Do you care about Vick coming back?

[PilotMan]

So Vick gets out this week. There is already a great deal of discussion about him. There certainly will be a media circus around this. So what is the result going to be? He will play this year, IMO, but what impact will he have on the league or the team that he goes to?

[DaddyTorgo]

I voted "Seeing him fail" but "Not seeing him" sounds good too. There wasn't an option for "Seeing him savagely mauled by a tiger."

[Kodos]

I'd be happy if there wasn't a team out there that was willing to give him a chance, and he ended up playing for the Birmingham Brown Trout or something.

[molson]

I don't mind him trying to make a living in the only (legal) thing he's probably qualified to do, but I really don't want to see him become the face of some franchise and have the media portray it as some feel-good story.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Since we weren't lucky enough for him to be killed in prison I hope he steps in front of an oncoming bus as soon as possible. And I wish nothing except utter & complete misery, misfortune, and disaster upon whichever franchise sells their souls and signs him.

I went with "not seeing him" because the only time I want to see anything about him is when they publish his obit.

[Samdari]

I think he has been punished commensurate with his crime, and want to see him be allowed to pursue an NFL job.

Beyond that, I don't care if he succeeds or not - although I think his face of the franchise days are long behind him.

[Big Fo]

I'd like to see him at least land a backup job/wildcat QB spot. For not stealing from or hurting any people he's gotten a really harsh punishment.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'd like to see him at least land a backup job/wildcat QB spot. For not stealing from or hurting any people he's gotten a really harsh punishment.

not a dog owner hmm?

[DaddyTorgo]

Since we weren't lucky enough for him to be killed in prison I hope he steps in front of an oncoming bus as soon as possible. And I wish nothing except utter & complete misery, misfortune, and disaster upon whichever franchise sells their souls and signs him.

I went with "not seeing him" because the only time I want to see anything about him is when they publish his obit.

I <3 you!

[molson]

not a dog owner hmm?

I was just reading some of the posts in the original Vick dog fighting thread here and it's incredibly disturbing.

Apparently, people are only against dog fighting because its a "black thing". (goes one theory)

I am kind of glad that Vick ultimately took responsibility and pled guilty (even though that was in his best interest). If he really fought this, or made it a racial issue, he would have had plenty of support, and things would have gotten really ugly.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't think anyone is against it because it's a black thing...I think people are against it because it's cruel and inhumane. Just so happens in this instance him+his associates were black. I have no doubt there's plenty of rednecks who dogfight and i wish them equally as painful a death.

[wade moore]

I don't think anyone is against it because it's a black thing...I think people are against it because it's cruel and inhumane. Just so happens in this instance him+his associates were black. I have no doubt there's plenty of rednecks who dogfight and i wish them equally as painful a death.

Certain "race-card pullers" here at FOFC made the claim (I don't remember if it was directly or indirectly) in the original thread.

[DaddyTorgo]

Certain "race-card pullers" here at FOFC made the claim (I don't remember if it was directly or indirectly) in the original thread.

aaah. well there's a few bad apples in every bunch

[wade moore]

I am kind of glad that Vick ultimately took responsibility and pled guilty (even though that was in his best interest). If he really fought this, or made it a racial issue, he would have had plenty of support, and things would have gotten really ugly.

Part of the reason I voted "don't care to see him", is it appears the only reason he has admitted anything is because it is in his best interest. He has repeatedly lied and attempted to cover-up, even after there were clear facts proving what really happened.

In all of this, he has not appeared to show any genuine remorse. I believe that if he could be 100% guaranteed that he would not be caught, he'd go right back to it.

[flere-imsaho]

I voted "Seeing him fail" but "Not seeing him" sounds good too. There wasn't an option for "Seeing him savagely mauled by a tiger."

What, "flesh-eating trout" aren't good enough for you? :D

Anyway, I'm with Jon, but I'll freely admit my opinion is somewhat colored by being horrified at the level of cruelty he visited upon another living thing, especially a mammal, specifically a dog.

Also, he's clearly not remorseful. Sure, he may have paid his debt to society, but I'll bet good money he still thinks he did nothing wrong. And plenty of people agree with him, which is unfortunate.

[DaddyTorgo]

What, "flesh-eating trout" aren't good enough for you? :D

Anyway, I'm with Jon, but I'll freely admit my opinion is somewhat colored by being horrified at the level of cruelty he visited upon another living thing, especially a mammal, specifically a dog.

Also, he's clearly not remorseful. Sure, he may have paid his debt to society, but I'll bet good money he still thinks he did nothing wrong. And plenty of people agree with him, which is unfortunate.

oh i didn't realize that was "interested in seeing him attacked by flesh-eating trout"

[wade moore]

oh i didn't realize that was "interested in seeing him attacked by flesh-eating trout"+1

[lordscarlet]

WEll, I think there is some validity in the race statement. Not that people dislike it because it's a black-thing, but there are other "sports" that arguably have cruelty toward animals as well that are legal. None of them go to the extents that dog fighting does, but horse racing and rodeo are not exactly pleasant for the animals involved. That's pretty much the argument. That white people do those other "sports" and it is legal. But dog fighting is a "black thing" so it's illegal. Do I buy it? No. While those other sports are not pleasent for the animal, they don't pit the animals against each other in a fight to the death (or near death).

Just thought I'd try to give a reasoned explanation to the race card theory. I assume (without going back to look at the old thread) that this is the argument that someone may have attempted to get to. It typically is used as "it's only eillegal because we're black." When in reality, dog fighting is illegal because it should be and perhaps horse racing, dog racing, rodeo, etc should be re-evaluated as to whether they should be allowed.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I was and still am horrified by what he did. I'm a dog lover and it was pretty savage. He only want to prison for the gambling aspect of it, so he never really "paid" for this cruelty to animal crimes.

That said, I think he should be allowed back into the NFL at some point, assuming some team will have him. I will not be a fan of that team (even if it is the Lions) and will not want that team or Vick to succeed. But, I will leave it at that.

I have to say I am slightly conflicted. I mean, how many dogs did this guy torture and kill over the years and years he ran this operation simply to satisfy some base urge to compete or gamble or whatever it is that drives someone to do something like that. Then I think about how many animals have been tortured and killed to simply satisfy my asethic taste for meat? Did the pigs/cows in those factory farms really have a better life and/or death than Vick's dogs? Sure, I wasn't the one who did the actual torturing and killing, but I, in essence, just had someone do it for me.

Just something I've been thinking about as I re-evaluate things...

It doesn't mean I have any more sympathy for Vick (or others like him) or feel any less disgusted by the whole thing, just need to check my moral outrage for a moment.

[miked]

WEll, I think there is some validity in the race statement. Not that people dislike it because it's a black-thing, but there are other "sports" that arguably have cruelty toward animals as well that are legal. None of them go to the extents that dog fighting does, but horse racing and rodeo are not exactly pleasant for the animals involved. That's pretty much the argument. That white people do those other "sports" and it is legal. But dog fighting is a "black thing" so it's illegal. Do I buy it? No. While those other sports are not pleasent for the animal, they don't pit the animals against each other in a fight to the death (or near death).

Just thought I'd try to give a reasoned explanation to the race card theory. I assume (without going back to look at the old thread) that this is the argument that someone may have attempted to get to. It typically is used as "it's only eillegal because we're black." When in reality, dog fighting is illegal because it should be and perhaps horse racing, dog racing, rodeo, etc should be re-evaluated as to whether they should be allowed.

Plus, at the end of the race, the owners don't go on the horse race track and electrocute, beat, or strangle the losing ones. I know there are some injured ones that get put down on the track, but really there is nothing more vile than pitting 2 animals against each other and letting them fight to the death. As a Falcons fan who was at the game when he gave the crowd the finger, I hope he finds a nice career pouring concrete and spends the rest of whatever he has left fighting more court cases.

Let's not forget also that during his bankruptcy proceedings, he was found to have taken 1.35M in pension money from his "company", as well as spending tens of thousands each month to support his family. And his shady charities that spent 10% on charitable activities and paid friends large sums for running them.

I actually think a fitting job would be to wear one of those padded suits to train police dogs all day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I actually think a fitting job would be to wear one of those padded suits to train police dogs all day.

Better yet, just let somebody use him as a padded suit or the blocker pad for training police dogs all day.

[Samdari]

Plus, at the end of the race, the owners don't go on the horse race track and electrocute, beat, or strangle the losing ones. .

They usually wait a few days/weeks and sell them to glue factories.

his shady charities that spent 10% on charitable activities and paid friends large sums for running them. .

I never knew the united way was a Mike Vick charity?

[miked]

They usually wait a few days/weeks and sell them to glue factories.



I never knew the united way was a Mike Vick charity?

Actually, he did give money to the United Way. But several of his charities were shelved even before the dog fighting. In fact, according to Wiki..

According to its 2006 federal tax return, the Michael Vick Foundation provided 100 backpacks to poor children in Newport News and paid for an after-school program in 2006. But, during the same period the foundation spent only 12 percent of its budget — $20,590 of $171,823 — on charitable programs, and paid its fund-raiser, Susan Bass Roberts, a former spokeswoman for Vick, $97,000.

It lists nothing else other than some money given after the VT shootings, so I guess from 2001-6, he didn't feel the need to do much but collect money for overthrowing WRs.

[wade moore]

I made the mistake of re-reading the first 10-15 pages of the old thread.

Some people on this board make me so angry.

[molson]

Plus, at the end of the race, the owners don't go on the horse race track and electrocute, beat, or strangle the losing ones. I know there are some injured ones that get put down on the track, but really there is nothing more vile than pitting 2 animals against each other and letting them fight to the death. As a Falcons fan who was at the game when he gave the crowd the finger, I hope he finds a nice career pouring concrete and spends the rest of whatever he has left fighting more court cases.



The nice thing about legal activities is that they're subject to regulation. Horce racing, dog racing, etc, are out in the open, are very fairly criticized at times, and are subject to constant debate about what restrictions and safeguards should be in place.

Dogs in dogfighting don't have that kind of protection. They're subject only to the whims of the vile criminals who get off seeing them torn apart.

[Schmidty]

I made the mistake of re-reading the first 10-15 pages of the old thread.

Some people on this board make me so angry.

I don't remember what I said, other than I got into an argument with people. So was I one of the ones that made you angry? :)

[wade moore]

I don't remember what I said, other than I got into an argument with people. So was I one of the ones that made you angry? :)

Nah.

[Noop]

I want to see him succeed.

[PilotMan]

Look, instead of rehashing the past what things can Vick do to prove his worth again? What can he do to rebrand himself in society?

I think that if he plays quiet, does good deeds, speaks out against those who are idots in pro football, and generally follows the mantra that people (no matter their race or culture) take responsibility for their own actions, then he can certainly rebuild and rebrand himself in my eyes and make a much bigger impact on football and society as a whole.

Or he could build houses.

He has a chance here to use his name and abilities to affect change. But will he? And will the press or the angry dog lover let him?

[Big Fo]

And will the press or the angry dog lover let him?

No. Especially not the latter.

[Alan T]

I know he won't be anywhere near my team (The Falcons), and for whatever reason I hold much less animosity towards him now then I did a few seasons ago. I guess success for the Falcons last year helped me get to the point now that I just don't care about Vick anymore.

That said, I understand how horrible everyone views his crimes to have been, but all things considered he pretty much has ruined his life due to his downright stupid and foolish mistakes to the point where he likely has sufficiently paid for his crime. When you consider some of the other scum and sleeze that play in the NFL who have done things just as bad or worse and are still allowed to play, I can't help but think Vick deserves the same opportunity to be able to play again.

I guess my hopes are that Vick is allowed to play again, and he is signed by Oakland. It would possibly be further punishment to Vick to have to play there which will make many of you happy. It also would mean the chances of Vick ever being on my tv to be much less likely which will make me happy. And it means the chance that he would actually enjoy success to be very unlikely too. Pretty much win-win-win (unless you are an oakland fan, but I guess there always has to be collateral damage)

[flere-imsaho]

Oh, my money's definitely on the Raiders being the ones to re-sign him.

[wade moore]

FWIW, if Vick would show true remorse I would be more willing to see him in the NFL and maybe even root for his success. If I felt that he really believed now that what he did was "wrong" (vs. "illegal) and that he was perhaps trying to educate others that it was wrong, my view on this would be very different.

[miked]

The best part about the original thread was this tidbit from Ben:

That might give D.J. the chance to get ready. He'd be one of very few guys that could keep the area interested in the Falcons.

[stevew]

I'm indifferent to the dog abuse. But he should be banned for life for heading an illegal gambling ring. Easily becomes a slippery slope of "make sure you win but try to not cover the spread this Sunday.". Let's not let the PETA people make this all about dogs.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I'm no fan of PETA but for me this was always about the dogs.

[molson]

Look, instead of rehashing the past what things can Vick do to prove his worth again? What can he do to rebrand himself in society?

I think that if he plays quiet, does good deeds, speaks out against those who are idots in pro football, and generally follows the mantra that people (no matter their race or culture) take responsibility for their own actions, then he can certainly rebuild and rebrand himself in my eyes and make a much bigger impact on football and society as a whole.

Or he could build houses.

He has a chance here to use his name and abilities to affect change. But will he? And will the press or the angry dog lover let him?

I'm sure any attempts to "give back" would at least be well publicized. Some people would just assume he's not being genuine, but if he makes large donations to animal charities, I could care less how sincere he is, he would be giving back.

[Noop]

So is playing poker with your friends illegal if it is for money?

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'm indifferent to the dog abuse. But he should be banned for life for heading an illegal gambling ring. Easily becomes a slippery slope of "make sure you win but try to not cover the spread this Sunday.". Let's not let the PETA people make this all about dogs.

I'm no fan of PETA either, but I could care less about the gambling ring. Gambling is pretty low on my list of wrongs. Unless you have a "gambling problem" (which I do believe exists), it's pretty much a victimless crime.

It's pretty much all about the dogs for me.

[Noop]

Why not horses? Or Greyhounds?

[molson]

Why not horses? Or Greyhounds?

It varies by state. Unless the gambling is done online. Then it's a federal issue.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Wow. Noop you are...

rehashing an old thread.

[miked]

So is playing poker with your friends illegal if it is for money?

I guess the "true" comparison would be that you are bankrolling some of your friends to play against other friends, and every time somebody loses a hand, they get stabbed. After said friend loses enough of your money and is sufficiently stabbed, you then step in and hook him up to a car battery, or strangle him with an electric cord because he's costing you too much.

But hey, he was only torturing animals for money and personal pleasure. I guess it was more fun for him than torturing 50k fans per week.

[Young Drachma]

Meh. People made way too much of this and him. But then, he really did think he was invincible up until they made a fool of his ass. But that whole house of cards he'd built up was bound to fall anyway and so, in some ways, this probably saved his life...because surely the way it as going for him wasn't going to be anything closely resembling success in life.

I hope he finds a way to be a productive member of society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The best part about the original thread was this tidbit from Ben ...

Don't laugh too much, consider this:

Avg home attendance in 2006 w/ Vick & 7-9 record = 70,432 (10th in NFL)
Avg home attendance in 2008 w/ Ryan & 11-5 record = 64,065 (23rd in NFL)

And while I'll grant you this can move based on opponents but
Avg away attendance in 2006 w/ Vick = 70,388 or 99.9% capacity
Avg away attendance in 2008 w/ Ryan = 65,617 or 94.9% capacity

edit to add: And before anyone figures home attendance started slow with low expectations and then built up as the season unfolded, 64,617 were at the Dome to see the Falcons clinch the 5th seed in the season finale. In 2006, 68,834 was the official attendance for Vick to get his 1,000 yard rushing season in a 10-3 loss to Carolina in Week 16.

People in Atlanta generally want Ryan to do well & the team to win & are very happy with his performance & will watch on TV or catch the highlights on the 11pm news sports recap. But people willing to buy tickets for the Falcons wanted to see Vick do his thing even more. Ryan could win three straight Super Bowls & lead a perfect season and still never get to the popularity level with the general public that Vick had.

[DanGarion]

I'm indifferent to the dog abuse. But he should be banned for life for heading an illegal gambling ring. Easily becomes a slippery slope of "make sure you win but try to not cover the spread this Sunday.". Let's not let the PETA people make this all about dogs.
Abusing any form of life purposely like they did is all about the dogs. Sports come second fiddle to life.

[Radii]

If Goodell wants to make an example of Vick and not re-instate him, I'm perfectly fine with that. It became pretty clear when this all went down that Vick isn't the only one in the league involved with dogfighting and taking a tough stand on it wouldn't be a bad thing.

He has served his time though, so if the NFL sees fit to let him back in the league then I'm not going to stop following the sport or anything. But there's no way in hell I'll ever be able to root for him. Hell I'm not sure right now I could even watch him play without feeling disgusted.

[stevew]

I'm no fan of PETA either, but I could care less about the gambling ring. Gambling is pretty low on my list of wrongs. Unless you have a "gambling problem" (which I do believe exists), it's pretty much a victimless crime.

It's pretty much all about the dogs for me.

Regardless we are on the same side that he's a vile piece of shit

If Roger has any sense a lifetime ban is the only solution to this guy.

He can Fuck himself and work construction for the rest of his life.

[Noop]

Wow. Noop you are...

rehashing an old thread.

I was just wondering why one is considered more evil then the other.

[Karlifornia]

I voted "root for him to succeed", but the truth of the matter is that I don't really care, but I'm certainly not rooting for failure or death or whatever.

The man served his time. If he's good enough to get on a team, he should be given the opportunity.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Wow. Noop you are...

rehashing an old thread.
No, this thread is rehashing an old thread. Now, I have no problem with that in the least, but it seems pretty logical that - no matter how the original post is phrased - any talk about Michael Vick's crimes and his eventual return will lead to the same discussion as the last thread. After all, isn't that what was being discussed back then, too? His crimes and his eventual return?

[molson]

I was just wondering why one is considered more evil then the other.

Why dog fighting is worse than hunting, horse racing, or dog racing? I think we tried to explain that to you last time, I think it's fair to say that you just disagree on this, and that's fair.

But what's your point? Our democratic society has decided that some things should be legal and some things illegal. Those decisions were made before Michael Vick started committing crimes. You're not required to agree with the laws. You are required to follow them.

Obviously you're dancing around the racial implications again. If you think that dog fighting is illegal only because it's a "black thing", I would say you're dead wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion. (I would also disagree that dog racing is a "black thing", and I have no idea why some are actually trying to enforce that sterotype to make their point).

I think though, that you might have a little more peace over this situation, if you tried, just for a second, to have an open mind. Consider the possibility, no matter how ridiculous it may seem to you, that many people find dogfighting disgusting regardless of the races involved. You can't seem to see this possibility. This is why people think you're a racist.

[Noop]

Why dog fighting is worse than hunting, horse racing, or dog racing? I think we tried to explain that to you last time, I think it's fair to say that you just disagree on this, and that's fair.

But what's your point? Our democratic society has decided that some things should be legal and some things illegal. Those decisions were made before Michael Vick started committing crimes. You're not required to agree with the laws. You are required to follow them.

Obviously you're dancing around the racial implications again. If you think that dog fighting is illegal only because it's a "black thing", I would say you're dead wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion. (I would also disagree that dog racing is a "black thing", and I have no idea why some are actually trying to enforce that sterotype to make their point).

I think though, that you might have a little more peace over this situation, if you tried, just for a second, to have an open mind. Consider the possibility, no matter how ridiculous it may seem to you, that many people find dogfighting disgusting regardless of the races involved. You can't seem to see this possibility. This is why people think you're a racist.

I wasn't even talking about race. I was talking about why is it okay for people to profit off horses and greyhounds. Do not project on to me your own guilty thoughts because if I want to call something racist I will say so point blank.

[Kodos]

If it had been Bill Romanowski involved in this, my feelings would be the same. The man should never be allowed back on the field.

[molson]

I wasn't even talking about race. I was talking about why is it okay for people to profit off horses and greyhounds. Do not project on to me your own guilty thoughts because if I want to call something racist I will say so point blank.

So you're asking why it's OK to profit off of a legal activity and not an illegal one?

OK, there's a pretty easy answer to that (So easy, that I wonder if you're actually being sincere). Profitting off of an illegal activity promotes and encourages the illegality, and thus is against public policy. Plus, any money "earned" from an illegal activity tends not to be reported on tax filings.

I guess you've changed your mind on all the race stuff, which I admit was fresh in my mind having recently read that thread.

[DanGarion]

Obviously you're dancing around the racial implications again. If you think that dog fighting is illegal only because it's a "black thing", I would say you're dead wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion. (I would also disagree that dog racing is a "black thing", and I have no idea why some are actually trying to enforce that sterotype to make their point).


Personally I never looked at dog fighting as a black thing, here in SoCal those that are caught usually are Caucasian or Hispanic from my memory.

[Noop]

So you're asking why it's OK to profit off of a legal activity and not an illegal one?

OK, there's a pretty easy answer to that. Profitting off of an illegal activity promotes the illegality, and thus is against public policy.

I guess you've changed your mind on all the race stuff, which I admit was fresh in my mind having recently read that thread.

Okay so it's legal so why doesn't PETA make a big stink about it during those events? It has nothing to do with race and more to do with why are they so selective in who they chose to spew their venom. The same is true for dog lovers why are they not up in arms about greyhound racing.

[Kodos]

Noop is one of those guys that is just pointless to argue with. He thinks everyone is racist because he is.

[DanGarion]

Okay so it's legal so why doesn't PETA make a big stink about it during those events? It has nothing to do with race and more to do with why are they so selective in who they chose to spew their venom. The same is true for dog lovers why are they not up in arms about greyhound racing.

Have you ever gone to said events?

[molson]

Okay so it's legal so why doesn't PETA make a big stink about it during those events? It has nothing to do with race and more to do with why are they so selective in who they chose to spew their venom. The same is true for dog lovers why are they not up in arms about greyhound racing.

PETA makes a huge stink about horse and dog racing, and everything associated with those industries. And dog lovers are definitely against the mistreatment of racing dogs. Yes, they're probably even more upset about dog-fighting, because that's even worse (which you don't agree with, but trust me, almost everyone else does).

And this whole story is higher profile because it's a celebrity. If Tom Brady beat and tortured a racing dog that he owned, he'd get some "venom", I assure you. If he financial supported such behavior on a huge scale, he'd be doing prison time.

[Noop]

Noop is one of those guys that is just pointless to argue with. He thinks everyone is racist because he is.

Who is bringing up race? I am asking a question stop projecting your thoughts on me.

[Kodos]

Why didn't you jump to the defense of Geoffrey Dahmer? He was just eatin' folks.

[Noop]

PETA makes a huge stink about horse and dog racing, and everything associated with those industries. And dog lovers are definitely against the mistreatment of racing dogs. Yes, they're probably even more upset about dog-fighting, because that's even worse (which you don't agree with, but trust me, almost everyone else does).

And this whole story is higher profile because it's a celebrity. If Tom Brady beat and tortured a racing dog that he owned, he'd get some "venom", I assure you. If he financial supported such behavior on a huge scale, he'd be doing prison time.

You know what you answered my confusion with this because I was confused as to why Vick caught the hate he did. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with his celebrity status. I don't usually associate athletes as celebrities so that is where I was missing it.

[Kodos]

FWIW, I think dog-racing should be banned too. And with horse-racing, I just don't understand why anyone would follow it. They stand around showing sentiment-filled imagery for an hour, and then the race is done in a couple of minutes. Where is the entertainment?

[lordscarlet]

So is playing poker with your friends illegal if it is for money?

My understanding is that if the "house" doesn't take money, it is legal. Someone is free to correct me.

As for the topic at hand: I certainly don't want to see him doomed to failure like some others. I'm really rather indifferent. I root for guys that are known to have done "good things" in their life and with their celebrity,b ut I don't root against guys who have gotten mixed up into trouble. Do I want someone with a questionable past in the locker room of my favorite team? Not really. Do I want him barred for life from the NFL? No. I think he should at least be suspended for the length of time that people with other legal violations are suspended for (drugs, starting riots in strip clubs, etc). I think a 1/2-1 yr suspension at a minimum, then put him on a short leash if any team will take him.

FWIW - I think any convictions outside of non-reckless traffic violations (there are probably a few other exceptions) should result in suspension. Domestic abuse, drugs, DUI, etc, etc.

[lordscarlet]

You know what you answered my confusion with this because I was confused as to why Vick caught the hate he did. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with his celebrity status. I don't usually associate athletes as celebrities so that is where I was missing it.

Where have you been for the last, oh, four decades? Of course athletes are celebrities.

[Noop]

Where have you been for the last, oh, four decades? Of course athletes are celebrities.

I don't think of LeBron the same way I think of Paris Hilton.

[larrymcg421]

I think Vick is a savage piece of subhuman waste that doesn't deserve to work at a gas station much less play in the NFL.

It's not about race. It's not about celebrity. He beat and murdered dogs. This is not someone who got mixed up in something bad. He consciously took part in illegal activity where animals were maimed for sport, and consciously took part in executing dogs that weren't good fighters.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't think of LeBron the same way I think of Paris Hilton.

I don't think of Chiuauas the same way I think of German Sheppards, but they are both dogs.

I don't think of "Daddy Day Care" the same way I think of "The Godfather II", but they are both feature length films.

[Fidatelo]

I don't think of LeBron the same way I think of Paris Hilton.

Racist.

[Noop]

I don't think of Chiuauas the same way I think of German Sheppards, but they are both dogs.

I don't think of "Daddy Day Care" the same way I think of "The Godfather II", but they are both feature length films.

Okay. LeBron is an NBA player and so is Mouhamed Sene, so is the latter a celebrity as well?

[DanGarion]

celebrity
One entry found.

Main Entry:
ce·leb·ri·ty Listen to the pronunciation of celebrity
Pronunciation:
\sə-ˈle-brə-tē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural ce·leb·ri·ties
Date:
14th century

1 : the state of being celebrated : fame 2 : a famous or celebrated person

[lordscarlet]

I don't think of LeBron the same way I think of Paris Hilton.

Okay. LeBron is an NBA player and so is Mouhamed Sene, so is the latter a celebrity as well?

OK, I don't know if you're doing this on purpose or if you're really this dense. Just because you don't think of them that way, that doesn't mean it's not true. Anyone with reasonable intelligence knows that the top players in basketball and football, and to a lesser degree baseball and hockey, are celebrities. You may not look at them that way, but around the nation as a whole they are clearly celebrities. Michael Vick certainly meat that criteria, as does Lebron James. Clearly Mouhamed Sene does not, and hopefully you're just being an ass by making that point and it isn't that you truly don't get it. (this coming from a guy that is often an ass by bringing up points he doesn't agree with on this board, just to prove the point)

[flere-imsaho]

AWESOME

:popcorn:

[johnnyshaka]

Mouhamed Sene, so is the latter a celebrity as well?

I'm sure he is in Senegal.

[DanGarion]

From Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity).

A celebrity (or simply as celeb) is a widely-recognized or notable person who commands a high degree of public and media attention. The word stems from the Latin verb "celebrare" but one may not become a celebrity unless public and mass media interest is piqued.

There are degrees of celebrity status which vary based on an individual's region or field of notoriety. While someone might be a celebrity to some people, to others he may be completely unknown.

A global celebrity on the other hand is someone who is known by most people or is a mainstream celebrity. Such a celebrity is also known as either a household name or superstar. For example, Virgin Director Richard Branson was notable as a CEO, but he did not become a global celebrity until he attempted to circumnavigate the globe in a hot air balloon and generate publicity for himself. Another high profile categorisation of celebrity status is the A-list, based on the marketability of celebrities.

Generally speaking, a celebrity is someone who seeks media attention and most frequently has an extroverted personality. The desire to be notable is implied by some to be a part of Western culture and more specifically the American Dream as a measure of success. A celebrity that shys away from the public eye or keeps a very separate private life is called a reluctant celebrity. A notable example is Kurt Cobain. At the other end of the spectrum, a celebrity that seeks out publicity for him- or herself is often called a media tart, whereas one that uses his or her private life as a vehicle for enhanced celebrity status, sometimes desperately, is referred to as a media whore. Examples of this are fake or planned relationships, reality television appearances, celebrity nudity and in extreme cases, scandal or celebrity sex tapes.

There are a wide range of ways people can become celebrities, from their profession, appearances in the mass media, beauty or even by complete accident or infamy. Instant celebrity is the term that is used when someone becomes a celebrity in very short period of time.

In some places, someone that somehow achieves a small amount of transient fame through hype or mass media, is stereotyped as a B-grade celebrity. Often the stereotype extends to someone that falls short of mainstream or persistent fame but seeks to extend or exploit it.

In the 20th Century, the insatiable public fascination for celebrities and appetite for celebrity gossip has seen the rise of the gossip columnist, tabloid, paparazzi and celebrity blogging.

[molson]

Okay. LeBron is an NBA player and so is Mouhamed Sene, so is the latter a celebrity as well?

All athletes are not celebrities, nor are all celebrities famous.

[Noop]

OK, I don't know if you're doing this on purpose or if you're really this dense. Just because you don't think of them that way, that doesn't mean it's not true. Anyone with reasonable intelligence knows that the top players in basketball and football, and to a lesser degree baseball and hockey, are celebrities. You may not look at them that way, but around the nation as a whole they are clearly celebrities. Michael Vick certainly meat that criteria, as does Lebron James. Clearly Mouhamed Sene does not, and hopefully you're just being an ass by making that point and it isn't that you truly don't get it. (this coming from a guy that is often an ass by bringing up points he doesn't agree with on this board, just to prove the point)

I was making that point to Go Blue.

[Noop]

All athletes are not celebrities, nor are all celebrities famous.

Look at what Go Blue posted that is what I was replying too.

[Noop]

I meant Blue not Go Blue

[Kodos]

You have something against the Blue Man Group? Racist.

[Ben E Lou]

The best part about the original thread was this tidbit from Ben:The Falcons went 11-5 and were near the bottom of the league in attendance. ;)

[Noop]

You have something against the Blue Man Group? Racist.

You continue to project.

[gstelmack]

I will say that as long as Leonard Little remains in the league Goodell is going to have a hard time keeping Vick away...

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and of course my opinion is that I couldn't possibly care less what an athlete does off the field. He is on that field to entertain me, pure and simple. If he can still do those crazy darts and dodges, he will entertain me. If not, he'll be boring to watch and I'll have no interest in watching him.

[Honolulu_Blue]

All athletes are not celebrities, nor are all celebrities famous.

I meant Blue not Go Blue

What he said. Seriously, if you don't understand thess simple points you're either stupid or just trying to be obtuse for some reason or another. I'm pretty sure it's the latter, which is much more frustrating and annoying than the former.

[lordscarlet]

Oh, and of course my opinion is that I couldn't possibly care less what an athlete does off the field. He is on that field to entertain me, pure and simple. If he can still do those crazy darts and dodges, he will entertain me. If not, he'll be boring to watch and I'll have no interest in watching him.

Agreed. But the rules are: you get in trouble outside of football, you get suspended. They've already set that precedent, so Vick should just be susceptible to comparable players. Granted, I don't know any that have received multiple year prison sentences in today's league, but I might just not be a big enough sports nut. But the Packman suspension seems like a fair comparision -- Packman wasn't even convicted.

[wade moore]

Agreed. But the rules are: you get in trouble outside of football, you get suspended. They've already set that precedent, so Vick should just be susceptible to comparable players. Granted, I don't know any that have received multiple year prison sentences in today's league, but I might just not be a big enough sports nut. But the Packman suspension seems like a fair comparision -- Packman wasn't even convicted.

Well, technically Vick has been suspended for two years.

Edit: and Packman for 1 year.

I don't agree with Ben on this, but he's at least consistent and it's difficult to argue with his stance outside of, "I don't see it that way".

[Kodos]

To support the Blue Man Group, I blue myself.

[gstelmack]

When did Packman intercept a K?

[DanGarion]

Oh, and of course my opinion is that I couldn't possibly care less what an athlete does off the field. He is on that field to entertain me, pure and simple. If he can still do those crazy darts and dodges, he will entertain me. If not, he'll be boring to watch and I'll have no interest in watching him.

If said athlete raped my wife or any other persons wife then I couldn't watch him. Regardless if he's paid his dues. Just like if he's been convicted of violently treating and killing dogs.

[Ben E Lou]

Agreed. But the rules are: you get in trouble outside of football, you get suspended. They've already set that precedent, so Vick should just be susceptible to comparable players. Granted, I don't know any that have received multiple year prison sentences in today's league, but I might just not be a big enough sports nut. But the Packman suspension seems like a fair comparision -- Packman wasn't even convicted.Pffft. Like I care about the NFL's rules. As far as I'm concerned the NFL needs only one rule: "Does Ben find this action/player/strategy entertaining?" If yes, then do it. If no, then don't. :D

[lordscarlet]

Well, technically Vick has been suspended for two years.

Edit: and Packman for 1 year.

I don't agree with Ben on this, but he's at least consistent and it's difficult to argue with his stance outside of, "I don't see it that way".

Well, there you go. Although I don't know that I feel the jailtime should count -- I never really "Got" serving tome concurrently. But I think the NFL needs to be consistent, whether we like it or not. AS someone said, he technically was convicted of any cruelty charges. Granted, Goodell has shown himself willing to not bother himself with actual convictions. I think the best thing for the NFL to do is let him play rather than having some contracted fight, and have Vick fall on his face and fail. That's best for the NFL, IMO. My guess is that they really don't want to let him play and to let him fade away without preventing him the opportunity would be the best route. Dunno. It depends on how much Vick is willing to fight for the opportunity to play in the NFL if it is denied to him.

[lordscarlet]

Pffft. Like I care about the NFL's rules. As far as I'm concerned the NFL needs only one rule: "Does Ben find this action/player/strategy entertaining?" If yes, then do it. If no, then don't. :D

I think that one rule opens a door for a lot of really sweet changes to the NFL. :D

[wade moore]

I think Vick is VERY motivated to fight for a chance to play.

You seen his checking account lately?

[wade moore]

Pffft. Like I care about the NFL's rules. As far as I'm concerned the NFL needs only one rule: "Does Ben find this action/player/strategy entertaining?" If yes, then do it. If no, then don't. :D
CHEETER!

[flere-imsaho]

Ben (and others) may certainly feel that way, but it's likely that the majority of the NFL's potential audience think Vick (off the field) is a jerk. If so, it's also likely that Vick's reinstatement will have a measurable deleterious effect on the NFL's image and, more crucially, its revenue generation.

While we might speculate that Goodell's decision will be based on some sort of ethical or moral standard, it's probably at least as likely that it will be based on the likely negative effect on the league if Vick is reinstated. Thus the issue of how Vick is perceived "off the field" definitely does matter.

[molson]

While we might speculate that Goodell's decision will be based on some sort of ethical or moral standard, it's probably at least as likely that it will be based on the likely negative effect on the league if Vick is reinstated. Thus the issue of how Vick is perceived "off the field" definitely does matter.

Yes, and we saw how Goodell dealt with pacman - I'm guessing the resolution here will be similar. Vick will be allowed to play, but he'll be subject to additional rules, restrictions and scrutiny that other players aren't. There will be zero tolerance in terms of getting in any trouble (regardless of whether the trouble is dog related), and he'll probably have to be involved in charitable work/donations. The restrictions alone will probably scare teams away from making him a QB. Maybe he gets a shot as a "slash" type player.

I'm sure Lenoard Little would face a simlar deal, if his crimes happened today (Goodell can't go back and punish Little for stuff that happened a decade ago).

[wade moore]

Ben (and others) may certainly feel that way, but it's likely that the majority of the NFL's potential audience think Vick (off the field) is a jerk. If so, it's also likely that Vick's reinstatement will have a measurable deleterious effect on the NFL's image and, more crucially, its revenue generation.

I've made my position known on this issue - but..

Do we really think this to be true? Do you think TVs around the nation will turn off if Michael Vick gets reinstated? Do you think NFL Shop will close down? Do you think that outside of maybe a short term (and I think VERY short term) loss to the team that signs him that there will be any real financial impact?

[Sun Tzu]

I'll take the "no, I don't care of he comes back" option.

Meaning...I actually could care less.

[flere-imsaho]

Do we really think this to be true? Do you think TVs around the nation will turn off if Michael Vick gets reinstated? Do you think NFL Shop will close down? Do you think that outside of maybe a short term (and I think VERY short term) loss to the team that signs him that there will be any real financial impact?

All I'm saying is that I would expect the NFL, like any business, will attempt to measure the likely impact of a Vick reinstatement on its revenue. What percent, if any, TV ratings will go down? What percent, if any, merchandising will go down? What percent, if any, sponsorship rates/deals will go down?

All three of these will be affected by how people view Vick off the field. There will be people who view him negatively enough to turn off their sets and/or not buy merchandise. There will be sponsors who spend less to advertise with the NFL.

The question is: how many? I don't know. I'm just saying the NFL is more than likely to be using that type of calculation as much as they will some sort of moral or ethical judgment.

We can see it already, in, for instance, our assumption that some franchises wouldn't touch Vick with a 20-foot pole because they know the negative effects they'd suffer from their fanbases.

[flere-imsaho]

dola,

My guess is that the PR and financial impact to the NFL is very minimal and short-term, and the PR and financial impact to the team that signs him is slightly longer-lived, but not hugely deleterious. That's just the way it is.

[wade moore]

All I'm saying is that I would expect the NFL, like any business, will attempt to measure the likely impact of a Vick reinstatement on its revenue. What percent, if any, TV ratings will go down? What percent, if any, merchandising will go down? What percent, if any, sponsorship rates/deals will go down?

All three of these will be affected by how people view Vick off the field. There will be people who view him negatively enough to turn off their sets and/or not buy merchandise. There will be sponsors who spend less to advertise with the NFL.

The question is: how many? I don't know. I'm just saying the NFL is more than likely to be using that type of calculation as much as they will some sort of moral or ethical judgment.

We can see it already, in, for instance, our assumption that some franchises wouldn't touch Vick with a 20-foot pole because they know the negative effects they'd suffer from their fanbases.

I agree that this will be part of the NFL's assessment of the situation, I'm just not sure that I agree that it really would have more than a negligible impact on the NFL's bottom line. An individual team? Yeah, probably. The NFL, I doubt it.

[wade moore]

dola,

My guess is that the PR and financial impact to the NFL is very minimal and short-term, and the PR and financial impact to the team that signs him is slightly longer-lived, but not hugely deleterious. That's just the way it is.

Heh, missed this. This is all I was trying to say.

[spleen1015]

I'm with Clinton Portis. Whatever he thinks.

[molson]

We can see it already, in, for instance, our assumption that some franchises wouldn't touch Vick with a 20-foot pole because they know the negative effects they'd suffer from their fanbases.

There's really a ton of reasons not to sign him. There's no telling what he'd give you on the field at this point. And he's a guy with a signficant history of criminal activity and general bad behavior who will be on thin ice with both the NFL and his probation officers. He's a bad guy, with more scrutiny - what's the odds he can even get through a whole season without missing more time for more legal trouble/suspensions.

So that would seemingly rule out actually dedicating any kind of signficant cap space or playing time to him (like by planning for him to be your starting QB). So maybe he's worth it as a low-risk, low-salary guy who isn't a huge part of your plan. But then a team would have to consider - why is this low-salary, low-impact guy worth the media circus that's going to surround him?

[Bad-example]

I will say that as long as Leonard Little remains in the league Goodell is going to have a hard time keeping Vick away...

Indeed. If fans in St Louis can root for a douche like Little, maybe there will be a place for Vick somewhere.

[miked]

Pffft. Like I care about the NFL's rules. As far as I'm concerned the NFL needs only one rule: "Does Ben find this action/player/strategy entertaining?" If yes, then do it. If no, then don't. :D

Step 1: Make Ben commissioner.
Step 2: Increase the play to 2-3 games per week.
Step 3: No team may draft a QB on day 1.
Step 4: All free agents must be signed in 2 days.
Step 5: Awesomeness.

[molson]

Indeed. If fans in St Louis can root for a douche like Little, maybe there will be a place for Vick somewhere.

That was a different administration. If Little committed his crime today, he'd be looking at a different situation with the NFL (I think).

[flere-imsaho]

what's the odds he can even get through a whole season without missing more time for more legal trouble/suspensions.

I agree with most of the rest of what you wrote, but for this I'd say the changes are pretty good he gets through a season with no legal trouble.

I'm assuming he's not completely stupid, so:

1. He'll know he'll be under tremendous scrutiny, so would be less likely to do illegal things.

2. Aside from the dog fighting and the marijuana incident, he doesn't have anywhere near the track record of some other people in the NFL currently.

I absolutely agree that whatever team signs him will be to a low/no guaranteed money contract so it's low-risk, high-reward.

[JediKooter]

Were his state charges ever resolved? Last I heard, after he was put in the big house on the federal charges, the state of Virginia was still going to prosecute him.

[gstelmack]

1. He'll know he'll be under tremendous scrutiny, so would be less likely to do illegal things.

I'd say the whole water bottle at the post-9/11 airport incident shows this is unlikely...

[molson]

I agree with most of the rest of what you wrote, but for this I'd say the changes are pretty good he gets through a season with no legal trouble.

I'm assuming he's not completely stupid, so:

1. He'll know he'll be under tremendous scrutiny, so would be less likely to do illegal things.

2. Aside from the dog fighting and the marijuana incident, he doesn't have anywhere near the track record of some other people in the NFL currently.

I absolutely agree that whatever team signs him will be to a low/no guaranteed money contract so it's low-risk, high-reward.

He did fail a drug test while he was out on bail, when he knew he would be tested.

[flere-imsaho]

Well, I did say I'm assuming he's not completely stupid.

[molson]

Well, I did say I'm assuming he's not completely stupid.

I'm not sure if it's stupidity, more like a sickness. Some criminals just can't help but commit crimes. In a way, they can't help it, it's how they were raised, the culture they're from, etc. I'm not saying that criminals aren't responsibile for their actions, but it is very difficult to change. Maybe he's changed. Maybe he can do some good. I tend to doubt it though.

Can he go a whole season without using marijuana? I can almost hear the supporters (marijuana isn't worse than other stuff, there's no victim!). Problem is, that's the same logic Vick will use. A criminal becomes an expert in justifying his criminal behavior. That might involve minimizing, emphasizing moral issues, or as we've seen a lot in this case, deflecting with accusations of racism.

[Samdari]

All I'm saying is that I would expect the NFL, like any business, will attempt to measure the likely impact of a Vick reinstatement on its revenue. What percent, if any, TV ratings will go down? What percent, if any, merchandising will go down? What percent, if any, sponsorship rates/deals will go down?

All three of these will be affected by how people view Vick off the field. There will be people who view him negatively enough to turn off their sets and/or not buy merchandise. There will be sponsors who spend less to advertise with the NFL.

The question is: how many? I don't know. I'm just saying the NFL is more than likely to be using that type of calculation as much as they will some sort of moral or ethical judgment.

We can see it already, in, for instance, our assumption that some franchises wouldn't touch Vick with a 20-foot pole because they know the negative effects they'd suffer from their fanbases.

You know, this has convinced me its a no-brainer from a business standpoint that they will reinstate him and someone will sign him.

Whatever your opinion of his football skills, it would be hard to argue that he was not the most popular player in the league (or most watched/interesting/notable, if you prefer those teams). I would argue that most people who are likely to watch the NFL are not in PETA, and will not stop watching the NFL if Vick is in it. I bet they'd gain more fans/viewers than they'd lose - and by a HUGE margin.

There is already talk of blackouts in Jacksonville. They have a terrible situation at backup QB. One could argue (and I would) that they have the least talented starting QB in the league. There are a lot of reasons it makes sense for them to sign him.

[ColtCrazy]

There really needs to be some sort of way that you lose your right to be a mega-millionaire in the nation's most popular sport when you break the law as severely as he did. I voted not seeing him, but consider Leonard Little can kill someone and still play (unreal) then we'll see Vick again as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I bet they'd gain more fans/viewers than they'd lose - and by a HUGE margin.

Now there I'd disagree, because I don't recall any viewer erosion surrounding his absence.

It's why I made the distinction about ticket sales being lower with Ryan than with Vick ... people who go to games and people who watch games on TV aren't necessarily the same people.

Take me, I'll turn the TV on at some point most Sundays but I'd sooner have dental work done than go to the Georgia Dome. It's a mediocre building with the worst staff I've ever seen at a venue, even worse parking, and it's easier to watch a game on the big screen than on the field. But I'll casually watch on TV, just like 8% to 15% of the rest of Atlanta. We'll watch because it's on and as long as it's an NFC matchup then those folks are going to be clicking through on TV (AFC games generally get noticeably lower ratings in Atlanta and in a number of other markets).

If you lose one major sponsor in the stadium and a minor sponsor on the local radio and because of Vick, you've eaten up the difference in ticket sales pretty quick.

[Honolulu_Blue]

If you lose one major sponsor in the stadium and a minor sponsor on the local radio and because of Vick, you've eaten up the difference in ticket sales pretty quick.

That would have to be any team's biggest concern really, more so than losing/gaining fans. It would be interesting to see how many sponsors, if any, would walk away from a team because they signed Vick.

[Raiders Army]

I think he'll land in Minnesota instead of Favre.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That would have to be any team's biggest concern really, more so than losing/gaining fans. It would be interesting to see how many sponsors, if any, would walk away from a team because they signed Vick.

Any that have middle income women as a significant target almost certainly.

Generally I'd figure the most conerned would be publicly held sponsors that are sensitive to their image with shareholders, especially those who may already have one or more groups after them for some reason or another already; i.e. somebody who maybe already has a questionable relationship with a different situation might be more reluctant to deal with another shit storm.

And on a micro level I'd think any pet related product would have to pull out or face a serious hit to their sales, and any conglomerate that has a major pet product in their overall portfolio would have to think about it long & hard.

[Fidatelo]

If I owned a team I'd try to sign him with a well-hidden, vaguely-worded stipulation that would essentially allow me to either
a) enter him into a dog fight as one of the dogs; or
b) allow me to drop him off on a deserted island with no supplies and not have to pick him up for 45 days.

Then if he survives whichever event I chose he can be allowed to try out at wide receiver.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Then if he survives whichever event I chose he can be allowed to try out at wide receiver.

Better yet, gunner & occasional punt returner.

[Fidatelo]

Better yet, gunner & occasional punt returner.

Punt returner, perhaps, but I'm assuming the stipulations of his parole will preclude him from taking on the role of gunner.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm not sure if it's stupidity, more like a sickness. Some criminals just can't help but commit crimes. In a way, they can't help it, it's how they were raised, the culture they're from, etc. I'm not saying that criminals aren't responsibile for their actions, but it is very difficult to change.

srsly?

[molson]

srsly?

For realzies

[JonInMiddleGA]

Punt returner, perhaps, but I'm assuming the stipulations of his parole will preclude him from taking on the role of gunner.

He can have the role, he just has to perform it unarmed. Part of the beauty of the plan really :D

[Swaggs]

Most people know that I am not the biggest VPI or Vick fan (and the dogfighting stuff makes me sick), but I think he seems to be the rare athlete/celebrity that has "manned up" and he appears remorseful.

I wouldn't want him on my team (because I don't think he is anywhere useful enough to offset the negative publicity), but, in a way, I really appreciate the contrast between him and all the steroid users who cannot seem to admit wrong.

[Eaglesfan27]

I don't think he will be allowed to play this year and I hope he isn't allowed to play. I hope whenever he is cleared that whatever team is stupid enough to sign him sees a huge drop in revenue.

[DeToxRox]

Haven't read this whole thread so if someone else said this I apologize but it's this simple:

Leonard Little killed a person, then years little got busted driving drunk, and he's still in the NFL.

If he can be in the league, Vick can be in the league, and I could give two shits about it.

[fantom1979]

Haven't read this whole thread so if someone else said this I apologize but it's this simple:

Leonard Little killed a person, then years little got busted driving drunk, and he's still in the NFL.

If he can be in the league, Vick can be in the league, and I could give two shits about it.

The new commish has not been as forgiving as the last commish. I think that is the real difference in situations.

[larrymcg421]

Haven't read this whole thread so if someone else said this I apologize but it's this simple:

Leonard Little killed a person, then years little got busted driving drunk, and he's still in the NFL.

If he can be in the league, Vick can be in the league, and I could give two shits about it.

So the process can never change. Because Little is still in the league, no one that does as bad as Little can ever get a worse punishment than he did. I think that's silly and makes it impossible for a league to ever adopt a strict policy, because they'll always be unfair compared to someone who was punished in the past.

[DeToxRox]

So the process can never change. Because Little is still in the league, no one that does as bad as Little can ever get a worse punishment than he did. I think that's silly and makes it impossible for a league to ever adopt a strict policy, because they'll always be unfair compared to someone who was punished in the past.

He let Pacman back in the league. Pacman is a 10 + time convicted shithead who helped get a guy paralyzed. He used all 9 lives and still got one more from Goodell. Why shouldn't Vick?

[flere-imsaho]

There is already talk of blackouts in Jacksonville. They have a terrible situation at backup QB. One could argue (and I would) that they have the least talented starting QB in the league. There are a lot of reasons it makes sense for them to sign him.

How did David Garrard fall from grace so quickly?

I think he'll land in Minnesota instead of Favre.

Not Minnesota. I think that's one of the locations where you'd see some pretty constant protesting of such a move.

Come to think of it, though, that would hinder Oakland, given there would be plenty of people from SF who would come across the bridge to protest.

[SFL Cat]

Vick is the quarterback version of Pacman Jones.

[Thomkal]

Reports are that Vick is going to be working with the Humane Society of America upon his release. The head of that organization met with Vick in prison recently, and apprantly believes he's remorseful.

I'd actually like to see him on an episode of Dog Town, a great show on National Geographic channel. They took several of his dogs and did a special episode on them. It'd be interesting to do a follow up with him working at Dog Town and seeing first hand what dog fighting and other abuses does to dogs. Make him work with some of them to see if there is really any compassion and remorse.

Otherwise I don't particularly want to see him back in the NFL, but no doubt he will get that chance. I will be surprised if the commish lets him back this season though. Let's see where he is a year from now and then decide.

[Samdari]

Now there I'd disagree, because I don't recall any viewer erosion surrounding his absence.

It's why I made the distinction about ticket sales being lower with Ryan than with Vick ... people who go to games and people who watch games on TV aren't necessarily the same people.

Take me, I'll turn the TV on at some point most Sundays but I'd sooner have dental work done than go to the Georgia Dome. It's a mediocre building with the worst staff I've ever seen at a venue, even worse parking, and it's easier to watch a game on the big screen than on the field. But I'll casually watch on TV, just like 8% to 15% of the rest of Atlanta. We'll watch because it's on and as long as it's an NFC matchup then those folks are going to be clicking through on TV (AFC games generally get noticeably lower ratings in Atlanta and in a number of other markets).

If you lose one major sponsor in the stadium and a minor sponsor on the local radio and because of Vick, you've eaten up the difference in ticket sales pretty quick.

Good point about the sponsors - you would lose those.

I think the number of viewers the NFL would lose due to Vick's returning would be immeasurably small, so even if more people don't tune in to watch Vick, the net is at worst zero.

But ticket sales - you'd probably get on the order of 100 cancellations, and gain up to 10,000 ticket sales.

Once the sponsor's realized that people were more excited about Vick's return than indignant, they'd come back too. Although, you might lose a year from them.

I just think the whole idea of sports fans changing their consuming habits based on moral indignation is a figment of the media's imagination. The public did not care when Augusta did not let women in. They did not care when most of baseball was on steroids (in fact, they paid more attention). I think its that last point that is Vick's ray of hope. Wherever he goes, people will pay more attention to the team. A large bit of media coverage will be negative, but in a market where people are not paying attention (like Jacksonville) I think the net effect of that additional attention will be good for the team.

[Matthean]

Let's see, his highest passing completion was 56.4% and then it went down from there. He's not played in two years so I doubt his accuracy is even the same as it was when he left(52.6%). He fumbles the ball around 75% of games. One of his best years in terms of accuracy and QB rating was the year he fumbled it more than he threw for TDs. He actually had 17 total TDs and 19 total TOs. He was getting sacked almost 2.7 times a game in his last three seasons. He's basically a lesser talented Pat White at this point. I'm giving his return a fairly "meh" type response.

[KWhit]

I'd actually like to see him on an episode of Dog Town, a great show on National Geographic channel. They took several of his dogs and did a special episode on them. It'd be interesting to do a follow up with him working at Dog Town and seeing first hand what dog fighting and other abuses does to dogs. Make him work with some of them to see if there is really any compassion and remorse.

Dude, he reportedly electrocuted dogs himself and threw in untrained family dogs into the fighting pit to get torn apart by the pitbulls. I think he has already seen what dogfighting does to dogs and thought it was a hoot.

[flere-imsaho]

Reports are that Vick is going to be working with the Humane Society of America upon his release. The head of that organization met with Vick in prison recently, and apprantly believes he's remorseful.

As I stated in the original thread, this is the most obvious route to take if he wants to rehabilitate his image. Do a big mea culpa in appearances/advertisements for the Humane Society and donate whatever money/time he can and it'll eventually wash over. At some point he's gotta realize how much earning potential he just pissed away because of some ephemeral enjoyment of dog fighting.

[Thomkal]

Dude, he reportedly electrocuted dogs himself and threw in untrained family dogs into the fighting pit to get torn apart by the pitbulls. I think he has already seen what dogfighting does to dogs and thought it was a hoot.

That was when he thought it was okay to do so. I want to see if that mindset has changed at all.

[Dr. Sak]

Dude, he reportedly electrocuted dogs himself and threw in untrained family dogs into the fighting pit to get torn apart by the pitbulls. I think he has already seen what dogfighting does to dogs and thought it was a hoot.

If this is true it makes me sick. Maybe he should be dropped in a UFC ring and be forced to fight it out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Do a big mea culpa in appearances/ advertisements for the Humane Society and donate whatever money/time he can and it'll eventually wash over.

I don't believe they plan to let him off the hook that easily, at least not on their time. Although I was surprised & disappointed that they were considering working with him as of earlier this week, they did make it pretty clear that cutting some PSA's wasn't going to cut it. They apparently want him in communities at the grass roots level and not only talking the talk but walking the walk in a close order drill to genuinely try to reach current/future dog fighters.

It has also crossed my mind that they might be giving him just enough rope to hang himself with if they do eventually allow him to work a deal with them.
What's the phrase the commish has been using, something like he wants to see "genuine remorse" (or something like that). If he botches the deal and the Humane Society walks away from him after a few months because of a lack of sincerity, that's all Goodell would need.

And it's never a bad bet to go with Ron Mexico to fuck something up.

[kcchief19]

Has his release been on ESPN and whatnot this morning? The local media have been following him like crazy. They followed him from Leavenworth to a Residence Inn near the airport. He is supposedly driving cross country to Virginia but I guess was trying to throw the media off the sniff so they would stop following him. I think if he kept going they'd give up by the time he got to Columbia.

[JonInMiddleGA]

His initial stop actually provide perhaps the only humor I've found in the whole mess.

Vick and fiance Kijafa Frink drove to a hotel about half an hour away, and from there they’ll start the more than 1,100-mile drive home to Hampton, the newspaper reported.

Yep, I bet they did. {wink, wink, nudge, nudge,)

[Fighter of Foo]

That was when he thought it was okay to do so. I want to see if that mindset has changed at all.

How the fuck could you EVER know the answer to that? Seriously, how?

[Lathum]

That was when he thought it was okay to do so. I want to see if that mindset has changed at all.

umm, what?

IMO, The only reason his mindset has changed is because he got caught. Do you really think he never saw firsthand what fighting did to dogs, he just didn't care. You think all of a sudden some switch is gonna get flipped and he is going to see dogs as cute, cuddly, companions?

A tiger doesn't change it's stripes. Had he never been caught he would still be carrying out these heinous acts to this day.

[tucker342]

I really just want Vick to go away and most importantly not be picked up by the 49ers