(Little League) Is this poor sportsmanship?

[Landshark44]

I'm coaching Little League.....

One of the teams in the league, when in the field, has all of the kids on the team say "creep, step, win" in unison every time the ball is pitched.

"Win" sounds like, and is obviously meant to sound like "Swing", is yelled as the ball approaches the plate to throw off the timing of the young batters.

The coaches of this team say they are doing nothing wrong, and they may not be, but it bugs me.......

Is this an acceptable thing, or is it in bad taste?

[RainMaker]

It's not against the rules from what I know of but it's bush league. Baseball has an unwritten code of ethics and this coach is a doughebag for not abiding by them.

[rowech]

Against rules no...poor sportsmanship probably.

[DanGarion]

So no one ever went "hey batta, batta, batta, swing batta" when they played LL. WTF?

Hey let's baby the kids now it's all about inclusion!

[Balldog]

I think its time to have your pitcher send a message.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't think I've ever seen a team up to, say, teenage not do that stuff.

As a really really young pitcher I hated the "swing" thing because the anticipation of it threw me off more than the hitter, but that's been part of every young team I can recall from me being a kid all the way through my own.

[fantom1979]

I played baseball from 5 until 24 and I can honestly say I cannot recall anyone ever doing the Hey, batta, batta, batta thing. I think the first time I ever heard that phrase was in a movie (Ferris Bueller I think)

[wade moore]

So no one ever went "hey batta, batta, batta, swing batta" when they played LL. WTF?

Hey let's baby the kids now it's all about inclusion!+1

[Ksyrup]

I had to laugh when I saw this post, because apparently none of you have ever witnessed girls softball. Both teams are constantly engaged in a battle of cheers/chants throughout the game. It's the softball version of "the game within the game." Drives me nuts, and at the end of a tournament, I've got like a dozen different chants going through my head. One of the new ones I heard from a scrimmage last night, as the pitcher winds up, is goodeyegoodeyegoodeyeBALL as she releases it, and just constantly chanting that over and over as the pitcher sets up.

On this general subject though, we have our first softball tournament this weekend, and we're finding out that the rules allow an awful lot of things that at this age group I think should just be outlawed or at least curtailed, until the girls are able to play the game more fundamentally strong at a later age. This is under 10 fastpitch softball, and is the first age group where the girls are actually pitching to the batters (U8 was coach-pitched), can steal bases, the catcher actually has to do more than just retrieve the balls lobbed in by the coach, etc. And the amount of shit we're apparently going to see this weekend of teams (IMO) abusing the rules and turning a fundamental game of baseball into a bad joke is going to be ridiculous.

For instance, we now have to come up with 2 or 3 different "plays" just to get the ball back to the pitcher from the catcher with a runner on third. Apparently, the better/more aggressive teams will have the runner tease down the line enough to force the catcher to run them back, then when they throw the ball to the pitcher, the runner takes off and the catcher's out of position. So the play is that after EVERY PITCH, the first baseman has to sprint to home to cover, so that the catcher can come up the line and force the runner back to third, just to throw the ball back to the pitcher. I just think that's absurd. Wjhat's wrong with a rule that says if the runner is not breaking for the next base before the pitcher is holding the ball in the circle, then the play is dead? that makes too much sense, I guess. Gotta allow teams to steal runs under the guise of "but that's baseball." There's a reason you hardly ever see that shit in high school or above, and that's because the kids can catch and throw well enough to stop it nearly every time, so teams don't try. At this age level, I think holding them to that standard and allowing teams to score that way makes the game of baseball secondary, and they're really not learning anything other than a bunch of useless plays to deal with what will be routine when they get older. Why put them through that now?

Another one is with a runner on third, a walk is essentially a double. Girl gets walked, she sprints to first and just keeps going, because at 10 fucking years old, maybe 5% of all teams could pull off some sort of play where they either throw out the runner at second and still hold the runner at third, or cut off a throw to second and get the runner out at third or home. To me, that's just a bastardization of the game at this age level. I'm all for aggressive baserunning and trying to win and taking all the advantages you can, but at some point you have to maintain some semblance of the game until the girls are physically able to enforce the rules of the game themselves, and stuff like basically giving up second base on those kinds of plays or having to screw around with runners baiting the catcher on every pitch just to get the ball back to the pitcher, just shouldn't be allowed, IMO.

I can see I'm in for a fun weekend/summer of tournament games...

[Landshark44]

it doesn't bug me because its effective.....

we busted them up 16-3 the last time we played, and i don't think any of my kids have ever complained about it. when i brought it to the attention of their coaches, they looked at me like i was nuts...

they pretty much said this......

"So no one ever went "hey batta, batta, batta, swing batta" when they played LL. WTF?" Dangarion

but i feel more like this.....

"It's not against the rules from what I know of but it's bush league. Baseball has an unwritten code of ethics and this coach is a doughebag for not abiding by them" Rainmaker

So, I thought it was an interesting question for you guys....

[JonInMiddleGA]

"It's not against the rules from what I know of but it's bush league. Baseball has an unwritten code of ethics and this coach is a doughebag for not abiding by them"

It's a fair enough question IMO, it's just part & parcel of the youth game & has been for literally as far back as I can remember.

And as I recall, it gets a lot quieter on the infield after a couple of line drives through the box/down the lines or long balls over everybody's head. And I mean a lot quieter ;)

[Ksyrup]

And as I recall, it gets a lot quieter on the infield after a couple of line drives through the box/down the lines or long balls over everybody's head. And I mean a lot quieter ;)

Once again, a big difference between girls and boys. Team could be down 20-1 and they are still cheering about how they are going to whip ass, like the game has never started.

[Toddzilla]

I can remember playing little league - keep in mind this was as century ago almost - and every team on every pitch was doing the "batter batter swing" chant. But when I was hitting, I never heard it - I was focused on hitting. I

[Landshark44]

Once again, a big difference between girls and boys. Team could be down 20-1 and they are still cheering about how they are going to whip ass, like the game has never started.


thats how these kids were....

we were beating them 15-3, and they still kept doing the "creep, step, win" thing every pitch at the behest of their coaches...

then, one of my kids stole home on a passed ball and we were accused of bad sportsmanship, (running up the score)....

when i pointed out the "creep, step, win" thing, i was given a look like they didn't know what i was talking about, and said it's not the same thing...

it is, right?

[BrianD]

Were they doing the chant while moving themselves to a good defensive position? This may not have been so much about throwing the batter's timing and more about getting into proper fielding position. I remember being taught to have the glove on the ground and take a step forward at the pitch. We just did it silently.

[JonInMiddleGA]

then, one of my kids stole home on a passed ball and we were accused of bad sportsmanship, (running up the score)....
... when i pointed out the "creep, step, win" thing, i was given a look like they didn't know what i was talking about, and said it's not the same thing...
it is, right?

To me, not really.

One is just racket, much like crowd noise. The other is a run on the scoreboard. Now that said, in no way whatsoever do I count advancing on a passed ball as "stealing home". One is playing the game, the other might border on running it up.

I will mention that I have known coaches who encouraged organized infield chatter as a way of trying to keep their players focused on the upcoming pitch. I prefer other ways of doing that but I do recall hearing that reasoning for it. Down 15-3 I could see where that's a possibility for active encouragement of it (although by no means assured). Plus, if you were up 15-3 then I'm not sure that it wasn't doing their team much good ;)

[Draft Dodger]

seems kind of douchy to me. not quite unsportsmanlike, though.

[Ksyrup]

then, one of my kids stole home on a passed ball and we were accused of bad sportsmanship, (running up the score)....

See, there's nothing wrong with that. Valid part of the game of baseball. If that happens to us this weekend (and I'm sure it will, many times), you just live with it and treat it as a teachable moment about blocking the plate and making the sure the pitcher remembers to cover home. Purposely having your runner stay at third on that kind of play is like making your RB run straight into the line and get tackled just because you're winning by 5 TDs with 10 minutes left. You have to let them play and compete to the end.

[Landshark44]

Were they doing the chant while moving themselves to a good defensive position? This may not have been so much about throwing the batter's timing and more about getting into proper fielding position. I remember being taught to have the glove on the ground and take a step forward at the pitch. We just did it silently.

yes, that is the reasoning the coaches gave me after the game. i thought it was just a way for them to rationalize it, and thought that their true motives were to disrupt timing....

i never considered that this was the actual reason. i thought that was just some bullshit they gave me when i questioned them...

i played soccer and football, not a lot of baseball.....

it seems like you guys are kind of split on it....

[lungs]

I always found that chants in unison by an infield to sound damn stupid.

Unorganized chatter is another story. I like that and did plenty of that.

[Samdari]

when i pointed out the "creep, step, win" thing, i was given a look like they didn't know what i was talking about, and said it's not the same thing...

it is, right?

Its not the same thing at all. "Infield chatter" has been present at every little league game I ever attended. It was always "batter, batter, swing" for us.

I found out later from a LL coach who became a good friend of my parents, that the main point of having the fielders do so was to give them something to do that forced them to pay attention to the game, rather than to actually distract the hitter. That way, if the ball was hit to them, they'd be looking at it, rather than the flowers, sky, playground nearby, etc.

For that matter, I don't think that having someone advance a base (even to home) on a passed ball is bad sportsmanship. Its teaching the proper way to play the game.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think its time to have your pitcher send a message.

+1

[DaddyTorgo]

I had to laugh when I saw this post, because apparently none of you have ever witnessed girls softball. Both teams are constantly engaged in a battle of cheers/chants throughout the game. It's the softball version of "the game within the game." Drives me nuts, and at the end of a tournament, I've got like a dozen different chants going through my head. One of the new ones I heard from a scrimmage last night, as the pitcher winds up, is goodeyegoodeyegoodeyeBALL as she releases it, and just constantly chanting that over and over as the pitcher sets up.

On this general subject though, we have our first softball tournament this weekend, and we're finding out that the rules allow an awful lot of things that at this age group I think should just be outlawed or at least curtailed, until the girls are able to play the game more fundamentally strong at a later age. This is under 10 fastpitch softball, and is the first age group where the girls are actually pitching to the batters (U8 was coach-pitched), can steal bases, the catcher actually has to do more than just retrieve the balls lobbed in by the coach, etc. And the amount of shit we're apparently going to see this weekend of teams (IMO) abusing the rules and turning a fundamental game of baseball into a bad joke is going to be ridiculous.

For instance, we now have to come up with 2 or 3 different "plays" just to get the ball back to the pitcher from the catcher with a runner on third. Apparently, the better/more aggressive teams will have the runner tease down the line enough to force the catcher to run them back, then when they throw the ball to the pitcher, the runner takes off and the catcher's out of position. So the play is that after EVERY PITCH, the first baseman has to sprint to home to cover, so that the catcher can come up the line and force the runner back to third, just to throw the ball back to the pitcher. I just think that's absurd. Wjhat's wrong with a rule that says if the runner is not breaking for the next base before the pitcher is holding the ball in the circle, then the play is dead? that makes too much sense, I guess. Gotta allow teams to steal runs under the guise of "but that's baseball." There's a reason you hardly ever see that shit in high school or above, and that's because the kids can catch and throw well enough to stop it nearly every time, so teams don't try. At this age level, I think holding them to that standard and allowing teams to score that way makes the game of baseball secondary, and they're really not learning anything other than a bunch of useless plays to deal with what will be routine when they get older. Why put them through that now?

Another one is with a runner on third, a walk is essentially a double. Girl gets walked, she sprints to first and just keeps going, because at 10 fucking years old, maybe 5% of all teams could pull off some sort of play where they either throw out the runner at second and still hold the runner at third, or cut off a throw to second and get the runner out at third or home. To me, that's just a bastardization of the game at this age level. I'm all for aggressive baserunning and trying to win and taking all the advantages you can, but at some point you have to maintain some semblance of the game until the girls are physically able to enforce the rules of the game themselves, and stuff like basically giving up second base on those kinds of plays or having to screw around with runners baiting the catcher on every pitch just to get the ball back to the pitcher, just shouldn't be allowed, IMO.

I can see I'm in for a fun weekend/summer of tournament games...

wow...really? that's ridiculous. Time to have your pitcher send a message and plunk some girl.

Not sure how they can just get to first on a walk and then keep going to second - that's pretty messed up. But i guess softball has weirdass rules.

[BYU 14]

I always subscribe to the theory that as a coach you should focus on the fundamentals of the game and not extraneous bullshit like this that has nothing to do with improving as a team or individual players.

It is not illegal, but it is definitely annoying and though they can explain it away by saying it is being done to focus the kids on "getting into position" or "mentally ready" it is still a disruption tactic. That's fine, we'll just play sound baseball and you can chant.

After they made the comment about scoring on a passed ball though I probably would have thrown in a snide remark like. "Maybe you should devote more practice time to your pitchers control instead of chants."
taking the extra base and stealing and other measures to deliberately score more runs is poor sportsmanship. You can't really expect your kids to stay rooted to a base on a passed ball though.

[Ksyrup]

wow...really? that's ridiculous. Time to have your pitcher send a message and plunk some girl.

Not sure how they can just get to first on a walk and then keep going to second - that's pretty messed up. But i guess softball has weirdass rules.

Well, even in real baseball, the play is "live" on a walk. If a runner was stupid enough, he could take off for second. But at a certain level, you don't do that because the players are good enough and have strong enough arms and an ability to catch that prevents that from being a valid option. 10 year old girls don't have that ability. So it becomes an automatic play to take advantage of. What gets me is that the people who make the rules at the NSA and ASA level, don't recognize that and try to curb it. Instead, they seem to encourage it. Very strange for me to understand, as a newbie to this whole thing. All 4/5 of us who are coaching this team are new to this, so it's going to be a frustrating and eye-opening experience.

[DaddyTorgo]

Well, even in real baseball, the play is "live" on a walk. If a runner was stupid enough, he could take off for second. But at a certain level, you don't do that because the players are good enough and have strong enough arms and an ability to catch that prevents that from being a valid option. 10 year old girls don't have that ability. So it becomes an automatic play to take advantage of. What gets me is that the people who make the rules at the NSA and ASA level, don't recognize that and try to curb it. Instead, they seem to encourage it. Very strange for me to understand, as a newbie to this whole thing. All 4/5 of us who are coaching this team are new to this, so it's going to be a frustrating and eye-opening experience.

But you don't see boys in little league doing that necessarily - and i wouldn't say a 10 year-old male catcher has the ability to beat a runner to 2nd. maybe the solution is after a walk the catcher walks the ball halfway out to the pitcher and stands there until the kid stops at 1b and then tosses it to the pitcher in the circle (when the runners have to stop right?)

That way the kid can't break for home cuz the catcher can beat them back, and can't break for 2nd cuz the throw can beat them.

[CU Tiger]

For instance, we now have to come up with 2 or 3 different "plays" just to get the ball back to the pitcher from the catcher with a runner on third. Apparently, the better/more aggressive teams will have the runner tease down the line enough to force the catcher to run them back, then when they throw the ball to the pitcher, the runner takes off and the catcher's out of position. So the play is that after EVERY PITCH, the first baseman has to sprint to home to cover, so that the catcher can come up the line and force the runner back to third, just to throw the ball back to the pitcher. I just think that's absurd. Wjhat's wrong with a rule that says if the runner is not breaking for the next base before the pitcher is holding the ball in the circle, then the play is dead? that makes too much sense, I guess. Gotta allow teams to steal runs under the guise of "but that's baseball." There's a reason you hardly ever see that shit in high school or above, and that's because the kids can catch and throw well enough to stop it nearly every time, so teams don't try. At this age level, I think holding them to that standard and allowing teams to score that way makes the game of baseball secondary, and they're really not learning anything other than a bunch of useless plays to deal with what will be routine when they get older. Why put them through that now?

Another one is with a runner on third, a walk is essentially a double. Girl gets walked, she sprints to first and just keeps going, because at 10 fucking years old, maybe 5% of all teams could pull off some sort of play where they either throw out the runner at second and still hold the runner at third, or cut off a throw to second and get the runner out at third or home. To me, that's just a bastardization of the game at this age level. I'm all for aggressive baserunning and trying to win and taking all the advantages you can, but at some point you have to maintain some semblance of the game until the girls are physically able to enforce the rules of the game themselves, and stuff like basically giving up second base on those kinds of plays or having to screw around with runners baiting the catcher on every pitch just to get the ball back to the pitcher, just shouldn't be allowed, IMO.

I can see I'm in for a fun weekend/summer of tournament games...
I'll admit to knowing jack about FP softball rules as opposed to baseball, but why not either have the pitcher walk to home and take the ball, or simply have the catcher call time when either A)The runner is back on 3rd or B) the walked runner is on first?

[JonInMiddleGA]

But you don't see boys in little league doing that necessarily

Nah, I always waited one pitch ;) Led the league in steals pretty much every year I played despite being the slowest kid on the field most of the time.

maybe the solution is after a walk the catcher walks the ball halfway out to the pitcher and stands there until the kid stops at 1b and then tosses it to the pitcher in the circle (when the runners have to stop right?)

Assuming the return of the ball to the pitcher stops the play, I really really like this.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'll admit to knowing jack about FP softball rules as opposed to baseball, but why not either have the pitcher walk to home and take the ball, or simply have the catcher call time when either A)The runner is back on 3rd or B) the walked runner is on first?

I was a fastpitch umpire for 11 years, so I'll chime in here.

1. The walked runner (or any runner for that matter) has every right to continue running all the way around the bases, even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. But if that runner hesistates at any point without the pitcher making a play, they are out. The pitcher being in the circle doesn't require that the runners stop. But it does require that they immediately make a decision to run to the next base or head back to the previous base.

2. The pitcher coming towards home plate is used occasionally.

3. The best thing I can suggest to coaches who run into an opposing coach that employs the tactic of trying to steal home after the catcher vacates their position is just to have their catcher take the ball and sit down on home plate and stare down the runner. After the first batter or two, the parents and crowd will get riled up about the delays on every pitch since these games often have a time limit and it's keeping the kids from playing the game. This puts the pressure on the opposing coach to quit the tactics and let them play the game. I've seen it done many times while umpiring and it's quite effective.

[flere-imsaho]

I think its time to have your pitcher send a message.

+2

[Ksyrup]

I'll admit to knowing jack about FP softball rules as opposed to baseball, but why not either have the pitcher walk to home and take the ball, or simply have the catcher call time when either A)The runner is back on 3rd or B) the walked runner is on first?

A is definitely what we are going to do most of the time, unless the girl is so far down the line that she is a threat to go at some point while the pitcher goes back to the mound/circle. And even then, the pitcher basically has to walk backwards to the mound with an eye on the runner. As far as we can tell and have been told, there is no "time out" that can be called. The play is never dead and always live. I plan on checking out some of the other games before ours to see how this is played out, but from what our A team coaches told us yesterday (these are the girls who played this level last year and are 10 years old going on 11, and our B team is playing this level for the first time as 9 going on 10), it's all fair game and the umps usually will not call time or force runners to go back to their bases once a play has "ended."

The problem with the runner on third/batter walked scenario is that once the runner gets to first, even if the pitcher has the ball in hand on the mound, if the girl on 1st continues to run, what's the play? There is no time out. We (mistakenly) believed that once the pitcher had the ball in the circle, the play was dead. That's not so, according to our other team's coaches. So you've got the ball halfway between home and second, and the runner on 1st goes, and you either throw to 2nd to try to get her out and give up the run at home (and worst-case, the throw goes into CF and they've got another run or a runner at third, and the ridiculousness starts all over again), or you just eat it and let her have 2nd, but keep the runner at 3rd from scoring.

I'm hoping the umps won't allow this nonsense in the games, but we've been told what they showed us last night was just the tip of the iceberg on what teams will be trying to do to score runs. I'm just amazed that the umps will be allowing this kind of stuff to occur, but we'll find out first-hand this weekend. If you see an AP story after this weekend about a girls softball coach jailed for bum-rushing a tournament official, think of me. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

that's just a stupid rule then. really idk what the intent of it is - it should be age-adjusted.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ksyrup - what you're describing sounds like a rule book shortcoming or a poor interpretation of the rule. I mean, if play is never dead, then why wait for the next batter to get in the box before throwing a strike? If they can make a play then by all rights you should be able to as well, and not just on the runner. It's either a live ball or it isn't. Also, watch to see if the umpire gives a play ball signal to the pitcher after a scoring play or even once the batter is ready in the box. If so, unless it's a time warning (or unless the rules specify something otherwise) then play must have been dead in order for the umpire to signal its resumption. Or at least that's what makes sense to me.

I'm going to guess that this is fast-pitch (since slow-pitch is all but dead most places) and it illustrates why a strikeout pitcher is the most important thing to have. Get a good (or great) one and the runners can stand at 2nd & 3rd til the inning is over.

The other most important thing to have in virtually every youth coaching scenario is a copy of the rulebook, as well as any & all amendments that the league has made to those rules since most leagues seem to have some statement "the official rules of X apply, except Y, Z, and in case of A and B".
It eliminates the need to rely on what someone says and gives you a leg to stand on.

[Ksyrup]

I was a fastpitch umpire for 11 years, so I'll chime in here.

1. The walked runner (or any runner for that matter) has every right to continue running all the way around the bases, even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle. But if that runner hesistates at any point without the pitcher making a play, they are out. The pitcher being in the circle doesn't require that the runners stop. But it does require that they immediately make a decision to run to the next base or head back to the previous base.

2. The pitcher coming towards home plate is used occasionally.

3. The best thing I can suggest to coaches who run into an opposing coach that employs the tactic of trying to steal home after the catcher vacates their position is just to have their catcher take the ball and sit down on home plate and stare down the runner. After the first batter or two, the parents and crowd will get riled up about the delays on every pitch since these games often have a time limit and it's keeping the kids from playing the game. This puts the pressure on the opposing coach to quit the tactics and let them play the game. I've seen it done many times while umpiring and it's quite effective.

Thanks, this is helpful. When you say the runner hesitates, do you mean stops at first before trying for second, or just that when they take off for second, if they stop and go back, they are out? This is important for our girls on the basepaths, too, so we can tell them what to do properly. If we want to use this tactic (and I guess we should - no sense putting ourselves at a disadvantage based on principle), they should run down to first and immediately keep going to second, without any kind of hesitation at any point?

We definitely thought about the stare down thing. That's essentially what was occurring during our scrimmage, but mostly because our girls didn't know how to handle the situation, so the catcher would just sit there, walking slowly up the line, while the runner baited her. Eventually, after 30-60 seconds of this after every pitch, we talked to the other coaches and they told us that this was allowed and showed us plays to deal with it. But I still think it's flipping ridiculous.

[Ksyrup]

My guess is that after a "play" has occurred - say, a run-scoring single and the ball is back to the pitcher - then the play is considered dead. On a pitch or a walk/hit batter, though, the play is not dead and the runners can run all day if they want. There has to be some sort of "end of play" scenario in most cases, though, or else the requirement that the runner keep her foot on the bag until the pitch is released would be irrelevant. It's really just an issue in the limited instance (although frequent, at this age) where the runner on third does not retreat to the bag after a pitch and/or there is a walk or hit batter, where that runner can just continue on to the next base, regardless of whether the pitcher has the ball in hand in the circle.

[Sun Tzu]

I think its time to have your pitcher send a message.

You know, I don't know if Balldog said this in jest, but IMO think this would be the more traditional way of shutting them up. I was born with a ball and glove in my lap, and was raised living and breathing the game by my father. I'm even named after a baseball player. If a team was pulling some shit like this, I would be more than ok with our pitcher sending a few fastballs behind the batter. You'd better believe that they would do this in any teams minor league system, or even in the show.

[stevew]

I think at some point I'd probably have to resort to throwing at the opposing teams players, more specifically the coaches son or daughter. If people want to act with zero class, it's your duty to try to go lower.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Thanks, this is helpful. When you say the runner hesitates, do you mean stops at first before trying for second, or just that when they take off for second, if they stop and go back, they are out? This is important for our girls on the basepaths, too, so we can tell them what to do properly. If we want to use this tactic (and I guess we should - no sense putting ourselves at a disadvantage based on principle), they should run down to first and immediately keep going to second, without any kind of hesitation at any point?

That is correct. The rule is that the runner must be moving in one direction at all times if the pitcher is in the circle. The ball becomes dead when the pitcher is in the circle and all runners are at a base.

If the pitcher is in the circle but making no play on the runner, any runners not on a base must commit to going forward to the next base or return to the previous one. If they do not commit but rather stand in between bases, they should be called out.

If the pitcher moves towards a live runner or raise their arm to make a play, the ball is live again and the runner can hesitate, even if the pitcher is in the circle. The runner can do whatever they want until the pitcher returns to the pitching rubber.

The tactic of having a runner continue to second on a walk when a runner is at third is very common in softball. My suggestion at the age you're dealing with is to just ignore it.

We definitely thought about the stare down thing. That's essentially what was occurring during our scrimmage, but mostly because our girls didn't know how to handle the situation, so the catcher would just sit there, walking slowly up the line, while the runner baited her. Eventually, after 30-60 seconds of this after every pitch, we talked to the other coaches and they told us that this was allowed and showed us plays to deal with it. But I still think it's flipping ridiculous.

I can't emphasize enough that the delay tactic of sitting on the plate often works wonders in regards to the runner at third base coming down the baseline. It may not work in a scrimmage, but a bunch of rowdy parents can get it stopped in a big hurry. It's sad that it has to be done, but that's the way things work at those younger ages when they first start pitching.

[AgustusM]

I think the missing information here is age. Little league encompasses 4-14. I don't like it at all at the younger ages, but the older ones need to be able to block it out.

I am the commissioner of the local 10 year old league and I tell my players to knock it off mostly because I get sick of hearing it. Also 10 year olds have really small attention spans. I have found that spending precious attention on a stupid chant takes their attention away from getting ready to field the ball and think ahead on where they should throw it.

I do however let them do it a little in practice, so the hitters get practice ignoring it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

On a pitch or a walk/hit batter, though, the play is not dead and the runners can run all day if they want.

Ball is live on a pitch, walk, or dropped 3rd strike. Ball is immediately dead on a HBP.

[Mustang]

I'm even named after a baseball player.

Sun Tzu : The Art of Bunting

[Huckleberry]

A few options for dealing with the OP's situation:


Have one of your kids yell out "y'all really suck at the win part of the chant" right after a taken pitch near the end of the game. Assuming you're kicking their ass again.
Have your kids start their own chant in response that goes "creep...step...LOSE BY 13 RUNS!" or something similar.
Have your kids repeat the chant in a mocking tone when up big.
Have your pitcher chant loudly enough to be heard "creep...step...WIN!" and throw a pitch 2 feet behind the batter.Depending on the age and the league #4 may not be an option or certainly something you wouldn't officially encourage as the coach. But I can assure you that on my youth teams all of the 4 options above would have either been considered or would have happened with no suggestion from the coaches required.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Y'know, this does bring to mind the old adage about the importance of throwing strikes. No walk, no problem.

Glad I could help ;)

[johnnyshaka]

Coached Little League for 10 years and have seen just about everything mentioned in this thread.

My take on the chatter, as a coach, is that it's fine, especially since they are using it to get the kids focused and in a good fielding position and I don't think they are antagonizing the opposing batters like yelling the common crap, like "batter, batter, batter, swing!" I prefer if the kids would encourage their own players instead of trying to "jinx" the opposition.

As an adult, I find it utterly annoying to hear it all game long, but the kids like to do it and have fun doing it, and that's the whole point. Let them be kids.

[Tasan]

I had my most frustrating experience as a dad with a kid in baseball this last weekend. My son is SIX, in a league with other 6 year olds. Its coach pitched baseball. The other coach had his players taking extra bases when our players would drop a throw to them, which, well, at SIX YEARS OLD is EVERY FREAKING THROW. Our coach had words with him a couple of times and finally it started getting a little better. The teenage "officials" were no help except on one play. The first 2 games of the season were nothing like this, with both teams just working with the kids so that they understood what the heck was going on out there. I guess there's gotta be a dick in every group though. Hopefully this will be the only team like this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sorry Tasan but I see no problem with what you're describing at all. Been there, done that on the coach pitch thing & had a miserable experience but teaching players when to advance is very much part of the learning process, as is learning how to back up throws & make the correct play to limit the damage caused by errors.

It's frustrating as a coach but it's an extremely legitimate part of the game. Sounds like you might be happier in a non-score league.

[Tasan]

Its a non-score league, which I'm totally for at this age. When they get bigger and have fundamentals down, thats when you start keeping score. The whole non-score thing is what really bothers me about it, should have mentioned that in the first post.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The whole non-score thing is what really bothers me about it, should have mentioned that in the first post.

Okay in that case it doesn't make much sense, I'll agree with you about that.

Since it doesn't matter anyway, the league might want to consider a one base maximum advance rule of some sort, which limits the movement but still allows the teaching of a pretty useful skill.

[Ksyrup]

That is correct. The rule is that the runner must be moving in one direction at all times if the pitcher is in the circle. The ball becomes dead when the pitcher is in the circle and all runners are at a base.

If the pitcher is in the circle but making no play on the runner, any runners not on a base must commit to going forward to the next base or return to the previous one. If they do not commit but rather stand in between bases, they should be called out.

If the pitcher moves towards a live runner or raise their arm to make a play, the ball is live again and the runner can hesitate, even if the pitcher is in the circle. The runner can do whatever they want until the pitcher returns to the pitching rubber.

The tactic of having a runner continue to second on a walk when a runner is at third is very common in softball. My suggestion at the age you're dealing with is to just ignore it.



I can't emphasize enough that the delay tactic of sitting on the plate often works wonders in regards to the runner at third base coming down the baseline. It may not work in a scrimmage, but a bunch of rowdy parents can get it stopped in a big hurry. It's sad that it has to be done, but that's the way things work at those younger ages when they first start pitching.

Thanks again. This will be very helpful.

[Ksyrup]

Ball is live on a pitch, walk, or dropped 3rd strike. Ball is immediately dead on a HBP.

Interesting. No one caught that during the scrimmage, as a HBP was treated the same way as a walk.

[Chubby]

Sorry Tasan but I see no problem with what you're describing at all. Been there, done that on the coach pitch thing & had a miserable experience but teaching players when to advance is very much part of the learning process, as is learning how to back up throws & make the correct play to limit the damage caused by errors.

It's frustrating as a coach but it's an extremely legitimate part of the game. Sounds like you might be happier in a non-score league.

To be a poor sport? Sorry, but at that age it's about learning fundamentals, how to work with others and having fun not who can be the bigger douche coach. Why even put fielders out there then? Hell, let the kid hit and just instruct to sprint around the bases because they won't ever tag him out most likely...

[Barkeep49]

Y'know, this does bring to mind the old adage about the importance of throwing strikes. No walk, no problem.

Glad I could help ;)
This is the truest thing posted in this whole thread. If you have a pitcher who throws strikes, and a catcher who can catch them (can't tell you how frustrating it is when you have a catcher who can't catch at the young ages) things will just work out fine. This year my Little League team can't hit (we have a batting average of .175) but yet we remain competitive as we've got some absolutely dominating pitchers (4 kids with a WHIP under 2).

As for the original point, I think landshark is in the best position to know in what spirit it was offered, but I have no issues with the idea of that chant at the Little League age for all the reasons people have given, both in terms of focus and fundamentals.

[Ksyrup]

We're trying hard to develop several pitchers. Had them working since before winter with a former college softball pitcher who lives in the area. But teaching that underhand technique (honestly, I don't know how they do it and not blow out their arms by 15!) and controlling it, at 10 years old with 6 months practice and very little real game time, is extremely difficult.

My daughter is one of 2 catchers who basically picked up the equipment for the first time in February. She's trying her best, but it's all new to her and all of the responsibilities (catching/blocking the ball, fielding bunts, learning how/when to throw out base stealers, dealing with passed balls/wild pitches, the dropped third strike rule, etc.) are overwhelming her, I can tell. And then the whole runner on third thing that came up last night almost drove her to tears. I'm probably going to work with her tonight and tomorrow some to get her more comfortable with all of the situations she's going to face.

[Travis]

Best thing, at these ages is to use these things as examples for your own kids.

Obviously if another team is being obnoxious or poor sports, it's worth having the coach bringing it up with them, but it's a pretty rare case where that'll likely do anything.

So for some of the stuff mentioned, here's my take:

- The chanting as the pitcher is throwing: Teach your kids the value of being able to shut out extraneous noise. Sure it's a bit young, but we're not golfing here. Being able to focus in on the task at hand is huge in pretty much every sport and while you may get some oddities along the way, a consistent chant happening on every pitch would be an ideal start for getting them used to tuning out idle chatter.

- The automatic taking of second: Obviously if it's a passed ball on the catcher then there's not much you can do about it, but even for younger kids who can't make good throws to second, teach them a short relay (C - P - whoever is covering 2nd). By getting the ball back to the pitcher quickly it'll either throw a wrench into the runner going directly to 2nd and if the other team is automatically starting the runner on 3rd as soon as the pitcher turns to relay it to 2nd, then start having them fake it every now and then to keep the runner on third honest.

Again, some of this is likely happening a bit early, but teaching the kids how to turn an opponents strategy against them is a valuable tool. Not just in preventing these situations but showing the kids, that with a bit of thought and planning, it can be applied to other situations as well.

Doesn't make the other team or coaches any better, but gives your team a positive way to deal with these situations, teach them base skills and encourage them to adapt to situations.

I'm still partial to the pickoff play at second when we used to have the center fielder sneak in to take the throw, much better than the hidden ball trick ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

To be a poor sport? Sorry, but at that age it's about learning fundamentals, how to work with others and having fun not who can be the bigger douche coach. Why even put fielders out there then? Hell, let the kid hit and just instruct to sprint around the bases because they won't ever tag him out most likely...

I had a team where half the players couldn't catch a cold in a snow storm but we somehow managed to get outs in the field. Hell Chubby, tee-ballers advance bases on errors and teams still (sometimes) get three outs before the other guy bats around.

Knowing when & how to advance as well as general baserunning is a fundamental part of the game. And it's hard to get more fundamental than backing up throws.

Again, since they aren't keeping score then I can see where a rule to manage this makes a certain amount of sense but there's nothing even remotely poor sportsmanship about playing the damned game the way it's meant to be played, which includes taking advantage of errors by your opponent.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting. No one caught that during the scrimmage, as a HBP was treated the same way as a walk.

Umpire should immediately raise his hands to stop play. All runners on base must return to the base they were at (unless they are forced to advance by the batter that was hit). They do it that way so they don't have players running around while a hit batter lays injured on the ground. Allows the staff to make sure the batter is OK. Same rules in baseball in that regard.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But teaching that underhand technique (honestly, I don't know how they do it and not blow out their arms by 15!) and controlling it, at 10 years old with 6 months practice and very little real game time, is extremely difficult.

Actually, pitching a softball is MUCH less stressful on the arm than pitching a baseball. Underhand is a natural motion that doesn't stress the shoulder nearly as much as an overhand motion, which is an unnatural motion. Elite softball pitchers can pitch on a daily basis or sometimes even twice a day, whereas an elite baseball pitcher requires a longer recovery time.

At that age, I'd suggest a back-and-through motion rather than a windmill motion just because it's easier to control. A windmill motion is used to gain speed on the pitch, but its effect is very small at that age. Control is much more important. The extra revolution to do a windmill motion can always be added in a year or two.

[evil homer]

i coach my 9 year old son's little league team, and help out with his travel team (well, really a local team that plays a local schedule, but we do travel to neighboring states for tournaments over the summer). in the little league, a rule was instituted that the dugout can chant and cheer, but must stop when the pitcher is going into his windup. myself and the other coaches hate listening to the chants anyway, so we even ask the kids to stop and just concentrate on the game. the kids doing the chanting are usually the kids that aren't the best players, so i guess that's a way to keep themselves involved.
in the travel league, the players are much more serious and there are hardly any chants at all. just "let's go joe", "need a hit here", etc. these kids are also much better overall and they really concentrate on what is going on in the game.

[INDalltheway]

This year my Little League team can't hit (we have a batting average of .175) but yet we remain competitive as we've got some absolutely dominating pitchers (4 kids with a WHIP under 2).

This cracks me up.. I'm glad you have all the stats up to date. ;)

[INDalltheway]

Dola

I think the creep..step..win is a good alternative to the other chatter you hear. As a former college infielder the sooner you teach them such things as the creep step and getting to the right ready position the better.

[RedHawk00]

I think its time to have your pitcher send a message.

this is what i was thinking... as a former pitcher, i have sent a message a time or two in my day. Once to the commish of the men's league

[CU Tiger]

I think at some point I'd probably have to resort to throwing at the opposing teams players, more specifically the coaches son or daughter. If people want to act with zero class, it's your duty to try to go lower.

this...even if they aren't in the game

[evil homer]

regarding the creep step, i'm curious as to what other coaches do. we teach our infielders (SS and 2B) to start on the edge of the outfield grass and work in on the pitch (we've had the same kids together since 6 and started this at that age). most of the other teams we play always play their infielders up on the edge of the infield grass (like they were playing for a play at the plate). we've talked to some of the other coaches and they say they play that way to get outs, but we feel its more important to teach them the right way to play (and keep them from getting hurt in the event of a hard line drive). what so the other coaches out there think?

[Travis]

regarding the creep step, i'm curious as to what other coaches do. we teach our infielders (SS and 2B) to start on the edge of the outfield grass and work in on the pitch (we've had the same kids together since 6 and started this at that age). most of the other teams we play always play their infielders up on the edge of the infield grass (like they were playing for a play at the plate). we've talked to some of the other coaches and they say they play that way to get outs, but we feel its more important to teach them the right way to play (and keep them from getting hurt in the event of a hard line drive). what so the other coaches out there think?

There's really no hard fast rule (that I've ever subscribed to) as it would vary by the player. Obviously the creep/footwork aspect and being in proper defensive position is very important, but as far as where to start the play depends on the hitter, type of pitcher, players speed/arm strength/etc/etc. So long as you're teaching them proper setup and form, the positioning itself will vary depending on the situation.

That said, so long as they have the arm, starting deeper, especially at short, seems to be the norm. Let the 3B take anything they can get to underneath and hopefully starting deeper means they can get to more up the middle. If you're getting beat with a lot of short rollers the pitcher/3B can't get to in time, then bring your SS in and really emphasize the proper ready position for when the ball is hit to help protect them.

[johnnyshaka]

regarding the creep step, i'm curious as to what other coaches do. we teach our infielders (SS and 2B) to start on the edge of the outfield grass and work in on the pitch (we've had the same kids together since 6 and started this at that age). most of the other teams we play always play their infielders up on the edge of the infield grass (like they were playing for a play at the plate). we've talked to some of the other coaches and they say they play that way to get outs, but we feel its more important to teach them the right way to play (and keep them from getting hurt in the event of a hard line drive). what so the other coaches out there think?

We used your approach with infielders because with the creep step movement you are in a better position to charge the ball and would likely get to the ball before somebody who is playing shallower and standing still. The whole point of the creep step is to teach the kids to be aggressive and go get the ball instead of sitting back on your heals and letting it play you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This cracks me up.. I'm glad you have all the stats up to date. ;)

Somewhere in a box around here, I still have pretty complete stats for every game I played between the ages of 6 & 10. I've also still got somewhere on this hard drive complete hitting stats for every player from the season of coach pitch I did.

[BishopMVP]

Actually, pitching a softball is MUCH less stressful on the arm than pitching a baseball. Underhand is a natural motion that doesn't stress the shoulder nearly as much as an overhand motion, which is an unnatural motion. Elite softball pitchers can pitch on a daily basis or sometimes even twice a day, whereas an elite baseball pitcher requires a longer recovery time.
UMass just lost to Washington in 15-innings in the 2nd game of the super regional doubleheader. UMass' pitcher threw 243 pitches, and UW's threw 251 in game 2 alone. Both pitchers had also thrown game 1 of the day, bringing the single-day totals to 358 and 399 pitches respectively. I wouldn't worry about blowing out a rotator cuff or anything.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

UMass just lost to Washington in 15-innings in the 2nd game of the super regional doubleheader. UMass' pitcher threw 243 pitches, and UW's threw 251 in game 2 alone. Both pitchers had also thrown game 1 of the day, bringing the single-day totals to 358 and 399 pitches respectively. I wouldn't worry about blowing out a rotator cuff or anything.

Yeah, that kind of thing is relatively common. If a softball pitcher injures themselves, it's usually an injured body trunk muscle or an ankle injury on the plant foot. Those two areas are more stressed than the shoulder. Shoulder injuries to pitchers in softball are pretty rare.

[hhiipp]

So the solution is if there is a runner on 3rd and the batter has a 3-0 or 3-1 count hit the batter to cause a deadball situation and said batter only gets one base.

[SackAttack]

(can't tell you how frustrating it is when you have a catcher who can't catch at the young ages)

You think it's frustrating? :)

Try umpiring three games in one day behind the plate during a summer tournament with kids young enough that the catcher can't catch.

Or worse, won't TRY to catch. The ones who try to make the play but can't, hey - they're kids. They'll get better. The ones who just sit there and wait for it to hit me or the backstop before they so much as bat an eyelash drive me up the wall.

[Barkeep49]

Yeah Sack I agree you've got it worse. I umpired as a teen (and will do so again if I can ever find time to take the test) and so I have a great deal of empathy for you.

[Ksyrup]

So the postscript to the weekend is that this wasn't as big an issue as we thought it might be, but the occasional girl who kept teasing down the line (or even off of 2nd) unnecessarily slowed the game down. But we got killed either way. First games at this level, so it was to be expected. Got to get them to catch up to the speed of the pitching, because we couldn't hit at all. Defense was probably better than expected. And of course, the pitching was rough. Ironically, the other teams saw so much fast pitching that our slowest pitcher had the most success all weekend. they kept getting out in front and popping up.

We've got about a month until the next tournament (which we'll be missing because of vacation) and a ton to work on. They still had fun, which is of course the most important thing. I don't remember having fun losing 15-0 and 20-1. I guess that's girls for you...!