Question for you IT/Computer Related professionals

[cubboyroy1826]

I posted this in another thread but figured i would give it a home of it's own.

Okay guys after sitting down with the local community college computer science department i am even more confused. I had been working on finishing my A.S. degree but after meeting with one of the department heads she gave us some info on their AAS in network admin (along with some other focuses like Web and programming). After doing some more research it appears that the AAS does not necessarily transfer in full to a four year degree.

My question is for those that know, what Illinois schools have good computer degrees? What does an AAS degree mean for me when i am out in the working world trying to get a job? Does the Cisco certification mean much for me? I will admit i am very confused of course because looking at the AAS is not the same as trying to figure out the AS transferring to a 4 year college. What kinds of questions should i be sking the community college as well as the four year college i would transfer to? I live very close to Northern Illinois University but was advised that Northerns Computer programs are very theoretical (not sure what she meant by this).

[Mustang]

How much of it will transfer? If you are only losing a few credits, but you are saving money taking alot of the basics, might be worth it. I did a 2+2 program in Virginia where all of my associates degree credits transferred to the college I went too so, I saved money on the basics and then took all the major related stuff at the college I attended.

I could be wrong on the theory stuff, but I think it is just the analysis/design of computer programs as opposed to using the language. (If that makes sense)

[Airhog]

my AAS degree would only transfer about 15 credit hours. Now this is taking an AAS in general electronics, and applying it to a degree in comp sci or engineering.

My wifes AAS in psychology was better, but she still wasted a lot of time pursuing her AAS.

I would suggest that if you are very interested in getting a BS, then grab the course equivalency from the school you want to transfer to, and only take classes that will transfer.

Just keep this in mind, that no matter how talented you are, you will be denied certain job opportunities. There are some companies in this world, that will chuck your resume in the trash if you don't have a BS, no matter how much experience you have. Although, truth be told, some of those places you probably wouldn't even want to work for.

[RomaGoth]

Does the Cisco certification mean much for me?

Yes. A Cisco cert will eventually get you a six figure income if you are good at it and can back it up with some experience, and of course a 4-year degree is nice to go along with it.

Cisco is very much in demand.

[Alan T]

Yes. A Cisco cert will eventually get you a six figure income if you are good at it and can back it up with some experience, and of course a 4-year degree is nice to go along with it.

Cisco is very much in demand.


Only certain Cisco ceritifcations are really "blank checks" so to speak. The entry level certifications are fairly trivial with basic network knowledge. I know our first level network group has a decent number of employees with CCNA type cisco certifications, but they are in very much what would be an entry level job.

Even the CCNP that I have is not really that special to be honest, but I have 13 years of experience which helps me out at least. The Cisco Certification that really is the sought after one is the CCIE.

[cubboyroy1826]

Okay so say i get a two year AAS that does have the 2+2 transfer option for a couple of Illinois schools does the two year degree offer enough to get started in the field getting experience or am i better off waiting until i get the four year degree?

I already have my gen ed requirements out of the way to get my AS so i could take electives that fit within the AS and AAS degrees so that i get my AS first. I know this is probably confusing to most but i am trying not to waste my time taking classes i really do not need. Thanks for those of you who have responded i really appreciate it.

[DanGarion]

It's all about the http://www.isc2.org/ stuff! Security is where it's at!

[weegeebored]

I agree with Airhog and Alan. Some jobs will require a BA or BS, and the preferred field will obviously be in computer science. But frankly, going to a good training school to get certs is the way to go to get your resume seen as an AA or AAS isn't really all that strong. It's great to have both as that will open up more opportunities, but the Bachelor's will not be required for many entry-level jobs. A CompTIA A+ cert will get your resume seen for jobs like Help Desk/Desktop support.

The trick to to find a good training school with instructors that know what they are talking about. And even then, experience will be your best teacher. Get an A+ cert, know the real-world computer stuff, and take a desktop support job to get your foot in the door. Learn as much as you can even if you hate the job (which you just might). A former student of mine (yes, I am an IT trainer/instructor) was working help desk for his company making $38K. The sys admin quit, and he had shown enough interest in the network (and was taking an MCSE class) that they gave him the job making $60K. And truthfully, he was only an ok student, but he was really interested in Windows administration. It must have showed to the important people at his job.

Lots of ways to go in IT -- security as was mentioned, and also db administration. Go for what you like and be good at it.

[RomaGoth]

I agree with Airhog and Alan. Some jobs will require a BA or BS, and the preferred field will obviously be in computer science. But frankly, going to a good training school to get certs is the way to go to get your resume seen as an AA or AAS isn't really all that strong. It's great to have both as that will open up more opportunities, but the Bachelor's will not be required for many entry-level jobs. A CompTIA A+ cert will get your resume seen for jobs like Help Desk/Desktop support.

The trick to to find a good training school with instructors that know what they are talking about. And even then, experience will be your best teacher. Get an A+ cert, know the real-world computer stuff, and take a desktop support job to get your foot in the door. Learn as much as you can even if you hate the job (which you just might). A former student of mine (yes, I am an IT trainer/instructor) was working help desk for his company making $38K. The sys admin quit, and he had shown enough interest in the network (and was taking an MCSE class) that they gave him the job making $60K. And truthfully, he was only an ok student, but he was really interested in Windows administration. It must have showed to the important people at his job.

Lots of ways to go in IT -- security as was mentioned, and also db administration. Go for what you like and be good at it.

FWIW, an A+ cert is rather limited in its usefulness. I advise going for Network + and Server + at the minimum, then Security + and Microsoft Certifications as well.

[RomaGoth]

It's all about the http://www.isc2.org/ stuff! Security is where it's at!

Yep. I love it!

[wade moore]

As a long-time Help Desk Manager, I laugh at the A+ Certification. Honestly - practical knowledge/experience that you can demonstrate in an interview is far more valuable.

I do agree that desktop support can be a good foot in though.

[cubboyroy1826]

Okay thanks again guys. So lets say i get the four year degree do i then start about the same place in the working world?

Can someone please elaborate on the ISC2 link?

Here is the blurb from the Cisco AAS program:

As the technical systems field grows, so does the need for programmers and network administrators. As part of its network and systems
administrator program, Kishwaukee College offers an AAS degree option that specializes in CISCO. Technology is constantly evolving
and students who enroll in the CISCO program can be assured they are in a high-quality program that gives each student training in
cutting edge technologies to ensure long-term success.
The CIS instructors at Kishwaukee College are experienced professionals who know that the best network education includes both logic
and hands-on training and have crafted a curriculum based on the desire of employers. Students in the CIS program at Kishwaukee
College are trained in state-of-the-art facilities featuring up-to-date hardware to prepare students for a seamless transition into the
workforce. In addition, student work on real world classroom projects that they will encounter in their careers. Hands-on work in the
classroom makes Kishwaukee College CIS graduates among the best prepared in their field.

The CIS department has established several formal 2 + 2 Programs with four year institutions, with more agreements pending. A 2 + 2
Program is for students interested in continuing their education at a four-year institution and allows students to complete the foundation
CIS courses required at the participating college or university. Students interested in the 2 + 2 Program should discuss their career goals
and educational plans with a CIS faculty advisor.

Here is the course plan:

Fall semester
CIS 140 Networking Fundamentals (4)
CIS 145 Cisco Networking I (4)
ELE 101 Industrial Electricity (3)
ENG 103 Composition I OR
ENG 109 Introduction to Technical Report Writing (3)
MAT 150 College Algebra OR
MAT 210 Finite Mathematics (3)

Spring Semester
CIS 142 PC Repair and Configuration (3)
CIS 146 Cisco Networking II (4)
SPE 100 Fundamentals of Speech (3)
Humanities Elective (3)
Social Science Elective (3)

Fall semester
CIS 110 Visual Basic Programming OR
CIS 150 C++ Programming I OR
CIS 160 Java Programming I (3)
CIS 147 Cisco Networking III (4)
CIS 170 Introduction to UNIX OR
CIS 182 Windows Server Fundamentals I (3)
Computer Information Systems Elective (2)

Spring semester
CIS 123 Management Information Systems (3)
CIS 148 Cisco Networking IV (4)
CIS 236 CIS Project OR
CIS 296 CIS Internship (3)
CIS 270 Fundamentals of Linux Administration OR
CIS 282 Windows Server II Networking (3)
Computer Information Electives (3)


Electives:
CIS 110 Visual Basic Programming (3)
CIS 121 Animation-Flash (2)
CIS 122 Web Site Creation Software (2)
CIS 150 C++ Programming I (3)
CIS 182 Windows Server Fundamentals I (3)
CIS 183 Novell Fundamentals and Networking (3)
CIS 210 Visual Basic Programming II (3)
CIS 238 Systems Analysis and Design (3)
CIS 250 C++ Programming II (3)
CIS 270 Fundamentals of Linux (3)
CIS 282 Windows Server II Networking (3)
CIS 283 Network Security+ (3)
Other relevant courses with consent of department

[PackerFanatic]

As a long-time Help Desk Manager, I laugh at the A+ Certification. Honestly - practical knowledge/experience that you can demonstrate in an interview is far more valuable.

I do agree that desktop support can be a good foot in though.

I took an A+ course in high school, but never took the test. Glad I didn't waste the money on it :)

[weegeebored]

As a long-time Help Desk Manager, I laugh at the A+ Certification. Honestly - practical knowledge/experience that you can demonstrate in an interview is far more valuable.

I do agree that desktop support can be a good foot in though.You might laugh. But if you are not doing the initial interviewing then HR is doing a resume search looking for IT buzzwords. An experienced person with no certs may not even get looked at because "A+" or "MCP" or whatever didn't come up in the search. Plus, experienced people are more expensive even if they are more qualified and most companies don't want to pay especially at the help desk level.

All I said was that certs get your resume looked at. I did not say that it would get you a job. I've seen and trained both "experienced" people and people certified up the yin-yang not know squat about IT.

[Galaril]

It's all about the http://www.isc2.org/ stuff! Security is where it's at!

Best advice here. I got my Masters in Information Security and have my CISSP and CISM (also the GIAC and CCSP). Whatever you choose for your AA (recommend network) definitely look at longterm the Security field great pay and opportunities abound.

[wade moore]

You might laugh. But if you are not doing the initial interviewing then HR is doing a resume search looking for IT buzzwords. An experienced person with no certs may not even get looked at because "A+" or "MCP" or whatever didn't come up in the search. Plus, experienced people are more expensive even if they are more qualified and most companies don't want to pay especially at the help desk level.

All I said was that certs get your resume looked at. I did not say that it would get you a job. I've seen and trained both "experienced" people and people certified up the yin-yang not know squat about IT.

I'd have a talk with your HR department if that's what they're doing. Fortunately, I've never run into a situation like that.

[Galaril]

Yeah, certs and degrees do matter at least when I am hiring folks on my teams.

[weegeebored]

It happens more than you might think. Here is a quote from an article on JavaWorld.com:We already know that HR pros and recruiters really love to see technology certifications (http://www.javaworld.com/community/node/3034) (bold added), especially from the vendor of the technologies. If you have a choice (which I think generally means, "an existing employer who'll pay for it," right?) go for certification from the vendor. "Brainbench certification is nice and better than no certification, but not as good as a certification from the technology vendor themselves," advises Sutherland.
I would think that HR has to do that. How in the world are they going to sift through 300+ resumes for an IT job? My understanding is that the buzzword resumes get put in the "look closer at" pile, and the others...well...probably the "not going to waste my time" pile.

I should add that I think that both piles are going to contain good candidates, but you just have to be in the right pile to give yourself an edge.

[weegeebored]

Best advice here. I got my Masters in Information Security and have my CISSP and CISM (also the GIAC and CCSP). Whatever you choose for your AA (recommend network) definitely look at longterm the Security field great pay and opportunities abound.I would love to know more about the path that you took certification-wise. I agree about the security field and am very interested in moving in that direction. I have a friend that is also a CISSP and he told me that he would be my sponsor. What kind of training materials, or did you just use your on-the-job expertise?

[Daimyo]

Nothing is fool proof, its all about playing the odds. Having a specific cert or degree will never guarantee you an interview, but it will increase your odds of getting one. Same goes for experience or anything else.

Therefore, the importance of any one thing really depends on the strength of all your other things (i.e. diminishing returns). If you have a ton of great experience and write a great cover letter the certs won't be that important if at all. However, if you don't have the experience they could be critical and you should do as much as you can.

Since it sounds like you don't have a lot of experience you need to maximize your degree and certs within reason. You should also do whatever you can to get some related experience even if its doing a project pro-bono for a non-profit. Also IMO for people without experience the cover letter is extremely critical.

[Galaril]

I would love to know more about the path that you took certification-wise. I agree about the security field and am very interested in moving in that direction. I have a friend that is also a CISSP and he told me that he would be my sponsor. What kind of training materials, or did you just use your on-the-job expertise?

Actually at the time I got my CISSP I was working for one of the Big 4 Accounting Firms as an IT Security Consultant and that particular firm (D&T) had a week long prep course they paid for me to go to. It probably was not neccessary for me to pass the exam with my experience and Master of Science degree but it was a nice refresher with the exam right after the course on the following Saturday. The course was taught by one of the writers of the ISC2 Gold study book which i would recommend for studing with. it was Berte, and Shon Harris book. I already had my CCSP and GIAC SANS. Recently I got my CISM and am now looking at going for one of the advanced CISSP concentrations either CISSP-ISMP or CISSP-ISAP. Good luck in your endeavors and feel free to drop me a PM for an other recommend ations.

[Galaril]

Nothing is fool proof, its all about playing the odds. Having a specific cert or degree will never guarantee you an interview, but it will increase your odds of getting one. Same goes for experience or anything else.

Therefore, the importance of any one thing really depends on the strength of all your other things (i.e. diminishing returns). If you have a ton of great experience and write a great cover letter the certs won't be that important if at all. However, if you don't have the experience they could be critical and you should do as much as you can.

Since it sounds like you don't have a lot of experience you need to maximize your degree and certs within reason. You should also do whatever you can to get some related experience even if its doing a project pro-bono for a non-profit. Also IMO for people without experience the cover letter is extremely critical.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[cubboyroy1826]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys.

[Daimyo]

I would love to know more about the path that you took certification-wise. I agree about the security field and am very interested in moving in that direction. I have a friend that is also a CISSP and he told me that he would be my sponsor. What kind of training materials, or did you just use your on-the-job expertise?
I did the CISSP a few years back. In my case I bought a book (I believe by Sybex) and read through it thoroughly. At the time I already had about five years professional experience with at least three focused on security so I absorbed the material pretty quickly. The only thing I remember really having to memorize was all the cryptography stuff.

The thing to keep in mind with the CISSP is that it is not a deep exam at all, but it is extremely broad. You don't have to be an expert in any specific area of infosec to pass, just know a bit across a wide range of topics.

The GIAC/SANS certs are ridiculously easy from my experience, but I think they require you to actually attend a SANS conference to be eligible to take them (or if you don't attend pay a lot more for the exam). I had the GSEC and IDS one, but I just let it expire as I thought they were a bit of a joke.

I'd almost say go for Security+ first (never did it, but the material looks solid I think), see how that goes and then do the CISSP.

[Alan T]

From my experience I don't really know anyone personally that even cares about GIAC/SANS. For most of our security auditing group CISSP is required, but it was pretty easy I felt when I did it a while back. I never renewed mine as it was not really that useful for me personally (I'm a network engineer). If you are interested in the security side however, I absolutely would encourage looking at CISSP

[Galaril]

From my experience I don't really know anyone personally that even cares about GIAC/SANS. For most of our security auditing group CISSP is required, but it was pretty easy I felt when I did it a while back. I never renewed mine as it was not really that useful for me personally (I'm a network engineer). If you are interested in the security side however, I absolutely would encourage looking at CISSP

Yes, I agree Alan the Sans certs have really lost what edge they had 4-5 years ago. Thew two I had GSEC which was pretty easy and GCIH I also let expire a year ago. The CISSP, CISA (for IT Auditors), Cisco certs, not sure about Security + are all good. In the end education certs are important but experience is also an important consideration.