Sports League Protocol Question

[Pyser]

Hey all. Was hoping you could weigh in on this.

I'm participating in a soccer league in a 14 game season. We have played 11 games, and have 3 left.

This week, the last place team dropped out of the league. Each team plays each other twice, and this particular team was 0-11, with 5 goals for, 71 against.

The problem, though, is the first tie-breaker in the league is goal differential. So while some teams were able to play this team twice, and wrack up a combined 18-0 score, others only get to play them once.

Now that they have dropped out, a 1-0 score will be attributed to the games the team forfeits, one of which, of course, is against my team.

So my question is, what is the best way for the league to handle this fairly? Or, are they under no obligation to do anything, count the games as forfeits, and everyone moves on?

Thanks for your help. Interested to see what unbiased people think of the situation.

[DaddyTorgo]

i'd remove the GD from that team altogether and assign all games against that team as 1-0 wins throughout the season. effectively neutralize them.

barring that, you remove all W-L against them altogether. it's the only fair way to go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

DT probably has about as good an idea as anyone is going to come up with I think.

[Oilers9911]

Agreed. Take all that team's games from the beginning and make them 1-0 scored across the board.

[Lathum]

What DT said

[stevew]

Or use the score vs them for the 2nd game. So if you won 8-2 the first time, count the second forfeit as 8-2 as well.

[bhlloy]

DT is right - all games vs that team have to be forfeited to the same score. This is pretty standard stuff and I can't think of another fair way to do it.

[RomaGoth]

i'd remove the GD from that team altogether and assign all games against that team as 1-0 wins throughout the season. effectively neutralize them.

barring that, you remove all W-L against them altogether. it's the only fair way to go.

Either of these options would work. I would actually go with the latter, but either will work.

[fantom1979]

DT is right on here, but overall goal differential is a pretty dumb first tie breaker. Wouldn't head to head be the first tie breaker?

[Pyser]

i agree with what everyone else said, and proposed the 1-0 change to the league yesterday

they said they refuse to alter the score of games already played and we are SOL

they might change the tiebreaker for next season, but that obviously doesnt help us.

but thank for confirming my suspicions

[RainMaker]

I was going to say that you could average the goal differential of their games and use that, but DT's idea is brilliant.

[bhlloy]

fantom - goal difference is used in most (all?) pro soccer leagues, just the way it is done. Maybe because you only play a team twice all year?

[DaddyTorgo]

if they're being douches about it then i say fuck them and you just get the other teams that didn't get to play them twice to band together with you and you all either demand it or proceed to walk out.

that's fucking stupid.

[stevew]

Yep. Fuck them.

I'd even go as far as to tank a game if it is meaningless to you. But would keep a head hancho's team out of the playoffs. Or 1-0 forfeit a game that someone needs to win by a lot.

Redic.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, I would pull my team out of a league that made a ridiculous decision like this. Out of interest is the organizers team in the league and benefiting from this decision at all, or are they just that damn incompetent that they can't see the problem here?

[RomaGoth]

if they're being douches about it then i say fuck them and you just get the other teams that didn't get to play them twice to band together with you and you all either demand it or proceed to walk out.

that's fucking stupid.

Yep. Fuck them.

I'd even go as far as to tank a game if it is meaningless to you. But would keep a head hancho's team out of the playoffs. Or 1-0 forfeit a game that someone needs to win by a lot.

Redic.

Yeah, I would pull my team out of a league that made a ridiculous decision like this. Out of interest is the organizers team in the league and benefiting from this decision at all, or are they just that damn incompetent that they can't see the problem here?

What they said.

[Izulde]

What they said.

Co-signed.

[Pyser]

id quit if i had another league to go to, but los angeles doesnt have many options. at all

cant tank. 1 point out of the playoffs with 3 to play

they really dont seem to see this as a huge problem. i dont know why. (and no, the organizers are not also on a team themselves)

[DaddyTorgo]

well explain to them that it is a huge problem, and your solution does nothing other than create a solution that is equally fair to all teams and if they don't like it they can go fuck themselves

[bhlloy]

That's funny didn't see your location. Is this the LA parks and rec league that plays at Griffith Park, Salesian HS and another couple of locations? I'm probably putting a team together to play in the mens 11v11 league for next summer, let's hope they change it by then.

I play on 4 different teams in the Pasadena/Duarte leagues, but they are all 7v7 with one 11v11 coed league.

[kcchief19]

i agree with what everyone else said, and proposed the 1-0 change to the league yesterday

they said they refuse to alter the score of games already played and we are SOL

they might change the tiebreaker for next season, but that obviously doesnt help us.

but thank for confirming my suspicions
Obviously I'm in the minority on this board but I'm with the league. You don't change the rules midway through the game. Before the season, you knew that goal differential was the tie breaker and you knew forfeits were possible and what the score of forfeit would be.

Taking your ball and going home because the rules aren't changed after the fact to help you would be the quitter's way out. It's as much your fault as the league's fault for agreeing to these rules in the first place.

For as capitalistic and democratic as FOFC can be, sometimes you all turn into a bunch of socialist commies whne it comes to sports. ;)

[Mustang]

Obviously I'm in the minority on this board but I'm with the league. You don't change the rules midway through the game. Before the season, you knew that goal differential was the tie breaker and you knew forfeits were possible and what the score of forfeit would be.

Taking your ball and going home because the rules aren't changed after the fact to help you would be the quitter's way out. It's as much your fault as the league's fault for agreeing to these rules in the first place.

For as capitalistic and democratic as FOFC can be, sometimes you all turn into a bunch of socialist commies whne it comes to sports. ;)

+1

The rules are out there and spell out this case.

They need to change though for next season as point differential for the #1 tie breaker is pretty stupid.

[Ryan S]

fantom - goal difference is used in most (all?) pro soccer leagues, just the way it is done.

Spain has the only league I can think of that does not use goal difference as the first tie breaker. I think La Liga uses goal difference in head to head matchups to break ties.

Goal difference is usually the first tiebreaker as it encourages attacking play.

[Mustang]

Goal difference is usually the first tiebreaker as it encourages attacking play.

Guess I was wrong then. Still can't change the rules during the season though.

[DaddyTorgo]

why not? if the effect of the rule change is to treat all teams equally instead of penalizing some teams for things outside of their control then why the fuck not?

[larrymcg421]

This sucks for the teams involved, but I agree that if the rules (that everyone agreed to play by) is that a forfeit = 1-0 score, then you can't change the rules midway through the season. I'm frankly surprised that so many people are okay with that.

DT's proposal makes perfect sense, but there is no way it is fair until the start of next season. The rule is in place and has to be followed.

[molson]

The real douches are the team that dropped out just because they suck.

Maybe the tiebreaker won't matter - with 14 games, there's a good chance of that.

[DaddyTorgo]

This sucks for the teams involved, but I agree that if the rules (that everyone agreed to play by) is that a forfeit = 1-0 score, then you can't change the rules midway through the season. I'm frankly surprised that so many people are okay with that.

DT's proposal makes perfect sense, but there is no way it is fair until the start of next season. The rule is in place and has to be followed.:confused:

[larrymcg421]

And did everyone score the same against this team? If team A had a +10 differential in two games against the team, but team B had a +20 differential against them, how is this proposed change fair to team B if they end up in a tiebreaker with team A?

[larrymcg421]

:confused:

Maybe this guy can explain it to you:

hey that's the rules...you win some and you lose some. The calls even out over the course of games...the NFL has decided to protect the QB's.

[DaddyTorgo]

well played

[Pyser]

That's funny didn't see your location. Is this the LA parks and rec league that plays at Griffith Park, Salesian HS and another couple of locations? I'm probably putting a team together to play in the mens 11v11 league for next summer, let's hope they change it by then.

I play on 4 different teams in the Pasadena/Duarte leagues, but they are all 7v7 with one 11v11 coed league.

yeah, thats the league. PM me, im interested in getting my team in other leagues in the off season. i can give you a rundown of the league, too. winter league starts in jan.

hopefully it doesnt come down to the tiebreaker and its all forgotten. with 3 to play we are 1 point back of 2nd, top 2 make the playoffs. so we need help to get in anyway, and i dont see how we'd end up tied. but stranger things have happened.

i wouldnt expect the rules to change. at the last league meeting people voted to reduce the playoffs from the top 4 teams to the top 2, because too many 4 seeds beat 1 seeds in the playoffs, and people complained it wasnt fair. when i argues "thats sports", i was booed. BOOED!

[kcchief19]

why not? if the effect of the rule change is to treat all teams equally instead of penalizing some teams for things outside of their control then why the fuck not?
That's the thing -- you're not treating all teams equally. The teams who beat the team the most are being penalized. Somebody beat this team 18-0 and suddenly it doesn't count because of something outside their control? That doesn't compute.

[Chief Rum]

I'm not saying I would do it, and I have no experience actually playing soccer. So if beginners can't play and try to work their way into playing good soccer, I couldn't do it.

But if I could do that, I would be interested in hooking up with either Pyser or bhlloy for a chance to play on their teams.

[CU Tiger]

any chance rosters are not fixed?

if so get 11 friends to field their team...and just make a mockery of the rule.

Score 50

[bhlloy]

CR - if I do ever end up putting a team together I will keep you in mind, if you have a decent/good fitness level then there will always be a spot for you in a league that has free subs and you can learn as you go along.

[Chief Rum]

CR - if I do ever end up putting a team together I will keep you in mind, if you have a decent/good fitness level then there will always be a spot for you in a league that has free subs and you can learn as you go along.

Cool! Fitness shouldn't be an issue, as I generally put in about 10 miles a day running, and have been contemplating advancing my training, and also competing in long distance races.

[Oilers9911]

That's the thing -- you're not treating all teams equally. The teams who beat the team the most are being penalized. Somebody beat this team 18-0 and suddenly it doesn't count because of something outside their control? That doesn't compute.

But how is it in control of the teams that don't get to play that team again? They are being forced a 1-0 win by something that is our of THEIR control.

[larrymcg421]

But how is it in control of the teams that don't get to play that team again? They are being forced a 1-0 win by something that is our of THEIR control.

It wasn't out of their control because they agreed to the rules that state a forfeit gives you a 1-0 victory.

[bhlloy]

I think there is a big difference between forfeiting games and actually quitting the league. In the quitting the league situation it should be as if the team was never in the league, all games should be null and void or forfeited by the same score so there is no advantage to anyone.

And no it's not 100% fair to the teams that won by a larger score in the games that were played, but it's a hell of a lot more fair than forcing an arbitrary low score forfeit on a team that could have reasonably expected to boost their goal difference by a lot if the game had actually been played. Just my opinion.

18-0 > 14-0 (or whatever the average score against this team is)
18-0 >>>>>> 1-0

I guess I quite like the idea that you just take the score from game 1 and apply that to the second forfeited game, but still some people are going to bitch about that (we were missing people the first time, we would have beaten them by much more this time etc....)

[larrymcg421]

I think there is a big difference between forfeiting games and actually quitting the league. In the quitting the league situation it should be as if the team was never in the league, all games should be null and void or forfeited by the same score so there is no advantage to anyone.

Not unless the rules cover that separate from normal forfeits.

And no it's not 100% fair to the teams that won by a larger score in the games that were played, but it's a hell of a lot more fair than forcing an arbitrary low score forfeit on a team that could have reasonably expected to boost their goal difference by a lot if the game had actually been played. Just my opinion.

That's entirely fair because it is what the rules stipulate. I think the rule is stupid, but it's there. I mean, what if this same team just didn't show up for three weeks, effectively screwing three teams on goal differential, but then played the rest of their games? Wouldn't that be just as unfair to those three teams? Do you change the rules then?


18-0 > 14-0 (or whatever the average score against this team is)
18-0 >>>>>> 1-0

I guess I quite like the idea that you just take the score from game 1 and apply that to the second forfeited game, but still some people are going to bitch about that (we were missing people the first time, we would have beaten them by much more this time etc....)

I like that idea, too. I strongly suggest it be implemented for the next season. But changing rules midseason because you don't like how the rules have turned out in some teams favor is nothing less than cheating, just as I argued here. (http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=63591)

[bhlloy]

All good points. I guess it comes down to what is in the rules. If it's clear "a team quitting the league will forfeit their remaining games" then yeah, I'd have to suck it up and consider pulling my team out at the end of the year if they don't consider changing it, because it's a BS rule.

If there is a grey area or there is nothing in the rules about what happens when a team flat out quits, I'm still fighting to get it changed now if it's going to screw my team over.

And you make another good point about what happens if the team just doesn't show up vs quits. In some other leagues the forfeit score is a bit higher (3-0) but again, that's not going to help in a situation where a team usually loses by 10+ and it's even worse if a good team forfeits. This happens a lot in the rec leagues I play in and there's no good solution. In most of the leagues I play in the forfeiting team pays a $50 fine, but that goes to the league and doesn't really help the team that got 20 people out of bed at 7am on a Sunday morning to show up to the field and then might end up getting screwed on goal differential to boot. I guess this might just be a risk inherent in rec leagues, but I'd definitely be in favor of a bigger fine and some of the fine going towards the other teams league fees.

[Oilers9911]

How is it cheating if it is the league that changes the rules? It's not like Pyser is the commish and is making these changes. The league has said they are not changing anything as is their right, but if they DID make a change in the middle of the season then in no way is that cheating. Nobody is saying to change the rules so that Pyser's team gets an advantage but as it stands now they are getting screwed. With any luck it works itself out without requiring the tie breaker.

[Pyser]

well, semi-good news

the first place team lost this weekend, so there is a tie at 23 points between 2 teams...and we are in 3rd at 22 points. but the 2 first place teams play next week. so if we win our last 2 games, we make the playoffs, no matter what

so we cant blame anything on the league, sadly, if it all goes to shit