeable. He is an excellent interviewer. The short speech he made during the Olympics when his mom died was a genuine and touching a moment you'll ever see on live TV.

[Chief Rum]

If Osgood got to start against the Ducks every night, he would be a combination of Roy-Hasek-Sawchuk come again. When the Ducks come to town, he must be whistling all freakin' day.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If Osgood got to start against the Ducks every night, he would be a combination of Roy-Hasek-Sawchuk come again. When the Ducks come to town, he must be whistling all freakin' day.

Ozzie was solid tonight. It certainly didn't hurt that the Wings out shot the Ducks 202-4 or something along those lines.

[johnnyshaka]

Agreed on MacLean. He is a perfect combination of smart, humble, witty, and knowledgeable. He is an excellent interviewer. The short speech he made during the Olympics when his mom died was a genuine and touching a moment you'll ever see on live TV.

I won't deny it, I couldn't even choke back the tears when I saw that.

[Chief Rum]

Ozzie was solid tonight. It certainly didn't hurt that the Wings out shot the Ducks 202-4 or something along those lines.

True, which wasn't helped by the Ducks having to play against the Canes yesterday afternoon and then flying a 1000 miles in the same time zone or whatever to play tonight. Would have been nice to steal a point tonight, since you guys pretty much stole a point from us in Anaheim last month.

But there's nothing more of a guarantee than Osgood against the Ducks at Joe Louis. You can count on that shit like the sun rising. The guy must have a Wild Wing stuffed doll with some voodoo sticks and psychedelic incense hidden in his locker. He would probably use it on more teams, but my guess is Chelios steals the incense to help make the pain go away.

[Draft Dodger]

I'd love to see Versus swap Col/Min for Ana/Det tonight. Pretty much anything Jacques Lemaire touches turns to zzzzzzz.

can't speak for the other game, but the Colorado Minnesota game was A-1 aces.

[Ajaxab]

can't speak for the other game, but the Colorado Minnesota game was A-1 aces.

Looks like I was left to enjoy that dish of crow last night. :)

[Logan]

I don't care if he's not a Ranger anymore, Sean Avery is still the man.

ESPN - Dallas Stars forward Sean Avery suspended indefinitely (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3740267)

The NHL has suspended Dallas Stars forward Sean Avery indefinitely pending a hearing with commissioner Gary Bettman.

The league says the suspension was imposed Tuesday after Avery made "inappropriate public comments, not pertaining to the game."

According to the Toronto Globe & Mail, Avery didn't wait for a question from reporters at Tuesday's morning skate in Calgary and asked if a camera was present.

"I am really happy to be back in Calgary, I love Canada," Avery said Tuesday morning. "I just want to comment on how it's become like a common thing in the NHL for guys to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I don't know what that's about. Enjoy the game tonight."

Avery's ex-girlfriend, actress Elisha Cuthbert, is dating Calgary's Dion Phaneuf.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

[Draft Dodger]

he's a dope, but that's hilarious

[Galaxy]

This coming from a guy who plays with dolls. Hilarious.

[Dr. Sak]

That whole thing cracked me up.

[duff88]

Avery has been suspended indefinitely for those comments. :popcorn:

[Maple Leafs]

It's honestly getting to the point where I think the Dallas Stars players need to put rocks in his pocked and roll him into the river.

[Dr. Sak]

It's honestly getting to the point where I think the Dallas Stars players need to put rocks in his pocked and roll him into the river.

That didn't work when your wife did that to you and he is a much better athlete.

[Maple Leafs]

The Dallas Stars rush to Avery's defense:

Here’s Stars owner Tom Hicks (via Dallas Stars press release):

“I completely support the league’s decision to suspend Sean Avery,” said Dallas Stars owner Thomas O. Hicks. “Had the league not have suspended him, the Dallas Stars would have. This organization will not tolerate such behavior, especially from a member of our hockey team. We hold our team to a higher standard and will continue to do so.”

His coach Dave Tippett (via Dallas Stars blog):

“It’s something that the league has taken action on and our owner has supported it. I think everyone in our room believes there is an integrity that has to go into the game - a respect for the game and a respect for your opponents, and Sean crossed that line.”

And his teammates (via Michael Farber, Sports Illustrated):

“We expect that out of him like we have all year,” said goaltender Marty Turco, who was critical of Avery’s agitation of Brodeur during the playoffs when it happened. “You know, the show continues. We all are competitive enough and focused to get out there and do your job. But when it continues over time, things certainly can be (distracting)."

Centre Brad Richards was more direct.

"It's none of my business what he says and I'd rather not talk about Sean," said Richards. "He's got his own thing going on."

Sources tell TSN the Stars are expected to send Avery home Wednesday morning.

[samifan24]

I guess I'm missing why this is a big deal. I'm very critical of players for their on-ice actions but I don't see why they would suspend him indefinitely and send him home for this. It was stupid and I would understand if they suspended him for a game and fined him but sending him home? They knew what they were getting into when they acquired him.

[Galaxy]

I guess I'm missing why this is a big deal. I'm very critical of players for their on-ice actions but I don't see why they would suspend him indefinitely and send him home for this. It was stupid and I would understand if they suspended him for a game and fined him but sending him home? They knew what they were getting into when they acquired him.

Personal attacks in public should not be tolerated. I think if the NHL didn't suspend him, it would be a very, very ugly game tonight.

[Logan]

Although I love the guy, I do agree that there's no place for personal attacks that don't have anything to do with hockey. Girlfriends, wives, children should all be off limits from public comments.

All that being said, the video of his comments is even better than the wording:

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[Fidatelo]

I think the most annoying thing is the way he basically scripted the whole thing. It was like his own little press conference. "Hey guys, come over here with the microphones for a seconds, I'm gonna be funny".

If someone had asked him about it, and that was his response, I'd think it was a little bit funny yet still stupid to say in front of reporters. But given the above, all I can say is: What a douchebag.

[DeToxRox]

Avery is great for the game. Every sport needs a bad guy, and Avery fits the bill. He is well spoken when he wants to be, and he is always finding a way to get headlines.

Plus he cracks me up.

[sterlingice]

Put me into the "I don't really get why this is a big deal" column

SI

[Honolulu_Blue]

Avery is great for the game. Every sport needs a bad guy, and Avery fits the bill. He is well spoken when he wants to be, and he is always finding a way to get headlines.

Plus he cracks me up.

I find Avery amusing for the same reasons. The regular season is a long, grueling grind and it's good to have characters like Avery spice things up a bit every now and then. That said, his "sloppy seconds" comment was pretty classless.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Put me into the "I don't really get why this is a big deal" column

A big +1.

Don't like it? Don't date his leftovers.

[bbor]

Hurricanes rehire Paul Maurice as coach!!!

[sachmo71]

The Dallas Stars rush to Avery's defense:

I'm getting the feeling he's not the most popular guy on the team.

[Maple Leafs]

Re: avery, why is it a big deal?

I think Mirtle nailed it today:
NHL right to suspend*Avery - From The Rink (http://www.fromtherink.com/2008/12/2/678289/nhl-right-to-suspend-avery)

It's fully understandable that many of those in the media (and blogosphere) are calling for a sideshow given the great copy it would produce, but I absolutely endorse what the NHL's done here. Promoting the game is one thing; childish, and downright crude and insulting, antics are another, and the last thing any professional sports league should be looking for is someone like Sean Avery setting the bar for what's in good taste.

To be honest, I'm a little taken aback at just how many hockey fans are calling the NHL on the carpet tonight. Why on earth should players' girlfriends, wives and families be subject to public slurs — no matter how benign — as part of some ridiculous Avery-orchestrated marketing campaign?

What if his next move is to dump on the daughters of opposing general managers? What if he does it when the Stars next game is against the Canadiens? And, hey, let's make fun of ol' Walter Gretzky while we're in Phoenix, too!

That is not how you build a brand. It's a sideshow, plain and simple, and if you rely on the Averys of the NHL to determine where the line is and if they can cross it, we're heading into ugly territory indeed.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Re: avery, why is it a big deal?

I think Mirtle nailed it today:
NHL right to suspend*Avery - From The Rink (http://www.fromtherink.com/2008/12/2/678289/nhl-right-to-suspend-avery)

I agree.

If Avery were to refer to Phaneuf's girlfriend as "sloppy seconds" while the two were on the ice and without a horde of microphones around, that'd be one thing. But doing it off ice, in front of the media and then throw on top of that the staged way it happened is really beyond good taste.

I like what Avery does more often than not because it's amusing, but I have nothing wrong with the NHL suspending him on this.

[Logan]

I like what Avery does more often than not because it's amusing, but I have nothing wrong with the NHL suspending him on this.

Agreed, and as I said, this is coming from a guy who loves his antics because when it comes down to it, he's just trying to annoy people while also being a very good hockey player. This was unneccessary.

[DeToxRox]

Well, I dunno that it's right. I mean Goodell is punishing everyone, and Brandon Marshall and Joey Porter have been calling each other gay in the media. I think that is quite a bit worse, and neither was suspended.

And Porter is more notorious inside football then Avery is inside hockey.

Bettman HATES Avery. It's that simple.

Now was the comment classless? Sure. But that is how so many hockey players are, I guess I am just used to it.

[Dr. Sak]

If Bettman's going to suspend Avery for talking about a bitch then he should suspend Crosby for being a bitch.

[DeToxRox]

If Bettman's going to suspend Avery for talking about a bitch then he should suspend Crosby for being a bitch.

SERVED.

[DeToxRox]

Dola .. I think that Bettman would've been better served to let Phaneuf handle the discipline. At least make Avery play, and then go from there.

Now we have to wait until February 3rd.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Well, I dunno that it's right. I mean Goodell is punishing everyone, and Brandon Marshall and Joey Porter have been calling each other gay in the media. I think that is quite a bit worse, and neither was suspended.

And Porter is more notorious inside football then Avery is inside hockey.

Bettman HATES Avery. It's that simple.

Now was the comment classless? Sure. But that is how so many hockey players are, I guess I am just used to it.

While it's hard to draw lines sometimes, I think the difference between Joey Porter and Avery is that Avery went after Phaneuf's girlfriend (not to mention Mike Comrie's and Jarret Stoll's girlfriends as well). Personal attacks on other players are one thing, personal attacks on girlfriends, wives, family, etc. are a slightly different breed.

Also, I'm sure things 100 times worse are said between players on the ice. Avery's past and the whole orchestrated nature of the comments certainly played a role. He sought out the reporters. It was totally staged.

I appreciate what Avery was trying to do (for example, I fully planned to record the game, but didn't once I heard Avery was suspended), but I don't think the NHL is too far off the mark on this one.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Dola .. I think that Bettman would've been better served to let Phaneuf handle the discipline. At least make Avery play, and then go from there.

Now we have to wait until February 3rd.

Well, like Harry Neale once said: "Revenge can be a luscious fruit if allowed to ripen."

[DeToxRox]

While it's hard to draw lines sometimes, I think the difference between Joey Porter and Avery is that Avery went after Phaneuf's girlfriend (not to mention Mike Comrie's and Jarret Stoll's girlfriends as well). Personal attacks on other players are one thing, personal attacks on girlfriends, wives, family, etc. are a slightly different breed.

Also, I'm sure things 100 times worse are said between players on the ice. Avery's past and the whole orchestrated nature of the comments certainly played a role. He sought out the reporters. It was totally staged.

I appreciate what Avery was trying to do (for example, I fully planned to record the game, but didn't once I heard Avery was suspended), but I don't think the NHL is too far off the mark on this one.

I understand the suspension .. Just not a fan of it. At least have a hearing before make indefinite. With anyone else I feel like they would've held them out for the night then decided from there.

[MikeVic]

I think past behaviour played a role, and that's totally justifiable.

[DeToxRox]

I think past behaviour played a role, and that's totally justifiable.

Again, I don't disagee, but every time he does something it feels like there is a knee-jerk reaction from the league. Obviously there is a problem with Avery but the NHL could use any publicity they can get, and a cocky punk calling out a Hollywood star who's boyfriend is a beast, and already hates Avery is great.

[Draft Dodger]

Dola .. I think that Bettman would've been better served to let Phaneuf handle the discipline. At least make Avery play, and then go from there.

Now we have to wait until February 3rd.

maybe Bettman realized that Phaneuf is a big pussy

[MikeVic]

maybe Bettman realized that Phaneuf is a big pussy

Whoa, I call penalty box for this statement.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Personal attacks on other players are one thing, personal attacks on girlfriends, wives, family, etc. are a slightly different breed.

But he was also going after his own ex('s)? So now that's policeable? I hope none of these guys end up in divorce court.

[gstelmack]

Hurricanes rehire Paul Maurice as coach!!!

WTF? (runs off to check WRAL)

If true, gee, the team has had trouble playing with passion SINCE THEY CAME TO NORTH CAROLINA, and we're going to bring back a coach who couldn't get them to do it to replace another one who couldn't?

Jim Rutherford seems to be admired in hockey circles, but year after year they put out a team that only plays hard in stretches. They played hard for one 6-month stretch and turned it into a Stanley Cup, but that's it. They've been an underachieving team for a long time, and something more fundamental has to change.

Or in other words, I think Maurice and Laviolette are both pretty good coaches, and I don't think either one is the problem here.

[gstelmack]

Wow, yup, it's true.

[DeToxRox]

Carolina needs Tortorella.

Talk about passion. I love that guy.

[Honolulu_Blue]

But he was also going after his own ex('s)? So now that's policeable?

I'd say ther/her status as Phaneuf's (Comrie's, Stoll's) girlfriend(s) trump(s) their/her status as "his own ex('s).

For example, let's say Cuthbert was now dating Brendan Fraser, Rachel Hunter was dating Keifer Sutherland and Hillary Duff was dating Jim Carrey (all Canadian actors) and Avery said:

"I am really happy to be back in Calgary, I love Canada. I just want to comment on how it's become like a common thing in the for actors to fall in love with my sloppy seconds. I don't know what that's about. Enjoy the game tonight."

That would be a very odd and random comment about Avery's ex's, but I don't think it would have led to him being suspended. I think the fact that he went after other players' SOs was, among other things, what made it suspensionable.

[samifan24]

If true, gee, the team has had trouble playing with passion SINCE THEY CAME TO NORTH CAROLINA, and we're going to bring back a coach who couldn't get them to do it to replace another one who couldn't?

We'll take them back up here in Connecticut, thank you very much.

[watravaler]

ESPN - NHL Attendance Leaders - National Hockey League (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance)

RNK TEAM AVG
1 Chicago 21,485
2 Montreal 21,273
3 Detroit 19,726
4 Toronto 19,311
5 Philadelphia 19,303
6 Calgary 19,289
7 Ottawa 19,031
8 St. Louis 18,978
9 Vancouver 18,630
10 Minnesota 18,568
11 Buffalo 18,562
12 NY Rangers 18,130
13 Dallas 17,816
14 Washington 17,765
15 San Jose 17,473
16 Edmonton 16,839
17 Anaheim 16,809
18 Pittsburgh 16,780
19 Tampa Bay 16,373
20 Colorado 16,272
21 Boston 16,169
22 Los Angeles 15,358
23 Florida 15,028
24 Carolina 14,843
25 Phoenix 14,703
26 New Jersey 14,668
27 Atlanta 13,988
28 Nashville 13,827
29 Columbus 13,781
30 NY Islanders 13,238


Was Bill Wirtz really the devil? Now it's time to start putting some chinks in Detroit's armor.

Side-Rant: Anyone else hate the way the standing are calculated?

Bring back the Patrick, Smythe, Adams, and Norris...bring back the old version of the playoffs(4 team divisional playoff) and I'll be happy. Minnesota/Detroit/Chicago should be in the same division :(

[Maple Leafs]

Side-Rant: Anyone else hate the way the standing are calculated?
No, I think it's fantastic that 25 or 26 teams finish over .500 every year. I think it really helps the NHL's credibility.

[Oilers9911]

Although I love the guy, I do agree that there's no place for personal attacks that don't have anything to do with hockey. Girlfriends, wives, children should all be off limits from public comments.

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How can ANYONE love Sean Avery? The guy is an idiot, and I think he is a borderline mental case.

[MikeVic]

ESPN - NHL Attendance Leaders - National Hockey League (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance)

RNK TEAM AVG
1 Chicago 21,485
2 Montreal 21,273
3 Detroit 19,726
4 Toronto 19,311
5 Philadelphia 19,303
6 Calgary 19,289
7 Ottawa 19,031
8 St. Louis 18,978
9 Vancouver 18,630
10 Minnesota 18,568
11 Buffalo 18,562
12 NY Rangers 18,130
13 Dallas 17,816
14 Washington 17,765
15 San Jose 17,473
16 Edmonton 16,839
17 Anaheim 16,809
18 Pittsburgh 16,780
19 Tampa Bay 16,373
20 Colorado 16,272
21 Boston 16,169
22 Los Angeles 15,358
23 Florida 15,028
24 Carolina 14,843
25 Phoenix 14,703
26 New Jersey 14,668
27 Atlanta 13,988
28 Nashville 13,827
29 Columbus 13,781
30 NY Islanders 13,238


Was Bill Wirtz really the devil? Now it's time to start putting some chinks in Detroit's armor.

Side-Rant: Anyone else hate the way the standing are calculated?

Bring back the Patrick, Smythe, Adams, and Norris...bring back the old version of the playoffs(4 team divisional playoff) and I'll be happy. Minnesota/Detroit/Chicago should be in the same division :(

Yeah you need Winnipeg in one of those divisions too.

[Fidatelo]

Between this talk of Smythe divisions and ML's obscure retro jersey post (http://www.downgoesbrown.com/2008/11/craig-berube-leafs.html) I just read, I'm almost sick to my stomach with renewed Jets nostalgia. I'm very concerned that I'll find myself phoning around trying to order a custom Luciano Borsato jersey this weekend.

[MikeVic]

Who was the up-and-coming young stud #40 in the early NHL games? Evgeny Davydov?

[Fidatelo]

Oh how I loved Davydov! I had multiple copies of his rookie cards, I thought I was going to be rich some day.

[Fidatelo]

I don't think he was number 40 though... I'm going to look it up.

[Fidatelo]

Looks like Davydov was #11 and #40, so we are both right! :)

[Ajaxab]

I'll never forget Davydov getting his head split open by that camera in Edmonton during one of the Jets' epic playoff runs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think the fact that he went after other players' SOs was, among other things, what made it suspensionable.

And I'm still flabbergasted that taking a mild and accurate poke at somebody about who their dating is actionable. Seems more like Bettman power tripping than anything else AFAIC.

[Suburban Rhythm]

We'll take them back up here in Connecticut, thank you very much.

playing for the Wolfpack?

He's an idiot. I don't know if it's suspendable, but he's an idiot.

This has probably already been said but, he acts like he was her first....maybe 101st, but not first. Send him back to Vogue and get him out of the NHL.

[johnnyshaka]

Just because it's accurate doesn't mean it needs to be said in front of a gallery of cameras and tape recorders.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Also agree with others, suspend him AFTER the Calgary game. Let Phaneuf chase him around, let Avery turtle. Let that at least happen first.

[johnnyshaka]

Also agree with others, suspend him AFTER the Calgary game. Let Phaneuf chase him around, let Avery turtle. Let that at least happen first.

Why?? So Phaneuf can land himself in hot water with Colin Campbell after he opens up Avery's for face for 15 stitches?? Yeah, that makes sense.

Chain Avery and PacMan Jones together at the ankles and let them loose in Vegas with a camera crew following them...leave the NHL (and the NFL) alone.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Why?? So Phaneuf can land himself in hot water with Colin Campbell after he opens up Avery's for face for 15 stitches?? Yeah, that makes sense.

Chain Avery and PacMan Jones together at the ankles and let them loose in Vegas with a camera crew following them...leave the NHL (and the NFL) alone.

It doesn't make sense for Phaneuf or for Calgary as a team. But for everyone else, they'd be rooting for it.

I wonder if they could have given Avery an extra 2 for instigating?

[Draft Dodger]

Why?? So Phaneuf can land himself in hot water with Colin Campbell after he opens up Avery's for face for 15 stitches?? Yeah, that makes sense.


seriously, you guys HAVE watched Phaneuf play, right? Are we talking about a brother of his or something?

[johnnyshaka]

Sure, I've seen Phaneuf NOT fight...yer right...but that bastard can hit like the best of them.

[Honolulu_Blue]

seriously, you guys HAVE watched Phaneuf play, right? Are we talking about a brother of his or something?

I agree with, DD. Phaneuf is big and strong, but he tends to shrink away from this kind of thing. I remember back in the 2007 playoffs when the Wings had Bertuzzi. Just the mere presence of Bertuzzi was enough to make Phanuef all sheepish and quiet.

As entertaining as the game last night might have been if Avery was kept in the line-up (if Phanuef didn't do something it's likely someone on Calgary would have), I am not sure that would have been good for the league. It had the potential to turn into a pretty ugly affair.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just because it's accurate doesn't mean it needs to be said in front of a gallery of cameras and tape recorders.

Yeah, since that whole "no personality allowed" thing is working out so well for NASCAR these days.

Sorry, but Avery is easily one of the ten most entertaining things about the NHL at this point, it's beyond idiotic of them to do anything to muzzle the guy over something as insignificant as this.

[johnnyshaka]

Yeah, since that whole "no personality allowed" thing is working out so well for NASCAR these days.

Sorry, but Avery is easily one of the ten most entertaining things about the NHL at this point, it's beyond idiotic of them to do anything to muzzle the guy over something as insignificant as this.

Precisely why he has to go...antics like his take away from the true ten most entertaining things about the NHL.

Flip it over to Jackass or The Real World if you want to watch Avery-like entertainment.

[samifan24]

playing for the Wolfpack?

The Jets fans here can relate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Precisely why he has to go...antics like his take away from the true ten most entertaining things about the NHL.

Riiiiight. :lol:

I'm not sure at this point there are even ten entertaining things left in the league ... and that's coming from a guy who is even willing to follow minor league hockey a good bit closer than the average consumer (i.e. it's not as though I don't have some degree of interest otherwise).

Teams are largely generic, ditto the players, at least Avery has some personality to make him compelling. Even the most skilled/flashiest players are starting to become fairly interchangeable to me at this point.

[Draft Dodger]

As entertaining as the game last night might have been if Avery was kept in the line-up (if Phanuef didn't do something it's likely someone on Calgary would have), I am not sure that would have been good for the league. It had the potential to turn into a pretty ugly affair.

oh come on, you think a guy like Bertuzzi would pull some stupid shit?

[Fidatelo]

Riiiiight. :lol:

I'm not sure at this point there are even ten entertaining things left in the league ... and that's coming from a guy who is even willing to follow minor league hockey a good bit closer than the average consumer (i.e. it's not as though I don't have some degree of interest otherwise).

Teams are largely generic, ditto the players, at least Avery has some personality to make him compelling. Even the most skilled/flashiest players are starting to become fairly interchangeable to me at this point.

Stick to wrestling if you want sports entertainment, and leave hockey alone. You don't have to be a douchebag to be a good quote.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Stick to wrestling if you want sports entertainment, and leave hockey alone.

Long way between full-time SE and having at least a few interesting personalities in a sport. Avery is one of the precious few of the latter in hockey today, a sport who has enough marketing handicaps without trying to make every player as dull as possible.

[chrisj]

Yeah, since that whole "no personality allowed" thing is working out so well for NASCAR these days.

Sorry, but Avery is easily one of the ten most entertaining things about the NHL at this point, it's beyond idiotic of them to do anything to muzzle the guy over something as insignificant as this.


You're right. I'm sure we can all have more fun on this forum to if we go insulting the significant others of posters on this board too. There isn't a line that can be crossed at all - is there?

Come on - this guy went up to the reporters, asked the camera guy to turn his camera on, and then said this obviously reheased line - that was pathetic. I don't see how anything like that should be encouraged.

[johnnyshaka]

Riiiiight. :lol:

I'm not sure at this point there are even ten entertaining things left in the league ... and that's coming from a guy who is even willing to follow minor league hockey a good bit closer than the average consumer (i.e. it's not as though I don't have some degree of interest otherwise).

Teams are largely generic, ditto the players, at least Avery has some personality to make him compelling. Even the most skilled/flashiest players are starting to become fairly interchangeable to me at this point.

Hey, I hear ya, the talent is diluted and the league could stand to fold 6 teams but that doesn't change the fact that Avery, and douches like him, are a drain and a black eye on the league.

[Fidatelo]

Long way between full-time SE and having at least a few interesting personalities in a sport. Avery is one of the precious few of the latter in hockey today, a sport who has enough marketing handicaps without trying to make every player as dull as possible.

Your point would resonate with me more if your wife wasn't such an inbred hick.

Hey check it out guys! I'm cool!

[JonInMiddleGA]

You're right. I'm sure we can all have more fun on this forum to if we go insulting the significant others of posters on this board too. There isn't a line that can be crossed at all - is there?

Is that significant other your ex?

I'm just not seeing the issue here at all. Jokes about that sort of thing aren't exactly anything new, and definitely nothing new in a jockocracy or even just in a male dominated environment. Not even remotely OOB in my opinion nor in my experience.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Your point would resonate with me more if your wife wasn't such an inbred hick. Hey check it out guys! I'm cool!

I'll just hang around & wait for someone else to not get what you were shooting for there. Has reasonable unintentional comedy value if the predictable misunderstanding occurs.

Then again, it's almost certainly completely irrelevant to the situation at hand since the odds of you having dated her in the past are relatively slim.

[Fidatelo]

I'll just hang around & wait for someone else to not get what you were shooting for there. Has reasonable unintentional comedy value if the predictable misunderstanding occurs.

Then again, it's almost certainly completely irrelevant to the situation at hand since the odds of you having dated her in the past are relatively slim.

Who said 'past'? I'm dating that ho right now! Uhhhnnn!

Anyways, I'm not surprised that we disagree on this, nor am I surprised that you don't get what I was aiming at.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anyways, I'm not surprised that we disagree on this, nor am I surprised that you don't get what I was aiming at.

No, I'm pretty sure I got it, I was referring to the likelihood that someone else wouldn't. But what you seem likely to have been aiming for has nothing whatsoever in common with what Avery did. He has a direct connection to the ex's, whereas your example with me/mine is random.

[johnnyshaka]

I'm just not seeing the issue here at all. Jokes about that sort of thing aren't exactly anything new, and definitely nothing new in a jockocracy or even just in a male dominated environment. Not even remotely OOB in my opinion nor in my experience.

You're right, it's a joke and between guys it wouldn't even garner a second thought but when you make that comment in front a dozen media folk with their recording devices pointing right at you, then you're no longer joking around with your buddies...you are making a statement to who knows how many millions of people...most of whom aren't your buddies.

Next time you're in front of a dozen TV cameras I dare you to call one of your male competitors/co-workers (but that person has to have kids) a mofo. I know if I did that I'd be reprimanded but more likely fired...why should Avery be treated any differently?

[Fidatelo]

No, I'm pretty sure I got it, I was referring to the likelihood that someone else wouldn't. But what you seem likely to have been aiming for has nothing whatsoever in common with what Avery did. He has a direct connection to the ex's, whereas your example with me/mine is random.

I don't really care that he has a direct connection or not, the statement as it was delivered (like a little PSA) is retarded and uncalled for either way. My point is that both he and I were acting like douchebags trying to get attention.

And as johnny points out above, if I said anything remotely similar at the speaking engagement I'm doing tomorrow, I'd get canned so fast my head would spin.

[RomaGoth]

I have a few comments on all of this, amongst other things.


Avery is a moron, always was and always will be. I also believe that he has mental problems, not just because of this incident but because of other things he has done in the past.
Yet another reason the Red Wings are the best run sports franchise in all of sports (yes, including the Patriots). The Wings drafted and later dumped Avery. Another good move, as all he is bringing to the NHL, the Dallas Stars, and himself is embarrassment.
I noticed in an earlier post discussion of the old NHL. I also miss those days. I remember Davydov and Borsato. What about the great Thomas Steen? He played with a lot of passion in a town that never appreciated him or his team. I have had numerous discussions with my friends about the current state of the NHL. If it was up to me, the NHL would drop around 10-12 teams, put Toronto and Detroit back in the same division, and restore teams like Dallas and Carolina to their former cities. This would help alleviate all of the average players that now play in the NHL, and allow the great players more room to skate and make plays. There are just too many Georges Laraques in the game now, it is ugly some nights.
Gary Bettman is an idiot. He has nearly single-handedly destroyed the NHL with all of his ridiculous expansion nonsense (Florida?)(Columbus?). The NHL needs to fire his dumb ass and hire someone who actually cares about the game.
Despite all of the above problems with the NHL and hockey in general, it is the greatest sport in the world. Long live the NHL!!

[Travis]

I have a few comments on all of this, amongst other things.

Avery is a moron, always was and always will be. I also believe that he has mental problems, not just because of this incident but because of other things he has done in the past.
Yet another reason the Red Wings are the best run sports franchise in all of sports (yes, including the Patriots). The Wings drafted and later dumped Avery. Another good move, as all he is bringing to the NHL, the Dallas Stars, and himself is embarrassment.
I noticed in an earlier post discussion of the old NHL. I also miss those days. I remember Davydov and Borsato. What about the great Thomas Steen? He played with a lot of passion in a town that never appreciated him or his team. I have had numerous discussions with my friends about the current state of the NHL. If it was up to me, the NHL would drop around 10-12 teams, put Toronto and Detroit back in the same division, and restore teams like Dallas and Carolina to their former cities. This would help alleviate all of the average players that now play in the NHL, and allow the great players more room to skate and make plays. There are just too many Georges Laraques in the game now, it is ugly some nights.
Gary Bettman is an idiot. He has nearly single-handedly destroyed the NHL with all of his ridiculous expansion nonsense (Florida?)(Columbus?). The NHL needs to fire his dumb ass and hire someone who actually cares about the game.
Despite all of the above problems with the NHL and hockey in general, it is the greatest sport in the world. Long live the NHL!!

To be kind of nitpicky, while Laraque may not be a even a very good hockey player he is probably the best fighter in the league as well as a great ambassador for the sport. The charity work he continues to do in Edmonton is an example a lot of other players can learn from and very rarely will you hear about him taking runs or cheap shots at players (it does happen, but generally speaking, he's as gentlemanly an enforcer as there is). If nothing else he was forced out of Edmonton because he was seen to be too respectful on the ice and the brass (and a lot of the fans) never realized how good of a deterrent he was even though he wouldn't get his hands as dirty as a lot of people wanted him to do.

I too would like to see the league cut down the number of teams to improve the general quality of play and this would likely mean the end of Laraque's career but there are many players out there who don't bring to the ice what he does, never mind what he does for the sport away from the rink. It's just a shame that this guy rarely seems to get his due for making the most of what he has and doing a lot of good for a lot of others in appreciation for the career he's been afforded.

[RomaGoth]

His name just happened to come to mind first. I don't necessarily think he is a bad hockey player. I would take him over Avery any day. My point was that there are just too many "wannabes" in the NHL now because of all the teams in the league.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yet another reason the Red Wings are the best run sports franchise in all of sports (yes, including the Patriots). The Wings drafted and later dumped Avery. Another good move, as all he is bringing to the NHL, the Dallas Stars, and himself is embarrassment.

The Wings didn't draft him, but they did give him his best shot at making the NHL. They signed him to a free agent tryout agreement and he made the team that way. Getting rid of him was wise.

[Fidatelo]

I noticed in an earlier post discussion of the old NHL. I also miss those days. I remember Davydov and Borsato. What about the great Thomas Steen? He played with a lot of passion in a town that never appreciated him or his team.

What crack are you smoking that makes you think Winnipeg fans didn't appreciate Thomas Steen? Or our team, for that matter? Give me a break.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know if I did that I'd be reprimanded but more likely fired...why should Avery be treated any differently?

Ever watched a boxing press conference?

[johnnyshaka]

Ever watched a boxing press conference?

LOL...and boxing is the model for which any and all organizations should look to for guidance.

So, did you enjoy watching any hockey last night when every intermission was filled with Avery-related backlash whether it be his apology, reaction from teammates/coaches/management, or analysis from every so-called expert?? I know I didn't. I also didn't enjoy having to hear about Avery this and Avery that during the Oilers/Stars telecast last night when he wasn't even playing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

LOL...and boxing is the model for which any and all organizations should look to for guidance.

As opposed to the vast success the NHL is experiencing drawing viewers or interest?

So, did you enjoy watching any hockey last night when every intermission was filled with Avery-related backlash whether it be his apology, reaction from teammates/coaches/management, or analysis from every so-called expert?? I know I didn't. I also didn't enjoy having to hear about Avery this and Avery that during the Oilers/Stars telecast last night when he wasn't even playing.

Worse yet, I didn't even bother looking for any hockey on TV ... just like the vast majority of the country. I had no interest in hearing a guy get ripped for cracking what I consider to be a very mild joke at worst.

[Draft Dodger]

Sean Avery should be suspended for wearing these sunglasses:

http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20081204/avery_54086.jpg

[johnnyshaka]

As opposed to the vast success the NHL is experiencing drawing viewers or interest?

Worse yet, I didn't even bother looking for any hockey on TV ... just like the vast majority of the country. I had no interest in hearing a guy get ripped for cracking what I consider to be a very mild joke at worst.

I'm fine with the majority of the US not caring about hockey but what bugs me is that you think that having Avery in the league increases the US' interest in the NHL. If that's true, that's a pretty sad statement about the US...but I highly doubt it's true.

So the NHL, his teammates, his coaches, the Stars' front office, players around the league, NHL pundits, news broadcasters around the world, newspapers around the world, websites around the world all need to chill out and smack a bitch, right? Afterall, it was just a joke, and a very mild one, at that.

[Suburban Rhythm]

To be kind of nitpicky, while Laraque may not be a even a very good hockey player he is probably the best fighter in the league as well as a great ambassador for the sport. The charity work he continues to do in Edmonton is an example a lot of other players can learn from and very rarely will you hear about him taking runs or cheap shots at players (it does happen, but generally speaking, he's as gentlemanly an enforcer as there is). If nothing else he was forced out of Edmonton because he was seen to be too respectful on the ice and the brass (and a lot of the fans) never realized how good of a deterrent he was even though he wouldn't get his hands as dirty as a lot of people wanted him to do.

I too would like to see the league cut down the number of teams to improve the general quality of play and this would likely mean the end of Laraque's career but there are many players out there who don't bring to the ice what he does, never mind what he does for the sport away from the rink. It's just a shame that this guy rarely seems to get his due for making the most of what he has and doing a lot of good for a lot of others in appreciation for the career he's been afforded.

PING Dr Sak to bring up his slide tackle on Biron :D

But agree, he did tons while here for a short time in Pittsburgh. His problem was he became ineffective at his job because he is so gentlemanly.

One of his fights with Riley Cote, Laraque knocked Cote down to his knees with the 2nd or 3rd punch. Cote begged the refs let it continue...and Laraque helped him back up before punching him again.

Back to Avery, I think one of the big issues is, for whatever reason, the NHL has been mostly devoid of assholes. Sure guys like Hull and Roenick liked to yap, but they kept it pretty much in line. The NFL culture of you can shoot people in the offseason, get traded to a new team, get a 2nd chance, fight your bodyguard, get drunk, suspended again, and get a 3rd chance is expected now. Those guys don't exist in the NHL...other than Avery.

That said, he's a side-show. If you are watching the NHL because you find him "entertaining", then you don't care that it's hockey (or football, baseball, NASCAR, whatever), just that some jackass makes you laugh.

[bhlloy]

FWIW, I don't think reducing the number of teams would lead to the end of Laraque's career. I still think you would have the traditional lines (1st and 2nd scoring, 3rd shut down, 4th energy/grinder) and teams would need to protect their stars just as much. I think you'd see more one dimensional offensive guys lose their jobs than you would guys like Laraque. Look at how many enforcers teams carried in the early 80's when there was way less talent dilution.

Oh, and it's particularly funny you chose Laraque as the example, seeing as he's probably the best in the league at his particular role (and is one of the better skilled fighters as well) Now Mitch Fritz or Eric Godard, maybe we can agree on :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm fine with the majority of the US not caring about hockey but what bugs me is that you think that having Avery in the league increases the US' interest in the NHL. If that's true, that's a pretty sad statement about the US...but I highly doubt it's true.

I think he has a better chance of being found interesting as a character than the majority of clones in the league, yeah. Let's be realistic here
1) He speaks English
2) He has a personality (good, bad, indifferent, at least there is one)

And that's more than can be said for a sizable percentage of the league.

So the NHL, his teammates, his coaches, the Stars' front office, players around the league, NHL pundits, news broadcasters around the world, newspapers around the world, websites around the world all need to chill out and smack a bitch, right? Afterall, it was just a joke, and a very mild one, at that.

With absolute sincerity honesty, I'm flabbergasted by this even causing a batted eyelash. And has really caused me to question whether there's some sand caught in a number of unexpectedly sensitive places. To me this seems like far more of a mountain/molehill than even the NFL has managed to come up with in recent years, which isn't always an easy standard to top.

Was it silly? Yep.
Was it less than a laugh riot? Yep. Not a horrible fail but nothing that should have him considering a career in stand-up either.
Was it worth even ten seconds of concern? Not on my planet.

[Fidatelo]

Was it worth even ten seconds of concern? Not on my planet.

I think at this point it's been well established that you live on a much different planet than the majority of FOFC'ers.

[Maple Leafs]

Bring back the Norris! (http://www.downgoesbrown.com/2008/10/norris-division-tough-guys.html)

God, I miss hockey in the early 90s. I miss scoring chances and end-to-end rushes and fights and actual rivalries and guys playing with honor and real arenas and fans that made noise and home-and-home series and not being told to buy a new jersey every month and playoffs that meant playing every second night whether you were tired or not.

If anyone needs my I'll be on my porch yelling at teenagers.

[johnnyshaka]

I think he has a better chance of being found interesting as a character than the majority of clones in the league, yeah. Let's be realistic here
1) He speaks English
2) He has a personality (good, bad, indifferent, at least there is one)

If you're more interested in the interview after the game with "a personality" instead of the product on the ice, field, floor, etc...then, I'm sorry, you'll never be satisfied. These are top level athletes getting paid to do what they do best...play a sport...and that's the way it should be. If you want standup comedy...go to a club...if you want drama...get really drunk and go to a club.

What you're looking for has already failed several times...anybody remember the XFL?? Not even the US will support a league that relies on blatantly tasteless "entertainment" and that was football...well, it was supposed to be football. Why would hockey try to go that route when it isn't even considered a major sport in the US?

If Americans don't like hockey...that's OK...the NHL will survive one way or another...it's done pretty well during it's first 90+ years.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Bring back the Norris! (http://www.downgoesbrown.com/2008/10/norris-division-tough-guys.html)

God, I miss hockey in the early 90s. I miss scoring chances and end-to-end rushes and fights and actual rivalries and guys playing with honor and real arenas and fans that made noise and home-and-home series and not being told to buy a new jersey every month and playoffs that meant playing every second night whether you were tired or not.

If anyone needs my I'll be on my porch yelling at teenagers.

Except for the whole the Red Wings kind of sucking during that era, I concur.

[johnnyshaka]

Except for the whole the Red Wings kind of sucking during that era, I concur.

That's funny, HB, because I can't honestly remember the Wings sucking.

[bbor]

That's funny, HB, because I can't honestly remember the Wings sucking.


I don't remember them ever being good :D

[Fidatelo]

The entire Norris division was pretty weak back in the 80's for the most part.

[Fidatelo]

If you're more interested in the interview after the game with "a personality" instead of the product on the ice, field, floor, etc...then, I'm sorry, you'll never be satisfied. These are top level athletes getting paid to do what they do best...play a sport...and that's the way it should be. If you want standup comedy...go to a club...if you want drama...get really drunk and go to a club.

What you're looking for has already failed several times...anybody remember the XFL?? Not even the US will support a league that relies on blatantly tasteless "entertainment" and that was football...well, it was supposed to be football. Why would hockey try to go that route when it isn't even considered a major sport in the US?

If Americans don't like hockey...that's OK...the NHL will survive one way or another...it's done pretty well during it's first 90+ years.

Well Said. +1.

[Honolulu_Blue]

That's funny, HB, because I can't honestly remember the Wings sucking.

The early 90s was the Tim Cheveldae Era. It wasn't all that grand.

89-90: The Wings were abysmal. They were last in the Norris and missed the playoffs.

90-91: The Wings were 3rd in the Norris and lost in the first round to St. Louis.

91-92: The first year the Wings really began to become a force. It was Lidstrom's rookie year, Fedorov's second year, but Cheveldae was still in net. They They won the Norris, beat the Northstars in a 7 game series and then promptly got swept by the Blackhawks in the second round.

92-93: More of the same, but this time around the Wings lost in the first round, in game 7, in overtime to Nikolai Borschevsky.

That season marked the end of the Norris Division.

93-94: Despite the lack of a Norris Division, this was still in "early 90s", since it was before the Devils won the Cup and the whole trap thing. The Wings had 100 pts. They were first in the Central Division and then promptly lost in the first round to an expansion team (San Jose) with the winning goal coming on a bad giveaway by Osgood to Jamie Baker. (This was my darkest moment as a fan.)

So, maybe the Wings didn't quite "suck" during the early 90s (they did the first season), but there were many playoff disasters.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The entire Norris division was pretty weak back in the 80's for the most part.

What do you know about all of that? All you were doing back then was hating on Thomas Steen and the team he played for. Ingrate.

[Chief Rum]

The early 90s was the Tim Cheveldae Era. It wasn't all that grand.

89-90: The Wings were abysmal. They were last in the Norris and missed the playoffs.

90-91: The Wings were 3rd in the Norris and lost in the first round to St. Louis.

91-92: The first year the Wings really began to become a force. It was Lidstrom's rookie year, Fedorov's second year, but Cheveldae was still in net. They They won the Norris, beat the Northstars in a 7 game series and then promptly got swept by the Blackhawks in the second round.

92-93: More of the same, but this time around the Wings lost in the first round, in game 7, in overtime to Nikolai Borschevsky.

That season marked the end of the Norris Division.

93-94: Despite the lack of a Norris Division, this was still in "early 90s", since it was before the Devils won the Cup and the whole trap thing. The Wings had 100 pts. They were first in the Central Division and then promptly lost in the first round to an expansion team (San Jose) with the winning goal coming on a bad giveaway by Osgood to Jamie Baker. (This was my darkest moment as a fan.)

So, maybe the Wings didn't quite "suck" during the early 90s (they did the first season), but there were many playoff disasters.

You see, this is why other teams' fans hate the Red Wings. ;)

[MikeVic]

Tim Cheveldae heh.

[Dr. Sak]

PING Dr Sak to bring up his slide tackle on Biron :D


You mean this...

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Overall I like Laraque, just not in that case. He didn't take cheap shots while fighting and like you said with Cote, he gave the other guy every chance to have an even fight. He also does a lot of work outside of hockey for the community.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If you're more interested in the interview after the game with "a personality" instead of the product on the ice, field, floor, etc...then, I'm sorry, you'll never be satisfied.

Sigh. Who said anything about "more" interested? I'm simply suggesting that a little personality can be a part of the overall package and is a net positive. And interesting personalities are something that's in short supply in the NHL.

These are top level athletes getting paid to do what they do best...play a sport...

Wrong. They're getting paid to put butts in seats and generate enough revenue through other means to support their salaries and the continued interest & investment of the owners. Part of doing that is by {gasp} providing entertainment. And personalities entertain and more importantly they sell. Nobody is suggesting that every player needs to wear floppy shoes and turn cartwheels (especially if that isn't them) but when you happen across a player who actually has some personality it's idiotic to stifle it and even more idiotic to do so when you're struggling to maintain any relevance. And even moreso when it's someone on a team that's dead last in it's conference and among the worst draws on the road.

If Americans don't like hockey...that's OK...the NHL will survive one way or another...it's done pretty well during it's first 90+ years.

Not in any recognizable form as a major professional sport it wouldn't. But maybe it could be a semi-pro league like the CFL.

[Honolulu_Blue]

You see, this is why other teams' fans hate the Red Wings. ;)

I think this pretty sums up the proper response:

Tim Cheveldae heh.

[Fidatelo]

Not in any recognizable form as a major professional sport it wouldn't. But maybe it could be a semi-pro league like the CFL.

What makes the CFL 'semi-pro' exactly? The fact that Americans don't care?

[Fidatelo]

What do you know about all of that? All you were doing back then was hating on Thomas Steen and the team he played for. Ingrate.

:D

[JonInMiddleGA]

What makes the CFL 'semi-pro' exactly? The fact that Americans don't care?

If you have to ask ... then you're not going to like the realistic answer.

[Fidatelo]

If you have to ask ... then you're not going to like the realistic answer.

Of course I won't, but lets hear it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Of course I won't, but lets hear it.

The CFL is just a bunch of the NCCA's and NFL's sloppy seconds.

SUSPEND ME I DONT CARE

[RomaGoth]

What crack are you smoking that makes you think Winnipeg fans didn't appreciate Thomas Steen? Or our team, for that matter? Give me a break.

I blame Gary Bettman for everything wrong with the NHL, but would the Jets have moved if Winnipeg supported its team? Just asking....?

[RomaGoth]

Tim Cheveldae heh.

Yeah he was something all right. I also remember Norm Maracle......Glen Hanlon......Greg Stefan......Bob Essensa........

[johnnyshaka]

I'm simply suggesting that a little personality can be a part of the overall package and is a net positive.

...but when you happen across a player who actually has some personality it's idiotic to stifle it and even more idiotic to do so when you're struggling to maintain any relevance. And even moreso when it's someone on a team that's dead last in it's conference and among the worst draws on the road.

So guys like Avery are a "net positive" yet the Stars are in last place AND one of the worst draws on the road...I'm confused. You've just said that fans aren't willing to pay to watch Sean "Look At Me, Look What I'm Doing" Avery so why in the world would the league need more guys like him??

Wrong. They're getting paid to put butts in seats and generate enough revenue through other means to support their salaries and the continued interest & investment of the owners. Part of doing that is by {gasp} providing entertainment. And personalities entertain and more importantly they sell.

So, why are guys like Avery going undrafted by NHL teams if they are so vital to the success of their teams? Do you really think the average fan sits at home says to himself,

"Hmmm, the Stars and Sean Avery are coming to town this week but so are the Red Wings, Penguins, and the Capitals and I've only got time and money to go to one of the games. Boy, the Red Wings and all their Swedes aren't any fun to watch...Crosby and Malkin are boring...Ovetchkin and Semin, zzzzzzz...AVERY IS AWESOME...I'm definitely going to see him...is that Madamo or Modimo or Modano guy still there??"

Not in any recognizable form as a major professional sport it wouldn't.

Could care less if you or anybody else considers it a major professional sport or not, it's the best hockey league in the world whether you like it or not.

But maybe it could be a semi-pro league like the CFL.

Where do the best football players in the world play? The NFL. Where do the best hockey players in the world play? The NHL.

So how is the NHL like the CFL again?

[JonInMiddleGA]

So how is the NHL like the CFL again?

At the moment it isn't. Take the US teams (and more importantly) and money out of the picture ... and it gets to compete for utter irrelevancy with pro lacrosse and water polo.

edit to add: Sorry but if reality is really that disturbing to you, don't live in the 51st state.

[MikeVic]

This thread has made me angry over the past page.

[Honolulu_Blue]

This thread has made me angry over the past page.

So Tim Cheveldae's name does that to you too, eh?

I hear you, my brother.

[johnnyshaka]

At the moment it isn't. Take the US teams (and more importantly) and money out of the picture ... and it gets to compete for utter irrelevancy with pro lacrosse and water polo.

edit to add: Sorry but if reality is really that disturbing to you, don't live in the 51st state.

Heh. Life is just peachy up here...it's December and I haven't had to shovel snow once...how could life be any better?

The NHL survived before they had 20+ teams in the US and they would be just fine with half that many teams south of the border. Believe it or not, there are solid hockey markets in the States that do support their Avery-less teams.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The NHL survived before they had 20+ teams in the US and they would be just fine with half that many teams south of the border.

The league might in some form or fashion ... but ask the players how they'd like the reduced salary.

[johnnyshaka]

The league might in some form or fashion ... but ask the players how they'd like the reduced salary.

LOL!! Any idea how many leagues there are around the world where guys make just enough to pay the bills...and sometimes less?? Nobody likes to take a pay cut, true, but there are even more guys out there that would quit their 9-5 gig to make less money to play hockey, baseball, football, etc...not so many that would go the other way, though, I'm afraid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nobody likes to take a pay cut, true, but there are even more guys out there that would quit their 9-5 gig to make less money to play hockey, baseball, football, etc

Wait a minute. What happened to your whole "best players in the world" argument from earlier? What would ham & eggers even have to do with the situation ... unless you're facing becoming a semi-pro league.

Population leads to money ... money leads to attracting & retaining top talent, which is more difficult/expensive in a landscape where there are more options than ever.

The NHL -- both the American owners & the Canadian owners -- needs the revenue (both realized & potential) that comes from being heavily vested in the U.S. There's clearly more fan support in most of Canada than in the U.S. but the vast population differences in available markets means a great deal in big picture. It would be shortsighted for either to hypothetically break away from the other because of that.

My point is, and has been throughout the thread, that it seems incredibly shortsighted for the league to suspend Avery for his comments when he's done more to generate media interest (and consequently an opportunity for interest among the general public) in a few days than 10 *Patrick Marleau's have done or will do in a lifetime.

A league full of Avery's likely wouldn't work on a national scale & I'm not suggesting they would. The Malkin's/Crosby's/Ovechkin's provide the skill with flash to be the primary focal points. But those guys are considerably more marketable with a few Avery's in the mix for flavor. Heroes need villains to play off, how many people in recent memory have been better suited for the role than Avery?

Look (and hopefully learn) from the example that NASCAR provides. A primarily regional sport that grew beyond anyone's wildest imagination in large part due to the personalities that emerged. And it seems no coincidence that they've hit a plateau as they (in part) legislated most of those personalities out of the business. Avery at least provides the potential for a watershed moment along the lines of the Allison/Yarborough infield fight at Daytona in '79. That was not the most dramatic moment in the sport nor the most exciting by a long shot ... but it was one of the most interesting & became one of the defining moments. There hasn't been a defining moment in hockey for the majority of the available North American audience since Al Michaels talked about miracles and even that has virtually no connection to the NHL.

*I picked Marleau's name at random as part of the guys currently tied for 10th in league scoring. Nothing more or less than that should be implied by use of him as an example.

[Fidatelo]

I think what I'm learning here is that douchebags enjoy watching other douchebags, and don't understand why people that aren't douchebags would not have the same reaction.

[Travis]

At the moment it isn't. Take the US teams (and more importantly) and money out of the picture ... and it gets to compete for utter irrelevancy with pro lacrosse and water polo.

edit to add: Sorry but if reality is really that disturbing to you, don't live in the 51st state.

So let me get this straight.

a) you're saying Avery is good for the sport and will attract the sort of fans the NHL should be trying to attract.

b) you're comparing teams in a league with a $50+ million salary cap to a league where it's an exception for a player to make a million per year.

c) you believe that Avery has done more for the sport than a top 10 scorer in the league. Funny that you should pick Marleau, by far the most vanilla of the 3 tied for that spot (randomly of course) when the other two (Iginla and Kane) are both guys who attract fans for the sport for very good reasons and are the type of players the league should be pushing, not Avery.

I'm happy with the NHL's decision to take Avery to task for this. They've been too lenient with him in the past and this incident brought everything to a head. Those are not the sort of comments the league wants representing them and there's people out there who will see that story and respect the league for that just as there are people out there who'll see the story and figure that the league is over reacting. The NHL is trying to build a product and image and they apparently don't want something like this to be a part of it. Had he said it on the ice to Phaneuf and drawn a penalty I'd have thought he was a gutless punk (as he would have turtled of course) but that would have been part of the game (trash talk will always be in there, some better than others, some over the line as Avery has been in the past). Seeking out a camera to spout off derogatory comments about people not even in the sport for the sake of getting his face on TV is a totally different story and one I'm glad the NHL is discouraging.

The NHL has marketing issues, no doubt, one of them is not that they refuse to promote or encourage Avery. They've got the best players in the world and a product that is as exciting if not more so than other major North American sports. The biggest issue is undertanding of the game in markets where generally the weather makes it not a natural choice to play growing up. Whether it's better to attempt to grow the sport in those markets or to potentially look at expanding to other places (across the ocean) where interest is higher and potentially creating almost an AL/NL sort of situation would be a hell of a debate. Using Avery as a spokesman, well, I have a hard time imagining that you're going to get a lot of support from the league, knowledgeable fans or the players on that one. So if your only support on that tact is from "new" fans who tune in due to his recent interview, that's a pretty damn small minority and a group that isn't nearly big enough to make the sort of economic change you're implying.

[Fidatelo]

I blame Gary Bettman for everything wrong with the NHL, but would the Jets have moved if Winnipeg supported its team? Just asking....?

Winnipeg supported it's team to the best of it's ability. This isn't a city of 4 million people, nor do most of the people who live here earn large salaries. It's a blue collar town that loves NHL hockey, but got priced out. Add in the fact that Bettman was more than happy to pave the way out of town, and history shows what happens.

You can argue that we are too small to have an NHL team in the current economic client, and I will likely agree. But to say we didn't support the team, and further to say we didn't appreciate Thomas Steen (wtf?) is just wrong.

[JonInMiddleGA]

a) you're saying Avery is good for the sport and will attract the sort of fans the NHL should be trying to attract.

Live & breathing should be about the only criteria at this point.

b) you're comparing teams in a league with a $50+ million salary cap to a league where it's an exception for a player to make a million per year.


Umm ... you lost me somewhere. Which comparison of what to whom are you referring to? (Seriously, I'm jumping around between about three things atm, it's not hard for my train of thought to get derailed this afternoon)

you believe that Avery has done more for the sport than a top 10 scorer in the league. Funny that you should pick Marleau, by far the most vanilla of the 3 tied for that spot (randomly of course) when the other two (Iginla and Kane) are both guys who attract fans for the sport for very good reasons and are the type of players the league should be pushing, not Avery.


I picked Marleau over Iginla simply because I didn't want to use him since Avery already did. Feel free to substitute Kane though, who is equally anonymous as Marleau AFAIC.

The NHL is trying to build a product and image and they apparently don't want something like this to be a part of it.

I agree with you there ... I just think it's an idiotic decision on there part.

The NHL has marketing issues, no doubt, one of them is not that they refuse to promote or encourage Avery. They've got the best players in the world and a product that is as exciting if not more so than other major North American sports.

see my NASCAR/Daytona reference earlier. "Exciting" and "interesting" aren't always the same thing. Taken in a vacuum I can find a situation in an AFL2 game "exciting" but it's almost completely unmemorable & only "interesting" in the vaguest sense.

So if your only support on that tact is from "new" fans who tune in due to his recent interview, that's a pretty damn small minority and a group that isn't nearly big enough to make the sort of economic change you're implying.

You say this as though the NHL is really in a position to be picky. At this point for them there's virtually only two kinds of publicity: good and better.
And any is better than none.

[Travis]

Live & breathing should be about the only criteria at this point.

Umm ... you lost me somewhere. Which comparison of what to whom are you referring to? (Seriously, I'm jumping around between about three things atm, it's not hard for my train of thought to get derailed this afternoon)

I picked Marleau over Iginla simply because I didn't want to use him since Avery already did. Feel free to substitute Kane though, who is equally anonymous as Marleau AFAIC.

I agree with you there ... I just think it's an idiotic decision on there part.

see my NASCAR/Daytona reference earlier. "Exciting" and "interesting" aren't always the same thing. Taken in a vacuum I can find a situation in an AFL2 game "exciting" but it's almost completely unmemorable & only "interesting" in the vaguest sense.

You say this as though the NHL is really in a position to be picky. At this point for them there's virtually only two kinds of publicity: good and better.
And any is better than none.

The comparison I was referencing was to the CFL. Even if the NHL contracts out of the markets that aren't working in the US it's not as if they're leaving the US entirely and going back to a 6-10 team league. If they were to contract 4-6 teams even, player salaries would likely not go down at all, there'd just be loss overall jobs for the fringe players to hang on to. The drop in revenue wouldn't be all that huge as you're leaving the poorer markets and the product on the ice would likely increase in overall quality. The battle the NHL has to pick is whether to try and increase awareness of the sport and get new fans or target existing markets overseas.

As for publicity, in my mind, this was good publicity for the league. Avery acted like an ass, the NHL stepped in and gave him hell for it. I'd much rather that publicity than Avery acting like an ass and getting away with it. I also hope that it means less moments like this in the future, not just from Avery, but from younger players seeing that acting like that is certainly not condusive to a career in the NHL.

And you saying Kane is anonymous would be like me saying that Calvin Johnson is as well. If you pay attention to the sport for more than a few days you're going to hear about them and once you see them play you're really not going to care all that much about whether you ever see them in an interview because it's a hell of a lot more fun to watch them play their respective sports.

As Spector put it in his blog:

Avery isn't like outspoken Jeremy Roenick or former player (and now one of Avery's bosses) Brett Hull, whose colorful comments often were directed at the problems with the NHL product. While those two clearly enjoyed the limelight they were also great players and teammates, whose performances highlighted the NHL at its best.

The same cannot be said for Avery, a decent player who is only out to sell himself, not his team, not his teammates and not the league. As has become very apparent in the aftermath of his remarks toward Cuthbert, his Stars teammates have grown tired of his antics...just as the Kings and Rangers did before them.

This isn't the first time Avery's comments has gotten himself into trouble. The NHL has cut him plenty of slack over the years but he finally took it one step too far and forced the league to act. He has no one to blame but himself.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And you saying Kane is anonymous would be like me saying that Calvin Johnson is as well.

I'd say the more apt comparison would be Kane vs *Greg Jennings/ Lee Evans/ Vincent Jackson or maybe even Andre Johnson. All good enough at what they do, better than the league average, but nothing particularly about them that makes then memorable one versus the other, or even versus Houshmanzadeh.


(again just pulling names from the stat list)

[MikeVic]

I don't see how you lump those WRs together. Andre Johnson is one of the elite in my eyes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't see how you lump those WRs together. Andre Johnson is one of the elite in my eyes.

In fairness, I did say "maybe" on Andre. But I also wouldn't expect him to be one of the first ten WR's that someone named either (in spite of leading the league in both yards and catches this season).