Who's worse? Abortion doctor or abortion doctor killer?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I have my opinions, but I'm curious as to what others think of this situation.

[DaddyTorgo]

isnt' this a rather leading poll question - at least if you read beyond the first "." in each? I'm sure the abortion doctor wasn't performing late-term abortions.

[larrymcg421]

Not even close. The guy who killed the abortion doctor is way worse.

[Toddzilla]

This will not end well....

[larrymcg421]

isnt' this a rather leading poll question - at least if you read beyond the first "." in each? I'm sure the abortion doctor wasn't performing late-term abortions.

Actually, he was. He was one of the few abortion doctors that did this.

[RainMaker]

I'm against abortion (not legally but would never want someone to do it) but have to say the Pro-Life movement is hypocritical, self-serving, and just plain stupid.

[DaddyTorgo]

Actually, he was. He was one of the few abortion doctors that did this.

fair enough. i actually hadn't even informed myself about the story at all yet. i saw something on the news for 2.3 seconds but didn't read up on any of the particulars. just looked at the story on cnn and was coming here to say "whoops...guess i was wrong about that."

[DaddyTorgo]

that being said



His patients were "almost always in circumstances where something had gone horribly wrong with a pregnancy," and where a woman's health would be endangered if the pregnancy continued, Brownlie said

Kansas (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Kansas) law generally allows abortions even into the third trimester so long as the physician determines the fetus isn't viable. A doctor who makes such a determination after 21 weeks gestation must report the reasons why the determination was made.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

isnt' this a rather leading poll question - at least if you read beyond the first "." in each? I'm sure the abortion doctor wasn't performing late-term abortions.

This doctor did perform late-term abortions. He was one of the few in the nation, which is why he was targeted. The gist of the law is that you have to have health reasons to perform late-term abortions. The doctor used that law to say that anyone with physical OR mental health issues was eligible for late-term abortions. He's been charged with crimes several times over this interpretation of the law, though I'm not sure if they ever got a conviction on those charges.

[DaddyTorgo]

Not something I find particularly lovely - but I'm not a medical doctor - if the state allows it, he's acting within the scope of the law.

If he was convicted I presume they would have stripped his license so I'm guessing they weren't.

Like I said - not something I find lovely, or agree with, particularly if the interpertation was "stretched", but I don't believe vigilante justice has any place within modern society. Breaking the social contract and all that.

I hope they put a needle in this scumbag's arm.

[KWhit]

Are you fucking kidding me? Why the hell is this even a question?

[miked]

This doctor did perform late-term abortions. He was one of the few in the nation, which is why he was targeted. The gist of the law is that you have to have health reasons to perform late-term abortions. The doctor used that law to say that anyone with physical OR mental health issues was eligible for late-term abortions. He's been charged with crimes several times over this interpretation of the law, though I'm not sure if they ever got a conviction on those charges.

This poll is almost as retarded as you are.

Abortion doctor killer. No matter what the other guy was doing, you don't kill someone in that manner.

How about, regardless of the "manner", killing other humans is wrong. Does one have to be worse than the other? Did you need a poll to see which people agree with your personal feelings (which are fairly evident)? Can I see your statistics that say most of his abortions were borderline mental health of the moms? If he submits these reports to some agency, surely there must be some numbers (not pulled from the conservative blog of the day you are following) that say how many of these fetuses are viable (or terminal, such as Trisomy 18)...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Not something I find particularly lovely - but I'm not a medical doctor - if the state allows it, he's acting within the scope of the law.

I think that was the point of the charges. The law enforcement wasn't sure whether his interpretation was correct or even legal. I suppose it was as long as the charges didn't stick.

He wore a bulletproof vest a lot of times when he was in public and had been shot in the 90s. He certainly was aware of the danger involved.

[Logan]

Are you fucking kidding me? Why the hell is this even a question?

I was shocked too...until I saw who started it.

[jeff061]

It's irony on a base level. But you can get a hoot.

[JPhillips]

I think that was the point of the charges. The law enforcement wasn't sure whether his interpretation was correct or even legal. I suppose it was as long as the charges didn't stick.

He wore a bulletproof vest a lot of times when he was in public and had been shot in the 90s. He certainly was aware of the danger involved.

Good to know he didn't give in to the terrorists.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How about, regardless of the "manner", killing other humans is wrong. Does one have to be worse than the other? Did you need a poll to see which people agree with your personal feelings (which are fairly evident)?

So what are my personal feelings? Judging from this comment, I'm guessing you're incorrect, but as long as we're assuming what other people think...........

[KWhit]

I think that was the point of the charges. The law enforcement wasn't sure whether his interpretation was correct or even legal. I suppose it was as long as the charges didn't stick.

He wore a bulletproof vest a lot of times when he was in public and had been shot in the 90s. He certainly was aware of the danger involved.

One could look at this as an indication of his dedication to saving lives of pregnant women whose lives were in danger. And he was killed for it.

[KWhit]

So what are my personal feelings? Judging from this comment, I'm guessing you're incorrect, but as long as we're assuming what other people think...........

The fact that you even posted the question as you did proves that you're way off base in your thinking.

[Maple Leafs]

Could I just put in a request that everybody make sure this devolves into an entertaining flamewar, and no the predictable and painfully dumb one we usually have about this subject?

[RainMaker]

Most pro-life people, including this killer, don't care about saving babies. They care about telling other people what they can and can't do with themselves.

[Mustang]

What, no trout killer option?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What, no trout killer option?

Yeah, probably should have added a 'Trout? Where is Wichita, Kansas?' options. My apologies.

[samifan24]

This thread will not end well.

[Logan]

"Who's worse? Abortion doctor killer or MBBF?"

Makes about the same sense.

[DaddyTorgo]

in before the boxing/locking...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

"Who's worse? Abortion doctor killer or MBBF?"

Makes about the same sense.

You stay classy, NYC.

[Logan]

You stay classy, NYC.

"Makes about the same sense" wasn't enough of a qualifier?

[KWhit]

Could I just put in a request that everybody make sure this devolves into an entertaining flamewar, and no the predictable and painfully dumb one we usually have about this subject?

On short notice, but hopefully something like this fits the bill:


Mizzou doesn't want to be forgotten,
So his posts are especially rotten.
He's just a lame Sony fanboi,
Puffing his chest like a man-boy.
Who's worse? Mizzou or Osama Bin Laden?

[larrymcg421]

Who's worse? Abortion doctor killer or guy who makes Special Olympics jokes?

[Radii]

Could I just put in a request that everybody make sure this devolves into an entertaining flamewar, and no the predictable and painfully dumb one we usually have about this subject?

Sadly I predict nothing new in this thread. Though I expect the flamewar will just be people piling on MBBF until he declares that we're all misinterpreting him and disappears. Maybe an abortion flamewar picks up after that.

Though really I have to give MBBF credit here. Usually someone else starts a topic, there is some discussion and MBBF ruins the thread with some unbelievably asinine opinion/statement, or just as often, a set of "documented facts" that he refuses to link to anyone else, and some otherwise perfectly normal topic devolves into most people rolling their eyes and just backing away to watch the train wreck that follows MBBF everywhere he posts.

Here, we've reached a new level of efficiency, just skipping right over any semblance of normal discussion, just opening things up right there in the initial post/poll with something so fucking asinine that there's really no other reasonable response to this topic BUT to flame him. Well done. Bravo.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sadly I predict nothing new in this thread. Though I expect the flamewar will just be people piling on MBBF until he declares that we're all misinterpreting him and disappears. Maybe an abortion flamewar picks up after that.

Though really I have to give MBBF credit here. Usually someone else starts a topic, there is some discussion and MBBF ruins the thread with some unbelievably asinine opinion/statement, or just as often, a set of "documented facts" that he refuses to link to anyone else, and some otherwise perfectly normal topic devolves into most people rolling their eyes and just backing away to watch the train wreck that follows MBBF everywhere he posts.

Here, we've reached a new level of efficiency, just skipping right over any semblance of normal discussion, just opening things up right there in the initial post/poll with something so fucking asinine that there's really no other reasonable response to this topic BUT to flame him. Well done. Bravo.

So you voted for both?

[Noop]

The person who killed the doctor.

[KWhit]

Noop. The voice of reason.

[Noop]

Noop. The voice of reason.

Woah. Don't say that out loud I have a reputation I need to up hold.

[Sun Tzu]

EA trumps them all.

[Passacaglia]

I can't believe how stupid this poll is!!!!

Obviously it should have started with 'what better'

[Toddzilla]

Choice #4: The Asshat who started this thread.

[Oilers9911]

It's painfully obvious what the answer is. If the abortion doctor would have just had a price cut like everyone else none of this would have happened.

[Fidatelo]

I don't think we can accurately judge this without some kind of VORB analysis of the fetus' in question.

[RainMaker]

It is kind of a sad state that this is being celebrated at many right wing websites.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't think we can accurately judge this without some kind of VORB analysis of the fetus' in question.

HAHAHA...that took me a second, but good one!

It is kind of a sad state that this is being celebrated at many right wing websites.

Don't we have the Patriot Act for purposes like this - I mean this was an act of domestic terrorism (broadly construed) right? ;)

[Noop]

It is kind of a sad state that this is being celebrated at many right wing websites.

Did you expect anything different?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It is kind of a sad state that this is being celebrated at many right wing websites.

One person disagrees with you. I'd love to hear more from that person, but that may not happen.

[Big Fo]

I don't think we can accurately judge this without some kind of VORB analysis of the fetus' in question.

Brilliant.

[panerd]

One person disagrees with you. I'd love to hear more from that person, but that may not happen.

Actually they may be my joke response that I put thinking there would at least be a couple of people selecting option #1. And I wanted you to have more fodder to make some foolish claims about how America is about 50/50 on this issue. Any way I can change my vote?

[DeToxRox]

When abortions become illegal maybe it'll be a draw, but the guy is doing his job. This is an absurd question. Now maybe if you asked who's worse, a guy pushing heroin or the guy who killed the heroin pusher, then that is a different story since you know, both did something illegal.

Radical Christians are just as bad as Radical Muslims, but let's be honest, it isn't some widely held belief because one is perdominantly white.

[Noop]

:popcorn:

This is getting interesting.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

And I wanted you to have more fodder to make some foolish claims about how America is about 50/50 on this issue.

So you believe that I'd make that claim? Just curious.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

When abortions become illegal maybe it'll be a draw, but the guy is doing his job. This is an absurd question. Now maybe if you asked who's worse, a guy pushing heroin or the guy who killed the heroin pusher, then that is a different story since you know, both did something illegal.

Radical Christians are just as bad as Radical Muslims, but let's be honest, it isn't some widely held belief because one is perdominantly white.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.............

:popcorn:

[RainMaker]

The hardcore pro-lifers aren't really against abortion, they are just for being able to tell other people what to do.

The 50/50 thing is also a little tough to decipher. I mean I'm against abortion so if someone asked me if I'm pro-life, I'd say yes. But I'm not for making it illegal.

[DeToxRox]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.............

:popcorn:

Where are we getting?

A dude murdered someone. That = illegal.

A guy performs abortions. That is not illegal.

/thread iyam.

I just wanted to point out that the people like this nut job are terrorists as well, but no one seems to have the balls to refer to them as such and I can't figure out why.

[lungs]

The biggest disappointment is the thread title.

Who's worse?

It should read Who worse? or What worse?

[DaddyTorgo]

Where are we getting?

A dude murdered someone. That = illegal.

A guy performs abortions. That is not illegal.

/thread iyam.

I just wanted to point out that the people like this nut job are terrorists as well, but no one seems to have the balls to refer to them as such and I can't figure out why.


Ummm I did. And I insinuated that the full power of the Patriot Act ought to be brought against their sorry asses.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The hardcore pro-lifers aren't really against abortion, they are just for being able to tell other people what to do.

I can't see how anyone can say that. I think hardcore pro-lifers are deeply against it from a moral standpoint and believe it should be illegal. They also believe that it is their God-given duty to protect the life of a fetus. They're not doing it just for the sake of telling people what to do.

[Flasch186]

I believe the vote is outside of the range to be misinterpreted when using terms like "Vast Majority"....but who knows...."They're" is getting abused in this thread.

[TCY Junkie]

The hardcore pro-lifers aren't really against abortion, they are just for being able to tell other people what to do.



This is wrong, just as much as dropping babies off roofs for science to see how they splattered would be.

[Noop]

I can't see how anyone can say that. I think hardcore pro-lifers are deeply against it from a moral standpoint and believe it should be illegal. They also believe that it is their God-given duty to protect the life of a fetus. They're not doing it just for the sake of telling people what to do.

There's rub... that belief is responsible for a lot of things (some good some bad) in this country.

Why can't people mind their own business? Because God said they shouldn't...

[KWhit]

I want to see a three-way flamewar starring MBBF, Noop, and TCY Junkie. Maybe even throw in JBMagic for kicks.

That would create some epic posts, I'm sure. Incomprehensible, but epic.

[Schmidty]

I'm not going to read this thread, but I will say this: I am very much pro-life, but murdering someone is obviously very wrong, and does nothing to help the cause.

[Noop]

I want to see a three-way flamewar starring MBBF, Noop, and TCY Junkie. Maybe even throw in JBMagic for kicks.

That would create some epic posts, I'm sure. Incomprehensible, but epic.

Meh.

[KWhit]

There's rub... that belief is responsible for a lot of things (some good some bad) in this country.

Why can't people mind their own business? Because God said they shouldn't...

Damn Noop. You're making too much sense in this thread. Go back to the dog-killer thread type of posts. That will help make my previous post make much more sense.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Damn Noop. You're making too much sense in this thread. Go back to the dog-killer thread type of posts. That will help make my previous post make much more sense.

Then you'll be even more disappointed to find that I agree with him.

[Flasch186]

if that's the case, than this thread should shine a big giant spotlight on how much damage you've done to your own credibility and voice over the past X amount of months/years at least in this FOFC world. Perhaps you can comment on that?

[revrew]

I gotta admit I am personally offended by some of the posts in this thread, which frankly I would classify as outright bigotry, or at very least flaming prejudice.

For the record:
1. I am an extremist Christian
2. I am a hard-core pro-lifer, who believes abortion, while legal, is murder
3. Heck, I'm even a writer on one of those "crazy right-wing" websites

Now, that said, I care about the lives of babies. Not controlling people. That assertion is not only incorrect, it's wrong. I also care about the mothers, for that matter, so don't even go there.

As for this particular case, who is "worse" or "better" is kind of a strange construction. As an extremist Christian, I believe we are all fallen people whose lives and "sins" lead to death each and every day, so I don't like to say some people are "worse" than others.

But in this case, one man murdered within the law. One man murdered outside the law. The latter was also guilty of taking vengeance into his own hands, a practice forbidden by biblical principle. I believe Tiller was a wicked man. But if we're determining "worse" by who commits the most sins, you gotta go with the shooter.

Regardless of who is "worse," I do not celebrate Tiller's murder. I would have celebrated his repentance, I would have celebrated his retirement, I would have celebrated his reconciliation with God. Murder, however, cannot be celebrated.

I contend that if it is bigotry at least prejudice to say, "Mexicans are usually lazy; Blacks are usually gangsters; watch out for gays, you never know which are pedophiles" and so forth (and I would say it is), then it is equally bigotry to say "Pro-lifers don't care about babies; they celebrate killing abortion doctors". And I condemn such statements as nothing less than hate speech.

[DeToxRox]

Ummm I did. And I insinuated that the full power of the Patriot Act ought to be brought against their sorry asses.

I meant more so in the Media. I agree with what you said 100%.

[DaddyTorgo]

I contend that if it is bigotry at least prejudice to say, "Mexicans are usually lazy; Blacks are usually gangsters; watch out for gays, you never know which are pedophiles" and so forth (and I would say it is), then it is equally bigotry to say "Pro-lifers don't care about babies; they celebrate killing abortion doctors"

Hmm...I think I might just agree with you.

And I appreciate the other point of view that you bring to this thread, and your well-reasoned, coherently-expressed beliefs that are entirely rational on the situation (well except for the whole religious part which of course I respectfully disagree with).

[Noop]

Now, that said, I care about the lives of babies. Not controlling people. That assertion is not only incorrect, it's wrong. I also care about the mothers, for that matter, so don't even go there.

You care but I can't say for certain the rest who carry the same banner as you do.

As for this particular case, who is "worse" or "better" is kind of a strange construction. As an extremist Christian, I believe we are all fallen people whose lives and "sins" lead to death each and every day, so I don't like to say some people are "worse" than others.

There goes those beliefs again.

[larrymcg421]

What's funniest about this thread is that MBBF has been waiting all this time to give us this big surprise revelation that he doesn't think murdering abortion doctors is okay, as if it somehow makes him this totally reasonable guy and we misjudged him all along.

[Galaxy]

Isn't this thread just trolling and baiting?

[Drake]

I'm going to call it a push and grieve for the mistakes both of these men committed and the lives they negatively impacted.

[Tekneek]

terrorism - the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

[Lathum]

I'm going to call it a push and grieve for the mistakes both of these men committed and the lives they negatively impacted.

Awesome!

So if I am anti- death penalty I can go around shooting jurors who condemn people to it. :thumbsup:

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What's funniest about this thread is that MBBF has been waiting all this time to give us this big surprise revelation that he doesn't think murdering abortion doctors is okay, as if it somehow makes him this totally reasonable guy and we misjudged him all along.

Uh, what? You give me far too much credit.

[Tekneek]

I'm going to call it a push and grieve for the mistakes both of these men committed and the lives they negatively impacted.

Are you certain that every abortion was a negative impact on a life? I'm not convinced you have access to the medical records to make that determination.

[Galaxy]

I eat trout that's been killed. Does that make me a bad person?

[Tekneek]

I eat trout that's been killed. Does that make me a bad person?

Yes.

[TCY Junkie]

Awesome!

So if I am anti- death penalty I can go around shooting jurors who condemn people to it. :thumbsup:

Sure, you won't have to worry about being executed that way. Good plan.

[remper]

I mean I'm against abortion so if someone asked me if I'm pro-life, I'd say yes. But I'm not for making it illegal.

Then you're pro-choice... You want people to be able to choose, even if you don't necessarily agree. I'm in the same camp I guess. In many cases I might not agree with the motives for having the abortion, but it's none of my damn business. That's the problem with arguing apples vs. oranges like the debate about abortion does.

[larrymcg421]

I'm pro-life, but I'm pro-the whole life. My distaste for much of the pro-life movement is they seem to care more about unborn children than they do about children who have already been born.

[Noop]

I'm pro-life, but I'm pro-the whole life. My distaste for much of the pro-life movement is they seem to care more about unborn children than they do about children who have already been born.

+1

I wanted to say that earlier but I was sure it would have started a flame war.

[Tekneek]

I'm pro-life, but I'm pro-the whole life. My distaste for much of the pro-life movement is they seem to care more about unborn children than they do about children who have already been born.

Against the death penalty, and anti-war as well, I presume?

[larrymcg421]

Against the death penalty, and anti-war as well, I presume?

Yes.

[Passacaglia]

Against the death penalty, and anti-war as well, I presume?

Is there something wrong with that?

[Schmidty]

Against the death penalty, and anti-war as well, I presume?

That's me.

Pro-life. I hate the death penalty. War only when absolutely necessary.

[Lathum]

That's me.

Pro-life. I hate the death penalty. War only when absolutely necessary.

Aren't you religous?

Whatever happened to eye for an eye?

[Tekneek]

Is there something wrong with that?

Nothing, IMO. It is a view I happen to share. We may not agree on how the government gets involved in this, but in general it is a personal philosophy that makes sense to me.

[Schmidty]

Aren't you religous?

Whatever happened to eye for an eye?

I believe that everyone is redeemable. But even aside from that, I don't believe that the government should have that much power over life and death. If one person out of million dies unjustly because of the system, the system is broken. Just my opinion.

Now I'm going to try to leave the thread. :)

[larrymcg421]

I am, however, pro-embryonic stem cell research.

[RainMaker]

I can't see how anyone can say that. I think hardcore pro-lifers are deeply against it from a moral standpoint and believe it should be illegal. They also believe that it is their God-given duty to protect the life of a fetus. They're not doing it just for the sake of telling people what to do.

I gotta admit I am personally offended by some of the posts in this thread, which frankly I would classify as outright bigotry, or at very least flaming prejudice.

For the record:
1. I am an extremist Christian
2. I am a hard-core pro-lifer, who believes abortion, while legal, is murder
3. Heck, I'm even a writer on one of those "crazy right-wing" websites

Now, that said, I care about the lives of babies. Not controlling people. That assertion is not only incorrect, it's wrong. I also care about the mothers, for that matter, so don't even go there.
Here's my problem with a lot of people in the pro-life movement. It seems they are more concerned about bitching about abortions, holding protests that won't change anything, and picking fights than with actually lowering the amount of abortions in this country.

- The people against abortion are also people who are against contraceptives. They fight against the handing out of condoms in school and teaching teenagers how to protect themselves. These alone would drastically cut down on the number of abortions every year. None of the major pro-life organizations discuss contraceptives and a few even say not to take them.

- The people behind the pro-life movement are rarely involved in adoption, health care, or child care organizations. Sure they list a number on their website, but most of their energy is put into lobbying, fliers, commercials, etc. They aren't funneling their money to adoption organizations en masse. They aren't putting together programs to raise money for poor mothers. They aren't offering to pay their medical bills. They aren't offering them child care services.

- The pro-life movement is on the same side of the aisle that is against nationalizing healthcare and providing all kids in our country with it. It just seems ridiculous to be so concerned about an unborn child but not give a shit what happens to it once it's born.

Take the Notre Dame issue for example. These idiots thought it was more important to run around on a college campus with signs than actually cutting down on abortions. Why didn't they spend their time working at a free child care clinic? Why not work to raise money to help single mothers with medical bills? Why not devote your time and energy to passing out condoms in poor communities where abortions are prevelant? Those are all things that will lower the number of abortions in this country. If they truly care about the amount of unborn babies being killed, they would do things like that.

That is my point. None of these groups are working at cutting back the number of abortions in this country. In fact, their stance on issues like contraceptives is actually causing more abortions. Like I said, they care more about telling people what they can and can't do than with actually cutting back on the number of abortions. I dont' know how you could argue that.

[Schmidty]

Here's my problem with a lot of people in the pro-life movement. It seems they are more concerned about bitching about abortions, holding protests that won't change anything, and picking fights than with actually lowering the amount of abortions in this country.

- The people against abortion are also people who are against contraceptives. They fight against the handing out of condoms in school and teaching teenagers how to protect themselves. These alone would drastically cut down on the number of abortions every year. None of the major pro-life organizations discuss contraceptives and a few even say not to take them.

- The people behind the pro-life movement are rarely involved in adoption, health care, or child care organizations. Sure they list a number on their website, but most of their energy is put into lobbying, fliers, commercials, etc. They aren't funneling their money to adoption organizations en masse. They aren't putting together programs to raise money for poor mothers. They aren't offering to pay their medical bills. They aren't offering them child care services.

- The pro-life movement is on the same side of the aisle that is against nationalizing healthcare and providing all kids in our country with it. It just seems ridiculous to be so concerned about an unborn child but not give a shit what happens to it once it's born.

Take the Notre Dame issue for example. These idiots thought it was more important to run around on a college campus with signs than actually cutting down on abortions. Why didn't they spend their time working at a free child care clinic? Why not work to raise money to help single mothers with medical bills? Why not devote your time and energy to passing out condoms in poor communities where abortions are prevelant? Those are all things that will lower the number of abortions in this country. If they truly care about the amount of unborn babies being killed, they would do things like that.

That is my point. None of these groups are working at cutting back the number of abortions in this country. In fact, their stance on issues like contraceptives is actually causing more abortions. Like I said, they care more about telling people what they can and can't do than with actually cutting back on the number of abortions. I dont' know how you could argue that.

There are so many incorrect generalizations in your post, that I don't even know where to start. I will say this - "The people against abortion" as you put it, aren't all the same in their overall beliefs, and saying so is ignorant.

[RedKingGold]

There are so many incorrect generalizations in every single post Rainmaker makes or has ever made at FOFC, that I don't even know where to start.

Fixed.

[DanGarion]

Most pro-life people, including this killer, don't care about saving babies. They care about telling other people what they can and can't do with themselves.

DING.

I have to admit I'm surprised of the poll findings considering the audience, but it's nice to see people can think.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I have to admit I'm surprised of the poll findings considering the audience, but it's nice to see people can think.

I'd agree with you. Everyone acts as if the poll results were a foregone conclusion, but I'm relatively impressed with the response overall.

[molson]

Aren't you religous?

Whatever happened to eye for an eye?

I'm not religious, but I think this bible quote is always misunderstood.

Didn't Jesus shoot down the whole eye for an eye deal?

[Schmidty]

DING.

I can't believe you agree with his statement. You must not know too many pro-lifers. You just watch the news where the loudest wackos and killers overshadow the vast majority of pro-lifers who, I guarantee actually do care about saving babies.

I'm disgusted right now. Generalizations like yours are more ignorant than the people you're indicting.

I better leave the thread before I turn into the old angry Schmidty again. :)

[CU Tiger]

Who more deserving: Abortion Doctor or Mentally Challenged teen who runs from Cops?

[DanGarion]

I'm not religious, but I think this bible quote is always misunderstood.

Didn't Jesus shoot down the whole eye for an eye deal?

Isn't every bible quote misunderstood?

[TCY Junkie]

I'd agree with you. Everyone acts as if the poll results were a foregone conclusion, but I'm relatively impressed with the response overall.

I think the poll sucked so I didn't vote and people that think they are above you, if they post above you or not, also suck.

[molson]

Isn't every bible quote misunderstood?

Probably, but that one's the most blatant I'm aware of.

People say, "the bible says an eye for an eye", when I'm pretty sure Jesus actually said the oppositte, something like, "you have heard 'eye for eye', but I tell you today, turn the other cheek" (or something).

[RainMaker]

There are so many incorrect generalizations in your post, that I don't even know where to start. I will say this - "The people against abortion" as you put it, aren't all the same in their overall beliefs, and saying so is ignorant.
Like what? Go to the major pro-life websites. Almost all of them follow exactly what I wrote. I'm not saying that every person who is pro-life is like that, but the overall movement is (or the message they are getting out).

As I said, I'm pro-life. I think abortions are a cowards way out of something. It's also why I'm for sex education and helping people get contraceptives. You will find that most pro-life organizations are against that.

Pro-Life groups are almost unanimously against the morning after pill which DRASTICALLY REDUCES THE NUMBER OF ABORTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

[stevew]

I think god will put both of them in hell, fwiw.

Regardless you don't shoot someone in cold blood.

[RainMaker]

I can't believe you agree with his statement. You must not know too many pro-lifers. You just watch the news where the loudest wackos and killers overshadow the vast majority of pro-lifers who, I guarantee actually do care about saving babies.

I'm disgusted right now. Generalizations like yours are more ignorant than the people you're indicting.

I better leave the thread before I turn into the old angry Schmidty again. :)

I'm talking about the pro-life movement. Not the average Joe who is sitting in his living room and just has an opinion on abortion. I am for gay marriage but I don't consider myself part of the gay rights movement. I am talking about the people who are actively participating in the abortion issue.

[DanGarion]

I can't believe you agree with his statement. You must not know too many pro-lifers. You just watch the news where the loudest wackos and killers overshadow the vast majority of pro-lifers who, I guarantee actually do care about saving babies.

I'm disgusted right now. Generalizations like yours are more ignorant than the people you're indicting.

I better leave the thread before I turn into the old angry Schmidty again. :)
I guess the problem I have lately is that I pass by planned parenthood every morning and on certain days and certain times their are pro-lifers. Sometimes they are kneeling at praying towards the building, sometimes they are holding signs, and sometimes there isn't anyone there. it just seems to me that the vocal portion of the pro-life side has chosen to judge those that go to PP by what I see. The vocal pro-lifers aren't much better then then PETA, they use the same type of tactics...

[sabotai]

I'm not religious, but I think this bible quote is always misunderstood.

Didn't Jesus shoot down the whole eye for an eye deal?

Yes, "eye for an eye" is from the Old Testament, and as far as I know, while the OT is part of The Bible, it's not necessarily followed when the New Testament "updates and revises" it. Aside from the "turn the other cheek" line, there is also an often quoted line in the Death Penalty debate from I think the New Testament (can't remember what book it's from) where God says something like "You just live good lives and spread the Word, and leave the judging and punishing to me. And BTW, Legalize It."

I think that last part might have gotten lost in the translation to English....

[sabotai]

dola,

Looked it up. It's from Romans 12:17-21

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[revrew]

Like what? Go to the major pro-life websites. Almost all of them follow exactly what I wrote. I'm not saying that every person who is pro-life is like that, but the overall movement is (or the message they are getting out).

As I said, I'm pro-life. I think abortions are a cowards way out of something. It's also why I'm for sex education and helping people get contraceptives. You will find that most pro-life organizations are against that.

Pro-Life groups are almost unanimously against the morning after pill which DRASTICALLY REDUCES THE NUMBER OF ABORTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

Dude...I mean seriously. If yer gonna talk about the pro-life movement, then you probably ought to do some research. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to morning after pill is because it's abortificient. It doesn't REDUCE abortions, it's one form OF abortion, (or at least, that's the argument that is made by many pro-lifers.)

And I agree with the criticism of your previous post, as gross overgeneralizations, but I don't need to add to that criticism any further.

[RainMaker]

Dude...I mean seriously. If yer gonna talk about the pro-life movement, then you probably ought to do some research. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to morning after pill is because it's abortificient. It doesn't REDUCE abortions, it's one form OF abortion, (or at least, that's the argument that is made by many pro-lifers.)

And I agree with the criticism of your previous post, as gross overgeneralizations, but I don't need to add to that criticism any further.

But it isn't abortificient. It doesn't prevent implantation, it just prevents ovulation. The argument used by pro-lifers is outdated and goes against what all the recent scientific research has shown.

And even if it was abortificient (which it isn't), it would still dramatically lower the number of abortions as those instances where implantation has occured are extremely minor.

If you truly hate abortions, why the hell would you be against a contraceptive that would prevent unwanted pregnancies?

[path12]

I don't doubt there are overgeneralizations on both sides, but as long as legal providers are subjected to the sorts of tactics described here (http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/06/operation-rescue.html) I think it does your cause great harm.

[Tekneek]

I don't doubt there are overgeneralizations on both sides, but as long as legal providers are subjected to the sorts of tactics described here (http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/06/operation-rescue.html) I think it does your cause great harm.

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.

[dawgfan]

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.

QFT

[Pumpy Tudors]

This thread has inspired me to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater.

[RainMaker]

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.
Operation Rescue is another one against abortions but also against contraceptives which lower the number of abortions.

[Klinglerware]

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.

Well, we can't have Sarah Palin palling around with domestic terrorists, now can we?

[miked]

Dude...I mean seriously. If yer gonna talk about the pro-life movement, then you probably ought to do some research. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to morning after pill is because it's abortificient. It doesn't REDUCE abortions, it's one form OF abortion, (or at least, that's the argument that is made by many pro-lifers.)

And I agree with the criticism of your previous post, as gross overgeneralizations, but I don't need to add to that criticism any further.

I could be wrong, but the reason the morning after pill (Plan B, not RU486) is effective is because it prevents ovulation. The high doses of estrogen trick the body into thinking ovulation has already occurred. It's the exact same thing as taking 3 doses of a birth control pill. Sperm can live for 3-5 days, thus even if the woman hasn't ovulated yet, she still may become pregnant, which is why they take the pill, to prevent ovulation from even occurring. There are other pills that prevent fertilization/implantation, but the "morning after pill" that people want to make OTC is just a high dose of birth control pills.

[RainMaker]

I could be wrong, but the reason the morning after pill (Plan B, not RU486) is effective is because it prevents ovulation. The high doses of estrogen trick the body into thinking ovulation has already occurred. It's the exact same thing as taking 3 doses of a birth control pill. Sperm can live for 3-5 days, thus even if the woman hasn't ovulated yet, she still may become pregnant, which is why they take the pill, to prevent ovulation from even occurring. There are other pills that prevent fertilization/implantation, but the "morning after pill" that people want to make OTC is just a high dose of birth control pills.

Exactly. There were some studies from the 70's and 80's that stated it could prevent implantation, but those have been debunked in recent years by extensive studies on its effects.

[kcchief19]

I think that was the point of the charges. The law enforcement wasn't sure whether his interpretation was correct or even legal. I suppose it was as long as the charges didn't stick.
Kansas law stipulated that a second doctor with no financial ties whatsoever to to the doctor performing the late term abortion agree that the fetus was not viable. The former state attorney general claimed that Tiller did have ties to the doctors who were stipulating the fetus was not viable. It was designed to be a catch-22 for Tiller -- the second doctor would obvious want to be paid for the consult, so if Tiller paid for the consult it was against the law and if the patient paid then the prosecutor claimed that the second doctor was profitting from Tiller's recommendation, therefore a financial tie.

I won't make Tiller into a saint because I don't think that's appropriate and that's certainly not what he did what he did. But he was one of a handful of doctors who was willing to put his life on the line when it came to helping patients who had a pregnancy where the mother's life was in danger due to unviable fetus or a fetus was going to be born with such massive defects that it would be inhumane to put any person through the terror of living. It was a horrible job and he did it because nobody else would.

Going after Tiller has to be the life's mission of Fred Phelps. The enemy of Fred Phelps is a friend to most of us.

We'll find out more about Scott Roeder. The early word I've been hearing is that he is an anti-government, anti-tax protester with ties to militia groups advocating overthrowing the government.

I assume the eye-for-eye crowd will be glad to know that Kansas is a death penalty state and he's going to end up on death row unless he can whip out an insanity defense.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I won't make Tiller into a saint because I don't think that's appropriate and that's certainly not what he did what he did. But he was one of a handful of doctors who was willing to put his life on the line when it came to helping patients who had a pregnancy where the mother's life was in danger due to unviable fetus or a fetus was going to be born with such massive defects that it would be inhumane to put any person through the terror of living. It was a horrible job and he did it because nobody else would.

Going after Tiller has to be the life's mission of Fred Phelps. The enemy of Fred Phelps is a friend to most of us.

We'll find out more about Scott Roeder. The early word I've been hearing is that he is an anti-government, anti-tax protester with ties to militia groups advocating overthrowing the government.

I assume the eye-for-eye crowd will be glad to know that Kansas is a death penalty state and he's going to end up on death row unless he can whip out an insanity defense.

FWIW.......I don't presume to be able to judge these type of situations. I'm glad I've never had to make that kind of a decision as a parent, regardless of legality or morality.

[mh2365]

Most pro-life people, including this killer, don't care about saving babies. They care about telling other people what they can and can't do with themselves.

ding ding ding we have a winner

[Groundhog]

At least 86% of us here at FOFC aren't out of their god damned minds.

[jeff061]

I don't know. I'm part of that 86%. But I am kind of out of my god damned mind :(.

[DanGarion]

It's gods will if you have a kid, it's gods will if having a kid kills you, but god forbid you get sick because then you can use all the science you want to fight it...

[sterlingice]

Probably, but that one's the most blatant I'm aware of.

People say, "the bible says an eye for an eye", when I'm pretty sure Jesus actually said the oppositte, something like, "you have heard 'eye for eye', but I tell you today, turn the other cheek" (or something).

Even wiki has it cited (from NewRSV) on a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_for_an_eye#Lex_talionis_in_Christianity) about "eye for an eye":


You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38–39, NRSV)

So, yeah, like a lot of OT stuff, Jesus has a new take on the old message.

SI

[Axxon]

That assertion is not only incorrect, it's wrong.

Sincerely, thsnk you for this. Not a commentary on the issue or your point, but I really like this. :)

[Tekneek]

It's gods will if you have a kid, it's gods will if having a kid kills you, but god forbid you get sick because then you can use all the science you want to fight it...

Indeed. If God wanted you to fall out of a tree and break your leg, learn to live with that broken leg. Getting it fixed is in direct defiance of what God wanted for you.

[molson]

Indeed. If God wanted you to fall out of a tree and break your leg, learn to live with that broken leg. Getting it fixed is in direct defiance of what God wanted for you.

Again, you're just taking one, very specific definition of God and using it too broadly. You're assuming a God that exerts control over every little thing that ever happens. I don't think even Christianity goes that far.

[Tekneek]

Again, you're just taking one, very specific definition of God and using it too broadly. You're assuming a God that exerts control over every little thing that ever happens. I don't think even Christianity goes that far.

I was intentionally being absurd about it. I would hope that "God" would prefer someone abort a baby that would be very likely to suffer and die in short order if carried to term. I fail to see how it can be "God's will" for a baby to go through that, but not things like breaking your arm/leg, getting sick, etc.

[Arles]

I can't believe this is really a thread and on its third page ;)

[Fighter of Foo]

This message is hidden because Mizzou B-ball fan is on your ignore list (http://operationsports.com/fofc/profile.php?do=editlist).

Threads work much better this way.

[Radii]

Threads work much better this way.

I agree, but then, if you're a sucker like me, you see the thread title and say to yourself "WHAT THE FUCK" and click on the "read post" button, bypassing all the safeguards you set up to avoid this stupidity. Its a personal problem really.

[Fidatelo]

Threads work much better this way.

I tried that once, but found that since he dominates the conversation in the threads he participates in, the point became moot. Either half of his posts were quoted anyways, or I found pages of reading incomprehensible as people addressed items I hadn't seen.

[DanGarion]

Wow this guy was so terrible.... I mean he was saving lives, how dare he...

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/02/online-personal-narr.html

Salon's Kate Harding has collected a number of first-person accounts from women (and families) who were patients of the recently murdered Dr. George Tiller. As I understand it, he was one of only three providers of late-term abortions in the USA, and widely considered the most expert practitioner in this extremely controversial area of health care. Snip:

Susan Hill, President of the National Women's Health Foundation, who knew Dr. Tiller for over two decades and referred girls and women to his clinic, said in a phone interview, "We always sent the really tragic cases to Tiller." Those included women diagnosed with cancer who needed abortions to qualify for chemotherapy, women who learned late in their pregnancies that their wanted babies had fatal illnesses, and rape victims so young they didn't realize they were pregnant for months. "We sent him 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds who were way too far along for anybody [else] to see," said Hill. "Eleven-year-olds don't tell anybody. Sometimes they don't even know they've had a period."

Since the news of Dr. Tiller's murder broke, personal narratives from people who used his services have been appearing around the Web. A commenter at the blog Balloon Juice told the story of finding out in the eighth month of his wife's pregnancy that she was carrying conjoined twins. "Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants." They chose to terminate the much-wanted pregnancy, rather than bring a child into the world only to suffer and die. "The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff."

[SFL Cat]

I think there is an equivalency between the two.

[Subby]

Threads work much better this way.
I finally caved and added him a few others today.

[flere-imsaho]

As I understand it, he was one of only three providers of late-term abortions in the USA

Kind of puts some context around some claims we see from extreme pro-lifers that late-term abortions are "happening all the time".

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Kind of puts some context around some claims we see from extreme pro-lifers that late-term abortions are "happening all the time".

There's both sides of the argument on the extreme ends. Most are best off not bothering to listen to them.

[lordscarlet]

One of my Mother-In-Laws coworkers has to perform a late term abortion. The option is that or birth a child that is guaranteed to die within a day or two of birth.

[flere-imsaho]

Everything I felt I needed to say about abortion I said here (http://osatwork.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1860337#post1860337).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

One of my Mother-In-Laws coworkers has to perform a late term abortion. The option is that or birth a child that is guaranteed to die within a day or two of birth.

Which of course, would be countered by the pro-life person who points out the one instance where a baby who was expected to die in a day or two lived 4-5 years. It's endless as I'm sure you're fully aware.

[lordscarlet]

Which of course, would be countered by the pro-life person who points out the one instance where a baby who was expected to die in a day or two lived 4-5 years. It's endless as I'm sure you're fully aware.

Oh, quite so. And she of course doesn't "have" to do a late term abortion. As someone that doesn't necessarily believe in a "soul" (I just don't know either way), I don't see any value of life to a human that would max out at 4-5 years of what would likely be a subpar life due to whatever condition they have.

[RainMaker]

Which of course, would be countered by the pro-life person who points out the one instance where a baby who was expected to die in a day or two lived 4-5 years. It's endless as I'm sure you're fully aware.
And those people making that argument don't really give a shit about the child or it's quality of life. It's why with all the money going into the pro-life movement, so little of it goes to help people like that get the best medical care.

[JPhillips]

Roeder found guilty on all counts. Hard to come to any other decision after he confessed on the stand.

[DaddyTorgo]

Roeder found guilty on all counts. Hard to come to any other decision after he confessed on the stand.

good

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Roeder found guilty on all counts. Hard to come to any other decision after he confessed on the stand.

Wow, guess the defense didn't have many witnesses this morning. Verdict wasn't expected until Monday when I listened to the news this morning.

[Calis]

Yeah there wasn't much reason for the defense to do anything after he testified and the Judge said no to their absurd plea for manslaughter to be possible instead.

Was a surreal trial from the start. Glad it ended the correct way.

[Lathum]

I wonder how Tim Tebow feels about this thread.

[molson]

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)

[DaddyTorgo]

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)

fortunately you weren't the judge!

[jeff061]

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)


Seems to me nearly all premeditated murders fall under this.

[Calis]

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)

Is that verbatim? Everything I've seen is that "the person must be stopping the imminent use of unlawful force." This was the exact reasoning the Judge gave for not allowing the defense, because Tiller wasn't performing an unlawful act regardless of a person's stance on the issue.

The definition the Judge give certainly makes a lot more sense and seems more applicable than the one you mentioned, as there is seldom(ever?) a murder case where that wouldn't be valid.

[larrymcg421]

Not really verbatim. Molson left out a bit at the end.

Under voluntary manslaughter it says this:

(b) upon an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force under K.S.A. 21-3211, 21-3212 or 21-3213 and amendments thereto.


And if we go to 21-3211:

21-3211. Use of force in defense of a person; no duty to retreat.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force.

[RendeR]

Not really verbatim. Molson left out a bit at the end.

Under voluntary manslaughter it says this:

(b) upon an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force under K.S.A. 21-3211, 21-3212 or 21-3213 and amendments thereto.


And if we go to 21-3211:

21-3211. Use of force in defense of a person; no duty to retreat.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force.


So yes, the very idea that they wanted it dropped to manslaughter was fucking absurd.

Can't wait for this guy to buy it. Glad to see the jury wasn't insane.

[molson]

Not really verbatim. Molson left out a bit at the end.

Under voluntary manslaughter it says this:

(b) upon an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force under K.S.A. 21-3211, 21-3212 or 21-3213 and amendments thereto.


And if we go to 21-3211:

21-3211. Use of force in defense of a person; no duty to retreat.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent it appears to such person and such person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to defend such person or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force.

I just cut and pasted a line from CNN and didn't look at the source statute, but yes, good call, there's no way he can argue that he had honest belief that the doctor was doing anything unlawful. It goes to show how ignorant mainstream news media sources are about the law.