The Perpetual Tennis Grand Slams Thread

[Young Drachma]

I didn't see one talking about Wimbledon for whatever reason. Figured a grand slam thread we can continue to dredge up might be better sorta like the omnibus golf thread.

Williams v. Williams again in a Grand Slam and it's astounding to me that they've managed to pretty much outlive the careers of almost anyone that came into the game with them a decade or so ago.

Hoping for an epic final, though Venus is playing like gangbusters to get here.

Meanwhile, Roger Federer aims for his record breaking 15th grand slam title against the surprising Andy Roddick who he's 18-2 against head to head.

We expecting any surprises?

[k0ruptr]

Roddick with a Major upset. and I think Venus gets it again, but either sister could take it.

[MIJB#19]

Williams v. Williams again in a Grand Slam and it's astounding to me that they've managed to pretty much outlive the careers of almost anyone that came into the game with them a decade or so ago.Maybe they're better at spreading their energy over the course of the season? They don't seem to play a lot of tournaments compared to the rest of the top10 players. Which is somewhat surprising, given how much time the top WTA players spend on modeling gigs, cocktail parties and planning their marriages. Or maybe it's their ability to focus even better for the big events (aside from the French Open)?

[kcchief19]

I don't completely understand why the accomplishments of the Williams sisters are so underrated. This was the 10th time they've met in a grand slam final. Serena now has 11 and Venus 7. If there were only one Williams sister playing, it would be completely reasonable that one of them would have 13-15 grand slams and in a position to be considered the best players ever.

The funny thing is they are very different players. Venus just doesn't match up well with Serena and I don't think it's entirely mental. When Serena is in decent shape, healthy and focused, I think she's the best player in the world. If she focused 100% on tennis and less on her hobbies and side businesses, I think she'd be spoken of in the same breath with Martina, Chris and Steffi.

She's just 27 and she can win more. Can she get to Steffi's 22? Steffi only won one title after the age Serena is now. Serena has potential to win a few more but I don't think she has 11 more in here.

Venus still making finals at 29 is also impressive. The ability of both sisters to keep playing at this level close to 30 puts them in the Martina/Evert category.

[Young Drachma]

I don't completely understand why the accomplishments of the Williams sisters are so underrated. This was the 10th time they've met in a grand slam final. Serena now has 11 and Venus 7. If there were only one Williams sister playing, it would be completely reasonable that one of them would have 13-15 grand slams and in a position to be considered the best players ever.

The funny thing is they are very different players. Venus just doesn't match up well with Serena and I don't think it's entirely mental. When Serena is in decent shape, healthy and focused, I think she's the best player in the world. If she focused 100% on tennis and less on her hobbies and side businesses, I think she'd be spoken of in the same breath with Martina, Chris and Steffi.

She's just 27 and she can win more. Can she get to Steffi's 22? Steffi only won one title after the age Serena is now. Serena has potential to win a few more but I don't think she has 11 more in here.

Venus still making finals at 29 is also impressive. The ability of both sisters to keep playing at this level close to 30 puts them in the Martina/Evert category.

I don't think either of these women care about being named the best of all time.

But if my brother and I were dominating an entire sport for what amounts to a decade, even when we didn't have our best stuff, I'd probably be far more interested in other stuff, too.

Plus, tennis was a vehicle for a life that these women would otherwise have not been afforded. To them, what they do on the court is work of the first order and they do that better than almost anyone else who's stepped out there, especially considering they've had to play each other a lot of the time, which I doubt most people would have less than a fun time of doing.

But people on forums, comments and such alike, just exact all sorts of criticism about their 'commitment' to tennis, as if they owe the sport anything. Meh. They're doing pretty damn good with what they've managed to do and I imagine they'll claim another women's doubles title later today, as well.

[Big Fo]

I would love to see Roddick pull off the upset tomorrow but I think he'll lose in straight sets.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't completely understand why the accomplishments of the Williams sisters are so underrated.

I'd say it probably has something to do with them being two of the most completely unlikable bitches in pro sports history.

I think people the public finds likable generally tend to be rated higher than those they find unlikable or even uninteresting.

edit to add: And no sexism complaints about the use of the word "bitches". I had Sidney Crosby in mind when I chose that word.

[digamma]

I think it's been great to watch Venus and Serena grow from naive, immature, yet uber-talented young players, to crafty, more polished women. I get that they may have been unlikable at the outset of their careers (I think in large part due to their father), but as they've gotten older, I've become a genuine fan of theirs.

When you think about it, it's an amazing story. Two sisters grow up in Compton, hitting with each other on beat up tennis courts and coached by a guy who doesn't know a ton about tennis, grow up to be at the top of the game for a solid decade.

[digamma]

Oh, and on kc's point, I think part of it may be that they have been up and down in a sense. Injuries, lack of interest, whatever, their dominance hasn't been sustained. You've had your Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, etc. who have been at the top at various times since 2000 or so.

[kcchief19]

I'd say it probably has something to do with them being two of the most completely unlikable bitches in pro sports history.

I think people the public finds likable generally tend to be rated higher than those they find unlikable or even uninteresting.

edit to add: And no sexism complaints about the use of the word "bitches". I had Sidney Crosby in mind when I chose that word.
Personally I think that's a bit harsh. Having seen them in interviews over the years, they both have a playful side. However, they both seem to be a bit aloof at times.

In my initial post, I started to use a Tiger Woods comparison but abandoned it because I didn't want someone to point out that they aren't Tiger Woods. But as you've brought up the likability point, Tiger Woods comes across as a bitch too. From a personality and background standoint, there are some eerie similarities between him and the Williams sisters. Tiger can be playful as well but also comes across as aloof -- he has separated "popular" from "likable."

For me personally, I like Tiger's laser-focus on being the best and wish Venus and Serena had that. But with USA tennis generally being viewed at its low point over the last 10 years, they have been the dominant force in women's tennis. But I don't think they generally get recognized for that. Perhaps it's because they don't take tennis as seriously as others in their sport do.

[kcchief19]

I would love to see Roddick pull off the upset tomorrow but I think he'll lose in straight sets.
I give Roddick a snowball's chance in hell. I'd like to be wrong not because I like Roddick but because I don't particularly care for Federer. Roddick is even worse than Venus and Serena. He had the potential to be a great one but does seem like a bitch -- he's got one grand slam and acts like he has 10.

[k0ruptr]

Grats to Serena, She really played well

[whomario]

He had the potential to be a great one but does seem like a bitch -- he's got one grand slam and acts like he has 10.

I don´t follow tennis much, so can´t really comment with much knowledge, but i really like seeing him play for some reason. He´s been in the Top 10 for 7 years now, i don´t really know if he could have been that much better realistically. It´s allways easy to acuse players of not working hard enough and all, but it´s not like he´s been off the map or anything.
I mean, there just happen to be 2 unbelievable great players at the very top and if it weren´t for Federer he would have had a couple more titles. I mean, of his 6 lost finals in Grand Slams or Masters Series 5 came against Federer.

As for tomorrow i would say he has a shot but not a good one. I mean, 2-18 is pretty clear as far as head-to-head goes ...

As for Federer : 21 straight Grand Slam Semi Finals (19 of those are finals) is just utterly insane ...


AS for the Williams Sisters : Imo a lot has to do with the fact they are so physichaly dominant. In peoples minds that took away from their tennis prowess, it´s always easier to underrate those type of players and overrate somewhat lesser athletes (as far as obvious athleticism goes). Kind of a David and Goliath thing ...

[JonInMiddleGA]

But as you've brought up the likability point, Tiger Woods comes across as a bitch too.

Now personally I can't stomach Tiger either, but I'll obviously concede I'm not the norm there apparently.

That said however, he doesn't strike me as perpetually angry or maybe just ill-tempered & disinterested. Petulant at times perhaps but not just perpetually foul. Ogg & Grogg on the other hand, usually make me think of a couple of ogres that live under a bridge somewhere and come out only to growl before going back to finish a meal of small children.

[sabotai]

Seems like when it comes to Grand Slams, Serena has pretty much owned Venus. They met 3 times in Grand Slam tournaments before 2002 with Venus winning all 3 (1 in a Final). Since then, Serena is 7-2 vs Venus in Grand Slam tournaments, 6-1 in Grand Slam Finals. (Since 2002, they are 3-3 in non Grand Slam events)

[kcchief19]

That said however, he doesn't strike me as perpetually angry or maybe just ill-tempered & disinterested. Petulant at times perhaps but not just perpetually foul. Ogg & Grogg on the other hand, usually make me think of a couple of ogres that live under a bridge somewhere and come out only to growl before going back to finish a meal of small children.
That I don't get at all. Venus and Serena don't strike me that way at all. They both seem to be fairly cheerful people. I generally get a chuckle or smile or two watching their interviews or acceptance speeches. They seem to have the same humility Tiger has, which I like.

I just can't see their personalities being what underrates them in the country where a d-bag like Alex Rodriguez or Manny Ramirez gets love.

[kcchief19]

Roddick has surprised me at times today. Impressive job of holding serve against Federer.

What didn't surprise me was the second set tie-breaker collapse. That was classic Roddick -- choking at the absolutely worst time possible. Four set points and he loses seven straight points? Ouch.

Roddick just broke Federer early in the fourth. He needs that because he can't beat Federer in a tiebreak. Be interesting to see these go to a fifth set the way Roddick is serving. I still think he will find a way to lose this but I generally like what I've seen from him today.

[Young Drachma]

I think it's been great to watch Venus and Serena grow from naive, immature, yet uber-talented young players, to crafty, more polished women. I get that they may have been unlikable at the outset of their careers (I think in large part due to their father), but as they've gotten older, I've become a genuine fan of theirs.

When you think about it, it's an amazing story. Two sisters grow up in Compton, hitting with each other on beat up tennis courts and coached by a guy who doesn't know a ton about tennis, grow up to be at the top of the game for a solid decade.

This.

[mauchow]

6-5 Federer up in the final set. Roddick serving though. . .

And I have to leave to go eat soon. Boo.

[Young Drachma]

8-8 in the 5th set. What an epic match. Thank goodness this isn't the US Open where ths would've been ended with a 5th set tiebreak.

[Young Drachma]

Both players have been holding serve for most of the 5th set. Roddick is up a break, which I think would give him a shot to close it out. He's serving gangbusters at the moment.

But nevermind. Federer closed those two breaks to go back to deuce.

[Young Drachma]

10-10 in the 5th set. After last year, this is crazy good. And I thought that'd be hard to top. Is Roger coming back to earth? Is his reign coming to an end?

[kcchief19]

Shattering records. Longest Wimbledon final in games, longest Wimbledon final fifth set, longest grand slam final. Only thing left is length in time -- the should be closing in on the 2008 Nadal/Federer record soon.

For all the drama of this match, it isn't quite as engrossing as last year's to me. I think it's that both have held serve so convincingly and the that there hasn't been a lot of break opportunities.

For Roddick to win, he's going to have to break Federer and hold serve. That's much hard to do that Federer, who will just have to break Roddick.

Andy has won me over today. He's earned it. Want to see him win this.

[Young Drachma]

Andy has won me over today. He's earned it. Want to see him win this.

+1

[Jas_lov]

Andy doesn't deserve it, Roger does and Roger will win. There is no way Andy will break Federer's serve.

[Logan]

13-13, Federer to serve. Wow.

And Jas of course is out of his fucking mind.

[Pumpy Tudors]

LOL at NBC pumping "Another One Bites the Dust" going into commercial

[Young Drachma]

Nothing like a ping-pong score in a Grand Slam final set.

[Jas_lov]

Andy Roddick is getting tired. It's just a matter of time before Federer wins and breaks Pete's record.

[Oilers9911]

Man, Federer has some classic matches at Wimbledon doesn't he? Holy crap. And Jas, if you don't think Federer is tire too, you're delusional.

[Jas_lov]

Uh oh. 0-30!

[Pumpy Tudors]

Uh oh. 0-30!
Uh oh. 40-30!

Do you ever feel embarrassed or no?

[cmp]

Man, Federer has some classic matches at Wimbledon doesn't he? Holy crap. And Jas, if you don't think Federer is tire too, you're delusional.

I think Jas is always delusional.

[kingfc22]

Roddick needs to get a 2nd wind here.

[Oilers9911]

Want Roger to win. But Jas, you look more foolish with every post.

[Young Drachma]

Match point Fed. Can't say that he wouldn't have earned it.

[Jas_lov]

FEDERER HAS WON! The most deserving player won.

[Young Drachma]

Roddick earned my respect today. He was facing extremely long odds and no one expected him to do what he managed to do today. So..yeah, he lost. But there's no shame in losing one of the best that's ever played the game.

[kingfc22]

FEDERER HAS WON! The most deserving player won.

What a tool.

[DaddyTorgo]

wow

[Young Drachma]

And I'm certainly no Roddick fan. But he comported himself extremely well.

[Jas_lov]

Roddick did play well. I don't know if anybody expected him to take it this far.

[Big Fo]

Great match, Roddick just couldn't take down a living legend.

[Young Drachma]

Nike commercial congratulating him. That's pretty cool.

[Oilers9911]

What a tool.

+100

[Pumpy Tudors]

Nike commercial congratulating him. That's pretty cool.
I liked the sentiment, but I actually thought the commercial itself was pretty tacky. But in any case, Federer certainly deserves to be congratulated.

[Young Drachma]

I liked the sentiment, but I actually thought the commercial itself was pretty tacky. But in any case, Federer certainly deserves to be congratulated.

Yeah, it was. But...they always do stuff like that. And since it was his sponsor and I know he and Tiger are particularly close..it was sorta neat given the people they used.

[Oilers9911]

I hope there is none of this, "his victory is tainted because Nadal wasn't there" crap. Don't see how it is Roger's fault that Nadal lost early in France or got injured. A Grand Slam title is still a Grand Slam title.

[Young Drachma]

I hope there is none of this, "his victory is tainted because Nadal wasn't there" crap. Don't see how it is Roger's fault that Nadal lost early in France or got injured. A Grand Slam title is still a Grand Slam title.

I think Andy pretty much dispensed with that notion with his play today.

[SackAttack]

Hadn't intended to stay at my friend's place last night, but I'm glad I ended up doing so. Wouldn't have been able to watch it from my apartment, but stumbled on it there around 8:30 or 9am and was able to watch from late 2nd round to completion. Incredible match.

[jbergey22]

Great match with 2 great competitors. I wanted Roddick to win but wasnt real disappointed with the result as Federer is as classy and as talented player I have ever seen. Roddick is playing at the top of his game this year and I would be surprised to see him make a lot of noise at the US Open as well.

and Jas I dont see how you can say one was more deserving than the other. They both played their a$$es off. The last game of the match was the only time Federer broke serve the entire match, correct?

Federer is a rarity in sports as no matter how great he has been its still difficult to cheer against him.

[kcchief19]

Here's my only complaint with anointing Federer as the greatest player of all time: he hasn't had any competition. Since Federer won his first slam title, here's the list of guys who have also won a slam: Andy Roddick, Gaston Gaudio, Marat Safin, Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal. Those guys have 10 slams together and Nadal has six of those. Five were also the French Open wins.

Between the time Sampras won his first and last slams, here the names of people won won a slam: Boris Becker, Jim Courier, Stefan Edberg, Sergi Bruguera, Andre Agassi, Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Gustavo Kuerten, Patrick Rafter, Marat Safin, and Lleyton Hewitt. Eight other guys won one.

Pick your poison. The top five guys with slams in the Sampras era combined to win 27 slams. Just take Agassi and Safin and you have two guys with as many slams as Federer's contemporaries. Courier and Agassi were
Sampras contemporaries. Courier won four slams alone between Sampras' first and second. Becker and Edberg were at the tail end of their careers but we're still winning when Sampras was at the top of the game. Sampras didn't have a Nadal; he had four or five. Plus he had about 10 Andy Roddicks and Novak Djokovics.

As good as Nadal is, he was dismissed by many as a clay court specialist even as late as two years ago. He is the only guy who has risen to challenge Roddick, and much of that challenge has only been in the last 18 months. But even with that Nadal is only Andre Agassi to Federer. There's no Courier, Edberg, Becker or Hewitt in the mix.

Federer is phenomenal. I absolutely marvel at his patience. He has an uncanny ability to wait until his opponent makes a move and that uses that against him. He may be the smartest tennis player I've ever seen play. He's Borg or Lendl-esque in that he simply doesn't make mistakes. That's how he beat Roddick -- he simply waited until Roddick made a mistake and then pounced.

I'll concede that one reason why there haven't been more challengers to Federer is that he's simply vanquished them because he's just that good. But one can make the case that the third best player in the world is Andy Roddick. Roddick over that time has largely been erratic, undisciplined and inconsistent. Roddick has been closer to a Kafelnikov, Moya or Thomas freakin' Muster than he has been to Jim Courier.

I wish for Federer's sack his contemporaries were better. For whatever reason, tennis is at a low tide right now as far as talent is concerned. I think Federer belongs in the same breath as Sampas, Laver and Borg. But I think he belongs on the rung just below.

[RainMaker]

I was pulling for Roddick. I know his career hasn't lived up to a lot of people's expectations, but this would have been a huge accomplishment. I felt real bad for him after the match as he wanted it so bad. But I also realize he is going to go home from this and bang the hell out of his wife.

Potentially NSFW:
http://www.ayushveda.com/mens-magazine/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/brooklyn-decker-in-underwear.jpg

[jbergey22]

I'll concede that one reason why there haven't been more challengers to Federer is that he's simply vanquished them because he's just that good. But one can make the case that the third best player in the world is Andy Roddick. Roddick over that time has largely been erratic, undisciplined and inconsistent. Roddick has been closer to a Kafelnikov, Moya or Thomas freakin' Muster than he has been to Jim Courier.

I wish for Federer's sack his contemporaries were better. For whatever reason, tennis is at a low tide right now as far as talent is concerned. I think Federer belongs in the same breath as Sampas, Laver and Borg. But I think he belongs on the rung just below.


Id agree that 4-5 years ago the talent level was down however the past couple of years there seems to be 4-5 guys ready to take that next step. Murray, Djokovic, Del Potro, and Tsonga appear in line as one of the guys that will be passed the torch and Nadal has taken his game up to the greatness of Federer. I dont think we will ever see a player as consistent as Federer again. He made 10 straight grand slam finals(winning 8 of them), he has made it to the semifinals in 21(and counting) straight grand slam events. He has won the US Open 5 straight years, 6 out of 7 at Wimbledon.

[Big Fo]

Djokovic and McEnroe were hilarious last night.

Djokovic post match interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=909SL15Vg8I)

[Super Ugly]

Awesome. :D

[Radii]

No discussion about the end of the Serena match?

[Radii]

For those that may not have seen it... Serena is down 1 set, down 6-5 in the second. Down 15-30 serving, she's called for a foot fault that may or may not have happened(I didn't see it live), which costs her a point to put her down 15-40. She completely flips out on the line judge. she'd gotten a warning earlier in the match for slamming her racket down. She gets a second warning for this outburst, which carries a penalty of a point... in this case, match point. Serena loses.

A vid from a euro broadcast:

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[cougarfreak]

According to reports, she threatened to shove the ball down the line judge's throat.

[cuervo72]

From the clips I saw last night on SC...yep, that's what she did. With a few extra expletives in there.

[MIJB#19]

A vid from a euro broadcast:Fwiw, that's from Eurosport, a Paris based tv station - comparable to ESPN - which broadcasts all over Europe with local hosts doing the talking.


Nothing to add to it really, it was clearly an outburst worthy of a warning. Terrible timing, but you can't be a good referee by letting it fly just because it's matchpoint...

[Young Drachma]

I saw it too via video. She didn't foot fault and apparently this ONLY happens to her at the US Open. But she needs to keep her cool. I dunno. I think there's a bright line between "you're a champion and you have to give them their respect." But at the same time, she crossed the line. She'd have gotten away with it if she'd just chilled out when the line judge (who I think is a swarmy big head) went to whine to the chair.

But when she went BACK at her again..well, then she was just asking for the penalty. She just did it at the wrong time, after she'd already given up a point because of the bad double fault call.

The real answer here is to have foot faults be subject to replay too. That'd solve the problem. But Serena crossed the line. I think the line judge should've sucked it up in a semi-final match at a freakin' Grand Slam and I can guarantee you she'll NEVER get to judge a match of that magnitude ever again (ball boys and girls get to come back every year if they want after they're hired from the initial test. At least, they used to. I dunno what the deal is with line judges) but...Serena went too far with it.

That said, it was pretty funny.

[miked]

The amazing thing is yesterday they were replaying a match from 91 where Connors was playing Krickstien. Connors at one point in the 2nd set called the chair ump a bum, a son of a bitch, and about 10 other things during a 5 minute outburst. Not a warning. Silly to let that decide a grand slam semifinal. That being said, she played mostly like poop and she wasn't the only one who had foot faults called against her.

And I'm not sure the line judge told on her, I believe the chair ump overheard some of it and summoned her over.

[Young Drachma]

The amazing thing is yesterday they were replaying a match from 91 where Connors was playing Krickstien. Connors at one point in the 2nd set called the chair ump a bum, a son of a bitch, and about 10 other things during a 5 minute outburst. Not a warning. Silly to let that decide a grand slam semifinal. That being said, she played mostly like poop and she wasn't the only one who had foot faults called against her.

And I'm not sure the line judge told on her, I believe the chair ump overheard some of it and summoned her over.

From the one video it looked like the line judge ran over to see the chair and maybe the chair told her if it happened again to let him know and then she went back at her, so she ran over there immediately without sitting down to complain about it again, as perhaps she was instructed.

I think chair umpires know how to handle this stuff a bit better, because maybe they're just trained for it, etc., and I know circuit events get all sorts of yahoos with bad tempers, but...since this is just a line judge -- a lay person, essentially -- I can see where their leash would be shorter.

But still. If nothing else, I guess she did what was right. But I hope she enjoyed it, because I doubt she'll get that close to a grand slam semi-final unless she's buying a ticket.

[Samdari]

From the one video it looked like the line judge ran over to see the chair and maybe the chair told her if it happened again to let him know and then she went back at her, so she ran over there immediately without sitting down to complain about it again, as perhaps she was instructed.

I think chair umpires know how to handle this stuff a bit better, because maybe they're just trained for it, etc., and I know circuit events get all sorts of yahoos with bad tempers, but...since this is just a line judge -- a lay person, essentially -- I can see where their leash would be shorter.

But still. If nothing else, I guess she did what was right. But I hope she enjoyed it, because I doubt she'll get that close to a grand slam semi-final unless she's buying a ticket.

WTF did the line judge do wrong? A player was threatening her. Not just verbally but she was waving her racket towards her like it was a weapon. The penalty was more than justified. Anyone doing that in any team sport would not only have been thrown out, but suspended for future games.

The video of the call itself is not exactly definitive, but it sure looks like a bad call. But, when you play sports, bad calls go against you. You cannot do what Serena did to the officials.

[Big Fo]

At least Serena won the doubles.

Federer is having his way with Delpo so far, I was hoping this would at least be close.

[Lathum]

Federer showing a bit of an ugly side and dropping an unedited 4 letter word on national TV.

[Big Fo]

Just trying to be like his boy Tiger.

Double fault from Del Potro gives Fed the break and the third set.

edit: This is getting good now, Del Potro up a break in the fourth set.

[PilotMan]

heckuva match right now.

[Big Fo]

Del Potro was awesome in the last two sets. I've never watched much tennis before but Wimbledon and the US Open this year were really fun to watch. I guess it's true for any sport at the top level but it's astounding what these guys can pull off.

[Young Drachma]

Impressive job by Del Potro. I mean, that's a big deal. But it's nice to know Federer is beatable by someone other than Nadal these days. Way to man up.

Congrats to the Williams sisters for their doubles title, too. That's 10-0 in Grand Slam doubles finals. That's insane.